00:00:43 <zzo38> The initial shift state is 0, where 4 is a temporary shift to state 1, and 5 is a temporary shift to state 2. In state 1 or 2, the 4 and 5 are permanent shifts; the same code is permanent to its own state and the other one is to state 0. Code 0 is always a space. Codes 6-31 meanings depend on the shift state; in state 2, code 6 is a ASCII escape and is followed by two more 5-bit codes.
00:02:45 <zzo38> Infocom never used permanent shifts. Their documentation says to use a permanent shift if there are two characters from the same shift state, but that tends to be worse than not using permanent shifts at all.
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03:17:58 <zzo38> shachaf: Does that explain what you wanted to know?
03:29:53 <zzo38> ("Johansen" does refer to oerjan, because they helped me with it.)
03:36:13 <shachaf> Well, I thought it was either oerjan or Ørjan.
03:40:04 <oerjan> can be hard to tell sometimes.
03:40:29 <oerjan> it's definitely not Pål Ørjan, he'd be more likely to cooperate with kmc.
03:54:18 <oerjan> which apparently cannot be underscored enough.
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05:18:12 <oren> baba is you is a great game!
05:19:49 <shachaf> That's what I've been saying!
05:21:18 <zzo38> Maybe later after Free Hero Mesh is enough that it is possible to try to use it, then you can see if you are able to make anything with it that is similar to Baba Is You, or if maybe not.
05:27:01 <shachaf> Can you use Free Hero Mesh to make The Revenge of Megazeux?
05:27:54 <kmc> some of the BIY levels are really hard ;__;
05:29:43 <zzo38> What would be Revenge of Megazeux? If it is like MegaZeux, then probably not; it doesn't meet the requirements: that it is played on a rectangular grid of objects (there may be multiple objects at a location), with the state changing only deterministically by a function from the current state and key code to either the new state or a win or loss.
05:30:22 <shachaf> I think it's like Megazeux or maybe like the revenge of Megaboz
05:30:37 <shachaf> Do you like The Revenge of Megaboz?
05:31:25 <zzo38> I don't know of Revenge of Megaboz. MegaZeux is played on a rectangular grid, but does not use the required state changing function.
05:32:15 <shachaf> The Revenge of Megaboz is also called Zork Zero.
05:32:17 <zzo38> O, I found Revenge of Megaboz; it is Zork Zero: The Revenge of Megaboz, it look like.
05:34:04 <zzo38> There is a screenshot, I can see they have a compass at the top like I did in xyzabcde2 also (although mine is made only from text)
05:34:11 <shachaf> Do you like _Spider and Web_?
05:35:37 <zzo38> I have played before but do not remember all of them now
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06:33:11 <zzo38> Do you know if awk specifies the order of evaluation of an expression?
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09:39:38 <fizzie> oerjan: Re underscores, usually I just restart it to get rid of them, but now I'm afraid it would no longer work, because some of the Ruby things it uses had stopped working.
09:40:40 <fizzie> I'm hoping I'll finish the reimplantation before it goes down next time, though that doesn't feel all that likely.
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10:05:46 <fizzie> ...reimplantation is probably something slightly different than what I meant.
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17:35:23 <Sgeo_> `slist MEAT or CANDY?
17:35:24 <HackEso> slist MEAT or CANDY?: Taneb atriq Ngevd nvd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
17:39:10 <b_jonas> `learn A circle has no end
17:39:12 <HackEso> Learned 'circle': A circle has no end
17:39:14 <b_jonas> `learn A circle has no end.
17:39:16 <HackEso> Relearned 'circle': A circle has no end.
17:39:47 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot, do you plan to visit your relatives on Easter?
17:39:48 <fungot> b_jonas: man. it is just another waste. do you like it.
17:43:41 <kmc> yesterday I heard Finland on amateur radio.
17:43:47 <kmc> but I didn't manage to get a contact
17:43:56 <kmc> I did get a 10,000 km contact to eastern Russia though
17:44:42 <b_jonas> is this still in the 200 MhZ frequency band?
17:52:52 <kmc> last night I was on 7.074, 10.136, and 14.074 MHz
17:53:13 <kmc> which are the standard frequencies for the FT8 digital protocol on 40, 30, and 20 meter bands respectively
17:57:19 <kmc> the distance record for VHF is short of that, and getting anywhere close would require extremely favorable atmospheric conditions and good equipment http://www.arrl.org/files/file/WA50-Standings/Distance_Records_10Dec2018.pdf
17:57:41 <kmc> whereas on HF, i was able to do this with a pretty basic transciever and a crappy wire antenna
17:58:54 <kmc> people also bounce VHF signals off the moon
17:59:12 <kmc> I don't know what the record is there
17:59:29 <kmc> and there are satellites that act as amateur radio repeaters, but that's cheating as far as distance records go
18:00:40 <kmc> HF depends on the conditions of the ionosphere, which in turn depends on the sunspot cycle, which is at a minimum now. but there is still plenty you can do especially with weak signal modes like FT8 or good old morse code
18:01:28 <kmc> Morse is a very low bandwidth, low symbol rate (or can be, anyway) mode and therefore you can make a very sensitive receiver which picks out just that signal and very little of the surrounding noise
18:02:04 <kmc> to do extremely long distance on extremely low power, people have done extremely slow morse code ("QRSS"), up to one minute of transmission for a single dot!
18:02:23 <kmc> naturally this is encoded and decoded by computer because it's tedious to sit there for hours holding down a button
18:03:41 <kmc> before computers, morse code stations would sometimes transmit messages from punched tape, and record onto paper tape with a pen actuated by the radio rceeiver. this was mostly done to allow very fast transmission (time is money!) and not very slow, but same principle could apply.
18:03:58 <kmc> if you go to the historic KPH radiotelegraph station in Point Reyes, California, you can see this equipment still in use
18:05:57 <kmc> it was one of the first radiotelegraph stations, built in the 1920s mainly for ship-to-shore communication (which is why it's on the coast)
18:30:04 <b_jonas> I haven't seen such a morse transmitter, but I have seen a working telex terminal (not in production use, but in a museum) with a fast tape reader, so it can transmit and print characters faster than anyone could type on the keyboard.
18:31:08 <b_jonas> And I have also heard of the very low bandwidth morse transmissions, which were used for cable telegraph under the Atlantic for a decade or two before vacuum tubes were invented to amplify the signal right inside the undersea cable.
18:31:53 <b_jonas> Radio telegrpahy was also very hard back then, for the exact same reason: you need vacuum tubes to modulate the signal.
18:40:51 <kmc> for undersea cables they used a very clever device called a mirror galvanometer
18:41:14 <kmc> which is kind of like a normal analog ammeter but the needle is replaced with a tiny mirror
18:41:29 <kmc> onto which you shine a light
18:41:38 <kmc> so a very small deflection of the needle is "amplified" by moving the reflected spot of light a much larger distance
18:41:47 <kmc> essentially using a long lever arm with zero mass.
18:42:37 <kmc> for the earliest longwave radio transmissions they used electromechanical generators to produce the radio waves
18:42:40 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexanderson_alternator
18:43:14 <kmc> well no, for the *earliest* they used spark gap transmitters, but those produce crazy amounts of broadband RF noise and can't be used for anything other than on-off
18:43:44 <kmc> so their 'damped waves' were replaced by 'continuous wave' transmissions (the acronym CW survives today as the ham jargon for morse code; hams love jargon for jargon's sake and it's often more than 100 years old in origin)
18:44:14 <kmc> back then it was believed that longwave was the best way to do long distance, because it diffracts around the curvature of the earth
18:44:37 <kmc> shortwave was believed to be useless and given to the amateurs to play around with, they subsequently discovered ionospheric reflection and suddenly shortwave became very important
18:44:56 <kmc> of course, 'shortwave' is still 10,000 times longer than a lot of frequencies in use today.
18:47:33 <kmc> there is still one working Alexanderson alternator, they run it once or twice a year https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexanderson_Day
18:48:21 <kmc> only 17.2 kHz... you can receive that with an antenna direct into a sound card
18:48:43 <kmc> 17 km wavelength
18:53:01 <esowiki> [[TOWCBL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61319&oldid=58899 * ShareMan * (-5662) Deleted Page
18:55:22 <kmc> . o O (hm, I guess 17 is close to the square root of 300)
19:00:21 <b_jonas> kmc: I read up on this on occasion of a certain poem, and the history is interesting, even if I only found out about part of it and missing other parts
19:00:50 <kmc> which poem?
19:01:54 <b_jonas> https://chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/47171973#47171973
19:02:05 <b_jonas> "The Secret of the Machines" by Kipling
19:02:47 <kmc> ah kipling
19:05:29 <b_jonas> it mentions radiotelegraphy from Europe to America, which confused me a bit given how early he's written that
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19:34:32 <rain1> >The value of BB(1895) is known to be independent of ZFC
19:37:29 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[TOWCBL]]": Author request: blanked by original author, no intervening edits
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19:45:42 <kmc> rain1: https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2725
19:45:45 <kmc> guess they lowered the bound
19:47:08 <rain1> i dont 100% understand how its possible that the value of the function can be independent
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19:48:54 <kmc> I think it's a consquence of Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem?
19:49:06 <rain1> https://web.archive.org/web/20100204093058/http://www.fantasticmetropolis.com/i/division/full/
19:49:08 <kmc> like, a turing machine can't decide the truth of every statement of ZFC
19:49:28 <kmc> I think you can use a similar paradox / diagonal construction
19:49:30 <kmc> but i'm not sure
19:49:35 <kmc> I guess one of us could read the paper
19:50:58 <rain1> without reading the paper
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20:29:54 <ais523> I think it's implausible to prove that BB(n) is independent of ZFC for some n; you might well find a program of size n that's independent of ZFC, but how can you prove that there isn't a busier beaver of the same size?
20:31:12 <rain1> well if BB(n) in independent so is BB(n+1)
20:32:57 <rain1> im not sure what is meant by a busier beaver
20:33:49 <rain1> I guess it's just one that takes more steps to halt
20:35:20 <ais523> the value of BB(n) only depends on the behaviour of the slowest program with size n, not on the behaviour of any of the others
20:35:40 <rain1> https://googology.wikia.org/wiki/User_blog:Wythagoras/A_good_bound_for_S(7)%3F
20:36:54 <rain1> the trick is to search for a contradiction in ZFC
20:37:24 <rain1> let P be a program that does this, if ZFC is consistent it diverges if ZFC is inconsistent it halts after h steps
20:38:08 <rain1> so can we say that proving BB(|P|) = n for some numeral n is independent of ZFC?
20:38:53 <ais523> oh right, you wouldn't be able to prove a specific value for BB(n) in ZFC if ZFC were consistent
20:38:58 <ais523> because doing so would prove that ZFC were consistent
20:39:29 <ais523> OTOH, if ZFC is actually inconsistent, there's no problem
20:40:20 <rain1> its amusing that you can prove exists n, BB(|P|) = n
20:40:42 <ais523> that's a very philosophical question
20:47:59 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, from https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2725 I get it's a proof conditional on ZFC being consistent
20:48:20 <b_jonas> the machine halts iff it finds a proof that ZFC is inconsistent, and it searches the entire space of proofs effectively
20:49:20 <b_jonas> not the golfed program that is
20:49:30 <b_jonas> but it does something similar, and it's expected to not halt
20:50:09 <ais523> if ZFC is inconsistent, does that imply it can prove everything? or does it have some sort of safety valve against that?
20:50:42 <b_jonas> this is classical logic, so if it's inconsistent, then it proves everything
20:50:48 <zzo38> The use of sizeof(string literals) in C is useful with macros. I think they might also be useful with macros if you can also put a string literal followed by a constant in brackets and treat the result also as a constant.
20:51:20 <zzo38> Also that you can put string literal next to each other in C is useful with macros, too.
20:51:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think you can do that in modern C++
20:55:57 <b_jonas> http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20190420.html something seems wrong in Bobadventures comic. there's a new comic page posted, but no image.
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