< 1546732811 994293 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably worth a separate answer if we can make it work
< 1546732868 351374 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you get the pointer back to the correct alignment after a zeroing happens?
< 1546732880 647787 :Essadon!~Essadon@81-225-32-185-no249.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546732971 985967 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(one advantage I see is that it doesn't matter where it is, so long as the alignment is correct, which makes me more confident that it's possible)
< 1546733034 285606 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you need to make it so that the "throwaway" counter is on the same alignment as a real counter, just further left; this likely makes many of the counters not function correctly but as long as sufficiently many of them do, it's still TC
> 1546733090 141367 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Template:Yearcats14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58960&oldid=53929 5* 03Oerjan 5* (+26) 10Updoot
< 1546733214 481562 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Um, it's just a question of finding a Golomb ruler with *two* positions per value (mod p), then all the counters should work.
< 1546733265 513819 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh, the idea is that you maintain the ones at the left at 0?
< 1546733274 946416 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right
< 1546733296 294121 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(They'll be briefly nonzero after they're hit, thus the cleanup mention)
< 1546733402 504671 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I've been thinking a lot about a "resets to 0" variant of The Waterfall Model
< 1546733439 93554 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe this is TC if you permit the situation where two counters are 0, but the one that zeroed more recently increases the one that zeroed less recently, and the one that zeroed less recently decreases the one that zeroed more recently
< 1546733454 407764 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would make this situation much cleaner
< 1546733461 358118 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, although I /believe/ that it's TC I haven't proved it
< 1546733636 281383 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we're doing this in positive-reset Waterfall, then I assume your construction is that each real counter increases the corresponding fallback counter to its own reset value, and each real and fallback counter decreases the previous fallback counter by the reset value?
< 1546733676 515809 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep
< 1546733737 258760 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and to make the decrements work, each real and fallback counter has to decrease the /next/ counter by 1
< 1546733775 730590 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :'xactly (you're basically restating point 2)
< 1546733798 435992 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, this is me trying to understand what you've written
< 1546733902 101387 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose summing it all up in one SE comment (I think I had one byte left) doesn't help.
< 1546734308 478176 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so here's what the Erdős–Turán construction looks like, but it only hits half the moduli: https://tio.run/##y0rNyan8///w9Ic7lmgf2qR6aCnXwx3bDi8/tPXhzpb4w/sSDq10B7IObT20zs3OQOVY@8Odi8D8Rw1zHjXMBTK5DrcFHW5/1LTm4c7ZQMH///8bWgIA
< 1546734327 252626 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is actually perfect for this use...
< 1546734334 414094 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait right
< 1546734337 239759 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh
< 1546734400 78494 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be nice to find some way of creating small Golomb rulers that hit all of them twice
< 1546734478 190326 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2p
< 1546734480 101330 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops
< 1546734551 214330 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2p*f(i)+i, where f is any Golomb ruler.
< 1546734574 792313 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :version with  the moduli shown: https://tio.run/##y0rNyan8///w9Ic7lmgf2qR6aCnXwx3bDi8/tPPhzpZDK1UfNe4AMbYeWhd/eF/CoZXuUJ6bnYHKsfaHOxeB@Y8a5jxqmAtkch1uCzrc/qhpzcOds4GC////N7QEAA
< 1546734611 248853 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: OK, if it's 2p not just p, I think that works
< 1546734619 769552 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although of course you need each i twice
< 1546734635 599218 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well I mean to think of i,i+p as the pair for a counter
< 1546734637 188130 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably isn't asymptotically optimal but it may be good enough in practice
< 1546734684 660730 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd expect that not to work, but maybe it does?
< 1546734705 18725 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean 2p*f(i)+i, 2p*f(i+p)+i+p
< 1546734714 167961 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that's better
< 1546734732 49561 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but now the "distance p between real and fallback counter" is intriguing me
< 1546734764 760115 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not p, there's f(i+p) too
< 1546734775 818031 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't work, each real counter would have to decrease the previous one by the reset value
< 1546734779 528608 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is too harsh a restriction
< 1546734791 824800 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yes, full Golomb ruler for all the real and fallback counters
< 1546734844 579787 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is really just taking the p*f(i)+i construction for a Golomb ruler that hits each remainder once, and using 2p instead
< 1546734875 303785 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, if you're hitting each remainder once, you need 2p*f(i)+i
< 1546734903 235929 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are we talking about the same thing
< 1546734903 597313 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because "high i minus low i" from one difference and "low i minus high i" from a different difference can subtract to more than p
< 1546734907 411829 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so
< 1546734934 529375 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a Golomb ruler has f(i)-f(j) all distinct, i.e. they differ by at least 1
< 1546734950 337351 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so p*f(i) and p*f(j) differ by at least p
< 1546734953 988029 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, because the differences have to be equal (mod p) to be equal
< 1546734980 900619 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if i<j, k<l, and j-i = l-k (mod p), then j-i=l-k
< 1546735039 283143 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you use p*f(i)+i and p*f(j)+j, we're changing each of those differences by ±(p-1), so the difference can be adjusted by up to 2p-2
< 1546735049 482672 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me try being less brief.
< 1546735078 564908 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought about this yesterday. One requirement: f must be increasing.
< 1546735106 614048 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, if f is increasing, I can believe it works
< 1546735122 714239 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not sure, but I can see how that restriction might help)
< 1546735166 852970 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Define g(i) = p*f(i)+i
< 1546735202 608441 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let i<j, k<l. Assume g(j)-g(i) = g(l)-g(k). (g is increasing too).
< 1546735225 741338 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then j-i = l-k (mod p), and thus j-i = l-k
< 1546735261 100714 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And thus p*f(j)-p*f(i) = p*f(l)-p*f(k).
< 1546735277 703334 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus j=l and i=k since f is Golomb.
< 1546735300 651024 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right, because f is increasing, the fact that two differences of g have the same sign means that the two differences of i also have to have the same sign
< 1546735319 924905 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we can't produce a value greater than p by subtracting a negative number from a positive one
> 1546735342 101030 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58961&oldid=58957 5* 03Helen 5* (-2) 10Fixed spelling mistakes
> 1546735405 944120 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58962&oldid=58961 5* 03Helen 5* (+11) 10Undid mess up to popular problems section
< 1546735423 165045 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this construction is, what, O(n³)? that seems beatable but is likely already good enough
< 1546735511 352452 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so, if we plug Erdős–Turan in as f
< 1546735786 381646 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect even optimal Golomb rulers are O(n²), although the obvious pigeonhole argument doesn't work for that
< 1546736004 127622 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I vaguely interpreted Wikipedia that way (although there's a possibility Erdős–Turan isn't asymptotically optimal despite what it says in the previous paragraph)
< 1546736014 350913 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://oeis.org/A003022 does look pretty quadratic
< 1546736136 785133 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, I think these "each modulus twice" rulers can also be done in O(n²), just don't know how
< 1546736178 904804 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"a(n) >= n(n-1)/2, with strict inequality for n >= 5 (Golomb)." it says further down on the page
< 1546736251 203063 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although the very first comment sounds a bit off - it's not the obvious definition but maybe it's equivalent somehow.
< 1546736358 558687 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wait it's almost obvious.
< 1546736377 851148 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just rearrange a-b=c-d into a+d=b+c.
< 1546736572 359877 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh of course, then you need n(n-1)/2 distinct sums, so the largest sum must be at least n(n-1)/2, so the largest number must be at least n(n-1)/4
< 1546736614 851232 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
> 1546738306 700021 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58963&oldid=58962 5* 03Helen 5* (-2) 10Fixed interpreter code
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< 1546739685 517436 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, you can trivially improve the Erdős–Turan construction by subtracting rather than adding k², and if you're using a 4n-3 prime that gives you the other half of the values mod p
< 1546739689 771813 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*4n+3 prime
< 1546739846 197382 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was hoping there'd be some way to stitch the two together by, e.g., running two identical copies of the same The Waterfall Model program (thus not needing any interaction between the two, or differences between the two halves), but I don't think it works
< 1546742263 551518 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1546743029 919528 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BuxRo14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58964 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+632) 10Created page with "An esolang created by  [[User: Areallycoolusername]]. It has only one command and that's "Oof...". This command is used to print whatever the user desires. When any other word..."
> 1546743092 917894 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Areallycoolusername14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58965&oldid=58866 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+13) 10
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< 1546743453 237924 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there were some way to replace k² by a permutation of 0,...,p-1, then that would be O(p^2).
< 1546743474 429024 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1546743528 303962 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It needs to have the property that if s(l)-s(k)=s(j)-s(i) and l-k=j-i, then l=j.
< 1546743718 536486 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh the first equation needs to be (mod p), probably.
< 1546743738 664450 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No wait it doesn't.
< 1546743867 390904 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It replaces (k² mod p), not just k²)
< 1546743877 919831 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*s
< 1546744008 706540 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, is this the same as a Costas array
< 1546744033 369074 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it is
< 1546744039 784371 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ^
< 1546744074 745539 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Which I just found in the links from w:Golomb ruler)
< 1546744079 858228 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, I think it might be
< 1546744119 117541 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking along the same lines myself, I was sitting in Brachylog looking for permutations
< 1546744124 321946 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh
< 1546744161 997049 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and obviously, you can get the "repeated" property via producing a Golomb ruler of length 2p)
< 1546744175 902247 :eico!~eico@93-40-207-231.ip40.fastwebnet.it JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546744181 168598 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah
< 1546744249 429964 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately, even numbers are not prime, but there's a construction on the Wikipedia article for arrays whose size is a prime power minus 3
< 1546744252 72660 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's capable of being even
< 1546744276 791429 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, also for prime numbers minus 1
< 1546744287 297524 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is simpler, and also capable of being even (in fact, it nearly always is)
< 1546744721 628460 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's Golomb ruler of *order* 2p btw, length means the maximal distance.
< 1546744809 185091 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so we have c counters, and we want 2c+1 to be prime, and we calculate our counter locations (of both real and fallback counters) as 4ck+(((r**k)-1)%2c), where r is a primitive root of 2c+1
< 1546745211 150272 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whee!
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> 1546746902 100117 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Qwote14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58966 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+331) 10Created page with "Qwote is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User: Areallycoolusername]]. The only valid commands are single and double quotes. The language is binary, so 0s are..."
> 1546747001 316683 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Works in progress14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58967&oldid=56222 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+14) 10
> 1546747043 711919 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Works in progress14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58968&oldid=58967 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (-2) 10
> 1546747243 644543 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Qwote14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58969&oldid=58966 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+136) 10
< 1546747289 566946 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: a potential problem with this construction: how do we prevent non-counter cells becoming 0 as we iterate over them?
< 1546747304 870740 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, because they never get decremented
< 1546747336 693554 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, hmm
> 1546747339 454579 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58970&oldid=58921 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+45) 10
< 1546747346 586937 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was my point 3...
< 1546747367 635289 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I see
< 1546747375 207555 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I misread that, I thought you were doubling the distances between cells
< 1546747384 46611 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that you had a working halt mechanism
< 1546747400 828211 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, on the contrary, it's halved.
< 1546747431 798262 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we want to maintain halt behaviour we can double the distances and put a 1 to the left of non-halt counters, a 0 to the left of the halt counter
< 1546747472 816556 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a different idea, namely to replace >>> and <<< with the distance between the halting counter and its fallback
< 1546747490 768363 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the halt counter's fallback won't be 0 though
< 1546747502 611185 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :We can make an exception for it
< 1546747513 543069 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's not adjusted like the rest
< 1546747514 488625 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, wait, it will be 0
< 1546747530 535809 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the time we get round to the halt counter again
< 1546747549 349136 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "mark the halt counters" approach is clearer to implement, but makes the program larger
< 1546747570 912585 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, unless the halt counter happens to be a long way from its fallback)
< 1546747615 905214 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean that it works like this: When the halting counter is hit and 0, it does *not* adjust its fallback, instead keeping it zero so that hits it and exits.
< 1546747625 715193 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Almost immediately)
< 1546747665 77669 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, I think that works
< 1546748066 544474 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although the other method allows more easily more than one halt counter
> 1546748400 589945 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Cortex/draft14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58971&oldid=58947 5* 03Cortex 5* (+62) 10
< 1546748542 484140 :uplime!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546748636 272889 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure my point 4 (keeping all irrelevant cells non-negative) works.
< 1546748650 108053 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor am I, but I don't think it matters for this
< 1546748678 661859 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the constant factor of this construction appears to be 16 (i.e. it uses less than 16×c² cells, for c counters with 2c+1 prime)
< 1546748693 196336 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's with your version of the halting code
< 1546748714 759725 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, no, 24
< 1546748735 24806 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well I thought it would be a nice restriction to add, since not all bignum BF support negative numbers.
< 1546748766 741374 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1546748771 197730 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ruler itself takes up 8c² squares, and the movement of the tape head can overshoot up to the length of the ruler in either direction (plus a small constant, less than c, to the right)
< 1546748895 927940 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :10c² squares, isn't it?
< 1546749068 46812 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546749098 134297 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :4c*2c + 2c
< 1546749212 215715 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The overshoot to the left is due to the halting mechanism, no, so might be minimized by choosing a halting counter close to its fallback
< 1546749219 588141 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*no?
< 1546749337 254708 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait never mind
< 1546749351 599093 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :seeing c^2 where none is
< 1546749619 423928 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(g^i mod (2c+1)) = (g^j mod (2c+1)) (mod c) might not be trivial to solve
< 1546749660 772949 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :minimzing j-i
< 1546749821 123459 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1546749983 264357 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :g^(i+1)-g^i = (g-1)*g^i, that can easily be made c (mod (2c+1)), although then it may be 50% whether that's actually 1-c instead.
< 1546750035 777466 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er
< 1546750048 42977 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes
< 1546750121 929836 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No wait, -1-c
< 1546750179 115223 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If this is random, there should be a good chance of getting a small distance by trying g^(i+k)-g^i for growing k.
< 1546750556 352142 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm now using the formula 4ck-(((r**k)-1)%2c) (with a - not a +), which works for the same reason and gives a slightly shorter ruler
< 1546750592 124637 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for the overshoot to the left, there are two things that can cause it: a write overshoot (the length of the ruler), and a read overshoot (the distance between halt and halt-fallback)
< 1546750593 716720 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you want %(2c+1)
< 1546750599 595007 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1546750610 177707 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've corrected that in the program I'm writing but forgot to in my paste
< 1546750657 638051 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slightly shorter ruler assuming r is small
< 1546750660 698475 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<http://nethack4.org/esolangs/2bbf.pl> Smallest primitive root of 23 is 5. Formula is thus 2*22*i - (5**i)%23 + 1.
< 1546750670 648961 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's slightly shorter regardless
< 1546750706 404855 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh at the right end
< 1546750714 775664 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep
< 1546750725 350276 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The left won't matter because it's +-0
< 1546750727 716436 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the link there is unfinished, but I thought I'd show my work so far)
< 1546751899 675284 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What should I call program implementing Z-machine with Glulx?
< 1546752036 901103 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: BTW the very first counter should probably be pre-decremented at initialization (unless you want to consider execution to start with the second one)
< 1546752179 932946 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, good point
< 1546752228 383178 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, no
< 1546752243 636931 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm starting execution with the last counter's fallback so that things start at the right place
< 1546752268 76274 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that means I should pre-/increment/ the last counter at initialization, because it will be decremented by the code for counter 0
< 1546752276 198935 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose it doesn't actually matter, because of the rule that a TWM program can only zero one counter at a time
< 1546752293 352077 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed
< 1546752342 154044 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait
< 1546752363 73602 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically, I'm starting in a hypothetical state just after the fallback for the last counter ran
< 1546752364 593809 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I envisioned that the code for a counter/fallback decrements the *next* counter.
< 1546752373 780258 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*adjustment code
< 1546752398 653883 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, again I don't think it matters
< 1546752424 127743 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it worth rewriting this code I've already written for the slight clarity gain?
< 1546752426 620236 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it is
< 1546752528 84002 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, that didn't take long
< 1546753244 740793 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1546754364 574190 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546754365 447887 :MDead!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546754856 493378 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-dyderazmsatnlecc QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1546754924 623858 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-hnawvwsuuygebqzy JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546755207 611334 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it works!
< 1546755311 607886 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://nethack4.org/esolangs/2bbf.pl is the compiler; https://tinyurl.com/y7nfzxhh is an example of a compiled The Waterfall Model program (included BF interpreted by @ASCII-only  on PPCG)
< 1546755342 651630 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*interpreter
< 1546755533 695090 :eico!~eico@93-40-207-231.ip40.fastwebnet.it JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546755561 77103 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I'll let you write up the construction on cs.se if you wish, because it's mostly yours; if you don't want to I can do it for you, although probably not tonight
< 1546755801 796388 :eico!~eico@93-40-207-231.ip40.fastwebnet.it QUIT :Client Quit
< 1546755810 376059 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it crosses my mind that we could probably even make this do output (although we'd have to be outputting NULs every loop iteration which wouldn't otherwise output unless we used a third pair of brackets, and the output operations would be "increment output value", "output output value", "decrement output value" rather than "increment output value", "output output value and zero it")
> 1546755978 483098 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58972&oldid=58929 5* 03Ais523 5* (+501) 10/* Computational class */ 3-loop brainfuck improved to 2-loop brainfuck
< 1546756025 476386 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess this gives an alternative proof that BF only needs nesting level 2 to be TC ;-)
< 1546756077 502123 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually the proof that's there requires unbounded tape length but bounded cells, unlike this one.
< 1546756089 119237 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's a different case.
< 1546756110 51209 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Which I'd been hoping to solve as well)
> 1546756180 641001 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58973&oldid=58972 5* 03Ais523 5* (+3) 10/* Computational class */ fix my misremembering of the complexity of the two-bracket-pair construction
> 1546756200 551626 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58974&oldid=58973 5* 03Ais523 5* (-1) 10/* Computational class */ typo fix
< 1546756220 294173 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I know, and it works in BF-- too
< 1546756222 122009 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a lot harder
< 1546756226 892494 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what the wink was for
< 1546756241 653098 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)
< 1546756250 190541 :MDead!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MDude
< 1546756621 388014 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1546757174 532829 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 QUIT :Quit: Nite
> 1546758260 578256 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58975&oldid=58640 5* 03Salpynx 5* (-31) 10/* Non-Latin Hello Worlds */  fix capitalisation and spacing in output
< 1546761133 878217 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1546761145 951998 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546762379 88733 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what could be more primitive than finite state machines.
< 1546762527 752652 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stateless machines?
< 1546762564 652544 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :would you even consider them "machines" at that point? :P
< 1546762584 676652 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are functions stateless machines?
< 1546762606 926618 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really, no.
< 1546762774 571058 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :when carrying out the computation of a function given an input, there's always some state, be it in your head or on paper.
< 1546762785 121887 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may be in the form of rewriting an expression.
< 1546763114 835815 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcjpltykrbgmmx.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546763431 195306 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, if you describe a machine with state, you probably have a lookup table corresponding to which state you're in, which input you see, which action you take, which new state, etc.
< 1546763446 482642 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you remove the states from that, you just get a fixed lookup table for a function.
< 1546763544 890160 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :well when you put it like that, "lookup tables" are more primitive, but FSMs are defined in terms of, well, their transition function.
< 1546763637 719741 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh. you can't go much lower than that, unless you define constant functions..
< 1546764042 586836 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :then again, if you consider the "state" of a system and the current input as inputs to the transition function, an FSM _is_ a lookup table.
< 1546764049 871322 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a really weird one.
< 1546764089 999828 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, a nonobvious one. one with some extra logic on top of it. you hand in a state, it hands you back one, you hand that state back to it with a new input, it hands you back a new state.. etc. etc.
< 1546764303 845037 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcjpltykrbgmmx.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1546765368 411289 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what the _smallest_ change you'd have to make to an FSM that'd make it turing complete would be.
< 1546765379 423996 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :part of me says communication.
< 1546765947 961985 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mfbjtiwvfnqllwdv QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1546766026 239497 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :communicating state machines are interesting. if you allow an unbounded set of communication channels between finite state machines, this can be seen as a queue automaton.
< 1546766129 22053 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :a single machine can store its state by sending messages on a channel that's unique to it, thus encoding its internal state, and cycling through its messages and requeueing them.
< 1546766140 793046 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm.
> 1546766440 60898 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Laser14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58976&oldid=58946 5* 03FizzyApple12 5* (+29) 10
< 1546766510 725780 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546766917 240788 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1546767452 204846 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Laser14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58977&oldid=58976 5* 03FizzyApple12 5* (-131) 10
< 1546769024 483273 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would a programming language where you map the old state to the new state with dataflow fare against a typical imperative language in terms of parallel programming?
< 1546769250 43482 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
> 1546769812 561366 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Laser14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58978&oldid=58977 5* 03FizzyApple12 5* (-140) 10Put link to github repo
> 1546769893 600874 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Laser14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58979&oldid=58978 5* 03FizzyApple12 5* (+2) 10grammer
> 1546770066 505666 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Laser14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58980&oldid=58979 5* 03FizzyApple12 5* (+0) 10fix syntax in reference
< 1546770117 804119 :uplime!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.2
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> 1546775697 389144 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58981&oldid=58963 5* 03Helen 5* (+0) 10Fixed truth-machine code
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< 1546784449 981392 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546784462 680325 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! so ais523 has a separate account for golf SE from the rest of SE. 
< 1546784521 642557 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/102363/how-many-pairs-of-brackets-in-bf-be-sufficient-enough-to-make-it-turing-complete/102369#102369
< 1546784884 439724 :Essadon!~Essadon@81-225-32-185-no249.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546784942 300516 :Essadon!~Essadon@81-225-32-185-no249.tbcn.telia.com QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded
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< 1546785944 917080 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://i.imgur.com/cnCBR0d.png my IRC client liked that link
< 1546788855 143652 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? oerjen
< 1546788857 9343 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjen? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1546789154 622540 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? tla
< 1546789155 778580 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :tla? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1546789157 17518 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? acronym
< 1546789158 172035 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :acronym? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1546789167 825478 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? xtla
< 1546789169 99224 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :xtla? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1546789169 677897 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? etla
< 1546789170 838266 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :etla? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1546789298 975132 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Super Mario, spiny eggs have spines right when they are laid by the lakitu. Doesn't that have somewhat disturbing implications for the mother spiny?
< 1546789327 882000 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And those spikes can't be soft either, because they hurt Mario.
< 1546789687 599729 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546789893 321359 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1546789893 746273 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1546790121 29427 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? tas
< 1546790122 153828 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :TAS is a tool-assisted speedrun: a race in which participants must use quality tools such as the PHP hammer, Autoconf, and the Arkenpliers to assist them in running.
< 1546790148 995524 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or "totally authentic speedrun" 
< 1546790828 657368 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: maybe they harden after a short contact with air
< 1546790984 938176 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/diary/december_2018.html#december_28 Wow, this is a strange way to get inspiration for computability results. "I'd never heard before that the Church-Turing thesis was born right after Kleene got dosed with laughing gas!" on John Baez's blog
< 1546791024 888405 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadly it might be false
< 1546791153 355521 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently he was anesthesized but we don't specifically know if it's laughing gas, and the number of wisdom teeth pulled is in question
< 1546791271 513156 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, how was it first proven that Turing machines are as computationally powerful as the lambda calculus?
< 1546791282 157980 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe that's the ultimate question of Life, Universe, and Everything. How many wisdom teeth do you need to get pulled to be in such an altered mental state that you prove P!=NP? 42.
< 1546791614 260428 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a lot of teeth
< 1546792059 126968 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546792268 888043 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Baez gives a wrong formula for nitrous oxide (correct N2O) :( I strongly hope it’s a typo or a memory error
< 1546792283 130382 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :as NO2 is fairly toxic
< 1546792299 830543 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1546792372 397135 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546792758 492628 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546792867 496497 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546792908 498679 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@unaffiliated/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546792953 722299 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
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< 1546793174 718394 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell oerjan simpler construction (untested but feels like it should work): instead of one fallback counter per waterclock, have two global fallback counters that zero each other and decrement every waterclock, then use [<] as the inner loop rather than doing something mod-number-of-counters
< 1546793174 795562 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted.
< 1546793232 457877 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1546794328 7327 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: no, Baez quotes an article that gives the wrong fortuna, and then Baez points out the error in his own text
< 1546794334 989907 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm wait
< 1546794342 522095 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :he gives the wrong correction?
< 1546794349 575743 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me see 
< 1546794378 321515 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, you're right. Baez writes "NO_2". 
< 1546794390 91931 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that really seems wrong. 
< 1546794420 658662 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me drop him a mail
< 1546794986 934806 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcjpltykrbgmmx.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546795039 757974 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: oh, it would be nice!
< 1546795407 937623 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcjpltykrbgmmx.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1546795718 871538 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, TWO PAIRS OF BRACKETS in bignum brainfuck, wow. 
< 1546795762 121041 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way, oerjan, does that construction work with only zero and positive values in tape cells? I think it does, but I don't know for sure
< 1546796044 653034 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: not obviously; it's hard to adjust all the possible decremented cells to keep them positive
< 1546796058 154321 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "simpler construction" above may be easier to keep cells positive
< 1546796084 224310 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is the case that if a cell goes negative at any point, we never read it as 0 at any point
< 1546796441 236596 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1546796460 523183 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1546796691 878879 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but aren't all the adjustments using the bulk of the matrix positive, and you only decrement real counters one by one?
< 1546796702 781509 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :jumping from counter to counter
< 1546796762 201409 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the two-bracket construction decrements all sorts of random tape cells
< 1546796798 958921 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the only way it has to do an if statement is to change a cell at a fixed offset from the pointer, in such a way that if the condition is false, the changed cell isn't used for anything
< 1546796821 471841 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the construction has conditional decrements, so that's a lot of random unused cells being decremented
> 1546797254 335851 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07APLWSI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58982&oldid=58102 5* 03Weirdlang 5* (+3) 10/* Interpreter */
> 1546797292 941696 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Weirdlang14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58983 5* 03Weirdlang 5* (+7) 10Created page with "My page"
> 1546797392 493791 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Weirdlang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58984&oldid=58983 5* 03Weirdlang 5* (+28) 10
< 1546797616 693402 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ok, so this is a difference between the two bracket and the three bracket
> 1546797670 601690 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07APLWSI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58985&oldid=58982 5* 03Weirdlang 5* (+10) 10
< 1546797713 361156 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems there are almost no(?) languages supporting arbitrary-element regexes. It calls for a prefix encoding of arbitrary natural numbers by regex-easy strings, which means it better be free of escapes, as some people may want to debug those regexes. So I come to an encoding like this:
< 1546797713 485988 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :write a number in base 32, then code the leading digit as A…Z0…4@ and all other digits as a…z5…9&. But maybe there is something both more performant (decoding included) and space efficient?
< 1546797784 212297 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(A…Z0…4@ means 'A' ~ 0, 'B' ~ 1, … '4' ~ 30, '@' ~ 31)
< 1546797848 523867 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some fixed prefix character followed by base 64 digits?
< 1546797954 216130 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn, I have looked at that but gone it all wrong (n backticks then n base-64 digits, so obviously it was worse)
< 1546797975 395353 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you, it should be better for big element sets
< 1546798027 304820 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/gone/done
< 1546798099 351081 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@unaffiliated/kritixilithos QUIT :Quit: :q
< 1546798153 187849 :spiegelau!~spiegelau@82.144.205.57 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1546798348 645366 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07APLWSI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58986&oldid=58985 5* 03Weirdlang 5* (+21) 10
< 1546798574 404925 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546798613 45526 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546798770 401848 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
> 1546799218 558358 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Laser14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58987&oldid=58980 5* 03FizzyApple12 5* (+15) 10
< 1546799275 688642 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546799546 906164 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? thrice
< 1546799548 47856 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :thrice? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1546799554 438464 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? third
< 1546799555 667558 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :third? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1546799658 83243 :hexfive!~hexfive@50-54-136-115.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net JOIN :#esoteric
> 1546799664 893366 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Laser14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58988&oldid=58987 5* 03FizzyApple12 5* (+44) 10Add cat program to example codde
< 1546799741 189933 :uplime!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers JOIN :#esoteric
> 1546799783 959083 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Laser14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58989&oldid=58988 5* 03FizzyApple12 5* (+11) 10fix truth machine example
< 1546800436 741304 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1546802131 964361 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546804220 742048 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm, it shows not to be so efficient for e. g. int32s; random int32 encodes as ≈6.742 chars for base-32 code and ≈6.746 chars for base-64 code, and for int64s the results are ≈12.9 vs ≈11.9, here we begin to reap the economy sown; for entities counting in hundreds or thousands the base-32 code seems still more affordable (≈2.0 vs ≈2.9 for random numbers in 0..999)
< 1546804252 786483 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: as with all these things, it depends on how large you expect the values to get
< 1546804269 857857 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcjpltykrbgmmx.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546804294 644335 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I remember some Knuth article on some encoding like these
< 1546804294 779529 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :binary may be best for performance, for example, as it simplifies the regexes that have to do calculations on it
< 1546804530 840483 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcjpltykrbgmmx.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1546804606 210266 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: hmm, fancy. so you can get down to 5.742 if you use an alphabet of size 64, but use the lowest bit to indicate whether it's the last character in the encoding of a number or not.
< 1546804646 711339 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 6 - (sum [32^i | i <- [0..6]] / 2^32)
< 1546804648 528658 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 5.741935483878478
< 1546804655 972743 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 6 - (sum [64^i | i <- [0..5]] / 2^32)
< 1546804657 969374 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 5.746031746035442
< 1546804681 457071 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I was calculating it the other way…
< 1546804741 784298 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :the longer one, alas
< 1546804802 188157 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, something is wrong there
< 1546804808 390659 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 7 - (sum [32^i | i <- [0..6]] / 2^32)
< 1546804810 786903 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 6.741935483878478
< 1546804817 731144 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems these are off by 1, yes
< 1546804826 843131 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 1+6 - (sum [64^i | i <- [0..5]] / 2^32)
< 1546804829 176878 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 6.746031746035442
< 1546804967 295054 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 7 - (sum [32^i | i <- [1..6]] / 2^32) -- oops, the empty encoding for 0 doesn't work here
< 1546804969 313985 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 6.741935484111309
< 1546804976 188952 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not that it makes any big difference)
< 1546805436 59273 :spiegelau!~spiegelau@82.144.205.57 QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1546805731 80848 :hexfive!~hexfive@50-54-136-115.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1546805768 14746 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: hmm, given the way regular expression matching usually works... wouldn't it be helpful if we had an encoding that is both a prefix- and suffix-code?
< 1546805796 649772 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn’t think about that
< 1546806038 241157 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I picked one of them so there wouldn’t be potential matchings of not exactly well-formed subsequences of the input, not because of efficiency
< 1546806141 653360 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: uhm, that *is* my question though. We don't have that property.
< 1546806194 631787 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the base64 thing, the encoding of 1 is a prefix of the encoding of 64; in the base32 version it's similar for 1 and 32.
< 1546806256 535361 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ow
< 1546806331 622868 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, the last two days I’m too inattentive to almost all I’m doing :(
< 1546806479 170533 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :in ais523’s modification, we could somewhat leverage this, though, adding the separator character at the end of string and modifying regexes
< 1546806504 537913 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it can be complex, however
< 1546806722 659902 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :either should we use a fixed-length slice of these encodings or think up something a la UTF-8
< 1546806742 370519 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I even thought of the first case originally
< 1546806875 491911 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :base 2? base 32? base 64? why would you ever want a representation of integers other than nega-Zeckendorf?
< 1546806949 59921 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless it's for compatibility with displaying the score when your human players don't natively read nega-Zeckendorf and you don't want to do a radix conversion every time the player hits an enemy or gets a coin
< 1546806986 615460 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but come on, who cares about selling games to people who can only read hexadecimal
< 1546807055 381750 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: did you accidently mean octal?
< 1546807056 215938 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: nega-Zeckendorf arithmetic is hard. And besides it doesn't satisfy the prefix- and suffix-code desideratum
< 1546807086 753620 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :accidentally*
< 1546807089 544904 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly you should be using Radixal!!!! numbers
< 1546807108 366672 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yes, I know it's hard. I couldn't even figure out its rules properly, but zzo38 did figure them out
< 1546807168 789056 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546807187 721726 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: which one is that? it's not the one with binomial coefficients all the way down, right? maybe it's one of those crazy ones that logicians study about statements independent of Peano-arithmetic?
< 1546807224 623428 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: it's a notation invented to be difficult in an esolang
< 1546807226 610040 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and... I'm afraid to ask this. how many of the four exclamation points are part of the name?
< 1546807229 714603 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Radixal!!!!
< 1546807231 954957 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all four
< 1546807235 308396 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I did increment manually at some point: https://github.com/int-e/zeckendorf/blob/master/NegaZeckendorf.hs#L32-L42
< 1546807522 420855 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: and I have horrible generated code for the simplification part of the addition: https://github.com/int-e/zeckendorf/blob/master/simps.hs#L145-L187 (the simplification part takes the sequence of sums of digits from the two input numbers (so now we have digits with values 0, 1, and 2) and turns it back into a nega-Zeckendorf number.)
< 1546807600 214248 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you use bitvectors to represent which "digits" are present or am I thinking of another thing.
< 1546807680 970860 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wow. Radixal!!!! looks like a language that's designed to be hard for humans to understand, even though it probably isn't as horrible as it seems
< 1546807689 889719 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: there are no bitvectors in that code, I think.
< 1546807695 651087 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: sorry, did I confuse you with zzo then?
< 1546807711 1426 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: pretty much
< 1546807792 140208 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I don't know. I don't keep track of zzo's doings.
< 1546807795 822633 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I implemented zeckendorf, binary, and even decimal arithmetic, but nega-Zeckendorf is just too scary. the obvious way to do addition leads to carries that go both left and right in a way that it's not clear why they can't take up a long time to resolve.
< 1546807967 94292 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then there's some nice mixed bases, like the mayan or babylonian or whatever it is base 20,18,20,20,20,20,..., and http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-11-09.2335.html#d.2015-11-09.2335 for base 6,5,6,5,6,5,6,5,...
< 1546808032 794294 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( 365.2425,24,60,60 )
< 1546808145 356542 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :my favorite base is 1,2,3,4,5,…
< 1546808241 403027 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: it turns out that, somewhat miraculously, you never need more than one carry per place. In addition, as you keep processing digits from the least significant, you can always prune some of those possibilities away and only a bounded number remains.
< 1546808297 44995 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546808313 417767 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I forgot a lot of the details.
< 1546808363 841235 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yeah, you can turn it to a nice proper state machine that can do serial addition, ancient shift register ALU style
< 1546808411 250336 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, these things reminded me about my unsuccesful Clifford algebra crush. Did someone here implemented them in any way?
< 1546808515 740779 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546808528 826834 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :a naive implementation would suffer from O(2^n) space for each element in an algebra on an n-dimension vector space, but general elements are rare in practically interesting calculations
< 1546808536 855160 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcjpltykrbgmmx.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546808617 103797 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though elements of a spin group have 2^(n−1) elements in general, and they are useful
< 1546808634 873853 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :so not so many economy
< 1546808638 944924 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :much*
< 1546808647 390161 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1546808736 520539 :uplime!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.2
< 1546809216 841385 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcjpltykrbgmmx.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1546810515 875881 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 15%3.3
< 1546810521 561579 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :( 15%3.3
< 1546810525 794165 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :) 15%3.3
< 1546810532 818579 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no j-bot? hmm
< 1546810545 954893 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -ewarn 15/3.3
< 1546810546 655166 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :4.54545454545455 at -e line 1.
< 1546811121 770010 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: why not -Esay?
< 1546811636 806054 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? algol
< 1546811637 968670 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALGOL stands for A Programming Language
< 1546811657 787247 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? algorithm
< 1546811658 894152 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Algorithms (derived from the medieval "algorisms") are popular sayings by former president Al Gore, except for God's Algorithm which was invented by a Google computer cluster.
< 1546811674 688464 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? modula
< 1546811675 885007 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :modula? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1546811678 630083 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? module
< 1546811680 7859 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :A module is like a vector space, except with a ring instead of a field.
< 1546811685 924882 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? modular
< 1546811687 61623 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :modular? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1546811695 1975 :uplime!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546811730 973470 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546811735 692460 :Luciole!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 'j-bot restored'
< 1546811736 338764 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Luciole: j-bot restored
< 1546811795 182109 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :think we should call a language nonmodular when it thinks that x mod 0 ≠ x?
< 1546812322 203982 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: x mod 0 = x would imply x / 0 was valid and evaluated to something
< 1546812332 949543 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree that x mod 0 cannot definedly be anything other than x though
< 1546812354 190606 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, that's integer division x/0
< 1546812378 452949 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can sort-of see a perverse argument that x/0 is 0 with integer division but Inf with real-number division…
< 1546812392 933628 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for 0/0, which is of course always _ from Prolog
< 1546812400 647910 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 2 `mod` 0
< 1546812402 690344 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : *Exception: divide by zero
< 1546812426 617798 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :we also could define mod n as a canonical homomorphism Z → Z/nZ, and Z/0Z is Z sooo…
< 1546812429 81408 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> -1 `mod` 5
< 1546812431 573616 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : -1
< 1546812434 748173 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh come on
< 1546812453 797809 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -E say -1 % 5
< 1546812454 521557 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :4
< 1546812457 403704 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's better
< 1546812486 433432 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, Perl doesn't actually have an integer division operation
< 1546812487 528697 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :> -1 `rem` 5
< 1546812489 757475 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : -1
< 1546812495 675495 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :whaat
< 1546812495 891994 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -E {use integer; say -1 / 5}
< 1546812496 595944 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0
< 1546812510 111720 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -E {use integer; say -1 % 5}
< 1546812510 833029 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​-1
< 1546812511 840340 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"use integer" just gives access to the underlying operations on the processor
< 1546812516 120819 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (-1) `mod` 5
< 1546812518 559454 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 4
< 1546812540 523948 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I expected that to be a type error
< 1546812553 872093 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (+1) `mod` 5
< 1546812555 827480 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : error:
< 1546812555 875640 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :     • No instance for (Integral (Integer -> Integer))
< 1546812555 875681 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :         arising from a use of ‘e_115’
< 1546812562 591447 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sort of happy it follows the (a/b)*b + a%b == a rule under 'use integer'.
< 1546812563 981617 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :unary minus is a special case in the Haskell syntax
< 1546812579 392519 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: 'use integer' is basically just metacircular
< 1546812589 477090 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always forget what (-1) and (- 1) are and what they aren’t in Haskell
< 1546812590 841398 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there are few guarantees about what it actually does
< 1546812607 749881 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: they're the same
< 1546812624 477813 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: unless you enable the NegativeLiterals extension
< 1546812633 620523 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some time I’ll surely remember
< 1546812643 840031 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D
< 1546812653 181549 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :With that extension, -1 `mod` 5 == 4
< 1546812664 841375 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but - 1 `mod` 5 = -1
< 1546812674 736714 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does -1 `mod` 5 even parse?
< 1546812691 750093 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: unary minus, at a lower precedence than `mod`
< 1546812701 277575 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it was strange and unobvious
< 1546812701 757691 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and 1 mod 5 is 1
< 1546812705 904739 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> negate (mod 1 5)
< 1546812708 263489 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : -1
< 1546812761 881550 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can sympathise with C's rules that unary operators are always tighter than anything else, it's at least easy to remember
< 1546812789 577529 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> -2^2
< 1546812791 928874 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : -4
< 1546812814 935328 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is a precedence of unary minus exactly btw?
< 1546812826 102348 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(still in Haskell)
< 1546812852 233029 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why it has a precedence lower than ^ on level 8, and * is on level 7, as are all the other multiplicative operators, including `mod`.
< 1546812855 896242 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or maybe it’s `mod` that has an unusual one?)
< 1546812888 617960 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :anybody know any literature on proving the turing completeness of communicating state machines?
< 1546812891 665814 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm surprised that `identifier` operators even have precedences of their own, rather than all being the same
< 1546812899 267766 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :so -2 * 3 will parse as -(2 * 3)?
< 1546812903 203529 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: where does the infinite memory come from?
< 1546812932 519395 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, you can assign even a fixity to ``-operation!
< 1546812938 706455 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the channels used for communication are unbounded queues.
< 1546812967 562431 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :but from what I can see, don't contain more than one kind of symbol.
< 1546812985 24528 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 15%3.3
< 1546812985 647700 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 4.54545
< 1546812986 202044 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: well it's obvious you can implement, e.g., cyclic tag with that
< 1546812999 449462 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: "Prefix negation has the same precedence as the infix operator - defined in the Prelude (see Table 4.1). " https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch3.html#x8-280003.4
< 1546813072 404140 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right, I'm wondering if anybody's done it already. like I'd like to see a specific construction to wrap my head around it.
< 1546813105 40154 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: thank you! Interesting, this choice seems not so odd now
< 1546813142 422205 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 1 + -1
< 1546813144 866628 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : error:
< 1546813144 913688 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :     Precedence parsing error
< 1546813144 960121 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :         cannot mix ‘+’ [infixl 6] and prefix `-' [infixl 6] in the same infi...
< 1546813167 247447 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: it's annoying :)
< 1546813170 504628 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that isn't even an ambiguous parse :-P
< 1546813189 307646 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you parse 1 as a function and + as unary
< 1546813200 933563 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no unary +
< 1546813217 643980 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :still annoying, agree
< 1546813219 182763 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can only make that case for 1 - -1
< 1546813227 397677 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is the ambiguity in "f - g" fixed?
< 1546813263 203758 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Subtraction wins.
< 1546813267 120675 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and then there's prolog syntax, which allows the program to define almost any token as an infix operator
< 1546813291 712425 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prolog doesn't have operators (other than arguably is)
< 1546813339 608611 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :3+4*5 is a data structure '+'(3,'*'(4,5))
< 1546813346 104364 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it has infix constructors, not infix operators
< 1546813358 844382 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that
< 1546813361 896494 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :infix constructors
< 1546813378 883481 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only in the sense that scheme with eval only has constructors
< 1546813382 969867 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the is operator/statement happens to interpret this as an arithmetic expression, but it's is that puts the arithmetic interpretation on the structure, '+' and '*' by themselves are just identifiers
< 1546813398 78566 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you write constructors, but then they're going to be used as proper functions later if the expression is evaluated
< 1546813406 186578 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that's not right at all
< 1546813413 210466 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes they're in a context when they're never evaluated of course
< 1546813421 724316 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prolog programs /frequently/ use these punctuation constructors for arbitrary uses
< 1546813429 875368 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they don't have any inherent meaning
< 1546813432 186769 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure
< 1546813445 734337 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen them use infix minus for ordered pairs
< 1546813447 424720 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's crazy
< 1546813455 784041 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Haskell report is not very nice in this area... the grammar it provides is very ambiguous.
< 1546813467 435809 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :why shouldn’t be constructors a sub-notion of functions?
< 1546813475 419064 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: when golfing I normally use infix minus and infix slash as my main constructors for everything
< 1546813481 631240 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. a list isn't [1,2,3], it's 1/2/3/e
< 1546813484 409700 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :they take arguments and return something
< 1546813498 352601 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err,  or possibly the other way round, I forget the associativity
< 1546813512 154424 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then infix ones would be infix operators :)
< 1546813532 672908 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: does that help? the list constructor . has some built-in syntax, and more importantly, library primitives for a few list operations
< 1546813535 677110 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not many, sadly
< 1546813545 372540 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the prolog libraries are quite lacking in useful functions
< 1546813548 343296 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: [A|B] is way more verbose than A/B
< 1546813558 25065 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the builtins are normally too verbose to use
< 1546813570 721549 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like prolog people enjoy inventing everything on their own
< 1546813639 529762 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :or really prolog is an experimental language :P
< 1546813666 978168 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it doesn’t need extensive libraries
< 1546813667 787434 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have to actually dive into https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch10.html#x17-18100010.6 to see that for unary negation it checks the precedence of the preceding infix operator (if any)
< 1546813778 497920 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the reason is that you don't want to disambiguate  1 - -1 - 1 (is it 1 - (- (1 - 1)) or (1 - (- 1)) - 1?)
< 1546813795 982826 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but actually
< 1546813799 482754 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> -1 - 2
< 1546813802 241056 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : -3
< 1546813821 29762 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh I just don't know. It is what it is.
< 1546813871 882873 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? penguin
< 1546813873 12693 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :penguin? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1546814010 414319 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: prolog doesn't /need/ many builtins because it's so powerful
< 1546814036 53046 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been planning a declarative golflang, it can do a lot with only a fraction of the builtins of other golfing languages
< 1546814038 770181 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let us backtrack a bit here...
< 1546814043 300327 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :how in the world are CFSMs TC... it honestly looks like they're counter machines unless their channels can contain other "types" of messages, i.e other symbols.
< 1546814052 824814 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it needs _library functions_. that's not the same as "builtins".
< 1546814062 54945 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thonks.
< 1546814105 716082 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's like Consumer Society. it only needs two builtins, because those already allow you to do anything. but I still want to add an optional library that can do commonly useful stuff like arithmetic,
< 1546814126 509069 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a language I'm working on only needs four builtins, but I'm planning to add a macro system
< 1546814130 264511 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? cfsm
< 1546814131 471843 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfsm? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1546814137 742431 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just show that it doesn't really add power to the language by writing a reference implementation in pure Consumer Society, but an interpreter may still offer a more optimized version of it.
< 1546814148 136105 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to let you do things in a user-friendly way while obviously not needing other builtins
< 1546814152 636240 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster )
< 1546814156 581116 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean a version that isn't implemented in pure Consumer Society, but in implementation-defined ways.
< 1546814162 287330 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( Sometimes Google is less than helpful. )
< 1546814187 342624 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :communicating finite state machines. ;)
< 1546814215 220611 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not planning to add "macros". Consumer Society doesn't need them. The library has a perfectly normal interface for something you'd write in Consumer Society.
< 1546814240 890543 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It uses such calling conventions that you can use it from pure Consumer Society and implement it in pure Consumer Society.
< 1546814245 979557 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546814253 258554 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That restricts what interface it can have, but not too much to make it unusable.
< 1546814270 552270 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I'm aiming for a weird computational class (NL-complete)
< 1546814284 138505 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not only is it weird class-wise, it's also weird to program in
< 1546814297 261014 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. it can add two numbers, but can't store the result of the addition, it has to basically output each digit as it's calculated
< 1546814326 166568 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :two numbers as in bigints?
< 1546814331 627928 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1546814401 383095 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that does sound weird, yes
< 1546814476 878017 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1546814584 612994 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, what do we do on the wiki about languages whose computational class is known, but doesn't have a category?
< 1546814722 241463 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, (0) is such a language I think
< 1546814737 664022 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what class is it in?
< 1546814749 993553 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think primitive-recursive is probably the best known class with no category
< 1546814854 227164 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.cmi.ac.in/~madhavan/courses/concurrency2016/literature/brand-zafiropulo-jacm83.pdf what the fuck. this paper references itself regarding the actual construction of memory devices.. yet I can't seem to find where they do it..?
< 1546814860 281364 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I'm just blind.
< 1546814885 948214 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :they say refer to reference 9... reference 9 is the paper I'm reading.
< 1546814915 846105 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this a conference paper referencing a journal paper that's an expanded version of itself?
< 1546814925 568518 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, it's referring to a technical report.
< 1546814934 600492 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, it's not the paper you're reading.
< 1546814939 528444 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh... basically, if you give a (0) program integer inputs, then it's merely Turing-complete, but if you give it arguments that are not integers, then it can do as many operation as the, uh, Church-Kleene closure of the largest argument, if such a thing exists
< 1546814945 754347 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or so I think
< 1546814963 169318 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's more than Turing-complete
< 1546815004 390150 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I am so dumb, thanks int-e.
< 1546815015 805807 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if there's a name for that computational class
< 1546815036 885448 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :now to find that.
< 1546815040 502775 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't seem like a very commonly investigated computational class!
< 1546815073 697664 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Amycus is also higher than Turing-complete, but it only takes integer arguments, so it has a fixed computational complexity
< 1546815135 185562 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all >Turing languages are just "Uncomputable" on the wiki, though
< 1546815144 18833 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, it has the same complexity as (0) with omega as an input and nothing higher, it can effectively do omega_1^{\mathrm{CK}} steps 
< 1546815145 544350 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we do have a category for them
< 1546815178 529186 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that the category for !<Turing languages?
< 1546815187 991460 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, um, !<=Turing languages
< 1546815190 364975 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!≤
< 1546815203 197020 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, for a moment I forgot complexities weren't ordered
< 1546815229 828815 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although a language which isn't Turing-implementable and also isn't Turing-hard would be pretty unusual
< 1546815234 793623 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: https://domino.research.ibm.com/library/cyberdig.nsf/1e4115aea78b6e7c85256b360066f0d4/b09aab28334bb3ff8525777b0047357b!OpenDocument
< 1546815264 124268 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was surprisingly easy.
< 1546815265 505783 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :lmao we hit the same place. thanks!
< 1546815292 184717 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty unusual even by good esolangs standards? or only by the standard where random newbies post brainfuck substitutions and simple stack-based interpreters and call them "esolangs"?
< 1546815304 742367 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even by good esolangs standards
< 1546815321 886975 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless, possibly, you count things like the ". ." not-a-token in HOMESPRING
< 1546815330 102874 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is defined to cause a temporal paradox)
< 1546815335 617029 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with no further information)
< 1546815371 144738 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's sort of the uncomputable version of X from HQ9+
< 1546815448 306934 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then there's the [[:Category:Unusable for programming]] or whatever it's called, for all the languages that let you print a constant message but not do anything else. common among bad esolangs.
< 1546815515 931268 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then there's brainfuck with single level loops... what complexity class does that one have?
< 1546815567 78095 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :FSM I think
< 1546815582 936612 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not FSM-complete, it's lower
< 1546815628 359107 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think that still counts as [[:Category:Unusable for programming]], right?
< 1546815652 460582 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or would if we cared enough about the pages for all those bad esolangs to cat'ze them
< 1546815767 419981 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's best to leave terrible esolangs uncategorized if the author forgets, IMO
< 1546815772 924806 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure
< 1546815782 399542 :uplime!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.2
< 1546815856 736350 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you see a /good/ uncategorized esolang, feel free to categorize it
< 1546815869 600077 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :A single level of loops is enough for a string reversal program in Brainfuck.
< 1546815878 250733 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1546815933 557966 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: oh right, so more than FSM
< 1546815943 589463 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :each individual loop is an FSM but they can store data for the later loops
< 1546815987 950998 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that sounds right.
< 1546816113 951310 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? milkman
< 1546816115 205235 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :milkman? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1546816120 250332 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? gingerbread man
< 1546816121 264268 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :gingerbread man? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1546816145 995096 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? psychonauts
< 1546816147 93711 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :psychonauts? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1546816164 639970 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why was gingerbread and milk even delivered by two different professionals? wouldn't the people who bought gingerbread also buy milk to drink with it?
< 1546816174 310415 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :any sane person would centralize those to one job
< 1546816210 221534 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm "sane".
< 1546816210 593605 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think the gingerbread man is a real profession/job
< 1546816237 46807 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<Wikipedia> A gingerbread man is a biscuit or cookie made of gingerbread, usually in the shape of a stylized human, although other shapes, especially seasonal themes (Christmas, Halloween, Easter, etc.) and characters, are common. 
< 1546816259 464000 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But no, they are entirely different... milk has to be delivered much more frequently and regularly than baking goods, because it expires so quickly.
< 1546816312 248910 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: only if it's not properly pasteurized, or if the iceman doesn't deliver enough ice for your fridge. if you follow proper procedures, then you can keep milk for six weeks.
< 1546816319 942055 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, fictional gingerbread men tend to be anthropomorphised versions of the biscuit/cookie, not someone who delivers gingerbread
< 1546816392 117053 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Hmm I'm not sure when pasteurization became common.
< 1546816545 103516 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: dunno, it was already common in my childhood. all stores sold both normal pasteurized milk and ultra-high-temperature tasteless milk already. the difference was that (1) they sold 0.5 liter packs as well as 1 liter ones, and (2) they only sold them in nylon wrapping, none of the handful of modern variety packaging, such as waxed cardboard cartons, PET coke bottles with flat bottom and wide screw 
< 1546816551 129551 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tops, etc.
< 1546816589 499633 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546816609 352532 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :those nylong things were among the earliest plastic packaging used, as far as my memory goes, equalled only by dark raisins in similar nylon packaging
< 1546816635 633868 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the raisins sucked, but we didn't know better, because we didn't have all the cheap tasty sweets like today
< 1546816679 955904 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-186.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sound like a grumpy old grandpa now, don't I? (shakes his walking stick at the young whippersnappers) Get off my lawn, kids!
< 1546816772 947215 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1546816802 554382 :uplime!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers JOIN :#esoteric
< 1546816959 210997 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: parrotting wikipedia, it became common in the middle of the last century, because that's when states began mandating pasteurization to prevent diseases like tuberculosis being spread that way.
< 1546817068 774956 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: but what's unclear to me is how old the milkman profession is. I had assumed that it had been around long before Pasteur (1864 is when he came up with a heating procedure for preserving wine, which was later also applied to milk)
< 1546817577 264735 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot
< 1546817577 641585 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: the only way out. go on. run along now. i mean, from four storeys up it looked quite expensive, but that was only one kind of genetics.' susan peered around the edge of the mountains, and anyone who upsets important people is automatically not a good idea,' said
< 1546817855 179650 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1546818109 665188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:APLWSI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58990&oldid=54604 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+469) 10compare Nil, and definitions
> 1546818734 250438 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07APLWSI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58991&oldid=58986 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+33) 10/* Example programs */ Self-Interpreter
< 1546818911 28938 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar lowi
< 1546818912 334312 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOWI 062350Z AUTO VRB01KT 6000 -RASN FEW004 SCT020 BKN032 01/00 Q1030