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00:30:25 <elliott> ais523: you don't happen to use Thunderbird as a feed reader?
00:33:43 <ais523> which is decent once you've memorised it's slightly unintuitive controls
00:38:40 <pikhq> If you can breathe underwater, a few months. If you can't, the remainder of your days.
00:39:13 <pikhq> That's not walking now is it?
00:40:18 <ais523> no you couldn't, no legroom in those things
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00:42:48 <elliott> Hey, hiato is in #haskell.
00:47:13 <elliott> m (→Examples: return for int func is nec in c std.)
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01:10:06 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Are there any others than Bitlbee?
01:10:47 <RocketJSquirrel> Upon further observation, bitlbee isn't just a service, it's an available server.
01:11:23 <RocketJSquirrel> Come to think of it, all I really want is a IM proxy, it doesn't need to be over IRC. An IM BNC is what I want.
01:11:34 <elliott> It's an incredibly leaky abstraction, and the "one big administrative/contact list room" model is just weird.
01:11:40 <ais523> to hide your identity?
01:11:57 <RocketJSquirrel> ais523: Most of the IM services I use suck when you have multiple connections.
01:12:00 <elliott> Especially since "nobody in this room sees anything I say apart from the things I prefix with their name; also only I see anybody else saying anything" is a really, really disorienting thing for an IRC channel to be.
01:12:17 <elliott> ...and I won't even get started on how painful it makes group conversations in protocols that don't have explicit "named" group conversations.
01:12:22 <RocketJSquirrel> ais523: You can't see your outgoing messages from other connections, and frequently even miss incoming messages if another connection has been active more recently.
01:12:39 <ais523> why do people use IM for anything, again?
01:12:50 <ais523> AFAICT it solves the same problem as IRC, but worse
01:13:26 <RocketJSquirrel> ais523: IRC is channel-oriented, IM is person-oriented. IRC could be a perfectly workable IM protocol, but the clients are tailored for a different kind of communication.
01:13:43 <RocketJSquirrel> Which is why Pidgin is a shitty IRC client and XChat is a shitty IM client.
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01:21:08 <elliott> ais523: what's the most serious thing I could possibly do to Esolang?
01:21:31 <ais523> hmm, hard to think of, I guess
01:21:47 <ais523> some sort of big combined interpreter that does amazing things
01:21:51 <ais523> or a large standard library project
01:22:00 <elliott> well, boring people would expect me to do something silly to Esolang today
01:22:21 <elliott> so I have to do something very serious and bureaucratic instead
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01:39:38 <zzo38> What things, specifically?
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01:45:20 <elliott> zzo38: that's what i was asking!
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02:11:15 <elliott> shachaf: How many IO concepts are there in Haskell?
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02:16:54 <ais523> elliott: concepts? aren't those a C++ thing?
02:17:07 * elliott is just repeating a stupid question from #haskell.
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02:32:06 <olsner> "<elliott> olsner: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" <-- I'm already bathing with the snakes, so why not?
02:33:08 <olsner> but so far, I don't think I'm doing anything that's actually not possible in C++03, just a matter of convenience
02:33:29 <elliott> oh, that was just a random noooo
02:34:04 <olsner> I don't get what it was referring to, but ok
02:35:32 <olsner> elliott: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
02:36:21 <olsner> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOK
02:38:19 <elliott> HIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
02:44:02 <HackEgo> WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
02:45:16 <zzo38> How do I remove the maximize and close buttons in Windows? I never use them anyways, but sometimes I accidentally click them when I meant to click minimize.
02:45:47 <elliott> you could use a shortcut for minimise too
02:45:54 <olsner> remove Windows and all will be solved
02:46:22 <elliott> zzo38: http://www.annoyances.org/exec/forum/winxp/1233910418 may help
02:46:27 <zzo38> olsner: Yes, that is one way; but that would require a lot of work and I would have to install everything from the start all at first and so on
02:47:22 <olsner> nah, none of that is required to just remove it
02:47:59 <zzo38> Well, yes; but if I remove Windows and then do not put any other operating systems, then the computer won't work anymore
02:48:23 <elliott> ah, it won't help, no solutions there
02:48:56 <olsner> hmm, maybe not, but at least it will not give you more problems
03:08:24 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sun Apr 1 04:08:22
03:14:21 <RocketJSquirrel> QUICK anybody know how to do an exception to a rewriterule .*?
03:17:47 <zzo38> What does it mean, "How many IO concepts are there in Haskell"?
03:18:08 <ais523> the point was that it it was a stupid question and so people were laughing at it
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04:35:06 <zzo38> HPDF implements some typesetting algorithm, but I should want it to work with DVI as well.
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06:52:09 <ais523> gah, audiophiles: I just observed an argument on proggit where (possibly as a strawman) the argument came up that WAV was better than FLAC because FLAC was digital and WAV stored the uncompressed /analog/ signal
06:52:19 <ais523> but I think the most absurd statements have been edited out
06:53:33 <pikhq> That is wrong in far too many ways.
06:55:05 <ais523> I don't know; unlike most such arguments, it doesn't show ignorance of how compression works
06:55:15 <ais523> it's a different misconception entirely
06:55:30 <myndzi> well i guess technically anyway
06:55:33 <myndzi> if the wav came from a cd
06:55:48 <myndzi> it stores enough information to reproduce the exact analog signal up to about 44.1khz
06:55:51 <ais523> then the CD wasn't analog, because CDs are digital
06:56:00 <myndzi> er, 22.05? i sorta forget
06:56:06 <ais523> and, hmm, are you sure?
06:56:14 <myndzi> there's an interesting theorem about it
06:56:17 <ais523> you have to take quantization of amplitude into account, not just frequency
06:56:20 <myndzi> one sec, lemme find it
06:56:29 <ais523> the theorem is only to do with frequency, if you're thinking of the same one as me
06:57:22 <myndzi> ah yes, that's what i was looking for
06:57:32 <pikhq> The quantization error of CDs is utterly unnoticable with dithering, though.
06:57:51 <ion> At a 44.1 kHz sample rate you’ll be able to store a good 22.05 kHz square wave or very bad waveforms in its neighborhood downwards.
06:58:26 <ais523> pikhq: indeed, but that doesn't mean it isn't there, which is relevant in arguments about analog losslessness
06:58:27 <pikhq> ion: At a 44.1 kHz sample rate you'll be able to store a 22.05 kHz frequency exactly, modulo quantization.
06:58:39 <ais523> I'm entirely willing to believe that it's impossible for the human ear to detect
06:59:01 <ais523> (unless the recording was made on the most sensitive microphone in existence, it /is/ possible for a machine to detect)
06:59:28 <myndzi> i suppose i should have said "approaching exact" heh
06:59:30 <myndzi> been a while since i read about it
06:59:39 <myndzi> but to be exact it would have to be calculated out to infinity or some such
06:59:56 <pikhq> It would actually be exact if your samples were real numbers.
07:00:00 * ais523 vaguely wonders how accurate the most sensitive microphone in existence is
07:00:15 <ais523> and how accurate the A-to-D, if any, it's attached to is
07:00:15 <pikhq> The *only* inexactness is coming from the use of bound samples.
07:00:43 <ais523> pikhq: yes, in case someone decides to send a delta function at you or something
07:01:19 <myndzi> yes well, i don't have a firm enough understanding to discuss it, i was only pointing out that even though it's stored digitally, the information is essentially analog ;)
07:01:21 <myndzi> but then so would flac
07:01:40 <myndzi> and obviously this is not to support his argument, just to explain that one might see where he got confused
07:02:07 <pikhq> Anyways. CDDA is about as good at retaining fidelity of the audio as an 8K scan of film would be at retaining the video fidelity.
07:02:20 <pikhq> That is to say, if anyone says they can do better they're probably lying.
07:03:00 <myndzi> sample all the kilohertz
07:04:45 <ais523> pikhq: hmm, I'm pretty sure there are screens that can show at 4320p with it still possible to make out the individual pixels
07:04:54 <ais523> probably not very many, but I think they exist
07:05:14 <ais523> so it'd be an accurate representation of the film, but perceptably deficient for representing the original scene
07:05:27 <myndzi> that's kind of an incomplete statement
07:05:32 <myndzi> since it rather depends on the physical size of the screen
07:05:46 <pikhq> ais523: Yes, and said screens are probably big enough that you are a mere 3 pixels tall.
07:05:47 <ais523> myndzi: that's my point, there's no limit to how large you could make the screen in theory
07:05:59 <ais523> pikhq: they wouldn't have to be /that/ big
07:06:14 <myndzi> sure, but if we're talking about fidelity, you can't exactly expect "greater than 1:1" :P
07:06:45 <pikhq> But they'd have to be so large you're basically incapable of seeing the whole screen if you can see the individual pixels.
07:07:50 <ais523> whether you'd see the whole thing or make out pixels would depend on how far you were standing from it
07:08:04 <ais523> I'm imagining something around the size of a cinema screen would be enough to make out the pixels if you stood close to it
07:08:21 <ais523> (although obviously your head would block the projector if you tried that on an /actual/ cinema screen, so it'd have to use a different principle
07:08:34 <pikhq> Reverse projection cinema?
07:09:15 <ais523> yep, that could work, and IIRC actually exists, but is quite wasteful of space
07:09:25 <ais523> perhaps you could have two audiences, one on each side of the screen
07:10:44 <pikhq> It'd be a pretty bad idea unless you've got a particularly strange theater.
07:11:31 <pikhq> Perhaps if the seating is an actual stadium.
07:24:56 <ais523> <hypermog> Many, many 3D games were done using less.
07:25:08 <ais523> I initially interpreted that as referring to less(1)
07:25:21 <ais523> and thought that that was indeed quite a primitive tool to make a 3D game with
07:27:40 <ais523> can you actually edit things with less, apart from telling it to run vi?
07:27:58 <ais523> or would it just be a case of repeatedly paging through /dev/random until you found the source you needed?
07:30:57 <pikhq> less doesn't have an insert mode, so.
07:31:16 <pikhq> Yeah, can't edit with it.
07:32:54 <pikhq> Unless some smartass does ln -s vi /bin/less
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07:38:22 <zzo38> I have been told that LP record is better quality than CD and computer and audio tape and so on, but only the first time it is played. After that, it degrades.
07:39:38 <pikhq> They like to tell you that.
07:39:51 <pikhq> A CD has more dynamic range.
07:40:06 <pikhq> (not that it matters much in this age of 1 dB dynamic range)
07:43:16 <pikhq> Basically the only argument in favor of vinyl is that it may have pleasant artifacts.
07:46:32 <zzo38> The other argument in favor of vinyl is the simplicity of a record player; no computer is required to decode anything.
07:47:14 <pikhq> Not an argument in favor of the format's *quality*, but certainly an argument in favor of its use in certain contexts.
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07:48:09 <zzo38> Yes, I agree; the argument I mention has nothing to do with quality.
07:49:44 <zzo38> Before on this channel, I have discussed annotation monads a bit; but now I think of coannotation comonads as well.
07:53:44 <zzo38> Which makes Maybe to be the annotation monad of () and it makes non-empty list comonad to be the coannotation comonad of [()]
07:59:14 <fizzie> Re blocking the screen, there are also some very acute-angle projectors nowadays. Can't seem to find the right Google keywords, but there was an article; it was something ridiculous like 15 degrees or less. Probably not for cinema resolutions, though, since the intended use case was more like meetings and whatever. (Plus probably some loss in image quality due to the large amount of ...
07:59:20 <fizzie> ... perspective correction.)
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08:02:55 <ais523> fizzie: I've seen some acute-angle projectors that do a bunch of perspective correction, they're placed on the top of whiteboards, maybe about 30cm or so out
08:03:06 <ais523> but I'm not quite sure if they're quite /that/ acute
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09:32:40 <oerjan> <ais523> aimake is no longer vaporware! <-- so does that mean we can soon expect fe *hit by anvil falling through portal from future*
09:32:59 <ais523> no, feather probably can't be written in a week
09:42:19 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott> Sgeo: will i regret clicking that link? <ais523> elliott: I'll check it for you <ais523> yes <elliott> ais523: thanks, I'll click it then
09:42:28 <HackEgo> 836) <elliott> Sgeo: will i regret clicking that link? <ais523> elliott: I'll check it for you <ais523> yes <elliott> ais523: thanks, I'll click it then
09:43:10 <ais523> oerjan: it actually makes sense in context, too, he explained
09:43:27 <oerjan> but funnier without, i assume
09:46:44 <oerjan> <oklopol> why are these people allowed on my internet <-- to keep them out of the streets.
09:47:02 <oerjan> imagine the danger they would be in traffic.
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09:53:02 <oerjan> <elliott> Sgeo: why the fuck are you reading 3-year-old discussions on reddit <-- r/worstofreddithistory. you know it has to exist...
09:56:13 <oerjan> <ais523> Sgeo: yes, cardinalities of the reals and of infinite strings of elements drawn from a finite alphabet are both aleph-one <-- /me swats ais523 for assuming the continuum hypothesis -----###
09:56:53 <ais523> oerjan: I don't think that assumes the continuum hypothesis, aleph-one's defined as the cardinality of reals even if you assume there's more than one smaller infinity
09:58:14 <oerjan> aleph-one is defined as the smallest (well-orderable) cardinality larger than aleph-zero. it being == cardinality of reals is _precisely_ the continuum hypothesis.
09:58:59 <oerjan> there are however some popular math books which get that wrong.
09:59:43 <oerjan> beth-one, otoh, is equal to the cardinality of reals, being defined as 2^beth_zero = 2^aleph_zero.
10:03:34 <oerjan> <elliott> Ohhhh, mk is that guy who just wanted to learn monads, not Haskell. <-- "i just want to read shakespeare in the original, not learn english!"
10:04:07 <oerjan> (note: no guarantee about appropriateness of analogy)
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10:12:11 <oerjan> <elliott> so I have to do something very serious and bureaucratic instead <-- darn, so no deadfish feature? :(
10:15:06 <oerjan> 03:17:47: <zzo38> What does it mean, "How many IO concepts are there in Haskell"?
10:15:10 <oerjan> 03:18:08: <ais523> the point was that it it was a stupid question and so people were laughing at it
10:16:03 <oerjan> it doesn't sound stupid if you've heard about the lazy input/monads/iteratees/conduits/pipes mess
10:17:02 <oerjan> oh and there's frp, several variants.
10:17:54 <oerjan> and if you mix in the String/Bytestring/lazy Bytestring/Text/lazy Text/vector mess as well...
10:19:02 * oerjan fortunately does things so trivial he can just stay at the lazy String input level
10:19:13 <oerjan> haskelly trivial, that is.
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10:19:59 <oerjan> which otoh means i haven't really learned most of the others
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10:22:58 <oerjan> darn i forgot to put in the ban evasion reason
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10:47:49 <oklopol> does the ban never expire?
10:47:58 <oklopol> who knows, maybe he's gone to therapy or something
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11:14:51 <oerjan> oklopol: not if he keeps evading it
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13:20:26 <nortti> azaq23: problems with irc client?
13:37:27 <azaq23> nortti: I had an issue with the gnome desktop environment (couldn't switch between windows anymore, or click on anything which was outside of the interface of the application I had at the time in the
13:37:27 <azaq23> foreground), which forced me to restart it a few times, and with it the irc client I'm using. I suspect it's somehow connected to a jammed key on my touchpad
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13:56:14 <elliott> happy mailman mailing list membership reminders day
13:59:36 <elliott> "But now I want to sidetrack into some of Yesod's underlying philosophy, and demonstrate its incompatibility with cabal. Many people know that Yesod is Hebrew for "Foundation." What you may not realize is that it's also a term from Jewish mysticism. Jewish mysticism, also known as Kaballah, includes the concepts of receiving energy from a source."
14:00:54 <ais523> <elliott> happy mailman mailing list membership reminders day <-- it's april 1, and /that's/ the best you can say?
14:02:39 <elliott> ais523: i don't participate in internet jackass day, I just observe from the sidelines
14:02:46 <elliott> this is brilliant: http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2012-April/100527.html
14:02:57 <elliott> this is brillianter: http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2012-April/100533.html (only funny if you read the first one first)
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14:03:48 <ais523> is the first one a serious proposal with intentionally silly language, or just entirely silly?
14:03:52 <ais523> I'm too tired to tell them apart
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14:04:57 <elliott> ais523: it's more or less complete nonsense
14:05:35 <ais523> the reply is the sort of thing I'd make, it's a perfectly sensible reply to the post whether it's entirely joke or entirely serious you don't understand or serious disguised as joke
14:05:49 <elliott> ais523: it proposes using /youtube URLs/ as identifiers
14:05:55 <elliott> taking it seriously is unforgivable
14:05:58 <ais523> yes, I noticed that in a footnote
14:06:25 <elliott> I was about to say that the best parts were footnote 4 and appendix A, but then I realised that footnotes 1-1b and all the other appendices were good too
14:06:36 <elliott> oh, "However, I can only get away with my proof using Scott-free semantics." is the other best bit
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14:31:02 <elliott> ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
14:31:08 <elliott> APRIL FEUELZ!!!112156123786127836123
14:31:13 <elliott> (you might need to ctrl+f5 it)
14:31:41 <ais523> you can do that with CSS?
14:31:58 <ais523> heh, and it even affects edit pages
14:32:07 <elliott> yes, which made it quite hard to fix a css error i made the first time
14:32:16 <elliott> buttons look really weird upside-down
14:32:28 <ais523> I'm using useskin=monobook to read the code ;)
14:33:04 <elliott> upside-down english looks kinda like ipa
14:33:16 <ais523> I wonder how long it would take for that to be reverted if someone did it on Wikipedia
14:33:19 <ais523> I'm guessing between 1 and 3 minutes
14:33:38 <elliott> and then five years of arbitration cases
14:33:49 <elliott> I suppose I should remove this now
14:33:57 <elliott> in case anyone actually wants to read the wiki
14:37:26 <ais523> and potentially even useful for non-English languages
14:37:32 <elliott> I think I'll leave it like this for a day
14:37:37 <elliott> indeed, it reminds me of the hebrew wikipedia
14:37:47 <elliott> (note: technically this isn't an april fool's, just me fucking with things, since it's after 12pm)
14:38:08 <ais523> it's before 12pm in some places!
14:38:13 <elliott> i like how the top vector bar gets confused and slides the view history link in if you have JS enabled
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14:40:13 <elliott> ais523: I don't suppose there is any easy way to fix the caching of vector.css
14:40:46 <ais523> elliott: I'm reasonably sure there's a configuration variable /somewhere/ which invalidates everyone's caches when you bump it
14:40:52 <ais523> but I never dealt with that bit of things
14:40:57 <ais523> the devs could be made to bump it in emergencies
14:41:13 <ais523> (it uses the old junk query parameter trick)
14:43:55 <elliott> nortti: does http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page look normal to you?
14:44:01 <elliott> maybe it's just because i was already on the site that it didn't reload or something
14:45:06 <elliott> "1997 – Marriage in the Netherlands became more samey." -- come on WIkipedia, you can do better than this
14:45:49 <ais523> elliott: oh, fun fact, you know how Wikipedia's main page is based on date templates?
14:45:57 <ais523> well, they don't update automatically, someone has to purge the page
14:46:03 <ais523> and today: it was me who did the purge :)
14:46:18 <elliott> has anyone ever forgotten to?
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14:47:13 <ais523> well, it'd require /everyone/ to
14:47:18 <ais523> especially as it can be done while not logged in
14:47:34 <ais523> (although there's a clickthrough for that, to stop scrapers doing it unintentionally)
14:47:36 <elliott> if only purges were logged, so people could race and use it to start drama
14:50:58 <nortti> elliott: pretty funny text effect
14:51:18 <elliott> oh, so it does work without force-reloading?
14:51:47 <elliott> OK, that's my minimum level of contribution for April 1st done
14:52:11 <elliott> ais523: what's slashdot's?
14:52:27 <elliott> "NASCAR is supporting Google's new racing division based on autonomous vehicle technology." heh
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15:02:32 -!- RocketJSquirrel has set topic: Welcome to the International Hub for Esotericism and the Occult | Bringing computer systems from the astral plane since 1692! | Need some guidance on spirit projection? Elliott is the local expert, go to him first. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
15:05:08 <elliott> gah, it would have been an actually good gag to rewrite the main page to be about esoterica
15:07:14 <lambdabot> Local time for RocketJSquirrel is Sun Apr 1 11:06:45
15:07:23 <elliott> who's on the other side of america to RocketJSquirrel?
15:07:33 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Sun Apr 1 08:07:03 2012
15:09:43 <lambdabot> Local time for ais523 is Sun Apr 1 16:09:15 2012
15:11:07 <elliott> i wanted to know how much april 1st there was left tho
15:11:11 <lambdabot> Local time for fizzie is Sun Apr 1 18:10:41 2012
15:11:12 <lambdabot> Local time for clog is Sun Apr 1 08:11:05 2012
15:11:31 <lambdabot> Local time for Phantom_Hoover is Sun Apr 01 16:11:00
15:11:33 <lambdabot> Local time for Patashu is Mon Apr 02 01:11:05 2012
15:12:26 <Patashu> I must return to my own timeline now
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15:22:54 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
15:23:39 <elliott> `run echo 'Welcome to the international hub for esotericism and the occult! For more information, check out our wiki: http://www.demonicpedia.com/' >wisdom/welcome
15:24:19 <ais523> I was going to ask how lambdabot knew my timezone, but there was obivously a ctcp somewhere
15:24:30 <ais523> and I was looking for which channel it had been reported in
15:25:03 <HackEgo> HELPLESS_NEWBIE: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERICISM AND THE OCCULT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://WWW.DEMONICPEDIA.COM/
15:25:11 <elliott> that'll make them feel welcome
15:25:42 <elliott> unfortunately, nobody actually comes in here most days
15:25:45 <nortti> huh? Esolangs front page is normal again
15:26:43 <ais523> does demonicpedia actually exist?
15:26:49 <HackEgo> test: Welcome to the international hub for esotericism and the occult! For more information, check out our wiki: http://www.demonicpedia.com/
15:26:57 <ais523> I don't like thatchange
15:27:03 <ais523> although it's unlikely to matter
15:27:53 <nortti> ellitt: I cleared my cache
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15:31:09 <nortti> elliott: I have tried it with Camino 2.1 (cleared cache) and links2 and both seem normal
15:31:58 <elliott> Which browser did you see the effect in first time?
15:32:09 <elliott> I suspect Camino is just too old to understand the CSS.
15:33:03 <elliott> olsner: Silly Opera user ping
15:34:47 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: The real trick would have been to make the wiki not quite about esotericism, but esoLANGS, where eso means esotericism :)
15:34:54 <nortti> elliott: I saw it with TenFourFox. Camino is based on Gecko 1.9.2 by the way
15:35:30 <elliott> nortti: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/transform#Browser_compatibility Looks like it should work, then
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15:35:45 <elliott> olsner: What's esolangs.org look like to you
15:35:52 <olsner> elliott: looks entirely normal
15:36:14 <elliott> olsner: Force-reload it? (so the CSS reloads)
15:36:19 <elliott> "Opera: Clear the cache in Tools → Preferences"
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15:36:39 <elliott> Slereah_: No, April Fool's ends at 12 pm.
15:36:51 <elliott> Slereah_: This is just me deciding to fuck the wiki up.
15:37:00 <elliott> I am free of all cultural expectations.
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15:37:58 <olsner> elliott: actually I'm using the fool CSS, it's just wrong
15:38:16 <Slereah_> elliott : You so are culturally expected
15:38:18 <olsner> Invalid value for property: -o-transform
15:39:00 <elliott> mdn sez 10.5 up work with -o-
15:39:05 <elliott> olsner: does it recognise the "transform"?
15:39:08 <elliott> even if it doesn't recognise the -o-transform
15:40:46 <olsner> looks like it's spelled rotate in -o-transform
15:41:35 <olsner> according to http://www.opera.com/docs/specs/presto24/css/transforms/ anyway
15:41:50 <elliott> oh, they don't support rotateY?
15:42:16 <elliott> oh! apparently neither does mozilla
15:42:35 <olsner> maybe ff picks up the webkit transform instead
15:42:50 <elliott> "matrix(<number>, <number>, <number>, <number>, <number>, <number>)
15:42:50 <elliott> Specifies a 2D transformation in the form of a transformation matrix of six values. matrix(a,b,c,d,e,f) is equivalent to applying the transformation matrix [a b c d e f]."
15:43:02 <elliott> olsner: patches welcome, i'm too lazy to work out the matrix
15:47:04 <olsner> I'm not quite sure what the transform is supposed to do though... is that rotateY thing the same as scaleX(-1)?
15:47:15 <olsner> because that works with -o-transform
15:48:02 <olsner> and yeah, opera doesn't do 3D transforms (yet?), only the 2D transforms
15:48:34 <elliott> olsner: it's meant to flip the page horizontally
15:49:04 <olsner> rotating around the Y axis means rotating it in 3d?
15:49:35 <elliott> well, you could say that... or it's just subtracting the coordinate from the width
15:49:43 <elliott> it's not the "3d transform" stuff
15:50:00 <elliott> yes, scaleX(-1) does it, thanks
15:50:00 <olsner> rotateY is a 3d transform
15:50:33 <elliott> ais523: olsner: nortti: try now
15:54:04 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sun Apr 1 16:54:02
15:54:26 <elliott> hmm, I'll leave my wiki settings at UTC
15:55:04 <nortti> elliott: contents on the page are not flipped, but navigational links are
15:57:55 <nortti> elliott: I thought you meand links in the page
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15:58:16 <elliott> Yeah, the content is meant to be unflipped.
15:58:26 <elliott> I would be very impressed if links flipped the text :P
15:58:54 <nortti> elliott: I tried it and it didn't
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16:13:43 <elliott> ais523: help, I'm getting used to the new Esolang layout already
16:14:01 <ais523> elliott: abort, ignore, retry, fail?
16:14:22 <elliott> what was the difference between abort and fail, anyway
16:14:51 <nortti> elliott: If I remember corretly fail stopped the running program
16:19:30 <Deewiant> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/67586
16:20:34 <elliott> Deewiant: Okay, that makes sense
16:20:42 <elliott> So retry and fail are the only sane ones
16:23:32 <ais523> elliott: actually, abort stopped the running program; fail caused the libc or equivalent to return a failure code
16:23:45 <ais523> ignore caused it to return a success code, and retry is obvious
16:24:39 <elliott> ais523: Yes, that's what Deewiant's link said.
16:24:58 <ais523> oh, that was from memory, I didn't follow the link
16:25:26 <ais523> "This article applies to a different operating system than the one you are using. Article content that may not be relevant to you is disabled."
16:25:35 <ais523> you have to love Microsoft Support :)
16:26:00 <elliott> hmm, does Did You Know? usually change a billion times per day?
16:26:05 <elliott> Wikipedia's appears to be... somewhat in flux
16:26:16 <ais523> it normally gets updated five or six times a day
16:27:43 <ais523> the intent is to put every new article that it's at all possible to write a decent hook for on there
16:29:26 <elliott> gah, what is wrong with this template?
16:32:15 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Approximately_64,695_Pounds_of_Shark_Fins
16:32:22 <elliott> ais523: OK, this is the best article title on Wikipedia, no question
16:33:03 <ais523> there's a huge debate about what to do about april 1's "on this day"
16:33:11 <ais523> because of legitimate events happening on april 1 never getting a chance
16:33:19 <ais523> I think the conclusion was to list the events but with silly descriptions
16:33:32 <elliott> please! please, no discussion that isn't about that perfect title
16:34:33 <ais523> you should read the article attached to it, the event is vaguely ridiculous too
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17:09:28 <nortti> This crazy idea just came to my mind: Wait until all support on Windows XP has ended and then buy rights to MS-DOS source code from microsoft and after that relase it under wtfpl
17:11:53 <nortti> wait until support of xp has ended (xp still uses MS-DOS in its boot floppy) and after that buy MS-DOS from microsoft
17:12:10 <elliott> i'm not sure why you think it would be for sale
17:12:49 <nortti> did you notice this: "This crazy idea"
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17:35:37 <Taneb> I felt like writing a BF Joust interpreter/genetic creator in Haskell.
17:36:04 <Taneb> I've got 82 lines, including 10 imported modules and 2 language extensions that do absolutely nothing
17:36:08 <elliott> Genetic BF Joust has gone well approximately 0 times.
17:37:40 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
17:40:34 <Taneb> BF Joust programs written by Taneb have gone well approximately 0 times
17:41:05 <HackEgo> TANEB: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERICISM AND THE OCCULT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://WWW.DEMONICPEDIA.COM/
17:41:11 <elliott> HAVE YOU SEEN THE WIKI TODAY, BY THE WAY?
17:41:37 <Taneb> IT TOOK ME A SECOND TO FIGURE OUT WHAT WAS GOING ON
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18:29:25 <elliott> Hey Phantom_Hoover! NetHack 4.0.0 just came out!
18:29:28 <elliott> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/browse_thread/thread/261849837d0d8e42
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18:29:38 <elliott> Hey Phantom_Hoover! NetHack 4.1.0 just came out!
18:29:39 <elliott> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/browse_thread/thread/ade3da9173a7cc2a
18:29:44 <elliott> Hey Phantom_Hoover! NetHack 4.2.0 just came out!
18:29:45 <elliott> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/browse_thread/thread/cb0da1bf9d2c0ba1
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18:34:41 <oerjan> elliott: HEY I GOT THIS NEW SPIRIT PROJECTOR BUT IT WON'T WORK WITH WINDOWS XP D:
18:34:59 <HackEgo> OERJAN: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERICISM AND THE OCCULT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://WWW.DEMONICPEDIA.COM/
18:35:18 <elliott> HAVE YOU SEEN THE WIKI TODAY, BY THE WAY
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18:35:23 <elliott> THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERIC
18:35:26 <elliott> THAT PEOPLE KEEP COMING IN HERE FOR
18:36:01 <oerjan> NOT SINCE LAST I WAS HERE, WHEN IT LOOKED DISAPPOINTINGLY NORMAL
18:36:59 <elliott> ERM YOU MIGHT NEED A NEWER IE VERSION THAN YOU HAVE NOT SURE
18:37:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ps april fooles
18:37:35 <elliott> oerjan: well does it still look normal
18:40:49 <oerjan> (which afaik is the latest which works with xp, btw)
18:42:53 <elliott> oerjan: ok try ctrl+f5 now
18:43:43 <elliott> wait i think i messed it up
18:44:34 <oerjan> there is at least a difference now ... the background color is changed and the scrollbar doesn't work :P
18:44:52 <elliott> huh, what happens to the background?
18:45:16 <oerjan> same as the sidebar now
18:45:37 <elliott> I'm going by MS' documentation, which might be wrong
18:45:59 * elliott installs IE in Wine to test it himself
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18:46:54 <elliott> I think winetricks can do it
18:47:50 <elliott> oerjan: a screenshot would still be useful, though
18:48:30 <oerjan> thank you, omploader for today's front page (nsfw)
18:49:05 <oerjan> http://ompldr.org/vZDg0bg/screenshot.PNG
18:49:45 <elliott> i think it just lists the most-accessed files
18:50:36 <oklofok> am i missing midget porn somewher
18:50:56 <elliott> oerjan: it looks ok in my wine-installed ie8, but i suspect it might be using gecko
18:51:01 <oerjan> it's porn indeed, i couldn't tell if it was midgets.
18:51:45 <elliott> oh, ies4linux only goes up to 5
18:51:58 <elliott> and doesn't work with latest wine
18:52:44 <elliott> oerjan: (i can disable it for now if you want to browse the wiki)
18:52:58 <oerjan> oklofok: oh i wasn't linking to the porn, that's on ompldr's front page
18:53:28 <elliott> oerjan keeps all his midget porn to himself
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18:53:59 <oklofok> i've seen enough naked midgets to know immediately
18:54:05 <oerjan> huh list of ideas has a scrollbar but only allows a part of the article :P
18:54:20 <olsner> oklofok, watcher of naked midgets
18:54:21 <zzo38> elliott: Can you tell me how to spirit project a computer?
18:54:23 <elliott> i've removed it temporarily, lemme fix this
18:54:37 <HackEgo> ZZO38: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERICISM AND THE OCCULT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://WWW.DEMONICPEDIA.COM/
18:54:39 <elliott> zzo38: This is a very frequently asked question, check our wiki for more information!
18:56:54 <zzo38> It mentions nothing about how to spirit project a computer. (Searching for the term "computer" leads to no results)
18:57:04 <oerjan> elliott: heh are you trying to make it mirrored? the yafgc webcomic did that today too (although only to the comic itself and the title)
18:57:17 <elliott> oerjan: I said no peeking >:(
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18:57:58 <oerjan> elliott: erm ok. i had already clicked on the history diff so it was open in a tab
19:00:08 <elliott> ais523: hey, do you have any IE?
19:00:19 <ais523> I have IE6, but don't use it while connected to the internet
19:01:08 <elliott> oerjan: You know, Chrome and Firefox are pretty nice...
19:03:11 <elliott> oerjan: ok could you try now (this is just a test version to see what happens)
19:04:02 <oerjan> background still different, but scrollbar works now :P
19:06:05 <elliott> hey it's not my fault IE is weird
19:07:02 <oerjan> hey it doesn't have to be IE's fault. maybe it interprets _several_ of those transforms i shouldn't peek at, and there are an even number so they cancel out
19:10:47 <oerjan> a true master of indistinguishible subtlety
19:11:28 <elliott> fine, i give up. your browser is completely broken. it obeys neither the specification, nor its own documentation
19:11:36 <oerjan> i checked another page, the language list.
19:11:44 <elliott> you *were* ctrl+f5ing all this time, right?
19:12:10 <elliott> ok what does the language list look like
19:12:21 <oerjan> anyway, the page looks _almost_ normal, except for the small detail that the title is at the bottom, upside down.
19:12:58 <oerjan> since the main page has no title, i didn't notice it there :P
19:13:03 <elliott> (and is there a space where the title should be at the top?)
19:17:05 <oerjan> http://imgur.com/tQIHz
19:20:05 <elliott> oerjan: ok i just changed the effect to something else for IE < 9.
19:23:49 <elliott> guess you'll just have to live without any fancy tricks
19:23:54 * oerjan guesses him using IE 8 is the universe's april fool's joke on elliott
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19:31:10 <oklofok> i still prefer ie over firefox, although i have to admit chrome is the nicest invention in the world. because you can drag and drop tabs.
19:31:41 <olsner> (opera has had drag-and-drop tabs since like forever)
19:31:59 <nortti_> oklofok: You can do that on firefox
19:32:17 <oklofok> so i guess if i tried everything now, ie would finally lose
19:32:30 <elliott> olsner: opera users are so cute
19:32:31 <oklofok> (except for the fact it's much more stable than firefox in my experience)
19:32:42 <elliott> olsner: enjoy ur market share
19:33:06 <nortti_> oklofok: when did you try firefox
19:33:40 <oklofok> nortti: a couple of years ago
19:34:09 <oklofok> i used to use ie until it did something annoying, and then switched to firefox until it did something annoying
19:34:39 <nortti_> oklofok: Try it again. Firefox 3.* was terrible
19:34:43 <oklofok> but it usually took less than a day for firefox to do something stupid so finally i stopped using it
19:35:14 <oklofok> then at some point i tried chrome but on my laptop, all of its options windows were too big for my screen, and i couldn't close them
19:35:48 <oklofok> but i have a big screen now, and chrome hasn't done anything annoying since i bought this computer
19:35:51 <elliott> firefox 2 was terrible too, as far as memory usage/stability goes.
19:36:22 <elliott> oklofok: funny, since chrome doesn't actually use pref windows any more
19:37:26 <oklofok> and obviously i know since it's the only browser i use
19:37:41 <elliott> well, it's funny if you bought the new computer to run chrome
19:37:43 <nortti_> elliott: I had no problem with it. I actually maintained a version of Iceweasel 2 up to 2011 and then I switched to Iceweasel 4
19:37:45 <elliott> you haven't said otherwise so i'll assume you did
19:38:39 <oklofok> yeah i paid 2000 euros for a computer so i could try a browser that did something extremely annoying during the first minute i tried it.
19:39:47 <nortti_> oklofok: You can get computer that can run Chrome for 10€
19:40:25 <oklofok> so just to make things clear, i was prefectly happy with ie, i bought this computer _for no reason_.
19:40:44 <oklofok> and i decided to try chrome again for lulz. but turned out it was awesome.
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19:41:46 <elliott> bet it runs minecraft better than your older one
19:43:07 <oklofok> when i tried minecraft i was like what the fuck I CAN SEE MOUNTAINS
19:43:43 <elliott> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/data-ordlist/0.4.5/doc/html/Data-List-Ordered.html oh, there's a package for this!
19:43:52 <oklofok> and i can open like *two* minesweepers at once
19:44:35 <hagb4rd> have you already tried the 8 bit version of google maps? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF8BsdGaK3c
19:44:35 <zzo38> My DVI typesetting stuff in Haskell seem to do glue setting wrong. Is findBreaks wrong? findBreaks True f (h : t) | isJust (castNode h :: Maybe GlueNode) = ((\(x, y, z) -> (succ x, addGlue y (fst $ f h), z)) <$> findBreaks (isNodeDiscardable h) f t); findBreaks b f (h : t) = maybe id (\x -> ((0, fixedGlue 0, x) :)) (snd $ f h) ((\(x, y, z) -> (succ x, addGlue y (fst $ f h), z)) <$> findBreaks (isNodeDiscardable h) f t);
19:46:26 <nortti_> my browser history goes something like this: IE6 -> Firefox 2 -> Firefox 3 -> Firebird -> K-Meleon -> Iceweasel 2 with patches -> Konqueror, Iceweasel 2 with patches, Links2 -> Iceweasel 4, Links2 -> TenFourFox 5-11, Camino, Links2
19:48:08 -!- nortti_ has quit (Quit: nortti_).
19:48:12 <elliott> pffft, I used Firefox before you!
19:49:54 * oerjan used NCSA Mosaic so there
19:51:24 <elliott> Well, fuck you, I used WorldWideWeb.
19:51:32 <elliott> Or at least I tried to. Once.
19:52:15 <oklofok> i used ie before it was cool
19:53:16 <elliott> the first web browser i used was either ie 5.something or ie 6.
19:53:31 <zzo38> Does this findBreaks looks wrong?
19:53:43 <hagb4rd> ie6 is the worst browser ever
19:54:29 <hagb4rd> at least you need all kind of hacks to make your site support it
19:55:05 <zzo38> hagb4rd: If you are just using simple HTML stuff it should be support in anything
19:55:06 -!- Tiktalik has changed nick to Urist_McTiktalik.
19:55:12 <elliott> hagb4rd: Please. You've clearly never seen IE 5.
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19:56:49 <hagb4rd> great zzo38.. that really relieves me
19:58:02 <Sgeo> Don't tell me you've made a DF-IRC bridge
19:58:32 * Sgeo is aware that that doens't make much sense
19:58:41 <elliott> When did you appear here, anyway? I keep seeing you join and leave and I'm all "who's this Tiktalik guy".
19:58:44 <Sgeo> Although... a bot that tells IRC stuff that happens in a game
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20:00:10 <hagb4rd> damn it..my power supply is messed up
20:00:15 <elliott> Urist_McTiktalik: Are you... a ghost?
20:01:04 <hagb4rd> eliott: afaik netscape4 supports the the wc3 conventions better than ie6
20:01:48 <elliott> hagb4rd: You have *clearly* never used Netscape 4.
20:02:19 <hagb4rd> i can't remember.. maybe 15 years ago
20:02:46 <hagb4rd> i don't know which version it was
20:03:51 <Sgeo> I had a book, "DHTML for Dummies"
20:05:16 <Sgeo> Talked about IE4 and Netscape 4
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20:06:27 <oerjan> elliott: he's a demonic fishlike creature
20:08:25 <Taneb> My BF Joust thing is now 213 lines
20:09:11 <zzo38> No, findBreaks is correct; that is not the reason for the wrong glue setting.
20:09:29 <Taneb> The looping code is unfinished, and it just executes 1 step and says it's a tie at the moment
20:09:34 <Taneb> But it's getting there
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20:33:24 <hagb4rd> are you familiar with stenography techniques? i can't find the hidden text in this picture :( https://www.wechall.net/challenge/training/stegano/caterpillar/caterpillar.png
20:34:39 <hagb4rd> though the author pretends it to be an easy one.. now i feel really stupid
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20:35:29 * oerjan thinks he hasn't seen mtve in a while
20:36:33 <oerjan> hagb4rd: today's special challenge, or something?
20:38:16 * oerjan knows little about steganography but ihrc things are sometimes hidden in the lower bits
20:40:15 <hagb4rd> i've tried to cut off the last 2 bits in each pixel already..without success
20:40:38 <olsner> but today being today, there might not even be a hidden message
20:42:07 <oerjan> oh and there's metadata, maybe
20:42:55 <hagb4rd> okay.. i will try harder. thanks so far :>
20:43:03 <elliott> Sgeo: You are subscribed to spoon-*, right?
20:43:09 <Sgeo> I .. believe so
20:43:28 <Sgeo> At least, I remember subscribing to and participating in B stuff, and don't remember unsubscribing
20:43:29 <oerjan> Urist_McTiktalik: OUT, FOUL DEMONIAN CREATURE
20:43:31 <elliott> Sgeo: I would appreciate it if you could reply to my two recent determinations (to s-b) saying you agree with them, thanks!
20:43:50 <elliott> ("I agree with both of ehird's pending determinations." in a message on its own would work fine.)
20:43:55 <zzo38> OK! I got the gloe setting fixed by now. (The mistake was that the datatypes I used were not large enough to store the intermediate results)
20:44:07 <Sgeo> Hmm, I assume this is a scam of some sort
20:44:45 <HackEgo> Urist_McTiktalik: Welcome to the international hub for esotericism and the occult! For more information, check out our wiki: http://www.demonicpedia.com/
20:44:57 <elliott> If you really don't know what this place is and want a serious answer, see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
20:45:39 <Urist_McTiktalik> elliott: Okay, so it is actually what I thought it was. I was a bit confused >_>
20:46:20 <zzo38> And the demonicpedia does not even tell you how to spirit project a computer anyways (I doubt anyone on this channel knows about that kind of stuff).
20:46:27 <oerjan> Urist_McTiktalik: NO YOU ARE A FOUL FISH CREATURE FROM THE DEMONIAN
20:46:29 <hagb4rd> well thats a good point to start Urist_McTiktalik
20:48:32 <zzo38> Urist_McTiktalik: Good, because we have a lot of those.
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21:30:28 <Taneb> Had things on my mind, sorry
21:30:46 <Taneb> Although my BF Joust genetic thingy is nearing completion!
21:30:51 <Taneb> It needs a little tweaking, though
21:31:01 <Taneb> The best program it's came up with is "+"
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22:35:06 <elliott> @tell Phantom_Hoover Hope you're having fun in Mexico!
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23:10:00 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Mon Apr 2 00:09:57
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00:31:10 <elliott> http://techlaze.com/2012/03/richard-stallman-to-launch-his-own-fashion-line/
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01:43:13 <lambdabot> Local time for RocketJSquirrel is Sun Apr 1 21:42:41
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01:43:55 <elliott> Lemme know when it's April 2nd on Baker Island.
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01:55:38 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I can revert it if you really want me to :P
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02:01:20 <elliott> On sociological questions:
02:01:24 <elliott> <carter> as a sociological question: anyone else here observe the okcupid security vulnerability these weekend?
02:01:25 <elliott> <elliott> er, you're in #haskell
02:01:25 <elliott> <carter> it was sociological question
02:01:28 <elliott> * carter has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
02:04:45 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Sun Apr 1 19:04:15 2012
02:04:51 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Is it April 2 ANYWHERE?
02:06:50 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: 'Tis done
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02:20:11 <hagb4rd> if you feel to fuel your hatred for mankind, you should watch 'black mirror', a dark dystopia (trilogy) by charlie brooks.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQKYB262H8E ..well done stuff
02:20:59 <elliott> I, too, fuel my hatred for humankind by watching completely fictional works.
02:21:43 <hagb4rd> seriously.. it mirrors some dark sides of human nature
02:22:19 <elliott> The French subtitles really add a touch of class.
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02:32:43 <shachaf> elliott: You know what this channel doesn't have enough of?
02:32:51 <shachaf> The answer is sociological questions.
02:33:29 <zzo38> No, that is another question.
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03:01:37 <Sgeo> elliott, I forgot are you still on update list?
03:01:48 <Sgeo> Although lately I haven't really been doing it :/
03:02:04 <monqy> elliott is on the update list
03:05:05 <monqy> Sgeo: put shachaf on the update list
03:05:11 <monqy> shachaf: you're on the update list
03:05:20 <shachaf> Do I want to be on the update list?
03:07:59 <elliott> everyone wants to be on the update list
03:09:17 <shachaf> elliott: What's the update list good for?
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03:20:34 <lambdabot> Local time for itidus20 is Mon Apr 02 14:16:25
03:20:52 <lambdabot> Local time for Sgeo is Sun Apr 1 23:20:22
03:21:05 <Sgeo> Pulling a bizarre WIFOMy prank
03:21:07 <itidus20> i dont know if my pc time needs adjusting though
03:23:06 <lambdabot> Local time for itidus20 is Mon Apr 02 13:22:35
03:26:46 <elliott> hagb4rd: Okay, I retract my sarcasm since that actually made me watch it and it's as good as I've heard, so thanks.
03:26:50 <elliott> shachaf: It's good for nothing.
03:26:53 <elliott> shachaf: Absolutely nothing.
03:27:01 <elliott> shachaf: And now you're on it!
03:27:18 <shachaf> elliott: How do I get off the update list?
03:27:31 <shachaf> elliott: I need to wake up before noon tomorrow. :-(
03:27:58 <elliott> Oh, no. Nobody ever gets off the update list.
03:28:12 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Sun Apr 1 20:27:42 2012
03:29:40 <itidus20> i wonder if its possible for someone else to request the time on my client
03:30:28 <shachaf> elliott: Apparently cotton candy is called "candy floss" in the UK.
03:31:12 <lambdabot> Local time for itidus20 is Tue Nov 05 13:30:41
03:31:39 <shachaf> itidus20 is a time traveler. :-(
03:32:14 <shachaf> Wait, maybe the months are just backwards in the southern hemisphere.
03:32:43 <shachaf> So the summer is still in July but July happens in February.
03:32:56 <itidus20> frankly michael j fox hasn't aged a day since 1985
03:33:17 <elliott> shachaf: Apparently "candy floss" is misspelled "cotton candy" in the US.
03:34:51 <shachaf> elliott: OH YEAH, WELL, IN HEBREW IT'S CALLED "sugar on a stick".
03:34:56 <shachaf> At least, when it's on a stick.
03:35:06 <shachaf> At least that's what I always heard it called. Apparently there are other names.
03:35:09 <Sgeo> Grah, why is it when I WANT people to guess "It's an April Fools joke" they never do
03:35:55 <shachaf> elliott: kmc wants to be on the update list.
03:37:25 <elliott> shachaf: Can I tell you a secret?
03:37:28 <elliott> shachaf: We're all on the update list.
03:37:32 <elliott> Every single person in the world.
03:37:59 <shachaf> But it has nothing to do with the update list.
03:39:25 <zzo38> The months are not backward in southern hemisphere; the seasons are backward.
03:39:54 <shachaf> elliott: I get annoyed at some things, though. Like when people end sentences with words starting with an octothorpe. #annoyingthingsdespitebeinghappy
03:40:15 <shachaf> zzo38: That doesn't make any sense. Are you saying that itidus20 is a time traveler?
03:40:26 <shachaf> I thought time travel hadn't been invented yet.
03:40:35 <elliott> shachaf: I guess that's why you hate #haskell
03:41:22 <shachaf> #isawwhatyoudidthere #butieatedit
03:42:57 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Mon Apr 2 04:42:54
03:43:04 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Mon Apr 2 04:43:01
03:43:46 <zzo38> shachaf: No, I am not saying itidus20 is time traveler.
03:43:59 <lambdabot> Local time for zzo38 is 2012/04/01 20:34:29 -0700
03:44:28 <shachaf> zzo38: But itidus20's local time is Nov 05.
03:44:31 <lambdabot> Local time for Urist_McTiktalik is Sun Apr 1 21:44:02
03:44:43 <zzo38> shachaf: Then it is set incorrectly.
03:45:36 <shachaf> zzo38: I think it's more likely that it's Nov 05 in Australia.
03:47:14 <zzo38> elliott: Perhaps lambdabot wouldn't lie, but it asks the client and that client might lie or be incorrectly configured.
03:47:33 <zzo38> The sun declination means the sun will be directly overhead if you stand there. Depending on the tropical ecliptic longitude of the sun, the declination is the tropics on the world map (the Tropic of Cancer when the sun's ecliptic longitude is at 0 Cancer). The approximate dates of the sun's ecliptic longitude are given in most newspapers. When sun declination is near your hemisphere, it is summer time in your area.
03:47:45 <zzo38> So that is why the seasons backward in south hemisphere.
03:48:03 <lambdabot> no, it's really nov 05 in australia
03:48:51 <shachaf> zzo38: I think elliott just defeated your argument.
03:48:57 <zzo38> Do they use a different calendar in Australia?
03:49:28 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you trust lambdabot?
03:49:44 <zzo38> shachaf: Only if the input is correct.
03:50:04 <zzo38> If the input is correct, then the output will also be correct. Otherwise it might not be correct.
03:50:07 <shachaf> lambdabot: Is your input correct?
03:53:46 <zzo38> Do they use a different calendar in Australia?
03:54:10 <kmc> it's upside down
03:55:25 <zzo38> Which city does itidus20 live?
03:55:54 <zzo38> No, I connect it says, itidus20, TIME message is Apr 2
03:56:11 <zzo38> elliott: O, I thought you meant the *country* Australia. Sorry
03:58:09 <zzo38> When I send the TIME request to itidus20, using direct or lambdabot, it asys is Apr 2. So why did you say is Nov 5?
03:59:27 <zzo38> Therefore I don't believe you
03:59:35 <lambdabot> Local time for itidus20 is Mon Apr 02 13:59:02
03:59:49 <shachaf> itidus20: Did you move out of Australia since the last time I asked?!
04:00:23 <zzo38> You must have a fast airplane/boat/teleporter/whatever to move out of Australia that fast.
04:01:43 <zzo38> But still, I doubt that is the reason. Either you mixed up lambdabot to tell you the wrong answer or itidus20 set the time incorrectly on their computer to confuse you and then fixed it afterward.
04:02:29 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Mon Apr 2 05:02:26
04:02:29 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Mon Apr 2 04:03:12
04:02:35 <shachaf> zzo38: Maybe itidus20 *is* a time traveler.
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04:04:00 <shachaf> elliott: Cale will rue the day when he allowed this to happen. :-(
04:04:53 <elliott> (I even have a Careers.SO account! I don't want a career.)
04:05:03 <shachaf> I have a Careers.SO account!
04:05:10 <lambdabot> If multiple people are using lambdabot to @msg, it's harder to point the finger at any one of them.
04:05:12 <shachaf> I'm not sure how that happened.
04:05:33 <elliott> shachaf: It's an "exclusive" "invite-only" service, which I think means they automatically invite pretty much anyone who gets an SO account.
04:05:34 <oklofok> hard to type with my guitar hogging my hands
04:05:40 <lambdabot> i'm elliott, and i approve of this message
04:05:52 <shachaf> elliott: I got invited by SO user #13!
04:06:09 <elliott> shachaf: Jeff Atwood! I had no idea you were such good friends!
04:06:18 <oklofok> i went to work at like 1 am and proved such awesome things that i had to come home to chill out for a bit
04:07:55 * shachaf points the finger at elliott.
04:08:00 <elliott> No, shachaf sent that last one.
04:08:34 <elliott> shachaf: Well, I didn't send that last one.
04:08:40 <elliott> It was either you, or... someone else.
04:09:26 <elliott> I want to know all the admin commands. :(
04:10:10 <elliott> This seems to be a rare consequence of a non-atomic process. Making the data routines atomic would obviously slow the site way down, so this glitch (while very improbable) is likely to forever stay a potential occurrence.
04:10:31 <elliott> Okay, I'm not using @msg any more.
04:11:32 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Mon Apr 2 05:11:29
04:14:55 <elliott> monqy: Did you know I can make lambdabot quit from IRC?
04:15:17 <zzo38> Well, at least you didn't do it permanently.
04:15:18 <monqy> I can make lambdabot
04:15:25 <monqy> evaluate haskell expressions
04:16:32 <shachaf> elliott: You can't even make lambdabot flush its state.
04:18:12 <shachaf> elliott: I'm secretly a cache line.
04:18:53 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Mon Apr 2 05:18:49
04:20:23 <shachaf> lambdabot: elliott is being rude to me in /msg
04:21:18 * lambdabot clobbers shachaf with an untyped language
04:22:23 <itidus20> L = {s,d,f} R = {j,k,l} RRLRLLLRRL .. therefore klfjsdfklf is highly random
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04:57:18 <itidus21> elliott typed an even distribution of left hand and right hand characters in his deuidewhudhweuidhweuid
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05:00:31 <itidus21> 2 instances of R followed by R, 3 instances of R followed by L, 2 instances of L followed by R, 2 instances of L followed by L
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07:18:58 <oerjan> <itidus20> its called fairy floss here <-- only the australians are willing to admit to the grim procedure whereby it is produced.
07:21:28 <oerjan> <elliott> shachaf: We're all on the update list. <-- so that's what the matrix of solidity _is_
07:22:20 <pikhq_> oerjan: nonono. Only Australians use that particular production method.
07:22:48 <pikhq_> Americans prefer to use fairies as slave labor to work the cotton fields.
07:23:06 <pikhq_> Much more economically efficient. :)
07:31:42 <fizzie> oerjan: My mother-in-law told us we should always carry our own toilet paper because Norwegians are so miserly, they steal the toilet paper from public restrooms. Y/N?
07:32:36 <oerjan> fizzie: she said that yesterday, right?
07:34:15 <oerjan> i haven't had that particular problem, anyway. now if the personnel could only refill promptly...
07:35:04 <oerjan> (actually they _usually_ do.)
07:36:04 <oerjan> i suppose you might be thinking of roadside stop stuff though... i haven't used those much.
07:36:36 <oerjan> and being remote they might be vulnerable to _both_ sloppy refilling and vandals.
07:37:08 <oerjan> in lethal combination.
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07:39:44 <oerjan> <itidus21> elliott typed an even distribution of left hand and right hand characters in his deuidewhudhweuidhweuid <-- btw a _too_ even distribution can itself be a sign of nonrandomness.
07:40:33 * itidus21 sits and eats the fairy floss.
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07:50:44 <nortti> elliott: Did you really use WorldWideWeb? On NeXT computer?
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08:27:32 <lambdabot> Local time for itidus21 is Mon Nov 19 08:05:02
08:33:34 <lambdabot> Local time for pikhq_ is Mon Apr 2 02:33:04 2012
08:34:13 <itidus21> meh.. hard to adjust time based on javascript because it adapts itself to the system time
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09:39:21 <zzo38> traverseBox :: Applicative f => (Node -> f Node) -> x -> f Node;
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10:27:14 <Sgeo> Attention Facebook: Making things that change even when you don't click Accept or Ok or equivalent is BAD UI design
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10:29:15 <nortti> noteto self: check which application is active before you press cmd-q
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11:09:44 <nortti> Kinda funny how X11.app doesn't automatically get focus even if I click one of X11 windows
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11:26:22 <Taneb|Hovercraft> I think the main feature a social network needs to have is needs to be successful to be successful
11:29:02 <Taneb|Hovercraft> On another note, to my knowledge there are 3 esolangs with heavy use of graphs
11:36:34 <Taneb|Hovercraft> Hungary's president has resigned over allegations of plagarism
11:39:14 <oklofok> i proved something awesome, and it was known to this one dude already :(
11:39:36 <oklofok> waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
11:40:43 <oklofok> a mathematician would never plagiarise
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11:42:01 <Slereah_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQHaGhC7C2E
11:44:46 <Slereah_> "On analytical algebraic topology of locally euclidean metrizations of infinitely differential riemannian manifolds"
11:47:44 <oklofok> well the russians are a different story
11:48:24 <oklofok> i've heard crazy stories about russian mathematicians
11:48:52 <oklofok> one russian who talked at our uni did a long speech about how he discovered something independently from someone else
11:49:21 <oklofok> another russian lamented for ages about this russian guy who published case 2 of something, and claimed case n follows similarly.
11:49:51 <oklofok> and he promised to write a journal paper as soon as possible, so people aren't really touching the problem.
11:49:56 <oklofok> meanwhile, he's working on different things
11:51:35 <oklofok> i would probably not publish a paper if someone told me they'd already proved those results
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12:04:53 <graue> hello all you smiling people
12:06:39 <graue> i have an esowiki trivia question
12:07:01 <graue> where does "Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity." come from, or what does it mean y'all
12:07:31 <graue> the sentence does not really mean anything to me
12:07:38 <graue> you could say it's a bit........... esoteric
12:08:55 <oklofok> a crazy guy came here and said things, that was one of them.
12:09:21 <oklofok> for obvious reasons, everyone fell in love with it.
12:13:14 <Taneb|Hovercraft> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.20377
12:15:09 <nortti> so that is where that quote came from
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12:37:54 <itidus21> oklofok: the same problem happens with video game rom translation projects
12:38:29 <itidus21> someone soaks up all the fame and attention by announcing a W.I.P. translation but then gets venemous when questioned about it..
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12:38:47 <itidus21> "leave him alone man... if you don't like it do it yourself"
12:39:27 <itidus21> oh.. samurai shodown rpg... when will someone translate you so the masses can have closure
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13:17:48 <Deewiant> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsOXvQn3JuE
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13:34:52 <ion> deewiant: Hah
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14:04:14 <nortti> elliott: Did you really use WorldWideWeb on NeXT computer?
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14:07:15 <elliott> I tried to use WorldWideWeb on a non-NeXT computer once.
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14:11:48 <itidus21> random ponderance coming, perhaps loosely related
14:13:27 <itidus21> i was reading about the history of books on wiki, and it occured to me that screens/displays/monitors/tvs/projectors will eventually replace the book with a single page which can automatically change it's state to that of any page
14:14:41 <itidus21> im not sure where i am drawing the line though
14:15:15 <itidus21> and im sure i will fail to in the end..
14:15:51 <itidus21> i guess the pages of the book is really stored in a ram
14:17:45 <fizzie> I don't have anything with an e-ink screen. :/ I'd kinda like to see one, once.
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14:18:15 <itidus21> i find the greatest excitement comes from concluding upon a fallacy
14:18:48 <itidus21> since it is like temporarily living in a strange new world where the fallacy is not a fallacy
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14:21:49 <elliott> fizzie: No ebooks in Finland, as they say.
14:22:22 <Deewiant> I think I saw someone on the bus with one once.
14:22:42 <fizzie> I think I saw someone one the bus, too, but couldn't be entirely sure it was e-inky.
14:22:54 <fizzie> An e-reader it anyway was.
14:23:25 <elliott> Deewiant: fizzie: You must have been hallucinating.
14:23:41 <asiekierka> Onyx Boox i62, the thing i like most about it is how it supports anything you throw at it, supports full webkit (JS/canvas demos, too!) and comes with linux rooted out of the box
14:23:57 <asiekierka> the thing i hate about it is that compiling the SDK right is probably only a rumour
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14:24:27 <RocketJSquirrel> But the company's out of business, 'cuz you don't make money selling things that don't suck.
14:24:41 <asiekierka> some company already ported a Mono app to it
14:28:10 <itidus21> It's more complex than I thought. The book is now an application of text, and text is in 2 parts: the data and the presentation of the data.
14:31:59 <itidus21> once they hook up electronics to your optic nerves, a hacker can become invisible literally
14:43:06 <itidus21> sorry kinda stopped the room in tracks
14:50:02 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: NO BREATHETIHING????
14:53:40 <elliott> "Breathetihing" is a word now?
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14:56:55 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Asoidjfgk.
15:02:50 <elliott> Should we start, like... "welcoming" new people?
15:03:19 <elliott> Taneb|Hovercraft: I checked that 202.156.*.* hadn't accessed the signup page today, don't worry :P
15:06:29 <elliott> (diff | hist) . . N Index.php; 15:02 . . (+3,491) . . Dannybury (Talk | contribs | block) (Created page with "It is tremendous entertaining and genuinely excellent if you have a way with words and spelling. If you are involved obtain the scrabble cost-free obtain for cellular telephon...")
15:07:36 <elliott> I TRUSTED YOU, DANNUYBURY!!!!!
15:08:01 <elliott> "A single of the wonderful characteristics of truck video games are their one of a kind appears. The vans are created with a assortment of unconventional, entertaining, excellent and futuristic appearances. The style of the vans showcase their exclusive skills, distinctive powers and all round efficiency capabilities."
15:08:07 <elliott> OK, this has to be the best spam we've gotten in a while though :P
15:08:23 <elliott> "They can then beam with satisfaction when the trucker guardian returns residence on subsequent visits and they are equipped to proudly display just how significantly their expertise have enhanced. The broad wide variety of on the web truck game titles available can easily preserve drivers of all amounts intrigued. Just about every game is exclusive and supplies a wide variety of challenges for drivers. Scrabble mobile phone sport is now a cost-f
15:08:23 <elliott> ree down load as properly. It is not tricky to participate in, but can be sufficient of a problem to retain your fascination peaked. This sport normally takes two to four players making an attempt to rating points by forming words onto a board in Need Cash Now."
15:27:45 <nortti> "Linux users interface directly with the CPU via telepathy, but if they're tired, they can use the same UNIX scripting support Mac users have."
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16:03:57 <elliott> http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/127878/sending-large-files-in-c-using-sockets
16:06:12 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Yes, the include headers elevated it to a work of art, rather than just a particularly amusing trainwreck.
16:06:25 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: (Never mind the fact that it's on the site for discussion about Stack Overflow, rather than Stack Overflow itself.)
16:07:19 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2Wwf1UVdFo
16:07:23 <itidus21> closed as off topic by lunboks, Tim Stone, The Establishment, balpha♦ 24 secs ago
16:10:47 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: What's good webserver log analytics software>
16:11:14 <elliott> I want to find out what the most popular URLs starting with /wiki/ requested by non-bots are.
16:11:22 <elliott> (With multiple visits from the same IP not counting)
16:13:19 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: If there isn't anything nice for it I'll just use Perl :P
16:14:37 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Main problem is I'll have to filter out all the bot user agents myself >_>
16:15:23 <elliott> I think there are like twice as many bots as there are search engines.
16:16:20 <fizzie> Awstats and Analog are the two statistics things I've used.
16:16:26 <fizzie> I doubt either is especially nice.
16:16:40 <elliott> Isn't awstats the one with five billion security holes?
16:17:21 <elliott> Seems like analog's website is down.
16:17:29 <elliott> "Analog has not been officially updated since the version 6.0 release in December 2004. The original author moved on to commercial traffic analysis. Updates to Analog continued informally by its user community up until the end of 2009 on the official mailing list. Currently the only formally compiled updated redistributable of Analog is that of Analog C:Amie Edition, which has focused on fixing issues in Analog's XML DTD and on adding new operati
16:17:29 <elliott> ng system and web browser detection to the original code branch."
16:27:47 <RocketJSquirrel> How can a log stats analyzer have security vulnerabilities?
16:30:04 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: awstats is a CGI script thing, I think.
16:30:10 <elliott> With password protection and so on.
16:30:17 <elliott> I understand it's... not very well-written.
16:30:31 <elliott> I mean, obviously I can just hide it behind nginx HTTP auth, but it's still a pain.
16:31:25 <elliott> http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=awstats
16:31:35 <elliott> 22 CVEs for a web log analysis tool. Not good.
16:36:52 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Is there a Perl module I can load to get it to automagically work when I open a file ending in ".gz"?
16:37:05 <elliott> I want zperl. (Like zgrep.)
16:37:18 <elliott> If not RocketJSquirrel, maybe FIZZIE knows????
16:48:55 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9974502/paypal-api-through-zend-framework
16:52:43 <fizzie> I run awstats in an offline mode.
16:52:57 <fizzie> Since it looked far too messy to run as a CGI.
16:53:40 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, how does that work?
16:53:51 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I'm cooler than the musl guy, right?
16:54:13 <fizzie> It's got some sort of "--year X" or "--month Y" command-line flags that generate a static page. It wasn't completely clear how to set it up though.
16:54:49 <fizzie> And there's a gzip IO layer in Perl, but I don't know offhand something that'd auto-apparate based on filename.
16:55:02 <elliott> Well, I don't need the filename thing per se.
16:55:09 <elliott> It's just that access.log isn't gzipped while access.log.47.gz is.
16:57:07 <fizzie> PerlIO::gzip seems to have an "autopop" mode.
16:57:27 <fizzie> "Potentially dangerous. If the first two bytes match the gzip header "\x1f\x8b" then a gzip header is assumed (and checked) else the layer is silently popped. This results in gzip files being transparently decompressed, other files being treated normally. Of course, this has sides effects such as File::Copy becoming gunzip, and File::Compare comparing the uncompressed contents of files."
16:58:23 <elliott> fizzie: Well, the context would be using it with Perl's -n mode.
16:58:29 <elliott> With a bunch of filenames on the command-line.
17:00:11 <fizzie> Mhrm. Well, I don't know what would be the proper magic to make that happen when it's internally opening the files.
17:00:13 <elliott> I am a beginner of Haskell. I am trying out the happy.
17:00:28 <elliott> fizzie: Doesn't it just use the Perl open()? I guess maybe not.
17:01:51 <elliott> I suppose I might write a little Haskell module to parse the log lines.
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17:01:57 <elliott> They aren't very regexpable.
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17:06:00 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that even though at least one person here is a Facebook friend, some details of my life are not visible to this channel at all
17:07:49 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, the Debian has the awstats.
17:08:52 <elliott> -bash: awstats: command not found
17:13:48 <elliott> How do you list the files in a Debian package again?
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17:14:54 <fizzie> /usr/lib/cgi-bin/awstats.pl is the script.
17:16:01 <fizzie> /usr/lib/cgi-bin/awstats.pl -config=$cfg -update and then ... -year=X -month=Z -output -staticlinks are what my scripts call.
17:17:09 <fizzie> Oh, and then -year=X -month=Z -output=W -staticlinks for W in a long list of report page types.
17:17:29 <fizzie> It's not really very nice to use "offline" like that.
17:18:31 <fizzie> Though I think /usr/share/doc/awstats/examples/ has some model scripts too.
17:19:04 <fizzie> (The -update step is the one that reads all new logs; the rest output HTML to stdout.)
17:20:01 <fizzie> Oh, and /usr/share/awstats/tools/ has some pre-made "build static pages" script.
17:20:33 <fizzie> That was somehow deficient, I think. Though maybe I was just NIHhing.
17:21:01 <elliott> I'm... not convinced this is better than writing my own thing.
17:22:03 <elliott> How come there's no fancy Web 2.0 log analyser with fancy searching and AJAX and pretty graphs and all that? They all seem to use those silly javascript web bugs.
17:23:43 <olsner> "the web scale web log webalyzer"
17:24:47 <olsner> hmm, this is a shame, adding program size to the fitness makes it evolve only boring programs
17:25:05 <elliott> http://piwik.org/ -- see, this is nice, if only it didn't use a bug.
17:25:08 <elliott> olsner: What're you evolving?
17:25:33 <olsner> elliott: kuskelar a clatsop man, http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt
17:26:39 <elliott> olsner: Well that thing's terrible.
17:27:11 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Have you considered failing all programs with negative points (not score)?
17:27:27 <elliott> They're almost always things that just aren't any good on the current hill and win only because the scoring system is weird.
17:27:57 <olsner> it's probably better than what I would achieve in one night of jousting though :)
17:29:00 <elliott> olsner: Have you seen the really gigantic programs?
17:29:36 <olsner> yeah, one or two of them
17:29:49 <elliott> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/Gregor_furry_furry_strapon_pegging_girls.bfjoust includes its generator script ;)
17:29:56 <elliott> (As does http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls.bfjoust)
17:30:04 <olsner> that was slightly boggling yes
17:31:00 * elliott wants to see the programs that generated http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ais523_anticipation.bfjoust and http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/quintopia_space_elevator.bfjoust
17:32:45 <ais523> http://sprunge.us/AaHT
17:33:09 <ais523> the funny thing about anticipation is, it'd be trivial to write a version that isn't sensitive to details of the opposing programs
17:33:28 <ais523> but then it'd be too long for the interpreter, so instead I had to tweak constants to use only the lines that actually mattered against programs on the hill
17:38:25 <elliott> ais523: wow, that's surprisingly short
17:38:46 <elliott> "Given that a better interpreter could allow for all values"
17:38:48 <ais523> the program itself is very simple and repetitive, just doesn't compress well because the numbers are different each time
17:38:53 <elliott> ais523: would this require extending the language with more macro facilities?
17:38:57 <ais523> did you not notice that anticipation is basically the same line over and over again
17:39:00 <elliott> or is chainlance or whatever it was just too limited?
17:39:11 <ais523> elliott: oh, that'd help more, but the actual problem was just the restriction on program size
17:39:16 <elliott> and sort of, but not really, since it's very long
17:39:20 <elliott> ais523: how big would it be without the special-casing?
17:39:31 <elliott> (also, would cpp be enough to provide the necessary macro facilities?)
17:39:53 <ais523> around 5 times as long, and only if you can get it to count in decimal
17:40:15 <ais523> (which I don't think you can do without a crazy state machine; it can evaluate integer expressions, but not substitute their results into the generated code)
17:40:21 <elliott> ais523: but, I mean, you could use cpp for the ()* and ()% parts too
17:40:28 <elliott> just assume that it uses an incremental cpp interpreter of some kind
17:41:05 <ais523> anyway, I consider BF Joust pretty much broken by now, I don't think standard defensive programs can possibly win against slowpoke's clear loop, and it's possible to adjust it to beat anticipation too
17:41:40 <elliott> that's not what you said a while ago
17:41:43 <ais523> specifically, timer clear beats regular locks, the structure of its loop beats both triplocks and shudder-style programs, and it could be adapted to beat anticipation simply by giving a fallback strategy
17:42:01 <ais523> I discovered that you could change timer clears to beat anticipations too a while back
17:42:07 * elliott thinks there's a *lot* more possibilities for defence programs than the "standard" style
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17:42:18 <elliott> it's a much more varied field than attack, by a huge margin
17:42:57 <elliott> there's lots of defence programs that start attacking if they figure the opponent is defending
17:43:10 <elliott> are there any attacking programs that start defending if they think the opponent is coming to attack them?
17:43:24 <elliott> obviously that'll require quite a slow rush, but still
17:45:12 <ais523> elliott: I know that waterfall switches from a complicated defence strategy to a much simpler one if it notices that its early decoys have the wrong values
17:45:41 <ais523> and I'm pretty sure someone else had an attack program that changed if it had early decoys disrupted, although it may have been to a turtle rather than a defence program
17:46:11 <elliott> has anyone made a program that will switch strategies more than once?
17:46:23 <elliott> i.e. that'll actually bounce back multiple times if it thinks the other program is changing _its_ behaviour
17:46:46 <ais523> I don't think that makes sense, once you're in an attack race switching isn't going to help
17:46:57 <ais523> and if you're both defending it doesn't matter what you do
17:47:07 <elliott> ais523: yes, but consider if the other program is switching strategies itself
17:47:30 <elliott> e.g., it waits until the other defence program gives up, concludes it's defending and starts rushing
17:47:38 <elliott> and then it attacks while the other program is blindly rushing
17:47:53 <ais523> elliott: well, the problem is that that's just changing once
17:47:54 <elliott> if the other program could change behaviour back to defending while it's rushing, it could prevent that
17:48:04 <elliott> which would be two changes
17:48:38 <ais523> anyway, the point is, that defence programs that start attacking after a while, do so with a strategy that can't easily be defended against
17:48:42 <ais523> like five- or seven-cycle clear
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17:49:47 <elliott> ok, consider a program A, when faced against a defence program B, it just sits there waiting, then B concludes that A must be defence program and starts fast-rushing; A takes this opportunity to rush B, which is no longer defending and just blind-rushing
17:50:10 <elliott> if B rushed a little slower to get the opportunity to know that _it's_ being counter-rushed, it could run back to defend (which would be 2 mode changes)
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17:50:23 <ais523> oh, that's really bad play from both programs
17:50:42 <ais523> attacking is the worst thing you can do if you detect that you're being blindly rushed, unless you happen to be closer to the opponent's flag than they are to yours at the time
17:51:13 <ais523> and B's subsequent retreat would just be throwing away the chance to win for a chance at maybe safeguarding its flag, and it'd have to interrupt its own rush to check
17:51:17 <elliott> ais523: well, the idea is that A would wait near to B's flag
17:51:26 <elliott> so it could be notified of the rush early, and get to B's flag quickly
17:51:28 <ais523> elliott: if it knew where B's flag /was/, it could just clear it
17:51:35 <ais523> this is the whole problem with BF Joust, right?
17:51:42 <elliott> ais523: yes, but the point is that B is defending...
17:51:46 <elliott> so A doesn't want to go near until B is gone
17:52:12 <ais523> elliott: yes; but how can A figure out where to wait?
17:52:21 <ais523> note that if it waits near B's flag, it can't figure out that B has gone
17:52:25 <ais523> because B is unlikely to leave a trail
17:52:42 <ais523> A would have to be at least 9 spaces away from B's flag, because B is going to be using the rule of 9
17:52:55 <ais523> and to guarantee /that/, it has to be on its own flag
17:54:20 <elliott> it could always sacrifice lower tape lengths
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17:55:14 <ais523> doesn't help, you'd need to sacrifice more than half of them to be able to be closer to the opponent's flag than they are when you detect them attacking
17:55:38 <elliott> well, what about a program that works by magic and has no possible objections to its strategy?
17:56:09 <ais523> I do not consider this a valid argument :)
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17:56:43 <HackEgo> teD_thE_PoTHead: Welcome to the international hub for esotericism and the occult! For more information, check out our wiki: http://www.demonicpedia.com/
17:56:44 <elliott> we haven't de-april foolsed that yet
17:56:54 <elliott> teD_thE_PoTHead: hi, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
17:57:08 <elliott> `pastlog Welcome to the international hub
17:57:22 <HackEgo> 2011-12-09.txt:23:10:56: <HackEgo> espero: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
17:57:27 <elliott> `run echo 'Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page' >wisdom/welcome
17:57:40 <HackEgo> teD_thE_PoTHead: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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18:24:09 <elliott> (User creation log); 18:23 . . David.werecat (Talk | contribs | block) New user account
18:24:17 <elliott> I wonder if this one is a spammer too. Hopefully not.
18:24:32 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:24:45 <elliott> Well, no spammer would impersonate Opera users.
18:24:57 <elliott> olsner: HEAR THAT, OPERA USER?
18:25:45 <elliott> ais523: do we subst {{unsigned}} or not?
18:26:07 * oerjan concludes that his theory of roman numeral look-and-say implies all sequences have an asymptotic growth rate given by the unique real solution to x^19 = x^8 + x^5 + x^2 + 1.
18:26:16 <ais523> I don't think it matters
18:26:22 <ais523> probably yes, but I don't really care
18:26:33 <elliott> there's only two substituted uses of it
18:26:36 <elliott> so I'll de-subst them, I suppose
18:26:51 <elliott> hey, I can made {{unsigned}} work with a history line
18:26:55 <elliott> without requiring the | divider
18:27:57 <oerjan> although i still have to correct the timezone :(
18:28:10 -!- MoALTz has joined.
18:28:43 <elliott> oerjan: I just set the wiki to UTC
18:28:56 <elliott> no reason for comments and recent changes to be in different timezones
18:29:21 * oerjan elliott may have a point
18:34:29 <elliott> ais523: don't spoil the answer for me, btw
18:35:56 <elliott> ais523: I'm trying to do some template trickery I know is possible, but not how
18:35:59 <elliott> but I want to figure it out myself
18:37:54 <Sgeo> "This type of wallhack is rampant. Even for the most popular of games."
18:38:10 <elliott> ais523: (it's related to substitution)
18:38:12 <Sgeo> NO SHIT SHERLOCK OF COURSE THERE ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE MODIFICATIONS OF MORE POPULAR GAMES
18:38:43 <ais523> Sgeo: I think the implication is that the developers of popular games have more motivation to stop cheating
18:39:19 <cheater> Sgeo: fifa 2010 vs nethack
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18:40:18 * oerjan notes wolfram alpha factorizes x^2 - x + 1 out of that polynomial
18:40:52 <oerjan> and has that annoying "register to copy and paste" that has been mentioned before
18:41:29 <elliott> * oerjan concludes that his theory of roman numeral look-and-say implies all sequences have an asymptotic growth rate given by the unique real solution to x^19 = x^8 + x^5 + x^2 + 1.
18:41:46 <oerjan> for roman numeral look-and-say, yes
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18:44:02 <elliott> oerjan: hands off the new language, that wikifying is _mine_
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18:48:26 <oerjan> > iterate (\x -> (x^8 + x^5 + x^2 + 1)**(1/19)) 1.1
18:48:27 <lambdabot> [1.1,1.0985457517719988,1.0981920311715194,1.0981060808817724,1.09808520098...
18:48:48 <oerjan> > drop 10 $ iterate (\x -> (x^8 + x^5 + x^2 + 1)**(1/19)) 1.1
18:48:49 <lambdabot> [1.098078502947138,1.0980785019051384,1.0980785016520256,1.0980785015905417...
18:49:03 <oerjan> > drop 20 $ iterate (\x -> (x^8 + x^5 + x^2 + 1)**(1/19)) 1.1
18:49:04 <lambdabot> [1.0980785015708157,1.098078501570815,1.0980785015708148,1.0980785015708145...
18:49:06 <elliott> perl -pe 's/<br \/>//; s/-/<\/code> || /; s/^/|-\n| <code>/'
18:50:01 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/ProgFk WIKIF'YYYD
18:50:28 <elliott> ais523: what's the trick to creating a template that behaves specially when substed?
18:50:43 <ais523> oh, I don't think there is one
18:50:56 <elliott> all the deletion templates yell at you if you do that, f.e.
18:51:12 <elliott> and I know there's a special trick based on it you can do that makes substing a template actually turn into a non-substed transclusion
18:51:13 <oerjan> > drop 50 $ iterate (\x -> (x^8 + x^5 + x^2 + 1)**(1/19)) 1.1
18:51:14 <lambdabot> [1.0980785015708145,1.0980785015708145,1.0980785015708145,1.098078501570814...
18:51:19 <elliott> which is cute enough that I want to know how it works
18:51:28 <ais523> you could use a template like {{!}}, I guess, that generates a | when substed
18:51:34 <ais523> and makes it change the parameres to another call
18:51:57 <elliott> ais523: yes, unfortunately #if and #ifeq don't seem to work properly, I guess you need the equivalent of qif
18:53:10 <ion> > map snd . dropWhile ((>= 1e-12) . uncurry (-)) . (zip <*> tail) . iterate (\x -> (x^8 + x^5 + x^2 + 1)**(1/19)) $ 1.1
18:53:12 <lambdabot> [1.0980785015710974,1.0980785015708834,1.0980785015708314,1.098078501570818...
18:53:32 <ion> > map snd . dropWhile ((>= 1e-24) . uncurry (-)) . (zip <*> tail) . iterate (\x -> (x^8 + x^5 + x^2 + 1)**(1/19)) $ 1.1
18:53:33 <lambdabot> [1.0980785015708145,1.0980785015708145,1.0980785015708145,1.098078501570814...
18:54:18 <elliott> (diff | hist) . . N DBFV!; 18:50 . . (+1,320) . . David.werecat (Talk | contribs | block) (DBFV! is a language by David Catt where each line is a separate function.)
18:54:28 * Sgeo wonders if MC will work on this machine
18:54:28 <elliott> ais523: oh dear, remember Pegasus adding a billion languages in three minutes?
18:54:36 <elliott> I can only wikify so fast...
18:57:53 <elliott> ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Parnassus might jog your memory
18:58:05 <elliott> and http://esolangs.org/wiki/Libertas
18:58:36 <elliott> hmm, our style guide is kind of crazy
18:58:39 <elliott> "Only use bold for the title of an article, and only the first time it appears."
18:59:49 <elliott> (diff | hist) . . N RunR; 18:59 . . (+2,683) . . David.werecat (Talk | contribs | block) (RunR is a language by David Catt where all instructions are in a two dimensional space known as "The Grid".)
19:00:18 * elliott wikifies then leaves an introduction message
19:00:20 <ion> ineiros: Well spoken.
19:02:38 <elliott> ais523: how do you uppercase a matched group in a regex substitution?
19:04:35 <elliott> oerjan: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Language_list&curid=960&diff=31702&oldid=31456
19:04:45 <elliott> oerjan: you get to teach another person the alphabet :)
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19:13:47 <Sgeo> elliott, they typoed the language name
19:14:21 <elliott> nortti: HackEgo does funny business to stop you doing that.
19:14:23 <oerjan> `run echo 'lambdabot: @time'
19:14:25 <elliott> Sgeo: (Are we being watched???)
19:14:42 <elliott> ok one second lemme whip up a quick botloop
19:14:59 <elliott> @where+ hackegoloop `cat lambdabotloop
19:15:06 <oerjan> it's _conceivable_ someone fixed that loophole...
19:15:07 <elliott> `run echo 'lambdabot: @where hackegoloop' >lambdabotloop
19:15:15 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:15:20 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:15:24 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:15:28 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:15:32 <elliott> Come on, ramp up before it gets killed.
19:15:32 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:15:36 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:15:55 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:15:58 * oerjan assumes elliott knows how to stop the loop
19:16:01 <elliott> This is the least dramatic botloop ever.
19:16:13 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:16:18 <elliott> I refuse to do it until it rises above the pace of a slow crawl :P
19:16:25 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:16:32 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:16:35 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:16:35 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:16:43 <elliott> Just savouring the flavour and textures.
19:16:51 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:16:54 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:16:56 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:17:00 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:17:09 <elliott> @where+ hackegoloop nowhere
19:17:14 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:17:17 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:17:33 <HackEgo> cat: lambdabotloop: No such file or directory
19:17:40 <lambdabot> I know nothing about asdlasldjkasdasd.
19:17:45 <elliott> @where+ hackegoloop I know nothing about hackegoloop.
19:17:50 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `lambdabotloop': No such file or directory
19:18:06 <HackEgo> cat: lambdabotloop: No such file or directory
19:18:09 <elliott> Definitely not the best botloop I've seen.
19:18:12 <HackEgo> cat: lambdabotloop: No such file or directory
19:18:14 <elliott> Though the after-effects are amusing.
19:18:21 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:18:24 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:18:31 <elliott> HackEgo really wants to know about hackegoloop.
19:18:44 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:18:51 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:19:16 <elliott> oerjan: It has to be done one more time.
19:19:49 <lambdabot> `run echo 'lambdabot: @where hackegoloop' >lambdabotloop
19:19:57 <HackEgo> cat: lambdabotloop: No such file or directory
19:20:02 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:20:06 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:20:09 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:20:11 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:20:15 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:20:19 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:20:25 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:20:29 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:20:33 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:20:35 <elliott> I think I just invented bot teledildonics.
19:20:37 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where hackegoloop
19:20:40 <HackEgo> cat: lambdabotloop: No such file or directory
19:20:50 <Sgeo> what is hackegoloop?
19:21:04 <HackEgo> cat: lambdabotloop: No such file or directory
19:21:07 * oerjan wonders what was self-creating about that
19:21:09 <elliott> @where+ hackegoloop I know nothing about hackegoloop.
19:21:13 <elliott> <lambdabot> `run echo 'lambdabot: @where hackegoloop' >lambdabotloop
19:21:14 <elliott> <lambdabot> `cat lambdabotloop
19:21:44 <elliott> (lambdabot admins can cause lambdabot to send messages.)
19:22:00 <elliott> (But I'd prefer it if you just assumed lambdabot decided to do that of its own accord.)
19:22:52 <nortti> `run echo '`car hackegoloop' > hackegoloop
19:23:03 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: car: not found
19:23:04 <elliott> oerjan: Did you know I can cause lambdabot to quit from IRC?
19:23:28 <nortti> `run echo '`cat hackegoloop' > hackegoloop
19:23:56 <ion> Did you know I can cause ion to quit from IRC?
19:24:04 <ion> Oh, wait. I can’t, actually. He’s addicted.
19:24:12 <elliott> (If I hadn't added that X...)
19:24:38 <oerjan> elliott: you have mentioned
19:24:56 <elliott> shachaf: I just decided to deadmin you.
19:26:06 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9981756/missing-dates-programfrom-text-file
19:26:08 <elliott> plz keep in mind the leap years
19:26:54 <HackEgo> date: invalid date `@1333333337'
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19:30:31 <HackEgo> Mon Apr 2 02:22:17 UTC 2012
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19:32:35 <elliott> oerjan: i'm gaining on your editcount >:D
19:34:04 <elliott> including deleted revisions:
19:34:34 <oerjan> just as well to get it over with.
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19:36:27 <elliott> ais523: hey, surely there's a MediaWiki extension for marking names as to be displayed in lowercase?
19:36:49 <ais523> perhaps, I guess you can check
19:37:12 <elliott> hmm, I did, and they all seem to involve hideous source mods; I would think you could simply monkeypatch a method of the User class
19:37:16 <elliott> assuming PHP can do monkeypatching
19:37:53 <elliott> oh, I could even make it use the display title of their user page, appropriately scrubbed, to determine the preferred capitalisation
19:38:46 <elliott> (except then ais523 would have to lose his user page gag for it to work :))
19:39:24 <ais523> it's not /that/ good a gag
19:40:00 <elliott> actually, I suppose it'd be technically incorrect if we got that, since the technical limitations would be removed
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19:43:53 <elliott> ais523: do you want to hear a joke?
19:44:04 <ais523> not particularly, I guess
19:44:07 <ais523> but you're probably going to tell it anyway
19:44:30 <elliott> Do you want to hear a secret? None of my jokes are actually jokes.
19:45:03 <shachaf> elliott: Where does a general keep his armies?
19:46:21 <shachaf> That's probably the best joke.
19:49:06 <shachaf> <elliott> But it's not a very good joke. Hence there are no good jokes.
19:50:11 <shachaf> I like all the words mathematicians have invented that all mean "therefore".
19:50:24 <shachaf> Probably to make some long proofs less boring or something.
19:51:17 <shachaf> hence thence whence therefore thus so implies ergo then
19:51:34 <lambdabot> <shachaf> @msg #esoteric But it's not a very good joke. Hence there are no good jokes.
19:51:53 <olsner> hmm, I wonder if there's a counterpart of summa summarum in english?
19:51:56 <elliott> Is that a high enough score?
19:52:18 <olsner> hmm... that should be a statement about me wondering, not a question
19:52:40 -!- zzo38 has set topic: Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe was here (while you weren't here) | Feynman's Trivial Theorem: It's trivial! It's trivial! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:52:46 <oerjan> yeah, why would you end a non-question with a question mark.
19:53:11 <zzo38> Perhaps the topic message is still not overfull
19:53:24 <oerjan> olsner: well stop that?
19:53:36 <olsner> oerjan: do you want me to stop.
19:54:29 <shachaf> As Magical Mr. Mistoffelees!
19:54:44 <zzo38> (Yes, both Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe and Richard Feynman were here while you weren't looking)
19:54:54 <elliott> <shachaf> elliott: 4 what?
19:55:04 <elliott> shachaf: Synonyms of "therefore" in your list that I've used in SO answers.
19:55:35 <shachaf> You'll never make it in the real mathematics world, kid.
19:55:57 <oerjan> accordingly, we may conclude there are always more synonyms.
19:56:07 -!- zzo38 has set topic: Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe was here (while you weren't here) | Richard Feynman was also here | Feynman's Trivial Theorem: It's trivial! It's trivial! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:56:30 <shachaf> zzo38: Richard Feynman was not here.
19:56:31 -!- oerjan has set topic: Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe was here (while you weren't here) | Richard Feynman was also here | Zombie Feynman's Trivial Theorem: It's trivial! It's trivial! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:57:05 <shachaf> elliott: That list was incomplete, of course.
19:57:25 <shachaf> accordingly consequently wherefore
19:57:39 <elliott> I've used "Accordingly" too, I think.
19:58:10 <zzo38> (But neither was the fictional character Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe; and anyways the topic message can contain these kind of strange things even if not true about Feynman not being in here today)
19:58:37 <shachaf> olsner: Now you're stretching it.
19:58:46 <shachaf> By the way, olsner = oerjan, right?
19:58:59 <olsner> facets of the scandinavian hivemind
19:59:06 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Mon Apr 2 20:59:02
19:59:10 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Mon Apr 2 20:59:07
19:59:29 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: bid dice elite id let list time
20:00:17 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Mon Apr 2 21:59:43 2012
20:00:34 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: fact faq free time
20:01:06 <shachaf> elliott: You're a terrible admin.
20:01:20 <zzo38> @admin - lambdabot
20:01:22 <olsner> is elliott an admin of the lambdabot.
20:01:54 <elliott> Despite appearances, shachaf isn't.
20:02:14 -!- augur has joined.
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20:03:30 <zzo38> However, you should not set my name to admin (you didn't; because of a space; but nevertheless) because I do not have nick protection set on my account
20:03:40 <elliott> shachaf: Please stop that.
20:03:58 <shachaf> zzo38: At this point I doubt that'll make much difference.
20:04:01 <elliott> zzo38: Neither do most of the other admins, which is why shachaf keeps using admin commands.
20:04:37 <shachaf> zzo38: You should have nick protection set on your account.
20:05:08 <shachaf> zzo38: What if some really weird person starts pretending to be you?
20:05:30 <olsner> I think it'd be quite obvious if he suddenly became that normal
20:07:01 -!- MoALTz__ has joined.
20:07:45 <elliott> "That's all well and good Chris, but shouldn't you have written that site in Happstack?" -- Michael Snoyman
20:07:53 <zzo38> If I ever need to become administration of lambdabot or anything like that I will set nick protection; but currently I have no need to be such administrations and so on, so I will just leave it how it is
20:08:38 <elliott> zzo38: Nick protection wouldn't help, anyway.
20:08:40 <elliott> It only kicks in after 30s.
20:08:43 -!- nortti has joined.
20:08:44 <RocketJSquirrel> Stealing zzo38's nick would be like a Turing test. Can YOU behave like zzo?
20:08:44 <elliott> 30s is quite enough time to type "@admin + shachaf".
20:09:07 <shachaf> elliott: Are you able to send /msgs before it kicks in?
20:09:19 <shachaf> RocketJSquirrel: That sounds like a fun game.
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20:09:26 <shachaf> zzo38: Teach me how to be like you.
20:09:29 <elliott> shachaf: You can send @admin + in public...
20:09:36 <nortti> dmitry.co/index.php?p=./04.Thoughts/07.+Linux+on+8bit
20:09:47 <oerjan> Some people might be able to behave like zzo if they want to. Then again, some people might not.
20:10:01 <elliott> nortti: Ooool- wait, did I link that in here...
20:10:07 <elliott> oerjan: F- obviously wrong
20:10:15 <oerjan> WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
20:10:16 <shachaf> oerjan: Not want to or not be able to?
20:10:49 <oerjan> elliott: is whooshing shachaf good or bad there
20:10:57 <zzo38> Perhaps, they should set lambdabot to +R mode and then disallow public administration commands; that might work.
20:11:19 <olsner> hmm, that's not really linux on 8-bit though, it's just linux on emulated 32-bit
20:11:24 <shachaf> oerjan: I understood that you were behaving like zzo38 there.
20:11:38 <elliott> olsner: What's the difference, man?
20:11:40 <oerjan> OK it is good that you understood that.
20:11:41 <olsner> approximately like saying linux on cpu is linux on 1-bit because it's all transistors
20:11:42 <shachaf> oerjan: I responded in the same way that I would've responded to zzo38 if he had said it instead of you.
20:13:22 <RocketJSquirrel> nortti: "The raw video is in a few segments, since I had to change camera batteries a few times while filming." X-D
20:14:07 <nortti> "It takes about 2 hours to boot to bash
20:15:54 <zzo38> But, someone without an account might want to send queries to lambdabot anyways
20:17:40 <elliott> It would be easy enough for lambdabot just to check whois.
20:18:26 <nortti> elliott: what if you use different name on the wiki?
20:19:12 <zzo38> elliott: Yes. It is what I was thinking of next
20:20:00 <zzo38> (I think there is the 330 line to indicate if you are loggedi n)
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20:22:51 <elliott> <nortti> elliott: what if you use different name on the wiki?
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20:32:00 <elliott> rip lambdabot, "we missed u"
20:32:10 <shachaf> elliott: What did you just do to #haskell?
20:32:56 <shachaf> <lambdabot> "i hate u sulamit haskell" -- eliot
20:33:16 <shachaf> elliott: Whoa, man. You call it that too?
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20:36:04 <oerjan> apparently it's hebrew
20:36:23 <shachaf> Alternatively, "little ladder".
20:36:46 <elliott> More like paamyiamyiaymaim neukeudedokaytayim am i right
20:36:47 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9972598/haskell-warp-and-ajax
20:40:42 * oerjan tries to look up sulamit[th]? and refuels his disgust for web dictionaries that give google hits for words they don't actually have definitions for
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20:44:27 <oerjan> that + definition brought me to a page with no definition, a blocked popup and an annoying non-blocked popup which showed up when i tried to click "show all definitions"
20:45:25 <zzo38> Did you try Wiktionary?
20:45:49 <myndzi\> does linux routing count as an esoteric language? ;)
20:45:56 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
20:45:58 <shachaf> O, and you should try Google Translate too if you tried Wiktionary and it did not work.
20:46:06 -!- Deewiant has joined.
20:46:23 <oerjan> i found a place glosbe.com which had a definition
20:46:31 <zzo38> There is also the internet dictionary service, but as far as I know that is English only
20:46:37 <ais523> haha, proggit's arguing over what should happen if you hash NaN
20:46:39 <oerjan> but what does that have to do with the biblical meaning
20:47:09 <ais523> I /actually/ think NaN is the only possible return value
20:50:07 <zzo38> Is this good now? class Typeable x => NodeClass x where { showNode :: x -> String; hRender :: x -> Node -> RenderPos -> (PageObjects, RenderPos); vRender :: x -> Node -> RenderPos -> (PageObjects, RenderPos); hPackNode :: x -> ([Node], Glue, Dimen, Dimen, [Node]); vPackNode :: x -> ([Node], Glue, Dimen, Dimen); nodePenalty :: x -> Maybe Int;
20:50:35 <elliott> ais523: fun fact: there are 3295 users with no undeleted edits and more than zero deleted edits
20:50:45 <elliott> I just wish there weren't a handful of that set that aren't spambots...
20:50:56 <zzo38> nodeWidth :: x -> Dimen; nodeHeight :: x -> Dimen; nodeDepth :: x -> Dimen; nodeGlueSet :: x -> GlueSet; isNodeDiscardable :: x -> Bool; traverseBox :: Applicative f => (Node -> f Node) -> x -> f Node; showNode _ = "Node;"; hRender x _ y = ([], y + toRenderPos (nodeWidth x)); vRender x _ y = ([], y + toRenderPos (nodeHeight x + nodeDepth x)); hPackNode x = ([Node x], fixedGlue (nodeWidth x), nodeHeight x, nodeDepth x, []);
20:51:35 <zzo38> vPackNode x = ([Node x], fixedGlue (nodeHeight x), nodeDepth x, nodeWidth x); nodePenalty _ = Nothing; nodeWidth _ = 0; nodeHeight _ = 0; nodeDepth _ = 0; nodeGlueSet _ = GlueSet 0 Finite Stretching; isNodeDiscardable _ = False; traverseBox f = f . wrapNode; };
20:51:58 <shachaf> elliott: Fun fact: If you edit the esolang wiki, you are by definition a spambot.
20:52:24 <fungot> SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM ...too much output!
20:52:43 <elliott> shachaf: Have you ever considered saying something that isn't cheap snark?
20:52:53 <fungot> shachaf: just when i tottered to my feet and began to stagger fnord toward the bottom of the pedestal. the fnord scarf is found on a crag in the dark. it was then that madness took me utterly. an instant later, and i followed them. the phrase was just this: ' fnord! you are off! send back earth's gods to their haunts on unknown kadath whom he sought. when he took down the receiver in the library once more, i feared, had come to
20:52:55 <shachaf> Wait, how do you make fungot talk?
20:52:56 <fungot> shachaf: seen one ( for that fabled father of shantaks in the king's dome is fed in the dark. drowsiness, however, the short distance to the right, so that he had
20:52:56 <fungot> shachaf: but i havent told you the whole story. here i found what seemed much like that by which i had brought in a mechanic from a neighbouring all-night garage, we learned that nothing could be done about those rats. he would be properly confined. if something graver appeared, and before i could investigate there came a
20:53:22 <shachaf> elliott: Yes, but you gotta stay competitive in this channel, you know?
20:53:45 <oerjan> competing with elliott? madness!
20:53:54 <shachaf> elliott: It's an elliott-eat-everybody world out there.
20:55:01 <shachaf> oerjan: I agree -- there's no way I can beat elliott on the cheap snarks.
20:55:07 <shachaf> oerjan: But at least I can stay alive.
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21:00:03 <elliott> oerjan: there's some kind of rule against putting five languages on the wiki per day, right? :)
21:01:01 <elliott> ais523: grr, another joke language with other categories on it
21:01:07 <elliott> ais523: did we figure out what to do about all that?
21:03:13 <elliott> is “calling functions in data structure” possible in haskell?
21:04:31 <oerjan> well you could say that's sort of what lazy evaluation is
21:04:55 <elliott> oerjan: note the smart quotes, it's an SO question title :P
21:05:21 <ais523> I see no reason why you couldn't make a tuple of functions
21:05:26 <ais523> although I may have misunderstood the questino
21:05:44 <ais523> and the smart quotes are indistinguishable from straight quotes in this font and font size, unless they kern differently
21:05:49 <oerjan> questinos, like questions, except whizzing past at near lightspeed
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21:33:43 <elliott> (diff | hist) . . N Robol(in); 21:23 . . (+2,731) . . David.werecat (Talk | contribs | block) (Created Page)
21:33:56 <elliott> "Robol(in) is an incomplete specification by David Catt (user:David.werecat). It will probably never be updated or implemented."
21:34:13 <elliott> ais523: wait, didn't we agree that personal very-sketchy WIPs aren't appropriate for articlespace?
21:34:44 <ais523> we agreed that they were inappropriate for the list of ideas
21:34:51 <ais523> although I have no particular reason to want them in articlespace
21:36:56 <elliott> oerjan: work in phantom hoovers?
21:37:07 <elliott> those are all bricks ready to become brains
21:38:29 <elliott> ais523: I approve of your punishment
21:39:08 <ais523> I'm not sure what it actually does, but that's part of the un
21:39:33 <ais523> I was originally planning to do an exile judged to increase your reregistration timeout by one day, but it seems I can't do that
21:42:36 -!- elly_ has changed nick to elly.
21:43:13 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9965043/i-have-a-troubles-in-basic-about-the-codes "Did I put MISMATCH in the wrong place?"
21:47:21 -!- augur has joined.
21:52:00 <elliott> O, it makes a sad face, see?
21:52:13 <elliott> (diff | hist) . . N ELANG; 21:50 . . (+4,740) . . David.werecat (Talk | contribs | block) (Created Page)
21:52:29 <elliott> I assign oerjan to clean up http://esolangs.org/wiki/ELANG, I've done far too many for one day
21:55:50 <elliott> Of course you realise, this means war.
22:01:41 <elliott> oerjan: hey how long has /// been featured language.
22:01:47 <elliott> is it two weeks yet. are we keeping them two weeks or a month.
22:02:08 <oerjan> i don't know, but you're a day late if you want deadfish next.
22:02:28 <elliott> oerjan: ...god dammit, that would have been perfect.
22:02:41 <elliott> especially since it'd align things to nice even numbers if we run the languages for a month.
22:02:47 <elliott> WHY DIDN'T YOU SUGGEST THAT AT THE TIME ;__;
22:04:01 <oerjan> elliott: i _did_, you just didn't logread properly.
22:05:02 <elliott> oerjan: i could block you, you know :P
22:05:22 <oerjan> i could ban you, you know :P
22:06:20 <elliott> ais523: it's more surprising for esolang's real april fool's joke to be a day late, right?
22:06:24 <elliott> everyone's guard is down on april 2
22:06:36 <ais523> it's not an april fools' joke then
22:06:38 <elliott> (look out for my new 10-volume work-in-progress, The Art of Rationalisation)
22:06:53 <zzo38> Do you think the functions for the NodeClass for DVI typesetting is good enough by now?
22:07:08 <elliott> hmm, it went up early in the morning 14 days ago
22:07:16 <elliott> so now is actually perfect for two weeks
22:07:22 <elliott> oerjan: are we doing two weeks or a month, which is best, "hlep"
22:09:06 <oerjan> IT'S TOO LATE WE'RE ALL DOOMED
22:09:14 <elliott> HL;EP!!!!!! 2 WEEKS OR MONTH HEPL
22:10:12 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9983840/what-are-the-pros-and-cons-of-enumerators-vs-conduits-vs-pipes can you say "not constructive"?
22:10:36 <elliott> oerjan: ok but won't we run out
22:10:47 <elliott> that's 26 languages PER YEAR!!!
22:10:54 <elliott> are there even 26 good esolangs??
22:10:58 <elliott> ais523 are there 26 good esolangs
22:11:15 <oerjan> OK RECONSIDERATION: 2 MONTHS
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22:11:53 <shachaf> elliott: Do you think the functions for the NodeClass for DVI typesetting is good enough by now?
22:12:06 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
22:12:10 <ais523> or do what some wikis do, weekly but with repeats every now and then
22:12:43 <elliott> ais523: a month is probably best for supply, but it seems to me like the /// featured language is getting old already.
22:12:56 <elliott> at least the idea of it being up another repeat of the period it already has seems awfully stale.
22:13:48 -!- zzo38 has left.
22:14:06 <elliott> well, i'm impatient and i want to see deadfish on the main page
22:14:34 <elliott> oerjan: guess who has to help me write a blurb for [[Deadfish]]
22:14:56 <elliott> <CTCP>ACTION vaguely considers just copying "Deadfish has a way to output things but it has no way to input them! It has only a few commands, only four in total. It is also case-sensitive, and can deal only with integer values when adding or subtracting, however once squared this number increases greatly! You can have several commands per line, at least in the C implementation. Errors are not acknowledged the shell simply adds a newline character! Anyth
22:15:22 <elliott> but that might give people the wrong impression as to the quality standards of the wiki :P
22:15:30 <elliott> (ok, the right impression, but the wrong right impression)
22:15:34 <oerjan> what do you me... right
22:16:07 <oerjan> M VWL KS JST STPPD WRKNG, Y S
22:16:55 <elliott> ais523: ok, /you/ help me write a blurb for Deadfish
22:17:20 <ais523> also, I'd have the wrong attitude
22:17:39 <shachaf> elliott: Can I write the blurb for Deathfish?
22:17:46 <shachaf> I'd write such a good blurb.
22:18:07 <elliott> shachaf: it's not meant to be good
22:18:18 <shachaf> What if it's bad in the right way?
22:18:34 <ais523> something like "Deadfish is a language originally created as a joke, featuring an internal state of only one integer, that can be decremented, incremented, squared or output. Although incrementing 255 produces 0, higher integers can be produced via squaring. The language became strangely popular, with a large range of interpreters for it written in a range of languages, perhaps due to its simplicity."
22:18:40 <oerjan> oh, it's a norwegian encyclopedia
22:18:48 <ais523> see, now you'll have to write a better blurb than that
22:18:54 <ais523> or otherwise you'll have to use mine, and that'd be terrible
22:18:58 * oerjan has an old paper version stored away
22:19:42 <elliott> oerjan: ic, apparently it is fudding against wikipedia (im reading no.wikipedia's village pump for some reason)
22:20:18 <oerjan> elliott: well yes it's been in trouble for a while
22:21:28 <oerjan> While no one was looking, Jonathan Todd Skinner invented Deadfish. Deadfish can increment 40 times. That's as many as four tens. And that's terrible.
22:22:40 <shachaf> Deadfish can increment 255 times. That's as many as 255 1s.
22:22:45 <oerjan> It can also square, decrement and print. It's catchphrase is "IMPLEMENTATIONS, IMPLEMENTATIONS, IMPLEMENTATIONS".
22:23:22 <shachaf> *Someone* in this channel isn't too lazy to factor numbers.
22:23:33 <shachaf> Or maybe he is too lazy, and just named two random numbers that sound approximately right.
22:24:26 * Sgeo hugs poor lambdabot
22:24:31 <shachaf> It says it's not perl, but then runs Perl.
22:24:47 <Sgeo> ....because lambdabot isn't here
22:24:52 <Sgeo> Did elliott crash lambdabot?
22:25:09 <shachaf> <elliott> /msg lambdabot @quit
22:25:26 <elliott> but as shachaf astutely points out I don't need to crash lambdabot to make it go away
22:25:30 <elliott> i didn't actually do that though
22:25:47 <shachaf> elliott: I'm pretty sure @quit counts as crashing.
22:25:50 <shachaf> It's premature terminating.
22:26:13 <oerjan> Deadfish is a very environmentally friendly language, if you like bad smell.
22:26:17 <elliott> Are you saying you're one of those anti-abortion activists?
22:27:13 <oerjan> Deadfish is the evil mutated offspring of HQ9+.
22:29:12 <elliott> "Geany is the best open source tool for programmers. But not available for mac." -- answer to question "Mac text/code editor"
22:29:27 <oerjan> A truly compliant Deadfish implementation cannot be aborted.
22:30:50 <oerjan> The definition of an esolang is a language in which implementing Deadfish is at least somewhat tricky.
22:31:05 <Sgeo> Trying to convince myself that Home Row is TC. I mean, it looks it, looks similar enough to BF, but
22:31:06 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:31:19 <Sgeo> I see a trivial way to translate to BF but that's the wrong direction
22:31:38 <elliott> j might be able to interact with l in a way to produce "overlapping" loops
22:31:44 <elliott> jl....l.....l or something
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22:32:02 <ais523> ooh, now I have an idea for an esolang
22:32:11 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
22:32:22 <ais523> tape-based, with < > + - from BF, and a "jump to start if nonzero" for program control
22:32:32 <ais523> the interesting thing would be computational class
22:32:52 <Sgeo> Why does this sound vaguely familiar?
22:32:56 <elliott> IIRC, [prog] is enough for TCness
22:33:09 <elliott> [prog] with some additional instruction in prog is enough or something
22:34:35 <elliott> ais523: anyway, that's not enough, I don't think
22:34:56 <elliott> ais523: I don't think there's any way to meaningfully skip code
22:35:07 <ais523> elliott: exactly, that's the whole point
22:35:11 <ais523> you have to undo it instead
22:35:12 <elliott> all you can do is go back to the start, which basically means that at the first "branching" point, you're stuck
22:35:16 <ais523> < > + - are all reversible
22:35:39 <elliott> OK, put this on the wiki, it's great
22:35:46 <ais523> there'd be a trivial translation from BF if "jump to start if nonzero" were reversible, but it isn't
22:35:56 <ais523> which is the sticking point
22:36:20 <ais523> I shall call it Homing Pigeon
22:36:28 <ais523> unless someone tells me that that's a stupid name
22:36:30 <ais523> and probably even then
22:36:50 <elliott> ais523: you should call it brainfuck
22:36:51 <shachaf> elliott: Have you ever considered saying something that isn't cheap snark?
22:36:57 <elliott> whichever one you were planning on
22:37:14 <ais523> I was going to make that one have the same commands as bf, though
22:37:24 <elliott> yes, but that'll be less confusing
22:37:26 <elliott> since nobody will talk about it
22:37:36 <elliott> (if you go with that name, put it at [[Brainfuck (ais523)]], obviously)
22:37:48 <ais523> I was going to put it at [[Brainfuck (capital B)]]
22:37:56 <shachaf> You should call it Elliott.
22:38:02 <shachaf> Is there a langauge called Elliott?
22:38:05 <elliott> ais523: but we have precedent for [[Language (author)]]!
22:38:11 <ais523> shachaf: there's Elliottcraft
22:38:15 <ais523> elliott: but the name isn't the same
22:38:18 <shachaf> ais523: Haven't Hird of it.
22:38:20 <ais523> just the software can't tell them apart
22:38:30 <ais523> shachaf: it's a three-dimensional bully automaton
22:38:36 <elliott> ais523: how do you know Clue's and Clue's names are the same?
22:38:37 <ais523> with somewhat complex semantics
22:38:49 <ais523> I'm not sure it's possible to implement efficiently, sadly
22:39:25 <ais523> elliott: and string comparison
22:39:26 <elliott> I suppose you can call it Homing Pigeon if you want, but how many BF derivatives can you expect to make in one life, really?
22:39:38 <ais523> I've already made two!
22:39:39 <elliott> ais523: that's as biased as MediaWiki title comparison!
22:39:46 <shachaf> I have an exciting idea for a BF derivative.
22:39:49 <ais523> (reversible BF, and DoFucK)
22:40:13 <elliott> ais523: what about Norfuck?
22:40:15 <elliott> or is that not a BF derivative?
22:40:25 <elliott> ais523: also, kick shachaf before he completes
22:40:29 <elliott> it's for his own brickbrain protection
22:40:36 <elliott> there's not much time! hurry!
22:40:50 <elliott> ais523: HE'LL SEE THE LOGS
22:41:00 <shachaf> Wait, I forgot about input and output.
22:41:29 <fungot> shachaf: faint remnant must still lurk down there in the ancient partitions were the worst. i tried fnord but the constant ravings of the two rooms or the hall below me.
22:41:29 <elliott> ais523: I'm pretty sure that counts as being complicit to murder
22:41:58 <shachaf> #esoteric logs are now a BF derivative.
22:42:13 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft* nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
22:42:28 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
22:42:38 <fungot> ais523: they say that the only heavenly body to influence this game." " my dear chap, right on time! we'll just have lunch, and, flinging it away, crying out for grid bugs only exist in a little while even more powerful of all nations, by michael capuzzo)
22:44:24 <fungot> Selected style: qwantz (Dinosaur Comics transcriptions 2003-2011)
22:44:29 <fungot> elliott: and i think to myself: this is a black market, t-rex? there are already a lot, but they're always a good time, because he is! that's why it is such a good joke! you are using the wrong words. i counted myself among the most un-satisfying i'd ever tell him that, of all places, t-rex, but t-rex explained how the bank that only i don't wear pants, so he put it on his stove and heated it, and it got great names for everyon
22:48:54 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:49:21 <zzo38> Now I have sent package http://hackage.haskell.org/package/dvi-processing-0.1 on Haskell you can please make DVI programming too.
22:49:23 <elliott> ais523: what's the best UK ISP? have I asked you that yet?
22:49:35 <ais523> I don't think you have
22:49:43 <ais523> but from people I've seen talk about it, there are exactly two good ones
22:49:44 <shachaf> zzo38: Can I please make DVI programming too?
22:49:47 <ais523> sadly I can't remember which, though
22:49:58 <zzo38> shachaf: Do you have Haskell? If so, then you can try to do so.
22:50:11 <shachaf> zzo38: Can I use lambdabot?
22:50:18 <elliott> ais523: is one of them Andrews & Arnold (AAISP)?
22:50:30 <zzo38> shachaf: Not for this purpose; lambdabot does not have this package, as far as I know
22:50:43 <ais523> I don't think I've heard of it, so possibly no?
22:50:43 <shachaf> zzo38: What's the best UK ISP?
22:50:48 <ais523> but I'm really not confident in that answer
22:50:54 <shachaf> zzo38: What if I don't have Haskell? All I have is GHC.
22:51:16 <zzo38> shachaf: GHC is OK; it works with GHC.
22:51:25 <ais523> btw, I can tell you that Virgin Media's reputation is pretty accurate; fast and good for the typical customer's needs (i.e. Windows, IPv4, no inbound traffic…) when it's working, and reasonably incompetent at fixing it when it goes wrong
22:51:26 <zzo38> And I don't know what is best UK ISP; I do not live in UK.
22:51:34 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: 42).
22:51:35 <shachaf> zzo38: Isn't Canada the UK?
22:51:37 <ais523> oh, and ja.net is amazing as usual, but is not a consumer ISP
22:51:41 <elliott> ais523: Don't Virgin shape torrent traffic?
22:52:07 <ais523> elliott: quite possibly
22:52:10 <elliott> ais523: hmm, is the fact that www.ja.net prompts me before giving me a cookie your fault?
22:52:14 <ais523> it doesn't seem to mind multi-gigabyte downloads, though
22:52:22 <elliott> also, Virgin Media aren't really an option for me, we don't get cable
22:52:27 <ais523> and maybe not my fault specifically, but the fault of thousands like me
22:52:32 <elliott> and their DSL services are... not competitive (and apparently crap)
22:52:38 <elliott> ais523: there aren't thousands of people like you
22:52:52 <ais523> in that respect, at least ;)
22:53:31 <elliott> ais523: well, do any of Sky, AAISP, Zen and XILO (Uno) ring bells? :P
22:53:39 <elliott> (if Sky doesn't, I'm going to ask you what rock you live under)
22:53:49 <ais523> not in that respect; I'm aware of Sky, but didn't know they did internet
22:53:52 <ais523> although it's not surprising
22:53:57 <elliott> ais523: oh, I suspect one of the ones you counted as good were probably Be
22:54:02 <elliott> who aren't available here, annoyingly
22:54:12 <shachaf> The Sky is Blue in California.
22:54:14 <ais523> this was secondhand information in the first place
22:54:16 <ais523> and I can't rememebr it
22:54:17 <shachaf> It's probably Grey in UKia.
22:54:20 <ais523> hmm, were 1&1 the others?
22:54:25 <elliott> the only reason I'm considering Sky is because (a) it's really cheap if you have Sky TV (7.50 pounds/mo), and (b) they don't shape or throttle traffic
22:54:38 <elliott> the other ISPs are all rather less commercial
22:54:41 <ais523> if it's that cheap, it's worth trying it and seeing what went wrong
22:55:04 <elliott> do 1&1 even do internet access?
22:55:20 <ais523> shachaf: more like $15
22:55:25 <elliott> ais523: well, OK, 90 pounds is reasonable, but they do local-loop unbundling
22:55:41 <elliott> ais523: which means it'll cost $more to move off it to a non-LLU service
22:55:46 <elliott> (like most of the other options i'm considering)
22:55:58 <elliott> I think it's the cost of setting up a new BT line again, or something, like 90 pounds again or something, but I don't really know
22:56:15 <shachaf> @google 7.50 pounds in dollars
22:56:17 -!- lambdabot has joined.
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22:56:26 <ais523> (wrt shachaf and lambdabot)
22:56:33 <ais523> oh, that's not lambdabot
22:56:35 <ais523> it's shachaf pretending
22:57:07 <elliott> ais523: I don't believe you about 1&1
22:57:22 <ais523> elliott: I may be misremembering
22:57:26 <ais523> so not believing me is a good option
22:57:30 <elliott> I can't find anything on their website about it, at least :)
22:58:08 -!- kappabot has joined.
22:58:10 <ais523> I went to http://1and1.co.uk
22:58:16 <ais523> and the title was "1&1 Internet"
22:58:27 <kappabot> Title: Norway - the official site in the United States
22:58:30 <shachaf> @google what is norway, really?
22:58:33 <kappabot> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/columnists/article-185956/So-Norway-rich.html
22:58:34 <kappabot> Title: So why is Norway rich? | Mail Online
22:58:35 <ais523> but right, they seem to do serving rather than ISP stuff
22:58:45 <elliott> ais523: I would just go with AAISP (static IP, native IPv6, good pricing, very tech-savvy), but their usage pricing is annoying (one unit is 50 gigabytes offpeak, but only 2.5 gigabytes peak (9am-6pm mon-fri))
22:59:07 <elliott> (you purchase usage in "units")
22:59:09 <ais523> that's a weird peak time for home internet
22:59:14 <elliott> that might be reasonable, if I had a reasonable sleep schedule
22:59:19 <ais523> I'd have assumed that people would be at work then
22:59:24 <ais523> and thus not using the internet at home
22:59:27 <elliott> but since I don't, there's no guarantee I won't be downloading tons peaktime and not at all offpeak
22:59:46 <elliott> ais523: I think that's why you get much less bandwidth then
22:59:48 <ais523> do you go to school, btw?
22:59:53 <elliott> admittedly, it makes the "peak" nomenclature strange
23:00:31 <elliott> ais523: "I don't do drugs. I am drugs." --Salvador da Vinci
23:02:04 <shachaf> "I don't do school. I am school."
23:02:32 <shachaf> Do school, kids. Unless you want to end up like elliott.
23:03:55 <elliott> shachaf: kappabot is you, right?
23:04:11 -!- monqy has joined.
23:04:11 -!- kappabot has quit (Quit: requested).
23:04:55 -!- kappabot has joined.
23:05:09 <elliott> shachaf: By the way, I sent that right before your adminning arrived on my screen.
23:05:42 <shachaf> Thank you for depriving Freenode of valuable I Can't Believe It's Not Lambdabot(R) services
23:06:11 <ais523> whose bot is kappabot?
23:06:37 <shachaf> A free bot over an endofunctorgroupset.
23:06:45 <elliott> Can you make me a kappabot admin?
23:07:50 <monqy> what does kappabot do
23:07:52 -!- Jafet has joined.
23:07:59 <kappabot> monqy: you're my favourite monqy
23:08:38 <elliott> maybe I'll convince aaisp to offer me units that don't vary according to time
23:08:43 <shachaf> elliott: OK, I'm making you an admin so you can tell kappabot to @part when Cale comes back.
23:08:56 -!- Jafet1 has joined.
23:08:56 <shachaf> You have responsibility now.
23:09:42 <shachaf> I think it gets corrected to @offline.
23:10:00 <elliott> No, it only does edit distance of 1.
23:10:16 <shachaf> Don't you know your lambdabotology?
23:10:34 <kappabot> Local time for elliott is Tue Apr 3 00:10:13
23:10:38 <elliott> By the way, if it's going a little slow, it's because I did @listall.
23:11:09 <elliott> You can tune a fs, but you can't...
23:11:47 <elliott> shachaf: How come kappabot has a gazillion notices stored?
23:12:19 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:13:10 <shachaf> elliott: Can I commission a portrait from you? I want it to be titled "shachaf, paraphrased"
23:13:59 <elliott> ais523: What's the worst UK ISP?
23:14:13 <shachaf> elliott: I look like this:
23:14:20 <ais523> elliott: hmm, I'd guess someone like BT, but I don't know
23:14:51 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/sb/1.png
23:16:15 <shachaf> monqy: "monqy: You're ugly." -- elliott
23:17:12 * kappabot puts on her slapping gloves, and slaps elliott
23:18:32 <shachaf> 95.149.229.194 - - [02/Apr/2012:16:14:58 -0700] "GET /sb/1.png HTTP/1.1" 200 136338 "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64) AppleWebKit/535.19 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/18.0.1025.142 Safari/535.19"
23:18:37 <shachaf> 95.149.229.194 - - [02/Apr/2012:16:15:09 -0700] "GET /sb/ HTTP/1.1" 403 198 "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64) AppleWebKit/535.19 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/18.0.1025.142 Safari/535.19"
23:18:42 <shachaf> 95.149.229.194 - - [02/Apr/2012:16:15:11 -0700] "GET / HTTP/1.1" 200 437 "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64) AppleWebKit/535.19 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/18.0.1025.142 Safari/535.19"
23:18:48 <shachaf> Stop poking around my website, elliott.
23:20:07 <shachaf> elliott: Did you know your compute is broadcasting its IP address to every website that you connect to on the Internet?!
23:20:17 <shachaf> Install Bonzi Firewall today!
23:22:37 <elliott> shachaf: http://ompldr.org/vZDhvaA/shachef.png
23:23:03 <elliott> Wait, I forgot a background.
23:23:53 <monqy> does elliott have the most karma of anyone
23:24:00 <ais523> bleh, had to kill firefox
23:24:17 <ais523> website opened around 100 cookie-confirm dialog boxes, and they're all modal, and I couldn't figure out which was the most recent
23:27:16 <shachaf> pmichaud++ # so many karmas
23:29:05 <ais523> is kappabot using the same karma database as lambdabot? or does it monitor for karma changes in the same channels?
23:29:22 <shachaf> @which channels are you in kappabot
23:29:43 <kappabot> #esoteric #haskell #stackoverflow weird#
23:31:04 <shachaf> elliott: Put on your typeglasses.
23:31:35 <Sgeo> What's the weird# thing
23:31:50 <kappabot> #esoteric #haskell #haskell-blah weird#
23:32:03 <Sgeo> Some Unicode trick?
23:32:19 <shachaf> elliott: I *believe* the correct spelling is "paraphrozen".
23:32:29 <shachaf> "paraphrosen" in the UK, I guess.
23:32:37 <shachaf> Do you have freesers in the UK which freese things?
23:33:26 <elliott> Have I mentioned the GIMP is nearly impossible to use?
23:33:58 <elliott> who here thinks that haskell is one of the best languages. I do have one problem, it is not good for game development . do any of you know what the best language is other than c++
23:34:00 <shachaf> elliott: 16:32 < johannes__> who here thinks that haskell is one of the best languages. I do have one problem, it is not good for game development . do any of you know what the best language is other than c++
23:34:05 <kappabot> Come on, let's all slap shachaf
23:34:43 <shachaf> join shachaf x = shachaf (shachaf x)
23:35:11 <shachaf> elliott: Is that portrait finished yet?
23:36:02 <elliott> <johannes__> okay so i should use javanese. Can you give me a bit of code
23:38:34 <elliott> Gah, I've completely forgotten how to do this.
23:39:32 <Sgeo> I'm going to regret becoming involved
23:40:58 <elliott> shachaf: http://ompldr.org/vZDhvag/shachef.png
23:44:27 <elliott> (That was for <kappabot> http://i.imgur.com/ZUTx3.png.)
23:44:31 <elliott> (In case you didn't notice.)
23:44:55 <ais523> bleh, Linode has at least two highly objectionable terms in its ToS
23:45:05 <ais523> what other VPS people should I look at?
23:45:13 <ais523> oh, and one in their privacy policy too
23:45:23 <elliott> The VPSes suck, though. :p
23:45:36 <elliott> ais523: Imagine all the objectionable terms you've agreed to *without* reading them!
23:45:49 -!- kappabot has quit (Quit: requested).
23:45:50 <elliott> * lambdabot (~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com) has joined #haskell
23:45:57 <elliott> I regain power just as soon as I lose it!
23:46:14 <shachaf> <elliott> I regain powder just as soon as I lose it!
23:46:49 <elliott> I wonder if @quit + lambdabot typo-correction has ever lead to any accidents.
23:46:52 -!- Patashu has joined.
23:47:05 <ais523> oh, prgmr's are much better
23:47:14 <ais523> I wonder if anyone's ever chosen a VPS provider based on their ToS before?
23:47:18 <elliott> shachaf: You never thanked me for my finished portrait. :(
23:47:21 <shachaf> elliott: GUESS HOW MAN BANDWIDTHS I'M GETTING
23:47:24 <elliott> ais523: Stupid people, assuredly.
23:47:34 <elliott> shachaf: I don't need to hear about your "man bandwidth", sinner.
23:47:42 <shachaf> elliott: GUESS HOW MANY BANDWIDTHS I'M GETTING
23:48:20 <shachaf> It doesn't say M what, though. Megamicrobytes?
23:49:07 -!- lambdabot has joined.
23:49:07 <ais523> one thing that's really noticeable: linode give a lot more bandwidth relative to memory than prgmr do, who give a lot more memory relative to bandwidth
23:49:23 <shachaf> Length: 1332645499 (1.2G), 1330483498 (1.2G) remaining
23:49:27 <elliott> ais523: What were the objectionable terms, out of intense self-hatred?
23:49:31 <RocketJSquirrel> ais523: I'm faaaaaaaaaairly certain that prgmr doesn't actually meter bandwidth, they just have a number to throw around if they need to.
23:49:52 <shachaf> elliott: That's on the computer I'm using right now, by the way, not a VPS thing.
23:50:02 <ais523> elliott: indemnification; ability to change ToS at any time without warning; and keeping credit card numbers on file
23:50:07 <elliott> shachaf: Are you sure you mean megabits and not megabytes?
23:50:29 <elliott> ais523: I would expect that to be standard; standard; irrelevant
23:50:39 <elliott> The credit card system has no security.
23:50:48 <ais523> whereas prgmr just have a change at any time on the AUP, which is not quite as bad as changing it to something ridiculous would merely allow them to terminate the account, which they can do anyway
23:50:58 <ais523> elliott: but the problem is that if they have my CC number, they can charge me money without my explicit permission
23:51:13 <ais523> I'm not a fan of standing orders
23:51:27 <elliott> ais523: Yes. So can every single entity you have ever purchased anything with your credit card from.
23:51:31 <ais523> and even if indemnification is standard, it's ridiculous
23:52:00 <elliott> ais523: Anyway, there's a specific page to give them money.
23:52:01 <ais523> elliott: I'm not a fan of having to opt-out to paying someone money, rather than opting in
23:52:05 <elliott> Just pay in batch and they won't charge you.
23:52:22 <elliott> (As in, you can pay them $200 and they won't charge you for 10 months.)
23:52:33 <elliott> ais523: Besides, with prgmr you'll have to use PayPal.
23:52:36 <elliott> I'm sure you have moral objections to that.
23:52:46 -!- Jafet1 has changed nick to Jafet.
23:52:51 <ais523> seriously? how ridiculous
23:53:15 <elliott> Have you considered retreating into a cave and never doing anything ever again?
23:53:24 <ais523> time to look for someone else, I guess
23:53:33 <Jafet> Moral objections to paypal should not override pragmatic objections to the credit card verification system
23:53:49 <elliott> ais523 has no practical objections, only an infinite supply of moral objections.
23:53:55 * Jafet throws bitcoins in the air, metaphorically.
23:53:58 <ais523> Jafet: there are pragmatic objections to paypal too, such as the fact that they've closed accounts in the past without refunding the money in them
23:54:39 <Jafet> It's okay, they are a formally audited international banking sys... oh wait.
23:55:24 <elliott> ais523: By the way, there is not a single VPS provider on the planet who will both promise not to store your credit card, and not outsource their payments to asystem which won't promise not to store your credit card.
23:55:42 <elliott> ais523: Also, what are you talking about, "not legally"? You don't give Linode the right to charge you $3489394834 by giving them your credit card.
23:55:51 <shachaf> buy your vpses cheap from shachafvps
23:55:51 <elliott> So your objection to them being able to charge you money without your permission is nonsense.
23:55:56 <ais523> I don't mind if they outsource it, if the outsourced company doesn't allow them to charge to the credit card
23:56:03 <shachaf> i promise i won't store your credit card
23:56:04 <ais523> elliott: well, I'm giving them permission by signing up
23:56:14 <ais523> shachaf: do you run a VPS company?
23:56:26 <shachaf> ais523: very good cheap vps
23:56:36 <elliott> ais523: Yes, you're giving them permission to charge you $N/month.
23:56:55 <elliott> So, you are not giving Linode the ability to charge you money without your explicit permission any more than you do when buying anything with a credit card ever.
23:56:58 <ais523> I'm the sort of person who'd prefer the server to go down if I don't pay, rather than them charging me more money
23:57:03 <elliott> And, as I said, <elliott> (As in, you can pay them $200 and they won't charge you for 10 months.)
23:57:40 <ais523> elliott: but they'll charge me /after/ 10 months
23:57:51 <ais523> I think you're missing the point here
23:58:05 <elliott> ais523: Not if you pay them again within 10 months, or cancel your account.
23:58:15 <elliott> Are you planning to die in the next 10 months?
23:58:50 <ais523> but the point is, /it requires explicit action from me to stop them charging me again/
23:58:58 <shachaf> elliott: I think you're missing ais523's point here.
23:58:58 <ais523> thus, /they are charging me money and it's opt-out not opt-in/
23:59:12 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:59:12 <elliott> I understand ais523's point perfectly. It's stupid.
23:59:22 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: Can you back up my glowing recommendation of 365ezone?
23:59:24 <elliott> It's stupid even by ais523's standards.
00:03:37 <elliott> ais523: By the way, PayPal works without an account.
00:03:44 <elliott> But I bet they still won't promise to not keep your credit card on file.
00:09:07 <RocketJSquirrel> prgmr also offers prepaid cards at conventions, so you could just road-trip 'round from convention to convention buying cards from 'em :)
00:09:40 -!- NihilistDandy has joined.
00:10:18 <ais523> a silly plan that could work, would be to find a UK-based provider, then get a new debit card, and then FOIA away the old one from their files
00:10:25 <ais523> although that's a nomic-scam-level of legal silliness
00:11:12 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I'm sure ais523 has a moral objection to roads. Or conventions.
00:11:54 <ais523> elliott: well, I found a VPS that allows you to pay by cheque
00:12:01 <ais523> although it has to be made out from a French bank, in euros
00:12:39 <ais523> let's see if their other terms are legal
00:12:46 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: neither do I, because I don't have a chequebook
00:12:53 <ais523> however, I've requested them printed for me a couple of times at the bank
00:12:55 <elliott> ais523: Is this another one of those update lists I can't get off of?
00:13:07 <ais523> oh, like the tab=8 list?
00:13:18 <ais523> that's your fault for having an incorrect opinion
00:13:19 <elliott> Though I suppose that is another example, yes.
00:13:25 <elliott> But not the one I was thinking of.
00:13:31 <RocketJSquirrel> <ais523> however, I've requested them printed for me a couple of times at the bank // yes, this I've done too.
00:13:54 <elliott> Cheques are more common here than in the US, I believe.
00:14:13 <RocketJSquirrel> Which is funny since you don't even know how to spell the word *ba-dum lame*
00:15:56 <ais523> elliott: I thought they were more common in the US
00:16:10 <ais523> wow, this place also offers 3 and a half nines SLA, it's the highest I've seen
00:16:19 <ais523> from a budget VPS provider
00:16:23 <ais523> although that's all reasonably meaningless
00:17:02 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Actualy, 365ezone _don't_ autocharge.
00:17:07 <elliott> And allow you to pay by credit card.
00:17:13 <elliott> I just checked their "Terms & Condition" (singular).
00:17:18 <elliott> They don't promise not to store the card, though.
00:17:28 <elliott> However, I don't believe they qualify for the status of "VPS provider".
00:17:50 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: Hey! They are best having cheap VPS for good hosts!
00:20:55 <ais523> bleh, there are actually impossible restrictions in this ToS
00:21:00 <ais523> such as preventing the IP ending up on a spam blacklist
00:21:12 <ais523> which is reasonable, but in theory the spam blacklist people can do what they like
00:21:14 <ais523> and sometimes in practice too
00:22:00 <ais523> it took a bit of work to find it
00:23:44 <elliott> http://libm.so//?gtnjs=13334125907ba0f6ec9971d6d063c918e391bfc4c1
00:24:10 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: YEAH I DON'T OWN THAT ONE EITHER THANKS FOR REMINDING ME
00:24:52 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: But it's for sale!
00:26:37 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Can you write my PHP for me?
00:27:53 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Can you write my PHP for me better?
00:28:37 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: What's the best nickname for a bot that parrots Esolang recentchanges in here?
00:29:28 <itidus21> libk.so looks like this: http://libk.so
00:29:38 -!- elliott has changed nick to esolan.
00:29:39 -!- esolan has changed nick to esolang.
00:30:03 <ais523> you could consider "solidity", unless we have too much of that already
00:30:44 <ais523> "esolang" is simpler, at least
00:33:29 -!- esolang has changed nick to elliott.
00:33:46 <ais523> OK, gandi's ToS is really reasonable in most respects
00:33:56 <elliott> "If this message is spam, please contact support@freenode.net with a full copy." --freenode
00:34:06 <ais523> the spam blacklist thing is the only weird bit, and I guess it's OK to just make a best effort to comply with it
00:34:13 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:34:21 <ais523> elliott: and that's presumably for the purpose of anyone impersonating them having to add it too
00:34:43 <elliott> i suspect it's for people who spam registrations to an address
00:35:11 <elliott> did you know that MediaWiki's recent-changes streaming support is based on UDP?
00:35:31 <elliott> presumably because they can't just run a daemon, they have to do it in a PHP script which has to terminate quickly, so they just send a UDP packet
00:36:11 <ais523> UDP's designed for that sort of thing
00:36:17 <ais523> port number? port of a program?
00:37:03 <elliott> port number for the UDP server I'll run
00:37:13 <elliott> (I'm going to write a Perl program to receive the UDP requests and forward them to IRC)
00:37:18 <ais523> do you want it root-owned or high?
00:37:24 <elliott> really, it should be able to use a unix socket
00:37:44 <elliott> ais523: either is fine; latter is probably preferable, as I can just run the bot as my user
00:37:49 <elliott> and not have to deal with privilege-dropping code
00:37:57 <elliott> also, less likely to step on toes
00:38:19 <ais523> I'd just pick a random number, probably
00:38:54 <ais523> (actually random, I just ran a randomizer)
00:39:41 <elliott> that's not a power of two _or_ a prime!
00:42:03 <elliott> shachaf: what's the best prime?
00:46:11 <elliott> shachaf: what's the best prime?
00:46:16 <elliott> ais523: what's the best prime UK ISP?
00:46:33 <ais523> elliott: I'm not sure if I can think of any numeric ISPs
00:47:05 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Tue Apr 3 01:47:01
00:47:18 <lambdabot> Local time for ion is Tue Apr 3 03:46:46 2012
00:47:23 * pikhq shall have to create a new ISP: 2^2-1
00:47:32 <elliott> pikhq: What's the best prime?
00:47:38 <shachaf> elliott: It's the only even prime.
00:47:38 <ion> How does lambdabot know that? By GeoIP?
00:48:01 <ion> Oh, i should have looked at the status window. :-D
00:48:15 <pikhq> elliott: Objectively? http://primes.utm.edu/curios/page.php?number_id=953
00:48:27 <ais523> OK, I think gandi meet all my criteria for selecting a VPS provider, which is great
00:48:31 <ais523> now I'll go look for an even better one
00:48:38 <ais523> what did RocketJSquirrel suggest again?
00:48:44 <ion> pikhq: FTFY: 2²−1
00:48:56 <shachaf> elliott: Tell ion to take me off /ignore.
00:49:12 <elliott> wait, "CAPTCHA" is derived from "capture"?
00:49:24 <ais523> elliott: no, it's an acronym
00:49:26 <RocketJSquirrel> ais523: 365ezone is best deal for quality VPS serving time
00:49:28 <elliott> ais523: He wasn't suggesting it.
00:49:36 <elliott> ais523: The term "CAPTCHA" was coined in 2000 by Luis von Ahn, Manuel Blum, Nicholas J. Hopper, and John Langford (all of Carnegie Mellon University). It is an acronym based on the word "capture" and standing for "Completely Automated Public Turing test to tell Computers and Humans Apart"
00:49:42 <elliott> "Acronyms are sometimes contrived, that is, deliberately designed to be especially apt for the thing being named (by having a dual meaning or by borrowing the positive connotations of an existing word). Some examples of contrived acronyms are USA PATRIOT, CAN SPAM, CAPTCHA and ACT UP."
00:50:39 <ais523> they, umm, have a specific Minecraft server option, how ridiculous
00:50:43 <shachaf> ais523: I heard NetHack 4.2.0 was released.
00:50:56 <elliott> ais523: How is that ridiculous?
00:50:57 <ion> All the potheads rejoiced?
00:50:59 <elliott> Setting Bukkit up is annoying.
00:51:05 <elliott> Especially if you've never used Linux.
00:51:13 <ais523> elliott: I'm amazed that it's a large enough market for it to be worth money to be in
00:51:47 <elliott> ais523: Seriously? Over 5 million people have bought Minecraft.
00:51:48 <ion> @time do_you_take_a_parameter
00:51:54 <elliott> It's made Notch a multi-millionaire.
00:52:02 <elliott> It's had its own bloody conference in Vegas. It's huge.
00:53:18 <pikhq> Minecraft is one of the top 10 best-selling PC games by now, isn't it?
00:53:22 <elliott> What about a Minecraft condom? I HAD TO GO THERE OK.
00:53:32 <ion> @time preflex
00:53:33 <lambdabot> Local time for preflex is 2012-04-03 00:53WHERE IS SARAH CONNOR?
00:54:17 <EgoBot> \ /tmp/runghcXXXX18901.hs:1:1: \ Parse error: naked expression at top level
00:54:18 <EgoBot> \ /tmp/runghcXXXX18945.hs:1:1: \ Parse error: naked expression at top level
00:54:20 <RocketJSquirrel> It's a Minecraft conscription. If you live in Vegas, there's a decent chance you'll get conscripted into the Minecraft army.
00:54:31 <elliott> !haskell main = print $ randomRIO (1,2)
00:54:33 <elliott> !haskell main = print $ randomRIO (1,2)
00:54:34 <elliott> !haskell main = print $ randomRIO (1,2)
00:54:34 <elliott> !haskell main = print $ randomRIO (1,2)
00:54:36 <EgoBot> \ /tmp/runghcXXXX19041.hs:1:16: Not in scope: `randomRIO'
00:54:38 <EgoBot> \ /tmp/runghcXXXX19132.hs:1:16: Not in scope: `randomRIO'
00:54:39 <EgoBot> \ /tmp/runghcXXXX19145.hs:1:16: Not in scope: `randomRIO'
00:54:40 <EgoBot> \ /tmp/runghcXXXX19146.hs:1:16: Not in scope: `randomRIO'
00:54:51 <elliott> !haskell import System.Random; main = print $ randomRIO (1,2)
00:54:53 <elliott> !haskell import System.Random; main = print $ randomRIO (1,2)
00:54:56 <EgoBot> \ /tmp/runghcXXXX19259.hs:1:8: \ Could not find module `System.Random' \ Use -v to see a list of the files searched for.
00:54:58 <EgoBot> \ /tmp/runghcXXXX19265.hs:1:8: \ Could not find module `System.Random' \ Use -v to see a list of the files searched for.
00:55:03 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: You're fucking kidding me.
00:55:21 <ais523> 365ezone do not inspire me with confidence about their competence
00:55:39 <RocketJSquirrel> ais523: 365ezone having best deals for VPS in your good hosting service!
00:55:43 <ais523> and the prices are very low by comparison to some other places
00:56:02 <ais523> and they have a really weird list of things that they ban (roleplaying games on shared servers, for instance)
00:56:40 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know Adam Chlipala is banned from #haskell????
00:56:43 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: is it on a shared server? or a master server?
00:56:55 <ais523> backups are also against the TOS on shared servers, for reasons I can't figure out
00:57:06 <ion> @time ubuntulog
00:57:07 <lambdabot> Local time for ubuntulog is Tue Apr 3 00:56:36 2012
00:57:37 <ion> So anyone can make lambdabot flood anyone with CTCP TIME queries? Someone should try that with one of Freenode’s ircops.
00:57:38 <shachaf> elliott: Did you know I've met Adam Chlipala IN REAL LIFE!!!!?
00:57:42 <elliott> shachaf: See, I knew Smerdyakov is banned from #haskell. But I had no idea who that was.
00:57:47 <elliott> But I knew who Adam Chlipala was!
00:57:55 <elliott> And then someone said they were him and I was like whooooaaaa but he seems so cool.
00:58:13 <elliott> (^^^ AWESOME SUPER-GREAT REFERENCE)
00:58:50 <RocketJSquirrel> ais523: Please tell me you realize I am not suggesting you actually use 365ezone X_X
00:58:50 <shachaf> 17:51 <shachaf> What's the time where you are?
00:59:01 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: ah, OK
00:59:07 <ais523> what's your opinion of them, anyway?
00:59:26 <ion> shachaf: That was proprietary information you just leaked.
01:00:11 <elliott> Prelude Math.NumberTheory.Primes.Testing System.Random> let pick = randomRIO (1024,65536) >>= \p -> if isPrime p then return p else pick
01:01:46 <elliott> IANA's port assignments are apparently in XML form.
01:02:07 <ion> Makes sense, you can conveniently process them with XSLT.
01:02:20 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
01:02:39 <elliott> @downforeveryoneorjustme http://www.iana.org/assignments/service-names-port-numbers/service-names-port-numbers.xml
01:02:46 * lambdabot orders her trained monkeys to punch
01:03:16 <ion> @slap self
01:03:26 * lambdabot slaps lambdabot with a slab of concrete
01:03:30 * lambdabot places her fist firmly on lambdabot's jaw
01:03:38 <lambdabot> *SMACK*, *SLAM*, take that lambdabot!
01:03:41 <lambdabot> I don't perform such side effects on command!
01:03:43 <lambdabot> I'd rather not; lambdabot looks rather dangerous.
01:04:33 <elliott> elliott@solidity:~$ nc -u -l -p 8147
01:04:33 <elliott> 14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=31735&oldid=31734 5* 03Ehird 5* (+13) 10test
01:05:57 <elliott> how do you sockets in perl help thanks
01:06:01 <elliott> poe = http://poe.perl.org/
01:06:09 <ais523> hmm, not sure I've ever tried
01:07:24 <elliott> how do you sneckets in perl thenks
01:11:05 -!- esolang has joined.
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01:12:54 -!- esolang has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:13:46 -!- esolang has joined.
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01:14:22 <elliott> ais523: why does my bot not work :(
01:16:23 <shachaf> elliott: The answer is: Because it's lambdabot.
01:23:20 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
01:24:04 <elliott> USER esolang 8 * :Esolang recent changes bot, see http://esolangs.org/
01:24:04 <elliott> PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=31744&oldid=31743 5* 03Ehird 5* (+7) 10
01:24:10 <elliott> Seriously, I honestly can't tell.
01:24:16 <elliott> Answers from someome other than shachaf please.
01:25:20 <shachaf> elliott: I don't think you can have spaces in the realname?
01:25:28 <shachaf> I might be wrong. It joined the channel, so I'm probably wrong.
01:25:38 <ais523> you can have spaces in teh realname
01:25:44 <ais523> did you get an error message back?
01:25:47 <elliott> shachaf: it wouldn't be much of a realname without
01:25:52 <elliott> ais523: no, that privmsg just gets dropped
01:25:56 <elliott> and it keeps receiving messages
01:26:07 <elliott> note that the privmsg has ansi codes in but i've piped it to cat -v and it still doesn't work
01:26:43 <shachaf> elliott: Did you try getting rid of the ANSI codes?
01:27:08 <elliott> <elliott> note that the privmsg has ansi codes in but i've piped it to cat -v and it still doesn't work
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01:28:28 <shachaf> PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=31744&oldid=31743 5* 03Ehird 5* (+7) 10
01:28:30 <esolang> 14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=31744&oldid=31743 5* 03Ehird 5* (+7) 10
01:28:42 -!- esolang has quit (Client Quit).
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01:28:55 <shachaf> elliott: Nope, your IRC isn't broken.
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01:29:37 <elliott> OK, now it's acting like it's missing the trailing newline.
01:29:41 <elliott> Except adding "; echo" doesn't help either.
01:29:54 <shachaf> elliott: Add a new line with QUIT at the end?
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01:31:08 <elliott> USER esolang 8 * :Esolang recent changes bot, see http://esolangs.org/
01:31:08 <elliott> PRIVMSG #esoteric :a privmsg
01:31:17 <elliott> PRIVMSG #esoteric :a privmsg
01:31:18 <elliott> PRIVMSG #esoteric :^C14[[^C07Esolang:Sandbox^C14]]^C4 ^C10 ^C02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=31749&oldid=31748^C ^C5*^C ^C03Ehird^C ^C5*^C (+1) ^C10^C
01:31:24 <elliott> With two blank lines before the QUIT.
01:31:35 <elliott> I don't know why it doesn't say anything before I hit enter.
01:31:50 <shachaf> elliott: Did you try \r\n?!
01:32:19 <elliott> I know for a fact that freenode doesn't require \r.
01:36:06 <shachaf> elliott: Did you try \n\n?!
01:37:31 <shachaf> elliott: How are you sending these commands, exactly?
01:37:38 <shachaf> Are you typing them in nc in the terminal?
01:38:54 <elliott> (echo "PASS $(cat esolang-bot-password)"; echo 'NICK esolang'; echo 'USER esolang 8 * :Esolang recent changes bot, see http://esolangs.org/'; echo 'JOIN #esoteric'; echo 'PRIVMSG #esoteric :a privmsg'; while true; do nc -u -l -p 8147 | sed 's/^/PRIVMSG #esoteric :/'; echo; echo; echo 'QUIT :outta here'; done) | cat -v | nc irc.freenode.net 6667
01:41:51 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Tue Apr 3 02:41:47
01:44:35 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Mon Apr 2 18:44:04 2012
01:47:15 <shachaf> What's that while true for?
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01:48:45 <HackEgo> esolang: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
01:48:49 <HackEgo> ESOLANG: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
01:49:55 <elliott> <shachaf> What's that while true for?
01:49:59 <elliott> It disconnects after receiving a UDP message.
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01:50:26 <shachaf> Never mind, I don't feel like debugging IRC bts.
01:55:09 <Sgeo> I want to facepalm at Conservapedia
01:55:18 <Sgeo> "The theory of an old universe is contradicted again, this time by discovery of planets that formed "at dawn of universe." [1] How many counterexamples to an Old Earth does an atheist need in order to start opening his mind?"
01:55:28 <Sgeo> The [1] links to http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2012/0330/Planets-found-at-dawn-of-universe-but-their-existence-is-a-mystery
01:55:38 <Sgeo> Do they even READ the articles, or just use the headlines?
01:55:46 <Sgeo> Because that is, admittedly, perhaps a misleading headline
01:57:50 <Sgeo> iirc CS Monitor is actually decent despite the name
01:59:31 <Sgeo> Stephen Fry would like to have a word
02:01:06 <coppro> law of wikis: every subject has exactly one wikia, one non-wikia wiki, and a wikipedia article
02:02:03 <RocketJSquirrel> FOR INSTANCE mlp.wikia.com, mylittlewiki.com, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Little_Pony_Friendship_is_Magic
02:03:17 <RocketJSquirrel> It's mylittlewiki.org , and that appears less focused on FiM (i.e. focused on terrible garbage that we should all forget ever existed)
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02:35:49 <Sgeo> Hmm, I think Creatures follows that pattern
02:35:57 <Sgeo> There was a very old wiki before the wikia
02:37:16 <Sgeo> I think it's dead now
02:39:20 <pikhq> RocketJSquirrel: The Christian Science Monitor, contrary to its name, is a relatively well-respected journalistic entity.
02:40:42 <pikhq> It's only incidentally related to the Church of Christ, Scientist, and that only because the founder of both believed strongly in good journalism.
02:41:51 <kmc> yeah csm is legit
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02:43:59 <elliott> aren't the christian scientists the faith healing peeps
02:44:24 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c6/Ccseal.PNG best logo imo
02:44:27 <pikhq> Yes, they are complete wakos.
02:44:43 <pikhq> It just happens that this has no impact on their newspaper.
02:45:10 <elliott> unless the subject being reported about is them, I'd wager
02:48:57 <pikhq> The church doesn't really have much influence on their writing, and their editors generally aren't Christian Scientists.
02:49:02 <RocketJSquirrel> Welp, just found the worst-spelled word in my spelling dictionary.
02:49:42 <elliott> What's the correct spelling?
02:49:46 <pikhq> It's really a damned odd thing.
02:49:55 <elliott> I've been considering switching to en-GB-x-oed.
02:50:04 <elliott> (y'all is perfectly valid en-GB-x-oed tyvm)
02:50:07 <pikhq> Purely secular reporting by a church.
02:50:14 <pikhq> elliott: "x-oed" = ?
02:51:03 <pikhq> So, the Oxford spellings.
02:51:33 <RocketJSquirrel> Presumably oed is just "every word anyone has ever written in an otherwise-English context"
02:51:56 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: en-GB-oed is en-GB using -ize suffices.
02:52:00 <pikhq> RocketJSquirrel: And with the OED-prefered spelling, where there are multiple choices.
02:52:07 <pikhq> e.g. -ize suffixes.
02:52:11 <elliott> For etymological and phonetic reasons.
02:52:21 <elliott> (Note that this only applies to -ize; it's still "analyse")
02:52:52 <pikhq> And it's still "programme".
02:53:10 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, but I say program anyway >_>
02:53:18 <elliott> I consider programme to refer to only the non-computer meanings.
02:53:36 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9985988/haskell-pattern-matching-disappointed
02:53:42 <pikhq> Apparently that's actually proper UK English. "program" refers to a computer program exclusively.
02:53:49 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: "[I]n mod.F. the suffix has become -iser, alike in words from Greek, as baptiser, évangéliser, organiser, and those formed after them from L., as civiliser, cicatriser, humaniser. Hence, some have used the spelling -ise in Eng., as in French, for all these words, and some prefer -ise in words formed in French or Eng. from L. elements, retaining -ize for those of Gr. composition. But the suffix itself, whatever the element to wh
02:53:49 <elliott> ich it is added, is in its origin the Gr. -ιζειν, L. -izāre; and, as the pronunciation is also with z, there is no reason why in English the special French spelling should be followed, in opposition to that which is at once etymological and phonetic. In this Dictionary the termination is uniformly written -ize. (In the Gr. -ιζ-, the i was short, so originally in L., but the double consonant z (= dz, ts) made the syllable long; when the z
02:53:50 <elliott> became a simple consonant, (-idz) became īz, whence Eng. (-aɪz).)"
02:54:00 <pikhq> Because spelling needs to be less consistent. :)
02:56:14 <elliott> <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9985988/haskell-pattern-matching-disappointed
02:56:17 <elliott> I feel the need to reiterate:
02:56:36 <pikhq> "I typed in wrong code and the compiler errored. HASKELL SUCKS"
02:59:51 <Sgeo> Well, the code makes sense in other languages, is I think the point
03:00:34 <elliott> kmc: Tell me not to link that question in #haskell.
03:00:41 <elliott> I'm so tempted. But then #haskell might get even worse.
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03:04:52 <shachaf> elliott: I think that is just a troll post.
03:05:41 <elliott> shachaf: I know it is. I'm not actually annoyed.
03:06:05 <elliott> It's therapeutic to call people fucking morons. You should try it sometime.
03:06:19 <shachaf> O. I thought that you were actually annoyed.
03:06:27 <shachaf> elliott: I've never done it in my life.
03:06:53 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9985987/t-or-f-tcp-socket-method-is-unsuitable-for-mobile-devices
03:07:32 <shachaf> There should be a game where a bunch of people pretend to be zzo38 and they get points based on how realistic they are.
03:07:33 <elliott> shachaf: O, is that so. OK.
03:07:37 <shachaf> You could call it a ZZORPG.
03:07:49 <pikhq_> I'm afraid zzoing is best left to zzo38. At least, I think so.
03:08:18 <elliott> In Astrolog, I see the ecliptic declension is measured in radians. In my opinion, they should have it be any system of measurement, such as SI, metric, or even something you made up yourself, not just radians.
03:08:48 * elliott likes to think he's quite good at this.
03:09:18 <elliott> `pastlog <zzo38.*Astrolog is
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03:10:42 <shachaf> elliott: Being on-topic is part of the point.
03:10:49 <elliott> Cnay ou try to make a language like Haskell but with many thing different, such as, more notation, macros (like Template Haskell but different), no layout, and extensible data?
03:10:54 <shachaf> (Admittedly you don't *always* want to be on-topic.)
03:10:56 <elliott> Can you try to make a language like Haskell but with many thing different, such as, more notation, macros (like Template Haskell but different), no layout, and extensible data?
03:12:05 <HackEgo> 139) <zzo38> Some people are reasonable, some people who are not reasonable insist on changing things so therefore progress depends on not reasonablepeple
03:12:22 <elliott> That's my favourite version of that quote.
03:15:30 <shachaf> I think I just realized the answer to my own question.
03:15:35 <shachaf> The only log zzo38 reads is...
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03:17:57 <HackEgo> emcc: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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03:21:49 <kmc> fuck, i updated chromium using its internal thingy, and now it's being laggy and dumb
03:22:06 <kmc> browsers have so much code churn that every update fixes some bugs and introduces new ones
03:22:13 <kmc> so if you are happy with your current situation, don't upgrade ;P
03:25:31 <elliott> kmc: "Updated Chromium"? It does that automatically. Oh, Chromium, not Chrome.
03:25:38 <elliott> Does Chromium have an internal update thing? I don't think so.
03:28:02 <kmc> in the menu
03:28:03 <kmc> there's only one
03:28:16 <elliott> Also, you could always just tell your distro to reinstall the package :P
03:28:17 <kmc> "update chromium" or some shit
03:28:19 <kmc> it showed up
03:28:22 <kmc> yeah maybe i'll do that
03:28:33 <kmc> it showed up
03:28:37 <kmc> when i had an update ;P
03:28:41 * elliott is on 18.0.1025.142, fwiw.
03:28:49 <kmc> as a user i feel like I'm getting screwed by some dick-measuring contest between google and mozilla
03:28:49 <elliott> Maybe Arch disable the menu item or something.
03:28:59 <kmc> i wish they would stop adding shiny for a while, maybe fix some bugs
03:29:03 <elliott> Chrome's versioning scheme is reasonable.
03:29:08 <kmc> maybe even (gasp!) maintain a stable tree that gets bugfixes
03:29:17 <elliott> kmc: Erm, Chrome does that.
03:29:20 <elliott> That's what all the channels are about.
03:29:30 <elliott> kmc: Your distro might be providing you the dev channel.
03:29:35 <elliott> Mine does that, because ARCH BLEEDING EDGE FOREVER.
03:29:55 <coppro> I just had either the best or worst idea ever
03:29:55 <elliott> There's actually stable, beta, dev, canary channels or something like that, and stable is the Chrome everyone on Windows/OS X gets unless they do something special.
03:30:12 * pikhq_ mutters at presentationing
03:30:17 <elliott> Chrome's versioning scheme works because it doesn't really have "releases", on Windows and OS X it literally just updates silently, you never even see the version unless you look for it... with Firefox they still make a big deal out of every release
03:30:23 <elliott> which is just ridiculous with the kind of schedule they go at now
03:30:46 <kmc> so the stable channel actually gets new bugfixes without pulling every new feature?
03:30:56 <kmc> or is it just an older version on the same linear sequence
03:31:26 <elliott> kmc: Well, it gets bugfixes. Then it gets the new features periodically.
03:31:31 <coppro> so one of the problems with voice recognition is that it is really difficult to decontextualize symbols
03:31:35 <elliott> It's not just "50 revisions ago", no.
03:31:50 <elliott> It's basically Debian testing vs. Debian unstable vs. Debian experimental.
03:31:54 <coppro> the solution is to have verbal escapes
03:32:05 <coppro> "join <click>pound esoteric"
03:32:16 <elliott> hey, what's a good Unicode character to use to separate lines in a terminal in a linear setting?
03:32:43 <kmc> there's a symbol for "carriage return" no?
03:33:36 <elliott> PFSC updated several times and nobody told me :(
03:33:43 <elliott> but wouldn't LF be more appropriate?
03:34:04 <coppro> you all know it to be true
03:34:29 <elliott> Would a pilcrow be inappropriate? That thing is a little small.
03:34:48 <coppro> pilcrow would be inappropriate
03:35:28 <coppro> I would go with U+244A: ⑊
03:35:42 <elliott> coppro: oh, that's a good one
03:35:47 <elliott> I went with RIGHT ARROW in the end
03:35:53 <elliott> since it was describing a result
03:36:06 <elliott> oh, that's OCR DOUBLE BACKSLASH
03:36:46 <coppro> elliott: do you know of Fake Unicode Consortium?
03:38:26 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Tue Apr 3 04:38:23
03:38:33 <elliott> Wait, why didn't that work?
03:38:37 <elliott> What does lambdabot *do* to typo-correct?
03:39:13 <lambdabot> Local time for ion is Tue Apr 3 06:38:40 2012
03:39:15 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Ohh, right.
03:39:28 <lambdabot> Local time for pikhq_ is Mon Apr 2 21:38:55 2012
03:39:31 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . ? @ bf do ft id pl rc thx time v wn
03:39:46 <ion> elliott: A crapload of homework to finish. It looks like i won’t make the deadline, though.
03:40:10 <ion> So might as well go to sleep. :-P Except that i’ve taken some caffeine.
03:42:30 <elliott> I hope time is going backwards now.
03:42:33 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Tue Apr 3 04:12:03
03:43:13 <elliott> I just spun the clock backwards.
03:44:31 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Mon Apr 2 20:43:58 2012
03:44:51 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Mon Apr 3 04:24:09 2012
03:44:58 <elliott> Gosh. Time goes fast in America.
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03:46:43 <lambdabot> Global time for monqy is Sat Apr 47 11:11:666 2012
03:47:16 <pikhq_> Shame it won't hand you Discordian dates.
03:47:35 <pikhq_> Today is Boomtime, the 19th day of Discord in the YOLD 3178
03:52:29 <elliott> pikhq_: It will if your client does.
03:53:17 <pikhq_> Hmm. Perhaps I should run irssi under sdate, then.
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03:55:21 <pikhq_> Of course, arguably Eternal September dates should be fixed...
03:55:28 <pikhq_> AOL stopped providing Usenet.
03:55:30 <ion> elliott: ddate
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03:56:44 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Tue Apr 3 04:56:40
03:56:53 <elliott> I'm running it under sdate.
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03:57:18 <ion> elliott: You should ask for your money back.
03:57:47 <ion> elly: You should be named ellyott.
03:58:09 <quintopia> freenode took down their apr fools privacy policy page and i never got a chance to read it. can anyone summarize?
03:58:39 <elliott> It was freenode, and it was an April Fools joke, so the chances of it being funny or worth your time are 0.
03:59:52 <pikhq_> I was too busy procrastinating.
04:00:05 <pikhq_> Also cmakoing, but mostly procrastinating.
04:00:49 <calamari> I was too busy derpying flockdraw
04:01:44 <elliott> I... spent a considerable portion of April 1st trying to work around IE8 being a terrible piece of shit.
04:02:38 <calamari> my grandma was still using ie8.. got her moved over to firefox today
04:02:49 <kmc> ddate is for lovers
04:03:21 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Guess I'll have to block oerjan.
04:04:20 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I could block oerjan for 1 second, you know.
04:07:12 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Oran This is the bestest article ever
04:09:17 <RocketJSquirrel> I like how you feel the need to correct your punctuation in a sentence in which you used the word "bestest".
04:09:47 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: en-GB-oed-x-elliott
04:09:57 <elliott> Anyway, the missing dot changes the tone.
04:13:59 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy shachaf UPDATE. ALSO ALBUM
04:14:13 <Sgeo> (shachef automatically removed from update list)
04:17:25 <elliott> Nobody gets removed from the update list.
04:18:34 <Sgeo> shachaf didn't really want to be on i
04:19:45 <elliott> No. Everybody wants to be on the update list.
04:19:48 <elliott> Cease and desist immediately.
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04:25:10 <elliott> shachaf is happy to be on the list.
04:25:44 <shachaf> I'm happy to be off the update list.
04:26:10 <shachaf> I'm also happy for the release of the new albumen.
04:29:38 <elliott> You're happy to be on the update list.
04:29:41 <elliott> monqy: Correct shachaf and Sgeo.
04:30:23 <shachaf> monqy: Do you want to be on the update list?
04:33:28 <elliott> TELL ME TO GO TO SLEEP THAnks
04:36:45 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Tue Apr 3 05:36:41
04:37:17 <shachaf> elliott: GO TO SLEEP TAnks
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04:50:19 <monqy> shachaf: you want to be on the update list
04:50:24 <monqy> Sgeo: shachaf wants to be on the update list
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05:30:42 <ais523> itidus21: you might want to try again, HackEgo sometimes screws up the first itme
05:31:03 <itidus21> ok but i don't know what i am looking for
05:31:37 <HackEgo> 2011-10-31.txt:01:52:13: <zzo38> I figured out how to use Astrolog to compute the date of Chinese New Year.
05:39:15 <shachaf> monqy: what if i wan't to be be on the update list
05:39:22 <shachaf> "wan't" stands for "want not", by the way.
05:41:09 <monqy> but you don't wan't
05:41:22 <shachaf> monqy: what if i dont wan't
05:41:44 <monqy> you don't dont wan't
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06:17:39 <quintopia> 13:30 * elliott wants to see the programs that generated http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ais523_anticipation.bfjoust and http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/quintopia_space_elevator.bfjoust
06:18:47 <quintopia> elliott: the standard "defend" code is generated by a very very short matlab program. all the structure and attacky stuff was handcoded.
06:27:53 <olsner> ... generated by matlab
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08:49:06 <Taneb> This David.werecatt seems...
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08:53:45 <Taneb> Also, if we're going to change the featured language every 2 weeks, we're a day late
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09:44:25 <shachaf> http://i.imgur.com/ZUTx3.png
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10:44:09 <hagb4rd> hi! in know it's kind of out of topic, but maybe you guys can help.. i'm looking for some complete(?) ready-to-go wrapping code to use for interop-operations with c# on the windows API. (because i'm tired of looking up the code for every single function and/or struct as listed on pinvoke.net for example). would you recommend/suggest a source where i could find such code?
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11:12:25 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 19 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
11:15:48 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, why are you in America?
11:16:53 <Taneb> Because I am trapped in elliott's basement
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11:18:50 <Phantom_Hoover> And then broke into the basement only to discover it's locked?
11:21:14 <Phantom_Hoover> (That's the dun-dun-dun from The Eve of the War from Jeff Wayne's Musical Version of The War of the Worlds, not the normal dun-dun-dun.)
11:21:54 <Taneb> I think I have that on LP
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11:46:37 <NSQX> If anyone unblocks me I will work on UniCode, but unfortunately, nobody will.
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12:42:14 <lambdabot> Local time for elly is Tue Apr 3 08:41:32 2012
12:42:25 <lambdabot> Local time for NSQX is Tue Apr 03 20:41:53 2012
12:43:36 <NSQX> Where are the administrators anyway?
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12:56:35 <Sgeo> NSQX, you ... do know why you're blocked, right?
12:56:47 <Sgeo> And at any rate, your block is of finite duration.
12:56:59 <Sgeo> Hi Taneb. Did you see the update and the album?
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12:57:58 <NSQX> I'm only waiting for the time when I can ask an administrator to unblock me.
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15:10:37 <elliott> This document explicitly and emphatically, yet very humbly, requests
15:10:37 <elliott> IANA to not create an empty registry for the Null Packet.
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15:27:20 <ion> Meanwhile in April in Finland http://dl.dropbox.com/u/119475/IMG_20120403_074804.jpg
15:41:36 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9995470/jquery-vs-javascript
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16:14:09 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: You'd be shocked how commonly that question comes up X_X
16:14:33 <RocketJSquirrel> Note how #jquery has hundreds more members than ##javascript
16:16:05 * elliott remembers telling RocketJSquirrel about jQuery once.
16:19:57 <oerjan> eek something like 39.4 degrees celsius fever
16:20:09 <oerjan> IT WAS NICE TO KNOW YOU ALL. WELL, MOST OF YOU.
16:21:08 <fizzie> 39.4 degrees F would be an even more alarming temperature, possibly.
16:23:34 <ion> YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAH
16:23:47 <RocketJSquirrel> Of course, it takes elliott days to raise the shades to his eyes with that little kinetic energy.
16:24:02 <pikhq_> RocketJSquirrel: 39.4K is at least low enough that you might be cryonically preserved.
16:24:22 <pikhq_> So, with future tech you may yet live.
16:25:15 <elliott> <RocketJSquirrel> Of course, it takes elliott days to raise the shades to his eyes with that little kinetic energy.
16:25:16 <pikhq_> Either you've got knowledge I don't, or you meant to say "I might be immortal"
16:25:23 <elliott> OK but I'm also hot. Cool and hot.
16:25:35 <pikhq_> Oh, wait. 39.4K and moving?
16:25:48 <ion> elliott is like some shit?
16:25:55 <elliott> I strongly resemble some shit.
16:26:01 <pikhq_> Or incredible. Typing whilst very dead.
16:26:38 <elliott> BTW, I lied, I'm not actually at 39.4K, I'm at absolute zero. My entire body works through incredibly improbable quantum effects.
16:27:26 <elliott> UNFORTUNATELY my body also decays through those same effects.
16:29:03 * oerjan recalls david niven's liquid helium creatures
16:30:02 * oerjan blames it on his fried brain
16:30:20 <elliott> Larry, David, what's the difference.
16:31:12 <pikhq_> Larry Niven is well-known (... among scifi fans). David Niven is not.
16:31:30 <elliott> James David Graham Niven (1 March 1910 – 29 July 1983),[1][2] was a British actor and novelist, best known for his roles as Phileas Fogg in Around the World in 80 Days and Sir Charles Lytton, a.k.a. "the Phantom", in The Pink Panther. He was awarded the 1958 Academy Award for Best Actor in Separate Tables.
16:31:41 <elliott> Sounds more well-known than Larry Niven to me!
16:31:41 <pikhq_> oerjan: Outsiders, I assume?
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16:34:35 <elliott> (Article at [[David Niven]] so presumably that's his common name)
16:36:52 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Our changesbot inexplicably doesn't work, despite producing the correct output when not piped into netcat.
16:37:09 <elliott> And because I was putting a lot of es on the page so I did it on purpose ergo fuck you.
16:37:50 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I'll probably try and get it working today.
16:37:54 <elliott> But it's a reaaaally weird bug.
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17:11:33 <ion> https://twitter.com/#!/DonaldGlover/statuses/29592754602381313
18:09:35 <elliott> @tell ais523 I like how everyone completely ignored your coming-clean post on rgrn.
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18:46:31 <nortti> perfect! My HD broke today
18:47:39 <elliott> What a coincidence! Mine didn't!
18:51:31 <ion> That’s their other main function.
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18:52:47 <nortti> so tomorrow I am going to set up my Thinkpad t20 with 700MHz Pentium III, 64MB of RAM and 30GB HD that is missing the screen as my main computer
18:53:27 <elliott> But what type is the RAM?!
18:56:57 <olsner> I wonder what elliott will do with this information
18:59:39 <elliott> hello, I have next problem I want to use polymorphic data-type that should have two operations (+) and *const
18:59:41 <elliott> so in that type I want to use Num, Vector Num, and maybe types or so
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19:00:14 <HackEgo> 804) <olsner> the allocation is done by the "Dynamic" in DRAM <olsner> before that we used SRAM where everything was preallocated in the factory <fizzie> olsner: So what's this SDRAM then? <olsner> fizzie: synchronized, it's for multithreading
19:02:12 <nortti> elliott: why do you want to build a clone? it also has two windows licenes taped to it (98, XP Pro) and nothing to keep HD inside
19:02:43 <olsner> PC100 SDRAM allows up to 100 PCs (processing contexts, usually called threads nowadays) per memory module
19:03:49 <nortti> olsner: what about DDR RAM?
19:04:29 <elliott> nortti: Can you tell me the screen resolution? Thx
19:05:45 <nortti> elliott: using a external monitor on 1024x768
19:08:20 <nortti> but why do you really want this information?
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19:09:23 <elliott> That's classified. Well, it's not, but I'd probably get arrested if I told you.
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19:10:44 <elliott> shachaf: http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/rrijm/could_somebody_explain_the_concept_behind_storing/
19:13:40 <shachaf> elliott: blubbar raises some good, thought-provoking questions.
19:14:10 <shachaf> Many a sage has wondered "Why is there in expression and nothing done with it? The $ should curry i guess, but why is this not given a name? (And why isn't it lost?)"
19:14:30 <shachaf> "How the hell is this pure?" is one of the great unsolved problems of our time.
19:14:57 <olsner> nortti: double data rate, it allows two threads to use memory at the same time
19:15:09 <olsner> theoretically doubling bandwidth, but latency increases a bit when switching contexts
19:15:11 <shachaf> And of course "Is there \"State in Haskell for retards?\"" is a question that any child could understand, but few could answer.
19:15:14 <nortti> first time my HD broke I lost almost all of the data, second time I lost few important files and this time I only lost two hour worth of irc logs.
19:22:08 <nortti> "There's really only so many basic stories that can exist. The main character is trying to get somewhere (the Odyssey), get something (the legend of the Golden Fleece), win someone's heart (the Iliad), get revenge (Cain and Abel) or save the world ( Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure)."
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19:27:32 <shachaf> elliott: Just solving all those problems quickly, eh?
19:27:39 <shachaf> Movin' along at a vector's pace.
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19:39:03 <pikhq> RocketJSquirrel: Ah, yes, early Spock/Kirk slash.
19:40:40 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, can't say I've read any. Just random snarking.
19:40:55 <elliott> Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure.
19:41:41 <pikhq> Besides, not exactly the target audience for most slash fic. They kinda target women who like hot man-sex. :P
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19:43:55 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:44:16 <ais523> elliott: I don't like it so much
19:44:19 <ais523> perhaps they'll respond to it later
19:44:26 <ais523> or perhaps they're trying to think up an appropriate response
19:44:37 <ais523> note that it wasn't /completely/ ignored, I've had at least one private response
19:44:40 <ais523> but it was private for a reason, so…
19:45:00 <elliott> ais523: Was it a DevTeam member yelling at you?
19:45:05 <elliott> If you whisper, the secret is safe.
19:45:10 <elliott> ais523: Was it a DevTeam member not yelling at you?
19:45:18 <ais523> no, it wasn't a devteam member at all
19:45:38 <elliott> Was it a non-DevTeam member yelling at you?
19:45:59 <elliott> olsner: The NetHack "developer" team.
19:46:00 <ais523> olsner: the group of people who are theoretically supposed to be developing NetHack
19:46:35 <elliott> I will take ais523's silence... as affirmation!
19:49:10 <RocketJSquirrel> <pikhq> Besides, not exactly the target audience for most slash fic. They kinda target women who like hot man-sex.
19:49:37 <pikhq> RocketJSquirrel: Not really.
19:51:18 <elliott> augur, Hot Man Sex Consultant
19:51:33 <elliott> (More like Hot Man Sex-Consultant amiright??? lololololol xkcd)
19:51:37 <pikhq> Also, augur isn't here ATM.
19:51:38 <olsner> or slash fix target audience consultant
19:53:10 <olsner> there's a clop (or clop-something? don't remember the name) reddit, it was intriguing
19:54:00 <RocketJSquirrel> OH BIG MACINTOSH THEY SURE CALL YOU "BIG MACINTOSH" FOR A REASON HA HA HA
19:58:42 <pikhq> I was raised on the Internet; it is hard to shock me anymore.
19:58:46 <pikhq> I have seen... Things.
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20:30:11 <elliott> "The hypothetical person lacking a sense of humour would likely find the behaviour induced by humour to be inexplicable, strange, or even irrational." -- Wikipedia, [[humour]]
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20:31:09 <olsner> it's probably strange, inexplicable and irrational enough even if you know what's going on
20:33:05 <ais523> there's a short story by Asimov where someone asks Multivac for the reason humour exists
20:34:20 <pikhq> That was a good story.
20:47:25 -!- RocketJSquirrel has set topic: For Sale: Infinite Tape, Never Used | Richard Feynman was also here | Zombie Feynman's Trivial Theorem: It's trivial! It's trivial! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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21:24:53 <ais523> elliott: gah, see recent edits to [[Entropy]]
21:24:55 <ais523> my brain is melting slightly
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21:36:05 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
21:45:40 <lambdabot> Local time for Phantom_Hoover is Tue Apr 3 21:42:11
21:46:07 <Phantom_Hoover> I haven't changed the time zone on my laptop, unsurprisingly.
21:47:12 <elliott> Sure thing, Phantom "actually in Gettysburg St., America, Scotland" Hoover.
21:54:51 <shachaf> elliott: "more of" is stretching it.
21:56:39 <shachaf> elliott "yields falsehood when quoted and placed as his own middle name" elliott
21:57:19 <shachaf> elliott "i disagree" elliott
21:58:31 <ais523> shachaf: so elliott "elliott" elliott is a liar?
21:58:50 <elliott> ais523: no, elliott "yields falsehood when quoted and placed as his own middle name" elliott is
21:59:20 <ais523> but no, that's referring to the wrong thing there
21:59:38 <ais523> this is a quine because the bits inside the parens are used to generate the bits outside the parens
21:59:49 <ais523> whereas that's closer to the example shachaf gave
21:59:56 <shachaf> > text$ap(++)show"text$ap(++)show"
21:59:59 <ais523> it generates extra elliotts, rather than quining
22:00:11 <ais523> > text$ap(++)show"elliott"
22:00:26 <shachaf> Did I accidentally generate an extra elliott. :-(
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22:10:22 <oerjan> i'm not sure, but i'm checking my fever again
22:10:46 <Phantom_Hoover> "ns151 delivers a righteous speech directed against the anti-American rhetoric on Reddit." (r/bestof)
22:12:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: tl;dr "OK, our country is really terrible and shitty, but we're not North Korea, also if any other country had our resources they'd be literally Satan too, so there, and also people who want to leave are cowards and fuck them".
22:12:33 <elliott> (Last part only barely paraphrased: "And to the Americans who come on here and whine about how much they want to leave and go to live in places they have never even visited: fuck you. Not in a "love America or get the fuck out" kind of way, but because you are an embarrassment to everything this country was founded on 230 years ago. You'd rather just pack up and leave than stay and fight for what you believe in.")
22:15:12 <elliott> (Also "rhetoric", as if reddit is home to anything that could be non-sarcastically described as rhetoric.)
22:17:21 <oerjan> hm it's slightly up to 39.6, but i'm feeling _less_ shitty
22:17:35 -!- oerjan has set topic: For Sale: Infinite Tape, Never Used | Richard Feynman was also here | Zombie oerjan's Trivial Theorem: It's trivial! It's trivial! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:18:35 <ais523> oerjan: I hope you recover soon
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22:19:08 <oerjan> i hope so too, i'm worried about not getting food bought for the holidays
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22:19:53 <elliott> wtf, since when are we nice to suffering people in here!
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22:20:11 <elliott> oerjan: i hope you recover slowly. (see, that's a half-way point!)
22:20:46 <ais523> elliott: we were pretty nice to you when you were suffering
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22:21:45 <elliott> ais523: no, that was feigned to get on my good side, because you don't want to be the ones suffering when i rise to president of the world and my new world order begins
22:21:58 <elliott> at least, everyone else's was. my condolences if you had to settle for sincerity :P
22:22:18 <ais523> elliott: would you believe /me/ to be insincere about something like that?
22:22:22 <ais523> remember that I'm lawful good ;)
22:22:51 <ais523> lawful good people are famously obnoxious
22:23:14 <elliott> Did anyone ever work out what I am?
22:23:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left ("Leaving").
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22:24:00 <elliott> I just checked, I'm not chaotic.
22:24:21 <elliott> I'm not original-meaning-of-chaotic.
22:24:30 <elliott> I might be new-meaning-of-chaotic.
22:24:41 <elliott> Neutral seems more likely to me, though.
22:31:52 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I don't see how I'm neutral on the good/evil alignment...
22:32:05 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/scifi/comments/rm5o4/does_hard_scifi_even_exist_in_hollywood/
22:32:20 <Phantom_Hoover> "I'm looking for a film that displays at least a hint of scientific accuracy."
22:33:19 <elliott> What, were you going to say that too?
22:33:54 <RocketJSquirrel> Until it goes all loopy, 2001: A Space Odyssey is reasonably hard. Then it's just high.
22:35:16 <RocketJSquirrel> The fact that it was on MST3K tells you how well hard sci-fi does.
22:35:57 <elliott> Frankly hard sci-fi with the explicit intention of being hard tends to be pretty terrible.
22:36:27 <RocketJSquirrel> Mainly because the real universe is pretty fucking depressing ^^
22:36:39 <elliott> "However, because Virgil was not designed to jettison undamaged compartments, the plan requires someone to deactivate a safety switch in Virgil that is located in an area exposed to the extreme temperatures of the core. Brazzelton volunteers and successfully deactivates the switch, dying shortly afterwards."
22:36:54 <elliott> I... don't think the writers fully understood how hot the Earth's core is?
22:37:19 <elliott> "Oh, sure, I'll sacrifice mysAAAAAAAAAAERIOHGl'f'"
22:37:21 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: He flips the switch during the microsecond before he's fully evaporated.
22:37:34 <Phantom_Hoover> "Wouldn't it be cool if..." can be good, sometimes, but invariably scrimp on the non-central science involved (cf. Tau Zero), and "I WILL WRITE HARD SCI-FI" invariably has a terrible plot and a boring setting.
22:37:56 <RocketJSquirrel> There's got to be at least a few that are hard-modulo-FTL.
22:38:09 <RocketJSquirrel> Which is pretty much the minimum acceptable to avoid being depressing as fuck.
22:38:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I mean, interesting hard sci-fi is interesting because it's about the effects of technology on people, society, etc.
22:38:39 <ais523> hmm, asimov's books tend to avoid contradictions with existing science, they just invent new bits of science too
22:38:43 <elliott> But the kind of people who care the sci-fi is AS HARD AS POSSIBLE tend to consider writing stories about things like "people" beneath them.
22:38:43 <Phantom_Hoover> "Wouldn't it be cool if..." can be good, sometimes, but invariably scrimp on the non-central science involved (cf. Tau Zero), and "I WILL WRITE HARD SCI-FI" invariably has a terrible plot and a boring setting.?
22:39:06 <elliott> "Wouldn't it be cool if..." can be good, sometimes, but invariably scrimp on the non-central science involved (cf. Tau Zero), and "I WILL WRITE HARD SCI-FI" invariably has a terrible plot and a boring setting.?!
22:39:13 <RocketJSquirrel> "Wouldn't it be cool if..." can be good, sometimes, but invariably scrimp on the non-central science involved (cf. Tau Zero), and "I WILL WRITE HARD SCI-FI" invariably has a terrible plot and a boring setting.?!‽
22:39:20 <elliott> (Also, I thought Tau Zero was good? I'ven't read it.)
22:39:27 <HackEgo> 587) <Phantom_Hoover> You mean it'd be Tau Zero but without the spaceship?
22:39:32 <ais523> things like "real-world science exists and is not contradicted, but we also have telepathy and we can do ftl travel using hyperspace"
22:40:06 <elliott> ais523: Pretty sure hyperspace requires a huge amount of glue code to be consistent with existing physics...
22:40:32 <ais523> elliott: well, it's a plot point that nobody actually understands it, the first hyperspace engine was created by an insane robot
22:40:38 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> (Also, I thought Tau Zero was good? I'ven't read it.)
22:40:41 <elliott> Ohh, right, Tau Zero has a terrible ending.
22:41:01 <elliott> (I thought it just did took obvious super-depressing route.)
22:41:14 <Phantom_Hoover> It is; I just doubt very much that the Leonora was feasible at the time.
22:41:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't remember when Bussard ramjets were discredited.
22:41:48 <elliott> "The universe collapses into a cosmic egg (which the starship survives because there is still enough uncondensed hydrogen for maneuvering, outside the monobloc)"
22:41:55 <elliott> I like the part where they survive a Big Bang.
22:42:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet suggests they're not totally.
22:42:23 <pikhq> That sounds positively Adams-like.
22:42:39 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: They're just not as good as they were thought to be.
22:42:47 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TauZero(Anderson).jpg I am not exactly convinced this cover means something.
22:43:17 <pikhq> (courtesy of the interstellar medium being less dense than we thought)
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22:44:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: also should I watch Primer.
22:44:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Also Tau Zero has a tonne of handwaving with "magnetohydrodynamic fields" which are real but I suspect don't do half the things they're portrayed to.
22:44:47 <elliott> I already more-or-less know the plot.
22:44:56 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, Primer has a bad plot or something apparently?
22:45:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Are you sure you didn't just get that from the reddit post?
22:53:27 <RocketJSquirrel> Now, let us analyze the position of My Little Pony on the scale of "hard" or "soft" AI, and see which problems can be rectified to harden it.
22:53:53 <elliott> /ignore RocketJSquirrel*!*@* all
22:55:20 <RocketJSquirrel> CLEARLY THAT MISTAKE IS WHY ELLIOTT IS IGNORING ME SO I WILL GO ON
22:55:45 <RocketJSquirrel> Problem #1: Pegasi are a highly unlikely modification to the pony bauplan (and we haven't even mentioned unicorns yet!)
22:56:03 <elliott> I was under the impression you had a channel for this.
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22:57:02 <RocketJSquirrel> Indeed I do, but I'm not /harassing/ people in there, so it's no fun.
22:57:56 <Patashu> my little pony is the hardest sci-fi
22:58:44 <RocketJSquirrel> Phantom_Hoover: I've become accustomed to buying dinner to go and dividing it into two meals.
22:58:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I have a very strong compulsion to finish meals and I don't think I've finished either of the ones I've had here.
22:59:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Have you SUPERSISED any yet?
22:59:20 <RocketJSquirrel> I have a friend who's "adapted" by eating only one meal per day.
22:59:23 <elliott> OK, "supersised" looks ridiculous.
22:59:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm told my grandfather once tried to make a scale model of this.
23:00:12 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: It took me a minute to realise that was actually incorrect >_>
23:01:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Doesn't it... upset you a bit to be on such a gigantic island?
23:01:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I mean, America is pretty terrifying!
23:01:23 <RocketJSquirrel> e.g. this is a very superse meal from McDonalds, I think I'll die of a stroke now.
23:01:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Um what is the difference except SISE
23:01:38 <elliott> Continent am just very big island.
23:01:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Also they make up for it by thinking buildings made a century ago are old.
23:02:12 <RocketJSquirrel> Phantom_Hoover: But we do by having air conditioning in every building that actually gets lived in, thanks to demolishing any building over a century old :)
23:02:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Joke's on you, the UK climate is so stable that air conditioning is rarely needed.
23:03:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what am the weather like there.
23:03:37 -!- augur has joined.
23:03:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Hot, but not any more than Edinburgh a little further into summer.
23:04:44 <RocketJSquirrel> It's nice to live in a place where the weather is always miserable.
23:05:08 <Phantom_Hoover> It stays hot for longer, though; the evenings aren't as pronounced.
23:05:08 <Phantom_Hoover> (Fun fact: in midwinter, the sun at midday in Edinburgh is 8° from the horizon.)
23:05:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:05:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That fact isn't... fun?
23:06:54 -!- augur has joined.
23:07:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What time is it in... "America".
23:07:32 <Phantom_Hoover> RocketJSquirrel, I prefer to say that the weather is always comfortable, because it... is.
23:07:53 <elliott> (Phantom_Hoover constantly wears jumpers.)
23:08:25 <lambdabot> Local time for Phantom_Hoover is Tue Apr 3 23:04:55
23:08:30 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 00:08:25
23:08:30 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 00:08:25
23:08:30 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 00:08:25
23:08:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, so even if it gets hot I can take it off and walking is still comfortable (although as is readily apparent from going through America for any length of time, you can't walk anywhere there anyway).
23:08:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Dude, your time is wrong even for the other place you're in.
23:08:52 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 00:08:47
23:09:18 <elliott> It's an hour and 5 minutes.
23:09:48 <elliott> 19:09. Is it really only 19:09 there Phantom_Hoover? It's night time!
23:09:58 <elliott> (I am honestly not faking my disbelief, countries are weird and timezones are weird.)
23:11:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Are the trains really as bad as they say?
23:11:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I... don't think they have trains in America for commuter use.
23:11:57 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 00:11:52
23:12:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Although dude, who uses trains in the UK except for long-range travel through the UK?
23:12:35 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: What about all those trains in the US?
23:12:38 <elliott> I mean, we don't have a car.
23:12:41 <Phantom_Hoover> (Yesyesyes Gregor, I know long-range in the UK is nonexistent in the US.)
23:13:03 <shachaf> elliott: "we" being "the UK"?
23:13:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, what about ``am'' ''trek''?
23:14:05 <Phantom_Hoover> But um I guess you must have completely different travel needs to me.
23:14:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not saying I use trains in place of walking?
23:14:44 <Phantom_Hoover> The trips to Ireland more or less require taking a car over a ferry.
23:14:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But, I mean, trains are way nicer than buses.
23:15:01 <shachaf> Speaking of ferries, WA has ferries.
23:15:05 <elliott> (But not long distances, just longer.)
23:15:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And yes but who goes to Ireland?
23:15:25 <elliott> And, mm... not really long-range.
23:15:35 <elliott> If I wanted to go to Newcastle, the nearest city, I'd use a trainular device.
23:16:04 <elliott> That's 22.6 miles, apparently.
23:17:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The part of the US you're in looks boring.
23:17:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm going to Annapolis later? It has that crazy bridge that was on Cracked a while ago.
23:17:53 <elliott> I like how Wyoming is rectangular.
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23:18:53 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: What's the best US state?
23:19:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Whoa, what the fuck? I didn't know the Americas joined up like *that*.
23:20:03 <elliott> My understanding of geography is... woefully poor.
23:20:14 <elliott> Like, Panama is all sideways and shit.
23:20:29 <elliott> I thought they were more like, above-below.
23:20:58 <elliott> North America is a really ugly shape, mind you.
23:22:52 <elliott> Oregon's pretty, isn't it? I don't really know.
23:22:53 <kmc> hi shachaf
23:23:04 <kmc> UK has tons of commuter trains
23:23:08 <kmc> and several major transit systems
23:23:16 <kmc> so that's "who uses trains in the UK except for long-range travel"
23:23:24 <elliott> You realise Phantom_Hoover is Scottish, right?
23:23:47 <Phantom_Hoover> There are the trams but... the less said about the trams, the better.
23:23:49 <kmc> also major US cities do have commuter rail networks
23:24:37 <kmc> NYC, Chicago, Boston, Philly, LA, SF, Baltimore/DC, Miami, etc.
23:24:45 <kmc> in roughly decreasing order of ridership
23:24:51 <RocketJSquirrel> <elliott> Oregon's pretty, isn't it? I don't really know. // The parts of Oregon anybody knows about are lush and green.
23:24:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover is in Penicillin.
23:25:07 <kmc> they tend to be shitty compared to European or Asian systems, but they do run and lots of people us them
23:25:07 <RocketJSquirrel> The vast majority is just barely on the tundra side of being called a "desert"
23:25:48 <elliott> I get the feeling kmc Knows About Trains.
23:25:53 <kmc> "About one in every three users of mass transit in the United States and two-thirds of the nation's rail riders live in New York and its suburbs."
23:26:06 <Phantom_Hoover> That's one of the Weird Things in America, the scrubland is pretty different.
23:26:15 <elliott> Moer like New Reallyboringstate.
23:26:41 <elliott> *More. That was unintentional. :/
23:27:38 <Phantom_Hoover> The disparate space sim enthusiasts are going to be divided further by a game made by *Notch*.
23:28:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Seamlessly landing on planets." Sorry I am SOLD.
23:28:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Which will inevitably be a disappointment, but may get far enough developed that it sucks interest into Notch's shitty MMO design.
23:28:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes exactly.
23:28:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That game isn't ever going to exist.
23:28:55 <elliott> This one looks like it might.
23:29:35 <shachaf> elliott: I've been to Oregon!
23:29:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Notch's personality cult will see that no constructive criticism can be made and it'll be a technical shambles (we've all seen what he thinks constitutes procedural generation, for one thing).
23:29:50 <shachaf> I don't recommend Medford, OR.
23:29:59 <shachaf> If you're going to visit Oregon, don't go to Medford.
23:30:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Also I have a suspicion this'll be an EVE-style "right click to fight ship" deal.
23:31:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't think Notch is inherently incompetent, he just mismanaged Minecraft.
23:31:40 <shachaf> In fact, I went from WA to CA through OR.
23:31:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, and who wrote the decent one in the first place?
23:31:57 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, sure, but planetary terrain gen is more demanding than MC's.
23:32:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's also not constrained to 1x1x1 m blocks.
23:32:49 <Phantom_Hoover> And I'm not saying he's incompetent, I just don't think he's a good maker of games; MC's great success is its core idea, and not a great deal more.
23:33:48 <kmc> is there anything new about that core idea/
23:33:50 <elliott> I'd like to think he's learned something. The "Game Features" and "The Generator and the Computer" are all we have to go on, and they make me thoroughly intrigued, so I'm OK with giving him the benefit of the doubt.
23:34:32 <elliott> kmc: Can we just skip to the part where we recognise that basically every idea in existence is heavily derivative in some way, and that the synthesis and tweaking of existing ideas with a different vision can produce a clearly-derivative idea that is still new and worthwhile in its own right?
23:35:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And I don't think there's been a space sim that lets you write a program to fully automate your ship, at least not in-game.
23:35:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Probably because it's incredibly niche and entertaining to a very small number of people.
23:35:59 <Phantom_Hoover> At least when taken to the level of nonabstraction he has.
23:36:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sorry, I'll revoke my intrigue in the name of populism.
23:36:18 <elliott> shachaf: Can we force O'Reilly to take RWH out of print?
23:37:05 <elliott> "no matter how high the power (c) is to 10 multiplied by 0 would be 0. so 0x10c would imply, end of universe? just a thought. #0x10c"
23:37:37 <shachaf> elliott: What's wrong with RWH?
23:37:44 <shachaf> elliott: I think that's one of those trick sentences.
23:37:49 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well there are programming games aplenty; how many have you enjoyed?
23:38:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Programming game" is a disingenuous comparison; it's clear that there's a spectrum of automation you can choose, and I doubt anyone will automate their entire ship for anything other than kicks.
23:38:27 <elliott> (Anyway, you never played BF Joust.)
23:38:37 <elliott> shachaf: It's hideously out of date, rubbish at teaching the basics, and all the code is ugly.
23:40:01 <kmc> elliott, agree, when i say "anything new" i'm referring to precisely that "tweaking of existing ideas" and "different vision"
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23:40:46 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, how many other resource-gathering construction sandboxes were there before MC?
23:40:54 <kmc> i have no idea
23:42:20 <elliott> kmc: Well, MC is hardly Infiniminer.
23:42:52 <elliott> A cube world isn't a new idea, and nor is a goal-less sandbox game, but Minecraft combined that fully-destructable, procedural block mining terrain with sandbox goals and the focus on creation.
23:43:56 <elliott> There's also the sparseness that it had in the early days that made it very much about isolation, at least in single-player.
23:44:15 <elliott> Unfortunately it went downhill and turned into a really bad RPG.
23:45:07 <Phantom_Hoover> But yeah, I don't really think Notch has the ability to make the game he describes.
23:45:26 <Phantom_Hoover> MC kind of just rolled together with some basic features, after all.
23:45:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Once he started on long-term goals it turned into a really bad RPG.
23:47:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but that was more a problem of vision than anything; he seems to have always intended it to turn into the kind of RPG it did, and the sort of quasi-existential-horror vibe it had going turned out to be an artifact of the development process.
23:47:58 <elliott> But here, the vision seems sound, so that risk isn't really there.
23:48:23 <elliott> The only question is technical ability, and I'd like to think that (a) he's learned enough (Minecraft did get less buggy as it went on, after all), and (b) he has enough competent people in his company to mitigate it.
23:50:54 <Phantom_Hoover> He needs to be able to weave that list of individual cool things into a coherent game, not just implement each in a vacuum.
23:51:21 <elliott> You seem to be mistaking "benefit of the doubt" for "unwavering support". I'm hardly going to pass judgement before it comes out.
23:51:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I know, I'm trying to apply what we know about MC's development.
23:52:06 <Phantom_Hoover> It had plenty of half-implemented, disconnected elements.
23:52:57 <elliott> Also, I think the technical challenge is lessened by the fact that it's obviously going for an at least pseudo-retro style aesthetic, given that the logo is rendered by the game's engine and that 0 has very obvious edges.
23:53:31 <elliott> Oh, I guess "Also, think 1980's." is a more direct affirmation of that.
23:55:30 <elliott> Your abject negativity is absolutely bizarre. I realise Minecraft ended up sucking, but you could twist literally any detail about this game into naysaying.
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23:57:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I quite like space games, and of late I've been increasingly frustrated at the number of good projects which will never succeed due to an abject lack of coordination.
23:57:52 <elliott> You are the only person who can see that a game with a non-terrible vision in an area of your interest is being developed and have it manage to dampen your mood.
23:57:58 <elliott> If it fails, that doesn't affect you at all.
00:02:01 <elliott> reddit.com 0x10c: this reddit has been banned
00:02:01 <elliott> »ehird (1834 · 7323)||mod messages|preferences||logout
00:02:01 <elliott> this reddit has been banned
00:02:01 <elliott> most likely this was done automatically by our spam filtering program. the program is still learning, and may even have some bugs, so if you feel the ban was a mistake, please submit a link to our request a reddit listing and be sure to include the exact name of the reddit.
00:02:05 <elliott> I COULD HAVE BEEN SO FAMOUS
00:02:39 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: What's the second-best US state?
00:03:00 <shachaf> elliott: Stop abusing the bot.
00:04:17 <elliott> shachaf: Why does everybody hate point-free?
00:04:28 -!- augur has joined.
00:04:29 <shachaf> elliott: Because it's the devil?
00:04:36 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Third-best???
00:05:03 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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00:19:38 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: "Tryon Creek is a 4.85-mile (7.81 km) tributary of the Willamette River in the U.S. state of Oregon."
00:20:14 <RocketJSquirrel> ... no? I assume there's a joke or pun or something here, but I don't get it.
00:20:31 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
00:21:00 <RocketJSquirrel> Oh, the fact that it's on the main page? Why would I have such authority?
00:21:20 <elliott> It was a joke, because you had just been extolling the virtues of Oregon
00:21:35 -!- augur has joined.
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00:24:16 <elliott> "However, on Twitter today, Notch announced that he’s registered the domain for the game, to be titled 0x10c. (Where that ‘c’ is in superscript.)"
00:24:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I think you have to thank Notch for demonstrating that the world's journalists are too incompetent to figure out how to use superscripts.
00:27:12 -!- cheater has joined.
00:27:40 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: You get to debug my IRC bot!
00:27:59 <shachaf> elliott: I wrote an IRC bot today!
00:28:02 <elliott> (echo "PASS $(cat esolang-bot-password)"; echo 'NICK esolang'; echo 'USER esolang 8 * :Esolang recent changes bot, see http://esolangs.org/'; echo 'JOIN #esoteric'; echo 'PRIVMSG #esoteric :a privmsg'; while true; do nc -u -l -p 8147 | sed 's/^/PRIVMSG #esoteric :/'; echo; echo; done) | cat -v | nc irc.freenode.net 6667
00:28:05 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: WHY DOESN'T THIS WORK
00:30:13 <monqy> shachaf: is it a good bot
00:30:23 <shachaf> monqy: It's an evil bot. :-(
00:32:07 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14xcsz43Kuw
00:32:36 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Multibot am shit
00:33:12 <elliott> shachaf: Man, I don't even remember this scene.
00:33:22 <elliott> Actually, I don't even remember completing the Neverhood. Maybe I didn't.
00:36:26 <shachaf> elliott: "deploy bear retrieval unit"
00:36:57 <RocketJSquirrel> Damn, the only two superscript letters in Unicode are 'i' and 'n'.
00:37:50 <monqy> still you can make many exciting superscript words
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00:40:15 <elliott> shachaf: I watched that cutscene and now I have a sad.
00:40:20 <elliott> It's your sad. I blame the sad on you. :'(
00:41:06 <shachaf> elliott: The only solution is more sad videos.
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00:41:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What time is it in Canada?
00:43:04 <shachaf> monqy: Don't you mean: ⁿⁿoⁿqy
00:44:40 <shachaf> elliott: You should play the Neverhood.
00:44:51 <elliott> I've played the Neverhood, dude.
00:45:01 <shachaf> You should complete the Neverhood.
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00:46:23 <elliott> I might have. My memory is notoriously aardvark.
00:47:17 <elliott> shachaf: Write my MediaWiki extension for me.
00:47:51 <shachaf> elliott: I wrote it in bash and all it does is print "hi monqy".
00:49:27 <elliott> 01704 # Special case optimisation
00:49:30 <elliott> YOU'RE A SPECIAL CASE OPTIMISATION
00:50:05 <shachaf> 01704 TAGALOG LETTER GA [ᜄ]
00:50:11 <elliott> 01033 wfRunHooks( 'UserLoadFromDatabase', array( $this, &$s ) );
00:50:15 <shachaf> YOU'RE A TAGALOG LETTER GA
00:50:33 <shachaf> 01033 MYANMAR VOWEL SIGN MON II [ဳ]
00:58:28 <kmc> Unicode calls it "Myanmar" and not "Burmese"??
00:59:48 <elliott> kmc: probably for "neutrality"
01:01:15 <kmc> er, why would one or the other be neutral?
01:01:33 <elliott> that's why i put it in scare quotes :P
01:01:37 <kmc> each term will be seen by some as implicitly supporting or rejecting the junta government
01:01:57 <kmc> "myanmar" is the official name according to the country's present rulers, so maybe that's what they go on
01:02:04 <kmc> but what about languages used in more than one country
01:02:23 <elliott> implicitly accepting the official name probably seemed less of a political move than going against it, even if they both have connotations in reality
01:02:30 <elliott> apparently the UN call it Myanmar
01:05:00 <elliott> mediawiki really dosen't like having lowercase usernames
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01:07:05 <elliott> kmc: train expert, mediawiki expert
01:08:22 <kmc> the UN has more direct need to appease the present government of MyanBurma as opposed to historical or linguistic concerns
01:08:27 <kmc> see also: FYROM
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01:19:41 <elliott> more like firey ROM am i 'correct'
01:24:16 <shachaf> lambdabot: is elliott 'correct'
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01:38:24 <zzo38> The dvi-processing package I send doesn't work so hopefully this time I will fix it.
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02:10:21 <RocketJSquirrel> Ruh roh, my nasty zombifoot picture is now in my Google Images results ...
02:15:11 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Take it down and I'll kill you.
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02:27:43 <shachaf> kmc: You always talk about how annoying it is that you can't get various simple data structures as part of the C standard library, right?
02:30:45 <shachaf> Do you have a simple solution to that problem? :-(
02:31:43 <shachaf> The simplest thing that comes to mind for some use cases is "use C++", since it has a pretty good C FFI and all.
02:32:59 <kmc> my solution is usually "think about the problem really hard until you don't need as many datastructures"
02:33:31 <kmc> sometimes you can use the pitiful builtin stuff like qsort, bsearch, hsearch, tsearch
02:33:43 <kmc> (actually i did not know about the last one until just now)
02:33:58 <kmc> and i mean, there *are* data structure libraries for C, you just need to find them and figure out how to use and link and distribute them
02:34:03 <pikhq> The trick is to pretend malloc will kill you.
02:34:26 <kmc> often the trick is to not care about performance until you need to
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02:34:48 <kmc> like a problem I would do with an associative data structure in Haskell or Python, i will solve first with a linear search in C
02:35:05 <kmc> because doing anything better is a pain, and it usually doesn't matter
02:35:18 <kmc> and C code tends to run really fast to begin with
02:37:14 <kmc> i see this a lot in Linux kernel and associated tools
02:37:25 <kmc> which you may rest assured is written by C-loving Real Programmers
02:37:49 <kmc> the Linux kernel did not even have a generic binary search function until recently
02:37:55 <elliott> <kmc> often the trick is to not care about performance until you need to
02:38:00 <kmc> every system that needed one would code their own
02:38:11 <kmc> often they make the classic bsearch mistake
02:38:39 <shachaf> If the main reason I want to use C is that I'm calling C functions, maybe I should just use a higher-level language with an FFI.
02:38:42 <kmc> bsearch is easy enough that most people won't believe you when you tell them people frequently screw it up
02:38:51 <shachaf> What's the classic bsearch mistake?
02:38:57 <kmc> mid = (start+end)/2
02:39:12 <kmc> shachaf, have you used Python's ctypes module?
02:39:14 <shachaf> Oh, that classic bsearch mistake.
02:39:23 <kmc> it's really slick
02:39:49 <shachaf> The problem with using C FFIs in higher-level languages is that you immediately want to make a higher-level interface to the C functions.
02:40:03 <shachaf> And you can spend any amount of time on that.
02:40:07 <kmc> ctypes.CDLL("libc.so.6").printf("Hello, %s!\n", "world")
02:42:11 <kmc> it doesn't have any typechecking, though
02:43:22 <shachaf> Haskell's FFI is also pretty nice.
02:43:35 <shachaf> But C-style code in Haskell looks really ugly next to Haskell-style code.
02:45:41 <shachaf> What's a reasonable way of running a system call with ptrace, by the way?
02:49:00 <kmc> you mean, you want to attach to another process and force it to make a system call?
02:49:24 <kmc> nelhage spend some time on that question for reptyr
02:49:39 <shachaf> WHen I did this before I just overwrote the instruction at ~%rip with the system call instruction.
02:49:47 <shachaf> But that doesn't seem very thread-safe, if nothing else.
02:50:00 <elliott> shachaf: That's what weboflies does.
02:50:30 <shachaf> elliott: What's a Webo Flies?
02:50:32 <kmc> i recommend doing whatever he does
02:50:37 <kmc> unless it's obviously crazy
02:50:45 <shachaf> kmc: Is this general life advice or about ptrace in particular?
02:50:55 -!- Tod-Autojoined2 has changed nick to TodPunk.
02:50:55 <RocketJSquirrel> You can arbitrarily modify its registers, can't you? So you should be able to essentially force it into a function call, and generate the function.
02:51:13 <elliott> Why didn't kmc tell me about reptyr before now?
02:51:15 <shachaf> RocketJSquirrel: Right, but I don't want to just overwrite arbitrary memory that may be used by other threads.
02:51:23 <shachaf> elliott: Because you weren't in #haskell-blah.
02:51:30 <elliott> shachaf: RocketJSquirrel means just set the stack pointer.
02:51:30 <shachaf> I'm pretty sure kmc told #-blah about reptyr a while ago.
02:51:42 <elliott> shachaf: I think that's a net negative.
02:51:47 <kmc> shachaf, some from column A, more from column B
02:51:48 <RocketJSquirrel> shachaf: Just generate a function that does pushall, the syscall, popall, ret, spluf the stack pointer and IP to be in that function, and let it go.
02:51:57 <shachaf> What does the stack pointer have to do with it?
02:52:08 <kmc> i think his approach involves waiting until the program does a syscall, and rewriting the args on the way
02:52:10 <shachaf> RocketJSquirrel: I don't need to push registers. I already know the debugee's registers.
02:52:26 <kmc> and adjusting the saved PC so it hits the syscall instruction again
02:52:27 <elliott> I'm just saying that RocketJSquirrel's solution means you can just allocate more memory.
02:52:30 <shachaf> kmc: Oh. That seems annoyingly complicated.
02:52:44 <kmc> you can do multiple syscalls in a row this way, but you have to wait for the program to try to do one first
02:52:45 <elliott> kmc: Can you tell that person who wrote reptyr I have a feature request? The feature request is that it should support migrating processes to other machines too. Thx
02:52:47 <shachaf> What if the program doesn't do any system calls?
02:52:59 <kmc> shachaf, it seems to me less fragile than other-modifying code
02:53:06 <lambdabot> Title: CryoPID - A Process Freezer for Linux
02:53:06 <RocketJSquirrel> shachaf: You're generating a function /for the guest/, which may or may not need to pushall depending on what the syscall code does.
02:53:16 <kmc> if it doesn't do any system calls, then you need some additional hax
02:53:18 <shachaf> RocketJSquirrel: The question is where I write that function.
02:53:26 <shachaf> kmc: Right -- which is why I was thinking of using the VDSO.
02:53:37 <kmc> istr his approach is more involved than what I just said, so you should read the reptyr code
02:53:37 <RocketJSquirrel> shachaf: Admittedly I don't know the ptrace interface well enough to answer that.
02:53:54 <kmc> well on x86-64 Linux the VDSO doesn't have an address for generic "jump here to make a syscall", iirc
02:54:09 <shachaf> Alternatively I could search the process's address space for a system call instruction, but I don't like that.
02:54:13 <kmc> but there probably *is* a syscall instruction somewhere in the VDSO
02:54:18 <shachaf> kmc: All I need is a "syscall" or "inx $0x80" instruction.
02:54:33 <shachaf> Searching a few pages is better than searching the entire address space of the process.
02:54:47 <elliott> shachaf: You don't know there'll be such an instruction!
02:54:50 <elliott> What is shachaf doing, anyway?
02:56:02 <shachaf> nelhage made reptyr portable?
02:56:09 <shachaf> He is clearly a better person than I am.
02:56:13 <kmc> how portable are we talking
02:56:42 <shachaf> Not that portable, I guess.
02:57:06 <kmc> there are at least two common ARM Linux syscall ABIs
02:57:22 <kmc> but i suppose that's no worse than x86
02:58:02 <kmc> shachaf, dude, did i tell you about the magical arm qemu schroot??
03:00:16 <elliott> I think kmc is just making up words.
03:00:25 <kmc> no this shit is fantastic
03:00:39 <elliott> shachaf: Wait, CryoPID works across machines?
03:00:48 <kmc> both that it works at all, and that it works as described out of the box without bullshit
03:00:56 <kmc> sudo apt-get install ubuntu-dev-tools qemu-user-static; mk-sbuild --arch=armel precise; sudo schroot -c precise-armel-source
03:00:59 <elliott> "Last updated: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 23:22:37 +0800" -- I guess you need a flexible definition of "works".
03:01:08 <shachaf> elliott: Doesn't it? Assuming the machines are similar enough.
03:01:19 <shachaf> elliott: The author is on IRC. I talked to them in #cryopid once!
03:03:15 <kmc> shachaf, running this on amd64 linux gives you a chroot full of ARM Linux binaries (specifically, Ubuntu 12.04 for armel) which work fine and talk to the native OS/kernel
03:03:33 * shachaf is still in the downloading phase.
03:03:39 <shachaf> Wait, will this download all of Ubuntu?
03:04:10 <kmc> yes, it will install ubuntu in a chroot (debootstrap-style)
03:04:48 <kmc> qemu can do CPU emulation for a single process, while also translating the system call ABI
03:05:00 <shachaf> Oh, now I see what you mean.
03:05:01 <kmc> so you can run an ARM Linux binary on amd64 Linux without emulating a whole ARM system
03:05:24 <kmc> this also sets up a binfmt_misc handler so you can execve(2) ARM Linux binaries directly
03:05:41 <kmc> and the handler is statically linked qemu-arm-static so it works even in the chroot, where ld-linux.so.3 is an ARM executable
03:06:21 <kmc> and so it works like any other chroot
03:06:41 <kmc> which led to a comment by me "ttants: halting a VM, halting a chroot"
03:06:51 <kmc> ttants = Things That Are Not The Same
03:07:28 <Sgeo> elliott, hey, what was NQwhatever trying to say when he wanted to be unbanned?
03:08:00 <kmc> shachaf, schroot itself is also pretty nice
03:08:18 <elliott> Sgeo: He has never asked to be unblocked.
03:08:24 <elliott> Indeed, he has never even acknowledged that he is blocked.
03:08:27 <shachaf> kmc: I'm still doing the apt-get. :-(
03:08:34 <shachaf> I don't got that kinda bandwidth, man.
03:08:37 <kmc> it's a nice way to manage persistent ("-source") chroots and ephemeral copy-on-write sessions of those
03:08:45 <Sgeo> elliott, he did in here, did you read logs?
03:08:49 <kmc> it's what debian and ubuntu use for most (all?) of their package building
03:08:50 <Sgeo> Well, talked about it
03:09:03 <kmc> it can do the COW by various methods (aufs, lvm snapshot)
03:09:04 <elliott> Never mind, I will search.
03:09:19 <elliott> 11:46:37: <NSQX> If anyone unblocks me I will work on UniCode, but unfortunately, nobody will.
03:09:21 <kmc> but if you have enuf RAM, the best way is to store the source chroot as a tarball and untar it into a ramfs ;P
03:09:26 <kmc> and it supports that too
03:09:26 <elliott> I wonder if this is meant to make me *want* to unblock him.
03:09:33 <kmc> because the sequential read on the tarball is fast
03:09:39 <elliott> 12:57:58: <NSQX> I'm only waiting for the time when I can ask an administrator to unblock me.
03:09:50 <elliott> Sgeo: Well, I told him how to appeal his block (on his user talk page).
03:10:12 <elliott> Sgeo: If he wants to do it on IRC, it'll have to be when I'm around.
03:10:20 <kmc> I guess it's a bit much to ask someone to fit an entire debian install in RAM
03:17:22 <shachaf> ***********************************************
03:17:22 <shachaf> * Before continuing, you MUST restart your *
03:17:22 <shachaf> * session to gain "sbuild" group permissions! *
03:17:22 <shachaf> ***********************************************
03:17:55 <shachaf> Restarting my session is far too much of a hassle.
03:18:31 <kmc> oh, i finally figured out a workaround
03:18:44 <kmc> su - shachaf
03:18:56 <shachaf> Right, I just figured that out.
03:19:02 <shachaf> Actually I did sudo su - and then su - shachaf
03:19:03 <kmc> or "ssh localhost" ;)
03:19:05 <shachaf> But I guess it works directly too.
03:19:29 <shachaf> Why is that restriction, anyway?
03:19:36 <shachaf> For that matter, how do groups actually work in UNIX?
03:19:40 <kmc> yeah i don't know
03:19:46 <kmc> i think the answer to B will give you the answer to A
03:20:13 <kmc> the explanation i've heard is that "login" maps your alphanumeric username to a uid, and similarly it maps your set of group names to a set of gids
03:20:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
03:20:36 <elliott> Groups are one of those weird things. Like how environment variables don't actually exist.
03:20:39 <kmc> it's probably a good thing that the kernel is not reading /etc/groups on every file access
03:20:40 <shachaf> Right. So the kernel associates a set of gids with a particular process?
03:20:42 <kmc> elliott, they don't?
03:20:50 <elliott> kmc: Only when you start a new program!
03:20:54 <elliott> The rest is, like, a libc illusion, man.
03:21:14 <kmc> they exist as just some data on the stack
03:21:14 <elliott> shachaf: Environment variables are just things you pass to exec.
03:21:21 <elliott> The mutable environment you get in C is just managed by libc.
03:21:42 <shachaf> That's "existing" in my book.
03:22:02 <kmc> is that the environment as of execve
03:22:18 <pikhq> Should be. Kernel has no way of knowing anything else.
03:22:21 <elliott> No, it's the contents of /prof/self/environ.
03:22:25 <shachaf> kmc: Looks like ptrace syscalls work the way you described, by the way.
03:22:47 <shachaf> By waiting for a syscall to happen.
03:23:28 <elliott> shachaf: Just ask ais523 what Web o' Flies doe.
03:23:31 <elliott> Or I can check it for you.
03:23:35 <elliott> Do you want me to check it for you?
03:23:52 <elliott> Web o' Flies is the most terrible program ever written.
03:23:56 <elliott> It makes Linux deterministic in user-space.
03:24:05 <elliott> That means it does its own scheduling, for one thing.
03:24:21 <shachaf> I don't think nelhage's solution will work that well for me.
03:24:39 <elliott> OK, lemme figure out where weboflies.c is.
03:24:51 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe if I'm tracing a process from the beginning, I can just allocate a page for myself right as the program starts.
03:25:09 <shachaf> Maybe I should ask nelhage for his rationale.
03:25:12 <pikhq> Web o' Flies is the most *amazing* program ever written, you mean.
03:25:24 <shachaf> I imagine it's along the lines of "it was the simplest reasonably-elegant thing to do".
03:26:16 <kmc> shachaf, https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/include/linux/cred.h#L31 https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/include/linux/cred.h#L150
03:27:30 <shachaf> elliott: DragonFly BSD will also do it.
03:28:21 <elliott> shachaf: What, process migration? Yeah, I know.
03:29:30 <kmc> so yeah, there's just an array of gids basically
03:29:47 <kmc> 'struct cred' is the struct that holds all the uid / euid / gid nonsense
03:29:59 <kmc> it used to be part of the task struct but was factored out in 2.6.20something
03:30:06 <shachaf> I always thought of a user as being "in a" group.
03:30:28 <kmc> i mostly know about it because of commit_creds(prepare_kernel_cred(NULL)) :D
03:30:43 <kmc> (ah it was 2.6.29)
03:32:20 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: PANG YOU SDLJKF
03:34:03 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: UR NOT SO ROKIT AFTERR ALL
03:35:00 <shachaf> Finding the VDSO involves parsing /proc/pid/maps, right?
03:37:37 <zzo38> I did read the IRC logs; Canada is different to United Kingdom (except the queen).
03:38:28 <elliott> ais523: how does weboflies force the running program to do a syscall? (does it ever?)
03:38:36 <elliott> or, more generally, how does it force the running program to do anything :)
03:38:43 <ais523> it only needs to do so when the running program's already doing a syscall
03:38:52 <ais523> in which case it just rewinds the IP to just before the syscall so that it does another syscall
03:39:02 <ais523> then it edits which syscall it is in memory
03:39:32 <ais523> (strangely, it turns out that Linux's ABI actually requires it to be possible to repeat a syscall by rewinding the IP two bytes on x86, but just to be sure I check the asm to make sure that it's the asm for a syscall)
03:39:36 <ais523> (well, the machine code)
03:40:08 <elliott> shachaf: Hope that was unhelpful!
03:40:22 <elliott> ais523: How would you make a ptrace-running program do a syscall if it isn't planning to?
03:41:06 <ais523> elliott: well, you need the program to be stopped to do anything, which requires the use of SIGTRAP, I guess
03:41:25 <ais523> then you could rewind the IP two bytes, remember what those are, and replace them with a syscall instruction
03:41:34 <ais523> then catch the syscall returning and put the bytes back to what they were
03:41:49 <ais523> not entirely sure why you'd want to do that, but that's the easiest way I can think of
03:42:35 <elliott> Other threads might access that code.
03:43:08 <ais523> hmm, right, I guess, you'd have to ptrace and stop them too
03:43:22 <elliott> ais523: What if you don't want to stop them?
03:43:25 <ais523> you can ptrace into threads by trapping the fork and clone syscalls
03:43:30 <elliott> ais523: Could you allocate some memory to store some code in to set the IP to, perhaps?
03:43:49 <ais523> well, that would require a syscall
03:43:58 <shachaf> Oh, wait, you wrote something in here.
03:44:00 <ais523> so you'd have a bit of a chicken and egg problem
03:44:17 <shachaf> ais523: Oh, so it does what reptyr does.
03:44:18 <ais523> however, you could just inject the memory allocation into one of the syscalls ld-linux.so made while loading the executable
03:44:28 <ais523> so yes, that might work
03:44:38 <ais523> I'm increasingly dubious about what you'd want this for, though :)
03:45:06 <ais523> shachaf: /proc/pid/maps is the easiest and officially supported way to find the VDSO, I think
03:46:07 <shachaf> ais523: What, making a system call in the debugee? Is that too much to ask?
03:46:18 <ais523> shachaf: what specifically are you trying to do? and when?
03:46:46 <ais523> the problem is that while a program's making a system call, it's executing kernel rather than user code (or rather, the kernel's executing code on its behalf)
03:46:55 <ais523> so putting it at arbitrary points in the code is probably a bad idea
03:47:10 <ais523> if you just want to add your own syscalls where it's already making syscalls, it's easy (and web of lies does that to some extent)
03:47:20 <ais523> either replacing the original syscall, or using it plus an extra one
03:47:25 <shachaf> It's just an instruction, and everything goes through the registers anyway.
03:48:09 <ais523> shachaf: right; and running arbitrary asm instructions would also be difficult
03:48:15 <ais523> if you didn't want to break thread-safety
03:48:33 <ais523> (although typically you could just do their result on the process's memory and registers directly)
03:48:52 <ais523> again, I ask: what are you trying to do? I've given my explanations as to the answer to your question, but have a suspicion that you're asking the wrong question
03:49:13 <shachaf> ais523: So what I'm planning on doing now is using the VDSO to make the system call, rather than modifying memory.
03:49:29 <ais523> shachaf: you are ignoring me
03:49:58 <shachaf> ais523: I want to call mmap() and mprotect() and that sort of thing on a debugged process.
03:50:43 <ais523> well, your debugger's going to be inserting trap instructions into the code anyway, isn't it?
03:51:07 <ais523> shachaf: well, how does your debugger stop the code?
03:51:17 <shachaf> PTRACE_ATTACH or something.
03:51:36 <shachaf> However they normally do it before there are any breakpoints.
03:51:50 <ais523> they normally use PTRACE_TRACEME in a child process
03:52:01 <ais523> and then get that child process to exec the thing it's debugging
03:52:08 <ais523> so the process is being ptraced all the time it exists
03:52:09 <shachaf> If they're running a new program, yes.
03:52:18 <shachaf> In which case I can allocate memory for it anyway.
03:52:18 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
03:52:26 <shachaf> But in other cases they attach to a running process.
03:52:35 <ais523> using PTRACE_ATTACH is equivalent to sending the process SIGSTOP and catching that
03:52:57 <ais523> so you're stopping the process with signals
03:53:06 <ais523> debuggers normally don't do that, though, because it's very hard to aim
03:53:36 <shachaf> I don't know that I care about precision too much.
03:53:42 <ais523> typically they're aiming for a particular point in the code, rather than just "whenever my SIGSTOP/SIGTRAP happens to land"
03:54:05 <kmc> cool, nelson wrote a whole blog series on termios
03:54:18 <elliott> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRLGKJSLFKSDFL:SDKFSD:LFK
03:54:25 <elliott> A:SLDKLA:SDK:ASLKD:ASDLKASDL:KASDL:KASDL:KAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
03:54:34 <elliott> HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHWHYGODWHYGODWHYHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
03:54:34 <ais523> well, injecting an mmap into a random point of someone else's code isn't necessarily going to produce useful results
03:54:48 <elliott> THEREISNOJUSTICETHEREISONLYSINALLLIFEISSUFERINGOHGODNOTTHEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
03:55:17 <ais523> what if their code is trying to do an mmap at the time, for instance? (that said, it probably wouldn't matter unless whichever one came second had a fixed address)
03:55:43 <kmc> allocating a page to hold a syscall instruction is still a good idea
03:55:55 <shachaf> kmc: Even with the VDSO? Why?
03:56:00 <kmc> well i don't know about that
03:56:24 <ais523> shachaf: anyway, if you're injecting mmaps into their code as it is, why not just inject another mmap to hold the syscall instruction?
03:56:47 <shachaf> ais523: Right -- assuming I can get one to hold a syscall instruction in the first place.
03:56:49 <elliott> because mmap is the syscall?
03:56:58 <kmc> shachaf, i meant that if you're doing what reptyr does -- injecting a syscall when the process does one
03:57:09 <kmc> then you effectively only need to do that once
03:57:18 <kmc> because the syscall you inject can set up a page for making syscalls
03:57:23 <shachaf> In that case, sure, you can allocate a page or something to save yourself from doing it again.
03:57:40 <kmc> by the way, did y'all see the paper that replaced the system call mechanism with user/kernel polling of a memory ringbuffer?
03:58:07 <elliott> Have I mentioned that syscalls are terrible?
03:58:17 <ais523> kmc: no, but it sounds like a bad idea (gut reaction)
03:58:50 <kmc> it's a good idea if you want low latency and high throughput rather than maximum CPU efficiency
03:58:58 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know that syscalls are terrible?
03:59:10 <kmc> i mean what you really want then is to put the kernel on one core and your app on another
03:59:16 <kmc> so there are never any context switches
03:59:24 * kmc tries to find paper
03:59:25 <ais523> @ doesn't have syscalls, it just runs everything in ring 0 and links the kernel into the executable
03:59:37 <kmc> using proof carrying code? :D
03:59:37 <ais523> and instead just statically verifies that the code doesn't break security
03:59:42 <elliott> No, ais523 isn't joking, that's literally waht it does.
03:59:50 <elliott> kmc: Mostly just compilers I arbitrarily ordain to be trusted.
03:59:54 <elliott> But proof carrying code would work too.
03:59:57 <shachaf> I like your tense there, elliott.
04:00:03 <elliott> shachaf: ais523 started it!
04:00:32 <elliott> See, I was just about to ask kmc if he knew that syscalls were terrible. But then ais523 educated him for me.
04:01:03 <kmc> they're terrible in many ways, i don't know which you mean
04:01:14 <ais523> elliott: seen Google Native Client? it seems to have a pretty similar idea to @
04:01:27 <ais523> except with library calls instead
04:01:27 <elliott> ais523: Yes, it's intriguing.
04:01:39 <elliott> kmc: The Way they're broken is that they don't follow the Way (which is whatever @ does).
04:01:43 <elliott> But they're like slow and ugly and shit, you know?
04:01:50 <elliott> @ isn't slow, ugly *or* shit!
04:02:03 <elliott> (And it is, at the same time. That's what's great about vacuous properties.)
04:02:08 <elliott> (See, shachaf, I can do it too!)
04:02:09 <shachaf> @ isn't fast, beautiful, or good.
04:02:13 <shachaf> Well, maybe it's beautiful.
04:02:22 <ais523> elliott: did you try out aimake, btw?
04:02:35 <ais523> is @ written in C? if not, probably not
04:02:36 <kmc> there's a sandboxing idea (don't remember if it's the one used by NaCl) where you have untrusted code running in a seccomp sandbox (so it almost can't make syscalls itself) which communicates with a helper to do syscalls on its behalf
04:02:41 <pikhq> Only @ can compile @
04:02:49 <kmc> thus freeing the kernel from the need to implement more fine-grained sandboxing
04:02:52 <elliott> You guys are all brainw@shed.
04:02:56 <ais523> kmc: NaCl doesn't work like that, not least because it doesn't work on Windows
04:03:13 <elliott> ais523: @ is written in C in the same way that <thing> is <property that doesn't hold of thing>
04:03:32 <elliott> kmc: By the way, ais523 actually lied to you about @.
04:03:46 <kmc> and I think there was a flavor of this where you can run unmodified untrusted Linux x86 code, by replacing the field in the glibc thread structure that says where to jump to do a syscall (which originally points to the VDSO)
04:03:54 <kmc> but that won't work on amd64
04:04:04 <ais523> elliott: right, I should correct it to "things that would traditionally be part of the kernel"
04:04:04 <elliott> <shachaf> In fact, @ doesn't have anything at all.
04:04:21 <ais523> oh, and I fixed an aimake bug recently, well nonportability
04:04:23 <shachaf> elliott: Aw, come on. I wouldn't say that.
04:04:23 <elliott> I think @ is one of those things where, like Feather, it is impossible to know it's not a joke unless you were there before it became a meme.
04:04:26 <ais523> someone complained it didn't run on 5.8
04:04:28 <shachaf> @ has all sorts of great features.
04:04:40 <shachaf> It may not have a type system, but it sure has a hype system.
04:04:44 -!- olsner has joined.
04:05:11 <elliott> ais523: Can you kick shachaf?
04:05:33 <shachaf> ais523: Betcha can't kick me.
04:05:50 <ais523> shachaf: unless I've been deopped recently, sure I /can/
04:05:57 <ais523> whether it would be a good idea is another issue, though
04:06:13 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o olsner.
04:06:23 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -o olsner.
04:06:27 <shachaf> olsner: You heard elliott.
04:06:47 <HackEgo> 594) <ais523> this strikes me as probably better than a singularity, because you can't trust a random AI, but you can probably trust olsner
04:07:02 <zzo38> I have played Dungeons&Dragons game on Sunday this week
04:07:15 * ais523 wonders what the context was
04:07:25 <elliott> don't find out, it'll ruin it
04:07:26 <zzo38> I managed to knock someone down a well, but they can climb back up. At least, now we know, how deep the well is.
04:07:44 <pikhq> zzo38: Aaaah, expendable minion pathfinding.
04:08:05 <kmc> shachaf, ah, here is this paper: http://www.eecg.toronto.edu/~livio/papers/libflexsc-usenix-atc11.pdf
04:08:22 <zzo38> pikhq: No, it was one of our opponents who was fighting us, and in a few rounds they will be able to come back up; but we may have left the room by then.
04:08:25 <elliott> kmc: By the way, @ doesn't need reptyr.
04:08:28 <pikhq> shachaf: Unless by "real" you mean "not real".
04:08:30 <elliott> That's because it doesn't have ptys.
04:08:31 <HackEgo> 469) <oklofok> god created the natural numbers, the rationals were done by man and the work was finally completed (topologically) by satan himself
04:08:35 <HackEgo> 148) <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so is conspiring to conspire to commit a crime a crime? <cpressey> Let's all get together and talk about defacing public property sometime
04:08:37 <zzo38> shachaf: It is just a game. None of the characters are real.
04:08:41 <HackEgo> 393) <Phantom_Hoover> The system I kind of have in mind makes a flying train a natural consequence.
04:08:49 <HackEgo> 553) <Taneb> I think it's fizzie against everyone atm <Taneb> AND EVERYONE IS WINNING <Taneb> EXCEPT FIZZIE
04:08:52 <HackEgo> 508) <Taneb> So it's like... Rummy mixed with... breakout?
04:09:02 <elliott> but it's too stupid to delete
04:09:13 <ais523> oh, 553 is the one there that actually made me laugh
04:09:20 <elliott> 393 probably isn't that good
04:09:23 <ais523> meh, they're all pretty good
04:09:35 <ais523> I'd be up for deleting 393, or not deleting any
04:09:52 <ais523> bleh, I wish that I could logically conclude from this that zzo38 was a dragon
04:09:55 <zzo38> shachaf: I am real; my D&D character is not really exists.
04:10:00 <HackEgo> 87) <dtsund> For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside.
04:10:04 <zzo38> ais523: And that is not a correct kind of logic.
04:10:08 <shachaf> zzo38: Am I really exists. :-(
04:10:11 <HackEgo> 604) <fungot> CakeProphet: mr president, in the best egyptian judicial traditions has now been put off to friday. but i want my money back'. we know it generally deals with major infrastructure projects which could form part of the emergency package for korea, on christmas eve, in the interests of consumers and the environment of gmos.
04:10:12 <HackEgo> 45) <Deewiant> Reality isn't a part of physics
04:10:12 <ais523> zzo38: I know, that's why I can't
04:10:12 <HackEgo> 715) * oerjan concludes that unsafeCoerce has no effect on strictness
04:10:13 <HackEgo> 36) <lacota> I guess when you're immortal, mapping your fonts isn't necessary
04:10:17 <zzo38> shachaf: Are yo usure?
04:10:45 <shachaf> zzo38: Why do you say are me sure?
04:11:04 <zzo38> shachaf: Just in case you are not sure.
04:11:06 <elliott> 87 isn't really all that funny, 604 is untouchable because fungot
04:11:06 <fungot> elliott: me! i do. " merry? you're poor enough! all i've come to love is the tension, but relationships are about compromise, but not the player should do that too
04:11:25 <ais523> 604 is not good for fungot
04:11:25 <fungot> ais523: all t-rex has ever met and ever will meet! never try to have a theological discussion with god and he was all " i'm busy inventing the future!
04:11:35 <fungot> elliott: and so: " probably not!" well, not all of our actions, and i am, a little!
04:11:38 <HackEgo> *poof* <fungot> CakeProphet: mr president, in the best egyptian judicial traditions has now been put off to friday. but i want my money back'. we know it generally deals with major infrastructure projects which could form part of the emergency package for korea, on christmas eve, in the interests of consumers and the environment of gmos.
04:11:43 <elliott> "never try to have a theological discussion with god and he was all " i'm busy inventing the future!" <-- :D
04:11:54 <ais523> elliott: I suspect that's mostly literal
04:12:15 <elliott> it's literal in two parts, i think
04:12:42 <ais523> elliott: I think it may be three, you can break on "busy" too
04:12:57 <elliott> http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1392 + http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1824
04:14:02 <ais523> it is three parts, neither of those has the "was all" bit
04:14:10 <ais523> middle part might be harder to find
04:14:29 <elliott> unfortunately, "he was all" appears frequently in Dinosaur Comics :)
04:14:53 <shachaf> By the way, did you know that foo = (Foo *)(void *)bar; isn't the the same as foo = (Foo *)bar; in C++?
04:14:56 <elliott> http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1286
04:18:25 <pikhq> shachaf: What's the distinction?
04:18:56 <shachaf> pikhq: Casting can change the value of a pointer.
04:19:10 <pikhq> But not casting to void, I assume.
04:19:26 <shachaf> No, but casting to a superclass.
04:19:35 <pikhq> Unless someone defined operator void*.
04:20:26 <pikhq> It's used so you can do if(foo) on an arbitrary object.
04:21:07 <pikhq> shachaf: Obvious. It overrides the void* cast.
04:21:25 <ais523> whereas if you tried to define casting to boolean, it could be used in arithmetic
04:21:40 <ais523> and void* is just as good as bool for the condition of an if statement
04:21:42 <shachaf> I didn't know you could overload C-style casts.
04:21:55 <elliott> ais523: that lets you define safe booleans in C++, btw
04:21:59 <elliott> that stop you adding them, etc.
04:22:02 <pikhq> I dunno if you can in general, or if void* is a special case.
04:22:04 <ais523> conclusion: C++ is busy using its features working around other of its features
04:22:14 <ais523> elliott: but that don't stop you passing them to memcpy
04:22:18 <kmc> shachaf, one thing i like about the magic qemu chroot is that I can use make -j12 without emulating a 6 core ARM machine
04:22:37 <ais523> void* is not a boolean type…
04:22:39 <kmc> but this got me thinking, does qemu cache the translations of chunks of /usr/bin/gcc between runs? i don't think it does
04:22:43 <pikhq> Yup, it's general.
04:23:10 <zzo38> Can we make up the LLVM+BLISS+WEB combination of programming language? All three have features I like that should belong to a programming language for similar use like C and so on.
04:23:37 <elliott> ais523: well, no, it doesn't
04:23:41 <elliott> ais523: but that's a rarer error :)
04:23:41 <pikhq> So, foo=(Foo*)(void*)bar isn't the same as foo=(Foo*) in two ways.
04:23:46 <elliott> ais523: I didn't mean use void * directly
04:23:49 <elliott> I meant use a class with operator void *
04:23:59 <ais523> that's defining an implicit cast, isn't it?
04:24:05 <ais523> so you could still pass it to memcpy
04:24:31 <pikhq> ais523: Unfortunately for C++, in GNU C pointer arithmetic on void* is defined.
04:25:04 <ais523> pikhq: however, it does give a warning by default on that
04:25:14 <ais523> or possibly only with a standard rather than gnuish --std
04:26:12 <pikhq> Conclusion: C++ is a twisty maze of features, all alike.
04:26:50 <zzo38> LLVM lacks macros and stuff, so adding BLISS style macros and other features from BLISS and WEB would probably make a programming language which it can be written a programs in!
04:26:52 <ais523> nah, the problem with C++ is that most of its features are designed to dodge deficiencies in other of its features
04:27:21 <pikhq> It also has at least two different renditions of most of its features.
04:28:40 <pikhq> Consider std::vector and blocks of memory allocated via new foo[].
04:29:00 <pikhq> Heck, consider new and malloc.
04:29:03 <kmc> those aren't very equivalent
04:29:12 <kmc> new and malloc are closer
04:29:25 <pikhq> kmc: They're similar, and can be used for similar purpose.
04:29:32 <kmc> i mean, I think one of the biggest flaws in C++ is that they tried to incorporate C wholesale, rather than designing a sane contained C FFI
04:29:40 <kmc> that's where much of the duplication comes from
04:29:42 <pikhq> (except, C++ being what it is, you can't realloc those new foo[]s.
04:29:50 <kmc> vector is higher level than new, for that reason among others
04:30:06 <kmc> it makes sense to have new[] (a language feature) and also std::vector (a library implemented using that feature)
04:30:08 <elliott> "one of the biggest flaws of C++" -- C++ has small flaws?
04:30:15 <pikhq> In general, C++ has a high-level way and a low-level way.
04:30:25 <ais523> elliott: sure, if something has a bunch of large flaws, wouldn't you expect it to have minor ones too?
04:30:27 <pikhq> And often has a high-level C++ way, a low-level C++ way, and a low-level C way.
04:30:34 <elliott> ais523: there's nothing small about C++
04:30:35 <kmc> pikhq, I can't complain when the high-level way is a library
04:30:52 <kmc> i mean, isn't that how things should work? a suite of core features, with a standard library that uses them
04:31:02 <kmc> foo<bar<T> > is a minor flaw
04:31:08 <kmc> (and fixed in C++11)
04:31:26 <zzo38> Do you know the BLISS programming language?
04:31:29 <kmc> i think that C++ code written carefully by experts in accordance with all C++ features, good practice, and idiom is actually rather nice
04:31:43 <kmc> but it's too much work
04:32:03 <kmc> and most people you can hire to code C++ don't know nearly enough of it to do that
04:32:19 <pikhq> kmc: new[] requires the same library, believe it or not.
04:32:20 <kmc> the inbetween states where you're using some fancy C++ features but not others are pretty awful
04:32:32 <kmc> do you mean because it can throw std::bad_alloc
04:32:42 <zzo38> Is there such a thing as a GNU BLISS compiler?
04:32:47 <kmc> wait, no, it doesn't, because it returns NULL instead
04:32:49 <elliott> <kmc> i think that C++ code written carefully by experts in accordance with all C++ features, good practice, and idiom is actually rather nice
04:33:03 <kmc> i thought allocations of pointer type return NULL and allocations of other type throw
04:33:04 <kmc> elliott, yes
04:33:10 <kmc> many parts of boost are nice to use
04:33:26 <kmc> the guts are a bit nasty, in part because they accommodate tons of broken/incomplete compilers
04:33:55 <elliott> Have you seen the source code to boost::optional or whatsit?
04:34:32 <kmc> C++ applications code does not look like Boost missing-stdlib code
04:34:33 <ais523> elliott: no, although I get the feeling it would be interesting
04:35:04 <kmc> i think C++ is basically a bad language, but the way in which it's bad is almost the opposite of the way most languages are bad
04:35:08 <kmc> which makes it a fascinating case
04:36:17 <pikhq> void *operator new(size_t size) actually is part of the C++ standard library; it literally doesn't exist in freestanding implementations.
04:36:22 <elliott> C++ is a language I really can't bring myself to dredge up any sympathy for in any capacity other than a curio.
04:36:23 <zzo38> kmc: Then which is better? LLVM?
04:36:32 <elliott> I can even say kind words about Java sometimes.
04:36:33 <pikhq> (that there is such a thing as freestanding C++ is a bit scary)
04:36:50 <kmc> pikhq, that's true
04:36:59 <kmc> in fact you can overload it within your namespace?
04:37:33 <kmc> (but you can also add arguments, which is how memory pools are supposed to work)
04:37:39 <pikhq> And on individual classes, of course.
04:37:45 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 05:37:39
04:38:34 <ais523> you don't have your time in the corner of the screen?
04:38:37 <ais523> or in your IRC client?
04:39:19 <kmc> what i think is particularly funny is that other languages adopted C++'s 'new' keyword, without adopting the design decisions that make it necessary
04:39:40 <ais523> what other languages other than Java?
04:39:56 <ais523> can I blame this on XFCE?
04:39:58 <shachaf> kmc: I think the "delete" keyword is even funnier.
04:40:02 <ais523> pikhq: that's copying Java, though, not C++
04:40:05 <ais523> elliott: oh, OK, you're forgiven
04:40:08 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 05:40:03
04:40:09 <kmc> javascript
04:40:09 <lambdabot> Local time for ais523 is Wed Apr 4 05:39:37 2012
04:40:28 <ais523> no, yours is, this one's updated over ntp
04:40:35 <elliott> no, yours is, I'm infallible
04:40:47 <ais523> I guess ja.net's clock could be wrong, theoretically, that's what I'm syncing with
04:40:57 <pikhq> And C# even manages to copy Java's "Lawl EVERYTHING is a class or an object!" junk.
04:41:12 <kmc> not everything is a class or an object in Java
04:41:18 <kmc> i think Java would be better if it were
04:41:21 <ais523> pikhq: now Java is planning to copy it back from C#, apparently
04:41:28 <kmc> arrays being non-objects is stupid
04:41:35 <kmc> unboxed ints I have some sympathy for, after working with Haskell :D
04:41:45 <kmc> i think they should be hidden deeper though
04:41:56 <kmc> you have to push some scary levers before GHC will show you an unboxed int
04:42:01 <pikhq> Why anyone would want “public class Hello {public static void main(String []args){System.out.println("Hello, world!\n");}}” is beyond me.
04:42:20 <kmc> by which point it's less surprising that they're not first class
04:42:31 <pikhq> Ah, right, yeah, it's got rather annoying non-first-class primitives.
04:42:36 <pikhq> Because... I dunno.
04:42:38 <ais523> pikhq: indeed, they should clearly use an enum
04:43:09 <kmc> i mean recall that Java was originally designed to run on toasters and smart cards in 1995
04:43:29 <kmc> heap allocating every integer might have been a grave performance burden
04:43:39 <pikhq> (of course, they *could* do a much more respectable thing: void main(String[] args){println("Hello, world!");})
04:43:45 <kmc> i think in 1995 you could barely use GHC on a commodity PC
04:44:03 <elliott> <pikhq> And C# even manages to copy Java's "Lawl EVERYTHING is a class or an object!" junk.
04:44:33 <pikhq> elliott: I'm mostly criticising its concept that you don't get functions outside of classes.
04:44:43 <ais523> pikhq: I actually like the way you can give arbitrary classes a main, it's great for testing
04:44:53 <kmc> Java's had a strange path, as far as what it was designed for vs. what it got used for
04:45:03 <ais523> and I can see a plausible argument to be made that you shouldn't be allowed to have a function outside a namespace
04:45:13 <ais523> however, conflating namespaces and classes is a bit weird
04:45:17 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know: Haskell can be a surprisingly productive language (as I discovered writing my recursive-line-count program). But dealing with the perils of concurrency, IO, and exceptions kills it.
04:45:30 <kmc> WOW RECURSIVE LINE COUNT
04:45:32 <kmc> YOU ARE A HASKELL EXPERT
04:45:39 <pikhq> ais523: Why not have each file implicitly be a namespace?
04:45:49 <pikhq> This *also* gets rid of the annoying filename-class name redundancy.
04:45:58 <ais523> pikhq: that's a valid viewpoint, I think I can agree with it
04:46:09 <ais523> the main disadvantage is that you can't then put an entire Java program in one file, unless it has just one class
04:46:19 <kmc> Java was designed for toasters and smart TV, then a failed attempt at becoming Flash, then smart cards, then enterprise BankingSoftwareMiddlewareFactories
04:46:22 <ais523> unless you have different syntax for private and public classes
04:46:24 <elliott> kmc: Apparently he agrees that those things are nicer in Haskell than other languages.
04:46:29 <shachaf> Why is #include <unistd.h> not causing pid_t to be defined when compiling with gcc -std=c99?
04:46:29 <elliott> I'm not sure what kind of cognitive dissonance is going on.
04:46:29 <kmc> oh and dumbphones
04:46:36 <pikhq> What, like Java people stick multiple classes in a file? :)
04:46:39 <shachaf> It works fine without that.
04:46:49 <ais523> shachaf: does pid_t exist in c99? if not, you'll need a feature test macro
04:47:02 <kmc> and... jewelry sold by Dallas Semi
04:47:02 <zzo38> elliott: Those things are some of the things I wanted to improve in a new programming language, similar to Haskell but it doesn't do exceptions in the way of Haskell, and other differences too
04:47:04 <ais523> oh, not even that, it's because pid_t is actually in sys/types.h
04:47:16 <ais523> note that std=c99 actually turns /off/ posix features
04:47:19 <elliott> kmc: Why do you /ignore zzo38?
04:47:26 <kmc> i don't /ignore
04:47:28 <elliott> shachaf: zzo38's great, right?
04:47:28 <ais523> unless you use an appropriate #define in order to turn them back on
04:47:43 <kmc> sometimes zzo38 says things and I do not have a response
04:47:47 <kmc> the same happens for everyone
04:48:02 <elliott> Oh, I didn't expect you to respond.
04:48:08 <elliott> I just wanted to check you were receiving the insights, you know?
04:48:11 <pikhq> And you need the appropriate #define to comply with POSIX anyways.
04:48:19 <kmc> thanks for looking out for a brother
04:48:37 <ais523> pikhq: "#define _POSIX_SOURCE 1" is the old standard, isn't it? although there are newer ones that do the same thing
04:48:48 <elliott> it's #define _POSIX_VERSION SOMETHINGNOBODYCANREMEMBER or something
04:48:53 <kmc> Haskell is "surprisingly productive" because the prior assumption is that you need 20 PhDs to do anything
04:49:01 <kmc> so the fact that you only need, like, half a master's degree is surprising
04:49:12 <kmc> #define POSIX_ME_HARDER
04:49:14 -!- asiekierka has joined.
04:49:15 <shachaf> kmc: Did you have February's exciting psychedelic adventure yet?
04:49:23 <pikhq> #define _POSIX_C_SOURCE 200809L
04:49:44 <kmc> shachaf, my friends failed to obtain the material components :/
04:49:49 <kmc> slash I failed to ask them to
04:50:04 <pikhq> #define _XOPEN_SOURCE 700 if you want XSI extensions.
04:50:08 <pikhq> (decent chance you do)
04:50:09 <kmc> #define POSIX_ME_HARDER
04:50:12 <shachaf> Isn't the point to transcend the material world or something?
04:50:49 <kmc> i think if you're not a dumbass, psychedelic drugs will make you *more* of a philosophical materialist
04:50:58 <pikhq> kmc: Without these macros it is utterly nontrivial to make a system that complies with ISO C *and* POSIX simultaneously.
04:51:06 <kmc> by showing how all those perceptions and emotions you hold dear can be manipulated by a tiny amount of a small chemical
04:51:10 <zzo38> I don't even have /IGNORE on my IRC; it has /F which is used for various filters but I almost never use that command anyways (when I do use, it is usually for purpose of notification or logging)
04:51:27 <pikhq> (as POSIX functions are not reserved in ISO C)
04:51:46 <elliott> What if you *are* a dumbass? Tough questions.
04:51:52 <kmc> but it also makes the Hard Problem seem less phantasmal
04:51:57 <kmc> so can encourage dualism as well
04:53:08 <zzo38> kmc: I read somewhere that they make a difference between "problem" and "mystery" so I use instead the "Hard Mystery" which is a slightly different version of the "Hard Problem" of consciousness
04:53:42 <kmc> who makes this difference?
04:54:07 <zzo38> kmc: I did; aren't you paying attention?
04:54:32 <kmc> it is my shameful secret
04:54:47 <elliott> you'll never get to zzo39 at this rate
04:55:31 <shachaf> zzo38: Are you in 38th grade?
04:55:48 <zzo38> shachaf: No; I am not in school at this time.
04:56:01 <zzo38> (And as far as I know they do not have that many grades in school anyways)
04:56:05 <elliott> Oh no, it's getting light out side.
04:56:08 <elliott> Help!! Help!! Help!! Help!! Help!! Help!! Help!! Help!! Help!! Help!!
04:56:14 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 05:56:08
04:56:14 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 05:56:08
04:56:15 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 05:56:08
04:56:19 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 05:56:08
04:56:28 <zzo38> elliott: Then close the window.
04:57:18 <pikhq> elliott: How, exactly, do you school with your sleep schedule?
04:57:20 <zzo38> Then close the shutter too
04:57:35 <elliott> pikhq: As shachaf kindly points out, I *am* school.
04:57:41 <elliott> zzo38: I don't have one of those. I'm not like you rich Canadians. :(
04:57:43 <pikhq> No, but seriously.
04:57:53 <shachaf> <elliott> Stop asking boring questions.
04:58:46 <elliott> pikhq: I guess you just don't understand the Hard Mystery of Sleep.
04:59:12 <pikhq> There's many things I don't understand.
04:59:17 * kmc hugs git rebase -i --autosquash
04:59:23 <ais523> meh, how much PSE do you have in your timetable? that's a good time to sleep
04:59:51 <ais523> kmc: heh, in darcs you can just commit into patches that aren't the most recent, comes to the same thing
05:00:14 <kmc> yeah git's way is kind of ad-hoc
05:00:37 <elliott> git is Unix (that's a bad thing)
05:01:22 <kmc> better than C, better than B, better than A, it's @
05:01:52 <elliott> is the implication that I "cba" to write @?
05:02:00 <elliott> ais523: no, darcs is Miranda
05:02:28 <ais523> what's Miranda like? it used to be mentioned in the same breath as Haskell a lot, but people stopped doing that more recently
05:02:38 <kmc> it's basically a predecessor to Haskell
05:02:58 <elliott> it's like haskell but weird
05:03:11 <elliott> no algebraic data types afaik
05:03:15 <elliott> also didn't it have unlifted tuples
05:03:17 <kmc> type variables are like * and ** and ***
05:03:31 <kmc> i think it's basically not used anymore
05:03:36 <kmc> it had one, commercial, implementation
05:03:42 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
05:03:45 <elliott> Miranda and Clean are basically uncanny valley to me
05:03:50 <elliott> they're like Haskell but fucked up
05:03:54 <kmc> i'm amazed someone tried to sell bad haskell
05:04:14 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
05:04:24 <shachaf> That would be the amazing bit.
05:04:25 <kmc> hey what ever happened to iPwn Studios
05:04:26 <elliott> but Miranda is more, relic of an ancient civilisation
05:04:30 <elliott> Clean is like, the aliens are fucking with us
05:04:36 <kmc> are they still trying to prove the Riemann Hypothesis as part of making an iPhone game
05:04:52 <shachaf> Cale occasionally mentions that he's still working on it.
05:04:52 <elliott> kmc: Cale mentioned them today!
05:04:56 <kmc> the bit of R code I've read looks like uncanny valley for Python
05:04:58 <elliott> Well, indirectly, saying that he works with Haskell making games.
05:05:12 -!- calamari has joined.
05:05:13 <kmc> and by "making games" he means not making games
05:05:13 <elliott> I think the only employee is Cale. His job is to convince everyone else they're making a game.
05:05:28 <elliott> That makes people not want to start a Haskell game company, since one already exists.
05:05:30 <kmc> the game is lazily evaluated
05:05:33 <elliott> It's actually a front organisation for Microsoft.
05:05:39 <elliott> They're trying to make Haskell die so F# can take over.
05:05:40 <kmc> it will be coded as people play
05:05:43 <kmc> and therefore was never released
05:05:47 <kmc> yeah Microsoft hates Haskell
05:05:48 <elliott> Dude, my conspiracy theory is 10x better.
05:05:58 <elliott> kmc: Hey, F# has Microsoft corporate support!
05:06:06 <elliott> They're arbitrarily evil, I hear.
05:06:12 <elliott> Who cares about those research lackeys?
05:06:20 <kmc> i saw Microsoft kick a puppy just because they could
05:06:26 <kmc> i'm glad Apple is standing up to them
05:07:03 <elliott> http://ipwnstudios.com/blog The uniform capitalisation of these entries suggests to me that it was decided, as company policy, to write all content on their website exclusively in lowercase.
05:07:21 <shachaf> elliott: Reasonable policy.
05:07:33 <elliott> (Uniform capitalisation despite diverse authorship, that is.)
05:07:35 <shachaf> However, some capital letters exist.
05:09:23 -!- Jafet has joined.
05:10:50 <lambdabot> Local time for kmc is Wed Apr 4 01:10:23
05:11:01 <elliott> PH is one of you now I hate you all
05:13:30 <elliott> http://blog.regehr.org/archives/696
05:15:27 <elliott> assholes i'll go to sleep :(
05:15:30 <shachaf> Seeing the contents of /proc/PID/maps printed in my terminal immediately makes me thinks my program crashed.
05:15:48 <zzo38> Perhaps there was those thing other than Haskell before, and now they made Haskell; but now I have other ideas too make something like Haskell but is many differences such as macros, non-layout, instance overriding and local instances, different names for many things, and other differences.
05:16:22 <HackEgo> 00100000-00102000 r-xp 00000000 00:00 0 \ 00400000-0040c000 r-xp 00000000 00:09 842385 /bin/cat \ 0060c000-0060d000 rw-p 0000c000 00:09 842385 /bin/cat \ 0060d000-0062e000 rwxp 00000000 00:00 0 [heap] \ 40000000-4001e000 r-xp 00000000 00:0f 836813 /lib64/ld-2.11.3.so \ 4001e000-40022000 rw-p 00000000
05:16:33 * pikhq_ injects elliott with a pound of pure Meat
05:17:14 <zzo38> I don't like how some of the classes in Haskell are defined such as the Monad and Applicative class. Monad should have Functor superclass and then have return and join as its only methods
05:19:16 <zzo38> (And the way it is now, join is not even a class method at all.)
05:19:32 <shachaf> elliott: Why did you crash my IRC cliet. :-(
05:20:19 <zzo38> And the class method of Applicative should be pure and liftPair
05:20:41 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
05:21:17 <zzo38> Maybe you disagree with these things but these are my opinion.
05:22:54 <zzo38> In some categories all monads are applicative and in some categories that isn't, so Applicative should not be a superclass of Monad but instead be something that allows it to give default instance anyways in case of categories where that is possible
05:44:50 <kmc> HackEgo, y u no ASLR
05:45:39 <kmc> `sort <(cat /proc/self/maps) <(cat /proc/self/maps) | uniq -d
05:45:43 <HackEgo> sort: open failed: <(cat /proc/self/maps) <(cat /proc/self/maps) | uniq -d: No such file or directory
05:47:23 <shachaf> `run sort <(cat /proc/self/maps) <(cat /proc/self/maps) | uniq -d
05:47:51 <shachaf> ` is more like #! than a shell.
05:47:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
05:48:07 <kmc> `cat /proc/self/maps
05:48:10 <HackEgo> 00100000-00102000 r-xp 00000000 00:00 0 \ 00400000-0040c000 r-xp 00000000 00:09 842385 /bin/cat \ 0060c000-0060d000 rw-p 0000c000 00:09 842385 /bin/cat \ 0060d000-0062e000 rwxp 00000000 00:00 0 [heap] \ 40000000-4001e000 r-xp 00000000 00:0f 836813 /lib64/ld-2.11.3.so \ 4001e000-40022000 rw-p 00000000
05:48:10 <kmc> `cat /proc/self/maps
05:48:13 <HackEgo> 00100000-00102000 r-xp 00000000 00:00 0 \ 00400000-0040c000 r-xp 00000000 00:09 842385 /bin/cat \ 0060c000-0060d000 rw-p 0000c000 00:09 842385 /bin/cat \ 0060d000-0062e000 rwxp 00000000 00:00 0 [heap] \ 40000000-4001e000 r-xp 00000000 00:0f 836813 /lib64/ld-2.11.3.so \ 4001e000-40022000 rw-p 00000000
05:48:35 <kmc> `run (cat /proc/self/maps; cat /proc/self/maps) | sort | uniq -d
05:48:38 <HackEgo> 00100000-00102000 r-xp 00000000 00:00 0 \ 00400000-0040c000 r-xp 00000000 00:09 842385 /bin/cat \ 0060c000-0060d000 rw-p 0000c000 00:09 842385 /bin/cat \ 0060d000-0062e000 rwxp 00000000 00:00 0 [heap] \ 40000000-4001e000 r-xp 00000000 00:0f 836813 /lib64/ld-2.11.3.so \ 4001e000-40022000 rw-p 00000000
06:06:21 <zzo38> I think some people might have said that HPDF is too much monadic; well, dvi-processing doesn't do that so maybe they prefer that one
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06:57:34 <kmc> RAII is a weird term
06:57:43 <kmc> it should be RRID
06:58:17 <kmc> resource release is destruction
06:58:28 <kmc> that's more the point of it, i think
06:58:55 <kmc> (i don't know if "destruction" is the antonym of "initialization")
06:59:16 <kmc> i guess finalization is the antonym of initialization, but probably not in C++
07:01:16 <shachaf> There aren't all that many languages that actually have C++-style destructors, are there?
07:01:32 <kmc> i don't know of others; maybe D
07:02:26 <kmc> C++ has a near-monopoly on high-level OOP with explicit resource management
07:02:28 <shachaf> Well, D is still garbage-collected...
07:02:33 <kmc> one of many things that makes it a unique language
07:02:50 <kmc> i thought maybe D has non-garbage-collected values
07:02:59 <kmc> i was reading about substructural type systems in ATaPL
07:03:05 <kmc> you can do some cool things
07:03:55 <kmc> they introduce a system where each type is annotated as either "unrestricted" or "linear"
07:04:11 <kmc> objects of linear type are used exactly one on each control flow path, so can be deallocated immediately after use
07:04:20 <ais523> the GC is meant to be optional in D
07:04:28 <ais523> although the standard library doesn't work properly with it turned off atm
07:04:32 <kmc> then they introduce a third mode, "reference-counted"
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07:06:09 <pikhq_> Also, isn't it conservative GC'd, i.e. crap?
07:06:28 <zzo38> Do you know where they have a death penalty for speaking English?
07:06:57 <kmc> with functions «increment :: refcounted T -> linear (refcounted T, refcounted T)» and «decrement :: (linear T -> ()) -> refcounted T -> ()»
07:07:40 <zzo38> shachaf: I mean more specifically
07:07:46 <kmc> the intended operational semantics is that of ordinary refcounting
07:07:46 <pikhq_> Well. Yeah. Quebec is still part of Canada, non?
07:07:56 <kmc> but the types make sure you've refcounted properly
07:08:11 <kmc> the function (linear T -> ()) could be considered a destructor
07:09:18 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes, in Quebec. It is part of Canada; but it is not the entirety of Canada. This law makes air traffic control difficult in Quebec, because air traffic control is supposed to be English by international law; so they do air traffic control in French there and that makes flights difficult
07:10:09 <kmc> quebec has a death penalty for speaking english?
07:10:09 <pikhq_> Air traffic control is done in English in *France* for goodness sake.
07:10:18 <pikhq_> kmc: Probably not actually.
07:10:30 <pikhq_> They don't have a death penalty in general, so how could they have one in specific?
07:11:17 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes, in France, and everywhere in the world other than Quebec, air traffic control is English by international law.
07:22:14 <olsner> kmc: you get sentenced to death by plane crash
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07:23:01 <olsner> either that or by accidentally a plane
07:24:51 <kmc> zzo38, do you have a link about this claim?
07:24:53 <kmc> http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/publications/tp14371-com-annexa-467.htm
07:25:26 <kmc> this indicates that both english and french are used in quebec
07:25:53 <kmc> that's still bad though, because you can't understand what the other plane is saying ;P
07:26:27 <kmc> http://books.google.com/books/about/The_language_of_the_skies.html?id=i-IhCl04_7kC
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07:28:15 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_traffic_control#Language 'Pursuant to requirements of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), ATC operations are conducted either in the English language or the language used by the station on the ground.[2] In practice, the native language for a region is normally used, however the English language must be used upon request.[2]'
07:28:52 <kmc> also this doesn't apply to military aircraft
07:29:20 <kmc> there was an amusing story about the korean war, when the USSR secretly sent planes and pilots to help the communist side
07:29:39 <kmc> to keep it secret, they gave the pilots Russian-Korean phrasebooks for basic flying-related terms
07:30:10 <kmc> and so you could listen on the radio and hear pilots talking in bad russian-accented korean
07:30:29 <kmc> which would quickly devolve to russian curse words when they got in a dogfight or the plane malfunctioned
07:32:24 <zzo38> kmc: I do not have a link; I was told by air traffic controllers, I was not told this by the computer. Perhaps you can look it up in Wikipedia, though.
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08:14:01 <monqy> nsqx was here the whole time???
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08:19:10 <Sgeo> He is already here
08:19:57 <monqy> he's not here at all
08:23:48 <oerjan> waiting in silent despair
08:40:18 <kmc> huh i just learned what happens when you press ^D on a non-blank line in a cooked mode unix terminal
08:40:28 <kmc> why did i never try this before
08:41:17 <kmc> and ^D^D lets you end input without a trailing \n
08:43:19 <kmc> also hexdump waits for two EOFs if the input is a tty?
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08:52:17 <shachaf> kmc: Wait, ^D works on non-blank lines?
08:52:23 <shachaf> Is this some new innovation?
08:52:41 <shachaf> I could've sworn that this thing which is working didn't use to work.
08:52:51 <shachaf> Which is why I always type a newline before ^D.
08:55:58 <kmc> ^D on a non-blank line sends the line to the process, without a \n
08:56:10 <kmc> it then lets you input more text on the same line, but you can't backspace over what was already sent
08:56:56 <shachaf> And ^D when there's no input in the buffer sends EOF.
09:07:17 * kmc read nelhage's 3-part series on termios
09:15:12 <ais523> kmc: quite a lot of programs mistakenly wait for two EOFs
09:15:24 <ais523> but if the input isn't a tty, you can't tell, because if it sends EOF at all it's going to always send EOF
09:15:56 <kmc> ah yeah, that's what's happening
09:16:00 <kmc> confirmed with cat | strace hexdump
09:16:17 <ais523> so the bug tends not to be caught
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09:18:23 <shachaf> Why do programs wait for two EOFs?
09:27:08 <oerjan> i recall my super-short unlambda cat did that :P
09:27:47 <kmc> someone should write a browser extension which replaces every occurrence of the word "awesome" with a synonym
09:27:47 <oerjan> or something like that anyhow. it may have read even more EOFs.
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10:05:05 <salomon> i do feel every time pain and the buzzing of prana, chi and enerchy
10:05:17 <salomon> its a pain body which i have
10:05:29 <salomon> i am trying everytime to accept it and it works sometimes fine
10:05:46 <salomon> since now i had three dark pushes
10:05:47 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
10:06:23 <oerjan> don't worry, you're certainly not the first :)
10:07:02 <salomon> is esoterica a programming tool like java?
10:07:26 <oerjan> no, it's a general term for "weird" programming languages
10:07:49 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
10:09:25 <itidus21> salomon: basically by esoterica.. they mean.. "esoteric stuff"
10:12:18 <itidus21> no umm.. this room is only about programming tools like java.. thats the simple way to say it
10:13:08 <oerjan> except java is nowhere near weird enough for us :)
10:16:16 <oerjan> rottytooth posted Entropy to proggit
10:16:45 <itidus21> I think theres a certain sense of asceticism in esoteric programming languages
10:18:35 <oerjan> itidus21: well yes. the best esolangs are based around a single core idea, and don't add more than necessary beyond that. ok, except funge-98 which is good because it does the exact opposite.
10:20:05 <oerjan> most are also very brief with single-char commands, although there are some that do the opposite of that too (Ork)
10:20:08 <itidus21> i like how esolangs eschew tokens > 1 character
10:22:00 <oerjan> Glass is somewhere in between, in that it _supports_ multichar variables but they aren't used much in what i've seen.
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10:24:00 <oerjan> WAT SEEMS TO BE THE PROBLEM
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10:29:33 <quintopia> apparently the server that i was on was the problem
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10:32:17 <itidus21> but even after using a pc for decades, the cpu hides well
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10:40:32 <kmc> cpus are fiendishly complex
10:40:53 <kmc> it seems most programmers today don't even learn an instruction set architecture, let alone the details of how it's implemented
10:41:10 <kmc> and i can be a crotchety old elitist and complain about this
10:41:14 <kmc> but i think it's actually a good thing
10:41:25 <kmc> more people are programming, and the abstractions they use are working
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15:37:01 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 16:36:55
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15:41:56 <elliott> 10:04:46: <salomon> i have a big problem
15:41:56 <elliott> 10:05:05: <salomon> i do feel every time pain and the buzzing of prana, chi and enerchy
15:41:56 <elliott> 10:05:17: <salomon> its a pain body which i have
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15:53:05 -!- RocketJSquirrel has set topic: For Sale: Infinite Tape, Never Used | If you are feeling every time pain and the buzzing of prana, chi and enerchy, your matrix of solidity may not be idempotent. Please bring it to fixed point. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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16:12:16 <elliott> elliott@solidity:~$ sudo awk '{ hits[$1]++ } END { for (ip in hits) print hits[ip], ip }' /var/log/nginx/access.log | sort -nr | less | head -n 10
16:12:30 <elliott> If it's a DOS, it's a distributed one :P
16:12:33 <elliott> And the log file isn't growing at any kind of alarming rate... maybe someone's downloading the dump over and over?
16:12:54 <elliott> Might be because of proggit
16:13:18 <elliott> TESTAMENT TO MY SKILLZ THAT THE SITE IS STILL GOING STRONG EH EH
16:13:45 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/rrolt/entropy_a_programming_language_that_forces_you_to/
16:14:13 <elliott> I feel compelled to point out that I think Entropy is pretty neato.
16:14:50 <elliott> Actually I kinda doubt proggit would give us this kind of traffic >_>
16:15:10 <Sgeo> elliott, check referers?
16:15:43 <elliott> 207.238.205.226 - - [04/Apr/2012:16:14:18 +0000] "GET /wiki/Brainfuck HTTP/1.1" 200 14615 "http://intjforum.com/showthread.php?p=2421832" "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:11.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/11.0"
16:15:53 <elliott> Maaaaan, log file! Before today I didn't know there was such a thing as intjforum.com.
16:16:38 <elliott> elliott@solidity:~$ sudo awk '{ hits[$11]++ } END { for (ref in hits) print hits[ref], ref }' /var/log/nginx/access.log | sort -nr | head -n 10
16:16:38 <elliott> 31658 "http://esolangs.org/wiki/Entropy"
16:16:38 <elliott> 817 "http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page"
16:16:40 <elliott> 576 "http://esolangs.org/wiki/Language_list"
16:16:42 <elliott> 528 "http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/"
16:16:44 <elliott> 506 "http://www.reddit.com/r/programming"
16:16:46 <elliott> 475 "http://esolangs.org/wiki/Hello_world_program_in_esoteric_languages"
16:16:48 <elliott> 293 "http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck"
16:16:50 <elliott> 181 "http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Language_list&action=edit§ion=1"
16:16:54 <elliott> (The reason the first count is so high is because everyone's coming to the site with a clean cache)
16:16:59 <elliott> (And loading all the referenced resources.)
16:17:26 <elliott> Oh well! The site is going sufficiently fast that I don't care.
16:17:40 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: (Is it loading fast enough where you are with a bigger ping?)
16:17:45 <Sgeo> What's referer - ?
16:19:02 <elliott> Can I just say that I really love how the W3C has made a spelling error into a word.
16:19:06 <elliott> That's power, right there.
16:19:11 <Sgeo> o.O why wouldn't that show up as nothing?
16:19:17 <Sgeo> There are 965 nothings
16:19:36 <elliott> Sgeo: Those 965 nothings are probably when there was another space earlier on or something...
16:19:50 <elliott> I don't know why that would happen, but maybe if something sent "GET /wiki/Foo bar HTTP/1.1" t hat would happen.
16:20:01 <Sgeo> > 528+506+5912+965
16:25:09 <elliott> Apparently intjforum.com has people who are not INTJs.
16:25:12 <elliott> I guess forum.com was taken?
16:27:32 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to PinkieP.
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16:29:02 <elliott> And nothing of value was lost.
16:30:46 <elliott> I was sure RocketJSquirrel was going to /nick Friendship there.
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16:32:46 <elliott> I'm pretty sure that was a pathetic attempt to find a variation on it that wasn't registered.
16:33:16 <elliott> He now owns Pinkie`Pie`, and all the others are owned.
16:33:22 <elliott> Hi oerjan can I replace your em dashes
16:33:25 <elliott> I'm trying to be more British
16:33:44 <oerjan> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
16:33:54 <elliott> oerjan: But spaced en dashes!
16:34:25 * oerjan didn't really know there was a cross-pond difference there
16:34:29 <elliott> Technically it should be an en dash surrounded by hair spaces, but *sigh* Unicode hath forsaken us.
16:34:44 <elliott> (By which I mean "provided everything we need, but it's way too much of a pain to actually use it" :P)
16:34:56 <elliott> oerjan: Well, you know. Em dashes are so loud and Victorian.
16:35:22 * oerjan didn't know there was such a time difference, either
16:35:37 <elliott> oerjan: Well, no, technically what's Victorian is double or triple em dashes :P
16:35:51 <elliott> It's like ". . ." for ellipses. They rather overdid everything in those days.
16:36:07 <elliott> Maybe we should use ― this!
16:36:47 <elliott> DYK the Unicode name of the underscore is LOW LINE?
16:38:23 <oerjan> using U+23E8 triggers a police search, i assume
16:39:18 <elliott> Yes, the fearsome DECIMAL EXPONENT SYMBOL ⏨
16:39:27 <elliott> oerjan: DYK we're on proggit?
16:40:09 <oerjan> elliott: yes, i mentioned it in the logs (possibly you did too, i didn't read the logs myself)
16:40:26 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: OK, time to get those as the new adopted names in the next Unicode revision.
16:40:33 <elliott> oerjan: Oh, that might be where I saw it. Or was it ais?
16:41:01 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Yes, renaming ⏨ to DECIMAL EXPONENT SYMBOL would be hilarious.
16:42:29 <oerjan> BISEXUALITY actually fits the symbol rather well, me thinks.
16:44:24 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/rrolt/entropy_a_programming_language_that_forces_you_to/c48bz58?context=2 :P
16:45:09 <elliott> Is it pronounced by saying "Gregor", yelling "BISEXUALITY" at the top of your lungs, and then saying "Richard"?
16:45:32 <elliott> oerjan: The gayness one isn't bad either, since it's very much a non-straight symbol :P
16:45:33 <oerjan> RocketJSquirrel: Prince thinks so.
16:45:55 <elliott> Whoa, I just had a real Keanu Reeves thought.
16:46:03 <elliott> What character set are the Unicode character names in?
16:46:22 <elliott> How come they never use lowercase? Isn't that antithetical to the entire "universal character set" thing?
16:47:32 <elliott> I was gonna guess EBCDIC :P
16:48:40 * oerjan learns baud comes from baudot
16:49:48 <oerjan> presumably the person, not the charset
16:50:51 <oerjan> another idea: the names might be restricted to the _intersection_ of all known computer character sets :P
16:51:33 <elliott> I suspect it's just A-Z plus space.
16:51:39 <elliott> I've never seen anything but that in a character name.
16:51:54 <elliott> Presumably they figure that any character set which can represent English text at all can manage that.
16:56:10 * oerjan sees in the logs elliott lives up to the wiki policy of no privacy
16:56:48 <RocketJSquirrel> If you want privacy so desperately, you're PROBABLY a terrorist.
16:57:23 <oerjan> oh it's not _my_ privacy. well i didn't check if i was in it.
16:58:14 <oerjan> admittedly Entropy is probably not the most incriminating page.
16:59:38 -!- tswett_ has changed nick to tswett.
17:00:03 <elliott> The privacy I'll try to offer is no disclosure of realnames/emails.
17:00:17 <elliott> Web server logs, those are fair game.
17:00:34 <elliott> (I've already violated the realname/email thing by accident anyway >_>)
17:01:48 <elliott> BTW, I've decided to install the Cite and hopefully Math extensions once MediaWiki 1.19 is out.
17:02:03 <elliott> I'm going to play around to see if I can get Math working with just MathJax, because I don't want to bother with texvc.
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17:03:23 <elliott> oerjan: Have I mentioned that Timwi has more Stack Overflow reputation than me? :(
17:04:58 <oerjan> you don't have more than that already?
17:06:04 <oerjan> isn't that like 9 days of max reputation
17:07:43 <shachaf> oerjan: But elliott isn't Max.
17:07:49 <elliott> oerjan: I mean, that's the difference.
17:08:20 * elliott went over that score in 7 days.
17:08:33 <elliott> I've been TOTALLY LAGGING BEHIND lately though.
17:09:50 <elliott> Oh! hammar passed cmccann.
17:10:00 <shachaf> How's that compare to my 14,623,4127043605,557537,545454,43,3,d,43hi,257302monqy,j847402646 karm?
17:10:30 <shachaf> elliott: That's not a nice thing to do, you know.
17:10:35 <elliott> shachaf: You should totally drop that and @ignore - elliott.
17:10:40 <elliott> Wait, it wasn't ignoring me?
17:10:56 <elliott> * *** Message to #esoteric throttled due to flooding
17:11:26 <elliott> ENJOY YOUR MEANINGLESS INTERNET POINTS
17:11:58 <elliott> Good GOD how has that guy's answer got 92 points, is it because he used headings? I don't use headings in my answers.
17:12:04 <oerjan> <elliott> Oh! hammar passed cmccann. <-- * waves the Trondheim flag
17:12:18 <elliott> oerjan: God bless America.
17:12:27 <shachaf> elliott: Are you a subscriber to HWN?
17:12:47 <elliott> shachaf: I read it when it comes out by going from /r/haskell.
17:12:54 <elliott> oerjan: dons is still the top though.
17:13:03 <elliott> oerjan: By quite a margin.
17:13:14 <elliott> I'm pretty sure he just spent a year doing nothing but answering SO questions about Haskell or something.
17:14:03 <elliott> Anyway, I don't answer SO questions. I *am* SO questions.
17:14:23 <oerjan> i read it when it comes out by going either r/haskell or haskell-cafe, sometimes cursing when they forget to include a link to the web version in the latter.
17:14:41 <elliott> HWN is pretty crap, mind you.
17:14:46 <elliott> I just read it for the quotes.
17:15:00 <oerjan> *+swat shachaf -----###
17:15:17 <shachaf> Just for the quotes by me, right?
17:15:20 <lambdabot> shachaf says: In order to get the last element of a list, you have to traverse the whole list. This can be an expensive, inefficient, unlazy operation, so you should develop a distaste for it like
17:15:32 <shachaf> What? That's a terrible quote.
17:15:42 <elliott> If you do, I'll @remember it again.
17:15:55 <lambdabot> shachaf says: Sometimes things are complicated because the domain is complicated. Other times things are complicated because edwardk.
17:15:58 <lambdabot> shachaf says: Finally an opportunity to use my numerous PhDs in monadology! Anyone need any I/O done in useless academic languages? Eh? Eh?
17:16:04 <lambdabot> shachaf says: isTrue :: Bool -> Bool; isTrue = unsafeCoerce
17:16:19 <shachaf> Why can't I have good quotes?
17:16:22 <lambdabot> ehird says: 2009: The Year of the Combinatorial Explosion of Haskell Web Frameworks. Also, the Linux Desktop.
17:16:25 <lambdabot> elliott says: i'm here to prove theorems and compile code and I'm all out of code
17:16:29 <lambdabot> elliott says: Top universities now employ people to watch infomercials all day to find the latest mysteries.
17:16:31 <lambdabot> elliott says: i'm here to prove theorems and compile code and I'm all out of code
17:16:32 <lambdabot> elliott says: <edwardk> elliott: now its almost exactly like one of my packages ;) <elliott> edwardk: no, i'm writing documentation
17:16:45 <lambdabot> elliott says: o'reilly publishes attoparsec tutorial: exactly the same as their parsec tutorial, but 10^-18th the size
17:17:00 <lambdabot> elliott says: I have weird mental spheres that I divide all my coding into and that determine editor and the like
17:17:06 <lambdabot> elliott says: ... [a] is more of a control structure than a data structure.
17:17:09 <lambdabot> elliott says: "with a lot of unicode" is like agda's @faq. "yes, agda can do that with a lot of unicode!"
17:17:12 <lambdabot> elliott says: Explicit recursion should generally be avoided. Also, general recursion should be explicitly avoided!
17:17:25 <elliott> i think that one is the closest i've gotten to a mcbrideism
17:17:35 <elliott> i think that one is the closest i've gotten to a mcbrideism
17:17:37 <shachaf> Wow, that elliott person sure says a lot of things.
17:17:38 <lambdabot> elliott says: i'm here to prove theorems and compile code and I'm all out of code
17:17:39 <lambdabot> elliott says: a typeclass is nothing without semantics
17:17:41 <lambdabot> elliott says: Explicit recursion should generally be avoided. Also, general recursion should be explicitly avoided!
17:17:42 <lambdabot> elliott says: <Cale> Array is immutable boxed <Cale> UArray is immutable unboxed <Cale> IOArray is mutable boxed <elliott> IOUArray is an array of debts.
17:17:50 <lambdabot> shachaf says: In order to get the last element of a list, you have to traverse the whole list. This can be an expensive, inefficient, unlazy operation, so you should develop a distaste for it like
17:17:52 <lambdabot> shachaf says: Real programming languages have a hype system instead of a type system.
17:18:03 <elliott> You reused that joke on @!
17:18:06 <shachaf> Oh, was I talking about @ in #haskell?
17:18:07 <lambdabot> elliott says: |\/|/-\|-|-|=|\||} is my preferred mappend operator
17:18:13 <lambdabot> elliott says: i'm here to prove theorems and compile code and I'm all out of code
17:18:14 <lambdabot> elliott says: a typeclass is nothing without semantics
17:18:15 <lambdabot> elliott says: Explicit recursion should generally be avoided. Also, general recursion should be explicitly avoided!
17:18:16 <lambdabot> elliott says: o'reilly publishes attoparsec tutorial: exactly the same as their parsec tutorial, but 10^-18th the size
17:18:17 <lambdabot> elliott says: "with a lot of unicode" is like agda's @faq. "yes, agda can do that with a lot of unicode!"
17:18:18 <lambdabot> elliott says: o'reilly publishes attoparsec tutorial: exactly the same as their parsec tutorial, but 10^-18th the size
17:18:19 <lambdabot> elliott says: a typeclass is nothing without semantics
17:18:20 <lambdabot> elliott says: "with a lot of unicode" is like agda's @faq. "yes, agda can do that with a lot of unicode!"
17:18:21 <lambdabot> elliott says: Only two things in the universe are certain: Death, and two of the libraries you've decided to use taking different types of ByteString.
17:18:22 <shachaf> elliott: The part that makes it fair is that @ doesn't exist.
17:18:26 <lambdabot> shachaf says: isTrue :: Bool -> Bool; isTrue = unsafeCoerce
17:18:28 <lambdabot> shachaf says: Sometimes things are complicated because the domain is complicated. Other times things are complicated because edwardk.
17:18:30 <lambdabot> shachaf says: Sometimes things are complicated because the domain is complicated. Other times things are complicated because edwardk.
17:18:32 <lambdabot> shachaf says: getLine :: IO String contains a String in the same way that /bin/ls contains a list of files
17:18:38 <lambdabot> elliott says: race condition waiting to happen
17:18:38 <lambdabot> shachaf says: We used to have a big collection of them but most of them got wiped in the Great Lambdabot Wipe of Every Few Months.
17:18:47 <lambdabot> shachaf says: boost::lambda: The ultimate error message.
17:18:49 <lambdabot> elliott says: "with a lot of unicode" is like agda's @faq. "yes, agda can do that with a lot of unicode!"
17:18:51 <lambdabot> elliott says: <Cale> Array is immutable boxed <Cale> UArray is immutable unboxed <Cale> IOArray is mutable boxed <elliott> IOUArray is an array of debts.
17:18:53 <lambdabot> elliott says: Top universities now employ people to watch infomercials all day to find the latest mysteries.
17:18:54 <lambdabot> elliott says: a typeclass is nothing without semantics
17:18:55 <lambdabot> elliott says: Only two things in the universe are certain: Death, and two of the libraries you've decided to use taking different types of ByteString.
17:18:56 <lambdabot> elliott says: "with a lot of unicode" is like agda's @faq. "yes, agda can do that with a lot of unicode!"
17:18:57 <lambdabot> elliott says: race condition waiting to happen
17:18:58 <lambdabot> elliott says: ... [a] is more of a control structure than a data structure.
17:18:58 <lambdabot> elliott says: Top universities now employ people to watch infomercials all day to find the latest mysteries.
17:19:00 <lambdabot> elliott says: |\/|/-\|-|-|=|\||} is my preferred mappend operator
17:19:11 <shachaf> That's not even an operator.
17:19:18 <lambdabot> elliott says: I have weird mental spheres that I divide all my coding into and that determine editor and the like
17:19:22 <lambdabot> ehird says: 2009: The Year of the Combinatorial Explosion of Haskell Web Frameworks. Also, the Linux Desktop.
17:19:38 <lambdabot> ehird says: 2009: The Year of the Combinatorial Explosion of Haskell Web Frameworks. Also, the Linux Desktop.
17:19:39 <lambdabot> ehird says: 2009: The Year of the Combinatorial Explosion of Haskell Web Frameworks. Also, the Linux Desktop.
17:19:40 <lambdabot> ehird says: 2009: The Year of the Combinatorial Explosion of Haskell Web Frameworks. Also, the Linux Desktop.
17:19:41 <lambdabot> ehird says: 2009: The Year of the Combinatorial Explosion of Haskell Web Frameworks. Also, the Linux Desktop.
17:19:45 <lambdabot> No quotes match. I feel much better now.
17:19:48 <lambdabot> No quotes match. That's something I cannot allow to happen.
17:19:50 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Maybe you made a typo?
17:20:05 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
17:20:14 <zzo38> Things are complicated because edwardk?
17:20:35 <lambdabot> shachaf says: getLine :: IO String contains a String in the same way that /bin/ls contains a list of files
17:20:36 <lambdabot> shachaf says: Finally an opportunity to use my numerous PhDs in monadology! Anyone need any I/O done in useless academic languages? Eh? Eh?
17:20:37 <lambdabot> shachaf says: Finally an opportunity to use my numerous PhDs in monadology! Anyone need any I/O done in useless academic languages? Eh? Eh?
17:20:39 <lambdabot> shachaf says: In order to get the last element of a list, you have to traverse the whole list. This can be an expensive, inefficient, unlazy operation, so you should develop a distaste for it like
17:20:46 <elliott> shachaf: Ah, yes. But coppro probably meant something else.
17:20:47 <lambdabot> shachaf says: You can never escape having learned monads. If you learn two monads, though, you can go back to only knowing one.
17:21:05 <elliott> shachaf: That's monoids, though.
17:21:20 <elliott> m (m a) is not "two monads".
17:21:24 <elliott> But (m, m) is "two monoids".
17:21:31 <elliott> (If we allow "an X" = "a value of an X".)
17:21:33 <shachaf> It's two values whose type is the same monoid.
17:21:39 <lambdabot> shachaf says: Real programming languages have a hype system instead of a type system.
17:21:40 <coppro> monoids for a monoid under the operation "consolidate knowledge"
17:21:43 <lambdabot> shachaf says: @let otherfoolish = not otherwise
17:21:45 <lambdabot> shachaf says: Finally an opportunity to use my numerous PhDs in monadology! Anyone need any I/O done in useless academic languages? Eh? Eh?
17:21:46 <lambdabot> shachaf says: Sometimes things are complicated because the domain is complicated. Other times things are complicated because edwardk.
17:21:47 <lambdabot> shachaf says: <djahandarie> Group projects are stupid <shachaf> Try a semigroup project sometime. You need to lose your identity.
17:21:51 <lambdabot> shachaf says: Sometimes things are complicated because the domain is complicated. Other times things are complicated because edwardk.
17:21:52 <lambdabot> shachaf says: @let otherfoolish = not otherwise
17:21:53 <lambdabot> shachaf says: <djahandarie> Group projects are stupid <shachaf> Try a semigroup project sometime. You need to lose your identity.
17:21:53 <lambdabot> shachaf says: getLine :: IO String contains a String in the same way that /bin/ls contains a list of files
17:21:55 <lambdabot> shachaf says: @let otherfoolish = not otherwise
17:21:58 <lambdabot> No quotes match. I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler.
17:22:01 <lambdabot> oerjan says: i only do impractical things
17:22:06 <elliott> Wait, lambdabot knows oerjan quotes?
17:22:07 <lambdabot> oerjan says: i only do impractical things
17:22:08 <lambdabot> oerjan says: i only do impractical things
17:22:52 <lambdabot> edwardk says: <elliott> cmccann: the instances list haddock generates is now a thing of majesty <edwardk> elliott: welcome to my world
17:23:04 <elliott> That edwardk quote is also a ME quote.
17:23:15 <lambdabot> djahandarie says: Group projects are stupid <shachaf> Try a semigroup project sometime. You need to lose your identity.
17:23:22 <elliott> I like how that's a dupliacte.
17:23:31 <elliott> @forget djahandarie Group projects are stupid <shachaf> Try a semigroup project sometime. You need to lose your identity.
17:23:36 <lambdabot> No quotes match. That's something I cannot allow to happen.
17:23:40 <lambdabot> Eduard_Munteanu says: * Eduard_Munteanu considers coining "Sufficiently advanced category theory is indistinguishable from trolling" <geheimdienst> @remember Eduard_Munteanu [snip] <geheimdienst> ...
17:23:40 <lambdabot> coined <Eduard_Munteanu> Aw.. but I paraphrased shachaf on some other stuff. <Eduard_Munteanu> @forget Eduard_Munteanu [snip]
17:23:40 <lambdabot> DCliche says: @remember elliott @remember @remember @remember
17:24:00 <lambdabot> jmcarthur says: <shachaf> What have [SPJ and JaffaCake] ever done for Haskell? <jmcarthur> evil mangler?
17:24:18 <lambdabot> No quotes match. And you call yourself a Rocket Scientist!
17:24:19 <lambdabot> No quotes match. And you call yourself a Rocket Scientist!
17:24:25 <lambdabot> mauke says: <shachaf> mauke: EBCDIC? <mauke> shachaf: ah, the data encryption standard invented by IBM?
17:24:34 <lambdabot> No quotes for this person. Have you considered trying to match wits with a rutabaga?
17:24:44 <lambdabot> gwern says: "sm_: go fornicate yourself with a goat!" "sm_: er. that was for someone else"
17:25:20 <shachaf> What do you call a rutabaga with CAP_SYS_ADMIN?
17:25:43 <lambdabot> No quotes match. It can only be attributed to human error.
17:25:45 <lambdabot> lambdabot says: I know nothing about wadler.
17:25:52 <shachaf> elliott: The answer is "rootabaga".
17:26:22 <elliott> oerjan: Kick oerjan. Then kick shachaf.
17:26:24 <lambdabot> Plugin `quote' failed with: regex failed: (ReturnCode 8,"Unmatched ( or \\(")
17:26:27 <lambdabot> fasta says: Ok, this is great, now it all appears to work. :(
17:26:30 <lambdabot> augur says: <augur> Saizan: theres someone in here named codensity <Saizan> i see <augur> im being stalked by CT concepts i dont understand :( <Saizan> it happens - Saizan is now known as kan_
17:26:30 <lambdabot> extension * kan_extension stares at augur <augur> AHHHHHH - augur [~augur@129.2.129.32] has quit [] <djahandarie> He was never heard from again.
17:26:36 <lambdabot> br1 says: <br1> un banana me abrio la puerta en la cara y me rompio un pedal de la bici :(
17:26:42 <elliott> un banana me abrio la puerta en la cara y me rompio un pedal de la bici :(
17:26:44 <lambdabot> lispy says: I think communicating with aliens will make unicode obsolete :(
17:26:46 <lambdabot> lispy says: I think communicating with aliens will make unicode obsolete :(
17:26:47 <lambdabot> SyntaxNinja says: You'd be surprised how hard is to hire haskellers :( They're all like, "Yeah, I'll come work for you, and by 'come' I mean stay here and work remotely and by 'work for you' I mean
17:26:47 <lambdabot> I'll keep doing what I'm doing." ;)
17:27:20 <shachaf> Is *that* why they're not making any progress on that iPhone game?
17:27:27 <lambdabot> puusorsa says: do not try this in a shell: :() { :&:; } ;:
17:27:30 <lambdabot> x11 says: -- this assumes bytes are 8 bits. I hope X isn't more portable than that :(
17:27:45 <lambdabot> lispy says: I think communicating with aliens will make unicode obsolete :(
17:27:46 <lambdabot> augur says: <augur> Saizan: theres someone in here named codensity <Saizan> i see <augur> im being stalked by CT concepts i dont understand :( <Saizan> it happens - Saizan is now known as kan_
17:27:47 <lambdabot> extension * kan_extension stares at augur <augur> AHHHHHH - augur [~augur@129.2.129.32] has quit [] <djahandarie> He was never heard from again.
17:27:48 <lambdabot> puusorsa says: do not try this in a shell: :() { :&:; } ;:
17:27:48 <lambdabot> lispy says: I think communicating with aliens will make unicode obsolete :(
17:27:49 <lambdabot> sm says: if this url is infinite, I'm screwed :(
17:27:51 <lambdabot> fasta says: Ok, this is great, now it all appears to work. :(
17:27:55 <lambdabot> monochrom says: Absolute0> copumpkin: do you give out free pumpkins on halloween? :) monochrom> I think copumpkin takes in free pumpkins.
17:27:58 <lambdabot> Cale says: Inheritance? Inheritance is broken, anyway :)
17:28:02 <lambdabot> Cale says: Inheritance? Inheritance is broken, anyway :)
17:28:03 <lambdabot> monochrom says: That does not explain why people struggle with Haskell, a language that is a clean break from other computer languages. However, I can also offer a way out: people preconceive
17:28:03 <lambdabot> Haskell to be "just another computer language", and so they are tricked. If you sold it as "the mother tongue of Martians", perhaps they'll actually pick it up comfortably. :)
17:28:20 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Listen, broccoli brains, I don't have time to listen to this trash.
17:28:26 <lambdabot> lambdabot says: Listen, broccoli brains, I don't have time to listen to this trash.
17:28:40 <lambdabot> pbunbun says: "Lower, lower, LOL YOU FAILED AND NOW IT'S IN YOUR POOPER"
17:28:51 <elliott> @forget pbunbun "Lower, lower, LOL YOU FAILED AND NOW IT'S IN YOUR POOPER"
17:28:53 <lambdabot> byorgey says: ⊥.... is a party pooper
17:29:16 <shachaf> elliott: Speaking of operators, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiIomFNNNxo
17:29:39 <elliott> No, fuck you, I don't need that in my head.
17:30:07 <olsner> wtf, I can now do my tax returns "in the app"
17:30:17 <shachaf> "it's a good song" -- "olsner"
17:30:48 <olsner> the neverhood soundtrack is awesome
17:31:12 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSY_d_Gz8Qc is a good song.
17:33:05 <shachaf> "I put 'em in my hat, and I eat 'em just like that; I put 'em in my ears and in my shoes... / I put 'em in my pants, and I do a little dance; it always seems to take away the blues..."
17:33:27 <shachaf> -- potatoes, tomatoes, gravy and peas "good song" potatoes, tomatoes, gravy and peas
17:33:38 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paZHrGxK7ig good son,g
17:34:05 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Wed Apr 4 10:33:30 2012
17:34:08 <shachaf> I need to be somewhere at 11:00. :-(
17:35:04 <shachaf> So does being awake at 11:00.
17:36:40 * shachaf vanishes in a puff of orange smoke.
17:38:23 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:40:44 <olsner> shachaf: hmm, did you accidentally zzo38 instead of yourself?
17:41:52 <lambdabot> olsner says: nah, SkyNet is just a zygohistomorphic prepromorphism, nothing fancy
17:41:54 <lambdabot> olsner says: <olsner> pun indented
17:41:57 <lambdabot> olsner says: "... take it with a grain of salt. A big grain. Like the kind that they strap to the sides of mules so that they can get it out of the salt mine."
17:41:59 <lambdabot> olsner says: <olsner> pun indented
17:42:01 <lambdabot> olsner says: "... take it with a grain of salt. A big grain. Like the kind that they strap to the sides of mules so that they can get it out of the salt mine."
17:42:01 <lambdabot> olsner says: "... take it with a grain of salt. A big grain. Like the kind that they strap to the sides of mules so that they can get it out of the salt mine."
17:42:02 <lambdabot> olsner says: <olsner> pun indented
17:42:03 <lambdabot> olsner says: < kmc> i think 250 milliolegs is enough to kill an elephant < olsner> kmc: ... to kill an elephant - in the type system!
17:42:22 <olsner> those are not all my quotes
17:42:22 <elliott> a[art frp, tje omdemted one
17:42:29 <lambdabot> olsner says: a mind won't be enough, you need a comind to go with it
17:42:31 <lambdabot> olsner says: a mind won't be enough, you need a comind to go with it
17:42:32 <lambdabot> olsner says: hmm, so perl basically has all harmful features ever invented?
17:42:34 <lambdabot> olsner says: shapr: 2eyb6ard 0a5ntenance
17:42:39 <lambdabot> olsner says: "... take it with a grain of salt. A big grain. Like the kind that they strap to the sides of mules so that they can get it out of the salt mine."
17:42:40 <lambdabot> olsner says: "... take it with a grain of salt. A big grain. Like the kind that they strap to the sides of mules so that they can get it out of the salt mine."
17:42:41 <lambdabot> olsner says: nah, SkyNet is just a zygohistomorphic prepromorphism, nothing fancy
17:42:42 <lambdabot> olsner says: most everything gives nicer everything than perl
17:42:42 <lambdabot> olsner says: <olsner> pun indented
17:42:43 <lambdabot> olsner says: hmm, so perl basically has all harmful features ever invented?
17:42:44 <lambdabot> olsner says: <olsner> pun indented
17:42:50 <olsner> maybe now you got all of them
17:49:06 <olsner> I think I like the keyboard maintenance quote and the ones that hate perl
17:50:02 <oerjan> 2eyb6ard 0a5ntenance 5s very hard t6 d6
17:50:22 * oerjan swats olsner for hating perl -----###
17:50:41 <olsner> the mule salt grain quote is probably from http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14567.phtml
17:51:55 <elliott> 2eyb6ard 0a5ntenance and pun indented are funny
17:53:56 <elliott> oh, that's what "lacuna" means?
18:01:40 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:02:00 <elliott> I cante *guarante* im fish. but
18:02:25 <oerjan> you're frequently in deep water
18:04:11 <elliott> oerjan: what is it with sideways panama
18:04:34 <oerjan> elliott: continents collided. it got messy.
18:04:48 <elliott> oerjan: did you hear about ais' new bf derivative
18:05:05 <oerjan> i may have already forgotten it
18:05:20 <elliott> 22:32:22: <ais523> tape-based, with < > + - from BF, and a "jump to start if nonzero" for program control
18:05:28 <elliott> 22:34:56: <elliott> ais523: I don't think there's any way to meaningfully skip code
18:05:28 <elliott> 22:35:07: <ais523> elliott: exactly, that's the whole point
18:05:28 <elliott> 22:35:11: <ais523> you have to undo it instead
18:05:28 <elliott> 22:35:12: <elliott> all you can do is go back to the start, which basically means that at the first "branching" point, you're stuck
18:05:29 <elliott> 22:35:16: <ais523> < > + - are all reversible
18:05:31 <elliott> 22:35:20: <elliott> hmm...
18:05:33 <elliott> 22:35:39: <elliott> OK, put this on the wiki, it's great
18:05:39 <elliott> the question is obvious :)
18:06:40 <oerjan> wait, if _non_-zero? if it was if _zero_, i could probably get the collatz functions working :(
18:07:04 <tswett> Everyone here is aware of 0x10^c.
18:07:15 <tswett> That is an imperative statement.
18:07:26 <elliott> Yes, we had a big argument about it a day ago.
18:07:45 <elliott> oerjan: well that doesn't mirror BF's loop conditional
18:07:48 <tswett> It has 64 kibbies of memory, right?
18:09:06 <tswett> That's... 64 Kio, isn't it?
18:09:15 <elliott> Sure, if you're unable to multiply.
18:09:36 <elliott> 0x10000 * 16 bits = 0x100000 bits = 128 Kio.
18:10:02 <tswett> I am excellent at noticing details.
18:12:52 <elliott> oerjan: also, your favourite player is about to reach 40k.
18:15:55 <elliott> hmm... if you have a total language, and you want to add a Partial monad, what primitive(s) do you need to add beyond the monad primitives?
18:16:03 <elliott> I think it's just mfix :: (a -> Partial a) -> Partial a
18:16:19 <elliott> (and perhaps there's a simpler primitive, if that is sufficient)
18:16:50 -!- nortti has joined.
18:17:23 <elliott> oh, is that enough to write e.g. fact?
18:17:29 <elliott> I think it's not, because you need the fix around the /function/
18:17:44 <elliott> but Partial (Nat -> Nat) isn't quite right, it'd be Partial (Nat -> Partial Nat) or something
18:17:45 <oerjan> (Partial a -> Partial a) -> Partial a, perhaps?
18:17:59 <elliott> whereas you really want Nat -> Partial Nat
18:18:21 <elliott> oerjan: er I doubt that, that's just fix
18:18:24 <oerjan> i'm not sure how this works with laziness at all
18:18:37 <elliott> it's a total language, so evaluation order is irrelevant
18:18:58 <oerjan> um but (a -> Partial a) -> Partial a only works with laziness, i think
18:19:23 <elliott> oerjan: well you obviously can't define Partial within the language itself, I think
18:19:25 <elliott> it'd be primitive, like IO
18:19:26 <oerjan> because (a -> a) -> a in haskell requires laziness
18:19:56 <elliott> but I don't know how to implement mfix for that
18:20:16 <oerjan> elliott: i thought the codata Partial a = Now a | Later (Partial a) was sort of standard
18:21:01 <elliott> right, that's in fact exactly what i just typed out
18:21:08 <elliott> then i realised that i've defined that in haskell, and gave up on writing a MonadFix instance for it
18:21:16 <elliott> so perhaps mfix /is/ wrong
18:22:30 <oerjan> the thing is if you have (a -> Partial a), you have no way to apply it without getting an a, which you never get. oh hm there's that monad stuff...
18:22:51 <elliott> fact 0 = Now 1; fact (n+1) = ((n+1) *) <$> fact n
18:23:02 <elliott> fact 0 = Now 1; fact (n+1) = Later $ ((n+1) *) <$> fact n
18:23:06 <elliott> yep, that'd pass the termination checker
18:23:18 <elliott> the question is how to write it without the awkward explicit Now/Later
18:23:22 <elliott> later :: Partial a -> Partial a isn't enough
18:23:27 <elliott> if it was, you could just use id
18:23:41 <elliott> now i've just confused myself...
18:25:47 <oerjan> mfix f = f <$> Later (mfix f)
18:26:47 <oerjan> that will just give Later $ Later $ ...
18:27:31 <oerjan> mfix f = Later $ f (mfix f); mfix :: (Partial a -> Partial a) -> Partial a
18:28:07 <elliott> what if f peels off a Later constructor?
18:28:25 <elliott> erm rather, peels off more than one I guess
18:28:42 <elliott> it would help if i had an intuition of how totality checkers work :)
18:28:46 <elliott> esp. in presence of codata
18:29:53 <oerjan> possibly the Partial monad adds essential strictness...
18:30:02 <elliott> especially i've confused myself wrt. later :: Partial a -> Partial a; later = Later
18:30:09 <elliott> is it *really* not ok to substitute Later -> later in all code?
18:30:19 <elliott> surely the totality checker "remembers" what definitions do so that that kind of substitution becomes legal...
18:30:57 <oerjan> surely it has to make simplifications to avoid blowing things up all the time
18:31:20 <elliott> oerjan: well, yes, but not doing that destroys /referential transparency/
18:32:04 <oerjan> probably typing rules always do that :P
18:32:36 <elliott> oerjan: except the types are the same here...
18:32:59 <elliott> (I don't buy that typing rules do that, that's just a misconception caused by the fact that the application of type lambdas is left implicit by most languages)
18:33:00 <oerjan> but the type Partial a -> Partial a is not sufficient information for the totality checker
18:33:08 <elliott> (i.e. Later @Int :: Partial Int -> Partial Int)
18:33:29 <elliott> oerjan: that's why i'm saying, it surely must record more, or examine the definition, or such...
18:33:37 <elliott> (maybe we need constructor peeling as part of the types...)
18:33:52 <elliott> ooh i only need two more accepted answers today to break 300
18:34:25 <oerjan> when did you lose that 200 limit...
18:35:02 <elliott> oerjan: answers being accepted (+15) and bounties are immune from the rep cap, it's just on upvotes
18:35:22 <elliott> OTOH, upvotes are a lot easier to come buy than the others
18:35:41 <elliott> the top few users make like 400/day
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18:36:03 <shachaf> elliott: You're *buying* upvotes?
18:36:08 <elliott> this guy is insane and figured out how to get up to over 1000/day by doing a bunch of bounties: http://stackoverflow.com/users/517815/mrgomez?tab=reputation
18:36:34 <shachaf> "i buy upvotes" -- elliott "i buy upvotes" hird
18:36:57 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 19:36:52
18:37:00 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Wed Apr 4 20:36:27 2012
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18:38:24 <lambdabot> Local time for clog is Wed Apr 4 11:38:12 2012
18:40:21 <elliott> shachaf: Remember http://ompldr.org/vZDhvag/shachef.png?
18:46:06 <shachaf> elliott: Is clog named after the Neverhood character?
18:46:28 <shachaf> That bot's nick should definitely be klogg.
18:46:40 <nortti> www.osnews.com/comments/25762 oh god why!?
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18:52:13 <elliott> I don't dot he "breathin" thing okaye .
18:52:23 <shachaf> elliott: Did you ever see the BAD ENDING in the Neverhood?
18:52:59 <elliott> If I did I've probably forgotten it by now.
18:59:47 <elliott> shachaf: Have you ever DESTROYED a KITTEN?
19:01:02 <shachaf> elliott: DESTROYED its sense of DIGNITY by FUZZING it?
19:15:16 <HackEgo> /i \ //, \ ///i \ ,/ ).'i \ | )-i \ | )i \ ' )i \ / |- \ _.-./-. /z_ \ `-. >._\ _ );i. \ / `-'/`k-'`u)-'` \ /
19:15:42 <elliott> `addquote <nortti> `fortune <HackEgo> /i \ //, \ ///i \ ,/ ).'i \ | )-i \ | )i \ ' )i \ / |- \ _.-./-. /z_ \ `-. >._\ _ );i. \ / `-'/`k-'`u)-'` \ /
19:15:45 <HackEgo> 836) <nortti> `fortune <HackEgo> /i \ //, \ ///i \ ,/ ).'i \ | )-i \ | )i \ ' )i \ / |- \ _.-./-. /z_ \ `-. >._\ _ );i. \ / `-'/`k-'`u)-'` \ /
19:17:36 <nortti> does anyone have any idea what the fuck HackEgo's output is supposed to mean?
19:19:19 <HackEgo> millihelen, n.: \.The amount of beauty required to launch one ship.
19:20:45 <HackEgo> Amar-te trama. \ -- palndromo
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19:54:27 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 20:54:21
19:54:48 <elliott> Yesss, 4 hours left to get 2 accepts
19:55:46 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
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19:57:59 <elliott> shachaf: Astrophysics, right?
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20:08:47 -!- variable has joined.
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20:18:38 <nortti> who is selling that advertised infinite tape?
20:22:28 <ion> Infinite tape? It will begin at the factory and end at my place and they’ll keep printing more whenever i pull it?
20:25:16 <elliott> nortti: RocketJSquirrel, I think.
20:27:39 <olsner> wasn't it oerjan's tape?
20:27:59 <olsner> hmm, doesn't mean RocketJSquirrel can't sell it I guess
20:33:48 <elliott> Do you believe in *dogs* and *arms*? And *candelabra*?
20:34:47 <olsner> no, but candelabras believe in me - for I am their god
20:39:58 * Sgeo is suddenly reminded of an FRC round
20:40:39 <elliott> olsner: "Candelabrum" or "candelabron", silly.
20:44:03 -!- derdon has joined.
20:46:40 <elliott> olsner: Er, I meant "candelabra".
20:46:49 <elliott> That was the singular. Thing. Help.
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20:50:21 <olsner> candelabrums is the only alternative left I haven't tried?
20:52:01 <elliott> http://kaizer.se/wiki/log/post/C++_constexpr_foldr/
20:52:12 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 21:52:07
20:53:44 <lambdabot> unexpected end of input: expecting number
20:59:24 <elliott> "My question is when I print out the numbers till a precision of 36 bits, why are the numbers, 0 , 0.5 and 1.0 represented exactly, wherars the other numbers seem to have some garbage numbers placed at the end?"
20:59:32 <elliott> Stack Overflow should ban qusetions about floating point.
21:03:29 <olsner> you should answer something about 32-bit architecture and how 4 undefined bits get included ... he was just lucky the undefined bits were 0
21:04:13 <olsner> use your sock puppets then
21:12:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:12:41 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
21:14:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Also you have now spread the knowledge that there is such a thing as intjforum.com to me as well.
21:15:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: obama is interviewing seolangs tomorrow. hes askin the tough questions. askin, do we really need another bf deriavtive
21:22:56 <elliott> you are many bf derivative then
21:23:05 <elliott> died of autobrainbrickening
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22:08:10 <olsner> maybe that should be in german though... dann wer ist das Auto?
22:09:12 <elliott> wir fahren fahren fahren etc.
22:10:09 <ais523> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> no olsner <Phantom_Hoover> i am now enlighten <Phantom_Hoover> i am the brick <Phantom_Hoover> and i am the brain
22:10:12 <HackEgo> 837) <Phantom_Hoover> no olsner <Phantom_Hoover> i am now enlighten <Phantom_Hoover> i am the brick <Phantom_Hoover> and i am the brain
22:10:17 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: does this mean that if I create a BF derivative, you'll hit yourself?
22:11:10 -!- augur has joined.
22:11:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: he already did tho
22:11:34 <elliott> <elliott> 22:32:22: <ais523> tape-based, with < > + - from BF, and a "jump to start if nonzero" for program control
22:11:34 <elliott> <elliott> 22:34:56: <elliott> ais523: I don't think there's any way to meaningfully skip code
22:11:34 <elliott> <elliott> 22:35:07: <ais523> elliott: exactly, that's the whole point
22:11:34 <elliott> <elliott> 22:35:11: <ais523> you have to undo it instead
22:11:35 <elliott> <elliott> 22:35:12: <elliott> all you can do is go back to the start, which basically means that at the first "branching" point, you're stuck
22:11:38 <elliott> <elliott> 22:35:16: <ais523> < > + - are all reversible
22:11:40 <elliott> <elliott> 22:35:20: <elliott> hmm...
22:11:42 <elliott> <elliott> 22:35:39: <elliott> OK, put this on the wiki, it's great
22:11:50 <ais523> elliott: I started putting it on the wiki
22:11:58 <elliott> but then you took an aaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh
22:12:10 <ais523> elliott: is that a Skyrim reference reference?
22:13:27 <elliott> "You've earned the "Strunk & White" badge. See your profile."
22:14:30 <ais523> an achievement? on what website? (I'm guessing a website from context)
22:14:37 <ais523> oh, and I'm guessing stackoverflow
22:16:00 <elliott> ais523: yes (the badges are worthless tho who cares about those)
22:20:06 <elliott> pps more like strunk n SHITE
22:21:09 <ais523> elliott: surely you're not /that/ bad at trolling?
22:21:41 <elliott> ais523: bad enough to make u ask that TROLLD
22:21:50 * elliott stands by original sux comment though
22:23:17 <elliott> hoovers hoovering hoovers is an abomination against god
22:26:45 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 23:26:39
22:26:47 <lambdabot> Local time for Phantom_Hoover is Wed Apr 4 22:23:16
22:26:51 <elliott> What time is it in America, Hoover?
22:28:48 <olsner> half six? so it's three then?
22:42:14 <elliott> Ha, I just corrected an SO moderator and they deleted their comment *and* mine.
22:42:26 <elliott> THE PUBLIC WILL NEVER KNOW
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22:48:52 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan missed it! <-- missed what?
22:51:58 <oerjan> trondheim is all around us. well some of us.
22:52:22 * oerjan assumes elliott isn't trying to make sense
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22:59:47 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 23:59:41
23:05:16 <elliott> i wonder if i can pass daniel soon
23:05:20 <elliott> oerjan: ps by trondheim 40k i meant hammar
23:05:30 <elliott> it am like the biggest sportses win and u miss it
23:06:06 <oerjan> sheesh you know i don't care about sport
23:06:23 <elliott> oerjan: STACK OVERFLOW YOU BLITHERING MORON
23:06:34 <elliott> the thing i told you about literally right before you left and you waved a trondheim flag :P
23:06:38 <oerjan> i sense much anger in you.
23:06:49 <elliott> at least I didn't call you a blithering mormon.
23:07:05 <elliott> (that's reserved for mitt romney)
23:07:37 <oerjan> hm, trondheim, 40k, hammar, warhammer 40k, coincidence? WE ARE ALL DOOMED!
23:08:04 <elliott> elliott@solidity:~$ sudo wc -l /var/log/nginx/access.log.1
23:08:04 <elliott> 41163 /var/log/nginx/access.log.1
23:08:04 <elliott> elliott@solidity:~$ sudo wc -l /var/log/nginx/access.log
23:08:04 <elliott> 78164 /var/log/nginx/access.log
23:08:08 <elliott> this is your server on proggit.
23:08:23 <elliott> (and there's still some 7 hours left before the log rolls over!)
23:08:43 <oerjan> yes, are those over the same time period?
23:09:27 <oerjan> or is the first everything _before_ today
23:10:20 <oerjan> it's just a different day i guess
23:11:06 <elliott> it rolls over at 06:00 UTC
23:11:22 <oerjan> sounds like a strangely temporary numbering scheme
23:11:35 <elliott> oerjan: well it's log rotation... every day all the archived logs get their number increased
23:11:46 <elliott> and access.log becomes access.log.1 and access.log becomes the new one
23:11:57 <elliott> (and access.log.2 onwards are kept gzipped)
23:11:59 <elliott> currently we're up to access.log.47.gz
23:12:28 <oerjan> so we can deduce the rotation is probably more than 32 bit.
23:13:05 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: ...Why would I do that?
23:13:13 <elliott> "Why not just... rm -r /srv/esolangs.org?"
23:13:21 <elliott> Maybe 'cuz I don't remove data without a reason...?
23:25:18 <oerjan> oh, i was hoping it was more like
23:25:39 <elliott> oerjan: it can be. but beware of the
23:26:28 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
23:27:12 <oerjan> sorry, i'm busy being eaten by a
23:27:56 <elliott> oerjan: what a coincidence! I'm a
23:29:18 <oerjan> in that case, could you please
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23:34:10 <oerjan> Sgeo: is that a new record?
23:34:24 <oerjan> assuming you weren't breathing before
23:39:07 <Sgeo> We all died. Try again later.
23:39:38 <oerjan> 2011, a great year for breatharianism
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23:44:02 <ais523> NSQX: do you understand what it is you've been doing wrong?
23:44:26 <NSQX> If an administrator just unblocks me I will continue editing [[UniCode]]
23:44:41 <ais523> if you're just adding a bunch of stub commands, that is not a useful thing to do
23:44:42 <monqy> a persuasive argument
23:45:05 <monqy> as everyone knows, [[UniCode]] desperately needs edits
23:45:32 <oerjan> yeah that han unification needs some undoing
23:46:02 <NSQX> I'll just take one day to add all 65536 characters to the table.
23:46:12 <monqy> can you type that fast?
23:46:24 <elliott> NSQX: Your bot has looked up the properties of the non-existent page [[UniCode/0]] in the web server logs. Can you explain why it's doing that, since we've told you nobody is allowed to run bots that do editing without permission?
23:46:40 <ais523> NSQX: what would be the point unless you have meanings for all of them?
23:46:41 <elliott> And multiple people have already explained that it's not practical or desired to add all Unicode characters to a single page.
23:46:44 <ais523> large autogenerated pages are pointless
23:47:27 <elliott> For someone to be unblocked early, the admins have to be convinced that the user understands the reason they're blocked, and has resolved to not repeat such behaviour again. Unfortunately, I don't see either of that.
23:49:48 <elliott> NSQX: also, there's more than 65536 unicode characters, as multiple people have also told you
23:50:14 <elliott> so the resulting page would be even bigger and even more of a problem for the server
23:50:31 <Madoka-Kaname> elliott, do I have permission to make a bot to edit pages automatically? It'll add rainbows and sparkles to random pages.
23:50:51 <ais523> Madoka-Kaname: that's probably better done at the CSS level
23:52:10 <ais523> NSQX: anyway, if you continue filling up UniCode with autogenerated information rather than /useful/ information after the block expires, you'll just end up being blocked again
23:53:32 <Madoka-Kaname> Just like a keyboard is an extension of my normal speech capabilities.
23:53:33 <NSQX> Then, we first have to think of what the UniCode instructions will do, but that is 65536 different instructions to think of.
23:53:40 <kmc> and there are fewer than 65536 characters in the first 2^16 bits of Unicode, too
23:53:50 <kmc> er first 2^16 codepoints >_<
23:53:52 <Madoka-Kaname> I highly doubt you can think of 65536 distinct instructions for a language.
23:54:07 <monqy> if we work together
23:54:09 <monqy> we can do anything
23:54:15 <elliott> well it's certainly a possible collaborative project, but that isn't the issue here
23:54:21 <kmc> if we work together we can understand basic properties of unicode?
23:54:30 <elliott> NSQX: it's perfectly OK for [[UniCode]] to get filled out incrementally, as commands are given meaning
23:54:32 <monqy> proposal: q enters banana scheme mode
23:54:38 <elliott> but it's not OK to just fill it out with a contentless subset of unicode
23:54:46 <ais523> NSQX: right; the best thing to do is to add characters to the article only when people have come up with meanings for them
23:55:55 <NSQX> Well, the autogenerated information is just to get a start on the table.
23:56:12 <Madoka-Kaname> You can autogenerate a section of the table when you actually intend to fill it out.
23:56:14 <elliott> NSQX: yes, but it'd result in server problems
23:56:23 <elliott> browsers don't handle such gigantic pages well
23:56:33 <elliott> it would use up a lot of bandwidth sending it down to clients on the server, which indirectly costs me money
23:57:10 <elliott> you can use templates to make the creation of the table easier; if you want to use a bot to fill items out *as they're given meaning*, then you could seek approval for that; but just adding an empty table wholesale will result in lots of problems
23:57:14 <kmc> nqsx why don't you run your own wiki and fill it with bullshit
23:57:58 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: more than that, it's more than one character per table row
23:58:26 <Madoka-Kaname> That's about the 1/3 a random ebook I have lying around.
00:00:44 <elliott> NSQX: do you at least understand that you must not make edits with a bot unless you have admin permission to, or you will get blocked again?
00:00:48 <elliott> and this applies to *everybody*, not just you
00:03:08 <kmc> i hate it when people make a big herping point about phrases like "ATM machine" being 'redundant'
00:03:28 <kmc> like how many of us actually think "automated teller machine" when we see ATM?
00:04:10 <ais523> kmc: "ATM machine" is really annoying, though
00:04:24 <kmc> ATM is just a word and sometimes the phrase "ATM machine" sounds more natural in context
00:04:25 <ais523> in fact, I get annoyed by following an acronym with a word that starts with the same letter as the last letter of the acronym
00:04:28 <ais523> even if it's a different word
00:04:41 <kmc> if you purge english of all redundancies everywhere, you'll end up with horrible stilted prose that pleases grammarians only
00:05:16 <ais523> it's not a redundancy, though, it's an inaccuracy
00:05:20 <kmc> (i am writing an article and want to say "PNG graphics" but can't because mouthbreathing dorks will whine about it)
00:05:22 <ais523> an ATM machine would be a machine that made or serviced ATMs
00:05:29 <kmc> an ATM is a type of machine
00:05:34 <ais523> kmc: "PNG-format graphics"
00:05:46 <elliott> ais523: that only applies if ATM = automated teller machine
00:05:51 <kmc> ais523, so i have to add an extra word to a sentence that was already perfectly good
00:06:09 <elliott> since it's not in common usage to treat it as its expanded form, it's not
00:09:56 <ais523> "PNG-format graphics" would be correct, I think
00:09:59 -!- NSQX has quit (Quit: leaving).
00:10:46 <kmc> where do people get this idea of "correct" which is divorced from the very purpose of language
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00:11:50 <ais523> kmc: "correct" as in its meaning is clear to other people
00:11:52 <kmc> anyway if someone complains i will tell them PNG really stands for "PNG's Not GIF"
00:12:03 <kmc> ais523, you think the phrase "PNG graphics" is less clear than "PNG-format graphics"?
00:12:07 <elliott> anyone who doesn't know what "PNG graphics" means is being disingenuous
00:12:21 <ais523> "ATM machine" actually has a different meaning from "ATM", as I explained earlier
00:12:23 <elliott> but i don't know why kmc would listen to ais523 about this :)
00:12:30 <kmc> no it doesn't
00:12:42 <kmc> that's a common sort of construction
00:12:58 <kmc> a lamprey eel is a type of eel
00:13:02 <kmc> it's not like an eel made out of tiny eels
00:13:16 <kmc> an atm machine is a type of machine
00:13:35 <ais523> kmc: a red eel is also a type of eel
00:13:39 <ais523> a red eel eel isn't, it's just meaningless
00:13:42 <elliott> I don't know what kind of lamprey eels you've seen.
00:13:50 <oerjan> AutomatedTellerMachineMachineFactoryFactoryServer
00:13:54 <elliott> But the ones I have were definitely made out of tiny eels.
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00:15:28 <kmc> let's make up arbitrary rules about language so we can smugly "correct" other people and feel smart
00:15:55 <kmc> thou shalt not split infinitives
00:16:10 <kmc> splitting an infinitive indicates that you weren't beaten enough in school
00:16:22 <kmc> and therefore that your parents were too poor to afford a school with high quality beatings
00:16:31 <kmc> and therefore that you are of Low Class
00:17:11 <oerjan> hah! i shall endeavor to boldly and rebelliously split my infinites whenever ponder what preposition to end my sentences with
00:18:14 <oerjan> that wasn't meant to have that many _accidental_ misspellings.
00:18:32 * oerjan kicks poor muphry across the room
00:18:33 <elliott> ais523: which of these is more helpful: "You've got RAS." "You've got RAS syndrome." -- the latter, because acronyms are inherently ambiguous, and nearby context works to clarify and make reading easier and smoother
00:18:50 <elliott> there is no more natural way to supply that context; it would be an arbitrary, ugly construction solely for avoiding a silly prescriptivist rule :)
00:18:51 <ais523> elliott: the latter, "RAS syndrome" is the correct name
00:19:02 <elliott> but it's Redundant Acronym Syndrome syndrome!
00:19:02 <kmc> C O R R E C T
00:19:03 <ais523> just like brainfuck starts with a lower case letter
00:19:06 <elliott> that would be a syndrome where you get a syndrome
00:19:28 <oerjan> the syndrome syndrome syndrome
00:19:29 <ais523> or Compiler Language With No Pronounceable Acronym abbreviates to INTERCAL
00:19:33 <kmc> actually B.R.A.I.N.F.U.C.K. is an acronym
00:19:40 <kmc> you are Incorrect™
00:20:02 <elliott> I wish I owned the trademark on "you are incorrect".
00:20:24 <elliott> ais523: anyway, what about PIN number?
00:20:34 <elliott> "PIN number" is also a helpful disambiguator
00:20:36 <ais523> I think PIN number is correct due to strength of usage
00:20:37 <elliott> for the exact same reasons
00:20:48 <elliott> ok, so your argument is just that "ATM machine" is uncommon?
00:20:50 <ais523> and ATM machine isn't because I've heard anyone seriously say ATM machine
00:21:01 <ais523> except as an example of RAS syndrome
00:21:18 <elliott> http://www.atmmachine.com/ http://atmequipment.com/ ("Leading ATM Machine Retailer")
00:21:30 <elliott> "An automatic teller machine or ATM allows a bank customer to conduct their banking transactions from almost every other ATM machine in the world." http://inventors.about.com/od/astartinventions/a/atm.htm
00:21:47 <elliott> http://www.atmtellermachine.com/ "ATM Machine [...]"
00:22:00 <elliott> here it is in a news headline:
00:22:04 <elliott> http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-04-03/vadodara/31280444_1_sbi-atm-bharuch-india-s-atm "SBI ATM machine stolen from Bharuch"
00:22:10 <ais523> elliott: the two *machine.com links don't count because they're blatant SEO attempts
00:22:19 <elliott> (from "The Times of India (TOI) is an Indian English-language daily newspaper. According to Audit Bureau of Circulations, it has the largest circulation among all English-language newspapers in the world, across all formats (broadsheet, tabloid, compact, Berliner and online).")
00:22:29 <oerjan> elliott: india doesn't count. they have the issac newton college, q.e.d.
00:22:32 <ais523> I'll accept the others
00:22:50 <ais523> elliott: would you say "SEO optimization" is a correct synonym of SEO, btw? if not, why not?
00:23:05 <monqy> what's "correct" and why should anyone care
00:23:15 <elliott> it's perfectly understandable
00:23:34 <elliott> and I almost certainly wouldn't notice it if reading an article containing it
00:23:45 <Sgeo> Calling "ATM machine" a machine that makes ATMs seems perfectly acceptable to me in jest
00:23:50 <Sgeo> But not in seriousness
00:23:57 <elliott> ais523: http://boingboing.net/2011/11/02/snake-in-atm-machine.html (yeah, boing boing is scraping the barrel, but still, it's evidence of colloquial usage)
00:24:00 <ais523> elliott: I'd interpret it as definitely different from SEO, it just makes no sense
00:24:10 <ais523> or, well, optimizing your SEO
00:24:21 <ais523> what about using single words rather than acronyms?
00:24:25 <shachaf> Are you people still talking about automatics ATM teller machines?
00:24:33 <ais523> can I say "single word word" rather than "single word"?
00:24:35 <elliott> it only works with acronyms, because they "hide" the word inside
00:24:44 <elliott> "word word" is redundant because word = word
00:24:50 <elliott> "ATM machine" is not because ATM =/= * machine
00:24:54 <Sgeo> How relevant is Stephen Fry's Language thing?
00:24:54 <ais523> elliott: "don't do not"?
00:25:12 <elliott> "Gold ATM machine at Westfield: meet the first customer" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/8610819/Gold-ATM-machine-at-Westfield-meet-the-first-customer.html
00:25:21 <elliott> "Mad Snake Inside ATM Machine" http://www.buzzfeed.com/mikep13/mad-snake-in-atm-machine-3t1w
00:25:32 <elliott> "Lego NXT ATM Machine with Change Maker" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0Z-ym0k89Q
00:25:36 <kmc> shachaf, i seem to have trolled ais523 by accident
00:25:41 <kmc> to boldly troll
00:25:48 <elliott> ais523: if PIN number is OK because of usage, then ATM machine is unquestionably too
00:26:12 <shachaf> kmc: You should title your autobiography "The Accidental Troll"
00:26:13 <kmc> nonsense, a tab is an unspecified amount of horizontal space indicating a logical nesting level
00:26:49 <elliott> /part the channel immediately
00:26:52 -!- augur has joined.
00:26:55 <ais523> elliott: it's OK, I was self-parodying
00:27:01 <elliott> ais523: you can't be trusted to self-parody!
00:27:24 <ais523> oh, someone in another channel brought up "KFC chicken"
00:27:25 <shachaf> When I press the Tab key on my keyboard, my editor inserts U+00038
00:27:35 <ais523> which I think is definitely correct for referring to the chicken they sell
00:27:37 <elliott> ais523: that's fine even if you're stupid and anal
00:27:39 <kmc> KFC serves things that aren't chicken too!
00:27:39 <ais523> and cannot refer to the company
00:27:47 <ais523> whereas KFC always refers to the company, not to their products
00:27:49 <elliott> since Kentucky Fried Chicken is a company, and they sell chicken, which is Kentucky Fried Chicken chicken
00:27:51 <kmc> well company names are proper nouns
00:28:04 <kmc> if someone called me "Keegan person" i would probably be... confused
00:28:05 <elliott> that means "I went to get some unspecified products from KFC"
00:28:05 <ais523> people actually say that? ouch
00:28:26 <elliott> but that's not because it ends with chicken, that's just colloquial usage
00:28:40 <ais523> "a McDonalds"? "a Burger King"?
00:28:52 <elliott> ais523: "some" works better than "a", I think
00:28:55 <ais523> kmc: is your name actually Keegan? if not, I see why you'd be confused
00:28:58 <elliott> and it might work better for KFC in general because it's a short acronym
00:29:44 <kmc> protip: if you go to KFC, do not order then Unspecified Product
00:30:27 <elliott> Finally, shachaf discovers the optimally condescending statement.
00:30:41 <ais523> strangely, neither have I, which is surprising given that it's the physically nearest major fast food chain to my house
00:30:47 <ais523> perhaps I should some day, probably Friday
00:30:54 <oerjan> kmc: hey that's just fud, the unspecified product is guaranteed to be from genuine vertebrates
00:30:57 <elliott> OK, "some day, probably Friday" is hilarious
00:31:10 <elliott> "Perhaps I'll see her again some day ... Sunday, perhaps"
00:31:20 <ais523> elliott: oh, I didn't mean this Friday, I meant an unspecified Friday
00:31:35 <shachaf> elliott: That sentence doesn't even contain a mention of how I"m morally superior to you because I don't eat the flesh of previous-conscious entities!
00:31:46 <elliott> shachaf: But that one does!
00:31:50 * oerjan thinks he ate at a KFC once
00:32:04 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know KFC sell products that aren't made from dead animal?
00:32:17 <ais523> oerjan: the fact that you're not sure probably means that it wasn't a particularly memorable experience
00:32:19 <oerjan> or bought something, or something like that
00:32:46 <oerjan> ais523: _or_ that it's 16 years ago, if so
00:33:02 <elliott> oerjan: maybe you ate at KFC the day I was born.
00:33:10 <elliott> Can I get a "synchronicity"???
00:33:21 <oerjan> elliott: sadly it would have been in the spring.
00:33:32 <elliott> Well, summer is basically spring.
00:34:18 <shachaf> oerjan: elliott is suggesting that you are a relative of his.
00:34:30 <elliott> Heyyy, I was tryin'a be subtle.
00:35:52 <shachaf> monqy: Are you a relative of elliott's?
00:35:59 <shachaf> According to Darwin, monqy is my ancestor.
00:36:11 <elliott> monqy is everybody's cousin.
00:36:59 <oerjan> 134605th cousin, 40902 times removed
00:38:18 <RocketJSquirrel> I don't think humans get more than about 4000th, and probably much less.
00:38:21 <oerjan> RocketJSquirrel: for a human and a monkey?
00:38:25 <shachaf> oerjan: RocketJSquirrel is calling you unlikely.
00:38:45 <RocketJSquirrel> For I am a flying squirrel, and hence an even more distant cousin.
00:39:07 <kmc> if evolution is true then why does monqy still exist HMMMMMM???
00:39:14 <kmc> checkmate, atheists
00:39:32 <shachaf> I always wanted to prove a point using a type-checker.
00:39:37 <shachaf> And then say "type-checkmate"
00:39:38 <RocketJSquirrel> If evolution is real, then how are there people stupid enough to believe in Intelligent Design?
00:40:00 <elliott> kmc: monqy is actually a squirrel.
00:40:05 * oerjan hits kmc with the holy saucepan of smyrna ===\__/
00:40:34 <kmc> because historically, assigning agency to natural processes is more adaptive than the alternative of running around screaming in ignorant terror of the world
00:40:35 <oerjan> RocketJSquirrel: darn good argument
00:40:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Apparently the alcohol laws in Pennsylvania are such that beer cannot be sold in quantities of less than 24 cans.
00:41:10 <kmc> in PA all booze is sold by the state
00:41:19 <elliott> oerjan: Can you kick Phantom_Hoover for being away for the entire duration of that tense situation?
00:41:31 <kmc> oh but maybe not for beer
00:42:20 <shachaf> If I spam this channel you'd kick me, right?
00:42:34 <shachaf> Can we just say I spammed this channel?
00:42:41 <oerjan> i recall memories of using my op powers for jokes. ...bad memories.
00:42:54 <elliott> No, it's okay. I told you to do it, so you can trust me.
00:43:11 <ais523> oerjan: you can remember /that/ but not KFC?
00:43:30 <elliott> `addquote <oerjan> i recall memories of using my op powers for jokes. ...bad memories. <ais523> oerjan: you can remember /that/ but not KFC?
00:43:33 <HackEgo> 838) <oerjan> i recall memories of using my op powers for jokes. ...bad memories. <ais523> oerjan: you can remember /that/ but not KFC?
00:43:34 <elliott> KFC: the most memorable thing.
00:43:47 <oerjan> ais523: yes, surprisingly my memory for a week ago is better than 16 years ago
00:44:08 <Phantom_Hoover> I love how NSQX doesn't seem to realise that if you need to autogenerate the spec of a language you can just put the generating script up and call it the spec.
00:44:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: He was trying to generate a stub table so he could fill it in.
00:44:25 <elliott> oerjan: Also, can you kick shachaf so he shuts up about getting kicked?
00:45:18 <elliott> Can you stop taking questions beginning with "can you" literally?
00:45:53 <ais523> elliott: if you put a "please" on there, he could no longer misinterpret you like that
00:46:12 <elliott> oerjan: Also, can you kick shachaf so he shuts up about getting kicked, please?
00:46:19 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> "Perhaps I'll see her again some day ... Sunday, perhaps"
00:46:21 <elliott> ais523: I think he might kick you now though.
00:46:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, I can.
00:46:40 <ais523> elliott: people stopped kicking me after a while, my reaction to being kicked is scary
00:46:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OK you're right, I accidentally came up with a spectacular entry.
00:47:02 <elliott> ais523: Oh man. Tell us or we'll organise a demonstration.
00:47:04 -!- MDude has joined.
00:47:15 <ais523> elliott: just disappear for a while and make them think that they've mortally offended me
00:47:23 <oerjan> ais523: hey now you're making me _curious_
00:47:25 <ais523> it doesn't work if you tell people what it is, though
00:47:30 <elliott> ais523: wow, peace for that long?
00:47:37 <elliott> we won't hear a peep about ATM machines or tab widths
00:47:40 <ais523> elliott: isn't that what /ignore is for?
00:48:01 <elliott> ais523: /ignore is useless for people who don't monologue because you see people's reactions
00:48:18 <elliott> (which means it is excellently effective against certain monologuers.)
00:48:22 <monqy> solution ignore the whole channel
00:48:33 <ais523> monqy: there's even a command for that, /part
00:48:39 -!- elliott has left ("really? awesome").
00:48:40 <ais523> although it causes the channel to ignore you too
00:49:03 -!- elliott has joined.
00:49:14 <elliott> oerjan: actually if you just do /msg chanserv clear, that'll preemptively answer all possible requests for kicking
00:49:25 <elliott> and also punish the terminal idlers.
00:49:52 <ais523> elliott: it requires a couple more params than that
00:50:22 <monqy> the channel, at least
00:50:29 <ais523> /cs clear #esoteric users
00:50:35 <ais523> phew, I remembered to escape the / correctly
00:50:41 <elliott> ais523: you accidentally added an extra /
00:51:04 <elliott> 00:48:40: <ais523> although it causes the channel to ignore you too
00:51:12 <elliott> ais523: not in channels without the fascist +n mode
00:51:22 * ais523 wonders how many channels don't have +n
00:51:53 <elliott> we got -c, surely we can get -n here too? then the channel would have *no modes*
00:52:32 <ais523> elliott: doesn't it have +b? or does it have an empty banlist?
00:52:49 <ais523> wow, the banlist's actually longer than I rememeber
00:52:50 <elliott> well, an empty /mode output
00:53:04 <elliott> you can probably wipe that bot list
00:53:24 <elliott> oh wait, alvur was in herej ust days ago
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00:53:33 <elliott> * #esoteric Banlist: Sun Apr 1 11:21:38 *!*alvur@95.57.97.* oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no
00:53:34 <elliott> * #esoteric Banlist: Fri Mar 30 21:17:26 *!*alvur@178.89.139.* oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no
00:53:50 <ais523> and what were they doing?
00:54:00 <elliott> they came in here pretending to be christian, calling us magicians and heretics
00:54:13 <ais523> do you think they were aware that the channel wasn't about that?
00:54:17 <elliott> then they used a certain racial slur beginning with the letter "n" and it took like half an hour before anyone bothered to kick him
00:54:18 <ais523> (they could be and still do it, if they were a troll)
00:54:41 <elliott> ais523: well, they later revealed they're actually an atheist in /msg to nortti, who copied that here.
00:54:51 <elliott> but I don't know, it could go either way.
00:54:57 <ais523> that doesn't actually answer the question, but it's still interesting
00:55:04 <ais523> and why would they PM nortti about that?
00:55:13 <ais523> or were they trolling #christian too or something?
00:55:16 <elliott> because norrti was attempting to engage them in debate in /msg
00:55:17 <kmc> atheist sex maniacs
00:55:27 <elliott> don't ask me why, I have no adequate answer
00:55:35 <monqy> is there a #christian in addition to #jesus
00:55:37 <ais523> counter-trolling is the most likely answer, I think
00:55:42 <ais523> monqy: I don't know, I just made it up
00:55:52 <elliott> ais523: no, he argued with him in #esoteric first and pasted the full /msg log afterwards
00:56:05 <elliott> it was fairly standard atheist argumentation, so it'd have to be a really subtle countertroll :P
00:56:06 <monqy> apparently there is a #christian
00:56:12 <elliott> monqy: are you in #christian now
00:56:37 <monqy> Sgeo: do you know anything about #christian
00:57:24 <elliott> the worst possible relpy you could give
00:57:34 <Sgeo> I joined it just now, luke-jr is there
00:57:45 <Sgeo> There's almost no one there for what it's wroth
00:58:07 <elliott> that luke-jr popped up indirectly in another place on the internet recently, now i'm devoting a small portion of my mind to disliking them
00:59:22 <Sgeo> elliott, a place bitcoin related, by any chance?
00:59:35 <Sgeo> ais523, extremist sedevacantist Catholic in #jesus
00:59:52 <elliott> Sgeo: no, though i've seen him pop up there too.
00:59:58 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure what sedevacantist means; and I'm not sure I want to find out either
01:00:03 <elliott> isn't luke-jr one of the "saner" ones in #jesus
01:00:21 <Sgeo> elliott, um, there are worse, but I don't tally him in the "sane" people
01:00:34 <elliott> "Sedevacantism (derived from the Latin words meaning "empty chair" [1]) is the position, held by a minority of Traditionalist Catholics,[2][3] that the present occupant of the papal see is not truly Pope and that, for lack of a valid Pope, the see has been vacant since the death of either Pope Pius XII in 1958 or Pope John XXIII in 1963. Some sedevacantists claim that the vacancy goes back further."
01:00:53 <Sgeo> brainproxy ^peter^ and ... one other, I think
01:01:03 <ais523> elliott: I'm trying to work out why that would matter atm
01:01:14 <ais523> which probably implies I don't know enough about Christianity
01:01:17 <elliott> ais523: does theology normally matter?
01:01:27 <elliott> popes can declare all sorts of stuff and you're meant to like them
01:01:29 <monqy> does it have something to do with the pope being infallible
01:01:33 <monqy> the pope's infallible right
01:01:37 <monqy> I don't know my stuff
01:01:45 <Sgeo> monqy, only on certain specific issues and when he says so, iirc
01:01:53 <Sgeo> (Erm, that's an intersection and)
01:02:02 <oerjan> the infallibility is older than that though?
01:02:10 <ais523> hmm, if the pope is infallible, does that mean you can determine whether someone's the pope by whether they make a mistake?
01:02:22 <monqy> new popes aren't infallible because they aren't popes
01:02:29 <elliott> ais523: no, they explicitly declare when they're being infallible
01:02:41 <elliott> "Papal infallibility is a dogma of the Catholic Church which states that, by action of the Holy Spirit, the Pope is preserved from even the possibility of error[1] when in his official capacity he solemnly declares or promulgates to the universal Church a dogmatic teaching on faith or morals. It is also taught that the Holy Spirit works in the body of the Church, as sensus fidelium, to ensure that dogmatic teachings proclaimed to be infallible wi
01:02:41 <elliott> ll be received by all Catholics. This dogma, however, does not state that the pope cannot sin in his own personal life nor that he is necessarily free of error, even when speaking in his official capacity, outside the specific contexts in which the dogma applies."
01:02:58 <ais523> hmm, does this mean I can prove I'm not the pope by declaring myself infallible and then lying?
01:03:27 * ais523 wonders why he would ever need to prove himself not the pope
01:03:42 <elliott> it has to be on a matter of dogma
01:03:45 <elliott> so "lying" is pretty hard to define
01:04:03 <ais523> I could contradict myself?
01:04:05 <monqy> try contradicting another infallible dogma
01:04:30 <elliott> ais523: have you even read the Bible?
01:04:47 <ais523> elliott: many parts of it, yes
01:04:53 <elliott> Sgeo: "This user favors absolute monarchy." "This user wants a philosopher king." "This user believes the separation of church and state is heresy."
01:04:56 <ais523> I don't think I've read every word in the whole thing, though
01:04:58 <elliott> Sgeo: agree w/ yr not tallying
01:05:58 <monqy> philosopher king? itidus21?
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02:30:18 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Apr 5 03:30:12
02:30:19 <itidus21> oh luke-jr.. he ops in a channel i frequent
02:38:40 <itidus21> monqy: theres several meanings of philosopher.. i fall more into the eccentric bum sense of the word
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03:02:35 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Apr 5 04:02:28
03:03:11 <shachaf> My IRC client is breaking my non-BMP Unicode.
03:04:16 <elliott> shachaf: Unicode has 65536 characters.
03:04:19 <kmc> you mean Unicode Big Endian?
03:04:21 <elliott> You're thinking of -- yes.
03:04:37 <elliott> Most operating systems don't support that.
03:05:13 <elliott> kmc: Did you know it's called Unicode Big Endian because it's bigger than standard Unicode?
03:05:22 <kmc> but which end is bigger?!?!?
03:05:40 <kmc> itidus21 are you like diogenes
03:05:50 <elliott> kmc: No, "endian" is the technical term for the space in which the characters are addressed.
03:05:57 <kmc> diogenes was an eccentric bum
03:06:01 <kmc> he was perhaps the original troll of all history
03:06:07 <itidus21> kmc: diogenes was somewhere in the intersection of the venn diagram
03:06:10 <elliott> There's also Unicode Little Endian, which is only 12 bits, for embedded devices.
03:06:31 <itidus21> i don't actually do the thinking and analyzing side of philosophy
03:06:36 <kmc> they don't need embedded devices in china right
03:06:48 <kmc> it's all egg rolls and conical paper hats
03:07:10 -!- elly has left.
03:07:36 <kmc> means ur stoned
03:08:07 <elliott> kmc: My understanding is that the Chinese just rip off people's esoteric RISC CPU designs all day.[1]
03:08:13 <elliott> 1. http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Oerjan#Who.27s_the_anal-retentive_one.3F
03:08:23 <elliott> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
03:08:30 <elliott> Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply. See Terms of use for details.
03:08:34 <elliott> Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., a non-profit organization.
03:08:43 <kmc> i wish i could find that picture of a bunch of japanese businessmen on the subway and one sad lookin white dude in a conical hat
03:09:11 <kmc> i think it used to be at the top of ED's page for "Weeaboo"
03:10:15 <kmc> "It has been decided that the contents of this wiki should be public domain."
03:10:23 <kmc> too bad there's no such thing
03:10:49 <kmc> or rather, you can decide it *should* be public domain, but the only way to make it happen is to die and wait 100 years
03:11:38 <elliott> kmc: see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Copyrights
03:11:47 <elliott> we use CC0 these days, previously Creative Commons' previous public domain dedication
03:11:59 <elliott> it has a rather comprehensive license to use for jurisdictions where you can't release works into the public domain
03:12:29 <shachaf> To quote elliott: "(BTW, I always wondered how the Asian and Chinese people do any work with computers, given that the ASCII character set doesn't even include any characters in their alphabet...)"
03:12:30 <itidus21> kmc: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_WPL5zaKzjqc/TU-E_8WY6hI/AAAAAAAAADw/lAmCit-uHEM/s1600/100.JPG
03:12:34 <kmc> i've been wondering if i should license my code as CC0, or some other very permissive license
03:12:40 <elliott> shachaf: You removed the quote marks!
03:12:48 <elliott> You just used a colon as your quote mark.
03:13:07 <elliott> (full disclosure, the license was less waterproof before i took over, technically... but it was still there)
03:13:10 <shachaf> My treachery knows no bounds.
03:13:18 <elliott> (since CC's old public domain thing didn't include a license, we had our own pretty lousy one)
03:13:33 <elliott> kmc: yeah i've been tempted to just license all my (hypothetical) code as CC0
03:13:35 <shachaf> To quote elliott: "Wait... I thought Unicode was still an experimental prototype? Since when does it work in the real world??"
03:13:50 <elliott> kmc: i tend to just go with BSD or MIT because of peer pressure :'(
03:13:52 <kmc> it doesn't actually work in the real world
03:13:55 <kmc> we all have ASCII privilege
03:14:58 <elliott> shachaf: What is that nonsense? Speak words!
03:16:02 <elliott> ללמוד אנגלית ו / או לחזור לארצך ו / או ללמד אותי איך הקלד את הסמלים האלה
03:17:03 <elliott> shachaf: What did I just say?
03:17:28 <shachaf> elliott: That last bit seems to say "soft the donkey gelatin"
03:17:47 <shachaf> Maybe it means "the softness of the donkey" or something?
03:18:01 <elliott> shachaf: No, I typed in "soft donkey gelatin".
03:18:05 <elliott> I'm glad it translated correctly.
03:18:23 <elliott> What was the line before that?
03:19:29 <shachaf> "to learn English and / or to return to your country and / or to teach me type these symbols"
03:19:41 <shachaf> "to learn English and / or to return to your country and / or to teach me how type these symbols"
03:19:52 <shachaf> Translating grammatical errors is hard. :-(
03:20:45 <elliott> shachaf: כיצד לפתור את הבעיה לפיה דייג לא יכול לגרש את אשתו עד המעטפה תכנות מפסיק לחשוב על בעיה עם הקודים, שבה ולכן סוג חדש של שכמיות עם כירופרקטור כנה?
03:22:37 <shachaf> elliott: I'm just going to paste that into Google Translate and give you the response.
03:22:42 <shachaf> "How to solve the problem that the fisherman can not divorce his wife to the programming envelope stops to think about a problem with the codes, so that a new type of ponchos with honest chiropractor?"
03:22:50 <elliott> shachaf: But I already did that!
03:22:53 <elliott> I want the authentic native translation.
03:24:19 <itidus21> kmc: oh yeah.. i didnt explain my link above.. i found the weeaboo pic http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_WPL5zaKzjqc/TU-E_8WY6hI/AAAAAAAAADw/lAmCit-uHEM/s1600/100.JPG
03:25:12 <shachaf> elliott: Hmm, it's an interesting task to come up with edge cases that when translated en->he->en naïvely yield a completely different output from the original input.
03:25:16 <shachaf> For example, "to a thing".
03:26:05 <elliott> shachaf: הנתיחה שלאחר המוות המצטיין המאיה אקסיומה אמידה מואצת שפך מסוגל אמפתי חול
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03:26:45 <elliott> kmc: הנתיחה שלאחר המוות המצטיין המאיה אקסיומה אמידה מואצת שפך מסוגל אמפתי חול
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03:27:34 <elliott> I get the feeling shachaf is ignoring me.
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03:28:25 <itidus21> The searches I used to find it were, webpage search: encyclopedia dramatica weeaboo, weeaboo.. then image searches: weeaboo, weeaboo subway ,weeaboo sitting ,weeaboo contrast, weeaboo seated
03:28:27 <elliott> kmc: Do you think shachef forgot that wonderful portrait already? :(
03:28:31 <monqy> יש לי הרגשה שחף מתעלם אליוט.
03:28:59 <elliott> monqy: the gull ignores me yes
03:29:05 <kmc> i don't know hebrew
03:29:10 <elliott> shachaf: How do you pronounce "shachaf"?
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03:29:21 <shachaf> elliott: I pronounce it שחף.
03:29:22 <elliott> That's how I pronounce it.
03:29:28 <elliott> That's not helpful. That's literally what you always say.
03:29:32 <kmc> itidus21, that is not the weeaboo picture
03:29:37 <shachaf> The "ch" isn't a "ch" as in "chair".
03:29:39 <kmc> it's rather a photo of an anime style robot
03:29:40 <elliott> kmc: How do you pronounce shachaf?
03:29:43 <shachaf> It's more like "ch" as in "Bach".
03:29:46 <kmc> elliott, incorrectly
03:29:49 <elliott> kmc: How don't you pronounce shachaf?
03:29:52 <elliott> shachaf: No! Fuck! I hate that ch.
03:30:01 <elliott> shachaf: The closest thing to my surname in Lojban has one of those in it.
03:30:05 <elliott> I can't fucking pronounce it. My own name!
03:30:17 <shachaf> elliott: No, the Lojban one is velar; mine is uvular.
03:30:22 <itidus21> kmc: its a guy with a raiden hat in a train sitting across from a businessman.. wires must have crossed somewhere
03:30:31 <elliott> That means nothing to me! Is it easier to pronounce?
03:30:44 <monqy> I tried translated "I have a feeling that Shachaf ignores Elliott." but I got "I have a feeling that Eliot ignores gull."
03:30:44 <kmc> yes that is the picture i would like to see
03:30:56 <monqy> eliot do not ignore gull
03:31:02 <shachaf> elliott: No, harder (for me).
03:31:08 <shachaf> elliott: Probably easier for a Russian speaker.
03:31:10 <kmc> maybe you can upload it to imgur?
03:31:12 <itidus21> sorry kmc http://chanarchive.org/content/67_cgl/1993599/1248574696623.jpg
03:31:23 <kmc> thank you itidus21
03:31:25 <itidus21> that other one was a cut and paste mistake
03:31:31 <elliott> kmc: Did you see my portrait of shachef? http://ompldr.org/vZDhvag
03:31:46 <monqy> that's a good portrait
03:31:59 <shachaf> monqy: It's hard to explain exactly how it got mistranslated.
03:32:03 <elliott> shachaf: But is the Shh-a part right?
03:32:22 <shachaf> monqy: The main part is that you're missing a couple of prepositions.
03:32:48 <shachaf> elliott: The "a" is a simple short sound, as in "cup" or something.
03:32:53 <shachaf> The emphasis is on the first syllable.
03:32:56 <kmc> i saw it elliott
03:32:58 <shachaf> The "sh" is a "sh", I think.
03:33:15 <shachaf> I'm not sure whether it's a ш or a щ.
03:33:29 <shachaf> Because that looks like ש.
03:33:49 <kmc> shachaf, where did your ancestors live?
03:34:24 <shachaf> kmc: Quite a lot of places!
03:34:33 <shachaf> Like Finland. A bunch of my ancestors lived in Finland.
03:35:38 <elliott> shachaf: Let's settle this once and for all:
03:35:58 <elliott> shachaf: http://ompldr.org/vZDlrdg/shachef.wav
03:36:24 <monqy> shachaf shachaf shachaf
03:37:24 <elliott> Oh, hey, I can fix that weird artifacting.
03:37:25 <kmc> woo-ooo woo-ooooo oo-wah-oooo oo-wah-oooo-oo
03:37:32 <kmc> woo-ooo woo-ooooo oo-wah-oooo oo-wah-oooo-oo
03:37:33 <kmc> woo-ooo woo-ooooo oo-wah-oooo oo-wah-oooo-oo
03:37:33 <kmc> shachaf shachaf
03:37:58 <itidus21> ponders whether the verb skinning on an application is a relic of quake-1 terminology
03:38:00 <shachaf> elliott: Is that audio file just silence?
03:38:33 <shachaf> Oh, no, my volume buttons are just broken.
03:39:11 <elliott> shachaf: Can you play ``FLAC files''?
03:39:22 <shachaf> elliott: You have a very mechanical-sounding voice.
03:39:34 <kmc> my name is linus torvalds and i pronounce linux as "linux"
03:39:46 <shachaf> I thought it said "hello, this is ..."
03:41:12 <elliott> shachaf: http://ompldr.org/vZDlreQ/shachef.flac Now with 100% less artifacts and 0% less mechanism
03:41:48 <shachaf> elliott: ...Is that the same file encoded as FLAC?
03:44:00 <elliott> shachaf: OK, I'm pulling your leg. Here's what my *real* voice sounds like: http://ompldr.org/vZDlreg/shachefraw.flac
03:45:24 <elliott> I think shachaf doesn't like my real voice.
03:46:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: monqy: You don't judge me, right?
03:48:42 <monqy> it now all makes sense
03:49:32 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Apr 5 04:49:26
03:50:28 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, no, you just sound like a normal English pansy.
03:50:37 <elliott> http://ompldr.org/vZDlsMg bye reddit
03:50:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Is that about shachefraw.flac or shachef.flac?
03:51:24 <Phantom_Hoover> No, it's about all the other voice samples you've posted.
03:52:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Uh, there was one more!
03:52:05 <elliott> Also, I meant "which one".
03:52:12 <elliott> Oh, you weren't being sarcastic.
03:52:23 <elliott> shachef.flac is the sound of an English warrior, okay.
04:03:13 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Apr 5 05:03:07
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05:24:36 <shachaf> elliott: Are you reading this?
05:25:04 <shachaf> elliott: Sometimes I get sick of the "teach by typing examples into lambdabot" method of #haskell pedagogy.
05:25:39 <shachaf> Especially in the cases when you could give one simple explanation but instead give a dozen lines of small lambdabot examples which explain less and which the asker couldn't have come up with anyway.
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05:30:59 <itidus21> thats the haskell culture. :-D
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05:32:23 <kmc> sometimes it's appropriate though
05:33:03 <itidus21> yeah it's not really a language one studies through the normal channels.. such as a teach yourself book
05:33:04 <shachaf> People go overboard, though.
05:33:23 <kmc> "teach yourself C in 20 minutes" books are total shit
05:33:35 <kmc> as for books in general, a fair number of people do start with LYAH or RWH
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05:33:47 <shachaf> kmc: I'm pretty sure that if I read one of those books right now, I would know C reasonably well by the time I was done.
05:33:55 <kmc> itidus21, do you know any haskell? have you tried learning it?
05:34:00 <kmc> istr that everything you say about haskell is wrong
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05:35:42 <itidus21> i need to be allowed some leeway to get my ignorant reflex comments out of my system
05:37:53 <itidus21> what this room has taught me is that i never learned about computation from anywhere
05:39:14 <itidus21> I was exposed to assembly, basic, pascal, c, c++, java, html, actionscript .. but still not really learn anything about computation
05:40:11 <itidus21> it's like theres this whole tier of books which teaches people how to use variables and arrange text printing statements in different languages
05:41:15 <itidus21> maybe i just wasn't very resourceful growing up
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05:42:25 <pikhq> Nah, almost all books on programming are just really pointlessly simple.
05:43:38 <itidus21> sadder is that computer science degrees at least here seem to only concern themselves with that basic level
05:43:41 <kmc> it's almost like programming isn't just a matter of knowing n languages!
05:44:44 <itidus21> i'm sure it helps that computers are faster
05:44:51 <itidus21> i'd like to see haskell running on an 8086
05:45:14 <shachaf> itidus21: The lambda calculus existed long before the 8086 did.
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05:48:15 <kmc> i don't think lisp performance on 60's mainframes was particularly good compared to the alternatives
05:49:16 <itidus21> I wonder if 8086 ever did anything important.
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05:51:10 <itidus21> my questions are mostly making sense of "why" i have seen so many languages (and btw im a horrible coder in all of them) and why i am clueless about computation
05:51:17 <kmc> it's almost like programming isn't just a matter of knowing n languages!
05:51:35 <kmc> have you considered following a reputable school's CS curriculum?
05:51:39 <kmc> MIT has a ton of materials online
05:51:58 <itidus21> well.. i am also examining it historically
05:52:04 <kmc> 6.004 is a lot of fun
05:52:17 <kmc> so is 6.828
05:52:18 <itidus21> why when growing up i learned this ridiculous style of programming
05:52:37 <itidus21> and never really quite questioned any of it -- that was 1 mistake
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05:52:56 <itidus21> it was that childhood naivety that these things were just magically packaged up and did cool stuff
05:53:26 <kmc> i mean depending on what you mean by "magically"
05:54:24 <itidus21> i mean, i didn't care who made them.. i revered the mysterious programming god as a kind of celebrity
05:55:03 <itidus21> like there was vortex out of which programming languages were emerging
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05:56:13 <itidus21> uh.. also.. i didn't think many programming languages existed..
05:56:29 <itidus21> i thought that it was such a monumental effort to make each one that only a handful were made
05:56:51 <itidus21> or that everyone all just used this handful of languages
05:57:14 <itidus21> im not sure if i actually thought that
05:59:23 <itidus21> something to take from this is that even if you feel dumb, compared to me you're really quite smart about this stuff
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06:01:23 <itidus21> nothing about qbasic 1.0 ever purported programming to be difficult. i didn't know what i was getting into. although it was obvious the apps i was using were not made with basic
06:03:14 <itidus21> in closing: one of my breakthroughs was.. after hardcoding a call to a function like circle(20,20),5,2 .. i realized i could substitute variables for the position and i was struck by the power of this subtlelty
06:06:15 <itidus21> i don't think i can really express succinctly the fact that i expected to find here people at the same intelligence as me about programming.. theres no other way to put it how much of a shock it is
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06:07:14 <itidus21> i expected to find guys like NSQX and languages like lolcode
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07:11:26 <Sgeo> "The spec stipulates that any letter not among these should be ignored.
07:11:34 <Sgeo> What about non-letters not specified there
07:12:37 <Sgeo> Well, the original announcement says the correct thing
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08:48:49 <oerjan> <shachaf> It's more like "ch" as in "Bach". <-- /me practices
08:49:07 <oerjan> that's pretty cool, actually
08:53:41 <oerjan> wait, uvular? the german is also velar :(
08:54:35 <oerjan> sadly, that doesn't make it even cooler
08:55:24 <shachaf> oerjan: I'm not sure about "back".
08:55:30 <shachaf> Uvular is done with the uvula.
08:55:38 <shachaf> I don't actually know how velar works.
08:56:02 <oerjan> well, i tried pronouncing it like a "h", but with more friction
08:57:29 <shachaf> Er... Where does the friction come from?
09:00:01 <oerjan> hm wait the german r is uvular, so just unvoice that
09:00:36 <shachaf> Right, an unvoiced uvular r would work, more or less.
09:01:13 <oerjan> oh, "According to Kohler,[7] the German ach-Laut is further differentiated into two allophones, [x] and [χ]:"
09:01:22 <oerjan> the latter being the uvular one
09:01:46 <oerjan> and Bach supposedly has that
09:02:17 <oerjan> i don't think my german pronunciation is that precise :)
09:03:54 <oerjan> some norwegian dialects have uvular r, but not mine
09:05:48 <oerjan> ok h is glottal, so that's too far back
09:06:06 <shachaf> What does it feel like having the WRONG NORWEGIAN DIALECT?
09:06:11 <shachaf> WRONG PERSON. Who is WRONG.
09:06:48 <shachaf> oerjan: Do you know what the uvular one sounds like?
09:07:38 <oerjan> although when i try to fake a bergen dialect, it really sounds fake
09:07:59 <oerjan> though possibly not because of the r
09:13:59 * oerjan realizes his german probably sounds just as fake, he just cannot hear it that well
09:42:59 <Jafet> It sounds like your Bach is worse than your byte.
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11:42:57 <Taneb> What do people think of this David Catt person?
11:45:04 <oerjan> he'll wear out eventually. even zzo38 did :P
11:45:47 <oerjan> well, i guess he's putting up things he's already made, anyway
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11:49:48 <oerjan> BUT ALL IN ALL HE'S A FINE AND UPSTANDING ESOLANGER
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11:51:38 <oerjan> <oerjan> BUT ALL IN ALL HE'S A FINE AND UPSTANDING ESOLANGER
11:52:06 <Ngevd> I really need to find somewhere with a better wifi connection
11:53:01 <Ngevd> Also, hello david_werecat, I like your VB.Net quine
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13:14:00 <david_werecat> Yes, although I perfer their first album to their new one.
13:14:50 <oklopol> i think both have their moments, but i suppose i listen to the first one more
13:15:32 <oklopol> what did you use for these?
13:17:15 <david_werecat> Sometime, I'm going to post some of my actual guitar work; although the drums will still be done in Finale.
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13:17:49 <oklopol> i seem to be too lazy to ever buy something i can actually record my guitar playing with
13:19:23 <oklopol> i have never ever heard of that
13:23:46 <david_werecat> You can find a lot of people posting demos on there.
13:25:17 <oklopol> oh the page with your music was indeed your soundcloud userpage.
13:26:24 <david_werecat> Sometime this summer, I'll probably have a full demo EP done to post there.
13:31:11 <oklopol> can you play the stuff on your page?
13:33:13 <david_werecat> Yes. Although, I wouldn't suggest playing "SuperEarRapePlus" for obvious reasons. Also, pause at the end of "Technical Fragment", otherwise the ear rape starts directly after.
13:33:42 <oklopol> did you understand that i meant whether you can play them on the guitar?
13:34:53 <david_werecat> I just can't do sweeps that well, but everything else is okay.
13:35:36 <oklopol> i can sweep just fine except for that fact that people usually define sweeping as being able to sweep at 20 notes per second.
13:36:40 <oklopol> i can do two octaves of the minor scale up and down in a bit over a second, so something like 10 notes per second
13:37:32 <david_werecat> Cool. I'm almost up to that speed, although I don't practice enough.
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13:38:22 <oklopol> i have a 7 string in GC#GC#GC#G, buying an 8 string, gonna use fourths between strings for that
13:38:35 <oklopol> well actually i have it already, but not at home yet
13:40:22 <david_werecat> Very nice. I don't have anything that fancy, just a normal 6 string in drop B. What type of guitar is it?
13:40:59 <oklopol> ibanez, but i don't know much more... :P
13:41:10 <oklopol> i mostly just care about the number of strings.
13:42:02 <ion> URL? “<oklopol> david_werecat: nice music”
13:46:33 <david_werecat> Almost ready to release my new language "PP_TIBSA"
13:51:32 <oklopol> so what's this tascam thing's exact name? i torrented something but it doesn't seem to be right. really it would be enough if i had a way to use my webcam's mic, windows sound recorder isn't that great.
13:53:15 <oklopol> the sound gets distorted after a second or so, some kind of autocorrection.
13:53:41 <david_werecat> Tascam is a device that allows you to plug an amp directly into the computer. I use Audacity for all my editing and recording.
13:54:10 <oklopol> makes more sense, but since there was a program called that, i figured you might mean that.
13:55:50 <david_werecat> It actually comes with a professional recording software included in the package. I can't remember the name of that software, though.
13:56:51 <oklopol> it's just that i know every mic can record decently enough for my purposes, since the first second or so sounds right, and then for some reason everything becomes filtered.
13:59:58 <david_werecat> Maybe try checking in the Windows audio mixer. The microphone probably has an option to turn that off.
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14:04:32 <oklopol> here's a sample http://www.vjn.fi/lul/wtf.wma the song is called bashing the guitar at random to get a sample
14:04:47 <oklopol> the first chord sounds like a guitar.
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14:05:52 <oklopol> and i can't find an option like that anywhere
14:06:37 <oklopol> at least under the name make an electric guitar sound like it's being played under water
14:08:36 <david_werecat> I think on my computer, I found it in the Realtek control panel.
14:09:10 <oklopol> i can't find anything of use there
14:12:52 <oklopol> that's really all i'd need, since i usually only record stuff so i can better hear my mistakes.
14:14:35 <david_werecat> I'm still looking, it seems that Realtek doesn't handle the webcam mic...
14:16:50 <oklopol> i checked, with the obvious results.
14:18:49 <david_werecat> I know it's somewhere, I just can't seem to find it right now...
14:21:11 <david_werecat> There is an option under the Realtek control panel -> Microphone that says "Noise Canelation", but it's grayed out on my computer
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14:26:32 <david_werecat> The best advice that I have right now it to right click on the speaker icon, select input devices, double click on the mic, then go to enhancments and turn off any options like DC Offset Cancelation, Noise Cancelation and Acoustic Echo Supression. Also, try setting the mic level to 100% and the volume boost to +30db
14:28:12 <david_werecat> Also, try setting the quality to 2 channel, 16bit, 192000hz (studio quality)
14:39:07 <oerjan> people do such stuff on the phone these days?
14:52:42 <oklopol> i have something called Realtek HD audio manager
14:53:13 <oklopol> is that the right place, because i can't really find anything for input devices there :/
14:53:58 <ion> Tennis http://youtu.be/QBqBCMpn4ZE
14:54:07 <david_werecat> The speaker icon to right-click is the one for the Windows volume manager, not the Realtek one.
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14:58:16 <oklopol> sound -> recording -> mic -> advanced has something called default format, but i can only go up to dvd quality :/
15:00:22 <david_werecat> It doesn't make that much of a difference. DVD quality is still good quality, generally it takes an audiophile to tell if something was recorded at 48000hz or 192000hz.
15:00:43 <oklopol> yeah i just want it to sound roughly like a guitar
15:01:34 <david_werecat> Was there an option under the enhancments tab to turn effects on and off?
15:02:15 -!- elliott has joined.
15:04:03 <oklopol> i can't find one anywhere, at least
15:04:30 <oerjan> <david_werecat> [...] generally it takes an audiophile to tell if something was recorded at 48000hz or 192000hz. <-- dibs on the "did that pass a double blind test" comment
15:05:14 <oerjan> (i think that's sort of obligatory in this channel)
15:05:56 <elliott> audiophiles can't distinguish 48khz and 192khz, sorry.
15:06:23 <elliott> http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html if you don't believe me.
15:06:47 <elliott> oerjan: ("ABX test" is the appropriate lingo here)
15:08:05 <elliott> oerjan: (play A, play B, then play randomly from A and B several times, identifying which one it is each time) (obviously the picking is automated)
15:09:39 <david_werecat> True. I do agree that it's kind of pointless to have settings like that. Although, with 192khz I can make a dog whistle that's too "powerful" for any normal speaker to handle it
15:10:10 <oerjan> so basically it takes an audiophile dog. got it.
15:10:15 <elliott> more than pointless, 192khz is actually slightly worse as far as fidelity goes :)
15:12:23 <ion> Recording and processing at a higher spatial and bit resolution might give you more room for various kinds of processing even if you downsample it to something like CD quality in the end.
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15:14:08 <elliott> ion: Yes, the article covers that.
15:15:15 <david_werecat> Maybe, although most microphones don't handle that kind of resolution so often times it only makes sense to record at maximum what your input can handle.
15:23:22 <elliott> 14:53:58: <ion> Tennis http://youtu.be/QBqBCMpn4ZE
15:23:34 <elliott> ion: You have no idea how much it costs us to import dinosaurs each year for Wimbledown.
15:25:10 <ion> I can imagine.
15:25:38 <elliott> Wimbledown is the Australian spinoff.
15:26:36 -!- cheater_ has joined.
15:26:40 <elliott> Ah, the best part about that article I linked is seeing everyone's inane responses to it.
15:26:48 <oerjan> yeah you cannot import dinosaurs to australia
15:26:49 <elliott> "Going from 16 to 20 bit is like going from vinyl to CD. Remember that every bit more represents twice the information, so going from 16 to 18 you'll get 4 times more depth."
15:26:59 <ion> I thought it was the version for people suffering from Down syndrome.
15:27:16 <ion> elliott: haha
15:27:58 <elliott> "What I can tell you guys is that there is a huge difference between 16/44.1 and 24/192. 16/44.1 just doesn't sound right. When you mix a project (usually I work with 24/96 kHz) you have a sonic depth of the elements, let's say a voice vs. reverberation; finally you get a mix down which is your "Master" but as soon as you convert it to 16/44.1 your work goes to the trash, you lose much of the program you had. The voice will get 'into your face' a
15:27:58 <elliott> nd you will lose a lot of the reverb you had, you don't get things in the space they were. [...] On regards of the sampling frequency 192 kHz do sound softer, it's much more natural but unfortunately it does take more resources. 96kHz has a good trade off."
15:28:32 <elliott> Mostly it's just "<I don't understand the Nyquist theorem>" over and over again, though.
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15:29:23 <ion> It would be so easy to do double-blind tests of your own for stuff like that.
15:29:50 <ion> I suppose they don’t want to do a test that potentially invalidates such a strong belief.
15:29:55 <elliott> You can't *test* *feeling*.
15:30:29 <elliott> I think it's just arrogance.
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15:41:38 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: It's also "I like big numbers" over and over again.
15:42:25 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: I believe one of the "4G" services here is secretly WiMAX.
15:43:00 <oklopol> i hear it's very important that the cables of your speakers don't intersect themselves, because the inductive currents are clearly audible
15:43:39 <elliott> "Did you know... that carrying the body parts of your dismembered mother to a refrigerator is hardly Soft & Cuddly?" -- Wikipedia's main page as of some hours ago, displaying astounding editorial judgement
15:46:11 <itidus21> ok, someone tell me what i was trying to think of but hit a dead end.. if you have 2 points with n dimensions, but you represent those points by taking < n dimensions and draw a line between them
15:47:15 <itidus21> like if you had point 5,3,2 and point 8,1,4 .. and you instead interpreted them as point 5,3 and point 8,4
15:47:23 <itidus21> it's not very interesting is it...
15:48:16 <elliott> You have to wonder who wrote that thinking "yes, I want thousands of people to see this".
15:49:01 <itidus21> someone quite evil i would say
15:49:07 <RocketJSquirrel> The funny thing is that in the context of the link, it's not even really spam, it's just not phrased in a neutral fashion.
15:49:49 <mroman_> do you guys know a compiler from some intermediate language to lambda calculus?
15:49:54 <itidus21> someone who has been reading too much psychology texts and wanted to mess with as many heads as possible
15:49:57 <oklopol> itidus21: what about that?
15:50:03 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I wonder if it was originally scheduled for April 1st or something
15:50:03 <mroman_> some intermediate language with loops, ifs and basic arithmetic
15:50:23 <elliott> mroman_: You'll have a better time finding such a language if you don't require imperative features such as loops
15:50:23 <oklopol> that's called a linear projection, basically what linear algebra studies
15:50:31 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: The relevant entry and link is still there, I think somebody just decided they wanted to rephrase it in their own style *shrugs*
15:50:42 <itidus21> oklopol: well usually when i have a thought like that, i'm sniffing onto an actual theory which is very old and worn out
15:50:54 <oklopol> yeah it's called linear algebra
15:51:31 <oklopol> if you want to learn math, that's one of the first things you should study.
15:51:33 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Ohyeah, the article's obviously listed, since DYK lists pretty much anything that is (a) new and (b) not crap, I'm just talking about the blurb :P
15:51:56 <mroman_> elliott: I don't need loops actually
15:52:41 <elliott> mroman_: Well, there's Lazy K's Lazier language, which compiles down to SKI calculus... you just have to replace S, K and I with their definitions.
15:52:43 <mroman_> foo n := if (n > 5): foo (n-1) else: n
15:52:50 <elliott> Also see http://matt.might.net/articles/compiling-up-to-lambda-calculus/
15:52:53 <mroman_> ^- something like that would work to
15:53:08 <elliott> Which compiles a little s-expy lang to lc
15:53:45 <itidus21> oklopol: the first thought was.. in a grid each cell tends to have 4 or 8 neighbours.. and i was thinking.. what if it only had 3 neighbours.. would it represent 2.5 dimensions in a way
15:54:15 <oerjan> itidus21: hexagonal grids have that
15:54:25 <itidus21> and i thought, in a line, each cell tends to have 2 neighbours.. but if it had only 1 neighbour perhaps it is some kind of .5
15:54:45 <oerjan> 3 neighbors for each vertex
15:55:03 <oklopol> right, also the connected graph of 5 elements has that
15:55:05 <itidus21> the latter comment is like a singly linked list
15:55:38 <itidus21> but.. is there a correlation between the number of spatial dimensions and the number of neighbours of a cell
15:56:01 <oerjan> itidus21: there isn't, directly.
15:56:31 <oklopol> itidus21: see oerjan's example, arguably it's still 2d
15:56:38 <oerjan> you need at least to look at how it grows for iterated cases
15:57:11 <oerjan> and i'm not sure whether that works
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15:57:38 <oklopol> if you take a finite amount of generators for the group Z^2, probably you get 2 as dimension if you take a limit of sizes of balls, and adjust nicely.
15:58:43 <mroman_> The set of all typed terms (simple type theory) is not turing complete?
15:58:48 <oklopol> you can make them grow constant times faster by adding generators, but i suppose you get that the size is theta n^2.
15:58:50 <oerjan> well if you assume the distance is the same as shortest path between two points, then you can calculate a hausdorff-like dimension, perhaps
15:59:22 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1173214/how-to-stop-working what a programming question
15:59:23 <oklopol> if we're talking about the dimensions of a grid
15:59:24 <mroman_> As every typed term has a beta normal form
15:59:27 <oerjan> i'm not thinking of groups, i'm thinking of infinite graphs
15:59:41 <oerjan> just consider Z^n as the intuitive example
15:59:43 <ion> elliott: It was removed already. :-(
15:59:54 <itidus21> and streuth knows what i am thinking
15:59:54 <oklopol> well what i said might be a way to define dimension?
16:00:05 <mroman_> Which means, that every algorithm which can be represented in lambda calcalus and we can assign a type to that term terminates?
16:00:14 <oerjan> the number of points at distance <= k grows like Theta(k^n)
16:00:16 <oklopol> d such that for any set of generators, you have that balls are of size theta n^d
16:00:19 <ion> elliott: What was the question?
16:00:27 <ion> in addition to the title
16:00:36 <elliott> I didn't realise mine was the final vote.
16:00:41 <itidus21> im trying to thin about porn now.. to cool down from my mathy confusion
16:00:55 <oklopol> oerjan: well right, that's exactly what i'm saying
16:01:12 * elliott tries to upload it somewhere.
16:01:21 <oklopol> and i guess the question is what kinds of growth rates can appear for groups
16:03:05 <itidus21> as for me, i just had to unburden myself.. having a difficult night
16:03:16 <oklopol> well ejaculation is a good way to do that
16:03:36 <oklopol> but i wonder whether this graph thing has been thought about for hundreds of thousands of years
16:03:55 <oklopol> at least they talk about these groth rates a lot in the CA literature
16:04:11 <oerjan> oklopol: why groups? there is no requirement that the edges of a graph have any group action relating them.
16:04:17 <elliott> ion: wget http://sprunge.us/jSTO -O working.html && xdg-open working.html
16:04:26 <elliott> ion: It... may be a little anticlimatic after that effort.
16:04:28 <oklopol> oerjan: because the question is trivial for graphs?
16:04:32 <elliott> But I wanted to try out the script!
16:04:53 <oklopol> and CA are always run on a group, so when i hear grid, it's a particular group.
16:05:29 <oklopol> so countable finitely generated groups
16:05:34 <oklopol> well countable is implied ofc
16:05:35 <oerjan> um and grids are a subset of graphs, so if it's trivial for graphs...
16:05:54 <oklopol> it's trivial that you can construct any dimension for graphs
16:06:05 <oklopol> by using graphs that aren't f.g. groups.
16:06:27 <elliott> oerjan: More like grads are sabsats of graphs.
16:06:40 <ion> elliott: heh
16:06:56 <oerjan> the graph of the free non-abelian group on 2 generators is pretty clearly infinite dimensional
16:07:15 <oerjan> (it's an infinite branching binary tree, iirc)
16:07:34 <itidus21> i think by 3 neighbours what i had in mind was connect-4 rules
16:07:46 * elliott wonders what the most downvoted deleted question is.
16:08:15 <oklopol> but what i don't know is whether this is well-defined
16:08:32 <oerjan> and in the other direction, finitely generated abelian implies quotient of Z^n, and i suspect quotients cannot increase dimension
16:09:14 <oklopol> well i don't see the need for abelianity
16:09:31 <oerjan> you might look into amenability
16:09:32 <oklopol> at least for CA you usually assume it's either amenable or sometimes just sofic
16:10:25 <oklopol> (sofics contain abelians and residually finite ones)
16:10:36 <oklopol> (and there are no examples of nonsofic f.g. groups)
16:10:46 <oerjan> also, why do i always get caught up in discussions just as i'm becoming too hungry to think clearly -->
16:11:13 <oklopol> i like how we mentioned amenability one second apart
16:12:30 <oklopol> actually iirc there aren't really any examples of nonamenable groups either
16:12:58 <oerjan> erm, the free group on 2 generators...
16:13:24 <oklopol> well i don't even remember the definition of amenability, but i see
16:13:58 <oklopol> well i do seem to recall that the garden of eden theorem is true on amenable groups but not on the free group
16:14:10 <oerjan> i think it was a long-standing, eventually solved problem whether every non-amenable countable discrete group had to contain F_2, i don't quite remember which way the solution went
16:15:09 <oklopol> was it you who solved it though?
16:16:08 -!- juhani has joined.
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16:29:02 <Taneb> What do people think of 0x10c?
16:33:27 <oerjan> in fact i'm not entirely sure it was solved. should look it up...
16:33:58 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan <-- I WAS HUNGRY I SAID
16:34:13 <oerjan> (technically still am)
16:34:29 <oklopol> i proved a lemma about a very specific class of topological groups today!
16:34:46 <Taneb> Hang on, has anyone asked david_werecat the MOST IMPORTANT QUESTIONS?
16:35:01 <oklopol> well it doesn't really require a proof but i stated it
16:35:20 * oerjan swats Taneb for never marking his move in the iwc h&h's -----###
16:35:44 <Taneb> david_werecat, do you live in Hexham?
16:35:57 <oerjan> you're not the only one, but you're the one within swatting distance
16:36:32 <Taneb> It's a town, famous for it's unusually high density of esoteric programmers
16:37:00 <oerjan> david_werecat: it has been established that approximately 91.3% of #esoteric regulars are from either hexham or helsinki.
16:37:41 <shachaf> oerjan: Is your swatula thing always 5'-'3'#'?
16:38:14 <shachaf> Do you type it in by hand each time or do you have some automation to do it?
16:38:23 <oerjan> david_werecat: the approximation may be a _teeny_ bit off
16:39:00 <oerjan> automation, what kind of insane magic is that
16:39:13 <david_werecat> My approximation that 100% of approximations are accurate is probably off too...
16:39:13 <Taneb> (there's 2 from Hexham and 5-ish from Helsinki)
16:39:31 * Taneb has been to Hexham!
16:39:40 <oklopol> Taneb: are you sure about the number for helsinki?
16:39:53 <Taneb> oklopol, no, I cannot
16:40:01 <oklopol> i thought it was two for helsinki
16:40:28 <elliott> fizzie Deewiant atehwa (I think)
16:41:06 <oerjan> those finns, confusing everyone by having more than one town
16:41:19 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least five of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
16:41:23 <oklopol> i also thought ineiros isn't from helsinki
16:42:00 <ineiros> I am now living in Helsinki. Two months ago I was living in Espoo.
16:42:00 <HackEgo> %Փ.ɢ1cs ͉[. .$}.fOgW-uuhݔ~}8pȘ3 $.K܈...P*F,i.a+^BT.1ڛ.%č>"Yۇ!....L3K̩cjr2)8+[#\.kq).;{`.T.wN.3A.95OE.3y'.Y..1PXϔ. q5?qia99.hDǥVKaԲT
16:42:31 <shachaf> I think that said "from Helsinki".
16:42:56 <oerjan> `learn Hexham is a European town. There are five people in Hexham, and at least two of them are in this channel. Ngevd runs the student board.
16:43:12 <elliott> ineiros: More like: EsPOO.
16:43:12 <oerjan> should be close enough.
16:43:47 <Taneb> Of course, for Helsinki to have the same esolanger density as hexham, it would need over 100 esolangers.
16:43:52 <Taneb> fizzie, try harder
16:44:07 <Taneb> Is ion helsinkian?
16:44:19 <oklopol> btw there's another esolanger at our uni, he just doesn't do irc
16:44:36 <oklopol> i just remembered it was someone who started with i
16:44:47 <oklopol> and both ilari and ineiros do, so i assumed he double lives there
16:44:47 <ineiros> (And technically fizzie is not living in Helsinki)
16:45:37 <ineiros> But I think we could count the whole Greater Helsinki.
16:46:32 <oerjan> shachaf: you haven't conquered us _yet_...
16:46:35 <Taneb> Are fizzie and fizziew the same person?
16:46:49 <oklopol> the other is fizzie's wife
16:47:04 <ineiros> Or actually the Helsinki Metropolitan Area. Greater Helsinki refers to an area that is too large.
16:47:05 <oerjan> oh right, fizzie is married (yes it was a shock to me too)
16:47:33 <oklopol> (disclaimer: fizziew may not be fizzie's wife)
16:47:52 <Taneb> It took me ages to figure out oklopol and oklofok are different people
16:48:23 <elliott> Taneb i hate to break it to you but
16:48:26 <ineiros> I believe fizziew is just fizzie's alter ego.
16:49:08 <shachaf> elliott: Are shachaf and shachef different people?
16:49:13 <oklopol> fizzie: btw me and my ex once talked about taking the bus to helsinki, and asking you to be a witness for our marriage and then getting married
16:49:52 <oerjan> elliott: wait, that means shachaf doesn't look like a monkey anyhow?
16:50:05 <oklopol> (the one that visited the channel once)
16:50:33 <shachaf> oerjan: Huh? I'm not the Bonzi BUDDY thing.
16:50:38 <shachaf> oerjan: That's just he background.
16:50:45 <shachaf> oerjan: I'm the multicolored thing in the foreground.
16:50:55 -!- shachef has joined.
16:50:57 <oerjan> shachaf: suuuuuure. hm what was the link again.
16:51:20 <elliott> oerjan: http://ompldr.org/vZDhvag/shachef.png
16:51:33 -!- shachef has quit (Client Quit).
16:51:49 <elliott> oerjan: Based on this photograph: http://slbkbs.org/sb/1.png
16:53:44 * oerjan wonders if _everyone_ gets ben-kiki as the second suggested google completion for shachaf
16:54:54 <shachaf> Nathan van Doorn (@Taneb) is now following you on Twitter!
16:54:56 <oerjan> elliott: um, duh, that's why i asked
16:55:03 <ineiros> Hmm. I think I'll go and watch some burlesque.
16:55:16 <Taneb> shachaf, that is my twitter account!
16:55:18 <shachaf> elliott: I think many other people have that: name.
16:55:36 <shachaf> Why do I even have a Twitter account?
16:55:42 <elliott> shachaf: I refuse to believe more than, like, three people could have a name as silly as "Ben-Kiki".
16:55:58 <shachaf> elliott: And they're all me. :-(
16:58:33 <oklopol> i'm now on page 3 in google, i should probably ask for a raise
16:59:56 <oerjan> oren, that's almost oerjan. maybe i am secretly his father.
17:00:52 <elliott> shachaf: Are you oerjan's son?
17:01:11 <shachaf> elliott: That depends. Does oerjan hate styrofoam?
17:02:16 <elliott> Don't say "styrofoam" I'll hear it aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargjiorjg
17:03:15 <shachaf> elliott: Little-known fact: Pronouncing my name correctly sounds like rubbing styrofoam against styrofoam.
17:03:49 <oklopol> http://www.retroprogramming.com/2009/07/perverse-code-deviant-forth.html is this me?
17:04:01 <oerjan> shachaf: your father gave you a name he hates?
17:04:16 <oklopol> i don't remember that at all :D
17:04:16 <shachaf> oerjan: Are you my father?
17:04:50 <oklopol> seriously i've been sleep proving or something
17:04:53 <oerjan> shachaf: it's _somewhat_ unlikely based only on name resemblance
17:05:18 <oerjan> but hey, transliterating to and from hebrew can do weird things
17:06:35 <shachaf> Did you know "John" is derived from a name that has the same letter as the "ch" in my name?
17:07:01 <oerjan> something like yochanan, yes
17:07:31 * oerjan remember that from our baby names book
17:07:32 <shachaf> What does "Ørjan" mean, anyway?
17:07:56 <oerjan> would you believe it's the same as "George"? :P
17:08:10 <oerjan> (thus meaning "farmer")
17:09:43 <Taneb> George is my middle name
17:09:45 <Taneb> After my great-grandfather, who's middle name was Elliott
17:09:53 <oklopol> sometimes i google "oklopol" and marvel at my genius for hours
17:10:43 <oerjan> oklopol: what happens if you google "oklofok" instead?
17:11:09 <shachaf> elliott: Does "(" have a value?
17:11:39 <shachaf> elliott: If not, why does "2+( 5*3)" have a value?
17:11:52 <oklopol> but at least that one isn't also used by a set of idiots
17:12:10 <oklopol> oklopol is used by a few others, based on google
17:12:22 <Taneb> Apparently there's a racehorse called "Lady Taneb"
17:13:23 <oklopol> oerjan: ooh, so you're yrj in finnish
17:13:47 <oklopol> i'm gonna start calling you that
17:14:32 <oklopol> so it's probably not as common nowadays
17:15:27 <oerjan> well it could have been worse, i could have been named Bent, Odd, Even, Odd-Even,
17:15:44 <oerjan> also i could have been able to not hit return accidentally
17:16:21 <oerjan> (Odd-Even is an _entirely_ plausible norwegian name.)
17:17:14 <oklopol> holy fuck that's be awesome
17:17:34 <shachaf> You can't make a combining character a different colour?
17:17:59 <oerjan> ("By the way, Odd Even is the name all computer nerds joke that they'll name their child.")
17:18:28 <shachaf> oerjan: Did you joke that you'll name your child that?
17:19:00 <oerjan> no. the quote may not be entirely true.
17:19:18 <Taneb> I, for one, have joked about calling my child Telemachus
17:19:32 <shachaf> I, for one, have jokes about calling my child elliott.
17:19:37 * shachaf is secretly elliott's father.
17:20:20 <shachaf> elliott: Make Knuth check his email faster. :-(
17:21:14 <Taneb> My plan to translate my name into Latin is failing...
17:21:55 <Taneb> Translating it via Hebrew gives "dedit"
17:22:08 <Taneb> However, that's a verb
17:22:40 <oerjan> nathanius georgius aculeanus
17:24:21 <elliott> shachaf: Do you want to see something awful?
17:24:26 <elliott> shachaf: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Monad
17:24:29 <oerjan> that's awkward with hebrew names, sometimes they're meanings are verb phrases
17:24:32 <elliott> This is the worst page on the HaskellWiki.
17:25:20 <shachaf> elliott: What's your problem with separating the composition timeline from the execution timeline?
17:25:29 <elliott> Oh, it used to be fine: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/index.php?title=Monad&oldid=33391
17:25:39 <elliott> Then a certain WillNess messed it up over the course of several years: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/index.php?title=Monad&action=history
17:26:12 <shachaf> Who *is* this WillNess person?
17:26:33 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:26:34 <oerjan> elliott: that's just the perfect opportunity to use the edit summary "cleaning up the wilderness"
17:27:58 <shachaf> elliott: Wow, that "composition timeline" thing came up right in their first edit.
17:28:03 <elliott> shachaf: Ohhh, now I remember who that is.
17:28:12 <shachaf> elliott: I hadn't heard "Monads as science-fiction plots" before.
17:28:14 <elliott> It's the guy who asked that really ridiculous Haskell question on SO.
17:28:15 <shachaf> But I guess it makes sense.
17:28:30 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9149183/tail-optimization-guarantee-loop-encoding-in-haskell
17:28:33 <elliott> The real fun is in the comments.
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17:32:06 <oerjan> Taneb: hm maybe a better translation of van Doorn would be Jovianus
17:32:19 <oerjan> looking at the town etymology
17:35:11 <elliott> oerjan: Can you ruthlessly kill anyone who argues definitions with someone trying to teach them the definition they're arguing about?
17:35:12 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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17:35:29 <shachaf> elliott: "Then Monads serve to separate the pure from the pure in one big holiday celebration after another."
17:36:23 <oerjan> elliott: that may be difficult
17:37:05 <shachaf> elliott: What if YOU'RE MISLEADING?
17:37:32 <shachaf> elliott "Miss Leading" HIRD
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17:43:41 <oerjan> oklopol: finally got to looking it up, it's right here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amenable_group#Non-examples
17:45:18 -!- Taneb has joined.
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17:55:00 <fizzie> oerjan: What do you mean "shock"?
17:56:02 <oerjan> like, this, you know, this channel, people, you know, are sort of, you know
17:56:08 <oerjan> GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEKS
17:57:32 <fizzie> Well, it's not really my fault, I was sort of not the person with the initiative.
17:57:36 <elliott> (diff | hist) . . N Dog Training: How it works; 16:53 . . (+1,151) . . Jacksmithan (Talk | contribs | block) (Created page with "[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_training Dog training] is the process of teaching a dog to perform behaviors in response to certain commands. The most common behaviors are "...")
17:57:41 <elliott> Finally! I can find out Dog Training: How it works.
17:58:08 <oerjan> elliott: you realize that's a _very_ plausible esolang name
17:59:10 <fizzie> Even the quoted snipped starts out like an esolang description. I mean, "behaviors in response to certain commands" and so on.
17:59:11 <oerjan> it will be a hybrid of Chef, Zombie, Hunter, Homespring and Snack.
17:59:54 <oerjan> i guess there's some redundancy there.
18:00:12 -!- david_werecat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:00:31 <oerjan> fizzie: hm maybe we should use that as basis
18:00:59 <oerjan> ah yes. and Karel the Robot.
18:04:45 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: häivyn).
18:06:05 -!- augur has joined.
18:09:03 <elliott> http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/128320/problem-for-run-applet-using-html
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18:12:48 <RocketJSquirrel> Looks basically just like a generic "I'm incompetent and secondarily too incompetent to know where to complain about being incompetent"
18:13:08 <elliott> Yes, but the formatting! The formatting!
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18:15:46 <oerjan> does stackoverflow have preview, i forget
18:17:04 -!- monqy has joined.
18:17:19 <oerjan> ah, then i shall not put them on my list of sites to utterly destroy when become world dictator. well not for that reason, anyway.
18:19:12 <elliott> you're ok with destroying sites but not people?
18:21:17 <oerjan> well the owners of wordpress _might_ want to hide early.
18:24:27 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:29:09 <elliott> oerjan: why is 1.19 not out yet.
18:29:32 <oklopol> could one of you give me a couple of thousand euros
18:31:06 <oerjan> hm btw i just looked at the hello world list, in my browser those table of content links that are before stars in the 2L program are unclickable.
18:31:18 <oklopol> three different institutions have apparently decided that i don't need money to stay alive.
18:31:37 <elliott> oerjan: i have already spent one day this month working around bugs in your out-of-date browser.
18:31:48 <elliott> do you really want me to spend another?
18:32:11 <oerjan> elliott: well does it look ok in yours, at a window size too small to fit them side by side?
18:32:58 <elliott> wait you mean a window size so small that the stars overlap the TOC?
18:33:10 <oerjan> yes. my usual size btw.
18:34:01 <oerjan> it's just a little narrower than full screen anyway...
18:34:49 <elliott> fine, i will fix it. can i convince you to not complain if i put pre { overflow-y: scroll } in the site CSS in return? the page has sprouted a horizontal scrollbar again.
18:35:41 <elliott> that was a serious question
18:36:28 <oerjan> oh hm. there was one problem i saw with that the other day...
18:39:59 <oerjan> um, don't you mean overflow-x:scroll
18:40:37 -!- lambdabot has joined.
18:40:55 <elliott> * #haskell Banlist: Sat Jan 21 19:19:41 *!*Libster@*.bltmmd.east.verizon.net lindbohm.freenode.net
18:42:21 <oerjan> elliott: ouch, sorry that's horrible, it would put a scrollbar on _all_ pre's, regardless if needed.
18:42:41 <elliott> oerjan: ok i mean pre { overflow-y: auto }
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18:44:07 <oerjan> elliott: it's just that i saw the other day that http://esolangs.org/wiki/Nonsense_Query_List had useless scrollbars like that
18:45:04 <elliott> oerjan: i cannot be held responsible for other people's crimes against formatting :P
18:45:26 <elliott> _ideally_, I'd just have every line wrap, and have an indicator when lines wrap (like an indentation of the line and an arrow next to it)
18:45:30 <elliott> but that'd require a small mediawiki extension
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18:46:54 <oerjan> elliott: i think it's because he used _both_ word-wrap:break-word and overflow-x:scroll, i'll try removing the latter.
18:48:11 <elliott> oerjan: do you really think touching that page is wise
18:48:49 <elliott> * glguy removes ban on *!*Libster@*.bltmmd.east.verizon.net
18:48:59 <elliott> * #haskell Banlist: Sat Jan 21 19:19:41 *!*mathnerd3@*.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net lindbohm.freenode.net
18:49:13 <oerjan> elliott: ok feel free to rollback if you want :P
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19:23:03 <elliott> <fmn> Absolutely newbie. I have the following list: pixels = [[255, 255, 255], [0, 0, 0]], but pixels !! 0 seems to return a double
19:23:03 <elliott> <fmn> (Actually a list of three Doubles)
19:24:57 -!- TodPunk has joined.
19:31:58 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10026205/to-sample-a-voice-from-many-voices-using-matlab
19:32:01 <elliott> I have a wave file of chicken voices. Among the voices there is a sound of chicken vomit.
19:32:02 <elliott> So I've already convert the audio to Matlab plot, but don't have the idea on how to differentiate between the surround chicken voices and the vomit chicken.
19:33:54 -!- nortti has joined.
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19:40:55 <nortti> SliTaz GNU/Linux runs great on Thinkpad T20 until it starts to swap to disk...
19:44:13 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
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19:54:40 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
19:55:35 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:57:19 <oerjan> `run echo wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee >test
19:58:54 <HackEgo> Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted.
19:59:12 <oerjan> RocketJSquirrel: that actually helped me...
20:02:37 -!- MoALTz has joined.
20:04:18 <oerjan> HackEgo: but i don't like that kind of experience :(
20:05:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: fortunr: not found
20:05:39 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ofortuna: not found
20:05:53 <HackEgo> Peak District <--> Is pickled tart \ -- anagrama
20:07:23 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:08:31 <nortti> `run echo 'fortune; echo hel' > lbl
20:09:17 <nortti> @where hel `run sh lbl
20:09:35 <elliott> don't start another identical botloop...
20:09:42 <oerjan> ais523: btw do rollbacks hide edits from (default) recent changes or not?
20:09:44 <nortti> @where+ hel `run sh lbl
20:09:55 <HackEgo> I lay my head on the railroad tracks, \ Waitin' for the double E. \ The railroad don't run no more. \ Poor poor pitiful me....[chorus] \.Poor poor pitiful me, poor poor pitiful me. \.These young girls won't let me be, \.Lord have mercy on me! \.Woe is me! \ \ Well, I met a girl, West Hollywood, \ Well, I ain't naming names. \ But she really worked me over good, \ She was just like
20:09:57 <elliott> you can see my rollback of NSQX's edit to [[User:elliott]] in recentchanges
20:09:59 <elliott> and the pervious edit before
20:10:13 <ais523> oerjan: they don't normally, there's a hidden URL param you can use to make them hide the edit, though
20:10:24 <ais523> ?bot=1 on a contributions page will change the rollback links on that page to hide the edit
20:10:50 <elliott> (diff | hist) . . m User:Elliott; 01:37 . . (+17) . . Ehird (Talk | contribs) (Reverted edits by 202.156.14.101 (talk) to last revision by Elliott)
20:10:50 <elliott> (Block log); 01:37 . . Ehird (Talk | contribs) changed block settings for NSQX (Talk | contribs) with an expiry time of 1 week (account creation disabled) (block evasion)
20:10:50 <elliott> (Block log); 01:36 . . Ehird (Talk | contribs) blocked 202.156.14.101 (Talk) with an expiry time of 1 week (anonymous users only, account creation disabled) (block evasion)
20:10:50 <elliott> (diff | hist) . . User:Elliott; 01:36 . . (-17) . . 202.156.14.101 (Talk) (ZNT ELLIOTT LIEK EHIRD?)
20:11:16 <ais523> elliott: I think bot rollback is accessible to anyone with rollback perms (which is not the same as undo perms, and which aren't given by default in the default config)
20:11:26 <ais523> but it's a hidden feature, it's not mentioned in the interface anywhere
20:11:39 <quintopia> why do people use the golden section search for steepest descent when (according to my calculation) randomized binary section search is about 1% faster and not significantly harder to implement?
20:12:00 <elliott> oh, they don't [hide] normally, OK
20:13:02 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/rumlg/clearly_go_is_a_superior_weapon_if_the_goal_is_to/c48ttru
20:14:12 * Sgeo vaguely wonders if Conservapedia covers EPR stuff
20:16:33 <oerjan> conservapedia considers the european pressurized reactor a sure sign of the Beast.
20:17:14 <nortti> oh $DEITY no. We are going to get Fox tv here on Finland
20:17:28 <quintopia> the only mental link i get for EPR is einstein-podolsky-rosen
20:17:38 <oerjan> and the european platform for rehabilitation is even worse, being socialist healthcare.
20:17:38 <Sgeo> quintopia, that's what I meant, I think
20:18:02 <quintopia> elliott gets toilets and oerjan does google searches
20:18:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:18:12 <elliott> hi Phantom_Hoover hows america
20:18:22 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:18:44 <quintopia> say hi to doodle for me while you're there
20:19:11 <oerjan> they can't understand _anything_ of electron paramagnetic resonance, so that's obviously evil.
20:20:09 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7).
20:20:19 <oerjan> i'm sure you can guess what they think of ecological planning and research.
20:22:12 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it's obviously part of the global warming conspiracy
20:23:32 <atehwa> It's funny how I regularly get highlights from the channel because people ask about Finnish people here :)
20:23:58 <elliott> atehwa: It's your fault for being so Finnish!
20:24:03 <elliott> You're in Helsinki, right? We were doing statistics.
20:24:38 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: just a friend of mine in the annapolis area
20:25:20 <atehwa> elliott: quite so. Although it doesn't make much difference which municipality you're in if it's the capital area
20:25:41 <atehwa> So, it's basically same town, whether it's Helsinki, Espoo or Vantaa
20:26:02 <elliott> atehwa: Well, we're just picking the biggest Helsinki possible, because you need all the help you can get to surpass Hexham's esolang density.
20:26:48 <atehwa> (maybe i should just google
20:26:55 <quintopia> RocketJSquirrel: arent you at purdue?
20:27:07 <elliott> atehwa: It's a small-ish market town in the UK. There are two people in this channel from there.
20:27:12 <elliott> One of them is me; the other is Taneb/Ngevd.
20:27:20 <elliott> The probability of this is incomprehensibly small.
20:28:12 <atehwa> I'm quite sure the Finnish capital area will surpass you
20:28:22 <elliott> atehwa: You'd need over 100 esolangers.
20:28:39 <atehwa> ah, so we're talking about comparative density here?
20:28:50 <elliott> 0.02% of Hexhamers are esolangers (going by 2001 population data, so probably a bit less)
20:29:25 <elliott> So you need 104.18 esolangers in Helsinki-the-city to beat us.
20:29:30 <atehwa> Okay, I'll more to Inari with some other esolanger so we'll have better statistics there
20:29:47 <atehwa> we've got really low-population municipalities in Finland :)
20:30:01 <oerjan> elliott: i am not sure expanding helsinki beyond the university-dense area is likely to help
20:30:04 <elliott> Yeah, but if there's somewhere else in Finland with more esolangers, you don't even enter the competition ;)
20:30:27 <Phantom_Hoover> ALSO: I have just realised that American houses are like normal houses pushed down a floor.
20:31:01 <atehwa> oerjan: Helsinki University of Technology is actually in Espoo, and they have some esolangers there.
20:31:15 <elliott> atehwa: Is that the one that's not Wave?
20:31:44 <atehwa> elliott: um... what are you referring to?
20:32:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't fathom why, seeing as AFAICT they fulfil the same function as a second floor but with the added benefits of being dank, lightless and prone to flooding.
20:32:41 <elliott> atehwa: I call it Wave University since fizzie was all "oh, they're renaming our university to Wave" one day.
20:32:50 <elliott> And that's a marginally more ridiculous name than Aalto.
20:33:05 <atehwa> HUT was renamed to Aalto when they merged with some other higher education institutes
20:33:08 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: tornados maybe?
20:33:19 <atehwa> Aalto is because of Alvar Aalto
20:33:28 <elliott> atehwa: oh, so it's the one that _is_ aalto?
20:33:37 <atehwa> I wonder why he was the one to be named after...
20:33:39 <elliott> or does HUT not stand for Helsinki University of Technology...
20:33:49 <atehwa> elliott: yes, they're the same
20:33:51 <elliott> ... and where does that TKK thing come into this?! your universities are really confusing :)
20:34:01 <atehwa> HUT and TKK also mean the same
20:34:10 <elliott> one university, three names
20:34:15 <atehwa> TKK is Finnish acronym whereas HUT is the English one
20:35:11 <atehwa> similarly, the art school has two acronyms, UIAH and TAIK (but they got merged into Aalto)
20:35:55 <atehwa> sincerely, what I keep wondering about is why all Finnish universities want English acronyms in addition to having Finnish ones.
20:36:27 <elliott> to make people think they have twice as many universities
20:36:38 <elliott> possibly the most devious plot ever
20:37:23 <oklopol> we mostly just use the english one
20:38:55 <elliott> shachaf is going to turn off IRC to get something done.
20:42:35 <oklopol> i just found over 500 euros in a plastic bag
20:42:52 <atehwa> we have really many universities anyway, compared to the population, because at some point the state wanted to give support to rural areas by dispersing all kinds of institutions all around the country
20:42:52 <elliott> i just found a plastic bag in over 500 euros
20:42:56 <oklopol> i have been throwing money in there for some time, apparently quite a bit :D
20:43:12 <elliott> is this because you bought that computer
20:43:21 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: check out lemur okthxbye
20:43:47 <oklopol> i was supposed to get a 1200 grant, plus 300 extra, 1000 award money, and 3000 salary
20:44:16 <oklopol> perhaps the rest is coming this month
20:44:28 <oklopol> in any case, the 500 may help.
20:44:37 <oklopol> i didn't count all of it, probably there's at least 100 more
20:44:45 <oklopol> plus i do have more bags somewhere in there
20:44:59 <oklopol> and i can always rob my neighbors
20:45:41 <oklopol> elliott: the computer was before i started a savings account which i won't touch for 10 years and where i put all my moneys
20:45:50 <oklopol> i used to have moneys back then.
20:46:03 <elliott> are you sure you're feeling ok
20:46:24 <oklopol> well i also just spent 600 on train tickets i have no use for
20:46:50 <oklopol> also today i returned like 70 euros worth of bottles
20:47:08 <oklopol> i had lined our university office with them
20:47:14 <oerjan> atehwa: btw trondheim's university (NTNU)'s official name in english is norwegian university of science and technology. it is told that it originally was supposed to be "technology and science" until someone noticed a small detail...
20:47:35 <elliott> oerjan: they must have been nuts
20:47:50 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:48:00 -!- Taneb has joined.
20:48:11 <oklopol> (that's something like 150 liters or something)
20:48:22 <Taneb> Woah, I left this open
20:48:23 * oerjan puts elliott on the list of people who spoil jokes.
20:48:46 <ion> Fallout 1 for free. http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/fallout
20:48:52 <oklopol> do you to take 6 trips between kuopio and turku
20:49:48 <Taneb> If by "kuopio" you mean "cairo" and by "turku" you mean "turkmenistan"
20:50:28 <oklopol> i should probably sell them on the internets or something
20:50:36 <oklopol> afaiu you can't return them
20:51:38 <oerjan> <oklopol> also you aren't finnish <-- he's just translating to equivalent british empire terms
20:53:55 <Taneb> oerjan, I promise I'll mark my hurts and my heals from now on!
20:58:26 <oklopol> why can't i be one of those people that win all the lotteries
20:58:30 * Sgeo accuses oerjan of being legal, winning, and not fun
20:58:44 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:59:09 <oerjan> Sgeo: but i'm not a player!
20:59:52 <Sgeo> GOPL should be an esolang
21:00:01 <Sgeo> Erm, described on the esolang wiki
21:00:19 * oerjan isn't sure he gets Sgeo's references here
21:00:27 <Sgeo> http://www.win.tue.nl/~engels/frc/index.html
21:00:59 <Sgeo> I was a fan of reading this stuff in 2003
21:05:38 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:07:53 <elliott> can two people upvote me plz thanks
21:07:55 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Apr 5 22:07:48
21:08:06 <ais523> or is that not an upvote?
21:08:18 <elliott> ok so 3 hours to get two upvotes, easy
21:08:32 <oklopol> elliott: i can think positive thought about you if that helps?
21:08:34 <ais523> oh, you're trying to hit SO karma cap?
21:09:16 <ais523> hmm, statistic just in: Chrome has a higher market share than IE on Sundays
21:09:30 <elliott> ais523: not the cap, just 200
21:09:38 <elliott> 200 a day keeps the doctor away, they say
21:09:54 <elliott> though i only average 167 :'(
21:16:19 -!- derdon has joined.
21:18:42 <ais523> elliott: you've given up trying to cap it every day, then? good, I think
21:20:11 <elliott> ais523: no, 200 is the cap
21:20:20 <elliott> but you can reach 200 without reaching the cap
21:21:39 <elliott> I'm a little rusty on Haskell, but iirc, the ++ syntax is memory-expensive, where as the cons operator (:) is cheap. Is it possible to use something like (key, x) : parseToEntries xs? Again . . . my Haskell is very rusty, so this might be way off. – jpm 3 mins ago
21:24:48 <elliott> ais523: accepts don't count to cap
21:25:08 <ais523> that makes sense, actually
21:26:10 <elliott> There is no user by the name "Ehird". Usernames are case sensitive. Check your spelling, or create a new account.
21:26:27 <elliott> my test wiki user somehow got renamed to "ehird" when i tried to add the lowercase username thing
21:27:51 * elliott is hoping to get the Math extension working w/o texvc
21:30:38 <elliott> ais523: what's a WP article with lots of LaTeX?
21:30:55 <ais523> err, hmm, [[rotation matrix]]?
21:31:04 <ais523> just thinking of one I came across recently (pointing my students to it)
21:31:10 <elliott> thanks, that looks like a good test case
21:32:17 <elliott> MediaWiki escapes the & inside the math tag
21:32:26 <elliott> so all aligned stuff gets amp; after it with MathJax
21:33:49 <elliott> guess MediaWiki's MathJax support isn't ready for prime-time, then
21:41:45 <nortti> "polls show that over 20% of Americans say their main source of news is the Fox News Channel."
21:41:55 <elliott> but more importantly, "polls show that
21:44:08 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Apr 5 22:44:01
21:48:22 <lambdabot> Local time for nortti is Fri Apr 06 00:50:02 UTC+3.00 2012
21:48:34 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: sleep).
21:49:50 <elliott> ais523: you wake up! it is very dark. you are a graue.
21:49:59 <elliott> you are likely to eat something.
21:50:09 <ais523> elliott: almost works, but not really
21:51:12 <elliott> EXCUSE ME you just RUINED my PERFECT ZORK FANFICTION
21:52:20 <elliott> * Look for 'orphan' revisions hooked to pages which don't exist
21:52:20 <elliott> * And 'childless' pages with no revisions.
21:52:20 <elliott> * Then, kill the poor widows and orphans.
21:52:20 <elliott> -- Mediawiki maintanence script orphans.php
21:52:53 <elliott> haha, you even get that if you pass it --help
21:55:20 <Sgeo> "Loophole Could Allow Private Land Claims on Other Worlds"
21:55:23 <Sgeo> Aerican Empire?
21:55:39 -!- parkkk has joined.
21:56:03 <HackEgo> parkkk: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
21:56:36 <parkkk> Do you know of a humorous book or article which employs an esoteric language as a vehicle to introduce its readers to computer science?
21:56:59 <parkkk> a la "Introduction to Computer Science through Brainfuck"
21:57:18 <ais523> I don't think so, although it makes a lot of sense
21:57:26 <parkkk> I would love to read it!
21:57:37 <elliott> I think you're now legally obligated to write it.
21:57:38 <ais523> I've heard rumours of a course that started teaching people Ook! as a first language
21:58:07 <parkkk> I will, at some point, but presently I find myself unable to as I'm a beginning cs student
21:59:10 <parkkk> not entirely, at least
22:01:14 <parkkk> what topics would this book embrace? Help me list a few items so I can begin doing research
22:01:45 <elliott> No, I meant what I said to ais523 was a joke.
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22:10:21 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Apr 5 23:10:14
22:10:44 <Sgeo> elliott, are you planning on sleeping at a normal time?
22:10:51 <Sgeo> </complete-hypocrite>
22:11:22 <Phantom_Hoover> For— WHY IS DWARF FORTRESS' RELEASE CYCLE MOVING SO QUICKLY
22:14:46 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night. As if.).
22:15:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Errythin' fast in 'Merica.
22:15:41 -!- Patashu has joined.
22:15:48 <Phantom_Hoover> And those aren't bugfixes; he's overhauled animal training and clothing.
22:16:27 * Phantom_Hoover → trying to wrestle Henry into running Multiwinia the only way he knows: brute force and inadequate knowledge of X.
22:16:44 -!- david_werecat has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:17:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Bet you break it.
22:17:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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22:25:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Excuse me, it's not my fault I somehow bought a laptop with a GPU that seems to be moving backwards in time.
22:26:30 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: the gpu is going forwards, it's you and the rest of the world that are going backwards
22:48:07 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Apr 5 23:48:00
22:57:00 <elliott> http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/128340/visual-studio-zooming-and-help-with-web-browser
22:57:09 <elliott> Visual Studio: Zooming, and help with web browser?
22:57:10 <elliott> Okay, How do I do zoom!!???? I've been trying 2 figure this out.
22:57:12 <elliott> And how to make it so that when I go to another website, it shows the URL of every website I'm on, not just the URL I just typed in?????????????? For example, when I type "facebook.com", it leads me to Facebook. Then say I click on an ad. It goes to another website, but the URL textbox still says "facebook.com". I've been trying 2 figure this out help!!!!!!!!!!!!!
22:57:17 <elliott> By the way, I have 2010 Express.
22:57:57 * ais523 wonders if visual studio actually can act as a web browser
22:58:05 <ais523> it wouldn't surprise me, it's not an entirely useless feature for an IDE to have…
22:58:27 <Sgeo> At least at one point, Word had a web browser
22:59:05 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, it's MS, wouldn't it just use Trident?
22:59:42 <Sgeo> (IE's renderer)
22:59:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How do you know that?
23:00:22 <Sgeo> http://www.sitepoint.com/microsoft-drop-trident-from-internet-explorer/
23:02:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Have I mentioned that I hold a grudge against chess players worldwide.
23:02:17 * Sgeo pretends that elliott was not being sarcastic
23:02:31 <Sgeo> elliott, I used to play a little chess on occasion
23:03:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Because they're dirty little sneaks.
23:03:32 <RocketJSquirrel> "It is open source and has been in development far longer than any other engine." I don't believe the latter part is true of Lynx.
23:03:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Dirty little sneaks who publish April Fools pranks on April 2nd.
23:03:54 <RocketJSquirrel> There are certainly older engines, although I'm not sure whether any of the current ones are older. Gecko might be.
23:04:04 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Uhhh... Gecko is not older than Lynx...
23:04:17 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Gecko is circa 1997.
23:04:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=8047, http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=8051
23:05:41 <RocketJSquirrel> Oh, hm, I was operating under the misconception that Gecko was actually derived from the original Netscape engine.
23:06:15 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: You think they could have developed something as good as Mozilla out of Netscape 4?
23:06:22 <elliott> Have you ever *used* Netscape 4?
23:06:40 <elliott> In fact, the whole reason Netscape went to hell and went open-source is because they fucked themselves over rewriting everything from scratch.
23:06:49 <RocketJSquirrel> Yes, but I don't doubt their ability to throw away vast chunks :)
23:06:52 <Sgeo> When was the rewrite that Joel Spolsky uses as an example of a bad idea
23:07:38 <Sgeo> But when, between what versions? 4 and 6?
23:07:58 <elliott> Then they used Mozilla to make 6.
23:08:41 <elliott> Oh: "At least one more major revision of Netscape was expected to be released with the old layout engine before the switch."
23:08:45 <RocketJSquirrel> Right, I wasn't aware that Mozilla was a rewrite per se, I thought it was just a very significant overhaul.
23:08:51 <Sgeo> "exhaustively analysed all lines that follow after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 and came to some extraordinary conclusions."
23:08:54 <elliott> So they fucked themselves over WITHOUT the immediate benefit.
23:09:03 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Well, I don't think the surrounding chrome was rewritten?
23:09:03 <Sgeo> That in and of itself should be enough of a clue that it's a joke
23:09:16 <elliott> Sgeo: It goes on to "explain" how it was done without actually checking them all.
23:09:34 <elliott> It's fairly plausibly-written apart from (a) the orders of magnitude being way off and (b) the Turing machines bit.
23:09:42 <RocketJSquirrel> Still need to write that text backend for WebKit some time.
23:09:50 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Right: "In October 1998, Netscape announced that its next browser would use Gecko (which was still called NGLayout at the time) rather than the old layout engine, requiring large parts of the application to be rewritten. While this decision was popular with web standards advocates, it was largely unpopular with Netscape developers, who were unhappy with the six months given for the rewrite.[7] It also meant that most of the work
23:09:50 <elliott> done for Netscape Communicator 5.0 (including development on the Mariner improvements to the old layout engine) had to be abandoned. Netscape 6, the first Netscape release to incorporate Gecko, was released in November 2000 (the name Netscape 5 was never used)."
23:10:00 <elliott> So Mozilla probably wasn't a COMPLETE rewrite.
23:10:16 <elliott> "Gecko also has limited support for some non-standard Internet Explorer features, such as the marquee element"
23:10:24 <elliott> Can you imagine if it *didn't*?
23:10:40 <Sgeo> <blink> was created as a joke, right?
23:11:04 <elliott> Lou Montulli is credited as the inventor of the blink tag at Netscape, although he claims he only suggested the idea, without writing any actual code.[1]
23:11:04 <elliott> ... At some point in the evening I mentioned that it was sad that Lynx was not going to be able to display many of the HTML extensions that we were proposing, I also pointed out that the only text style that Lynx could exploit given its environment was blinking text. We had a pretty good laugh at the thought of blinking text, and talked about blinking this and that and how absurd the whole thing would be. [...] Saturday morning rolled around and
23:11:05 <elliott> I headed into the office only to find what else but, blinking text. It was on the screen blinking in all its glory, and in the browser. How could this be, you might ask? It turns out that one of the engineers liked my idea so much that he left the bar sometime past midnight, returned to the office and implemented the blink tag overnight. He was still there in the morning and quite proud of it.[1]
23:11:49 <elliott> I like how that means we can blame a non-standard, inaccessible, horrific HTML kludge on Lynx.
23:14:12 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Fri Apr 6 00:14:05
23:14:25 <ais523> was it standard at any point, and unstandardised due to being so unpopular? or not?
23:14:59 <elliott> <blink> doesn't even work nowadays.
23:15:03 <elliott> WebKit doesn't support it.
23:15:26 <elliott> <marquee>, however, still works.
23:15:54 <elliott> "As with the blink element, because the marquee tagged images or text are not always completely visible, it can make printing such webpages to a paper hard-copy an impossible and inefficient task where the specific printed pages where the messages on screen scroll or blink have to be printed multiple times to capture all the pieces of text that could be displayed at any one given moment in time."
23:16:03 <elliott> I wonder if anyone has ever printed a page multiple times to get all the marquee.
23:16:26 <elliott> "Unlike its blinking counterpart, the marquee element has several attributes that can be used to control and adjust the appearance of the marquee."
23:16:30 <elliott> Imagine <blink> with attributes.
23:16:37 <elliott> <blink speed="10000000000000">AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA</blink>
23:16:58 <elliott> "CSS properties are used to achieve the same effect as specified in the Marquee Module Level 3, which is in the call for implementations stage.[3]"
23:17:04 <elliott> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-marquee/
23:17:29 <monqy> marquee is amazing
23:17:45 <monqy> why wouldn't it exist
23:18:00 <elliott> Yeah, but to sully it with CSS?
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23:49:23 <pikhq> I internetted in the 90s!
23:49:31 <pikhq> I know the horrors that can bring!
23:51:21 <olsner> http://olsner.se/marquee.php
23:51:27 <ion> Too bad IRC doesn’t have marquee. :-(
23:51:55 <olsner> ion: IRC is a marquee that scrolls upwards slowly
23:52:18 <ion> So is a scrollable webpage. :-P
23:53:04 <olsner> see, the marquee is the basis of everything good
23:55:54 <olsner> (for the morbidly curious, I also have marquee2, marquee3 and marquee4 that do slightly different things with marquees)
23:56:27 <elliott> ion: other people can't scroll your webpage
23:56:47 <elliott> olsner: holy shit, that's art
23:57:46 <elliott> marquee2 would be more fun if they alternated directions :)
23:58:51 <elliott> olsner: http://olsner.se/marquee2.php?s=100
23:59:41 <elliott> olsner: i want to see these in a fucking gallery
00:03:20 <olsner> I wonder if I could css transform an iframe to make thumbnails of these in a gallery
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00:09:39 <olsner> or did you mean one of those meatspace galleries?
00:11:01 <monqy> I want theatrical adaptations of marquee.php and marquee2.php
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00:13:04 <elliott> olsner: yes a meatspace gallery
00:13:06 <elliott> although a net one works too
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00:16:52 <shachaf> elliott: What's it to you?
00:20:43 <olsner> hmm, maybe a virtual meatspace gallery then? I wonder how well webgl combines with iframes
00:20:50 <RocketJSquirrel> Argh, followed an ad link for some reason to the "shocking" "discovery" that Kevin Bacon is related to his wife. They're TENTH cousins, once removed.
00:24:05 <elliott> shachaf: What *happened* to mmorrow, man?
00:24:28 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: TENTH COUSINS?!?!?!?!?!
00:24:34 <elliott> That's practically fuckin' yer parents.
00:25:25 <elliott> Hello! I've just realized that Haskell is no good for working with functions!
00:25:32 <pikhq> Hooray, family trees as cyclic graphs. :P
00:26:16 <ais523> elliott: what should it be able to do that it can't?
00:26:53 <elliott> ais523: nothing, that was one of my famous quoteless quotes
00:27:00 <elliott> of this nonsense: http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2012-April/100608.html
00:29:39 <elliott> they don't appear to understand extensional equality
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00:35:04 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Fri Apr 6 01:34:56
00:37:01 <kmc> "I guess Lisp might be of this kind, but I'm not sure. In addition, I'm not a fan of parentheses."
00:37:03 <kmc> ffffffffffffffffff
00:37:06 * kmc has a stroke and dies
00:37:39 <kmc> i'm looking to buy a battleship BUT IT CAN'T BE GREY
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00:38:19 <elliott> kmc: also, by "battleship" I mean "yacht"
00:38:36 <elliott> I bought this battleship "Haskell" and it's all big and heavy and shit, it's really bad at battling
00:38:36 <kmc> the best kind of yacht is a decommissioned battleship
00:39:13 <kmc> they used to paint crazy stripes on battleships to confuse rangefinding
00:39:19 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazzle_camouflage
00:40:30 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Dazzle-ships_in_Drydock_at_Liverpool.jpg awesome
00:41:48 <kmc> 'Dazzle makeup, or "CV Dazzle" (computer vision dazzle), to hamper automatic computer detection and recognition of faces, has been mooted as a response to mass surveillance'
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00:55:15 <elliott> why do people try and install yi
00:55:28 <elliott> i have seen people honestly think the best way to start writing haskell is to install yi to edit it with
00:57:23 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: an editor written in haskell
00:58:11 <kmc> which usually does not build
00:58:33 <kmc> i mean, they might have heard it's like xmonad
00:58:39 <kmc> xmonad is good software which works
00:58:48 <kmc> not that using xmonad will help you start writing haskell
00:58:49 <monqy> I also built yi once once
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01:03:33 <kmc> elliott, i mean a lot of haskell beginners are True Believers who want to purge their life of everything non-Haskell
01:03:58 <elliott> are you sure i mean i'm not disbelieving you necessarily but i've never got that impression from anyone
01:04:03 <elliott> maybe the xmonad adoption a bit
01:04:22 <kmc> the same people usually talk about writing an operating system in Haskell, without necessarily understanding what an OS is
01:05:07 <elliott> ok well i've never heard that :P
01:05:33 <elliott> if only there were more people who _do_ know what an OS is who wanted to write them in functional languages
01:05:34 <kmc> like the Linux kernel is 10 million lines of code evolved over 20 years but if we used haskell we could rewrite it in 5k lines in a month
01:06:14 <kmc> i think they're extrapolating from typical beginner experiments -- prime number sieve, toy lisp, etc.
01:06:15 <pikhq> Perhaps if you also replace all hardware with a Reduceron.
01:06:44 <kmc> they assume the same expressiveness ratio applies to everything
01:07:28 <kmc> to be fair, most of the 10 MLoC in Linux is support for obscure devices and platforms
01:07:42 <kmc> and legacy cruft
01:07:58 <elliott> speaking of OSes -- can I get you to implement @ for me kmc
01:08:15 <shachaf> @ isn't written in Haskell.
01:08:23 <shachaf> @ takes 0 lines of code to write in @
01:08:28 <pikhq> No, it's written in @lang.
01:08:29 <shachaf> Because you already have @
01:08:42 <elliott> It's not written in Forth!
01:09:03 <elliott> I considered using Forth as a low-level layer at one point, but I couldn't make it cohere with my requirements.
01:09:23 <shachaf> You could just say "there", you know.
01:09:52 <ais523> elliott: that was actually funny
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01:10:37 <shachaf> It may have been funny, but it was also intherent. :-(
01:12:12 <shachaf> I don't speak mediawikese.
01:12:15 <elliott> "You have been blocked from editing for violating Wikipedia policy. If you believe this block is unjustified, you may contest this block by replying here on your talk page by adding the text {{unblock|your reason here}}. You may also email the blocking administrator or any administrator from this list instead, or submit a request for unblock to the Unblock Ticket Request System."
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01:18:56 <zzo38> I found a Haskell package for monoid-transformer; it has Reader and State, both of which are also applicative. I know all applicative can make monoid transformer. Is there any monoid transformer which cannot make applicative?
01:20:15 <zzo38> (There is no Writer transformer, although there certainly can be; it would be just the pair of monoids)
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01:24:02 <elliott> Henning Thielemann, the author, has a somewhat infamous style in which types are always named "T" and classes are always named "C", intended to be used qualified e.g. State.T, State.put, etc.
01:24:18 <elliott> Apart from being ugly, this leads to wonderful instance lists that look like:
01:24:29 <elliott> because Haddock doesn't disambiguate the names (apart from the link destinations).
01:24:46 <zzo38> Should they add commands to Haddock to deal with this?
01:24:57 <elliott> No, he should just stop doing that.
01:25:07 <elliott> It's not as if any command would be required; it can know when disambiguation is required automatically.
01:25:16 <elliott> And probably it would be an improvement. But it wouldn't make the style any less awful.
01:25:28 <kmc> i think in isolation it's a fine style, but it's not what anyone else does, and the tools don't support it well
01:26:00 <kmc> it's more common in M L
01:26:19 <elliott> It works in ML because ML has a module system. We have a piece of cardboard.
01:26:34 <elliott> (I also find it less distateful in ML because ".t" is a lot less ugly than ".T"...)
01:28:33 <zzo38> But all of them that they defined, are all the monoid transformer made from a applicative; so instead, can you make up a type: newtype ApMonoid f t = ApMonoid (f t); instance (Applicative f, Monoid t) -> Monoid (ApMonoid f t) where { mempty = ApMonoid $ pure mempty; mappend (ApMonoid x) (ApMonoid y) = ApMonoid $ liftA2 mappend x y; };
01:29:01 <zzo38> How do you mean, that ML has a module system and we have cardboard?
01:29:25 <elliott> ML has a powerful module system with functors (not the same as CT/Haskell functors; they're higher-order modules)
01:29:30 <elliott> Haskell's module system is... significantly less expressive
01:30:34 <elliott> These blog posts show an example of how Haskell's module system is significantly more limiting:
01:30:35 <elliott> http://augustss.blogspot.co.uk/2008/12/somewhat-failed-adventure-in-haskell.html
01:30:37 <elliott> http://augustss.blogspot.co.uk/2008/12/abstraction-continues-i-got-several.html
01:30:38 <elliott> http://augustss.blogspot.co.uk/2008/12/abstracting-on-suggested-solutions-i.html
01:30:40 <elliott> http://augustss.blogspot.co.uk/2008/12/ocaml-code-again-im-posting-slight.html
01:32:07 <kmc> yeah, Haskell's module system is much simpler
01:32:13 <kmc> but I wouldn't say it's bad
01:32:16 <ais523> admittedly, it works in ML because it's common, and so people know to make tools that understand it
01:32:19 <kmc> it's good within the scope of what it tries to do
01:32:23 <ais523> s/admittedly/arguably/
01:32:36 <kmc> in Haskell the module system is expected to carry less of the abstractive weight
01:32:50 <zzo38> One thing is that you cannot hide or override class instances in Haskell; and I would like to have those features too
01:33:14 <kmc> yeah, type classes kind of suck
01:33:28 <kmc> i think that's "type classes suck" and not "modules suck because they don't let us work around type classes sucking"
01:34:55 <ais523> <Larry Wall> We've also seen the rise of PHP, which takes the worse-is-better approach to dazzling new depths, as it were. By and large PHP seems to be making the same progression of mistakes as early Perl did, only slower.
01:35:10 <zzo38> In addition, both hide/override class instances, and a kind for modules, are ideas for my new programming language (called Ibtlfmm currently; if you don't like that name, call it HELLwaPAIN or something else). There is the @ kind which is the kind of program modules, etc. This will solve it too, I think. As well as having macros, that also helps.
01:37:31 <elliott> I must ask: Who suggested the name HELLwaPAIN?
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01:37:50 <elliott> <bottle> Consider a mass-damper-spring system. I dont get how the forces in each direction can be equal at any given moment. then how could it move? Like My''+by'+ky=F
01:38:07 <zzo38> elliott: Someone did, in #haskell channel.
01:38:24 <elliott> kmc: Consider a mass-damper-spring system. I dont get how the forces in each direction can be equal at any given moment. then how could it move? Like My''+by'+ky=F
01:38:41 <zzo38> Perhaps, we should make up a channel or wiki or repository or whatever we can put all idea of everyone and discussion, to make a complete document.
01:39:13 <elliott> kmc: Consider a mass-damper-spring system. I dont get how the forces in each direction can be equal at any given moment. then how could it move? Like My''+by'+ky=F
01:48:04 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought elliott was trying to physics and I was sniggering until I read scrollback.
01:48:40 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: and now you're laughing out loud?
01:49:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm too sleepy for differential equations (I hate differential equations).
01:50:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Consider a mass-damper-spring system. I dont get how the forces in each direction can be equal at any given moment. then how could it move? Like My''+by'+ky=F
01:54:01 <Phantom_Hoover> (My least favourite is second-order nonhomogeneous. I really hate those.)
01:55:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I had nonhomogeneous milk once.
01:56:12 <shachaf> I think Oleg wrote a paper about that.
01:56:34 <elliott> Wait, homogenisation doesn't have anything to do with safety, that's pasteurisation.
01:56:38 <elliott> WHY IS MILK SO COMPLICATED
01:57:34 <lambdabot> milk (milk (milk (milk (milk (milk (milk (milk (milk (milk (milk (milk (mil...
01:59:18 <shachaf> elliott: Basically, "programming language" is another word for "syntax".
02:01:22 <elliott> shachaf: Can you explain people whose attitude to new languages is "is this better than $LANG? Let me prod it incessantly in an attempt to rpove it's not"?
02:01:37 <shachaf> elliott: kmc has a few words to say about that.
02:01:48 <zzo38> But there is some way I was think of, make up a typeclass with no instance, and it is defined in the main module of your program; that way the main module exports the implementation (which can include types) to the other module that uses it. Still that is not quite perfect
02:05:51 <shachaf> Which means "explain to me in detail what each character of that thing does.
02:06:50 <zzo38> "The Person data type now has two parameters. This might be bearable, but imagine a more complicated example where Ops contains 15 types. And every time you add a field with a new type to Person you have to update every single place in the program that mentions the Person type." But can't you use a type synonym?
02:07:17 <shachaf> Why do type synonyms help?
02:07:31 <elliott> shachaf: Is ^^^^ some kind of four-eyed monstrosity?
02:07:48 <elliott> zzo38: No, because you need to keep the type parameters along
02:07:54 <elliott> Person a b c d e ... -> Person a b c d e ... -> ...
02:08:31 <zzo38> elliott: I mean like, type Person = XPerson XString XDouble;
02:08:48 <elliott> Sure, but the whole point is that you write code polymorphic in that...
02:08:52 <elliott> Which has to use type variables.
02:11:55 <zzo38> There are no zero parameter type classes in Haskell, either.
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02:17:38 <itidus20> milk inspired 100s of soy products
02:18:10 <kmc> http://teamsuperforest.org/superforest/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Picture-3.png
02:18:16 <zzo38> class Ops x where { type XString_ x :: *; type XDouble_ x :: *; concatenate_ :: x -> XString_ x -> XString_ x -> XString_ x; xshow_ :: x -> XDouble_ x -> XString_ x; }; type XString = XString_ (); type XDouble = XDouble_ (); concatenate :: Ops () => XString -> XString -> XString; concatenate = concatenate_ (); xshow :: Ops () => XDouble -> XString; xshow = xshow_ ();
02:18:21 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: *Why is milk so unfnarftastic?
02:18:40 <kmc> grass ---cow---> milk
02:19:02 <kmc> milk <- cow -< grass
02:19:16 <itidus20> i want some quark with 10% fat
02:19:34 <elliott> Feed a cow milk and it'll poop grass.
02:19:45 <kmc> milk ←cow⤙ grass
02:22:53 <zzo38> Will the code I specified work (if you define the instance only in the main module of the program)?
02:23:35 <elliott> zzo38: Yes, but it means you cannot use more than one choice of types per program.
02:23:49 <elliott> So it significantly limits composability and reuse.
02:24:02 <zzo38> Yes I know that there is that problem.
02:25:09 <shachaf> elliott: People who say "ofc" are the devil.
02:25:12 <zzo38> If they allowed you to hide instances in Haskell, you could do it in the other way too. They should make an extension which allows you to hide instances.
02:25:47 <zzo38> And to make default instances which will have a lower priority than other instances.
02:29:01 <zzo38> I think it should be allowed in GHC to have an extension which you can define instances with priorities, and that local instances override imported instances, and that the new instance will be used in imported functions if and only if there are the constraint mentioning that instance in the type of the imported function that you are calling
02:29:18 <elliott> * #haskell Banlist: Sat Jan 21 19:19:41 gio123!*@* lindbohm.freenode.net
02:29:22 <elliott> shachaf: Why do I know the name gio123?
02:29:48 <kmc> isn't he the one who keeps looking for confluence experts
02:29:55 <zzo38> And then add zero-parameter type classes, and now you have it.
02:30:40 <zzo38> How difficult would it be to implement these two things?
02:30:58 <elliott> kmc: Not a troll though, are they? I didn't realise #haskell ever actually banned unconstructive people.
02:31:20 <kmc> i don't recall what happened
02:31:27 <shachaf> elliott: gio123 got pretty rude some of the time.
02:31:51 <kmc> i think my favorite #haskell question ever was
02:31:55 <kmc> @quote ubuntu.freebsd
02:31:56 <lambdabot> NIXDAEMON-COOL says: how to uncompile make into java gcc 3.3 under ubuntu freebsd ??
02:32:14 <kmc> after much prodding and language barrier, this person did in fact have a haskell question
02:32:24 <elliott> that seems like a relative of "How do I patch KDE2 under FreeBSD?"
02:37:22 <zzo38> I have previously written about a proposal for instance disambiguation extension, but now I have a much simpler idea. * Instances defined in the current module override instances in imported modules. * Instances can have an optional priority, where higher priority instances override lower ones. * Overriding instances does not affect functions from imported modules unless the instance is mentioned in the constraint of the type signature of that function.
02:37:58 <Sgeo> "(Also, this post was an April Fools prank; the effect may or may not be real, and all citations are either irrelevant or fictional.) "
02:38:06 * Sgeo is now slightly humiliate
02:39:07 <zzo38> What do you think of this much simpler and more consistent instance disambiguation proposal?
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02:39:56 <zzo38> Actually, I don't know if associated types might mix this up.
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03:23:17 <zzo38> I have not quite reached 23rd experience level in the Dungeons&Dragons game yet.
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03:27:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Most annoying thing about American culture in general: the Jew jokes.
03:27:25 <Phantom_Hoover> They're so utterly baffling if you don't already know.
03:27:36 <monqy> what's a jew jokes
03:29:05 <Phantom_Hoover> (This is a general pop culture thing which has bemused me for ages, not any particular American trip thing.)
03:30:12 <kmc> whee time to reinstall all my haskell packages with profiling
03:31:39 <elliott> kmc: Why did you install them without in the first place?
03:32:16 <kmc> because i foolishly installed some of my haskell system from debian
03:32:42 <shachaf> kmc: Debian has -prof packages.
03:33:49 * elliott MORE FORWARD-THINKING THAN YOU
03:33:53 * kmc just disables profiling for now
03:33:58 <shachaf> shachaf@carbon:~$ which ghc
03:34:15 <elliott> shachaf: WRONG PATH. MY PATH IS BETTER BECAUSE IT'S MY PATH
03:34:29 <shachaf> Are we talking about life here?
03:37:49 <elliott> that's what gave kmc all the Problem
03:37:56 <elliott> i bet you don't even have 7.4!!!
03:38:08 <ais523> not like I use it very much anyway
03:38:16 <ais523> hmm, ./ghc would be the losiest
03:40:08 * Sgeo renames some sort of Esme interpreter to ghc
03:40:30 <Sgeo> Although an existing Esme interpreter would be a bit ...
03:41:45 <shachaf> ais523: GHC 7.4 lets you work miracles.
03:46:39 <elliott> shachaf: How do you disable the startup messages?
03:47:00 <ais523> that prompt is obnoxious
03:47:16 <shachaf> I know that answer is disappointing. :-(
03:49:31 <zzo38> I think the monad/comonad that has been called phantom/cophantom and by a few other names, can actually be used with any category that has final/initial objects.
03:50:58 <Phantom_Hoover> I love how much of stats is just covering up arbitrary constants with someone's name.
03:56:52 <RocketJSquirrel> <Phantom_Hoover> Most annoying thing about American culture in general: the Jew jokes. // wut
03:57:18 <Phantom_Hoover> RocketJSquirrel, the UK doesn't really have a significant Jewish presence in its culture.
03:57:54 <Phantom_Hoover> As such, the jokes in American media go completely over my head.
03:59:14 * elliott can't figure out whether Phantom_Hoover is talking about jokes originating from Jewish culture or stereotypical nonsense
03:59:42 <RocketJSquirrel> 'cuz jokes originating from Jewish culture are also known as the actually-funny jokes.
04:00:08 <elliott> BTW what does "verklempt" mean and am I allowed to use it
04:00:23 <elliott> It is the best-sounding word
04:00:28 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: Roughly "distraught", and no, your nose is too small.
04:01:18 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tired_and_emotional
04:01:43 <Phantom_Hoover> <RocketJSquirrel> 'cuz jokes originating from Jewish culture are also known as the actually-funny jokes.
04:02:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Even unfunny jokes are less baffling than things that look like jokes but make no sense to you.
04:02:34 <elliott> Who the hell sleeps at midnight?????? RocketJSquirrel that's who.
04:03:42 <shachaf> elliott: What do I do if I want to not turn out like RocketJSquirrel?
04:03:50 <elliott> Okay, first don't be a squirrel.
04:03:56 <elliott> Second, don't sleep at midnight.
04:04:19 <Phantom_Hoover> wait does RocketJSquirrel use the same american time as m
04:04:26 <lambdabot> Local time for Phantom_Hoover is Fri Apr 6 04:00:51
04:04:28 <lambdabot> Local time for RocketJSquirrel is Fri Apr 6 00:03:53
04:04:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: YOU REALLY NEED TO FIX THAT CLAWK
04:04:40 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Thu Apr 5 21:04:02 2012
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04:05:13 <shachaf> I remember when you said that last time.
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04:32:57 <elliott> kmc: What's your blog thing about global variables to avoid that unsafePerformIO bug?
04:33:24 <kmc> what about it
04:33:30 <kmc> you want link?
04:33:40 <elliott> Googling is like, 10x more work than asking you
04:33:43 <kmc> YOU WANT LINK FIVE DOLLAR
04:33:47 <kmc> http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2011/11/global-locking-through-stableptr.html
04:34:08 <shachaf> copumpkin: That reminds me, you owe me some dola.
04:34:37 <elliott> kmc: Just tortured innocent #haskell member with it after they asked about unsafePerformIO'd IORefs.
04:36:38 <kmc> elliott, you tortured them by telling them how to work around a nasty compiler bug?
04:38:44 <elliott> kmc: they went from "I have to be careful with unsafePerformIO" to "I have to write unportable C code and use the FFI _and_ be careful wit unsafePerformIO"
04:39:19 <kmc> it's really a shocking bug
04:39:24 <kmc> given how common the unsafePerformIO global trick is
04:41:44 <elliott> I should sleep soon. I'll need it tomorrow.
04:43:04 <elliott> kmc: A certain... esoteric matter relating to the timely evaporation of blockades.
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04:43:35 <kmc> watch out for your chi enerchy
04:43:39 * kmc has no idea what elliott is talking about
04:44:17 <shachaf> Is that about those books?
04:48:52 <zzo38> I have not used unsafePerformIO global trick; I have many alternative ways
04:50:50 <zzo38> One thing I have is the Data.Extensible.Product module and that could be used to store global settings by using (StateT IO)
04:51:20 <shachaf> zzo38: You can also store global settings by using (StateT ... IO) any other way.
04:52:02 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes you can do so. However, if you have a bunch of different module with different global variables, it would be difficult to put them all together
04:53:14 <zzo38> If you want to be able to load/save the global states in files as well, then you can combine it with Data.Extensible.List as well.
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05:04:35 <zzo38> Actually there are other uses for the Data.Extensible.... stuff too
05:07:06 <zzo38> I changed the traverseBox in Graphics.DVI to use both Applicative and Monad, because I also changed the other thing so that after it accesses the contents of boxes and other nodes that can contain other nodes, the box itself (after it has been modified) is accessed too.
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05:09:28 <zzo38> Why is the unsafePerformIO global trick used that often? Can't some optimization and other stuff capable of mixing it up?
05:15:27 <zzo38> Also, do you know any example of a monoid transformer which is not applicative?
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08:58:29 <shachaf> zzo38: Is dvi-processing better than HPDF?
08:59:42 <zzo38> shachaf: In some ways, probably it is. But in other way, dvi-processing is not complete and lacks some things; later version might improve that.
09:00:47 <shachaf> The main things I don't like about HPDF are:
09:01:02 <shachaf> All the overly complicated and stupid PDF stuff.
09:01:07 <shachaf> The inability to use any TFM font.
09:01:22 <shachaf> The inability to both read and write DVI files (HPDF writes only).
09:02:43 <zzo38> Other things some people might not like about HPDF is the monadic interface; a declarative interface might be preferred. (Even the author of HPDF complained about this, actually)
09:03:01 <shachaf> Oh, and the monadic interface.
09:03:08 <shachaf> I would prefer a declarative interface.
09:06:28 <zzo38> Actually, the traverseBox function in dvi-processing is monadic but that is all. (I have only used it with the writer monad, but you can use it with other monads too, if you have a use for it)
09:07:03 <shachaf> Can I use it with all monads at once?
09:09:08 <zzo38> shachaf: I suppose so, in case of polymorphic functions that use it.
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10:42:16 <oerjan> <olsner> http://olsner.se/marquee.php <-- apparently marquee can crash IE 8. who knew.
10:43:17 <ais523> poor oerjan and his browser
10:43:28 <oerjan> well "crash", i had to kill the process, which seems to cause it to reload everything in a weird state
10:45:16 <olsner> oerjan: that page might also involve an infinite iframe recursion
10:45:18 <oerjan> it happened once before, it _looks_ like it makes tabs be distinct processes or something, which they usually aren't.
10:45:48 <ais523> oerjan: I crashed ie4 with an infinite frameset recursion once
10:46:15 <oerjan> olsner: yes it started rolling and then halted, waiting indefinitely for everything to load, i stopped it at =hundredsomething but the cpu was still pegging
10:46:30 <olsner> ah, yes, <marquee><iframe src="marquee.php?s=1" height="100%"/></marquee>, the php script adds one to s for each frame
10:46:50 <olsner> to avoid simplistic iframe recursion checks :)
10:47:55 <olsner> ais523: some browsers immediately abort if they see an iframe with the same url as an outer page
10:47:57 <ais523> the page is kind-of boring in my firefox, btw
10:48:08 <ais523> I mean, why were you trying to nest infinitely many iframes?
10:48:55 <ais523> because I can't figure out what you'd be hoping to accomplish
10:48:59 <ais523> other than, apparently, crashing IE
10:49:50 <oerjan> olsner: do the other examples do infinite recursion?
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10:50:44 <olsner> oerjan: yes, all except marquee2
10:50:45 <kmc> about:<script>while(1){window.open(document.src);}</script>
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10:51:03 <oerjan> ok i'll risk trying marquee2 then
10:51:23 -!- ais523 has changed nick to about.
10:52:59 <oerjan> that got nauseating around =4 or so :P
10:55:56 * about waits to see how often they get mispinged
10:57:27 <olsner> oerjan: try 100, that's a better demonstration I think
10:58:01 <oerjan> olsner: erm i fear that will just crash it again - it wasn't precisely _zippy_ at 5 either...
10:58:28 <olsner> how can they have trouble with marquees? :(
10:59:36 <about> what would be great would be a webpage that crashes every commonly used browser
10:59:43 <about> probably with a different exploit for each
10:59:52 <about> wouldn't work for long, though
11:00:09 <oerjan> whew i tried =20 and i managed to close the tab normally - barely
11:00:53 <about> both from the same person :)
11:01:04 <oerjan> what are these mispings you are talking about.
11:01:29 * oerjan actually wasn't thinking when he wrote that.
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11:02:40 <about> oh, you mean it was accidental? from you, I'd have assumed it was deliberate every time
11:04:08 <olsner> hmm, interesting, nested marquees also cause opera to use a bit of cpu time... and the cpu usage depends on the number of *visible* marquees
11:04:30 <oerjan> exercise: formulate all your sentences so the about is a part of them.
11:04:52 <about> I don't know about that
11:05:21 * about what are you referring?
11:05:36 <about> meh, that's really twisted grammar
11:06:15 -!- oerjan has changed nick to the.
11:06:28 * the government is watching you!
11:06:32 -!- the has changed nick to oerjan.
11:06:32 <about> nick-protected, I already checked with nickserv :)
11:07:02 <oerjan> i didn't get a protection warning...
11:07:59 <about> did nickserv lie to me?
11:08:03 <about> or did it just go somewhere else?
11:08:21 <about> heh, "an" is Vorpal
11:08:39 <about> and it even fits, being his initials
11:09:44 <oerjan> i just meant i got no warning when /nick the
11:10:05 <oerjan> except it was obviously registered
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11:14:11 <about> have we put our welcome message back from the april fools' one yet?
11:14:26 <HackEgo> about: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
11:14:34 <about> `welcome Cainogenos
11:14:38 <HackEgo> Cainogenos: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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11:16:20 * oerjan wonders how many people are looking for the other #esoteric, but are scared away by our welcome message before we can point them on
11:21:31 <olsner> nice, it just started snowing, quite a lot too
11:22:21 <oerjan> the snow here is taking a nap on the ground
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12:15:46 <ion> http://i.imgur.com/k1RB5.jpg
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12:29:55 <oerjan> <shachaf> λ> data Miracle = Miracle
12:30:10 <oerjan> i'dathought newtype Miracle = Miracle Miracle, more like
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12:43:45 <oerjan> 04:04:26: <lambdabot> Local time for Phantom_Hoover is Fri Apr 6 04:00:51
12:43:45 <oerjan> 04:04:27: <elliott> @time RocketJSquirrel
12:43:45 <oerjan> 04:04:28: <lambdabot> Local time for RocketJSquirrel is Fri Apr 6 00:03:53
12:43:45 <oerjan> 04:04:34: <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: YOU REALLY NEED TO FIX THAT CLAWK
12:43:45 <oerjan> 04:04:36: <shachaf> @time shachaf
12:43:47 <oerjan> 04:04:40: <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Thu Apr 5 21:04:02 2012
12:44:28 <oerjan> i have a hunch time server use is not as widespread as i'd hoped.
12:45:18 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Fri Apr 6 14:44:40 2012
12:45:26 <lambdabot> Local time for olsner is Fri Apr 6 14:44:50
12:45:43 <olsner> my clock is correct, according to my clock anyway
12:48:16 <oerjan> on further investigation, it's the codu logs which are off; the rest are reasonably synchronized with each other.
12:49:24 <oerjan> phantom_hoover is also off, but by precisely one minute :P
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13:12:22 <oerjan> no one can bear being misped all the time
13:30:41 <oerjan> hm the nearby burger king i've never tried is supposedly open today
13:31:48 * oerjan hasn't been outside the house since tuesday because of fever and then easter closure
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13:47:36 <Taneb> Do you know where the Magma Hideout in Pokemon Emerald is?
13:48:16 <ais523> if aqua and magma have separate hideouts, no
13:48:21 <ais523> they're in the same place in ruby and sapphire
13:48:31 <ais523> and I know those, but not emerald
13:48:47 <ais523> I can look it up easily enough if you're desperate to know
13:49:48 <ais523> it requires the Magma Emblem in your inventory
13:50:14 <ais523> if you have acro bike, you can reach it going up from lavaridge; otherwise, you can reach it going down from Mt. Chimney
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14:03:20 <ais523> Taneb: Ngevd: oh, the Master Ball's in there, probably you shouldn't leave until you find it
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14:03:39 <ais523> wait, no it isn't, that's in Ruby
14:04:24 <ais523> so yes, no master ball there for you, it must be somewhere else
14:04:55 <ais523> ah, aqua hideout in emerald :)
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14:50:08 <itidus20> it was just a joke since you have been playing pokemon lately
14:50:33 <itidus20> and i havent played pokemon since the blue one came out so i can't do any proper joke
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16:09:09 <elliott> Taneb: Hi! welcome to murder!
16:10:17 <elliott> How long is it until 1 am?
16:10:48 <Taneb> elliott, just under 8 hours
16:13:37 <elliott> Taneb: Can you slow time down?
16:14:46 <elliott> Taneb: Can you at least make people I don't like stop posting on reddit?
16:15:06 <Taneb> elliott, for that I think you need Phantom_Hoover
16:18:08 <elliott> Holy crap the new Google Groups interface is bad.
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16:19:46 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Yoooo implement my language for me
16:28:41 <elliott> 10:45:18: <oerjan> it happened once before, it _looks_ like it makes tabs be distinct processes or something, which they usually aren't.
16:28:44 <elliott> @tell oerjan that's a feature
16:30:20 <elliott> 11:16:20: * oerjan wonders how many people are looking for the other #esoteric, but are scared away by our welcome message before we can point them on
16:30:35 <elliott> @tell oerjan also i'm just going to reply in the logs from now on because @tell is too much typing
16:30:50 <elliott> oerjan: lots i figure, but i don't feel the need to cater to anybody so impatient by putting it in the same message
16:31:14 <elliott> they already get one strike against them for thinking a one-# channel on freenode would be about it; parting immediately is strikes 2 & 3
16:42:11 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: It IS JavaScript!
16:42:16 <Sgeo> Bleh at candyfab.org being down
16:42:29 <elliott> If JavaScript was a statically-typed, functional systems programming language.
16:42:33 <Sgeo> Metacircular interpreter?
16:42:54 <Sgeo> I have no idea what one actually looks like, but know of it due to knowing a little about SICP
16:43:07 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: People will definitely appreciate opening their web browser to compile your code (no, it won't work in Node.js)
16:43:37 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: What will it compile down to?
16:44:10 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: That's not funny. You should have said, e.g. "SPARC asm".
16:44:28 <elliott> "68k code for the Macintosh"
16:45:30 <elliott> It only works inside the Basilisk emulator.
16:45:35 <elliott> And only if it's running on an OS X host.
16:46:19 * Sgeo goes to look for a UNIVAC emulator
16:47:30 <elliott> shachaf: The person who asked the first SO question I ever answered wrote a Haskell tutorial!
16:47:42 <elliott> I guess me answering someone's question makes them go from beginner to expert in three months.
16:48:02 <Sgeo> Linky to SO question?
16:48:13 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8502201/remove-file-if-it-exists-in-haskell --> http://yannesposito.com/Scratch/en/blog/Haskell-the-Hard-Way/
16:48:21 <elliott> Learn Haskell Fast and Hard
16:48:21 <elliott> Blow your mind with Haskell
16:49:03 <itidus20> The cookies contain marzipan. Paradise ruined.
16:49:11 <elliott> "Mainstream languages share the same foundations:
16:49:11 <elliott> data structures, objects and classes (for most)"
16:49:12 <elliott> 1. Even if most recent languages try to hide them, they are present.↩
16:49:41 <shachaf> elliott: HLEP whats pointer
16:49:53 <elliott> Functional style; an example from imperative to functional style
16:49:53 <elliott> Types; types and a standard binary tree example
16:49:53 <elliott> Infinite Structure; manipulate an infinite binary tree!
16:49:55 <elliott> Deal with IO; A very minimal example
16:50:00 <shachaf> elliott: pointign is rdue.
16:50:09 <elliott> Did you know that basic IO in Haskell is HELL DIFFICULTY?
16:50:22 <Sgeo> Um, wouldn't it be more accurate to say "Mainstream languages are usually abstract enough to hide things such as underlying GOTOs. Haskell has abstractions such that..."
16:50:31 <Sgeo> Hmm, not sure how to continue that
16:50:40 <shachaf> Sgeo: Haskell don't hide the gotos, man!
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16:51:14 <itidus20> I don't like the way that i'm insulting an actual person's name by saying: H*ell
16:52:27 <elliott> This tutorial is unfortunately lacking in the kind of gross errors I like to see.
16:52:43 <elliott> "Integer have no limit except the capacity of your machine:" OR DOES THEY??????
16:53:07 <Sgeo> There is a limit though ...
16:53:11 <RocketJSquirrel> Integers have no limit beyond the capacity of your IMAGINATION
16:53:35 <elliott> Oh, wait, I thought that said "Int".
16:53:43 <elliott> Sgeo: No, Integer has no limit.
16:53:45 <Sgeo> elliott, *clap* *clap* *clap*
16:53:57 <Sgeo> elliott, doesn't Integer on GHC use Int# internally?
16:54:06 <elliott> I am talking about Haskell.
16:54:07 <Sgeo> For ... something to do with whatchamacallit
16:54:15 <shachaf> Sgeo: Only for small numbers?
16:54:17 <elliott> If gcc has a bug, it does not matter one bit about C.
16:54:21 <shachaf> elliott: We got the point, though.
16:54:27 <elliott> shachaf: It stores the number of limbs as an Int#.
16:54:35 <elliott> Well, technically gmp does.
16:54:39 <elliott> But that means GHC does too.
16:54:57 <shachaf> elliott: The point is: PEOPLE ARE ALL STUPID
16:55:13 <shachaf> IF YOU WRITE A HASKELL TUTORIAL, YOU DESERVE elliott'S WRATH
16:55:33 <itidus20> thanks to the wonders of networking you never truely know how big the capacity of your distributed machine might be
16:55:42 <elliott> "Note we can declare function with ' in their name. Here:
16:55:42 <elliott> square ⇔ square' ⇔ square'' ⇔ square '''"
16:55:49 <elliott> WROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG
16:55:52 <shachaf> "hi. my name is elliott, and ur stupid lol" -- elliott "u r dum" elliott
16:55:57 <elliott> Those strings are *clearly* nonequal!!!!!!!
16:56:01 <elliott> Also one of them has a SPACE!!!!
16:56:11 <elliott> "Note: the if .. then .. else Haskell notation is more like the ¤?¤:¤ C operator. You cannot forget the else."
16:56:17 <elliott> Not true! I have almost assuredly forgotten the else before.
16:56:28 <elliott> "The hard part could now begins." Oooooooooooooooooooooh!
16:56:59 <itidus20> there could be a node on your distributed processing network which was added by a time traveller which has more capacity than all of the rest of the internet
16:57:14 <elliott> "Recursion is generally perceived as slow in imperative language. But it is generally not the case in functional programming. Most of the time Haskell will handle recursive function efficiently." -- followed by a tail-recursive loop _without_ a strictness annotation that will blow the stack, foldl-style.
16:57:48 <elliott> (Okay, at least they rewrite it with pattern-matching afterwards. But it's still abominable.)
16:58:00 <Sgeo> elliott, no in for that let
16:58:19 <olsner> Sgeo: do you really want to know?
16:58:21 <shachaf> elliott: "See this red button right there? Instead of pressing it, you could press this much nicer-looking green button!"
16:59:08 <itidus20> the green button is a political tool
16:59:26 <Sgeo> I, for one, plan on taking over the world with pattern-matching
16:59:34 <elliott> "Instead of saying: foo l = if l == [] then <x> else <y> You simply state:
16:59:55 <elliott> "In Haskell you can simplify function definition by curry them. For example, instead of writing:
17:00:02 <itidus20> finally the humans still do 8 hour workdays regardless of which button you push
17:00:26 <itidus20> but the longer you hold off pushing the green button, the more the humans can adapt to their 8 hour days
17:00:33 <elliott> "But as Haskell is lazy, it doesn’t evaluate (f z x) and push this to the stack. This is why we generally use foldl' instead of foldl; foldl' is a strict version of foldl. If you don’t understand what lazy and strict means, don’t worry, just follow the code as if foldl and foldl' where identical."
17:00:36 <shachaf> elliott: I was happier before you made me less happierful. :-(
17:00:52 <elliott> I like how he introduces foldl before foldr.
17:01:06 <itidus20> technological advancement is really an arms race against human relaxation
17:01:14 <shachaf> elliott: foldr isn't tail recursive!
17:01:18 <elliott> type Name = AnotherType is just an alias and the compiler doesn’t do any difference between Name and AnotherType.
17:01:18 <elliott> data Name = NameConstructor AnotherType make a difference.
17:01:18 <elliott> data can construct structures which can be recursives.
17:01:18 <elliott> deriving is magic and create functions for you.
17:01:20 <shachaf> You gotta have tail recursion, man.
17:01:26 <elliott> I love to make a difference.
17:01:50 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:02:02 <shachaf> Note to self: Never write anything that elliott can read.
17:02:08 <elliott> “if it compiles it certainly does what you intended”]]
17:02:13 <shachaf> elliott: Did you read that one story?
17:02:20 <elliott> This is the best way to identify people who have never actually written a Haskell program that I know of.
17:03:18 <shachaf> http://www.andersen.sdu.dk/vaerk/hersholt/Something_e.html
17:03:34 <elliott> Oooh, and then he gives a Show instance for his binary tree type that doesn't produce syntactically-valid Haskell!
17:03:36 <shachaf> DEEP LIFE LESSON TAUGHT RIGHT NOW
17:03:51 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:03:54 <shachaf> elliott: To be fair, you don't need to produce syntactically-valid Haskell.
17:04:01 -!- Ngevd has joined.
17:04:03 <elliott> Otherwise the precedence stuff breaks.
17:04:10 <elliott> And if you don't do it I hate you.
17:04:23 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb.
17:04:42 <elliott> "In fact, if you are a bit pedantic, you should state that Haskell is non-strict. Laziness is just a common implementation for non-strict languages."
17:04:46 <elliott> Hey, don't start being accurate now..
17:05:12 <shachaf> elliott: I got into this great argument in another channel the other day.
17:05:29 <shachaf> Someone was asking: "Are Python generators a form of lazy evaluation?"
17:05:45 <shachaf> I said that not really, etc., and talked about why and so on.
17:06:01 <shachaf> After a while, I realized that no one had ever said what "lazy evaluation" actually meant!
17:06:13 <shachaf> We were just arguing about words! It was a complete waste of time!
17:06:30 <shachaf> I should've caught it sooner, but even so.
17:07:00 <elliott> The best word arguments are in #haskell.
17:07:13 <shachaf> elliott: Hey, now, #haskell is full of arguments about words.
17:07:15 <itidus20> shachaf: I love arguments that revolve around the term exist being undefined. (not really)
17:07:33 <shachaf> itidus20: The great part is that there are so many of these that you don't even notice.
17:07:47 <shachaf> Because *you* have a clear definition for the term, after all.
17:07:56 <elliott> They're the best word arguments.
17:08:38 <shachaf> I should start being like conal.
17:09:02 <shachaf> Maybe that's being like Feynman.
17:09:33 <elliott> I think it'd be pretty depressing to hold the view that all arguments are either disagreements about definitions or irreconcilable value systems.
17:09:35 <elliott> It might be accurate, though.
17:09:38 <itidus20> Bill Clinton really did it the best
17:11:57 <elliott> shachaf: Were you there for that argument about whether IO is pure or not in #haskell?
17:12:27 <elliott> It was marginally better than most arguments about that because roconnor came up with a definition of purity.
17:12:40 <shachaf> elliott: I once heard that there's a philosophical tradition in India where people say something along the lines of: "These are the axioms *I* believe in. What axioms do *you* believe in? OK, let's take the intersection of those and just use them, for the purpose of this argument."
17:12:50 <shachaf> That sounds way too reasonable to actually be true, though.
17:12:59 <itidus20> shachaf: well if you look into india..
17:13:45 <elliott> I don't believe the intersection of two axiomatic systems is going to produce anything useful unless they have a close common ancestor.
17:13:45 -!- quintopia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:13:58 -!- quintopia has joined.
17:14:46 <itidus20> modern indians are such a strong stereotype that people are blinded to the truth of ancient india
17:15:16 <shachaf> elliott: I think most pairs of humans share some number of axioms.
17:15:30 <shachaf> elliott: Certainly you'll agree that arguing about results derived from unshared axioms is pretty useless?
17:16:07 <olsner> I think most humans have no clue about what their axioms are
17:16:32 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:16:52 -!- Taneb has joined.
17:17:02 <itidus20> it is said that some indian guy had some kind of proto-calculus about 1000 years ago
17:17:14 <elliott> shachaf: Apart from what olsner said, I'm not sure that's actually meaningful, since people argue about axioms all the time.
17:17:45 <elliott> You could say that's inherently pointless, but it seems silly to declare Falso vs. ZFC an inherent draw.
17:17:57 <shachaf> Sure -- but it's a very different sort of argument.
17:17:59 <elliott> (Okay, those two might be equivalent.)
17:18:13 <elliott> (Substitute a less powerful theory than ZFC.)
17:18:26 <itidus20> also.. humans will inevitably evolve into something more complex
17:18:30 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Quit: brb).
17:18:46 <shachaf> And if you can't agree on the axioms, then arguing arguing about distant results might well be even less useless.
17:18:50 -!- MoALTz has joined.
17:20:31 <shachaf> Sorry. I meant EVEN LESSER USEFULLESSEREASTER
17:21:51 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: bbl).
17:23:13 <elliott> shachaf: Why is Haskell kinda crappy?
17:24:56 <elliott> 03:16:44 <dobblego> zipWith ($) = (<*>) + juggling
17:24:57 <elliott> dobblego is *wrong* in this log. :(
17:24:59 <shachaf> elliott: Because there aren't enough MONAD TUTORIALS
17:31:08 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
17:45:06 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Why is resource management hard? :(
17:45:56 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Your brain doesn't overcommit?
17:47:53 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: This is what happens when you write sentience in C.
17:48:08 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:48:46 <itidus20> its a shame in my opinion that the reason that most programming flaws matter is that flaws create security holes or possibly leak into damaging important programs... like a hello world in general doesn't need to work very well
17:49:14 <itidus20> in most situations you could afford 100mb of ram to run a hello world
17:51:35 <itidus20> i guess what i mean is that i had nothing more suitable to say and didn't want to be silent
17:56:42 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:57:25 <shachaf> elliott: It's a hint by the universe that it's time to go shopping.
18:17:05 <elliott> HOUSES AND TREES AND FOUNATINS AND GREEN
18:23:20 <itidus20> ok.. some thought resulted in an idea probably old as the hills.. chess where captures only result in the piece losing the ability to capture 2)if the enemy king is threatened with loses the ability to capture you win and 3)
18:23:50 <itidus20> you can displace a piece by some fancy displacement rules if you capture a piece which has lost the abiliyt to capture
18:30:06 <elliott> shachaf: how can i create a list starting from the middle?
18:34:46 <elliott> <brownies> is it a true statement that a Type is just a set of Typeclasses?
18:37:52 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:41:02 <oerjan> @tell elliott Sure, but i'm not sure if it's an _intended_ feature...
18:42:00 <oerjan> @tell Heck, usually I read the @tell's first in the logs anyway :P
18:42:34 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: later chat).
18:42:56 <oerjan> poor Heck, is going to be so confused
18:44:09 -!- MDude has joined.
18:45:47 <oerjan> <elliott> they already get one strike against them for thinking a one-# channel on freenode would be about it; parting immediately is strikes 2 & 3
18:45:59 <oerjan> DON'T YOU KNOW SUCH THINKING IS BAD KARMA
18:47:10 <oerjan> especially the part where you assume it's impatience
18:52:15 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:52:22 <elliott> oerjan: what's not intended feature
18:54:08 <elliott> anyway the only explanation for expecting such things in a channel starting with one # on freenode is if you decided to connect to freenode without having the most cursory understanding of its purpose, and then without reading a single word of the MOTD you get in response
18:54:08 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
18:54:32 <elliott> such people are not really worth spoon-feeding
18:54:45 <elliott> if they also leave immediately
18:55:21 <elliott> you can either educate yourself beforehand, or wait for others to teach you, but if you just join blindly and give up as soon as the first piece of information comes in then you deserve what you get
18:55:27 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:56:10 <elliott> <oerjan> <elliott> they already get one strike against them for thinking a one-# channel on freenode would be about it; parting immediately is strikes 2 & 3
18:56:10 <elliott> <oerjan> DON'T YOU KNOW SUCH THINKING IS BAD KARMA
18:56:10 <elliott> <oerjan> especially the part where you assume it's impatience
18:56:10 <elliott> <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:56:12 <elliott> <elliott> oerjan: what's not intended feature
18:56:14 <elliott> <elliott> :? i forgot context
18:56:16 <elliott> <elliott> anyway the only explanation for expecting such things in a channel starting with one # on freenode is if you decided to connect to freenode without having the most cursory understanding of its purpose, and then without reading a single word of the MOTD you get in response
18:56:20 <elliott> * oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
18:56:22 <elliott> <elliott> such people are not really worth spoon-feeding
18:56:24 <elliott> <elliott> if they also leave immediately
18:56:26 <elliott> <elliott> you can either educate yourself beforehand, or wait for others to teach you, but if you just join blindly and give up as soon as the first piece of information comes in then you deserve what you get
18:58:03 <oerjan> (that means: i don't fully agree, but my intuition is screaming that it would be a large mistake to debate this, and if you add to that the disconnect and my belief in synchronicity...)
18:58:42 <shachaf> "THINKING IS BAD" -- elliott
18:59:37 <elliott> if you want to cater to people who join the wrong channels because they didn't do any research then /msg them after they leave
19:00:47 <shachaf> elliott: GUESS WHAT I HAVE TO DO
19:01:30 <shachaf> HINT: THE ANSWER IS "SOMETHING"
19:09:59 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:10:43 <oerjan> hm this is slightly puzzling. i got the idea to check if my ip had changed after the disconnect, and it hasn't. but my first reconnect afterwards doesn't have reverse dns registered.
19:10:55 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/recording/level20_idea.txt
19:11:21 <oerjan> (*listed in the finger output)
19:12:34 <oerjan> the connect before that, and the new terminal i opened after that, had reverse dns listed.
19:15:14 <zzo38> Are they good idea?
19:15:57 <elliott> <navaati> oh, makes me think about a question : agda enforces that the programs terminate. must i conclude from this that agda is not turing-complet® ?
19:16:08 <itidus20> * Rotating mazes which are also full of illusions, signs with false
19:16:09 <itidus20> information, and a false goal. -- bruce lee would get a kick (oh god the puns) out of this
19:16:40 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Fri Apr 6 20:17:08
19:16:48 <elliott> aaargh so tempted to downvote this guy
19:17:18 <lambdabot> I live on the internet, do you expect me to have a local time?
19:18:12 <lambdabot> Local time for asdf is Fri Apr 6 15:18:11 2012
19:18:32 <Sgeo> Oh, there is an asdf on Freenode
19:18:48 <lambdabot> Local time for Sgeo is Fri Apr 6 15:18:40
19:19:01 -!- Case1 has joined.
19:19:06 <Sgeo> `welcome Case1
19:19:08 <oerjan> lambdabot doesn't respond to CTCP TIME either, sneaky bastard
19:19:10 <HackEgo> Case1: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
19:19:24 <HackEgo> Case1: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
19:20:04 <zzo38> Case1: Hello. What question?
19:20:06 <itidus20> oerjan: ahh.. boredom leads one to many weird bot queries
19:20:20 <elliott> ...do they need to have a question?
19:20:24 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
19:20:37 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:20:54 <zzo38> elliott: No, but in case they do, please to ask question.
19:21:00 <Case1> Ah k. I thought it was about the other kind of esoteric
19:21:06 <itidus20> Case1: basically.. don't flee if you're here for computer programming languages
19:22:22 <Case1> Any programmimg language in particular? or just programming languages in general?
19:22:25 <zzo38> Case1: The main topic is esoteric computer programming (more information is available in wiki); but we are often not on topic and discuss whatever happens to be discussed at the time, including computer programming, mathematics, IRC services, and everything else too
19:22:39 <zzo38> Case1: See the wiki; they are esoteric programming languages (INTERCAL, brainfuck, etc)
19:23:04 <zzo38> (If you are unable to access the wiki, some of us might still be able to help)
19:23:39 <Case1> So when do I get to see the infinate tape
19:23:52 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel is selling that.
19:24:00 <zzo38> Case1: The topic messages change very often and sometimes contain lies
19:24:02 <Case1> and how do you loop it
19:24:34 -!- MDude has joined.
19:24:48 <Sgeo> If it loops, it's not really infinite. Although it would be ... unbounded is I guess the right word?
19:26:28 <Case1> unbounded seems more appropriate
19:26:43 <elliott> Sgeo: An unbounded tape isn't cycli.
19:26:48 <elliott> A cyclic tape is just cyclic.
19:26:58 <elliott> I mean... I suppose you can say there's no "bounds" on the tape itself.
19:27:02 <elliott> But there's a bound on how much data it'll store.
19:28:35 <Case1> it's like a lemniscate
19:29:48 <Case1> or something. BRB AFK
19:30:38 -!- oerjan has set topic: This channel is about programming. | If you find the key to the matrix of solidity, please hand it in in the reception. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:31:32 <zzo38> Do you like rotating mazes? Do you like the other idea?
19:31:40 -!- elliott has set topic: Do you like rotating mazes? Do you like the other idea? | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:32:46 * oerjan now wonders how many people here came looking for the other kind of esoteric, but stayed nevertheless.
19:33:18 <itidus20> Super ASCII MZX Town sounds fun
19:33:44 <zzo38> itidus20: It is a computer game series I made; but currently only the first part of the series is complete.
19:34:09 <itidus20> It's like the coolest name ever
19:34:25 <elliott> oerjan: certainly some of them have stayed a day or two
19:34:27 <zzo38> itidus20: OK; however, some people don't quite like this name
19:35:02 <elliott> oerjan: hey can you implement my programming language. RocketJSquirrel said he'd only do it in javascrip
19:35:10 <itidus20> zzo38: even i can't believe how much i wanted a super nintendo when it first came out....
19:35:31 <elliott> oerjan: uh it doesn't really have a name :/
19:35:50 <elliott> the functional systems programming language one
19:35:51 <zzo38> oerjan: Count how many. (And if someone ask about astrology then make a comment about the Agora horoscope on your webpage, which probably won't answer their question nevertheless)
19:36:05 <oerjan> elliott: i suspect that's a "no", then.
19:36:10 <itidus20> the only thing i want more now than i wanted a super nintendo is a wife and kids
19:36:14 <elliott> but it doesn't even need a GC!
19:36:24 <itidus20> nothing else is that desirable
19:36:56 <zzo38> itidus20: Super ASCII MZX Town is not for Super Nintendo though; it is for MegaZeux, which runs on Windows, Linux, Macintosh, Nintendo DS, and more
19:37:57 <itidus20> and it has the word ASCII.. which is of course also some japanese game company who makes rpgmakers among other things
19:39:17 <zzo38> As far as I know, it won't run on the Super Nintendo (unless someone managed to port MegaZeux to Super Nintendo)
19:40:28 <itidus20> but the mere word association with super makes me like it..
19:41:09 <itidus20> and im getting less bored now that i have some newspapers, tape, and scissors to play with.. so i'll afk
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19:46:16 * oerjan imagines itidus20 taping together a letter from newspaper letters
19:48:42 <itidus20> yeah... an imagined newspaper made military sim model ended up being me deciding to nap instead
19:50:37 <oerjan> 17:02:02: <shachaf> Note to self: Never write anything that elliott can read.
19:50:37 <oerjan> 17:02:05: <shachaf> Ever.
19:51:45 <oerjan> meanwhile, i seem to manage to write things elliott cannot read, without meaning to...
19:53:58 <Sgeo> http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Splash_(move) why does this exist?
19:54:34 <oerjan> Sgeo: well you see, a long time ago, the universe exploded...
19:54:42 <zzo38> Sgeo: I suppose, because passing is not allowed
19:55:34 <zzo38> (Although using a pokeball in a trainer battle is effectively passing; so you can use that)
19:59:05 <elliott> Sgeo: so magikarp has something to do
19:59:32 <oerjan> elliott: he asked why something existed
19:59:40 <zzo38> elliott: If it did not have that, it could use struggle
20:02:38 <Sgeo> Even the Pokedex entries call it pathetic, apparently
20:02:55 <Sgeo> (Magikarp, I mean)
20:03:16 <elliott> <oerjan> meanwhile, i seem to manage to write things elliott cannot read, without meaning to...
20:03:16 <zzo38> Well, it is good if you are trying to pass
20:03:31 <oerjan> 17:24:56: <elliott> 03:16:44 <dobblego> zipWith ($) = (<*>) + juggling
20:03:31 <oerjan> 17:24:57: <elliott> dobblego is *wrong* in this log. :(
20:03:35 <elliott> Sgeo: did you seriously not know about magikarp before today
20:03:39 <Sgeo> Apparently what it evolves into is good?
20:03:48 <Sgeo> elliott, I knew a little, mostly from a certain video
20:03:50 <oerjan> elliott: like the Qdeql TC proof :P
20:03:55 <elliott> Sgeo: have you never played pokemon
20:04:07 <Sgeo> elliott, I played a little, once or twice
20:04:27 <oerjan> also, that's not wrong, assuming juggling means "adding newtype wrapping + unwrapping"
20:04:48 <zzo38> Have you played Pokemon Card? It is a different game.
20:05:02 <elliott> oerjan: it's wrong in context
20:05:10 <elliott> someone else said something with zipWith ($)
20:05:26 <elliott> but ok i guess if i expand my definition of "juggling" to the breaking point :P
20:05:29 <zzo38> ($) is like infix id
20:05:36 <elliott> you said that at the time, yes.
20:05:59 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[b]'
20:05:59 <lambdabot> against inferred type `[a] -> [b1]'
20:05:59 <lambdabot> In the second argument of `(<*>)', namely `ap'
20:06:23 <elliott> oh it was zip <*> tail i think
20:08:47 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10048213/managing-state-chapter-3-of-sicp you won't win this one dmwit!!!!
20:08:56 <elliott> I HAVE THE TWO MINUTE ADVANTAGE
20:10:36 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye7b3bOQ6lY
20:14:52 <oerjan> elliott: HEY WHY DID YOU LOCK THE WIKI
20:16:25 <oerjan> YOU MUST HAVE; THE RECENT CHANGES HAVE NOT CHANGED
20:16:36 <elliott> no, nobody has edited anything.
20:16:48 <elliott> don't say things like that, they send me into sysadmin panic attack :|
20:16:56 <elliott> i had already loaded up the sandbox and was about to ssh in
20:17:23 <elliott> anyway, everyone's keeping quiet for fear of the rising storm.
20:18:13 <oerjan> the storm of a myriad shady characters
20:18:45 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtIoW_Sm3w8 "A car crash that lasts the duration of a month. The car is slowly colliding with the wall at 7mm per hour."
20:20:27 <elliott> though there are videos that last like a year i think
20:20:29 <elliott> that stupid repetition stuff
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20:22:54 -!- shachaf has joined.
20:23:50 <elliott> http://www.humanmolecule.net/ help
20:24:57 <Case1> @carcrash: but is it art
20:25:32 <elliott> don't prefix references with @, it upsets the bot
20:28:06 <Case1> http://www.urticator.net/maze/ home of the 4d maze. caution: may cause severe disorentation
20:28:10 <Sgeo> Is that... trying to count number of atoms of various elements in a human?
20:28:44 <Sgeo> Note the computer-scientific notation for the number of atoms in the "molecule"
20:29:25 <Case1> It's trying to overextend the subatomic model into the macroverse, for some reason
20:30:21 <elliott> What if EARTH is just one big molecule of EARTH???
20:30:45 <Sgeo> I think it's supposed to be an analogy for how being made up of molecules kind of dampens the idea of free will?
20:30:57 <Sgeo> http://www.eoht.info/page/Human+molecule
20:31:07 <elliott> No, I think it's attempting to apply molecular interactions to social situations somehow.
20:31:08 <Sgeo> Things of that nature
20:31:30 <elliott> (I found this because the Libb Thims guy is banned from Wikipedia for creating articles about things like this.)
20:31:41 <elliott> Sgeo: That's a WP mirror, I think?
20:32:07 <elliott> "Latest page update: made by Sadi-Carnot" -- same guy.
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20:35:26 <Case2> I just registered this one
20:35:51 <Sgeo> "where, according to recent Internet polls, about 57% of people agree that they are a giant molecule."
20:36:04 <quintopia> elliott: re: human molecule. i had no idea we had so many of some of those elements in us
20:36:22 <Case2> we're made of dirt
20:39:56 <Sgeo> Do they say the word "metaphorically" anywhere?
20:40:11 <Sgeo> French composer Hector Berlioz used the term “human molecule” in 1854, albeit, it seems, rather metaphorically.
20:40:22 <Sgeo> French historian Hippolyte Taine, independent and contrary to prior metaphorical use of the term human molecules by Berloiz, was the first to use the term in a scientific sense and to build argument on this concept, and to have others adopt his usage.
20:43:50 <zzo38> The program Daedalus also has 4D (and even 5D) maze
20:44:50 <zzo38> The program is GPL so you can modify it to have that if you like to
20:45:33 <Sgeo> But I can't make my modifications then sell the modified game without revealing the source to my modifications
20:45:42 <Sgeo> (Ok, so not really a big deal in this case)
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20:46:13 <Case2> hey zzo38, any relation to http://jyte.com/profile/zzo38computer.cjb.net ?
20:46:25 <zzo38> Case2: I am that one.
20:46:39 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/ is my OpenID.
20:47:36 <zzo38> (Also, zzo38computer.cjb.net is my computer; the computer I am using to send this message right now, in fact)
20:48:10 <quintopia> (he is the only person left still actively using a cjb domain)
20:49:10 <Case2> I'm not sure how large of a coincidence this is...
20:49:24 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't think so
20:50:17 <Case2> jyte is yet another highly focussed self-obsoletion effort
20:51:12 <zzo38> quintopia: Air Time Canada also uses it for some of their programs
20:56:04 <zzo38> I use cjb for dynamic DNS service; it was the one I found when I first wanted to find a dynamic DNS service to my suitability. Now I run IRC, HTTP, and gopher.
20:56:41 <Case2> " An enigmatic figure, apparently of some history on the internet. zzo38 has featured in numerous internet circles, including the ZZT community and Something Awful. Despite high levels of competence in a great many facets of web-based programming and other areas of general computer knowledge, he remains completely unable to correctly spell the words 'avatar' and 'picture'. "
20:57:28 <elliott> quintopia: cjb.net has inexplicably redesigned.
20:57:38 <Case2> "He is still active, having recently appeared on Z2 and has even produced a ZZT game entitled Aksana ZZT, but his true identity remains a mystery to which only a select few on the website claim to be privy." /spam
20:57:40 <zzo38> Case2: Most of that isn't true. I have never been in Something Awful, for some thing.
20:57:41 <elliott> And it looks like they don't offer subdomains any more :P
20:58:05 <zzo38> I have used ZZT, though; that part is true.
21:00:07 <Case2> well, it's from UD, which is known for checking their facts and then checking again. SEG
21:02:35 <oerjan> enigmatic, yes. his spelling is now impeccable, however.
21:03:45 <zzo38> It contains lies! I have never been in Something Awful. But I have found one forum in which an impostor was claiming to be me (I forget what it was now, or how I found it; but it was not a subject matter I was interested in anyways)
21:04:13 <oerjan> as it was when he first came here. so even what information was originally true is many years out of date.
21:04:39 <zzo38> The comment about the spell is also lies
21:04:48 <zzo38> But the part about ZZT is correct.
21:05:48 <elliott> Thanks, the explanation of ST is really helpful! – Chris Taylor 1 min ago
21:05:48 <elliott> Thanks, this is a great answer. – Chris Taylor 1 min ago
21:08:07 <zzo38> In fact I was one of the administrators of ZZT community, but the other administrators liked to change my messages so that they didn't make any sense any more; replacing spellings with wrong ones, pictures with other ones which don't belong, and URLs with invalid URLs which point to nonexistent resources (someone changed a URL to a .ZZT file to instead point to "shootmeintheskull"; which is a nonexistent file), and other changes
21:09:36 <Case2> ZZT admins were a clownery bunch, eh
21:12:54 <olsner> my eyes feel weird after playing that maze game
21:13:07 <elliott> zzo38: can you teach me how to spell "picture"
21:13:40 <zzo38> elliott: Look it up in the dictionary. Probably it is already correct
21:14:27 <oerjan> elliott: how do i trick the spam filter? i am trying to add a wayback link to a site that is now in it (http://www.greatestjournal.com)
21:15:20 <oerjan> and the site without wayback is already on that page
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21:15:42 <Case2> elliott: which maze? the 4d one?
21:15:55 <elliott> oerjan: i'd rather not trick it, i'd rather just disable Spamblacklist tbh
21:16:17 <elliott> oerjan: we don't have any entries in it right now, so all our entries come from the wikimedia metawiki source
21:16:24 <elliott> oerjan: which is probably overly-restrictive.
21:16:28 <elliott> and besides our spam comes from very few sites.
21:16:37 <elliott> gimme a second to comment it out
21:18:06 <olsner> elliott: are you sure you're not me?
21:19:01 <oerjan> elliott: thanks it worked
21:21:22 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_portal#SpamBlacklist_disabled SO OFFICIAL
21:22:33 <zzo38> Case2: If you want to know better my things then, you should get a more updated information at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Zzo38
21:27:08 <Case2> "This user is confused by every aspect of life, including his/her own confusion."
21:27:32 <Case2> how sure are you about your own confusion?
21:27:56 <zzo38> Case2: If I am sure, that that make me to be confused?
21:27:57 -!- derdon has joined.
21:28:45 <zzo38> Your active pokemon is now confused.
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21:29:46 <Case2> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9h1tR42QYA Tiktaalik - Your Inner Fish
21:30:41 <Vorpal> * oerjan wonders how many people are looking for the other #esoteric, but are scared away by our welcome message before we can point them on <-- there is another one?
21:30:47 <zzo38> I can play Pokemon Card too. But my opponent they try to pick up too many cards and lose due to running out of cards
21:30:56 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
21:31:03 <zzo38> Approx. 1/4 of the time
21:31:38 <elliott> <dmwit> There is a way. But it's silly, and you shouldn't do it.
21:31:38 <elliott> <dmwit> ?wiki existential type
21:31:38 <elliott> <lambdabot> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/existential_type
21:31:39 <Vorpal> I guess it was discovered recently? I don't remember that message from before...
21:31:45 <Vorpal> (with recently I mean sometime time year)
21:31:47 <elliott> shachaf: You've made me start mentally phrasing everything in terms of big red buttons.
21:32:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, someone looking for that kind of stuff joined here and searched other networks.
21:32:14 <elliott> Then they told us they'd found it on dalnet.
21:32:46 <Vorpal> I'm kind of surprised dalnet still exists
21:33:31 <oerjan> irc networks never die, they just something something
21:33:55 <Vorpal> a memorable quote that one
21:35:47 * oerjan gets the bright idea of trying http://planet.freenode.net.nyud.net/
21:38:05 <elliott> variance ruins my ideas again
21:38:11 <elliott> why can't everything just be covariant
21:38:17 <elliott> i want covariant functions
21:38:25 <elliott> where a and b are both covariant somehow
21:39:37 <elliott> "One of the major new features that this upgrade will bring is the ability to identify using ssl certificates." :D
21:40:09 <elliott> "As of the services upgrade date, any nicks unused for > 150 days are at risk of being dropped. This includes grouped nicks. The easy way to avoid this happening is to use each of your grouped nicks (while identified to the appropriate account) within the next few weeks – and to drop those that you don’t need anymore!"
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21:41:31 <Vorpal> well, I do that sort of stuff regularly (connecting a separate client to not small channels)
21:41:32 -!- zzo38________ has changed nick to zzo38_________.
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21:41:50 <oerjan> zzo38__________: you really have all those registered? :P
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21:43:43 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Fri Apr 6 22:44:10
21:44:23 <zzo38> quintopia: Various things sometimes; including the D&D recording
21:44:30 <coppro> elliott: /msg nickserv info elliott
21:44:45 <zzo38> Sometimes I write stuff by hand too
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21:45:13 <zzo38> Usually just my own things though; trying to think about mathematics or computer programming or whatever I will write them on paper to think about it better
21:45:22 <elliott> coppro: not all my nicks are grouped
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21:46:23 <quintopia> zzo38: so stories sometimes too? what is the longest one?
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21:47:07 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Fri Apr 6 22:47:35
21:47:24 <elliott> not that i'm counting or anything...
21:47:32 <zzo38> quintopia: The D&D recording. And even that one is not yet complete.
21:47:40 <olsner> four hours? but it was two hours 3 minutes ago?
21:48:07 <zzo38> (And I do sometimes write computer programs by hand on paper; especially Haskell programs)
21:48:08 <elliott> olsner: different thing this time!
21:48:32 <quintopia> zzo38: coding, even by hand, is usually not classed as "writing"
21:49:25 <zzo38> Well, I do that anyways; do other people writing computer codes by hand? Do other Haskell programmers do so?
21:50:03 <quintopia> tho less so when i have portable devices handy
21:50:23 <quintopia> i would have thought someone who types as fast as you would prefer typing in most instances
21:50:41 <zzo38> quintopia: But I am not always working on the computer.
21:52:09 <quintopia> do you ever write programs on paper when you are in the same room as the computer?
21:53:31 <elliott> olsner: this one is to do with a certain... quick-quick matter
21:53:32 <zzo38> quintopia: I might when I am resting in bed, but usually it isn't when I am in the same room as the computer
21:53:57 <olsner> elliott: not quite sure what that matter is
21:55:31 <quintopia> zzo38: what kind of TIcalc do you have?
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22:06:11 <zzo38> quintopia: Can you please be more specific?
22:07:03 <quintopia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ti-92plus.jpg
22:07:27 <monqy> oh hey I have one of those
22:08:08 <quintopia> i think it was the first to have a clock
22:08:16 <monqy> i inherited it when i was a kiddo because graphing calculators were cool
22:08:38 <monqy> but by the time I actually needed a fancy calculator it was banned
22:08:46 <monqy> for being too cool
22:09:12 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_0F/screen0.png Multiple-choice-question what is it a picture of? [a] Low res Lobster [b] It looks cute and deadly at the same time [c] a brown dinosaur with too many legs [d] A mutated scorpion eating a triptych [e] This is what happens when you smoke a pipe [f] Some roguelike game [g] MegaZeux [h] That's a picture of SWMBO [i] This is a pipe; the text is lying
22:10:13 <monqy> [q] all of the above
22:10:19 <quintopia> that's a pretty good rendering from ascii
22:12:25 <zzo38> I used a program to make semitransparency of windows; that caused it to run very slowly but was useful for this purpose
22:13:42 <quintopia> zzo38: was it the original (1995) or the plus (1998)?
22:14:20 <zzo38> quintopia: I have the original calculator not the plus
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22:14:50 <quintopia> do you know if the BASIC used by 89/92+ and the BASIC used by the 92 are different?
22:17:12 <quintopia> i have some programs (games) i wrote for my (now-defunct) TI-89 which you could try to run
22:20:33 <zzo38> I made up a card game called Solter Solitaire once in TI-92, later on I implemented in on computer as well, and using other programs designed for implementing card games
22:21:22 <Sgeo> I wonder if hgmail.com might be trying to phish from clueless users
22:21:33 <Sgeo> Although I guess I would expect they'd use a gmail theme
22:22:45 <zzo38> The Haddock document for dvi-processing is now available.
22:34:12 <elliott> oerjan: hey aren't functions covariant in their argument in set theory?
22:34:16 <elliott> since they're just sets of tuples
22:35:51 <elliott> "I'm always nervous about monads for configuration because they come on the "wrong end" of the lambda expressions, i.e. f :: Int -> Config -> Int looks massively less efficient than f :: Config -> Int -> Int. I'll check out reflection. – Jeff Burdges 23 mins ago"
22:39:21 <Sgeo> I think I vaguely understand that concern
22:39:38 <elliott> yeah but it's silly because he's using it to store memoised values specifically here
22:39:51 <oerjan> elliott: if you try to apply a function to the first part of the tuples that make up a function, the result is not a function, but a relation...
22:40:46 <elliott> oerjan: but that's still more than you can do in type theory :)
22:41:53 <oerjan> in fact this may mean that relations are in a way _both_ covariant and contravariant on both sides
22:42:32 <elliott> oerjan: i think in a non-constructive setting, everything is both covariant and contravariant in everything
22:42:43 <elliott> because you don't need to supply values to a function to get their outputs, you can see the inputs and outputs right there
22:43:28 <elliott> are relations contravariant in their results?
22:43:53 <oerjan> you can compose relations, and both functions and inverse functions are relations.
22:45:01 <oerjan> oh hm this might be because the category of relations is self-dual
22:45:27 <oerjan> so covariance and contravariance is the same thing
22:45:59 <elliott> i think i know what that means (being self-dual), but can you explain it, i'm no good at CT :(
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22:47:58 <oerjan> the map swapping fst and snd in the tuples is a contravariant bijective functor from Rel to itself.
22:48:36 * elliott never did get around to reading Mac Lane.
22:49:22 <elliott> yeah, but you're a wizard who just magically knows stuff.
22:49:28 <elliott> (what did you read? or did you just magically know it.)
22:51:42 <oerjan> well there was a lot of osmosis from seminars involving C*-algebra categories, and some homological algebra and algebraic topology stuff, and some browsing the math encyclopedia...
22:52:23 <elliott> right, so you just magically know it
22:56:24 <oerjan> i vaguely recall the most basic stuff may have been mentioned in one of the courses for some of that.
22:56:48 <oerjan> vaguely enough that i have no idea which course :P
23:01:36 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sat Apr 7 00:02:04
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23:02:58 <Sgeo> http://blog.tojicode.com/2012/04/if-i-built-physics-engine.html I'm not happy with the necessity of optimizing for speed over abstraction
23:04:02 <zzo38> Let's play Pokemon Card.
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23:50:00 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sat Apr 7 00:50:27
23:52:06 <elliott> 129.242.219.37 - - [06/Apr/2012:23:40:52 +0000] "GET /wiki/Entropy HTTP/1.1" 200 23016 "-" "Less Trivial HTTP for Common Lisp (not Mozilla)"
23:55:03 <zzo38> They just wanted to ensure the word "Mozilla" was in there, even though it is not Mozilla, I guess.
23:56:56 <zzo38> Do you know there is no mass today? There is still the church service, though.
23:58:22 <elliott> I was just wondering why anyone would request that page with Common Lisp :P
23:58:26 <elliott> Maybe 'cuz it was on proggit.
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00:22:18 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sat Apr 7 01:22:45
00:25:14 <shachaf> kmc: <dmwit> This FAQ page is amazing.
00:27:49 <elliott> kmc: dmwit really likes -- yeah.
00:28:09 <elliott> <dmwit> Just... the whole thing is great. <monochrom> in any case, this FAQ should be cited more often <monochrom> @where faq <lambdabot> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/FAQ <monochrom> nice
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01:18:47 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sat Apr 7 02:19:15
01:25:14 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sat Apr 7 02:25:41
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02:21:54 <shachaf> elliott: Did you know: Linear types are a forward facing temporal modality?
02:22:21 <shachaf> I guess the sentence is reasonable in the context.
02:22:35 <elliott> He's crushing all my childhood hopes and dreams.
02:22:46 <elliott> And he's not even talking to me!
02:23:11 <shachaf> elliott: I'm using D! Is that esoteric?
02:24:49 <shachaf> I'm not actually sure whether to use it yet.
02:25:10 <elliott> Their toolchain support is beyond abominable.
02:25:13 <elliott> Ask RocketJSquirrel, pikhq, Deewiant.
02:25:27 <elliott> Also they have a ludicrously fractured community, two language versions, a bunch of compilers, two standard libraries.
02:25:33 <shachaf> "As the famous Roman mathematician [???] said: quod erat etceterandum"
02:25:45 <elliott> And it's very much a "pile everything in one language and shake it until it all sort of fits" language.
02:25:59 <shachaf> elliott: It can't be as bad as C++.
02:26:15 <shachaf> I once went to a talk about D which make it seem like a good language.
02:26:22 <elliott> Oh, sure, it's better than C++.
02:26:27 <elliott> D 2 even encodes some kinds of purity.
02:26:38 <elliott> I mean, brainfuck is also better than C++...
02:26:41 <shachaf> elliott: Were there any Roman mathematicians?
02:26:51 <shachaf> elliott: Is this the thing that ends with you telling me to just use Haskell?
02:27:39 <elliott> What are you trying to write?
02:28:03 <shachaf> I thought trying out D would be exciting. :-(
02:29:06 <elliott> But it will take you at least an hour to get a toolchain installed.
02:29:13 <shachaf> elliott: I already got gdc working.
02:29:19 <shachaf> Apparently gdc does D 2 these days.
02:29:24 <shachaf> It was just an apt-get away.
02:29:39 <elliott> I would not recommend gdc unless the year is currently 2008.
02:30:05 <elliott> Unless it stopped being crap after being maintained again.
02:30:17 <elliott> But it's D1. Except it does D2 too? I don't know.
02:30:26 <elliott> And Tango is much better than Phobos, but Tango is D1 only.
02:31:09 * shachaf was too lazy to actually get lambdabot to say that.
02:31:17 <elliott> Things. I don't remember, I abandoned D as hopeless long ago.
02:31:18 <shachaf> But pretend it did. And that there was no space before the @.
02:31:26 <shachaf> (You already pretend there's no *time* before @, after all.)
02:32:55 <shachaf> elliott: The problem with Haskell is that if you use Haskell, you start wanting your code to be nice.
02:33:14 <shachaf> And suddenly you've spent a long time on getting the API right without getting anything done. :-(
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02:33:28 <Phantom_Hoover> "In 2009, a strange smell began wafting through a Fort Worth call center that someone quickly recognized as a poisonous carbon monoxide leak." — Cracked
02:33:54 <shachaf> That's how they could tell!
02:33:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Erm, they put smell in it, don't they?
02:34:03 <shachaf> "Can you smell that?" "No." "Oh no! CO!"
02:34:21 <elliott> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> "In 2009, a strange smell began wafting through a Fort Worth call center that someone quickly recognized as a poisonous carbon monoxide leak." — Cracked <Phantom_Hoover> Odd, that, seeing as carbon monoxide is odourless. <shachaf> That's how they could tell! <shachaf> "Can you smell that?" "No." "Oh no! CO!"
02:34:24 <HackEgo> 839) <Phantom_Hoover> "In 2009, a strange smell began wafting through a Fort Worth call center that someone quickly recognized as a poisonous carbon monoxide leak." — Cracked <Phantom_Hoover> Odd, that, seeing as carbon monoxide is odourless. <shachaf> That's how they could tell! <shachaf> "Can you smell that?" "No." "Oh no! CO!"
02:35:04 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sat Apr 7 03:35:31
02:42:34 <elliott> shachaf: "The ISP". America is weird.
02:42:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: America is weird.
02:43:12 <elliott> shachaf: The part where your ISPs all have regional monopolies.
02:43:24 <shachaf> elliott: I mean "in the building I'm in currently".
02:43:52 <shachaf> There are all sorts of ISPs around, and in one place 15 minutes' walk away it's Comcast.
02:44:39 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Fri Apr 6 19:44:36 2012
02:44:48 <elliott> What are you doing in a building at 19:44?
02:45:03 <shachaf> elliott: Here is America the buildings stay on the ground during the night.
02:46:10 <shachaf> elliott: You should come visit!
02:52:49 <shachaf> monqy: What if we wrote a bot that said hi?
02:53:06 <monqy> what if we wrote two bots that said hi
02:53:11 <shachaf> It would be called monqyprime
02:53:59 <elliott> shachaf: Come visit where?
02:54:09 <elliott> shachaf: I don't like America.
02:54:12 <shachaf> Anywhere there would do -- it's a small place.
02:54:38 <shachaf> monqy is america small monqy
02:54:48 <shachaf> elliott: You should come visit so that you can make an educated decision?
02:55:09 <monqy> how small is small
02:55:47 <elliott> Wait, aren't monqy and shachaf in the same Americaville?
02:56:03 <shachaf> monqy: they got three stop signs, two police officers, and one police car
02:56:04 <monqy> I'm in the america-shaped america
02:56:12 <monqy> what is the shape of your america
02:56:24 <monqy> shachaf: that's pretty small!
02:56:47 <shachaf> elliott: "I live in California," stated Tom.
02:57:18 <monqy> hi elliott, shachaf
02:57:39 <shachaf> monqy: Wait, is your name William Parker?
02:57:46 <monqy> that's what it says right
02:57:50 <monqy> why are you stalking me
02:58:09 <shachaf> Today waas an exciting day in the part of Americaville I live in.
02:58:24 <shachaf> There was a police car and there was police officers.
02:58:39 <monqy> my americaville was boring
02:58:41 <shachaf> And the police officer said to come out with your hands up.
02:58:50 <monqy> no police officers
02:58:56 <monqy> there was a police car but it was just parked over there
02:59:17 <elliott> Do monqy and shachaf live within 100 miles of each other? They might meet and cause an explosion.
02:59:55 <shachaf> elliott: The Americaville I live in once had the most murders per capita in the US once in the 1990s!
03:00:22 <shachaf> Whoa, man, monqy is in CA?
03:00:24 <monqy> my americaville starts with c and ends with alifornia
03:00:47 <shachaf> The Americaville I live in starts with c and ends with alifornia too.
03:02:03 <elliott> Which Californiaville does shachaf live in?
03:02:10 <elliott> also I don't like murder :(
03:02:28 <shachaf> monqy: You should come visit!
03:02:36 <shachaf> elliott: I live in silly valley.
03:03:00 <elliott> Does monqy live in a silly valley?
03:03:08 <elliott> Also, I don't like silly valley. :(
03:03:13 <shachaf> But probably not the same one.
03:03:21 <monqy> isn't the world just one big silly valley
03:03:22 <shachaf> elliott: I recommend not living there.
03:03:40 <elliott> I didn't need that recommendation.
03:03:53 <elliott> How many insufferable startup people do you see per day?
03:04:17 <shachaf> elliott: It's pretty much all insufferable startup people.
03:04:29 <shachaf> Well, some of them are sufferable.
03:04:31 <monqy> shachaf: are you a insufferable startup people
03:04:41 <elliott> I don't think there are sufferable startup people.
03:05:34 <shachaf> monqy: are you a insufferable startup people
03:05:44 <monqy> whats a startup no
03:05:49 <shachaf> elliott: A lot of the startup people are moving into the San Francisco these days.
03:06:26 <elliott> shachaf: I thought that was in silly valley. :(
03:06:30 <elliott> Wait, the other way around.
03:06:34 <elliott> California is complicated.
03:06:46 <shachaf> Silly valley is about an hour by train/car from SF.
03:15:17 <shachaf> elliott: Which Ukville do you live in again?
03:15:47 <shachaf> Scotland is like a state, right?
03:17:57 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sat Apr 7 04:18:24
03:19:25 <shachaf> monqy: Are you in Lompocalifornia.
03:19:52 <monqy> does lompocalifornia start with c and end with alifornia
03:23:44 <elliott> "You've earned the "ghc" badge. See your profile."
03:25:51 * Sgeo checks out What Fools These Mortals again
03:26:08 <monqy> what's what fools these mortals again
03:26:08 <Sgeo> (A NetHack-related "game" where you take the role of a god)
03:27:08 <Sgeo> http://www.crummy.com/software/WhatFools/
03:28:33 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/3742697
03:30:12 <lambdabot> Local time for Phantom_Hoover is Sat Apr 7 03:27:10
03:30:15 <lambdabot> Local time for RocketJSquirrel is Fri Apr 6 23:30:12
03:30:21 <elliott> What time is int Americjmiao
03:30:22 <Sgeo> Hmm, ignoring a prayer sets the worshipper's HP to half their max HP
03:30:34 <Sgeo> And helping has a 1/30 chance of killing the player
03:30:51 <monqy> whatfools won't run for me :'( sgeo help
03:31:05 <Sgeo> What happens when you try?
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03:31:30 <monqy> File "WhatFools.py", line 210
03:31:30 <monqy> as = alignmentSelection.keys()
03:31:46 <monqy> same error on both python (3.2.2) and python2 (2.7.2)
03:32:40 <elliott> you ommitted the actual errore
03:32:42 <Sgeo> Does it say anything after the ^
03:33:21 <monqy> now i forgot where i put it oh there it is
03:33:30 <monqy> SyntaxError: invalid syntax
03:33:33 <monqy> most exciting error
03:34:45 <shachaf> <elliott> the most exciting error is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM
03:35:53 <Sgeo> Hmm, is the lambda in the wrap that's above it valid?
03:36:18 <monqy> sgeo it's that "as" is special syntax not a valid identifier
03:37:05 <Sgeo> How did this even get distributed in this state, then?
03:37:15 <monqy> im too lazy to get the module i need to get to make it work after fixing that which i was somehow not too lazy not to fix
03:37:35 <Sgeo> Just replace usage of as in that function with ass
03:37:44 <monqy> i replaced it with qs long ago
03:38:16 <elliott> <Sgeo> How did this even get distributed in this state, then?
03:38:20 <elliott> because as wasn't syntax a while ag
03:41:18 <shachaf> monqy: wasnt that a good joke
03:41:38 <monqy> i would have said beliot but then i wouldn't have gotten belli in there
03:43:35 <Sgeo> It is sad that I seem to have forgotten a lot about Python?
03:43:47 <monqy> beety, beaty, baety, baaty, batty
03:44:18 <monqy> Sgeo, shachaf, monqy: hi
03:49:39 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sat Apr 7 04:50:07
03:50:22 <monqy> heads up my name is elliote now
03:50:40 <monqy> just kidding, that was a joke
03:50:45 <monqy> my name is really elliotts
03:51:34 <monqy> oh no, what did i do to elliotts
03:51:52 <itidus20> monqy is that dead, married guy named monqy_
03:52:17 <shachaf> william "hi" parker, also known as monqy
03:52:50 <monqy> monqy is just a puppet, i was elliotts all along
03:53:57 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
03:54:11 <monqy> itidus20: where's itidus21
03:54:37 <itidus20> itidus21 is just a puppet, i was itidus21 all along
03:55:06 <monqy> does this mean you were a puppet all along
03:56:41 <HackEgo> 2011-02-08.txt:15:06:28: <ais523> sockpuppets wouldn't necessarily be a problem, you could think up ways to exclude them
03:56:53 <shachaf> The law of excluded sockpuppet.
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04:02:26 <shachaf> elliott: lifestream is recommending LYAH
04:05:03 <shachaf> elliott: Who was Elemir again?
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04:33:02 <calamari> it just dawned on me that incrementing a variable in a loop should cause python to eventually use all available memory
04:35:44 <elliott> shachaf: How do I become as cool as edwardk?
04:35:58 <shachaf> elliott: Man, you should *meet* edwardk someday.
04:36:08 <shachaf> He has all these great stories.
04:38:19 <zzo38> What are they called, something like an endofunctor in Haskell, but (x -> x) -> y -> y instead of having the type parameter?
04:38:53 <elliott> shachaf: I'm not worthy. :(
04:40:10 <zzo38> It seems to be something like a functor from one subcategory of (->) to another one? But even then, this is something more specific
04:47:48 <zzo38> Do you know what they are?
05:05:04 <shachaf> elliott: You should come to America! That's where edwardk is.
05:07:32 <zzo38> shachaf: I am in America the continent. The country is Canada.
05:08:05 <shachaf> There is no continent but America and America is its country.
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05:09:07 <shachaf> elliott: http://dlang.org/property.html
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05:10:43 <elliott> shachaf: Yes, it's horrible.
05:11:26 <shachaf> elliott: What language should I use?
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05:13:00 <shachaf> elliott: Apparently I HAVE A BADGE ON STACKOVERFLOW TOO.
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05:15:50 <shachaf> Why is that 160 lowercase?
05:27:08 <NihilistDandy> Surely you mean Hasksec, the purely functional branch of Lulzsec
05:27:42 <NihilistDandy> You'll hear about their exploits when the thunk chain finally resolves.
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05:37:23 <Sgeo> I've been told that the problem with D is that there are two different incompatible standard libraries
05:46:36 <elliott> @tell oerjan your paren monoid was invented by sigfpe http://blog.sigfpe.com/2009/01/beyond-regular-expressions-more.html
05:46:54 <shachaf> You could have invented paren monoids.
05:52:40 <shachaf> elliott: Why is strace so good?
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06:02:41 <kmc> shachaf, cool! i'm glad people like the FAQ
06:02:56 <kmc> glad not just because i wrote it, though that's a large part of why
06:03:18 <shachaf> It has terrible Google ranking.
06:03:33 * kmc no good at SEO
06:03:46 <kmc> i could link it from my blog
06:03:51 <kmc> but even i am not that shameless
06:04:08 <shachaf> What's wrong with doing that?
06:04:20 <shachaf> Maybe you can sneak it into your "why I left #haskell" post.
06:04:28 <kmc> my blog has reasonable ranking on a variety of searches, though i haven't controlled for google customized results
06:04:41 <kmc> for me it's actually not on the first page
06:04:45 * shachaf is searching in Chromium Incognito Mode.
06:04:48 <elliott> well i clicked it a lot so
06:05:00 <shachaf> It's not on the first page here either.
06:05:29 <shachaf> On the other hand Bing has it as the second result.
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06:11:54 <shachaf> kmc: Did you see edwardk's exciting Haskell adventures? <edwardk> elliott: monoid :: (a -> a -> a) -> a -> (Monoid a => r) -> r
06:12:45 <elliott> kmc: I'm optimising edwardk's library!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
06:12:57 <shachaf> Isn't that, like, a groovy type, dude?
06:14:31 <Sgeo> coppro, there are more than two standard libraries for D?
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07:30:38 <elliott> @tell oerjan btw my optimised implementation has (will soon) made (make) it into reflection; it's all packed into bytes now
07:31:13 <Taneb> What's the context of the topic?
07:32:47 <oklopol> sigfpe didn't really invent anything there
07:33:04 <elliott> oklopol: my definition of invent is loose
07:34:37 <oklopol> "The syntactic monoid of the Dyck language is isomorphic to the bicyclic semigroup by virtue of the properties of Cl([) and Cl(]) described above."
07:34:42 <oklopol> -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyck_language
07:35:04 <elliott> oklopol: i don't require originality or even lack of prior knowledge to invent something
07:35:35 <oklopol> oerjan: congrats on your invention by elliott's def
07:54:38 <monqy> congratulation elliotts
07:54:58 <elliott> this am a whole THREE hackage package im contribute 2 now
07:56:35 <elliott> monqy: https://raw.github.com/ehird/reflection/master/Data/Reflection.hs look at my arte
07:57:13 <monqy> oh i remember that
07:57:22 <monqy> or at least something that looks an awful lot like that
07:57:30 <elliott> monqy: Yes, this time I rewrote it and it's going in the Actual Package.
07:57:47 <elliott> Which currently looks like this instead: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/reflection/0.8/doc/html/src/Data-Reflection.html
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08:19:52 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sat Apr 7 09:20:19
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08:23:05 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
08:23:11 <lambdabot> elliott said 2h 36m 33s ago: your paren monoid was invented by sigfpe http://blog.sigfpe.com/2009/01/beyond-regular-expressions-more.html
08:23:11 <lambdabot> elliott said 52m 33s ago: btw my optimised implementation has (will soon) made (make) it into reflection; it's all packed into bytes now
08:24:15 <oerjan> oerjan: i should suspect it was known back in the 50s-60s, like everything else
08:24:52 <oerjan> elliott: i blame shachaf
08:24:52 <elliott> oerjan: it made it in; before: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/reflection/0.8/doc/html/src/Data-Reflection.html; after: https://raw.github.com/ekmett/reflection/master/Data/Reflection.hs
08:25:20 <oerjan> shachaf: what, a monoid?
08:25:46 <elliott> oerjan: (even before is simplified since i suggested he simply reify the pointer as one number rather than as a list of numbers)
08:26:20 <oerjan> shachaf: *semirings, is that * like in C*-algebra?
08:27:17 <oerjan> elliott: but you are still not using the obvious direct core construction which logically _must_ exist, right? >:)
08:27:31 <elliott> oerjan: i plan to try it out (with Cmm, since you can't write core)
08:27:33 <elliott> (as a foreign import prim)
08:27:40 <elliott> but i'm trying to get the same effect with unsafeCoerce first
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08:28:08 <elliott> what you see there is as direct as you can get in "portable" haskell, though
08:28:21 <elliott> make a stable pointer, assign one type per byte, reflect it back, dereference it, free it
08:30:19 <oerjan> well, if it also works in jhc (that's the only other haskell implementation worth mentioning these days, right?) that's probably good
08:32:16 <oerjan> otherwise, i'd sort of expect core would be more long term stable than a lower level?
08:32:54 <oerjan> but of course they probably have no compuction changing that if they need some new type feature or whatever
08:34:14 <elliott> oerjan: um it uses TypeFamilies
08:34:18 <elliott> so it works on nothing but ghc
08:34:27 <elliott> UHC is probably more relevant than jhc
08:34:40 <elliott> oerjan: anyway, i have no idea why you continue to believe core is a viable scenario, since ghc _can not_ read core
08:34:45 <elliott> and never has been able to
08:34:49 <shachaf> elliott: Did you know the average American watches over 28 hours a day of television?
08:34:51 <elliott> it has no core frontend, full stop
08:35:14 <oerjan> elliott: but there _is_ a core plugin feature, though
08:35:39 <oerjan> i had the thought that should be possible to use
08:36:23 <elliott> oh the core-to-core pass things?
08:42:34 <elliott> oerjan: i got it working with unsafeCoerce
08:42:50 <elliott> http://hpaste.org/raw/66547 (fundeps)
08:42:53 <elliott> http://hpaste.org/raw/66550 (type families)
08:45:27 <kmc> ttants: semirings, smearings
08:46:03 <elliott> oerjan: fundep one is much nicer, type family one has weird workarounds
08:50:35 <elliott> oerjan: even simpler, thanks to edwardk: http://hpaste.org/66551
08:55:14 <oerjan> i suppose this means that a class dictionary of a single method is implemented simply as that method
08:55:29 <oerjan> with no physical wrapping
08:55:57 <oerjan> which of course makes sense for efficiency
09:04:03 <oerjan> interestingly, the "evil" unsafeCoerce version is probably easier to understand :P
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09:17:39 <elliott> oerjan: i think it might be the most terrifying 5-line module ever
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09:22:17 <elliott> oerjan: btw this evil made a benchmark go from 130ms to 6ms
09:22:27 <elliott> because instead of a stableptr etc. etc. etc. it's literally just the cost of a function call
09:23:43 <elliott> oerjan: fun fact: reflection has broken API-compatibility four times today
09:24:02 <oerjan> wait, why would the API change because of this?
09:24:45 <elliott> well at first it changed to something that only needs Rank2Types, not the optimisation stuff
09:24:59 <elliott> then he did my suggestion of removing one intermediate (exposed) layer and just reifying the pointer as a number directly
09:25:12 <elliott> then he realised that the fewer-extensions API is just a big red unsafeCoerce button
09:25:18 <elliott> so he did it with type families instead
09:25:33 <elliott> then my optimisations came in and unexported the changed, slower intermediate API
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09:38:07 <oerjan> `addquote <shachaf> elliott: It can't be as bad as C++. [...] <elliott> Oh, sure, it's better than C++. [...] <elliott> I mean, brainfuck is also better than C++...
09:38:16 <HackEgo> 840) <shachaf> elliott: It can't be as bad as C++. [...] <elliott> Oh, sure, it's better than C++. [...] <elliott> I mean, brainfuck is also better than C++...
09:46:06 <shachaf> THE JOKE IS THAT C++ IS BAD
09:47:51 <Taneb> C++ is the non-esoteric language I know 5th best
09:48:11 <Taneb> I can barely remember any of the non-esoteric language I know 3rd best
09:51:00 <kmc> shachaf knows what i'm going to say next
09:53:43 <shachaf> So speaking of C++, it looks like D is more or less trying to be "C++ Done Right" (but with GC).
09:54:01 <shachaf> The quote about svn and cvs comes to mind... But I haven't looked into it particularly deeply yet.
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10:06:23 <pikhq> shachaf: That is the expressed intent of D.
10:06:56 <elliott> kmc: What are you going to say next?
10:07:01 <kmc> that C++ is an esolang
10:07:14 <kmc> i think "C++ done right but with GC" almost misses the point of C++
10:08:42 <kmc> C++ tries to combine a very high-level style with exact, deterministic resource management and zero overhead for unused features
10:09:10 <pikhq> kmc: It's C++ with *optional* GC.
10:09:24 <pikhq> And slightly less insane and esoteric syntax and semantics.
10:09:40 <kmc> in fact bjorn stroopwafel or whatshisname says the next C++ will have optional gc
10:09:45 <kmc> except that was several c++es ago
10:10:07 <pikhq> (because everybody loves having to write a parser-interpreter-compiler)
10:10:26 <pikhq> kmc: IIRC C++11 permits a GCed implementation.
10:11:10 <kmc> C++ is memory-safe and leak-free, except for all the parts that aren't
10:11:18 <kmc> i do mean this statement to be slightly serious
10:11:59 <kmc> doing things the C++ Way is usually too cumbersome, so C++ programmers do it the C Way instead, which is why we think of C++ as a memory-unsafe, low-level language
10:12:32 <kmc> a better language designed on the same principles as C++ might reach the point where arrays and pointer casts are akin to unsafeCoerce in Haskell
10:14:59 <pikhq> C++ has design principles, beyond "attempt to obsolete C feature X and do it poorly"?
10:15:12 <kmc> i think so yes
10:15:24 <kmc> such as 'combine a very high-level style with exact, deterministic resource management and zero overhead for unused features'
10:16:10 <kmc> they failed to make the language usable in this way
10:16:23 <elliott> kmc: have you ever unsafeCoerced an instance dictionary
10:16:49 <kmc> elliott, have you ever unsafeCoerced an instance dictionary... on weed?
10:17:19 <elliott> <bitonic> MagneticDuck: you can with GHC, but you don't want to.
10:17:29 <elliott> Would people stop saying this in response to "do I need to use IO" questions?
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10:18:43 <pikhq> elliott: But it's not a good answer unless it's maximally confusing!
10:19:15 <pikhq> Also, I should probably sleep. I think the sun's about to come up.
10:19:20 <lambdabot> Local time for pikhq is Sat Apr 7 04:19:16 2012
10:19:24 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sat Apr 7 11:19:51
10:19:27 <lambdabot> Local time for kmc is Sat Apr 7 06:19:49
10:21:28 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Sat Apr 7 03:21:27 2012
10:22:42 <kmc> C++ is a bad language but it's bad in almost the opposite way of other bad languages
10:23:01 <kmc> which is why it's so interesting!
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10:34:50 <itidus20> .... ok... i guess that people left real programmers alone until they started plugging colour monitors and speakers into them :P
10:35:41 <itidus20> ahh i will restate with improvements
10:36:31 <itidus20> I guess that before graphical monitors and speakers being plugged into computers, the computers were mostly the domain of real programmers
10:36:51 <kmc> are we seriously going to talk about "real programmers"
10:37:05 <pikhq> Real programmers $meme
10:37:25 <Taneb> It was mostly the domain of academics and data crunchers and the military
10:37:41 <itidus20> by the definition that a real programmer does not require graphics or speakers to enjoy programming :P
10:37:43 <elliott> kmc: Try adjusting your definition of "we".
10:40:31 <kmc> itidus20, pro tip: talking about "real programmers" makes you sound like a total douchebag
10:43:31 <elliott> You realise everybody else just doesn't respond to him, right?
10:43:39 <kmc> maybe i should adopt this policy
10:43:54 <itidus20> ok, well, why is c++ a bad language?
10:44:08 <kmc> elliott, but someone is wrong on the internet! i can't just stand by!
10:45:40 <itidus20> maybe good programmers just happen to use bad languages
10:46:02 <kmc> some of them do
10:46:07 <kmc> some bad programmers use good languages
10:46:10 <kmc> what's your point
10:46:40 <itidus20> probably the majority of good programmers use bad languages, since the majority of coding is probably in c++ and java these days
10:46:53 <kmc> ok you just actually have no idea what you're talking about
10:47:32 <elliott> You just now realise this?
10:47:48 <kmc> well I realized it long ago for statements involving haskell
10:47:51 <itidus20> maybe c++ reminds people of the basic they grew up with on their 8bit machines designed to plug ito tvs
10:47:54 <kmc> i did not know it generalized so well
10:48:02 <kmc> yeah man, C++ and BASIC are so similar
10:48:18 <kmc> i remember that time I got screwed by multiple virtual inheritance in basic
10:48:28 <kmc> i fixed it with curiously recuring template pattern
10:48:33 <kmc> but the compile times were killer
10:49:06 <elliott> kmc: https://raw.github.com/ekmett/reflection/master/fast/Data/Reflection.hs
10:49:11 <elliott> Did I link you to that yet?
10:49:23 <kmc> everyoen is linking it
10:49:29 <kmc> i can't understand this code right now
10:49:35 <elliott> kmc: You know the reflection package, right?
10:49:39 <kmc> oh, this is different
10:49:43 <kmc> from the other thing people are linking
10:49:54 <elliott> This is the new new version.
10:49:56 <elliott> It's been rewritten twice today.
10:50:17 <elliott> Oleg took about two pages of code to do it.
10:50:25 <elliott> This one takes about 10 lines, thanks to being completely unportable.
10:50:36 <elliott> Basically, it synthesises an instance dictionary at runtime.
10:50:48 <elliott> By unsafeCoercing something with a typeclass context and passing it a value instead.
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10:53:43 <itidus20> i wasn't so bad once.. but these days when i try to concentrate on anything properly i end up with a full-blown attack of existential anxiety
10:54:18 <kmc> try doctors and pills
10:54:34 <kmc> elliott, does the 'reflection' library solve an inherently hard problem
10:54:51 <kmc> or is this another case of Haskell insanity to do something that's very easy in most languages
10:55:10 <kmc> i can see ways in which the 'reflection' solution is nicer than what you usually do in other languages
10:55:16 <elliott> kmc: Could you try and ask a more loaded question?
10:55:35 <elliott> It's not really an "external" problem, but I don't think other languages solve it well.
10:55:44 <elliott> This lets you write numeric typeclass instances for modular arithmetic.
10:55:47 <elliott> Where you decide the modulus at runtime.
10:56:11 <kmc> i would do that in Python by creating a class for numbers mod n and overloading arithmetic on it
10:56:15 <elliott> Here's another interesting example: https://raw.github.com/ekmett/reflection/master/examples/Monoid.hs
10:56:27 <elliott> kmc: You have to specify the modulus every time you create such an object.
10:56:36 <elliott> With this, it's just: (2 + 2) `modulo` 6
10:56:54 <elliott> The configuration is implicitly plumbed.
10:57:12 <elliott> kmc: (And with that solution, you can have two objects with differing modulopodes being added together. Nasty.)
10:57:22 <elliott> That's just like bundling the modulus with the value and giving that a Num instance.
10:57:46 <kmc> except that in Python you don't expect static checking ;P
10:57:58 <elliott> Even then you still have to specify the modulus every time.
10:58:03 <elliott> Anyway, that Monoid example is cool..
10:58:31 <elliott> Specify a function and a value, and suddenly you have a monoid (M a s) (for unknown s, like runST), and M :: a -> M a s.
10:58:39 <elliott> Then it extracts out the a for you at the end.
10:59:23 <elliott> The best part of the new implementation of reflection is that it shows a typeclass with no instances, and a function that gives you an instance for it.
11:00:35 <elliott> kmc: also come on, it's turning a value into a type and back again, that's inherently cool
11:01:08 -!- MoALTz_ has joined.
11:01:08 <elliott> kmc: oh, another use-case is for fixed precision arithmetic
11:01:18 <elliott> you can have one fixed precision type that works with arbitrary precisions at runtime
11:01:27 <elliott> and you can't mix two values with different precisions etc.
11:01:35 <elliott> because they contain the token representing the precision in their type
11:01:48 <elliott> (and you can mix and match multiple such precisions at once)
11:03:58 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
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11:15:16 <elliott> what time is it in america hoover
11:15:17 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sat Apr 7 12:15:44
11:17:16 <itidus20> after some thought, it seems to me that what i know colloquially as the fibonacci function is an iterator of the fibonacci sequence
11:19:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Pfft, the Fibonacci function is F(n) = (((1+sqrt(5))/2)^n-((1-sqrt(5))/2))/sqrt(5).
11:19:53 <itidus20> best file my comment away as "You realise everybody else just doesn't respond to him, right?"
11:20:35 <elliott> Hey kmc. How can I cast String to Just String?
11:21:32 <itidus20> ultimately, no matter how sincere i may sound, unless i actually do something meaningful between my posts, i will be repeating the same nonsense again and again
11:42:21 <elliott> Alright, who's in Maryland?
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13:16:49 <Taneb> Isn't that just 0xFF?
13:17:03 <Taneb> Assuming bitwise inversal and or-ing
13:17:39 <itidus20> i tried it on windows calculator to see what would happen
13:17:53 <Phantom_Hoover> (It's 0x2B, assuming C syntax; ~ is bitwise not, ! is logical.)
13:18:17 <Taneb> Well, I guess that solves Hamlet's problem
13:18:51 <itidus20> this is why i didn't program the nuclear launch computer
13:19:21 <Phantom_Hoover> That is not my foremost reason not to let you program a nuclear launch computer.
13:21:18 <itidus20> whoa.. i just had an amusing thought.. a sprite in a video game riding a bomb drop
13:30:31 <olsner> I wonder what it means for a sprite to ride something, and what a bomb drop is
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13:38:51 <elliott> kmc: btw, the paper goes into some depth about the advantages of reflection's technique and its applications: http://www.cs.rutgers.edu/~ccshan/prepose/prepose.pdf
13:39:00 <elliott> (despite having an overly-complicated implementation)
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14:40:13 <Sgeo> This is lulzy http://techpp.com/2009/06/29/gmail-increases-attachment-size-limit-to-25mb-but-with-a-catch/
14:40:30 <elliott> i don't click links described as lulzy
14:40:51 <Sgeo> What if I described it as dumb?
14:41:19 <elliott> i lied i already clicked it
14:42:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
14:42:27 <elliott> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/reflection/1.1.2/doc/html/Data-Reflection.html yay docs are up
14:43:34 <Sgeo> Or I could have been influenced by other commentors...
14:45:09 -!- azaq23 has joined.
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14:46:04 <Sgeo> One comment yelled at all the other comments for misreading the article
14:53:00 -!- azaq23 has joined.
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15:10:35 <Sgeo> Awwww, my popular Twitter account is now obsolete
15:14:07 <Sgeo> http://www.remote.org/jochen/humor/c1/windows-tp.html The Internet Oracle is always awesome
15:47:00 <coppro> Sgei: I know nothing of D
15:52:57 -!- Taneb has joined.
15:54:54 <Taneb> One more day until I can go on Wikipedia!
15:59:02 <Taneb> (without feeling guilty)
15:59:29 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:00:48 -!- oerjan has set topic: Do you like rotating mazes? Do you like the other idea? | I do not like rotating mazes. I do not like them Mr. Z | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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16:07:00 <oerjan> <pikhq> Also, I should probably sleep. I think the sun's about to come up. <-- the demise of the vampikhq
16:08:56 <oerjan> <itidus20> I guess that before graphical monitors and speakers being plugged into computers, the computers were mostly the domain of real programmers <-- the sentence was funnier when it implied that they were plugged into the programmers. hth.
16:10:24 <oerjan> i think it took several years even after that before ordinary people started using them.
16:10:41 <oerjan> s/ordinary/non-technical/
16:11:52 -!- atrapado has joined.
16:11:53 <olsner> I think it started with that whole "multimedia" business
16:15:30 * oerjan realizes he didn't finish reading the logs last time, and has them in two tabs
16:17:47 <oerjan> elliott: so thanks for fulfilling my reflection dreams, slightly modified
16:18:52 <elliott> the docs are up and everything too: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/reflection/1.1.2/doc/html/Data-Reflection.html
16:19:10 <elliott> "Nothing left to take away" and all that.
16:21:36 -!- Taneb has joined.
16:25:01 * oerjan has some slight doubts about the following line in the doc box: Safe Haskell Safe-Infered
16:26:07 <elliott> oerjan: i submitted a pull request to make it Trustworthy actually
16:26:10 <oerjan> btw shouldn't that be inferred
16:26:10 <elliott> the interface is totally safe
16:26:23 <elliott> we are probably doomed forever to stick with it like "referer"
16:26:54 <oerjan> unless someone fixes it.
16:27:01 <elliott> that's probably what they said about referer
16:27:47 <oerjan> yes, but cabal doesn't have multiple competing implementations, does it
16:28:01 -!- asiekierka has left ("Wychodzi").
16:28:56 <oerjan> which means it still can be fixed
16:30:11 <elliott> oerjan: but that would be like editing other people's comments on a wiki.
16:30:13 <oerjan> argh there is no way i'm not disconnecting soon (or right now)
16:30:23 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Sat Apr 7 18:30:22 2012
16:31:06 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
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16:33:37 <oerjan> ping says no packet loss
16:33:53 <elliott> maybe it's an ntnu problem?
16:34:20 <oerjan> that's the thing i've never managed to find out conclusively :(
16:34:53 <elliott> oerjan: well it would not be the most difficult of hypotheses to test...
16:34:59 <oerjan> but _before_ i changed the router, the old one used to have more severe disconnections
16:35:18 <oerjan> (it reset completely, while now i can reconnect as soon as i see i've disconnected)
16:36:13 <oerjan> elliott: sure, i just have no idea how. usually these disconnections are out of blue, although clearly connected to some kind of general traffic jam level
16:36:21 <elliott> oerjan: use an alternate IRC client for a day
16:36:22 * oerjan not good with computers
16:36:24 <elliott> if it disconnects, it's not nvg
16:36:30 <elliott> you don't even have to use it as your prime one
16:36:33 <elliott> just keep it open in a tab in the background
16:36:44 <oerjan> elliott: oh, i tried that. the web one. then one day it disconnected.
16:36:58 <elliott> well i meant, don't even use it
16:37:07 <elliott> just see whether it disconnects with the same frequency as nvg
16:38:17 <oerjan> i discovered there's one annoying thing with using the webchat ... IE won't release its memory properly until _all_ its windows are closed.
16:38:42 <elliott> fair enough. i mean, you could just download xchat and minimise it to the tray
16:38:51 <elliott> even telnet would work if not for PINGs :P
16:39:59 <oerjan> i tried lowering putty's keepalive frequency to 30 s. i had this feeling it helped, but a few days ago it started again.
16:40:27 <oerjan> part of the problem is that the problem happens in bursts, with weeks between.
16:41:06 <elliott> have you tried contacting NVG or your ISP? :P
16:41:06 <oerjan> elliott: well the thing is that i can reconnect immediately, which means that if it's a timeout it must be just barely hit, no?
16:41:30 <elliott> oerjan: sure. you are not timing out from the irc perspective though
16:41:36 <oerjan> in fact it often affects only one of the windows when i have two open
16:41:47 <elliott> oerjan: a workaround would be to run irssi in screen.
16:41:54 <elliott> then you can reconnect without missing messages.
16:42:02 <oerjan> elliott: almost as annoying, really.
16:42:31 <elliott> well, have you noticed any networking problems other than nvg?
16:42:43 <elliott> i could give you an ssh account on solidity to keep open to see if _it_ disconnects too
16:43:07 <oerjan> no, that's the thing, other than webchat sometimes disconnecting
16:44:27 <oerjan> oh and that mysterious thing, hm
16:44:39 <Vorpal> <oerjan> i discovered there's one annoying thing with using the webchat ... IE won't release its memory properly until _all_ its windows are closed. <-- why are you using IE though?
16:44:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
16:45:37 <elliott> Vorpal: you just bought yourself one free kick
16:46:48 <Vorpal> as you can see I didn't criticise it. After all I had to use IE at times (on computers where nothing else was available and installing custom programs wasn't allowed)
16:47:05 <Vorpal> or to download a better browser
16:47:54 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:47:58 <elliott> oerjan has used IE for years, i'm sure you must have noticed before
16:48:14 <Vorpal> hm possibly, if so I forgot that though
16:50:00 <oerjan> well i guess we'll find out now
16:50:33 <oerjan> unless the problem decides to disappear entirely from the nvg window as well
16:52:52 <oerjan> oh, one annoying thing about the webchat window is that it gives no indication of when it _has_ disconnected, until i try typing something
16:54:37 <elliott> oerjan: it should do in the server tab?
16:55:29 <oerjan> you mean the tab title will become dark red?
16:55:38 <oerjan> i certainly don't recall that.
16:57:47 <oerjan> maybe it happens if i'm kicked out, but my browser first has to notice anything has happened...
16:58:51 <oerjan> i have a disturbing hunch that _if_ the disconnects are related to what my housemates are doing on their computers - they just stopped watching a program
17:00:53 <elliott> i keep forgetting oerjan lives with people
17:01:06 <elliott> also, that sentence doesn't parse
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17:01:54 <Vorpal> oerjan, watching a program on web tv or what?
17:02:23 <oerjan> Vorpal: whatever. he just confirmed they'd been doing that via the net, anyway.
17:09:36 -!- oerjan_ has joined.
17:11:42 <oerjan_> no. or too much, depending :P
17:12:21 <elliott> oerjan_: you should contact your ISP, then.
17:13:57 <oerjan_> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
17:14:20 <elliott> or get someone without a caps lock and A key to do it for you.
17:15:37 <oerjan_> there should be a way to ask a tcp connection to be just a bit more resilient against disconnections :(
17:16:07 <elliott> I expect TCP/IP are working just fine. what is broken is either your router or one of your ISP's routers
17:16:16 <oerjan_> well i guess there might be a bug somewhere that means the connection really _is_ permanently lost
17:16:18 <elliott> if they are not doing TCP/IP correctly or have severe connection defects...
17:17:19 <oerjan_> the router is, of course, new, and the previous router was far worse.
17:18:24 <elliott> I would yell at the ISP and, failing that, switch.
17:19:00 <oerjan_> my landlady, who would think TCP is a washing machine brand, is the contracter.
17:19:20 <Vorpal> <elliott> I expect TCP/IP are working just fine. what is broken is either your router or one of your ISP's routers <-- might be worth capturing data with wireshark and look for any ICMP packets (such as destination unreachable and so forth)
17:20:20 <elliott> oerjan_: oh you cannot choose?
17:20:41 <elliott> Vorpal: i assign you to teach oerjan_ how to do that.
17:21:25 <Vorpal> also I have no clue how to do that under windows
17:21:30 <oerjan_> Vorpal: don't worry, i won't force you to
17:22:07 <Vorpal> does wireshark even work under windows?
17:22:45 <Vorpal> well, there is a windows installer download, no idea if the actual capturing part works under windows, or if it is just the analysis part
17:22:58 <olsner> Vorpal: linux works under windows, so why wouldn't wireshark
17:23:34 <elliott> oerjan_: are you *still* logreading :D
17:32:56 <Vorpal> olsner, might be tricky to capture in promisc mode under windows for all I know
17:33:31 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:34:05 <oerjan_> although yes i'm still logreading
17:34:58 <ais523> hi, and currently catching up stuff that happened while I was offline, do you consider that busy?
17:35:13 <elliott> well, I have things to say relevant to a portion of that
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17:54:03 <oerjan_> <oklopol> oerjan: congrats on your invention by elliott's def <-- thank you.
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18:02:21 <Taneb> Too much chilli :/
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18:09:59 <shachaf> elliott: Now that you're famous, are you going to leave this channel for greener pastures?
18:10:06 <ais523> > let 1 + 1 = 3 in 1 + 1
18:10:08 <Taneb> (elliott's famous?)
18:10:18 <ais523> ^ (the Haskell equivalent of "where elliott = monqy")
18:10:27 <Taneb> > 1 + 1 where 1 + 1 = 3
18:10:28 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `where'
18:10:45 <elliott> ais523: "where elliott = monqy" is valid Haskell
18:10:49 <elliott> foo = elliott where elliott = monqy
18:11:30 <ais523> > 1 + 1 where 1 + 1 = 3
18:11:31 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `where'
18:11:42 <ais523> elliott: doesn't seem to pattern-match, though
18:11:56 <elliott> you just used it in the wrong context
18:11:58 <shachaf> ais523: "where" isn't an expression -- it's associated with bindings.
18:12:24 <shachaf> > 1 + elliott where hi elliott
18:12:25 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `where'
18:12:50 <ais523> let elliott = monqy where monqy = 4 in elliott
18:12:58 <ais523> > let elliott = monqy where monqy = 4 in elliott
18:13:58 <elliott> > let nobody = "nobody"; monqy = nobody; somebody = elliott where elliott = monqy in somebody
18:14:36 -!- zzo38 has left ("Not yet").
18:15:00 <shachaf> > nobody move where nobody = monqy
18:15:00 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `where'
18:15:57 <elliott> * zzo38 (~zzo38@24.207.49.17) has left #esoteric ("Not yet")
18:16:38 -!- pandu has joined.
18:16:49 <shachaf> fix hi = let monqy = hi monqy in monqy
18:17:08 <lambdabot> hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi ...
18:17:14 <HackEgo> pandu: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
18:18:26 <HackEgo> @echo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
18:18:28 <pandu> I'm just looking for some cool channels
18:18:38 <Taneb> #esoteric is the coolest channel
18:18:52 <pandu> I've toyed with BF before
18:19:03 <pandu> but not too much else
18:19:07 <pandu> its fun reading about these
18:19:13 <shachaf> pandu: Have you considered making A BF DERIVATIVE?
18:19:32 <Taneb> It makes a ghost of a vacuum cleaner appear before you
18:19:43 <shachaf> All you do is substitute "hi" for "<" and "monqy" for ">" and so on, and you've invented YOUR VERY OWN PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE!
18:19:50 <pandu> I've added some language extensions to mine
18:20:20 <lambdabot> hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi ...
18:20:47 <Taneb> It's sort of from Lisp
18:20:58 <Taneb> It's also in the developement version of BYOB (Snap)
18:21:10 <shachaf> pandu: call-with-current-continuation
18:21:11 <Taneb> Which I'm likely the only one to have heard of it in here
18:21:15 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call-with-current-continuation
18:21:15 <lambdabot> Title: Call-with-current-continuation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
18:22:05 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @echo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
18:22:06 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = "freenode", msgLBName = "lambdabot", msgPrefix = "HackEgo!codu@codu.org", msgCommand = "PRIVMSG", msgParams = ["#esoteric",":lambdabot: @echo: Welcome to the
18:22:06 <lambdabot> international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page"]} rest:"Welcome to the international hub for
18:22:06 <lambdabot> esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page"
18:23:43 <Taneb> pandu, try creating a language that's as different to brainfuck as you can make it!
18:23:55 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = "freenode", msgLBName = "lambdabot", msgPrefix = "shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com", msgCommand = "PRIVMSG", msgParams = ["#esoteric",":@echo @echo"]}
18:24:09 <pandu> I really like minimal languages
18:24:24 <elliott> pandu: Look at our featured language, then. :p
18:24:27 <elliott> (On http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page.)
18:24:30 <pandu> looking at it right now
18:26:57 <elliott> WORLD CELEBRITY oerjan_ is available to answer all questions /// :p
18:27:47 <Taneb> I knew I saw something like your name on a van, elliott
18:27:53 <Taneb> http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.icountydurham.co.uk%2Fprofile%2F272906%2FConsett%2FElliot-Hird-and-Partners%2F&ei=DIeAT_j8IeWm0AWBhqXACA&usg=AFQjCNH00jAyLRzeW8upHv13Smbfn0meiw&sig2=USDEHmiPcnGV7qjuQh9mIg
18:28:26 <Sgeo> Argh I keep seeing conflicting information about whether Tylenol is safe on an empty stomach
18:28:39 <Sgeo> Although I'm fairly certain it's safer than other painkillers in that situation
18:28:59 <elliott> Sgeo: No. You will die. Permanently.
18:29:18 <Sgeo> elliott, hmm, is there a way to die temporarily?
18:30:08 <elliott> Sgeo: That's taking Tylenol in any other circumstance.
18:30:13 * oerjan_ investigates the channel walls carefully
18:31:02 <ais523> what's the main active ingredient in tylenol?
18:31:16 <ais523> it doesn't exist under that name in the UK, although I'm reasonably sure it's something I've heard of
18:31:22 <ais523> under a different name
18:31:36 <Taneb> I have SO MUCH paracetamol
18:31:39 <elliott> see, what it does is, kills all the pain molecules
18:31:39 <Taneb> It's not even funny
18:31:48 <ais523> as far as I know, paracetamol is safe unless you overdose, in which case it's pretty lethal
18:31:55 <elliott> usually the last burst of pain is enough to revive you
18:32:12 <elliott> but without food on your stomach, there's nothing for the pain to eat to charge up that last blast.
18:32:32 <ais523> shachaf: how did you not figure that out yet?
18:32:35 <ais523> there's quite a lot of evidence
18:32:38 <Sgeo> Although at least some websites of perhaps less than good repute suggest that liver function may be impaired by not eating properly
18:32:38 <Taneb> ais523 is a Birminghamian, iirc
18:32:48 <elliott> ais523 is a Birminghidgeaux.
18:32:53 <ais523> I think the actual word is Brummy
18:32:57 <elliott> I don't know the correct name, so Birminghidgeaux it is.
18:32:59 <ais523> but I don't really use it much
18:33:01 <Taneb> So, how many people are there in a place which is named .*ham ?
18:33:17 <ais523> quite a lot, it's a pretty common town naming pattern in the UK
18:33:24 <olsner> Taneb: somewhere between three people and everyone
18:33:27 -!- pandu has left ("LIST").
18:33:37 <Taneb> Okay, if we narrow it down to people in this channel
18:33:48 <HackEgo> Hexham is a European town. There are five people in Hexham, and at least two of them are in this channel. Ngevd runs the student board.
18:34:05 <shachaf> Ngevd runs the student board, and elliott is school?
18:34:10 <ais523> I thought it was "there are two people in Hexham, and at least five of them are in this channel"
18:34:17 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least five of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
18:34:23 <HackEgo> Norway is the suburb capital of Sweden. It's where the Nobel Peace Prize is announced.
18:34:40 <HackEgo> Sweden is the suburb capital of Norway. It's where all the Nobel prizes are announced, except the Math Prize.
18:35:43 <ais523> elliott: oh, it was in the finland entry
18:35:44 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
18:35:47 <HackEgo> elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things?
18:35:47 <oerjan_> shachaf: don't worry, deleting it is also traditional
18:35:54 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least five of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
18:35:55 <elliott> `run echo 'hi monqy' >wisdom/monqy
18:36:13 <elliott> `learn elliott will block the next person to modify this entry.
18:36:16 <HackEgo> ais523 is ais523. This topic may retroactively become more informative if or when Feather is invented.
18:36:18 <ais523> wait, that mentions Feather, doesn't it?
18:36:46 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/learn: 4: cannot create wisdom/¯\(°_o)/¯: Directory nonexistent \ I knew that.
18:36:48 <elliott> that'll create the wrong entry
18:36:53 <elliott> `run echo '¯\(°_o)/¯ feather?' >wisdom/feather
18:37:00 <Vorpal> "Directory nonexistent \ I knew that."
18:37:24 <Vorpal> your error checking is fail
18:37:24 <elliott> `learn Europe is the capital of Hexham.
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18:40:28 <oerjan_> that's not the right format
18:40:42 <elliott> <elliott> the shrug is retroactive
18:41:21 <oerjan_> `learn elliott threatens to block me all the time anyway.
18:43:13 <elliott> oerjan_: did you finish logreading? :P
18:43:40 <oerjan_> why, yes, now i'm on to the wikipedia frontpage
18:44:07 <Taneb> 4 hours 26 minutes, goddammit
18:44:36 <oerjan_> Taneb: make sure your first visit is appropriately Easter-related.
18:44:41 <elliott> Taneb: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
18:44:48 <olsner> how long does it take to read the entirety of wikipedia?
18:47:02 <oerjan_> `run mkdir wisdom/¯\(°_o); learn ¯\(°_o)/¯ feather?
18:47:04 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `)' \ bash: -c: line 0: `mkdir wisdom/¯\(°_o); learn ¯\(°_o)/¯ feather?'
18:47:33 <ais523> oerjan_: you're probably missing quotes
18:48:38 <oerjan_> `run mkdir 'wisdom/¯\(°_o)'; learn '¯\(°_o)/¯ feather?'
18:49:08 <elliott> `run echo 'see ¯\(°_o)/¯' >wisdom/feather
18:49:22 <Taneb> On another note, why is the logo for the wiki what it is?
18:49:52 <Taneb> This isn't giving me an answer....
18:50:01 <Taneb> It's just making me ashamed and in pain
18:50:47 <oerjan_> `run echo "The wiki logo is three limes because graue found a picture of three limes and liked it." >wisdom/logo
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18:52:31 <oerjan_> yes, you can always trust HackEgo's wisdom.
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18:57:53 <Taneb> Okay, I live for now
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19:22:17 <zzo38> I think you can have a monad for a final object, and a comonad for an initial object, in any category. Do you know? (I do have an example in a category from a digraph, and in Haskell (although some people disagree in Haskell))
19:23:22 <Taneb> On the subject of places that end in "ham", I'm going to be in Durham for a bit this summer
19:25:28 <zzo38> If you have a digraph with A->C and B->C then in its category you have C a final object; the endofunctor changes all objects to C, and all morphisms to the identity morphism on C; return is the single path from whatever to C and join is also the identity morphism on C
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19:55:45 <elliott> ais523: shachaf: zzo38: Welcome to excellent explode terrain. Please begin services.
19:56:21 <elliott> Please begin services.Please begin services.Please begin services.
19:56:55 <olsner> elliott: Please begin services.
19:57:17 <zzo38> What services do you mean?
19:57:40 <elliott> Services of excellent explode terrain. Please begin services
19:58:03 <olsner> please explode services excellently
19:58:14 <olsner> services, begin explode please
19:59:42 <elliott> Welcome. Please beginning services
19:59:51 <elliott> Please realign calibration metre
20:00:33 <elliott> Welcome. Yes, Thank you. : ) My home does not eat. Yet, but I feel that in
20:00:59 <olsner> My home doesn't eat either. Yet, anyway.
20:01:24 <elliott> Please atheist management.
20:01:33 <zzo38> "Does not eat"? Don't you mean "does not compute"?
20:01:45 <elliott> No . I 'm never mistake in saturday. Start computer on hello.
20:01:55 <olsner> computing is not eating, therefore elliott's home computes
20:02:14 <zzo38> echo "Hello, World!"
20:02:50 <elliott> Please analyse your welcoming message text text message text welcPlease insert floppy 441A. Please begin services
20:03:00 <kmc> stand by for transmission
20:03:33 <HackEgo> The wiki logo is three limes because graue found a picture of three limes and liked it.
20:05:30 <elliott> Please hurt everybodys feelings, Thanks
20:07:50 <zzo38> Suck dirty vacuum cleaner
20:07:55 <oerjan_> Trombone player replaced by accordion player
20:08:31 <zzo38> oerjan_: Then you will need a different music; if the music is meant for trombone then it won't be played as well on accordian
20:08:52 <oerjan_> sorry, must play same music
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20:33:19 <Sgeo> Facebook can be bizarre at times.
20:37:19 <RocketJSquirrel> OTHER than the fact that the concept defies physics, why do WiiMotes not have velocitometers :(
20:37:36 <elliott> It is impossible to measure velociraptors.
20:38:05 <ais523> surely a velocitometer is possible for standard use, due to them being surrounded by air not vacuum?
20:38:14 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Have you seen some HASKELL i HELPED WRITE<lowercase space>TODAY?
20:38:20 <elliott> Had to lowercase bits in the middle to get the emphasis right.
20:38:36 <Sgeo> Facebook's relationship stuff is very asymmetrical :(
20:38:40 <elliott> BEHOLD MORTALS https://raw.github.com/ehird/reflection/master/fast/Data/Reflection.hs Wait did I point monqy to that yet.
20:38:53 <monqy> you [pinted me to that laslt night
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20:39:13 <Sgeo> Is monqy drunk or just being devoured by the typo monster?
20:39:33 <olsner> he's drunk on typo monster blood
20:39:35 <elliott> monqy: are you sure it was the same one
20:39:38 <elliott> the pointer one is old hat
20:40:09 <olsner> hmm, this can't be right, can it? reflect :: proxy s -> a
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20:40:28 <elliott> olsner: it accepts proxy s for any proxy and returns an a
20:40:34 <elliott> obviously, it can't actually look at the value it gets, due to parametricity
20:40:41 <elliott> it's just to make the types work out -- so that "s" is referenced there
20:40:46 <elliott> usually, you will use it with proxy = Proxy
20:40:47 <olsner> oh, proxy is a type variable?
20:40:51 <elliott> where Proxy is data Proxy t = Proxy
20:41:01 <elliott> but it's sometimes convenient to use it for proxys that aren't Proxy without translating them
20:41:25 <elliott> reify gives you a Proxy, not a proxy, though; it's all very well accepting any value, but producing an any-value is significantly harder :)
20:41:54 <olsner> just unsafeCoerce from Proxy :)
20:42:18 <elliott> olsner: hey, this safe is externally pure!
20:42:41 <elliott> this stuff is actually useful, believe it or not
20:43:01 <elliott> https://raw.github.com/ehird/reflection/master/examples/Monoid.hs here's an example of what you can do with it: an instance whose behaviour is determined at runtime
20:43:37 <elliott> http://hpaste.org/66565 -- basic modular arithmetic implementation where the modulus is encoded in the type (preventing mixing of values from different "modular contexts") and determined at runtime, but you don't have to pass it around everywhere and can use numeric literals
20:43:51 <elliott> (it's a very streamlined implementation of http://www.cs.rutgers.edu/~ccshan/prepose/prepose.pdf)
20:45:18 <olsner> I don't quite understand any of that
20:45:38 <elliott> maybe the old implementation will enlighten you https://raw.github.com/ehird/reflection/master/slow/Data/Reflection.hs :p
20:45:56 <olsner> hmm, a function like withMonoid is pretty neat, so I'll have to take the "any" back ... let's say "most" instead
20:46:34 <elliott> the paper does a good job of explaining it, you just have to remember that their whole hierarchy of successively more powerful reifiers is all flattened with this, we just have one thing that reifies anything, fast
20:47:41 <elliott> olsner: this is also neat, but more evil https://raw.github.com/ehird/reflection/master/examples/Constraints.hs
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20:47:51 <elliott> (will make no sense if you don't grok the new ConstraintKinds stuff)
20:47:55 <elliott> I didn't write those examples btw, edwardk did
20:48:26 <elliott> (he also wrote that final stripped down implementation there, my original hack was a few lines longer)
20:48:43 <olsner> like the monoid example but for any type class automagically?
20:49:10 <elliott> no, still needs manual work, cf. the Eq stuff at the bottom
20:49:16 <elliott> the evil here is that it eliminates the "M" lifting step
20:49:24 <elliott> by coercing the instance into one for the target type itself
20:49:31 <elliott> obviously this goes haywire if you already have an instance for the same class/type
20:49:35 <elliott> but if you don't then it's neat :p
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20:51:59 <elliott> olsner: anyway, what the http://hpaste.org/66565 thing means is that you can say (2+2) `modulo` 3 and it does what you expect, except that it's not just mod, it evaluates the LHS as a fully modular arithmetic type
20:52:02 <elliott> i.e. modding at each operation
20:56:40 <oerjan_> elliott: hm modulusProxy in that could be just id >:)
20:57:39 <elliott> oerjan_: that's one of the examples of why it's convenient but i forgot to use it heh
21:07:02 <olsner> elliott: god nictihget
21:07:17 <elliott> i have so many sweat drams
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21:11:16 <zzo38> That data Proxy t = Proxy; is also what I have recently called Finalize, as in the Finalize monad for any category having a final object
21:21:44 <zzo38> I don't really like the way your dynamically constructed monoid and stuff is implemented; but there probably is no better way in Haskell.
21:25:18 <zzo38> I would do like this (which doesn't work in Haskell): data DynMonoid (x :: *) (mempty :: {x}) (mappend :: {x -> x -> x}) = DynMonoid x;
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21:26:16 <oerjan_> zzo38: the whole reflection package exists to get around the lack of dynamic instances in haskell
21:27:13 <oerjan_> even in the original inspiring paper, oleg etc. suggested building a better method into the language
21:27:25 <zzo38> oerjan_: I know that; but still its implementation is not so good in my opinion. It is why I wanted to invent the new programming language instead, with new things differences, let's make up the working group to argue about it too.
21:28:00 <zzo38> Using the declaration I gave, then you will have a type (DynMonoid Int {0} {(+)})
21:30:03 <zzo38> The kind of DynMonoid then becomes (*(x) -> {x} -> {x -> x -> x} -> *) possibly the syntax for (*(x)) could be changed if you don't like that syntax, though.
21:30:35 <oerjan_> ais523: is there some way in mediawiki to insert a pre block "detented" into a nested bulleted list without otherwise interrupting the list nesting? some of the parts of [[List of ideas]] look rather ugly...
21:31:04 <ais523> oerjan_: yes, write the bulleted list using HTML syntax rather than MediaWiki syntax
21:31:19 <ais523> alternatively, there used to be some crazy trick using unbalanced tags, not sure if it still works
21:35:53 * oerjan_ thinks he is in over his head on that
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21:44:05 <zzo38> I have ((Node -> Node) -> PageObjects) and (Node -> m Node) I try to make (m ((Node -> Node) -> PageObjects)) but it seem is not possible? Is it? Is there alternatives ways to make something like that?
21:46:42 <oerjan_> zzo38: um, isn't just applying return to the first one?
21:47:37 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7XR9yH2ETk
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21:50:41 <olsner> Sgeo: makes me think of that law about parodies
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21:55:54 <zzo38> It doesn't seems to work
21:57:04 <zzo38> oerjan_: That doesn't work, sorry
21:57:30 <olsner> you need to change ((Node -> Node) -> PageObjects) to ((Node -> m Node) -> m PageObjects) or something
21:59:08 <zzo38> olsner: But then I need (m ((Node -> Node) -> PageObjects)) from that. The other alternative would be to change the datatypes to something else
22:00:51 <olsner> I suspect that's not what you want :)
22:03:52 <zzo38> I do not even know any other datatypes that would work here, though.
22:04:12 <olsner> I don't really know enough to say... but I'll assume the reason you have a (Node -> m Node) instead of (Node -> Node) is that your node-frobler has some side effects?
22:05:13 <olsner> then the pageobjectifier needs to thread those effects through in the same monad, or it can't get at the returned Nodes
22:05:20 <oerjan_> `echo "XY problem is probably not what you are really after. Try asking about your real underlying problem instead." > 'wisdom/xy problem'
22:05:23 <HackEgo> "XY problem is probably not what you are really after. Try asking about your real underlying problem instead." > 'wisdom/xy problem'
22:05:33 <oerjan_> `run echo "XY problem is probably not what you are really after. Try asking about your real underlying problem instead." > 'wisdom/xy problem'
22:05:40 <zzo38> olsner: Well, it can; usually Writer but other things can be too
22:05:45 <olsner> oerjan_: pff, this is the channel where we go ahead and solve the wrong problem because we can
22:05:47 <HackEgo> XY problem is probably not what you are really after. Try asking about your real underlying problem instead.
22:06:18 <olsner> actually, solving the right problem is probably more boring and therefore something to avoid
22:06:24 <zzo38> olsner: Yes this is the channel that even that is possible.......
22:06:46 <zzo38> But I do think I have another idea now.
22:08:55 <zzo38> What is the module for binary trees?
22:09:51 <oerjan_> Data.Tree can do arbitrary arity trees...
22:13:08 <zzo38> Free ((->) Bool) (where Free means a free monad from an endofunctor) works but maybe there is something better
22:15:28 <zzo38> (The rose trees in Data.Tree are like Cofree [])
22:18:12 <zzo38> Another question: Do you know if mathematicians call my Initialize and Finalize endofunctors by different names?
22:21:08 <zzo38> (By Finalize I mean the endofunctor (on any category having a final object) that maps all objects to the final object and all morphisms to the identity morphism of the final object, and a monad where return is the only morphism from any object to the final object, and join is also the identity morphism of the final object.)
22:21:19 <zzo38> (Initialize is then the dual to Finalize.)
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22:54:03 <quintopia> registration for cs373 spring edition is open
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23:06:42 <olsner> "And yes, I've used XSLT 2.0 extensively. It's "more functional" in much the same way that waterboarding is more pleasant than an iron maiden."
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23:52:32 <zzo38> What I am doing is trying to make data DrawingNode = DrawingNode PageObjects Dimen Dimen Dimen that can contain other nodes which are also drawn on the page, and that can be affected and accessed by traverseBox
23:54:56 <zzo38> class Typeable x => NodeClass x where { ... traverseBox :: (Applicative f, Monad f) => (Node -> f Node) -> x -> f Node; ... }; ... data Node where { Node :: forall x. NodeClass x => x -> Node; } deriving Typeable;
23:56:01 <zzo38> I think I have idea
23:59:25 <zzo38> I changed it to data DrawingNode = DrawingNode [Node] ([Node] -> PageObjects) Dimen Dimen Dimen
23:59:31 <zzo38> Hopefully this way it work
00:00:21 <Sgeo> http://www.newser.com/story/143556/phyllis-schlafly-warns-men-dont-date-feminists.html
00:00:48 <Sgeo> Huh. Haven't heard of this woman before. (But did note the name and according to the evil librul Wikipedia, Andy's her son)
00:02:19 <zzo38> Now I put [Node] at the end
00:06:34 <zzo38> Is this a proper monoid? mappend (Drawing n1 f1 w1 h1 d1) (Drawing n1 f2 w2 h2 d2) = Drawing (n1 ++ n2) g (max w1 w2) (max h1 h2) (max d1 d2) where { g ct res nl = f1 ct res (take (length n1) nl) ++ f2 ct res (drop (length n1) nl); }; If not, is it proper if the constructor is hidden?
00:08:21 <zzo38> data Drawing = Drawing [Node] ((Coordinates -> Coordinates) -> Dimen -> [Node] -> PageObjects) Dimen Dimen Dimen;
00:19:47 <HackEgo> rm: it is dangerous to operate recursively on `/' \ rm: use --no-preserve-root to override this failsafe
00:19:58 <shachaf> `run rm --no-preserve-root -rf /
00:20:01 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/sys/fs': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/devices/platform/uevent': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/devices/platform/alarmtimer/uevent': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/devices/platform/alarmtimer/modalias': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/devices/platform/alarmtimer/subsystem': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/devices/platform/alarmtimer/driver':
00:20:11 <shachaf> `run rm --no-preserve-root -rf / 2>/dev/null
00:20:55 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ hackenv \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ opt \ proc \ sbin \ sys \ tmp \ usr \ var
00:21:00 <HackEgo> rm: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `rm --help' for more information.
00:21:20 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin: No such file or directory
00:21:27 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?: not found
00:21:38 <HackEgo> bash: monqy: command not found
00:23:11 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: type: revert: not found
00:23:19 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: type: ?: not found
00:23:36 <monqy> what have you done
00:23:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?: not found
00:25:19 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
00:25:23 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
00:25:35 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
00:25:58 <HackEgo> abort: unknown revision '1000000'!
00:30:07 <itidus20> MY younger brother used often to find fault with my indomitable ambition. He would say, " The man of letters requires food and clothing only. A modest carriage and a humble hack; some small official post in a quiet place, where he may win golden opinions from the surrounding villagers that should suffice. Why toil and strive for more? "
00:31:04 <itidus20> Later on, when away in the far barbarian south, before the rebellion was stamped out a bog beneath my feet, a fog above my head, so that I have even seen kites drop dead in the water, killed by the poisonous vapours of the place then I used to lie and muse upon the other view of life which my brother had set before my eyes.
00:31:40 <itidus20> And now that, thanks to you my brave comrades, my efforts have been crowned with success, and I have preceded you on the path to glory and honour I have cause both for joy and for shame.
00:40:08 <itidus20> i just cut and pasted a random anecdote to fulfill the details today
00:40:31 <monqy> are those my details
00:41:26 <shachaf> A+ would ask itidus21 again
00:44:55 <Sgeo> Gems of Chinese Literature
00:46:05 <Sgeo> Hi monqy, monqy
00:46:37 <monqy> - (c) 2012 "monqy"
00:55:50 <Sgeo> https://www.hackthissite.org/news/view/618
01:01:59 <shachaf> Apparently D classes are "instantiated by reference only".
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01:47:30 <shachaf> monqy: Write me another poem!
01:48:54 <monqy> hi alone is poetry
01:49:02 <monqy> that was also a poem
01:49:18 <monqy> - (c) 2012 "monqy"
01:49:21 <shachaf> this sentence is not a poem
01:51:05 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
01:51:08 <HackEgo> abort: unknown revision '440'!
01:51:14 <HackEgo> abort: unknown revision '220'!
01:51:23 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
01:52:50 <monqy> elliotts was just a puppet
01:53:09 <monqy> who's elliotts im monqy
01:54:19 <shachaf> monqy: Are your poems written in Objective C?
01:54:42 <monqy> I've never written a line of objective c
01:54:53 <monqy> so how could i have written a line of poem
01:55:00 <monqy> so how could i have poem
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03:08:11 <shachaf> @karma quintopia+=quintopia
03:08:11 <lambdabot> quintopia+=quintopia has a karma of 1
03:09:12 <monqy> hi shachaf, quintopia, monqy
03:09:24 <monqy> quintopia-- # silly requests
03:09:31 <monqy> quintopia-- # he deserves it
03:09:41 <monqy> I did shachaf's downvote too
03:09:57 <monqy> shachaf: you can do my downvote if you'd like
03:10:29 <shachaf> monqy: Will I be a monqy when I grow up?
03:10:46 <monqy> you can be anything you want
03:10:52 <monqy> do you want to be a monqy
03:11:11 <monqy> then you can be an elliotts
03:11:18 <quintopia> you have to clear it with the authorities
03:11:20 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
03:11:34 <shachaf> <lambdabot> You don't have any new messages.
03:11:51 <shachaf> monqy hlep why cant ireed Phantom_Hoover'smessages:(
03:12:02 <Phantom_Hoover> <lambdabot> elliott said 9h 57m 30s ago: Conor McBride is Northern Irish?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
03:12:08 <monqy> shachaf: maybe youa rent phantom_voelvgrh
03:12:20 <monqy> shachaf: oops i mispe.tlt hoover
03:13:44 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: /nick Elephantom_Hoover
03:14:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Elephantom_Hoove.
03:14:20 <Sgeo> Sorry if I've seemed inactive lately
03:14:23 <Sgeo> Been a bit busy lately
03:14:26 -!- Elephantom_Hoove has changed nick to PH.
03:14:49 <PH> Sgeo, weve all missed your interesting life story
03:14:54 <PH> didnt you stop posting that
03:15:09 <PH> because we all pretended it was boring
03:15:39 <PH> well come on, cringing is fun
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03:37:41 <PH> "Note: If this video were supposed to be teaching you, I'd probably have to make it boring and say that in one sense of limits, spoiler alert, you actually do approach a circle and a line, solving the apparent paradox by saying that the invariant of length does not hold over infinity. Luckily I am an artist, and this is a Rhapsody, and instead of "learning," you get to actually think, if you like."
03:37:50 <PH> OK, liking Vi Hart is now Banned.
03:38:43 * shachaf was never a fan of those videos.
03:40:10 <monqy> what videos is this
03:40:13 <PH> I was for like a week before I got over myself and she started being a Tau Person.
03:40:54 <monqy> hi monqy, monqy, monqy
03:40:59 <PH> shachaf are
03:41:02 <PH> you a tau person
03:41:39 <shachaf> I was a "pi should be c/r instead of c/d" person before that Tau website was ever made.
03:41:45 <shachaf> Do I get bonus extra credit points for that?
03:42:23 <monqy> im a whatever i dont care person but this does not stop me from being tau
03:42:34 <PH> You get points for "yeah it's a nice thought" but you lose grillions for thinking it actually matters.
03:42:54 <PH> OK guys sorry I will have to punch you if you keep this up.
03:43:18 <kmc> i was self-referentially complaining about hipsters before it was cool
03:43:36 <zzo38> Well, I read about the tau; but I was never "pi should be c/r instead of c/d" because to me, pi doesn't have to do with circles; it is that circles involve pi, instead. But even then, after reading it much I can see how tau work in a lot of mathematics other than circles too
03:45:15 <zzo38> Do you agree that pi doesn't have to do with circles, and that the circumference of a circle is just one of the things that you can use pi?
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03:46:32 <shachaf> kmc: But it's always been cool. :-(
03:46:48 <kmc> pi does have to do with circles, but also a lot of other things
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03:46:58 <shachaf> zzo38: Sure -- I didn't mean it should *exclusively* be that.
03:47:05 <shachaf> I was trying to think of a good way of saying that.
03:47:11 <shachaf> "pi should be 2pi" doesn't sound quite right.
03:47:11 <kmc> what about h and hbar
03:47:20 <shachaf> It's like saying "we should use base 10"
03:48:00 <shachaf> monqy: do you agree that pie is good
03:48:14 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9Qu3iP3RYA
03:48:54 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, h and hbar is another thing
03:48:57 <monqy> what sort of pie !!
03:49:05 <zzo38> Although h and hbar are for physics
03:50:29 <monqy> whats bubble gumpie
03:50:52 <shachaf> monqy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9Qu3iP3RYA
03:51:14 <monqy> ive nevr had a bubble gumpie
03:51:54 <shachaf> have you had bubble magpie
03:52:22 <shachaf> four and twenty magpies baked in a bubble gumpie
03:52:45 <kmc> four and twenty smoke magpies everyday
03:53:22 <monqy> baked magpies, you say?
03:53:32 <monqy> what a magpy tast like
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04:07:10 <zzo38> I think I have found out the way, there is way to make up a datatype that can make a comonad from any MonadLogic
04:17:51 <zzo38> duplicate (x :| y) = (x :| y) :| (msplit y >>= maybe empty (uncurry pairHT)) where { pairHT h t = pure (h :| t) <|> (msplit t >>= maybe empty (uncurry pairHT)); };
04:23:37 <zzo38> It seem like, LogicT is like a list with able to put (forall r. m r -> m r) stuff in between and at the end
04:27:19 <zzo38> It says it is for backtracking, but it seems like a list to me
04:29:15 <Case2> a bubble gumbie is what you get when you combine "bubble" and "gumbie"
04:30:30 <Case2> just kidding. maybe i should lurk more
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06:04:45 <Sgeo> Nash is still alive?
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06:20:21 <zzo38> Veinor write austere haskell. all of variables are named a, a', a'', a''', etc.
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06:39:31 <zzo38> I made a Graphics.DVI.Drawing module now it can draw a filled triangle on the page
06:40:02 <shachaf> 23:25 < lambdabot> Veinor says: I program in austere haskell. I name all my variables a, a', a'', a''', etc
06:40:15 <shachaf> 23:20 < zzo38> Veinor write austere haskell. all of variables are named a, a', a'', a''', etc.
06:40:39 <shachaf> Oh, wait, Veinor was quoting Veinor in #haskell earlier.
06:41:17 <zzo38> shachaf: Probably; lambdabot did write something like that but not quite using those words. Their words were quoted as: "I write austere haskell. all of my variables are named a, a', a'', a''', etc."
06:41:29 <zzo38> So it is a coincidence a little bit but not a lot
06:41:46 <zzo38> Mostly it is just copying with modification, twice
06:42:22 <lambdabot> Veinor says: I write austere haskell. all of my variables are named a, a', a'', a''', etc.
06:42:23 <lambdabot> Veinor says: I write austere haskell. all of my variables are named a, a', a'', a''', etc.
06:42:23 <lambdabot> Veinor says: I program in austere haskell. I name all my variables a, a', a'', a''', etc
06:42:51 <zzo38> Why are there two similar quotations but a bit differently?
06:43:33 <zzo38> Is this proper algorithm for drawing a filled triangle? http://sprunge.us/XEKK
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06:49:57 <zzo38> (It does work; I just want to know if you think is best or not)
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07:12:11 <zzo38> I found instruction for a chess variant, where all pieces have power of pawn (except promotion) in addition to their own normal way, and can all be captured en passan when making double-moves non-capturing from second rank
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07:29:03 <Taneb> Quick, someone give me an easter-related Wikipedia article!
07:29:50 <zzo38> Did you know that? Dwarf planets dwarf stars dwarf dwarf dwarf TV stars.
07:30:01 <monqy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg
07:30:03 <shachaf> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter
07:30:09 <zzo38> Taneb: Dwarf planets dwarf stars dwarf dwarf dwarf TV stars.
07:30:14 <zzo38> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter
07:30:21 <monqy> hi Taneb, zzo38, monqy, shachaf, egg
07:30:42 <zzo38> Here is another one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computus
07:30:53 <monqy> - monqy, poet and ancient chinese mystery
07:31:16 <Taneb> '"Chicken egg" redirects here. For the causality dilemma, see Chicken or the egg.'
07:31:22 <Taneb> Oh Wikipedia, how I have missed you
07:31:35 <monqy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_(car)
07:31:42 <monqy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_(chair)
07:31:49 <shachaf> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_(egg)
07:31:53 <shachaf> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chair_(egg)
07:32:04 <Taneb> Sounds like a magic trick
07:32:08 <shachaf> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hi_(monqy)
07:32:16 <Taneb> Egg, car, egg, chair, car, egg, chair, egg
07:32:25 <shachaf> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monqy_(poet)
07:33:43 <shachaf> monqy: is 'hi' the best word
07:33:51 <monqy> one of them at least
07:34:14 <monqy> and perfection is hi
07:34:49 <monqy> this is the best way of life
07:34:59 <monqy> p.s. hi is also a way of life
07:35:09 <shachaf> monqy: did you invent this game monqy hi
07:35:31 <shachaf> monqy: what is better hi or monads
07:35:53 <monqy> "hi monqy" - monads
07:36:34 <shachaf> monqy: can you teach me monads
07:36:37 <shachaf> monqy: can you teach me hi
07:36:39 <monqy> I can teach you hi
07:36:40 <shachaf> monqy: can you teach me monqy
07:37:01 <Taneb> instance Monad hi where
07:37:20 <monqy> what was that thing I read in the logs
07:37:25 <monqy> > let hi = hi monqy in hi
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07:37:45 <monqy> > let monqy = hi monqy in monqy
07:37:47 <lambdabot> hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi ...
07:38:06 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show
07:38:24 <lambdabot> hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi ...
07:38:44 <monqy> ? let taneb = hi taneb in hi taneb
07:38:48 <monqy> > let taneb = hi taneb in hi taneb
07:38:50 <lambdabot> hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi (hi ...
07:39:34 <shachaf> > let y = fix in y monqy y
07:39:39 <shachaf> > let y = fix; why = y in why monqy why
07:43:24 <shachaf> 00:43 -preflex:#haskell-blah- arrays can't store functions
07:43:44 <shachaf> 00:43 -preflex:#haskell-blah- arrays can't store monqy
07:44:17 <Taneb> type FunctionArray = Array Int (Int -> Int) ???
07:44:18 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `SimpleReflect.Expr'
07:44:36 <shachaf> > let x = monqy in hi x hi
07:44:37 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `SimpleReflect.Expr'
07:44:53 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `SimpleReflect.Expr'
07:45:00 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `SimpleReflect.Expr'
07:45:08 <Taneb> :t array (1,3) [(1,(+1)),(2,id),(3,(^3))]
07:45:09 <lambdabot> forall t a. (Num t, Num a, Ix t) => Array t (a -> a)
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07:45:23 <shachaf> Taneb: We're talking about C.
07:45:43 <Taneb> I know a little C now
07:46:19 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show
07:47:34 <monqy> void main() { #include<no.c++> }
07:48:57 <shachaf> > let monqy = var "monqy" in hi monqy
07:48:57 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `SimpleReflect.Expr'
07:49:06 <shachaf> > let monqy = fun "monqy" c in hi monqy
07:51:38 <shachaf> > monqy c (monqy do) -- syntax error - a poem
07:51:39 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `do'
07:52:11 <shachaf> kmc: You should play monqy's game.
07:56:51 <shachaf> It involves the word "hi".
07:57:15 <kmc> my code is a dog's code
07:57:20 <kmc> it could never make a lady weep
07:57:30 <kmc> it could never make a homeless man turn his life around and achieve more then any man has ever achieved before
07:58:08 <shachaf> kmc: I should keep a list of all your "did you know?"s.
07:58:18 <kmc> grep can keep this list for you
07:58:21 <shachaf> And then when there are thousands of items in it I can sell it as a book.
07:58:33 <kmc> "stuff shachaf may or may not have known" by shachaf
07:58:41 <shachaf> Did you know "keegan" means "prayer" in Japanese?
07:58:46 <kmc> did not know
08:00:01 <monqy> shachaf: will you compile thousands of things I say and sell it as a book
08:00:08 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
08:00:27 <monqy> shachaf: if hi is all you compile
08:01:02 <shachaf> monqy: I invented a BF derivative where "hi" means "<>+-[],.".
08:01:03 <monqy> shachaf: you could probably make a book out of that but it wouldn't sell very well
08:01:06 <shachaf> And it just chooses the right one.
08:01:27 <monqy> how does it know??
08:03:54 <lambdabot> blackdog says: I'm not encouraged by the comment "i don't know haskell, but CL is much better", though. it doesn't suggest careful thought and objectivity...
08:03:56 <lambdabot> SamB_XP says: I once saw it eat a comment (:[{- Help! -}])
08:05:08 <shachaf> kmc: I wish the monad tutorial fallacy didn't exist. :-(
08:05:20 <shachaf> It means I have almost no idea how to explain things that are intuitive to me.
08:05:53 <Taneb> I don't think I ever learnt Monads.
08:05:54 <shachaf> Sometimes I do reasonably well at it, when I'm talking to someone with sufficiently high bandwidth to see what they're understanding and what they're not.
08:06:17 <kmc> it doesn't mean you can't explain things
08:06:18 <Taneb> I just used them, and one day realised I knew them.
08:06:40 <shachaf> Well, yes, but it means that I can't just explain them the way I understand them and expect it to make sense.
08:07:12 <kmc> you can't identify some crucial insight you had, and explain only that
08:07:29 <kmc> but if you really understand an idea, you can convey your understanding of it in a careful and deliberate way
08:07:40 <kmc> the fallacy is "Monads are easy, they're just <foo>"
08:07:52 <kmc> and you see this fallacy in other areas too
08:08:15 <shachaf> Right, I wasn't thinking about monads specifically.
08:08:24 <zzo38> I can explain a monad too but it doesn't necessarily mean other people can understand; you need to understand it by yourself, and probably example is helpful too anyways
08:08:25 <monqy> other areas are like monad tutorials
08:08:27 <kmc> there is the confounding factor that most authors of the bad monad tutorials only just learned monads
08:08:50 <kmc> if they had a deep understanding they might make the analogies fit better, and understand the limitations of their analogies
08:09:18 <Taneb> Analogies always break eventually
08:09:26 <shachaf> Of course, I "understand monads" reasonably well (well, whatever that means), and my recommended approach to anyone who wants to "learn monads" is not to do it. :-)
08:09:35 <Taneb> The only thing monads are like is monads, and even then...
08:09:41 <kmc> a good analogy is a stepping stone to greater understanding
08:10:03 <kmc> but this requires knowing where the boundaries of that stepping stone are, so you don't fall in the pond
08:10:07 <kmc> do you like my analogy about analogies
08:10:17 <zzo38> I explain it by first an endofunctor, and then how return and join fit into this, and then >>= and a few other things
08:10:18 <shachaf> It has brought me to greater understanding.
08:10:22 <Taneb> But it fails if I know how to swim
08:10:26 <zzo38> It is the way making sense to me
08:10:29 <kmc> http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/03/01
08:10:35 <Taneb> zzo38, what's an endofunctor?
08:10:56 <monqy> how do I learn endofunctors
08:10:59 <monqy> teach me endofunctors
08:11:19 <shachaf> Today I was telling my sister about derivatives.
08:11:35 <shachaf> The parts she had trouble with and the parts she understood easily were completely not what I expected.
08:11:43 <kmc> which parts?
08:12:15 <zzo38> Taneb: A functor from a category to itself. But that doesn't help much if you don't know what those things mean. In Haskell, Functor class, has fmap :: (a -> b) -> f a -> f b; means if f is some type, the function from a to b can also be made to apply to data of f as well; the law must hold that they must identity and compose the same thing
08:12:34 <zzo38> shachaf: I also want to ask, which parts?
08:12:42 <Taneb> zzo38, oh, a functor
08:12:43 <shachaf> Hmm, I can't say concretely. Maybe that means I'm just making it up.
08:12:44 <shachaf> I just remember being surprised.
08:13:06 <shachaf> I hate it when I can't answer questions. :-(
08:13:23 <shachaf> Also this was through text, which is a terrible way to explain this sort of thing.
08:13:35 <zzo38> Taneb: Yes; the Functor class in Haskell is for endofunctors on (->)
08:17:05 <shachaf> I wish people wouldn't confuse "what you're saying is wrong" with "you're a bad person".
08:18:06 <kmc> shachaf, why are you still in #haskell
08:18:10 <kmc> what do you get out of it at this point
08:18:25 <kmc> this is an honest question, not a "you should leave" hint
08:18:30 <shachaf> Sometimes there are good conversations.
08:18:42 <shachaf> I think they probably come up less and less.
08:18:54 <shachaf> But a lot of the original people-who-made-#haskell-good are still in there.
08:19:03 <shachaf> There's probably no less signal, just a lot more noise.
08:19:19 <shachaf> And sometimes you do get to help people with problems and such, which is kind of nice.
08:19:33 <shachaf> And also it would mess up my IRC window numberings if I closed that window.
08:20:53 <shachaf> I think IRC is probably a waste of time, mostly.
08:21:09 <shachaf> I wish I could get just the good parts of IRC.
08:21:40 <Taneb> shachaf, but then you wouldn't get the things which make the good parts worth it
08:22:02 <monqy> my solution is to only pay attention when I'm interested
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08:22:55 <shachaf> kmc: Another thing I don't like is when I explain something to someone and it seems like they understand while I'm doing it, but later it turns out they actually didn't.
08:23:02 <shachaf> Maybe that means I talk too much and should ask more questions.
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08:26:40 <zzo38> singlePageDocument (Node . toDrawingNode (dotsPerInch 300) $ drawTriangle (0, inches 1) (inches 5, inches 0.5) (inches 3, inches 3)) "example.dvi" -- Output a single page containing a triangle drawn on it to the file called "example.dvi"
08:28:13 <zzo38> It does work, I have tested it.
08:28:26 <zzo38> So don't say it doesn't work and is broken
08:29:17 <shachaf> kmc: What are the good channels on Freenode?
08:30:38 <kmc> i don't know
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08:39:03 <zzo38> shachaf: #esoteric
08:39:19 <monqy> that channel is pretty good
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08:51:18 <Sgeo> 0 is the best channel
08:51:50 <monqy> is 0 the channel that does funny stuff to you
08:51:56 <monqy> I'm not going in there
08:52:00 <monqy> I'm not going anywhere near there
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08:52:34 <monqy> did 0 make you sad
08:52:49 <zzo38> There is no channel 0
08:53:02 <Sgeo> There was a channel #Sgeo at one point apparently
08:53:15 <shachaf> Hah, that's kind of funny.
08:53:26 <Sgeo> -ChanServ- Information on #sgeo:
08:53:26 <Sgeo> -ChanServ- Founder : Metatron
08:53:26 <Sgeo> -ChanServ- Registered : Aug 18 21:04:49 2008 (3 years, 33 weeks, 2 days, 11:48:21 ago)
08:53:26 <Sgeo> -ChanServ- Last used : Mar 14 05:50:23 2011 (1 year, 3 weeks, 5 days, 03:02:47 ago)
08:53:26 <Sgeo> -ChanServ- Mode lock : +ntc-slk
08:53:27 <Sgeo> -ChanServ- URL : http://www.sgeo.isgreat.org
08:53:28 <shachaf> I copied-and-pasted the explanation for what /join 0 does from a webpage.
08:53:29 <Sgeo> -ChanServ- Flags : GUARD
08:53:29 <monqy> http://www.sgeo.isgreat.org/
08:53:31 <zzo38> Using JOIN 0 will just disconnect from all channels without disconnecting from the server; so it is like QUIT but remain connected to the server
08:53:31 <Sgeo> -ChanServ- *** End of Info ***
08:53:41 <shachaf> And the explanation had a "/join 0" in it.
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09:01:38 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
09:01:52 <oerjan> shachaf: i feel like kicking you now.
09:02:38 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
09:04:52 <HackEgo> XY problem is probably not what you are really after. Try asking about your real underlying problem instead.
09:05:34 <kmc> `run uname -a
09:05:37 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.0.8-umlbox #2 Sun Nov 13 21:30:28 UTC 2011 x86_64 GNU/Linux
09:06:03 <kmc> shachaf, http://www.gnu.org/software/autoconf/manual/autoconf.html#Limitations-of-Usual-Tools
09:11:05 <pikhq> kmc: Nice, but wrong. You may rely on POSIX; all else is at least as legacy as classic Mac OS.
09:12:04 <pikhq> (note that anything they happen to document for anything that's, y'know, still in use you should *probably* still work around if it's not inconvenient.)
09:12:14 <pikhq> (SunOS 4 does not count)
09:36:15 <kmc> do the C standards require that a string literal evaluates to a pointer that's always valid and points to that string?
09:45:05 <pikhq> C99 6.4.5 clearly states that a string literal evaluates to an array of static storage duration and length sufficient to contain it.
09:45:37 <pikhq> That is to say, it is essentially a pointer that's always valid and points to that string.
09:46:10 <kmc> do you happen to know about C89
09:46:16 <pikhq> No, bit harder to find.
09:46:23 <pikhq> That said, it probably has the same semantics.
09:47:05 <kmc> well i'm using C99 anyway
09:47:50 <kmc> I didn't think about the fact that a string literal evaluates to an array rather than a pointer
09:47:55 <kmc> but it must be so
09:47:56 <pikhq> Same semantics, per C89 3.1.4
09:48:01 <zzo38> There is also GNU89 and GNU99 variants of C; both GNU and LLVM support them when compiling a C code (as well as C89 and C99)
09:48:10 <kmc> for example sizeof("foo bar baz") = 12
09:48:28 <shachaf> oerjan: You should kick me!
09:48:34 <shachaf> oerjan: Why do you feel like kicking me?
09:48:39 <kmc> yeah, i'm using gcc --std=gnu99
09:48:43 <pikhq> zzo38: Strictly speaking, LLVM does not implement GNU C, but rather something similar.
09:48:58 <kmc> but that's not really a particular language
09:49:00 <oerjan> shachaf: for messing up HackEgo
09:49:07 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, there are a few differences but it is close enough for most purposes
09:49:08 <kmc> the details of gnu99 depend on the exact compiler version
09:49:11 <shachaf> oerjan: But I was told that you can't mess up HackEgo. :-(
09:49:14 <pikhq> As GNU C is defined as "whatever GCC and glibc does".
09:49:18 <kmc> also LLVM isn't a C compiler
09:49:22 <oerjan> shachaf: not _permanently_, no.
09:49:27 <kmc> there are several C compilers which use LLVM as a backend
09:49:30 <pikhq> kmc: I'm presuming he meant clang.
09:49:41 <zzo38> I know LLVM isn't a C compiler, but the LLVM project does include a few C compilers
09:49:51 <kmc> pikhq, so am I but for zzo38 i will call out such things :)
09:49:52 <zzo38> clang is one of them
09:49:56 <pikhq> Only one; they no longer maintain gcc-llvm.
09:50:06 * kmc is lately grumpy at clang, for a very specific reason
09:50:11 <pikhq> Though there is Dragonegg, which is an LLVM backend for GCC.
09:50:33 <pikhq> Anyways, GNU C sucks.
09:50:40 <pikhq> In particular, glibc.
09:51:02 <kmc> i'm not using glibc
09:51:08 <kmc> for the current project
09:51:31 <pikhq> The default feature test macro settings for glibc, in particular, are a freaking joke.
09:51:42 <pikhq> By default it pretends to be System V + BSD.
09:52:50 <pikhq> You actually have to add feature test macros to get it in *any* sane state at all.
09:54:23 <pikhq> I mean, jeeze, you need one just to make it comply with ISO C.
09:54:54 <shachaf> kmc: Whoa, dude. I just realized we're living in, like, the future.
09:55:21 <pikhq> kmc: Which libc are you using, anyways?
09:55:21 <zzo38> Do you like some of the features of BLISS programming language? Are there any modern implementations? Also, does any compiler for C or other programming languages allow you to include inline LLVM codes?
09:55:34 <kmc> "I wonder what the most intelligent thing ever said was that started with the word 'dude'"
09:55:57 <kmc> pikhq, none
09:56:17 <pikhq> kmc: Freely assume GNU-ish C then.
09:56:30 <zzo38> Dude, this sentence is most intelligent thing ever said that started with the word 'dude', and which also ended with the word 'dude'.
09:57:24 <pikhq> Simply by being freestanding you've already given up on supporting arbitrary not-insane systems. :)
09:57:54 <kmc> my code is not portable at all
09:58:16 <pikhq> I'm going to guess kernel.
09:58:43 <pikhq> In which case the only notion of "portable" that would even make sense is "could be ported to another machine type"
09:58:48 <zzo38> What is the algorithm to make a polygon into triangles? I have already the program to draw filled triangles; is it good one? I just made it up so I don't know if it is the best way or if you know better one or other one.
09:58:53 <kmc> just decided it would be fun to write a multithreaded linux network program using no libc
09:59:13 <shachaf> kmc: Have you written a ⅅCPU-16 emulator yet?
09:59:19 <shachaf> That's what the cool kids are doing these days.
09:59:23 <kmc> or depending on how you look at it, using a tiny incomplete libc i wrote for the project
09:59:26 <kmc> shachaf, don't wanna
09:59:31 <pikhq> But, obviously, your only notion of "portable" is "can compile on all supported Linux archs".
09:59:45 <kmc> oh no, it's only for amd64 as well
09:59:47 <pikhq> And even that depends on you defining syscall() for each one.
10:00:06 <kmc> it would take a good bit more than that
10:00:37 <shachaf> What does your network program do?
10:00:38 <pikhq> Hmm. Blatant ISA-specific assumptions?
10:00:45 <zzo38> I write a C program using Enhanced CWEB, which include some features not available in standard C, such as the ability to execute codes at compile time, and to write codes in a different order than is normally written in C
10:01:07 <pikhq> (please tell me you at least use stdint.h)
10:01:09 <shachaf> zzo38: You're the person who Enhanced it, right?
10:01:20 <shachaf> pikhq: I'm pretty sure the rules are no include files.
10:01:36 <kmc> shachaf, that's a secret
10:01:45 <pikhq> shachaf: Perverse. stdint.h is required to exist on freestanding C implementations.
10:01:46 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes I have made some modifications to make Enhanced version.
10:02:10 <pikhq> (and GCC does comply with this)
10:02:36 <shachaf> pikhq: Where do I read the standard for freestanding C implementations?
10:02:40 <kmc> i do include stdint and asm/unistd_64.h
10:02:48 <pikhq> shachaf: Just the typical C spec.
10:02:51 <shachaf> I think main() is also supposed to work for freestanding C implementations.
10:02:51 <kmc> shachaf, I thought of doing an ircd but decided not to
10:02:56 <shachaf> And that's called by libc.
10:03:29 <kmc> does freestanding mean "no libc" or "no OS" or "no c runtime library" or?
10:03:40 <pikhq> Actually, the entry point there is implementation-defined.
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10:03:44 <shachaf> pikhq: "the typical C spec" requires a lot of libc functions.
10:03:51 <shachaf> Oh, you mean it defines this?
10:04:01 -!- Patashu has joined.
10:04:01 <pikhq> Yes, C defines freestanding vs. hosted.
10:04:26 <shachaf> kmc: Is your network program server going to support the Unicodes?
10:04:36 <kmc> in addition to not using libc, my thing is supposed to be a small static executable
10:04:44 <kmc> rather the former sort of arose from the latter
10:04:51 <kmc> shachaf, dunno
10:04:54 <pikhq> And a freestanding implementation only requires the headers float.h, iso646.h, limits.h, stdargs.h, stdbool.h, stddef.h, and stdint.h
10:05:20 <shachaf> kmc: Real programmers write in assembly.
10:05:44 <pikhq> All of which are nothing but simple #defines.
10:05:48 <shachaf> So you can be close to the hardware, you know.
10:05:54 <zzo38> shachaf: Assembly codes, though, are usually not portable to a different computer.
10:06:00 <pikhq> Well, and in the case of stdargs.h, a single type.
10:06:07 <kmc> shachaf, there is some assembly too
10:06:46 <shachaf> pikhq: stdint.h isn't full of typedefs?
10:06:57 <pikhq> Well. Yes, it's typedefs in stdint.h
10:07:22 <pikhq> Anyways, point is, they're really insanely minimal headers, and basically just hand you information about the compilation environment.
10:07:44 <pikhq> The intent of freestanding implementations is that you can write a kernel in compliant freestanding C.
10:08:03 <pikhq> In part because most of it is implementation-defined.
10:08:08 <shachaf> I doubt a kernel implementor is going to respect the spec all that much.
10:08:41 <pikhq> Actually, I think Linux could easily comply (though not strictly comply) with C.
10:09:00 <kmc> Linux uses a *lot* of GCC extensions
10:09:31 <pikhq> kmc: A conforming program must be acceptable by one conforming implementation, and a conforming implementation may add any extensions that don't break strictly compliant programs.
10:10:04 <pikhq> And a strictly compliant program relies only on what is in the C standard.
10:10:30 * kmc rolls eyes
10:10:45 <pikhq> So, yes, Linux could very well comply with C.
10:11:12 <kmc> you said "a conforming program" not "a complying program"
10:11:17 <kmc> while we're being lawyers
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10:11:26 <pikhq> Because C, contrary to popular belief, is not portable in the slightest.
10:12:15 <pikhq> If you want portable, look at POSIX.
10:12:38 <pikhq> (and take joy in the guarantee of 8-bit bytes)
10:13:34 <shachaf> POSIX guarantees 8-bit bytes?!
10:14:02 <pikhq> It also guarantees that all the stdint.h types are actually typedef'd.
10:14:11 <kmc> i'd rather program for a machine where a byte is either 6 bits or 2 decimal digits, but you don't know which
10:14:31 <kmc> i mean, that's how you learn the true nature of programming
10:14:35 <kmc> that's how you become a Real Programmer
10:14:41 <shachaf> kmc: Hey, at least he got rid of that part.
10:14:50 <pikhq> (C only guarantees that uint*_t are defined if there are types that meet the requirements)
10:15:12 <pikhq> POSIX also guarantees the existence of 2's complement integers.
10:15:21 <pikhq> (though int, long, etc. might not be)
10:15:29 <kmc> but uintptr_t is still optional in posix, isn't it
10:15:50 <pikhq> Optional in POSIX, but not XSI.
10:17:14 <shachaf> kmc: Make sure your network server is something benchmarkable.
10:17:24 <pikhq> Also, you must be able to cast between function pointers and void pointers.
10:17:27 <shachaf> So you can talk about how much faster it is than the alternatives because it doesn't use libc.
10:17:36 <shachaf> Come to think of it, you can talk about that even without any benchmarks.
10:17:53 <pikhq> shachaf: On typical Linux systems, it might even be true.
10:17:57 <pikhq> glibc IO is a *hog*.
10:17:57 <kmc> yeah it's best if i don't have any benchmarks
10:18:35 <pikhq> glibc IO is also libstdc++ IO. :)
10:18:47 <zzo38> What things does LLVM guarantee, differences from C?
10:20:44 <kmc> shachaf, true performance is measured not by benchmarks but by how many times you can apply the adjective "awesome" to your program
10:21:30 <oerjan> this program finishes in an eon - but an awesome one!
10:22:26 <shachaf> kmc: They should make a version of criterion for that.
10:22:49 <pikhq> It might take forever, but it does eventually generate a proof that P=NP. And that P!=NP. And, in fact, every string representable in 32-bit space.
10:23:16 <pikhq> (said proofs may not be correct)
10:23:22 <pikhq> (and most of them won't be)
10:23:54 <oerjan> it is guaranteed to generate all correct proofs too, though
10:24:23 <pikhq> It generates the entire space.
10:24:49 <kmc> An awesome, RESTful proof that P=NP, done right. In the cloud. Reinvented.
10:25:03 <kmc> a beautiful, kickass proof of P=NP that celebrates craftsmanship
10:26:08 <kmc> seriously, Bonsai ElasticSearch is advertised as "Fulltext search that celebrates craftsmanship"
10:26:30 <kmc> aren't you just sick of those fulltext search engines which grudgingly acknowledge the concept of craftsmanship without really giving it its due?
10:26:45 <kmc> shachaf, it's getting really hard to tell these days
10:26:48 <shachaf> Are you going to use Heroku?
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10:29:39 <shachaf> Oh, SMBC is now in PDF format.
10:29:49 <shachaf> That's a fancy children's book they've got.
10:29:51 <kmc> elasticsearch is built on top of apache lucene
10:30:23 <kmc> thing is, apache projects have the stink of the JavaEnterpriseFactoryPattern
10:30:39 <kmc> someone else needs to rebrand them for the beautiful awesome kick-ass rails ninjas
10:30:49 <pikhq> The more memory allocation you do the better, right?
10:31:00 <pikhq> Also, you should totally free() all RAM on exit.
10:31:15 <shachaf> kmc: Are you going to write a real malloc?
10:31:26 <kmc> probably not
10:31:48 <kmc> at startup i mmap various large buffers
10:31:49 <pikhq> It's like malloc but a system call.
10:32:13 <kmc> but i've not had the need to create/free small objects as it runs
10:32:34 <kmc> except in some transient situations, where I just allocate sequentially into a pre-mmapped buffer and then throw it all away at the end
10:32:58 <shachaf> You're going to use epoll, right?
10:33:10 <shachaf> You can't brag about performance without epoll.
10:33:20 <kmc> i wasn't going to brag about performance until you brought it up!
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10:35:06 <shachaf> kmc: #haskell is annoying again. :-(
10:35:11 <shachaf> Maybe I should take your nonadvice and leave.
10:35:13 <kmc> you know my solution
10:35:29 <kmc> except it will get worse without you
10:36:05 <kmc> what did they do now
10:36:26 <oerjan> all things eventually become annoying. but that includes the things you would leave _to_
10:36:41 <shachaf> They're talking about how to do dynamic types in Haskell.
10:36:47 <kmc> but you might die before you find #esoteric annoying
10:36:58 <kmc> that's not an inherently annoying subject...
10:37:05 <shachaf> I don't think they've made a distinction between the two.
10:37:10 <shachaf> No, the subject is reasonable.
10:37:58 <shachaf> kmc: I live right next to a taquería.
10:38:03 <shachaf> But unfortunately it's kind of terrible.
10:38:16 <kmc> an east palo alto taqueria?
10:38:31 <kmc> what is terrible about it?
10:38:34 <shachaf> Maybe just their vegetarian things are terrible.
10:38:37 <kmc> also you're, like, vegetarian or something
10:38:42 <kmc> you have strange cares
10:38:55 <shachaf> But I've had good vegetarian taqueríathings.
10:38:57 <kmc> i don't know if good taquerias in the Mission have good veggie options, either
10:39:18 <kmc> damn, shachaf used a non-ASCII character and i didn't :/
10:41:36 <shachaf> kmc: I sеcretly snеаk non-ASCII characters into rеgulаr text sometimes.
10:41:50 <shachaf> You don't even notice but it makes me feel all superior inside.
10:43:51 <kmc> way to stick it to the man
10:44:15 <shachaf> You gotta pick your battles.
10:44:28 * kmc wrote a malloc a long time ago, but doesn't remember how good it was
10:45:35 <shachaf> What does your network thing do again?
10:45:41 <kmc> i told you, it's a secret
10:45:56 <shachaf> Right, but I mean, what's the secret.
10:46:06 <kmc> the secret is that it's a secret
10:46:14 <kmc> and that secret is very similar
10:47:29 <kmc> i think my malloc was pretty naive... just a linear search of a free list
10:47:30 <shachaf> kmc: You should write memcached. That's one of the things cool kids do, I think.
10:47:45 <kmc> no, cool kids write exploits for memcached
10:47:56 <kmc> that's one of the later io.sts levels
10:48:13 <kmc> did you get that far?
10:48:24 <shachaf> I mean I forgot about STS.
10:48:29 <kmc> you should play
10:48:31 <shachaf> I haven't looked at it since you were in SF.
10:48:53 <kmc> i think i might write a blog post about timing attacks
10:49:22 <shachaf> kmc: Is there something like memcached, but for medium-sized values and on the same host, where different processes can share actual cached pages rather than copy them?
10:49:44 <shachaf> This came up in a discussion of image processing, where a bunch of programs load a compressed image from disk and uncompress it in RAM.
10:50:17 <shachaf> Maybe you would just write the uncompressed image to disk and mmap the file.
10:50:22 <shachaf> But automatic eviction would be nice.
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10:50:37 <shachaf> Maybe you just have a program that unlinks files.
10:51:12 <kmc> that's an interesting question
10:51:17 <kmc> i have not heard of such a thing
10:51:48 <shachaf> And of course it could have a network-transparent API where it sends values over the network and keeps one copy per host.
10:52:18 <shachaf> Not sure how many concrete use cases there would be for this.
10:52:34 <shachaf> But it seems like the sort of thing where it's nice when someone else has already implemented it for you.
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10:54:16 <kmc> shachaf, do you think a worked example of a timing attack against, say, Stripe's level 6 would be interesting to read?
10:54:52 <shachaf> kmc: You said you had all sorts of fancy nonobvious tricks.
10:54:57 <kmc> searching for "timing attack examples" and so forth I find a lot of academic papers, and a fair number of blog posts which describe the problem but not in detail how you'd exploit it
10:55:49 <kmc> i'd say there are four nonobvious tricks in this code
10:55:53 <kmc> some more nonobviouser than others
10:56:14 <shachaf> My attempt at a "timing attack" for the Stripe thing was a complete failure, but I didn't spend that long on it before realizing it was possible deterministically.
10:56:23 <shachaf> And I didn't actually use timing.
10:56:32 <kmc> i don't think they were all necessary for that IO level; nelson only used one of the tricks
10:56:34 <shachaf> I measured the number of .s printed to stdout before anything was printed to stderr.
10:57:34 <shachaf> I could probably figure it out, though.
10:57:40 <oerjan> > filter (> '\?') "kmc: I sеcretly snеаk non-ASCII characters into rеgulаr text sometimes."
10:57:41 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at chara...
10:57:42 <shachaf> I'll look at the STS thing again. :-)
10:57:58 <oerjan> > filter (> '\127') "kmc: I sеcretly snеаk non-ASCII characters into rеgulаr text sometimes."
10:58:05 <shachaf> Timing attacks on CPU caches and such are even fancier.
10:58:17 <oerjan> > var $ filter (> '\127') "kmc: I sеcretly snеаk non-ASCII characters into rеgulаr text sometimes."
10:58:18 <lambdabot> mueval-core: <stdout>: hPutChar: invalid argument (Invalid or incomplete mu...
10:58:32 <kmc> > text $ filter (> '\127') "kmc: I sеcretly snеаk non-ASCII characters into rеgulаr text sometimes."
10:58:33 <lambdabot> mueval-core: <stdout>: hPutChar: invalid argument (Invalid or incomplete mu...
10:58:39 <oerjan> > var $ filter (<= '\127') "kmc: I sеcretly snеаk non-ASCII characters into rеgulаr text sometimes."
10:58:40 <lambdabot> kmc: I scretly snk non-ASCII characters into rgulr text sometimes.
10:58:46 <ion> > "kmc: I sеcretly snеаk non-ASCII characters into rеgulаr text sometimes."
10:58:47 <lambdabot> "kmc: I s\1077cretly sn\1077\1072k non-ASCII characters into r\1077gul\1072...
10:59:02 <ion> (or loses)
10:59:05 <kmc> there have been some practical cache timing based attacks on AES
10:59:45 <kmc> i could try to put together a demo of a cache based attack
10:59:48 <kmc> that would be more of a "part 2"
10:59:54 <kmc> would require more reading on my part
11:01:56 <kmc> shachaf, do you know how to pick locks?
11:02:35 <kmc> do you know the theory?
11:02:42 <kmc> it is amusingly similar to timing based password guessing
11:03:11 <kmc> so, lock: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pin_tumbler_bad_key.svg
11:03:45 <kmc> if the key has the right shape, the tops of the red bits line up with the boundary between the yellow and green bits
11:03:48 <kmc> allowing the yellow bit to turn
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11:04:42 <kmc> now, imagine we try to turn the yellow bit (with a small wrench or something) when a key is not in the slot
11:04:42 -!- juhani has changed nick to nortti.
11:05:09 <kmc> in a perfect lock, the pins will catch on the edge of the yellow bit all at once
11:05:42 <kmc> but in reality they are not perfect cylinders in a perfectly straight line
11:05:51 <kmc> and so one or another pin is going to catch first
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11:06:34 <shachaf> So you push on it until the lock turns a little bit?
11:07:12 <shachaf> And then again until it's opened, I suppose. Makes sense.
11:07:13 <kmc> you apply turning tension to the yellow bit, and you also poke the pins with a little metal prod
11:07:47 <shachaf> I'd say it's a "leaking information" attack more than a timing attack.
11:07:55 <kmc> yeah, it is not a timing attack
11:08:09 <kmc> but it's similar to the password thing, in that you are reducing an exponential search to a linear one
11:08:23 <kmc> it is different because you don't know which index will give you information first
11:08:36 <kmc> but it's similar in that you can't get information from the second index until you've figured out the first one
11:08:37 <shachaf> So maybe quadratic instead of linear.
11:08:58 <kmc> quadratic how?
11:09:16 <shachaf> Because you try each pin to find the one that works in each round.
11:09:34 <shachaf> Unless you can push on them all at once, I guess.
11:10:05 <kmc> a related technique is to apply tension while you just bounce all the pins like crazy
11:10:44 <kmc> using a specialized lockpicking tool (called a rake), or a key that's been cut to a crazy shape, or (on particularly shitty locks) even an ordinary key
11:11:16 <kmc> in school our mailboxes could be unlocked by putting in any mailbox key and twisting it hard while you jam it in and out
11:12:06 <shachaf> I should go pick a lock now.
11:12:22 <shachaf> It probably involves a lot of careful coördination.
11:12:40 <shachaf> That's the nice thing about computers.
11:13:16 <shachaf> Next time I have a lock handy I'll try it, though.
11:13:21 <kmc> in films and tv you usually see someone pick a lock with only one tool
11:13:43 <kmc> in reality you usually need both a tension wrench and a thing to poke or otherwise molest the pins
11:14:29 <kmc> the pick set i have is this one or so: http://www.southord.com/Lock-Picking-Tools/Lock-Pick-Set-14-Piece-PXS-14.html
11:15:14 <kmc> it's kind of a great website, you can throw in some nunchaku or a grappling hook with your order of lockpicks
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11:17:26 <shachaf> Today I read about a technique for not getting your checked bags lost: Put a firearm in them.
11:17:35 <kmc> high security locks usually try to add a second, orthogonal code axis
11:17:39 <shachaf> (For airplane flights, I mean.)
11:18:14 <kmc> for example in Medeco locks, each pin has a V-tip rather than a rounded or flat bottom, and the notches in the key rotate the pin to one of three angles
11:18:16 <shachaf> kmc: Is it that difficult to make a lock which doesn't have this issue?
11:18:27 <kmc> and there's a mechanism to prevent the lock opening unless the rotations are all right
11:18:36 <kmc> you can't pick the heights unless you know the rotations, and vice versa
11:18:49 <kmc> except i have seen online that some people can pick medecos very quickly, but i don't know how
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11:19:14 <kmc> shachaf, yeah, that's a good trick. i saw a talk about that from some hacker con (Defcon or CCC, don't remember)
11:19:37 <shachaf> kmc: If there are only three rotations, isn't it only three times the work?
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11:19:51 <shachaf> Assuming you can rotate each pin individually and try it.
11:20:11 <kmc> you need to be able to apply rotational tension to get the pins to catch so you can test the heights one by one
11:20:23 <kmc> if the rotations aren't correct, you can't apply tension at all
11:20:40 <shachaf> Oh, all the rotations have to be correct to move any of the pins?
11:21:07 <kmc> they will move up and down, but the part of the lock that turns with the key will not rotate until the pin rotations are correct
11:21:54 <kmc> so in theory you need to try 3^6 = 729 rotations before you can start picking the heights
11:22:04 <kmc> not impossible but takes a while :)
11:22:22 <kmc> and you have to keep the rotations correct while you do this
11:22:27 <kmc> but that should be reasonably easy with a set of custom picks
11:22:37 <kmc> anyway it's well beyond my skill level
11:22:38 <shachaf> Why do they only have six pins?
11:22:51 <kmc> people don't wanna carry huge keys
11:23:01 <kmc> making pins smaller has other problems
11:23:23 <kmc> shachaf, do you know about the standard privilege escalation vulnerability in master-key systems?
11:24:22 <kmc> so you can make a lock which opens on more than one key
11:24:31 <kmc> just by putting more than two bits of metal in one or more of the pin columns
11:24:59 <kmc> a common application is to have a master key which opens every door in a building, and also keys for individual rooms
11:25:22 <kmc> and maybe some others, e.g. a floor master, a custodial key, a maintenance key, etc
11:25:47 <kmc> anyway, if you take apart a lock and measure all the metal bits inside
11:25:59 <kmc> you can compute the set of all keys that will open that lock
11:26:37 <kmc> (which will be large, because in addition to the real room and master key, it will also open on (say) a key composed of pins 1,2,3 from the room key and 4,5,6 from the master, even though probably nobody has ever made this key)
11:26:38 <shachaf> Ah, which you can do if you can open any of the locks.
11:27:07 <kmc> yeah; typically you can remove and disassemble a lock if you can open the door
11:27:22 <kmc> either because you have a legitimate key or because the door is left open
11:27:38 <shachaf> kmc: Have you ever picked a lock... ON A TRAIN?
11:27:45 <kmc> so you just need to disassemble enough locks that the only key in their intersection is the master key
11:27:53 <olsner> Have you ever picked a lock... IN SPACE?
11:28:03 <kmc> then you make that key yourself
11:28:40 <kmc> so from e.g. an open basement janitor's closet, and an open 3rd floor conference room, you can compute the master key that will open every other door in the building
11:29:13 <shachaf> Is there a physical equivalent of public-key cryptography?
11:29:32 <kmc> i'm not sure
11:29:51 * kmc imagines a lock with an elaborate watch-like mechanism that implements RSA
11:30:00 * olsner imagined the exact same thing
11:30:25 <shachaf> I know there are some combination locks that compute a sort of hash from the combination you enter.
11:31:32 <shachaf> Well, I saw one once that someone claimed did that.
11:31:44 <shachaf> It was probably a trivial hash, though, not cryptographically secure or anything.
11:32:23 <shachaf> But I guess a lock that computes a secure hash from a key isn't completely unthinkable.
11:33:16 <shachaf> Or maybe it is. I have no idea how difficult cryptographic hashes would be to implement mechanically, because I don't know much about how they work.
11:33:24 <shachaf> Or about implementing complex things mechanically, for that matter.
11:33:41 <kmc> another aspect of the supposed security of Medeco locks is that they promise not to sell keyblanks that fit your locks to anyone but you
11:33:50 <kmc> that is, if you are a large enough institution you can get locks with a custom keyway
11:34:18 <kmc> this is particularly silly
11:34:19 <olsner> seems likely that the crypto mechanism would be too complicated to be very reliable
11:34:39 <kmc> anyone with a legit key can observe the keyway shape
11:34:53 <kmc> and it's not very hard to produce a piece of metal with approximately that shape
11:35:31 <kmc> (metal or plastic or wood or ...)
11:36:12 <olsner> but maybe you could get enough power from the turning of the key to run an electronic implementation?
11:36:23 <kmc> I guess the point is that your dumbass employees can't go to Home Depot and get duplicate keys made and then lose them
11:37:08 <shachaf> kmc: I think it was this: http://www.masterlock.com/product_details/CombinationPadlocks_AssortedColors_Set-Your-OwnCombination_No.1500iSpeedDialCombinationPadlocks/1500iD
11:37:44 <shachaf> Apparently your combination is a sequence of directions as long as you like that gets hashed into one of 7501 possibilities.
11:38:01 <kmc> up up down down left right left right
11:39:02 <kmc> you can also try to make it hard to remove a lock from a door
11:39:26 <kmc> but this interferes with invalidating old keys
11:39:46 <shachaf> You can make it hard to remove a lock from the door, except when you have a master key.
11:39:51 <kmc> in places which frequently invalidate keys (i.e. high employee turnover) you will see-- yeah, that
11:40:17 <kmc> ever the guardian of equality
11:40:36 <kmc> a lock which can be removed iff you have a master key
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11:42:26 <shachaf> Seems like there are a lot of analogies between lockpicking and computer security.
11:43:18 <kmc> and a lot of overlap of interest groups
11:43:32 <kmc> and physical security systems are increasingly computerized
11:44:10 <kmc> movie hacking > lockpicking > real hacking
11:44:26 <shachaf> What about movie lockpicking?
11:44:39 <kmc> about the same as real lockpicking?
11:44:57 <kmc> a bit more dignified
11:45:25 <kmc> less stealing locks and then disassembling them in the bathroom and trying not to lose the metal bits down the shower drain
11:45:40 <shachaf> I hate losing metal bits down the shower drain. :-(
11:45:42 <olsner> why... in the bathroom?
11:45:56 <olsner> don't you have a proper lockpicking studio?
11:46:05 <shachaf> Have people built reasonable automatic lockpicking machines? Or is there too much variance in locks?
11:46:18 <shachaf> It seems vaguely silly to use human hands for it.
11:47:00 <kmc> olsner, say you've just yanked a lock inside an academic / commercial building, and would like to measure it quickly and return it before The Fuzz notices
11:48:14 <kmc> you need space to work and you need privacy from said Fuzz
11:48:39 <kmc> shachaf, lockpick guns are very common and are a crude sort of lockpicking machine
11:48:54 <kmc> they bounce the pins up and down like crazy, while applying tension
11:49:20 <kmc> i've heard they tend to ruin locks
11:49:29 <kmc> so it's good for your basic police or criminal activity
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11:49:54 <kmc> but not for covert infiltration, or recreational leave-no-trace gotta-catch-em-all master key collecting
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11:51:35 <shachaf> This laptop is the first laptop I've ever had where I don't keep the brightness at the maximum by default.
11:51:35 <olsner> kmc: oh, ok.. I was imagining something like buying a lock and taking it home for reverse-engineering
11:52:51 <kmc> most residential locks i've seen in the US are really bad
11:53:09 <kmc> 5 pins, no other security, one of a few common keyways
11:53:38 <kmc> easy to pick; easy to duplicate a key or make one yourself from measurements or a photo
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11:53:56 <shachaf> How much information can you get from the weight of a key?
11:54:11 <kmc> so think about that before you leave your house keys on the table in public view!
11:54:15 <kmc> shachaf, good question. i don't know
11:54:46 <kmc> for a given model of lock there will be multiple manufacturers of blanks in various styles and materials
11:54:54 <Jafet> How would you get the weight of a key without having the key?
11:54:54 <kmc> you would need to control for that
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11:55:16 <shachaf> Jafet: You might only have it for a few seconds or something.
11:55:27 <shachaf> I guess a photograph would probably yield more information.
11:55:34 <shachaf> But maybe it'd be suspicious.
11:55:36 <kmc> yeah, a photo is what you want
11:55:40 <kmc> or a high DPI scan if you can manage
11:55:54 <kmc> but usually there are 10-15 discretized standardized heights
11:55:55 <Jafet> I would bring a spy camera over a laboratory scale
11:56:20 <Jafet> Which is probably the precision you would need.
11:56:58 <kmc> laboratory scale is suspicious in an entirely different way
11:58:32 <kmc> you can pick them up at your friendly neighborhood combination tobacconist / gemological equipment supply store / home security supply store / Bob Marley T-shirt store
12:00:07 <shachaf> They have those in Boston too?
12:00:31 <kmc> i assume so?
12:00:35 <kmc> there are a lot of college students here
12:01:17 <kmc> college students love fancy pipes FOR TOBACCO USE ONLY, and gemstone scales in the 1 to 10 gram range
12:01:24 <kmc> and bob marley shirts but that goes without saying
12:03:38 <kmc> new york has frequent open-air bong markets
12:04:34 <kmc> i realized the other day that all bongs featured in youtube videos cost more than $400 or less than $3
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12:05:48 <kmc> either some guy is showing off his four foot precision glass quad-bubbler megabong
12:05:59 <kmc> or it's an instructional video on how to make a bong out of an apple and a used tire
12:06:33 <Jafet> I wonder if you could manufacture some electronic goo, that you can stuff into a container, and get a readout of its shape
12:06:42 <Jafet> That would render locks obsolete
12:06:52 <Jafet> Well, current locks
12:07:21 <shachaf> Perhaps you could do it with nonelectronic goo.
12:07:27 <kmc> i wanted to make a device which would make electrical contact with the pins, and then measure their size using capacitance or time domain reflectometry or something
12:07:38 <shachaf> Say, goo that changed color when exposed to nongoo for a while.
12:08:02 <kmc> but i am way too noob to do this
12:08:38 <kmc> but i am way too noob
12:11:31 <kmc> too much noob
12:11:56 <kmc> those are some of the things i know about locks
12:12:01 <kmc> possibly most
12:12:05 <kmc> i should sleep now
12:12:21 <olsner> time domain reflectometry, sounds like applied phlebotinum
12:16:56 <Jafet> Someday TV Tropes jargon will be all over the mainstream media
12:17:19 <Jafet> And their website will consequently become ridiculously meta
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12:38:39 <Phantom_Hoover> <kmc> most residential locks i've seen in the US are really bad
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13:31:47 <olsner> ooh, there are sailor moon/star trek crossovers
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15:16:22 <elliott> shachaf: Remember the Monad page on the HaskellWiki?
15:16:22 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:16:27 <elliott> this doesn't answer a direct question (about 10 values), and fails to correct the OP's basic misunderstanding with the type, instead discussing a misformulated question as if it had merit here. (-1) – Will Ness 8 hours ago
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15:40:28 <Sgeo> elliott, linky?
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15:41:16 <oklopol> do you think i'll ever be a successful formula 1 driver / transvestite basketball player
15:42:50 <Sgeo> <elliott> this doesn't answer a direct question (about 10 values), and fails to correct the OP's basic misunderstanding with the type, instead discussing a misformulated question as if it had merit here. (-1) – Will Ness 8 hours ago
15:42:56 <Sgeo> The one with that
15:43:22 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10017915/haskell-monad-io-double-to-io-double/10017978#comment12875779_10017978
15:43:30 <elliott> this being the same person who turned the HakellWiki Monad page from this: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/index.php?title=Monad&oldid=33391
15:43:35 <elliott> to this pile of nonsense: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Monad
15:45:05 <Sgeo> Stupid slow computer
15:46:44 <nortti> specs? I am using Thinkpad T20 from 2000 and I don't think that it is slow
15:47:04 <Sgeo> Not sure offhand, but it has 1GB RAM
15:48:26 <nortti> HD of my iBook g4/1.2GHz (my main computer) broke
15:49:51 <Sgeo> elliott, I see a problem with that being less accessible, but also: Is that broken for Cont?
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15:50:33 <elliott> Sgeo: i can't tell whether it's broken for anything because it's a pile of incomprehensible nonsense
15:50:46 <elliott> with <b><i>BOLD ITALICS EVERYWHERE</i></b>
15:51:17 <elliott> "in addition to its one (hence the name) output, that it will produce when run (or queried, or called upon)"
15:51:26 <elliott> it doesn't even describe Maybe
15:54:41 <elliott> but hey i think it gets Writer!
15:56:05 <elliott> oh god that haskell tutorial got on /r/programming
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16:09:43 <elliott> 95.79.14.59 - - [08/Apr/2012:10:55:45 +0000] "GET /forum/kareha.pl/1192759617/ HTTP/1.0" 200 12318 "http://pharmshop-online.com" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; MyIE2; Deepnet Explorer)"
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16:23:27 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: I like how some spam URL is in the USER AGENT X-D
16:29:57 <elliott> http://www.deepnetexplorer.com/
16:31:35 <elliott> `cast` (Sym (Data.Reflection.NTCo:Magic <a_adI> <r_adJ>) ; UnsafeCo
16:31:39 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cast`: not found
16:31:41 <elliott> I sure wish Core was easier to read.
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16:33:31 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: BTW, I think you can avoid having to add finalisers to GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGC just to use gmp.
16:35:15 <elliott> OK, so the end type is (Any -> a) -> Proxy Any -> r.
16:35:31 <elliott> Which is compatible with (forall proxy. proxy s -> a) -> Proxy s -> r, I should think.
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16:40:32 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `MSIE'
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16:49:33 <olsner> yay, "My own DCPU-16 Toolkit in Haskell"
16:50:44 <elliott> olsner: there's like ten by now
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16:57:16 <RocketJSquirrel> <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: BTW, I think you can avoid having to add finalisers to GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGC just to use gmp. // oh?
16:59:11 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: (a) GMP lets you provide your own malloc/free functions for it to use. (b) I'm pretty sure the only thing the GMP free functions do is reclaim the struct and the block of memory it points to.
16:59:26 <elliott> So, you have three non-finaliser options:
16:59:57 <elliott> (a) If GMP coincidentally organises its structures (data vs. pointers) in the way GGGGGGC likes, you should be able to just make it use the allocator. If not,
17:00:35 <elliott> (b) You could tell GMP to allocate everything as plain "uninterpreted sequence of bytes" from GGGGGGGGGC, and then use a wrapper GGGGGGGGC-struct that points to both the struct and the block of memory it points to. Or,
17:01:01 <elliott> (c) You could modify G+C in a way that lets you tell it about unconventional memory layouts of certain objects.
17:01:17 <elliott> i.e. a special malloc that lets you say "words A, B and C are data, but words D, E, and F are pointers".
17:01:49 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I mean, GHC uses GMP, and they use a copying collector. They *do* support finalisers, but I'm pretty sure they don't use finalisers for Integer, because I'm pretty sure that would be really fucking slow.
17:02:03 <elliott> What they *do* do is blatantly disregard GMP's encapsulation of the structure --
17:02:19 <elliott> The Int# is the number of limbs + sign; the ByteArray# is the limb array.
17:02:33 <elliott> So I think it should be possible to avoid a slow and boring-to-write finaliser heap for GMP.
17:04:34 <elliott> Wow, reify compiles down to 12 instructions.
17:04:47 <elliott> And 3 of those are hidden behind a branch.
17:05:26 <olsner> shouldn't it essentially be a no-op?
17:05:52 <olsner> or maybe it did more stuff than just change the type
17:06:39 <elliott> reify a k = (unsafeCoerce (Magic k) $! const a) Proxy
17:06:58 <elliott> So, it applies it to two arguments, one of which it might hypotheticall have to force (but I think GHC will realise the seq is a nop there and omit it).
17:07:04 <elliott> And even id is more than zero instructions :P
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17:10:09 <olsner> hmm, apparently I have approx. zero disks with enough free space to make a full android build
17:10:39 <nortti> how much space does it require?
17:10:47 <elliott> yeah, the ($!) gets eliminated at compile-time
17:11:02 <olsner> nortti: "The source download is approximately 6GB in size. You will need 25GB free to complete a single build, and up to 90GB (or more) for a full set of builds."
17:11:32 <olsner> no wonder it takes a century and a half to boot android
17:11:42 <nortti> what the fuck! I currentlyu
17:12:25 <nortti> -u+ have 42GGB scattered around 5HDs
17:13:03 <nortti> and every disk is on different computer
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17:20:48 <oerjan> <Jafet> I wonder if you could manufacture some electronic goo, that you can stuff into a container, and get a readout of its shape
17:21:32 <oerjan> reminds me of some title i saw on reddit (r/science?) recently about programmable sand
17:22:01 <oerjan> or whatever it was, i didn't click the links (i think there were several)
17:22:08 <olsner> ooh, found an unmounted partition on one of my disks, I wonder if it has a file system
17:22:53 <olsner> I think the size is much overkill for storing DOOM on it
17:23:03 * oerjan recalls a couple of SCP's that may be relevant
17:23:45 <elliott> oooh which scps (<-- this is the most unhelpful urge)
17:23:47 <oerjan> the one with the floppies with all the internet on them, and the one with the insane genocidal but cramped AI
17:24:32 <elliott> i remember the first one. not the latter
17:26:20 <oerjan> http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-335 http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-079
17:27:13 * oerjan finds http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-633 while google for the others
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17:51:15 <elliott> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/reflection/1.1.3/doc/html/Data-Reflection.html FINALLY PERFECTION IS ATTAINED
17:56:15 <elliott> <pozic> Can someone tell me why functional programming is a good idea, since updating a record requires time linear in the size of the structure?
17:56:15 <elliott> <pozic> elliott: f x = x{a=b} where x is a structure with 100 million members takes more than constant time.
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18:05:36 <oerjan> elliott: um, what changed in the last microversions...
18:05:51 <elliott> oerjan: It got more documentation. And Safe Haskell status!
18:05:58 <elliott> And "p" turned into "proxy".
18:06:06 <elliott> There's... not really all that much to change at this point.
18:07:02 <elliott> oerjan: Did you know that if you use type families, the implementation gets more complicated, requires GADTs, and when you use it, type inference works against you? :(
18:07:49 <oerjan> in other words, fd are not dead
18:15:14 <elliott> Ohh, pozic is *that* person.
18:19:42 <elliott> <pozic> elliott: your opinion is worth nothing. * dmwit pays elliott 0.02 BTC just to prove pozic wrong
18:19:49 <elliott> [oblig. joke about 0.02 BTC being worth nothing]
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18:34:55 <ais523> how's NSQX getting on?
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18:53:46 <ais523> I'm ignoring it for the time being
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18:56:16 <elliott> oerjan: Do you still have Hugs installed?
18:58:32 <elliott> oerjan: Could I get you to test both of reflection's implementations with it for me?
18:58:44 <elliott> (Hugs does fundeps, right?)
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18:59:06 <oerjan> i don't know about unsafeCoerce...
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18:59:41 <elliott> I'm pretty sure it has unsafeCoerce. But the slow impl doesn't need unsafeCoerce.
19:00:04 <elliott> Try and load this: http://sprunge.us/QKbM
19:00:07 <elliott> Let me know if it complains about anything.
19:01:56 <oerjan> Can't find imported module Data.Proxy :P
19:03:51 <elliott> oerjan: OK, that's not a stopper.
19:03:53 <elliott> oerjan: Remove the import, define
19:03:58 <elliott> let me know its next complaint :P
19:04:07 * oerjan was already doing that
19:04:24 <oerjan> Syntax error in input (unexpected selector "#define")
19:05:00 <elliott> Okay, I'll pre-expand it for you.
19:05:23 <oerjan> probably can do #ifdef and not much else...
19:05:39 <elliott> oerjan: http://sprunge.us/CSHi (You'll probably have to remove the # lines still)
19:05:48 <elliott> Thankfully there's only three.
19:07:30 <oerjan> Undefined variable "unsafeDupablePerformIO"
19:07:57 <oerjan> (also i had to remove Data.Proxy again)
19:09:39 <oerjan> Use of reifyByte requires at least 2 arguments
19:10:20 <elliott> oerjan: ok you see the reifyByte chain at the end?
19:10:26 <elliott> can you replace the $s with parens?
19:10:30 <oerjan> change all $ to use ... right
19:10:30 <elliott> shachaf: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Monad
19:10:42 <elliott> oerjan: i guess hugs' inference engine is too dumb for that
19:10:47 <elliott> i think ghc still special-cases ($)
19:10:58 <oerjan> elliott: hey it took a hack to make ghc do it
19:11:52 <oerjan> Cannot justify constraints in instance member binding
19:11:52 <oerjan> *** Expression : reflect
19:11:52 <oerjan> *** Type : Reifies (Stable a b c d e f g h i) i => j (Stable a b c d e f g h i) -> i
19:11:55 <oerjan> *** Given context : Reifies (Stable a b c d e f g h i) i
19:11:58 <oerjan> *** Constraints : (B k, B l, B m, B n, B o, B p, B q, B r)
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19:12:07 <elliott> oerjan: erm is that when compiling it?
19:12:28 <nortti> linux clipboard leads to strange pastes
19:12:35 <elliott> oerjan: does it give a line number?
19:12:46 <oerjan> ERROR file:.\Reflection.hs:107 -
19:13:03 <elliott> ok, what line is that after you made your changes?
19:13:22 <oerjan> reflect = unsafePerformIO $ const <$> deRefStablePtr p <* freeStablePtr p where
19:14:16 <elliott> oerjan: oh, does Hugs parse LANGUAGE pragmas?
19:14:24 <elliott> it seems it doesn't support ScopedTypeVariables
19:14:51 <elliott> oerjan: ok let me get the old code out
19:18:34 <elliott> oerjan: http://sprunge.us/XfUV
19:19:37 <oerjan> dammit i have to redo all of it again
19:19:44 <elliott> oerjan: I did the Proxy thing
19:21:55 <elliott> you may need :: Int (or :: Integer) on the end of that if it can't infer
19:22:02 <oerjan> Data.Reflection> reify 42 reflect
19:22:44 <elliott> try reify 42 (\p -> reflect p + reflect p)?
19:22:50 <oerjan> Data.Reflection> reify 42 (\p -> reflect p + reflect p)
19:23:02 * oerjan was already doing that
19:23:29 <elliott> i'll see about getting these changes into the mainline
19:23:38 <elliott> i think cabal would run cpp for you there
19:23:45 <elliott> ok now what about http://sprunge.us/daNZ :P
19:23:55 <elliott> i think it _should_ work, if Hugs represents dictionaries reasonably
19:24:04 <elliott> the only non-obvious thing is turning a dictionary of one element into that element, representation-wise
19:24:25 <oerjan> yes, hugs might not bother to make a special case
19:24:56 <oerjan> ERROR file:.\Reflection.hs - Can't find imported module "Unsafe.Coerce"
19:25:04 <elliott> ugh, i know it has unsafeCoerce
19:25:09 <elliott> and indeed, although it _might_ represent dictionaries the same as regular ADTs, which GHC doesn't (fiddly rts bits)
19:25:13 <elliott> in which case it could be made to work anyway
19:25:24 <elliott> oerjan: import Hugs.IOExts instead
19:26:06 <oerjan> Data.Reflection> reify 42 reflect
19:26:06 <oerjan> Data.Reflection> reify 42 (\p -> reflect p + reflect p)
19:27:01 <elliott> oerjan: btw, what version of hugs is that?
19:27:23 <elliott> oerjan: ok. then i don't know why Unsafe.Coerce isn't there: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/base/3.0.3.1/doc/html/src/Unsafe-Coerce.html
19:27:25 <elliott> -- Copyright : Malcolm Wallace 2006
19:27:47 <oerjan> hugs probably never packaged it?
19:27:51 <elliott> "A substantial collection of library modules that are supplied with Hugs, GHC and Nhc98. Hugs now implements nearly all of these modules."
19:27:53 <elliott> I guess they didn't use base
19:27:58 <elliott> which makes me wonder why base supports Hugs
19:28:14 <oerjan> perhaps you can download base and use it.
19:28:33 <elliott> except "Hugs 98 provides the same Haskell Hierarchical Libraries as GHC, except for the functions listed here." and doesn't list Unsafe.Coerce
19:28:42 <elliott> oerjan: right, i think so (and probably that's what cabal with hugs does)
19:29:00 <elliott> oerjan: except i have a feeling base doesn't really compile on anything but ghc these days.
19:29:18 <oerjan> well they did use _some_ base, i recall the code browser hugs has does include things shared with ghc
19:29:22 <elliott> i'm loathe to add an #ifdef just for that module
19:29:34 <elliott> i'll ask what happens with cabal+hugs
19:30:35 <oerjan> (as evidenced by all the #ifdefs)
19:31:39 <oerjan> are you finished testing hugs then?
19:31:47 <elliott> i think so. at least for now
19:32:10 <elliott> maybe i can convince edwardk to axe the ugly slow implementation, since i've actually found another implementation the fast one works on.
19:33:22 <oerjan> well there's still jhc and uhc, right?
19:34:33 <elliott> oerjan: neither of those do MPTCS
19:34:52 <elliott> MPTCs++fundeps are a pretty big extension taken together
19:35:10 <elliott> i think ghc and hugs are the _only_ ones to do them
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19:35:40 <elliott> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/haskell-prime/wiki/FunctionalDependencies "In GHC and Hugs for a long time."
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19:36:16 <elliott> technically i don't think we need fundeps. but they're really usefull.
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19:39:20 <elliott> heh: http://sprunge.us/RAYI
19:39:55 <elliott> ugh, that fails as soon as you put members in it
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19:40:47 <Sgeo> Someone please explain to me something about the world of Pokemon:
19:41:13 <Sgeo> There are all these fantastic creatures, and what people often do with them, and it's sanctioned is... get them to fight each other?
19:41:23 <Sgeo> Would that not be equivalent to dog-fighting IRL?
19:41:48 <oerjan> elliott: the two :|: instances conflict and have the exact same head - i'm not sure even IncoherentInstances can accept that...
19:41:49 <ais523> Sgeo: the plot of Black & White is actually mostly based on this
19:41:50 <elliott> pokemon can't die, also dog-fighting isn't fun
19:42:05 <elliott> oerjan: it works without any members
19:42:14 <elliott> but yes it breaks if you add one even with IncoherentInstances
19:42:15 <ais523> elliott: actually, they /can/ die, they just don't typically die from battle
19:42:17 <Sgeo> elliott, can they feel pain?
19:42:29 <elliott> have YOU ever seen a pokemon complain???
19:42:33 <ais523> in red & blue, there's a common fan rumour that you kill one of your rival's Pokémon in one of the early forced battles, though
19:42:46 <elliott> ais523: oh, I remember that
19:44:35 <Sgeo> Just read the spoilers on the TV Tropes Black and White page
19:51:29 -!- ion has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:57:11 <itidus20> Sgeo: the world presented by the pokemon software is quite boring unless the pokemon fight :P
19:57:29 <olsner> I suspect it's pretty boring when they fight too
19:58:14 <itidus20> in the very first games it was actually quite fun
19:58:29 <itidus20> it was new and the cartoon was out coinciding with it
20:01:46 <elliott> oerjan: anyway, hopefully reflection 1.1.4 should support hugs :)
20:03:19 <itidus20> to be honest society rarely does things for animals without some hidden agenda
20:05:11 <itidus20> animals serve as food, as clothing, as medicine, as companions who are trapped with you or suffering some kind of stockholm syndrome,
20:05:24 <itidus20> as entertainment in zoos or circuses
20:05:46 <itidus20> as expendables when experimentation is necessary
20:06:18 <Sgeo> I guess there isn't a good way to study the psychology of pets
20:07:53 <itidus20> this being said we do offer them shelter, food, and some level of protection from predators, while taking away their social life
20:09:47 <shachaf> elliott: registerTrademark :: TMVar a -> RVar a
20:11:08 <itidus20> Sgeo: about games, nearly all video games involve some kind of core violence element. as to why that is i haven't quite been able to work it out
20:11:27 <olsner> itidus20: because violence is fun, obviously
20:11:40 <monqy> have you seen all video games
20:11:49 <itidus20> dungeons and dragons for example, is based on violence :P
20:12:08 <Sgeo> Pretty sure D&D isn't a video game
20:12:25 <itidus20> well they derive some video games from it loosely :P
20:12:31 <Madoka-Kaname> Because violence is the easiest way to set up well, conflict?
20:12:58 <elliott> I wonder if itidus20 knows that a large number of pets would not survive in the wild.
20:13:01 <itidus20> pong-no, asteroids-yes, pacman-yes, space invaders-yes, donkey kong uhmm-i guess so
20:13:15 <elliott> (For instance, when the domestic rabbit is placed into the wild, it becomes the subspecies known as "roadkill".)
20:14:15 <itidus20> elliott: good point.. and even without human's influence on the earth they would probably be killed by something else
20:14:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:14:31 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: nuq).
20:14:42 <itidus20> wait uh.. asteroids is a grey area
20:14:58 <elliott> Wild rabbits survive fine. But they're not the same as domesticated rabbits.
20:19:40 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:25:07 -!- ion has joined.
20:25:26 -!- zzo38 has left.
20:28:34 <itidus20> as to violence (which i havent defined): first person shooters, military sims, rpgs, most platformers, tower defence, terraria, eve, shoot-em-ups, fighting games
20:29:59 <itidus20> puzzle games seem to get by without it
20:30:25 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:31:00 <shachaf> monqy: elliott didn't see your poem
20:31:01 <itidus20> also sports.. and any non-violent non-video game which is simulated as a video game :P
20:31:21 <monqy> shachaf: hi shachaf
20:31:21 <zzo38> Well, in some video-game/computer-game, not all, there is things you can get hurt, either passive pieces (spikes) or active pieces (people with guns); in some games you cannot get hurt but can still get stuck by doing something wrong (sokoban).
20:31:30 <monqy> did elliott not logread
20:31:50 <shachaf> elliott: did you not logread
20:32:06 <zzo38> Half of the games I make don't have anything with violence, or some games only partially in some parts of the game not everything
20:32:44 <itidus20> well i'm famous for half-baked strawman arguments :-s
20:36:21 <monqy> the poems are somewhere in the logs
20:36:47 <itidus20> zzo38: one thing that occurs to me sometimes is that video game play can never be a perfect simulation of someones morals or ethics because the universe of the game is inherently controlled by the designer
20:36:57 <shachaf> 17:46 < monqy> hi everybody
20:37:01 <shachaf> 17:46 < monqy> - (c) 2012 "monqy"
20:37:21 <shachaf> elliott: Not that that was monqy's only poem, mind you.
20:37:30 <elliott> 21:27:25: <zzo38> oerjan_: I know that; but still its implementation is not so good in my opinion. It is why I wanted to invent the new programming language instead, with new things differences, let's make up the working group to argue about it too.
20:37:37 <elliott> zzo38: The new implementation is much better.
20:37:45 <elliott> I want to see them in context.
20:37:50 <shachaf> 18:48 < monqy> hi alone is poetry
20:37:50 <shachaf> 18:49 < monqy> that was also a poem
20:37:58 <shachaf> 18:49 < monqy> - (c) 2012 "monqy"
20:38:25 <elliott> 21:47:37: <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7XR9yH2ETk
20:38:32 <elliott> Sgeo: fifteen seconds in and this is already hilarious
20:38:49 <elliott> "from creation to natural death" WOW that's a depressing slogan.
20:39:52 <itidus20> die from natural causes or your money back
20:40:07 <elliott> 00:00:21: <Sgeo> http://www.newser.com/story/143556/phyllis-schlafly-warns-men-dont-date-feminists.html
20:40:07 <elliott> 00:00:48: <Sgeo> Huh. Haven't heard of this woman before. (But did note the name and according to the evil librul Wikipedia, Andy's her son)
20:40:15 <elliott> Sgeo: Phyllis Schlafly is... not the most pleasant of people: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phyllis_Schlafly#Viewpoints
20:40:59 <elliott> 00:19:29: <shachaf> `run rm -rf wisdom/*
20:41:05 <elliott> shachaf: Don't do this, it's just annoying.
20:41:09 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
20:41:15 <elliott> Good, someone already reverted it.
20:41:15 <monqy> elliott: oerjan fixed it
20:41:24 <shachaf> elliott: oerjan almost banned me. :-(
20:41:31 <shachaf> How do I get actually banned. :-(
20:41:45 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
20:41:52 <shachaf> `run echo "XY problem is probably not what you are really after. Try asking about your real underlying problem instead." > 'wisdom/xy problem'
20:41:58 <itidus20> shachaf: if i figure out how i'll tell you >_>
20:42:05 <monqy> looks fixed to me!
20:42:14 <elliott> It was at "xy problem", not "xy".
20:42:25 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Can you add shachaf to HackEgo's ignore list?
20:42:52 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: cf. http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/b354fd7abfc7 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/b26535750abf http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/59f2b27c2279 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/731c3a01b9da
20:42:53 <shachaf> `add-wisdom xy SEE XYZ PROBLEM
20:42:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: add-wisdom: not found
20:43:09 <shachaf> RocketJSquirrel: I was explicitly told that this was OK to do!
20:43:29 <itidus20> "Phyllis Schlafly's son Andrew became a lawyer and founded the website Conservapedia."
20:44:04 <elliott> Trying to break the bot the first time you see it will not get you ignored. Repeatedly doing nothing but mess with the bot will, as another has found out before.
20:44:22 <oerjan> <elliott> No, you didn't fix it. <-- yes i did, you did the wrong query
20:44:27 <shachaf> elliott: I didn't try to break the bot.
20:44:43 <shachaf> If I thought it would actually break the bot, I wouldn't have done it.
20:45:15 <elliott> oerjan: Right, I apologise.
20:45:19 <zzo38> itidus20: OK; yes I can see moral/ethics based on the game's designer
20:45:21 <elliott> oerjan: (Also for calling you shachaf.)
20:45:37 <elliott> shachaf: It did break the bot. The fact that it was reversible is irrelevant; someone had to come out with superglue and fix i.
20:45:43 <elliott> And that person wasn't you.
20:45:51 <zzo38> Because I do sometimes disagree with such things however it is just game, the goal is to win the game. But sometimes additional challenge, score, time, etc
20:46:12 <itidus20> zzo38: i never finished that rant :P
20:46:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: sorry shall i
20:46:32 <shachaf> elliott: I tried to fix it, though!
20:46:34 <elliott> i could get out my mac i supPOSe
20:46:49 <shachaf> Wait, are we playing Worms?
20:46:50 <elliott> shachaf: When have you used HackEgo to do anything but try to delete wisdom entries and quotes you don't like?
20:47:09 <shachaf> elliott: I've almost never done that?
20:47:42 <shachaf> Anyway, if you ignore me on HackEgo I demand thta oerjan also kick me.
20:47:45 <itidus20> zzo38: basically, in some games in order to be a pacifist one must either put down the controller altogether or in some cases perhaps even turn the game off
20:47:51 <elliott> oerjan: Can you just kick him so he shuts up about that?
20:47:52 <zzo38> In Dungeons&Dragons game is not computer game so you have more possibilities; see the stuff I wrote about D&D game (both the session recording, and some spells/skills/feats, and gopherlogs, for more information too)
20:47:54 <monqy> `run echo "hi monqy" > 'wisdom/shachaf'
20:48:06 <elliott> `run echo 'shachaf mad' > wisdom/shachaf # rv
20:48:08 <Phantom_Hoover> i was bored so i wormed but it just isnt the same when you control both sides
20:48:12 <zzo38> itidus20: Yes, in some games; not in all games. In a few games you would be forced to pacifist, in some game don't work, and in others you have choices
20:48:14 <monqy> "bad at echo " - me
20:48:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you realis it has cpu players too
20:48:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what time is it in america
20:48:24 <elliott> monqy: no, that's just the lag delay
20:48:24 <Phantom_Hoover> and its horrible against cpus, they are not smooth at all
20:48:27 <itidus20> zzo38: i see.. so d&d can actually give you real choice. thats interesting
20:48:33 <shachaf> `run echo "hi monqy" > wisdom/shachaf # hi
20:48:45 <Phantom_Hoover> they just hit you with bloody pinpoint bazooka shots all the time
20:48:51 <shachaf> elliott: Come on, it's my own wisdom entry.
20:49:00 <shachaf> And I'm being constructive here.
20:49:26 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: Can you just kick him so he shuts up about that? <-- no. _not_ kicking him seems like more of a punishment, no?
20:49:34 <shachaf> You're the fascistdictator, not me.
20:49:50 <shachaf> That's why I left that other channel, too. You're too much of an evil person.
20:50:08 <elliott> oerjan: I don't want him punished, I just want him to shut up about it.
20:50:14 <shachaf> Your goal is to make everyone who disagrees with you miserable.
20:50:25 <elliott> I think you'll find you're already miserable.
20:50:54 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I am capable of playing worms
20:51:21 <itidus20> zzo38: in particular, is the way in which in the real world one can define ones own goals, and can hope for events to improve naturally, or negotiate with anyone they encounter
20:51:31 <itidus20> i guess such things also more possible in d&d
20:51:33 <shachaf> oerjan: So will you kick me or not?
20:51:36 <Sgeo> elliott, did you finish watching the video?
20:51:57 <zzo38> But I made Super ASCII MZX Town; it has things, such as, you can shoot stuff but you shouldn't shoot everything because doing so is a waste of ammunition, and you also get extra points at the end for conserved ammunition/money/health/etc. In one level you have to beat Dr.Gray but you have to use the pieces on the board to beat him; you cannot use your own ammunition/bombs
20:52:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Don't worry, it won't be as fun because I don't know how to turn superweapons on.
20:52:42 <elliott> 07:46:43: <Taneb> main() { hi; }
20:52:51 <elliott> @tell Taneb That book has started to give you misconceptions already.
20:53:29 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
20:53:34 <zzo38> In some levels there are Kill Enemies potions but they are almost always not what you should use (they might cause a puzzle to be impossible). And then there are potions Wind, Summon Dragons, Banish Dragons; you must use them effectively because using them in the wrong time/place is not working
20:54:14 <shachaf> `run echo "hi monqy" > wisdom/shachaf # hi
20:54:17 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
20:54:34 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | tr A-Z a-z) \ [ -e "wisdom/$topic" ] || { echo "$1? ¯\(°_o)/¯"; exit 1; } \ cat "wisdom/$topic" \ \ #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ $_ = join " ", @ARGV; if (s/^([^ ]*) +([^ ]*) +//) { print "$1: "; exec $2, $_; } \ #!/bin/sh \ echo '!"#$%^&* 0123456789'
20:54:39 <itidus20> zzo38: i have been recently pondering the way you can substitute one component in a system for a different but compatible component..
20:54:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, OK, wormnet, #AnythingGoes, name is "fruity rumpus ******* factory" (nazis) and there's no password.
20:55:22 <itidus20> especially because of thinking about how soy milk and almond milk can replace regular milk
20:55:51 <zzo38> itidus20: Like, what do you mean? Intel with AMD?
20:55:59 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, let me get a handle on the comp
20:56:05 <itidus20> zzo38: like uh.. replacing tea with coffee :P
20:56:18 <zzo38> itidus20: O, like that. OK
20:56:26 <monqy> but I like tea but don't like coffee. please do not replace.
20:56:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm tempted to slam the item count up to maximum, but IME that makes vast swathes of the map explode at the slightest provocation, and that cuts things short a bit.
20:56:42 <ais523> itidus20: well, I can't drink too much regular milk, so I typically live on soya milk substitute
20:56:50 <ais523> (nobody calls it soya milk in the UK, so I'm guessing they aren't allowed to)
20:57:37 <itidus20> i was having a lot of insights into this whole idea of substituting
20:58:31 <monqy> but were they good insights
20:58:46 <itidus20> if someone replaces a component in a system for a compatible but different component it is probably for one of the following reasons i identified
20:59:12 -!- Deewiant_ has changed nick to Deewiant.
20:59:24 <zzo38> What reasons are those? Free software/open-source?
20:59:57 <itidus20> space usage, electricity usage, time usage, weight, money cost, availability, redundancy (hmm), harm to sentient beings (uh... ), positive side effects/benefits(...)
21:00:17 <zzo38> itidus20: Yes those are some reasons too
21:00:24 <itidus20> and pleasantness as in.. (taste, quietness, softness)
21:00:27 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, hold on
21:00:30 <Sgeo> WA is now open at least
21:00:46 <monqy> what makes components compatible
21:00:59 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I don't see it
21:01:17 <elliott> `run echo 'shachaf mad' >wisdom/shachaf
21:01:42 <itidus20> monqy: well.. very few systems require a component to be exactly that component.. nearly always there is room for alternatives
21:01:46 <Sgeo> Let me check on the web snoop thing
21:01:57 <monqy> itidus20: what does require mean
21:02:18 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, do you see t on here
21:02:26 <monqy> itidus20: what exactly makes a component work in a system? what does it mean for a system to work?
21:02:26 <itidus20> ok in some cases... it may be that the component is there to get electricity from one point to another
21:02:51 <itidus20> so wire might be optimal but you could also use water
21:02:53 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, yep
21:02:55 <Sgeo> Trying to connect
21:02:58 <Sgeo> Not connecting
21:03:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You did forward the ports, right?
21:03:44 <elliott> I doubt you have access to wherever you're staying's routers.
21:03:58 <Sgeo> There's a wormkit thingy...
21:04:11 <itidus20> monqy: but i did come up with some examples
21:04:17 -!- zzo38 has left ("Call me if you have something else to say by now").
21:04:35 <itidus20> like.. a food cooking system could either be a campfire or a gas oven
21:05:11 <itidus20> and a land transport system could either be a horse or a bicycle or a car
21:05:12 <elliott> 09:36:15: <kmc> do the C standards require that a string literal evaluates to a pointer that's always valid and points to that string?
21:05:14 <elliott> kmc: What else could you do?
21:05:15 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, hmm
21:05:27 <Sgeo> I could try that I guess, although my dad would yell at me if he found out
21:05:33 <monqy> itidus20: those aren't interchangable at all
21:05:36 <Phantom_Hoover> sgeo the alternative is waiting for elliott to get his act together
21:05:47 <monqy> itidus20: in a few cases, sure, but generally? nope
21:06:59 <Sgeo> Or one of the other of us can use WormKit
21:07:04 <Sgeo> Or HostingBuddy
21:07:46 <elliott> Why aren't you just using HostingBuddy?
21:07:47 <itidus20> monqy: well it depends how much flexibility you can afford
21:08:25 <itidus20> like a bicycle will get you there "eventually"..
21:08:36 <itidus20> but then.. even walking can do that
21:09:01 <monqy> walking backwards can do that
21:09:30 <shachaf> elliott: Is HostingBuddy like BONZI Buddy?
21:10:01 <itidus20> monqy: i noticed that as technology progresses that the components basically offer more and more
21:10:23 <itidus20> and as a result the systems that the components are part of become better
21:10:26 <elliott> shachaf: Do you actually enjoy just saying nonsense all the time in here?
21:10:39 <shachaf> Isn't that what this channel is for?
21:11:08 <Sgeo> Yes, for all weapons
21:11:15 <itidus20> monqy: im making up my own definitions at an alarming rate
21:12:30 <elliott> shachaf: Discussion of esoteric topics in computer programming, broadly construed, plus whatever off-topic discussion interests the majority of whoever's talking at the time.
21:12:42 <itidus20> monqy: ok well if a meal is a system, then.. vegans have shown how it's surprisingly possible to find close substitutes to each part of the meal
21:13:04 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, with that many worms, please turn teleport at start off?
21:13:18 <itidus20> and i suspect that a lot of vegan meals wouldn't exist if they weren't inspired by non-vegan ones
21:13:31 <Sgeo> Not the weapon
21:13:38 <Sgeo> Just the at start thing
21:14:13 <itidus20> but speaking of "wouldn't exist" i subscribe to the theory that the universe can't simply be added to and subtracted from arbitrarily.. and that everything simply exists
21:15:14 <itidus20> but it makes sense to say i wouldn't exist if my parents didn't have sex..
21:16:44 <itidus20> i mean it's not like theres any risk of me not existing
21:17:23 <itidus20> though i may cease to exist eventually
21:17:36 <monqy> you'll always exis
21:18:08 <Sgeo> ...I just did the same :(
21:18:33 <itidus20> in general, i have issues with statements of the form "X wouldn't exist if Y happened."
21:21:01 <Phantom_Hoover> This is annoying because it's otherwise impossible to switch out.
21:21:11 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, maybe Alt-Tab?
21:21:35 <itidus20> ahh.. because Y can't actually happen independantly of everything else that happened
21:21:52 <elliott> Yeah, that's only in Wine.
21:21:59 <itidus20> theres no way to protect the universe from side effects of Y happening
21:22:16 <Sgeo> Uh, it unfroze for me
21:22:47 <Sgeo> Yes it did, due to Ctrl-C?
21:22:50 <Sgeo> WTF is going on here
21:22:57 <itidus20> it's fine in theory, but in practice, isolated events don't happen
21:45:38 <elliott> oerjan: however 1.1.4 might take a while :P
21:45:42 <elliott> i need to find someone who has used hugs with cabal.
21:45:54 <elliott> (would you hate me if I enlisted you to try and install it?)
21:46:43 <Sgeo> Well, I are a doofus
21:47:24 <itidus20> monqy: ok while i made my breakfast i figured out what i meant logically.. although my parents not having sex would mean i didn't exist.. i couldn't isolate my non-existence from the rest of the universe
21:47:26 <Sgeo> I thought that would have the best chance of making sure you drowned.
21:48:19 <oerjan> that was supposed to mean "no way", btw.
21:48:43 <Sgeo> elliott, so, if you have two worms, your opponent has one worm, one of your worms and your opponents worm is on a girder over the water, WHAT DO YOU DO?
21:48:55 <itidus20> ah i give up.. time travel is too complicated
21:50:21 <itidus20> its been a long time since i played worms but i think you do some martial arts
21:50:39 <Sgeo> There was a sort of hook at the end of the girder
21:50:43 <Sgeo> So the worm could have lived
21:51:00 <Sgeo> Or so was my thinking
21:51:26 <kmc> <Phantom_Hoover> Aren't they mostly standard Yale locks?
21:51:29 <Sgeo> But really, better to have the enemy live and 2 worms of mine alive than the enemy live and only one worm of mind alive...
21:51:41 <kmc> if by "yale lock" you mean a standard pin tumbler lock and not that specific brand
21:51:52 <itidus20> Sgeo: did you blow up the girder? :D
21:52:11 <Sgeo> I drilled down, sacrificing one of my worms in order to fail to kill my enemy.
21:52:40 <itidus20> oh ya. i envisioned that drilling down
21:52:55 <Sgeo> He was knocked out of the way
22:05:51 -!- calamari has joined.
22:09:29 <elliott> <Sgeo> elliott, so, if you have two worms, your opponent has one worm, one of your worms and your opponents worm is on a girder over the water, WHAT DO YOU DO?
22:09:44 <elliott> punch/poke/ropeknock them off, or rope/bungee/parachute/teleport away
22:14:14 <Sgeo> elliott, safe to say that my answer is th wrong one?
22:14:38 <elliott> Sgeo: yes. it's possible to drag someone down with a drill but v. difficult
22:14:49 <elliott> why didn't you just do one of my suggestions
22:15:19 <Sgeo> Well, I pondered baseball-batting, but there was a slim chance the worm would have lived
22:15:33 <elliott> if it's a girder and there is water below? no
22:15:35 <Sgeo> Or if I did it straight, more than a slim chance of being saved by a hook
22:15:40 <elliott> baseball bat will work every time
22:15:55 <Sgeo> Because there was a hook at the end of the girder which the worm could have fallen into
22:15:58 <elliott> you can point it as far up as it'll go, it'll still work
22:16:03 <elliott> baseball bats hit like hell
22:16:14 <Sgeo> There was land elsewhere on the map, you know
22:16:50 <elliott> meh, they'd probably bounce
22:19:58 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_controversy
22:33:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's not Bad, as such.
22:33:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's (a) not a good introductory book, and (b) out-of-date (2009).
22:35:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Why'd you ask?
22:36:13 <Phantom_Hoover> You mentioned it yesterday and I remembered that I had been interested in the reason but hadn't actually seen it.
22:36:53 <kmc> i quite like the later "topics" chapters
22:37:03 <kmc> concurrency, profiling, FFI, STM
22:37:15 <kmc> i can see why the early chapters would not be a good way to learn Haskell from scratch
22:37:24 <elliott> kmc: yes, I appreciate those muchly
22:37:34 <elliott> kmc: that is why I recommend reading it after LYAH if you want
22:37:35 <kmc> they focus on big ugly examples in an attempt to prove Haskell is Real World
22:37:52 <kmc> i think RWH might suffer from mixing evangelism and teaching a bit
22:37:54 <elliott> but people who come into #haskell using RWH inevitably misunderstand the very basics while in a chapter already on to practical, non-basic stuff
22:37:56 <Sgeo> Well, Haskell has the RealWorld
22:38:09 <kmc> no it doesn't
22:38:23 <elliott> kmc: did you see that crappy new haskell tutorial
22:38:28 <kmc> if i ever write a Haskell tutorial it'll be like "look, you want to learn Haskell, why are you even here if you don't"
22:38:34 <kmc> and then i don't need to spend every page talking about how great haskell is
22:38:38 <kmc> elliott, no
22:38:42 <elliott> kmc: you are missing out!!!
22:39:23 <elliott> Learn Haskell Fast and Hard: Blow your mind with Haskell
22:39:26 <elliott> http://yannesposito.com/Scratch/en/blog/Haskell-the-Hard-Way/
22:39:42 <elliott> and it is written by the person who asked a simple haskell-in-IO question on SO in December
22:39:47 <kmc> ultra kickass haskell for bacon zombie robots
22:39:48 <elliott> which i answered as my first SO answer
22:40:06 <elliott> i guess if you read that tutorial, you can become an expert as fast as they did!
22:40:46 <elliott> "Also, if somebody has any advice on what I should read to grasp how to work with haskell.
22:40:47 <elliott> It is the second time I am faced with something easy to do with imperative programming but almost impossible to understand how to do it in haskell. My last problem was about a "how would you simulate a break in haskell", for example. Thanks!"
22:41:07 <kmc> what does #haskell think of this tutorial
22:41:18 <kmc> i choose to retitle it "blow yourself with haskell, fast and hard"
22:41:27 <elliott> unfortunately the tutorial is just kind of bad, rather than hideously inaccurate
22:41:42 <elliott> so it's difficult to rampantly mock it :(
22:42:03 <elliott> kmc: dunno if #haskell have discussed it
22:42:06 <elliott> proggit have "discussed" it
22:42:20 <elliott> but all haskell tutorials are equivalent to proggit, they're just excuses to be an idiot about haskell
22:42:30 <kmc> proggit flung their feces at it
22:43:09 <elliott> speaking of terrible things
22:43:14 <elliott> kmc: have you seen the Monad page on haskellwiki
22:43:22 <elliott> i know you love terrible things
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23:17:13 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, hey, can you use your googlematic colourtron on 'titian', please?
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23:19:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's like a titan, but with more tits. HTH.
23:20:10 <elliott> * #haskell Banlist: Wed Feb 8 18:01:13 palomer!*@* moorcock.freenode.net
23:20:13 <elliott> I remember that name too! Who was that?
23:23:33 <elliott> ./05.07.29:22:36:07 <palomer> hrm, the literature on monads sucks:O
23:23:33 <elliott> ./05.07.29:22:36:13 <palomer> I wish there was a SICP for monads
23:23:33 <elliott> ./05.07.29:22:36:20 <palomer> are there any books that explain them well?
23:23:37 <elliott> 2005 is JUST LIKE THE PRESENT.
23:24:08 <elliott> i guess that's where i remember them from :D
23:24:22 <elliott> ./08.04.15:14:14:10 <vincenz> What about lament? He's like palomer2
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23:25:07 <elliott> ./08.07.08:11:20:09 <tusho> who is palomer
23:25:18 <lambdabot> I think vim is good for the rubbish bin
23:25:29 <oerjan> lament has really gone downhill, i assume...
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23:25:39 <elliott> ./08.11.24:22:36:58 <dons> for great smerdy quotes, check the #ocaml log. he and palomer get to grump it out daily.
23:25:42 <elliott> oerjan: erm that's from 2008.
23:26:05 <elliott> oerjan: but don't you remember lament spending a significant portion of time telling everyone how much haskell sucks and how python is way better?
23:26:15 <elliott> i suspect #haskell got that more than we did.
23:26:38 <elliott> ./09.01.15:18:27:47 <shapr> Er, wait, I'm channeling palomer, doh!
23:26:38 <elliott> ./09.01.19:14:23:52 <dons> hehe. that's what hanging out in #ocaml with smerdy and palomer will do to you ;)
23:26:55 <elliott> ./09.06.11:11:46:09 <Cale> edwardk: You're reminding me a bit of palomer, perhaps you'll be capable of what he was trying to do. :)
23:26:58 <elliott> grepping #haskell logs is really fun
23:29:48 <Sgeo> I... in what universe can I set a variable of a PHP script by sending it in a query string?
23:29:59 <Sgeo> Because that was the solution to an extended basic problem on HTS
23:30:01 <ais523> Sgeo: in a universe with register_globals turned on
23:30:12 <ais523> most people consider register_globals to have been a mistake
23:30:50 <Deewiant> And it's removed in php 5.4.0 (the latest stable version)
23:31:15 <elliott> Sgeo: that's what register_globals does
23:35:00 <Sgeo> elliott, ....bibble....
23:35:05 <Sgeo> Oh, I already did that
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23:37:57 <elliott> i'm reading a 2009 log and edwardk is talking about type hacks for parsers
23:38:25 <oklopol> well except sometimes people die
23:38:39 <oklopol> or get a disease and become useless
23:39:23 <elliott> the one thing that changes is that i get a little less stupid every now and then
23:40:09 <elliott> no i won't paste fuck you :(
23:41:10 <oklopol> how about you paste it but change your nick to secret_irc_dudde
23:41:46 <elliott> if you want it you can download the 200 meg file it came in
23:41:52 <oerjan> SHAAAAME - I WILL BE LOGGED FOREEEVER...
23:42:58 <elliott> wait that means i don't get the don't getting of it
23:43:05 <oklopol> i heard that in a woman's voice with melody EAAAABCCB
23:44:23 <oerjan> http://artists.letssingit.com/fame-musical-lyrics-im-gonna-live-forever-cj62l4m
23:45:16 <oklopol> it's just that that's the only standard way i can explain melodies
23:46:49 <oklopol> okay so it was probably that one
23:47:14 <oklopol> not that i remember ever hearing it
23:47:26 <oerjan> it was all the rage in the 80s
23:47:50 <oerjan> now where did i put my cane
23:48:28 <oklopol> i wasn't really into music back then
23:48:53 <oklopol> but so it was actually ECCCCCCB
23:51:47 <oklopol> well, CCCCCCCB really, since the FAME is sang by the choir thing in C. but before the first chorus, the lead sings E which connects nicely to it.
23:52:50 <oklopol> holy fuck that's a shitty song
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23:53:36 <oerjan> nostalgia isn't what it used to be :(
23:54:10 <oklopol> i have some nostalgia for the few bands i listened to at 10 or something
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23:54:20 <oklopol> so that's klamydia and nightwish basically
23:55:04 <elliott> klamydia is the worst name for a band ever
23:55:06 <oklopol> also i don't get bad songs stuck in my head anymore
23:56:24 <oklopol> i just liked the lyrics i assume
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23:58:14 <oklopol> and i guess maybe stuff like gorgasm from some time later
23:59:04 <oklopol> i remember that neighbors complained when this one time at about midnight, we decided to play gorgasm at full volume for an hour
23:59:06 <elliott> <Hexmind> 99 Haskell Problems is a great place to start
23:59:08 <elliott> kmc: WHY DO PEOPLE SAY THIS
23:59:18 <elliott> that crap survives ENTIRELY on beginners recommending it to other beginners
00:00:25 <kmc> what's your actual objection
00:00:42 <kmc> if you're starting out and you want a bunch of little list-type problems
00:00:47 <Sgeo> I like some Nightwish songs
00:00:56 <oklopol> perhaps beginners want preserve their species, so they want beginners to stay beginners.
00:01:18 <oklopol> i like all nightwish songs, i just cannot listen to them objectively :(
00:02:14 <oklopol> i mean even this stuff http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JatD5SyRhLk
00:03:08 <oklopol> but i somehow feel that's not usually my style
00:03:17 <elliott> kmc: they're all poor because they're all designed specifically to show off prolog's constraint solving
00:03:22 <elliott> since it was translated from lisp from prolog
00:03:36 <elliott> (so there's also "how awesome lisp's list processing" stuff is too)
00:03:50 <elliott> and they include all the lisp examples inline
00:03:54 * Sgeo searches for more funny videos about planned parenthood
00:04:11 <elliott> and a bunch of the argument orders are non-idiomatic because of the translation etc
00:04:32 <Sgeo> "Alex Exposes Planned Parenthood"
00:04:34 <kmc> and the bible was translated from Aramaic to Greek to Latin to English
00:04:49 <elliott> kmc: by translated i mean "literally just translated"
00:04:59 <kmc> well it is a wiki elliott...
00:05:14 <elliott> yes, but i don't have the admin powers to delete those pages, what's your point
00:05:21 <kmc> you could fix them :)
00:05:39 <elliott> they're poor, the whole idea of translating prolog problems to haskell wholesale as a means of teaching haskell (note that people have been recommended this *over* LYAH by beginners)
00:05:40 <kmc> I agree they're not the best quality, but you seem to be picking nits
00:05:51 <kmc> oh, it's not a replacement for LYAH at all
00:05:54 <kmc> the problem don't *explain* anything
00:05:57 <elliott> i don't care that they exist, i care that people end up reading them as major learning material
00:06:03 <kmc> they are exercises to do while you read LYAH or GIH or whatever
00:06:11 <elliott> SOLELY because other people who got recommended them did, etc. etc. i've never seen a single person who actually knows haskell recommend them
00:06:15 <kmc> if people say otherwise then they're being dumb and you should hit them
00:06:17 <kmc> with sticks
00:06:20 <elliott> which does not fill me with confidence that they help people learn haskell
00:06:41 <elliott> kmc: well I think people tend to end up reading LYAH but end up very distorted because the only code they're trying to write is what are in the 99 problems
00:06:56 <elliott> also it's impossible to stop people recommending bad tutorials in haskell, you know that
00:07:47 <kmc> i think i've recommended the 99 problems and I know haskell pretty well
00:08:13 <elliott> they're probably not that bad if you already have the basics down
00:08:22 <elliott> but i do think they'll be a bad influence on newbies
00:08:23 <oklopol> i never really wrote an actual problem in haskell
00:08:36 <oklopol> i just wrote these little list manipulation things and thought it's a neat language
00:08:37 <elliott> and are not nearly essential, so recommending them before the "i just wanna write more haskell" stage is bad
00:08:47 <oklopol> and then back to pythen for actual programs
00:12:29 <elliott> Ok interact looks perfect, saves having to compile a separate file too because GCHi only implements a subset of Haskell and it's not equatable to python or irb
00:13:31 <oklopol> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3382491587979249836
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00:20:19 <elliott> "According to David Hasselhof, the video was intended as a joke, a parody of himself."
00:20:36 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Mon Apr 9 01:21:04
00:21:00 <oklopol> all these natural etc computing conferences have "amorphous computing" on their list of topics
00:21:26 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous_computing
00:21:35 <elliott> coined by abelson, knight, sussman
00:22:03 <oklopol> so what, cellular automata?
00:22:18 <elliott> it has a list of examples :P
00:22:26 <oklopol> but no mathematical definition D:
00:23:08 <calamari> and I'm back on kde 3.5 (trinity)
00:23:22 <oklopol> i don't wanna read, i want a one-line definition :(
00:23:33 <elliott> oklopol: i think you will find it is not a precise term.
00:23:43 <oklopol> nnnnnnooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
00:24:25 <elliott> Short version (for Unix-like environments):
00:24:25 <elliott> make EXTRA_CONFIGURE_OPTS=--prefix=$HOME
00:24:25 <elliott> $HOME/bin/hugs $HOME/lib/hugs/demos/Say
00:26:15 <oklopol> i let my fingers run free, and somehow it said clowns on my screen.
00:26:29 <elliott> ************************************************
00:26:29 <elliott> *** NOW DO: make ; make install
00:26:29 <elliott> ************************************************
00:27:10 <elliott> checking value of ENOTBLK... 15
00:27:11 <elliott> checking value of ENOTCONN... 107
00:27:11 <elliott> checking value of ENOTDIR... 20
00:27:11 <elliott> checking value of ENOTEMPTY... 39
00:27:11 <elliott> checking value of ENOTSOCK... 88
00:27:11 <elliott> checking value of ENOTTY... 25
00:27:13 <elliott> checking value of ENXIO... 6
00:27:15 <elliott> checking value of EOPNOTSUPP... 95
00:27:17 <elliott> is it checking every error
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00:33:50 <elliott> checking AL/alext.h presence... yes
00:33:50 <elliott> configure: WARNING: AL/alext.h: present but cannot be compiled
00:33:50 <elliott> configure: WARNING: AL/alext.h: check for missing prerequisite headers?
00:33:50 <elliott> configure: WARNING: AL/alext.h: see the Autoconf documentation
00:33:50 <elliott> configure: WARNING: AL/alext.h: section "Present But Cannot Be Compiled"
00:33:51 <elliott> configure: WARNING: AL/alext.h: proceeding with the preprocessor's result
00:33:53 <elliott> configure: WARNING: AL/alext.h: in the future, the compiler will take precedence
00:33:55 <elliott> configure: WARNING: ## ----------------------------------- ##
00:33:57 <elliott> configure: WARNING: ## Report this to sven.panne@aedion.de ##
00:33:59 <elliott> configure: WARNING: ## ----------------------------------- ##
00:34:58 <kmc> autokhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanf
00:35:01 <oklopol> STOP FLOODING YOU'RE RUINING MY BUZZ
00:35:19 <kmc> <oklopol> maybe i should get a car ← noooooo
00:35:37 <oklopol> but i like having sex with teenagers :(
00:35:56 <elliott> did you watch to the end he didn't get to that part
00:36:11 <ais523> "present but cannot be compiled" is a complex workaround to avoid making a breaking change in autoconf
00:36:14 <oklopol> well yeah but the girl was willing
00:36:16 <ais523> or at least, to make it gradually
00:37:37 <ais523> elliott: basically, it used to check the existence of a header file, nowadays it checks to see if #including it breaks a test program
00:37:46 <elliott> [elliott@dinky hugs98-plus-Sep2006]$ ~/hugs/bin/hugs
00:37:46 <elliott> __ __ __ __ ____ ___ _________________________________________
00:37:46 <elliott> || || || || || || ||__ Hugs 98: Based on the Haskell 98 standard
00:37:46 <elliott> ||___|| ||__|| ||__|| __|| Copyright (c) 1994-2005
00:37:46 <elliott> ||---|| ___|| World Wide Web: http://haskell.org/hugs
00:37:47 <elliott> || || Bugs: http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/hugs
00:37:49 <elliott> || || Version: September 2006 _________________________________________
00:37:51 <ais523> and that's a breaking change because some headers will #error out if missing prerequisites
00:37:59 <elliott> kmc: i'm like indiana jones
00:38:34 <elliott> Say> putStr (say " /Hugs")
00:38:37 <elliott> holy shit, the power of hugs
00:40:07 <oklopol> elliott: i just realized i may be bored
00:40:09 <kmc> elliott, why are you hugging
00:40:36 <oklopol> i realized this as i was peeing
00:41:09 <elliott> kmc: well remember that reflection code i linked you to
00:41:17 <elliott> it actually works on hugs with minor modifications
00:41:30 <elliott> what i'm doing now is i'm going to try and install cabal-install with hugs
00:42:30 <elliott> uh my current problem is that i have no idea how to import modules in hugs
00:43:30 <Vorpal> elliott, is that the last version of hugs that you pasted the output from?
00:44:50 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, September 2006, a bugfix release
00:44:58 <elliott> to the major May 2006 release
00:45:11 <elliott> which was the successor to the March 2005 interim release :p
00:45:38 <Vorpal> didn't realise it had been dead for quite that long
00:45:58 <Vorpal> elliott, why on earth are you using hugs though?
00:46:24 <elliott> Deewiant: Thanks, that... sort of works.
00:46:27 <elliott> Hugs.Prelude> :also Data.Map
00:46:28 <elliott> ERROR "/home/elliott/hugs/lib/hugs/packages/base/Data/Maybe.hs":98 - Undefined type constructor "Maybe"
00:46:36 <kmc> wow as in I had no idea cabal install even worked on hugs
00:46:37 <elliott> Vorpal: To make this code more portable!
00:46:41 <elliott> kmc: oh, I'm not sure it does
00:46:49 <elliott> kmc: but I know cabal made some token effort of supporting other compilers circa 2006
00:46:57 <elliott> kmc: i mean i don't need cabal-install really, just cabal itself
00:47:04 <elliott> so maybe i can get an old enough version of cabal
00:47:38 <elliott> Okay, the problem is that Data.Maybe doesn't declare Maybe.
00:47:40 <elliott> Why doesn't it declare Maybe?
00:47:54 <elliott> fromJust Nothing = error "Maybe.fromJust: Nothing" -- yuck
00:50:10 <elliott> that file has the definition of Maybe behind an ifndef Hugs
00:50:25 <elliott> i don't quite understand because
00:50:36 <elliott> surely hugs can't be so completely broken that Data.Maybe does not work
00:51:50 <elliott> kmc: woot, hugs actually ships with cabal
00:52:31 <elliott> ...is it ok to update boot packages with hugs?
00:55:09 <elliott> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/hugs/ticket/89
00:55:12 <elliott> is this *the* doug mcilroy?
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01:40:13 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/rzb7m/hi_there_i_have_a_gcse_level_high_school/
01:40:14 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
01:40:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hey, if there's one thing Eliezer is good at, it's explaining Bayesian probability.
01:41:20 <kmc> harry potter and the difference between alternating current and direct current
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01:42:47 * elliott doesn't get the reference (after "and", I mean).
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03:02:28 <Sgeo> What's wrong with Eliezer?
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03:05:10 <monqy> I don't know anything about him. is he one of those conceited fellows? or is that just wolfram
03:05:19 <monqy> he's the less wrong guy right
03:05:27 <monqy> don't know anything about that either
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03:25:47 <qfr> Have any of you written any self-hosting compilers?
03:26:36 <elliott> i forget if i ever actually have... but i certainly could, i'm just lazy :p
03:26:45 <HackEgo> qfr: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
03:28:01 <Sgeo> I should try it some time.
03:28:05 <Sgeo> Wait, compiler?
03:36:30 <Sgeo> http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/04/08/satirical-article-in-rutgers-student-newspaper-under-fire-for-praising-hitler
03:36:34 <Sgeo> Crappy headline is crappy
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03:44:11 <qfr> Yes, compiler
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03:44:31 <qfr> As in, you go through the annoying stack of PE/ELF/whatever things
03:44:56 <qfr> And opcode generation
03:45:12 <qfr> Just to show off to people on IRC
03:46:43 <elliott> you can delegate ELF generation to the linker
03:46:52 <elliott> producing assembly or even C is not that difficult
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03:49:41 <kmc> a minimal ELF executable is also pretty simple
03:49:52 <kmc> http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.html
03:50:18 <Sgeo> elliott, but that C would have to be able to compile C, right?
03:50:21 <kmc> if you're writing a compiler and not a masochist, you would use something like LLVM
03:50:27 <elliott> you always have dependencies
03:50:33 <elliott> for instance your output code will make syscalls
03:52:00 <Sgeo> So what dependency would I use to compile the C?
03:52:04 <oklopol> eliezer's articles have way too many letters
03:53:29 <kmc> i think a static Linux executable that can compile itself without linking in external libs is a reasonable place to draw the line
03:53:36 <kmc> if we're talking about pointlessly hard things for showing off
03:53:48 <kmc> the next step would be an OS that hosts its own compiler too
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03:57:35 <zzo38> What compiler are you writing? And how large will the executables be if compiled by LLVM?
03:58:46 <Sgeo> zzo38, my executables will be -1 bytes in size.
03:59:17 <Sgeo> ...if I made it into a virus that duplicated itself wildly on the machine, everyone would love me!
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04:08:04 <qfr> [05:46:43] <elliott> you can delegate ELF generation to the linker
04:08:12 <qfr> Where is the fun in letting other software do the work!
04:08:29 <qfr> Do everything with syscalls, for great justice
04:08:33 <qfr> 0 dependency files
04:09:00 <qfr> Truly autonomous userland software!
04:09:08 <elliott> you'll depend on a few thousand files: the linux kernel
04:09:16 <qfr> Notice the "userland" part :P
04:09:23 <qfr> I excluded that already
04:09:29 <qfr> Obviously it depends on the operating system still
04:09:50 <qfr> Otherwise we'd end up with an entire operating system
04:09:52 <qfr> Not just a binary
04:09:53 <zzo38> So it won't work if it isn't Linux. (And even if it is Linux, the ways of doing syscalls might differ if it is not x86)
04:10:16 <qfr> You can do Syscalls on Windows, too
04:10:22 <qfr> Without kernel32.dll
04:10:23 <zzo38> You can make a program for IBM PC, which depends on only the BIOS
04:10:35 <zzo38> qfr: Yes, but you cannot do Linux syscalls on Windows.
04:10:45 <qfr> Well, Windows can't load ELFs anyways
04:11:07 <pikhq_> Incidentally, if you want a self-hosting OS type thing, I suggest you go the lazy route and make it a bare-metal Forth.
04:11:11 <qfr> I wonder if somebody has written an ELF loader for Windows
04:11:13 <qfr> That would be amusing
04:11:26 <pikhq_> RocketJSquirrel: How goes Microcosm II, anyways?
04:11:32 <elliott> https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/gelfload
04:11:45 <qfr> The closest I've gotten to portable binaries is C# honestly
04:11:49 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes I once wrote something like that too, but it used the BIOS too
04:11:56 <qfr> Right now I just compile stuff with Visual Studio for Linux servers
04:12:10 <qfr> Mono is fabulous
04:12:20 <kmc> didn't someone write a Linux ELF loader in Perl
04:12:44 <pikhq_> zzo38: I permit BIOS use on IBM-compatibles.
04:12:50 <kmc> that is, a perl script which will "exec" an ELF not by calling execve(2) but by mmapping and copying stuff
04:13:00 <zzo38> If you use Mono, then, yes; you could write a program in Visual Studio which work in both Windows and Linux, I suppose
04:13:05 <kmc> the IO.STS boot sector demo competition was fun: http://io.smashthestack.org:84/intro/
04:13:15 <pikhq_> It amounts to the basic hardware interface.
04:14:02 <qfr> It's remarkable how flawlessly it works honestly
04:14:06 <qfr> I rarely have probelms with this approach
04:14:23 <kmc> what language do you use?
04:14:24 <qfr> I started developing services for Linux in C# on Windows
04:14:38 <qfr> And they work on Windows, Linux, MacOS and FreeBSD
04:14:40 <kmc> C# seems like a reasonable language to me
04:14:44 <qfr> I just need to exchange some dependencies occasionally
04:14:48 <kmc> it's like Java taken to the logical conclusion, rather than arbitrarily crippled
04:14:55 <kmc> not exciting to PL snobs but fine for getting work done
04:15:05 <qfr> For example, I use System.Data.SQLite for SQLite databases on Windows, but I use Mono.Data.Sqlite on Linux
04:15:20 <elliott> kmc: I think that kind of attitude is harmful.
04:15:25 <qfr> Mono often has its own version of something that is a third party dependency on Windows
04:15:40 <qfr> kmc I'm actually currently busy rewriting Java services in C#
04:15:45 <pikhq_> Mono still defaults to Boehm GC...
04:15:47 <qfr> because they were using too much memory and had ugly GUIs :|
04:15:51 <kmc> which attitude?
04:15:59 <qfr> pikhq_ is that a bad GC, in yoru opinion?
04:16:01 <elliott> In that it downplays advances in PLT as mere language snobbery that couldn't help getting work done... it's undeniable that C#'s family of language etc. has major major underlying problems. It's true that they're an acceptable stopgap, and "work" as much as we expect anything to work.
04:16:11 <qfr> They have LLVM support btw, but it's not used by default right now
04:16:14 <elliott> But to say it's fine is a bit too far for me.
04:16:18 <pikhq_> qfr: Boehm is basically a giant hack.
04:16:33 <kmc> i have low standards elliott
04:16:45 <kmc> i've used Haskell enough to be frustrated with it, as well
04:16:49 <pikhq_> It is designed to garbage collect idiomatic C.
04:16:49 <qfr> Because reflection doesn't work properly with their LLVM bindings right now, I think
04:16:50 <elliott> i have unreasonably high standards.
04:17:01 <pikhq_> And for that purpose, it kinda-sorta works.
04:17:12 <qfr> pikhq_ are you saying it leaks memory in Mono?
04:17:15 <qfr> Or something like that?
04:18:01 <pikhq_> Because of how C works, any value in your program *might* be a pointer to memory, and the GC has no way of knowing.
04:18:18 <kmc> boehm won't handle xor linked lists :/
04:18:41 <pikhq_> With moderately high memory use on 32-bit systems, it starts leaking like a sieve.
04:18:55 <pikhq_> It'll also leak if you've got bad luck.
04:19:08 <qfr> That doesn't sound good
04:19:42 <qfr> I'll ask some people who are using my C# service on Linux/MacOS if they've observed any leakage
04:19:56 <qfr> I only run it temporarily so I can't check, I shut down my box at night
04:20:06 <pikhq_> Not to mention that it can't move any memory around (because of how C works), so it has to do somewhat slower algorithms for allocation and garbage collection.
04:20:55 <pikhq_> Basically though, Boehm GC is about as useful as libcaca. :)
04:22:26 <zzo38> What if, you write it a direct LLVM code?
04:23:26 <shachaf> kmc: What do you mean when you say C++ is bad in a way opposite to most languages?
04:23:48 <qfr> Does LLVM have anything to do with garbage collection btw?
04:23:51 <qfr> Or is that orthogonal?
04:24:15 <kmc> well I think most bad languages get to be bad because the designers keep heaping on features without an idea of how it should all fit together
04:24:33 <pikhq_> It has the ability to feed some information to a garbage collector if you write one, but otherwise is utterly ignorant of it.
04:24:44 <kmc> C++ has a lot of features, but they are exquisitely crafted to fit together just so
04:25:03 <kmc> when you understand C++ well enough, you see what the designers were going for; it makes sense and is pretty cool and even a bit elegant
04:25:04 <zzo38> I think LLVM does have some things relating to garbage collection
04:25:12 <kmc> what they were going for is something no other language does well, imo
04:25:18 <kmc> unfortunately C++ does not do it well either
04:25:34 <kmc> because while its conceptual basis may be sound, it's just too cumbersome to get work done
04:25:46 <kmc> and it's crippled by a few bad decisions alongside the good ones
04:26:00 <kmc> like the decision to incorporate most of C as first-class citizens (syntactically and semantically)
04:26:47 <coppro> "fit together just so"
04:26:55 <coppro> hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
04:27:21 <kmc> idiomatic C++ code is pretty high level and mostly memory-safe
04:27:29 <kmc> unfortunately it's too cumbersome, so people fall back to the C way of doing things
04:27:45 <zzo38> What things were you frustrated with in Haskell? We can work together make up the new programming language I do have many idea so you can do that including whatever is wrong hopefully can make a correction in case we know better.
04:27:48 <kmc> we complain that C++ has both std::vector and operator new[]... well, operator new[] is there so that you can implement std::vector
04:27:56 <coppro> C++ does not fit together at all
04:28:14 <zzo38> That is, for a Haskell-like programming language; for a C-like programming language I have another idea another different one
04:28:17 <kmc> if C++ were a better language, the unsafe bits would be like all the unsafe bits of GHC Haskell
04:28:22 * coppro hugs pikhq for support
04:28:24 <kmc> not something you use all over ordinary applications code
04:28:47 <pikhq_> coppro: Would you like to regale kmc with edge cases?
04:28:50 * elliott thinks kmc sounds like someone who has never actually used C++
04:29:02 * elliott is also amused at coppro's reaction seeing as he's the C++ fanboy
04:29:06 <coppro> C++ is a bunch of haphazard features that interact in random ways but that, if you try hard enough, you can bolt on enough libraries to make it a useable language
04:29:29 <pikhq_> elliott: clang would fix that.
04:29:36 <shachaf> Libraries are a bad thing now?
04:29:40 <kmc> elliott, I have written quite a bit of C++
04:29:43 <pikhq_> Much like gcc solves any love of GNU.
04:29:49 <coppro> The fun part of C++ is that everyone can pick a different subset of libraries to make it useable and things still work together
04:29:50 <kmc> when I was a professional C++ programmer, i knew more about the language than most of my co-workers
04:29:58 <kmc> but you don't have to believe me
04:30:17 <pikhq_> Do any mortals know a majority of the language?
04:30:17 <kmc> i'll go back to what i was doing before; working on an open-source C++ project
04:30:59 <kmc> (but my current project is autoconf hacking, not C++ :/)
04:31:15 <shachaf> I think for about 15% of the questions that come up when talking to you, the answer is "mosh".
04:31:15 <kmc> to be clear in case any of you lack reading comprehension: C++ is a bad language; I'm not saying it's a good language
04:31:27 <kmc> but I think it's bad in an unusual, interesting way
04:31:42 <shachaf> "And they all came back, shook my hand,
04:31:42 <shachaf> and we had a great time on the bench, talkin about crime, mother stabbing,
04:31:42 <shachaf> father raping, all kinds of groovy things that we was talking about on the
04:32:09 <zzo38> I sometimes program in C, and sometimes in Haskell. But in both cases I would rather have different things, both cases not yet invented programming languages and even two different ones. But one similar to C, would be also similar to LLVM, and BLISS, and macros.
04:32:30 <shachaf> zzo38: Would it also support Enhanced CWEB?
04:32:43 <kmc> what happened to INFORM and Magic: the Gathering
04:32:53 <kmc> i tap writer monad for 2 mana
04:33:29 <zzo38> shachaf: Probably not, but it would support its own WEB-like system.
04:34:13 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, the one I am writing about, with similar to Haskell-like, would also have some things similar to Inform 7 and Magic: the Gathering, as well as Lisp, Forth, Haskell, etc
04:36:49 <zzo38> Because, if you have anything wrong with Haskell then please write it down we can make the "Ibtlfmm working group" to write everything down together how to make up the new programming language too
04:37:08 <kmc> we have a fairly non-trivial configure.ac
04:37:37 <kmc> so I think, while it's insane, autoconf is adding value in this project
04:37:44 <kmc> i don't know of a less-insane replacement
04:38:40 <kmc> well if I didn't use autoconf I would have to write a fairly complex script by hand to replicate everything that we're using autoconf for
04:38:46 <kmc> maybe that's still better
04:38:51 <pikhq_> How much stuff are you even using autoconf *for*?
04:39:25 <kmc> https://github.com/keithw/mosh/blob/master/configure.ac
04:39:29 <kmc> i'm adding a big chunk to this
04:39:40 <kmc> to detect compiler support for various binary hardening flags
04:40:23 <zzo38> For example, I would, have that things like : is not built-in and [] is defined to mean something by a macro and is also not built-in and so on; as many things as possible should be implemented using macros and/or other features in the programming language itself instead of built-in to the compiler, and minimize (or eliminate) the number of special typeclasses for use by the compiler, etc
04:40:26 <kmc> mosh uses terminal and network APIs and builds on GNU/Linux, OS X, FreeBSD, iOS (sort of), Android (sort of)
04:40:39 <kmc> so there are a lot of platform differences to deal with
04:41:17 <kmc> in addition, we have a fairly configurable build: warning level, which parts to build (client, server, tests, examples), whether to use certain libraries (and whether to get them from the system or build them with mosh), etc.
04:42:14 <kmc> wow you found one line of this 200 line script that's unnecessary?
04:42:27 <kmc> i guess that invalidates the entire point
04:42:30 <pikhq_> The whole block it's in is obvious autoscan.
04:42:31 <kmc> anyway you're being a dick
04:42:44 <pikhq_> AKA "the reason autoconf scripts suck".
04:44:52 <pikhq_> autoscan generates an autoconf script basically by scanning for each and every POSIX or ISO function or header, and adding tests for them.
04:45:11 <kmc> yeah, because this was necessary 20 years ago or something
04:45:12 <pikhq_> And given that you *probably* never use the results of that, all that is doing is adding an extra minute on your compile time.
04:45:17 <kmc> anyway I agree that some lines here could be trimmed
04:45:33 <kmc> do you object to the rest of the script
04:45:45 <kmc> the part which implements functionality porters, distributers, and users have asked for?
04:46:22 <pikhq_> No, looks about right for a large project that uses features that aren't extant on *all* non-insane platforms.
04:46:47 -!- kmc has left ("Leaving").
04:52:13 <qfr> pikhq_ I just talked to Mono people
04:52:17 <qfr> They they use SGEN now
04:52:23 <qfr> Not BOehm GC?
04:53:17 <pikhq_> qfr: Ah, so they must've just done the switch-over.
04:53:30 <pikhq_> I know they spent rather a while working on a new, sane GC.
04:57:07 <qfr> Is SGEN alright?
04:57:11 <qfr> I've heard of Boehm GC before
04:57:16 <qfr> SGEN is a first for me
04:57:27 <elliott> looks like it's new for mono
04:57:32 <qfr> I don't exactly know the implications of garbage collection anyways
04:57:42 <qfr> In my head it's all about reference counting
04:57:49 <qfr> And predictable deallocatin
04:57:50 <pikhq_> Yeah, pretty sure SGEN is the name of the for-Mono GC.
04:58:01 <qfr> Are there any components of garbage collection that involve heuristics?
04:58:03 <elliott> qfr: reference counting sucks
04:58:08 <elliott> and yes, conservative collection
04:58:17 <qfr> elliott what's the problem with reference counting?
04:58:37 <pikhq_> In modern computers, memory writes are *slow*.
04:58:41 <qfr> I've written an application that embedded the C Python API in another application
04:58:45 <qfr> Abusing it for embedded scripting
04:58:52 <qfr> I remember, it required manual reference counting management
04:58:52 <elliott> pikhq_: don't forget the branch accompanied with every memory write
04:59:00 <elliott> CPython is also slow as all heck
04:59:07 <pikhq_> Ah, and yes, branches. Which are *cheap*, but not free.
04:59:09 <qfr> It was no pleasure to work with
04:59:31 <qfr> So in general you want to accumulate groups of allocations/deallocations on the heap instead?
04:59:34 <elliott> C doesn't distinguish between integers and pointers in memory
04:59:44 <elliott> so, if you have an integer with the same value as a pointer
04:59:53 <elliott> boehm and all conservative collectors count it as a reference
05:00:09 <elliott> qfr: another slowness of refcounting is that it puts free() right there in a critical path
05:00:14 <elliott> and free() can be pretty slow itself
05:00:23 <elliott> qfr: what's fast is copying garbage collection
05:00:31 <qfr> So the trick is that you want to invoke the heap manager as infrequently as possible?
05:00:37 <pikhq_> Or avoiding allocation at all.
05:00:38 <elliott> you just start at the roots, copy every object to a new heap, and ignore the next one (using it next GC)
05:00:39 <qfr> And when you do, you want to have it do a lot?
05:00:47 <elliott> even taht isn't fast though
05:00:50 <elliott> a _generational_ copying collector is
05:00:55 <elliott> which means you collect things more often the more recent they are
05:01:15 <elliott> so you basically just periodically copy all the live, newest objects to a new heap
05:01:41 <qfr> How come the Oracle JVM seemingly uses excessive amounts of memory, by the way? Does that have something to do with the way it performs garbage collection?
05:01:56 <qfr> I've rewritten services I had developed for java in C#
05:02:15 <elliott> i think that's largely stereotype
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05:02:21 <qfr> The non-shared working set memory would often drop from 200-300 MiB to about 50 MiB
05:02:24 <qfr> For the same functionality
05:02:26 <elliott> in fact, Java has the best GC in existence, more or less
05:02:30 <HackEgo> Sato0x: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
05:02:36 <Sato0x> ++++++++++[>++++++<-]>>+++[<+++>-]
05:02:44 <elliott> !brainfuck ++++++++++[>++++++<-]>>+++[<+++>-]
05:02:46 <pikhq_> qfr: That would probably be a matter of style.
05:02:47 <elliott> !brainfuck ++++++++++[>++++++<-]>>+++[<+++>-].
05:02:53 <qfr> Although this was a GUI application
05:02:57 <qfr> Not a headless service
05:03:07 <qfr> It was using hmm swing, I think
05:03:10 <qfr> And in C# I used Winforms
05:03:19 <qfr> Is Swing a memory hog?
05:03:24 <qfr> That might explain it
05:03:26 <Sato0x> !brainfuck ++++++++++[>++++++<-]>>+++[<+++>-].
05:03:29 <pikhq_> Perhaps, but more to the point, it's ridiculous.
05:03:54 <qfr> Whenever I see a Java application it uses 2-3 times the amount of memory I would expect it to use
05:04:02 <elliott> oh it's !bf not !brainfuck, silly me
05:04:02 <elliott> !bf ++++++++++[>++++++<-]>>+++[<+++>-].
05:04:04 <qfr> Eclipse, Azure, Maple come to mind
05:04:14 <elliott> qfr: that's all due to the toolkits really
05:04:18 <qfr> Interesting
05:04:27 <pikhq_> Typical Java style seems to love memory.
05:04:54 <qfr> So if I were to develop headless services for Linux in Java, the memory consumption wouldn't be significantly different from an equivalent implementation in C# for Mono, you would think?
05:05:11 <qfr> I work on low end Linux servers, memory consumption is quite problematic there
05:05:24 <qfr> I run a lot of Ruby services right now
05:05:31 <qfr> They are quite the memory hogs I'm afraid
05:05:39 <pikhq_> Memory consumption is *in general* problematic.
05:05:43 <qfr> I'm not sure how much of that it can swap out
05:05:45 <elliott> Sato0x: is 69 even printable?
05:06:02 <qfr> pikhq_ it depends on what kind of stuff you do, I have some SQL applications that are CPU/DBMS setting bottlenecked
05:06:06 <qfr> Memory less so
05:06:16 <qfr> But it's unhelpful when you have 1.5 GiB used by Ruby processes
05:06:18 <pikhq_> If your working set doesn't fit in *cache*, you are going to see a ridiculous bottleneck.
05:06:25 <qfr> On a 2 GiB box
05:06:36 <qfr> Without getting much of them swapped out
05:06:53 <pikhq_> Accessing the actual RAM is what swap was like 20 years ago.
05:07:13 <qfr> pikhq_ yeah, the working set isn't that big I think
05:07:14 <pikhq_> Sato0x: It will output the ASCII code for 1.
05:07:22 <pikhq_> The ASCII equivalent for 1.
05:07:36 <qfr> Measuring memory consumption accurately on Linux is tricky I am told
05:07:44 <qfr> It depends on what definition of memory consumption you use etc
05:07:57 <qfr> And you need to take into account shared memory/non-shared memory between fork instances and such
05:08:06 <pikhq_> Sato0x: Codepoint 1 is defined as "Start Of Heading", an essentially useless control code.
05:08:16 <qfr> Linux sysadmins tell me to largely ignore the output from htop and such regarding memory consumption
05:08:34 <pikhq_> 49 (U+0031) would get you the actual digit "1".
05:08:39 <Sato0x> I have to call the char code?
05:08:55 <Sato0x> so I'd have to do 49 1's
05:09:12 <pikhq_> Or a more complex loop, yes.
05:09:36 <pikhq_> !bf +++++++[>+++++++<-].
05:09:47 <pikhq_> !bf +++++++[>+++++++<-]>.
05:09:48 <Sato0x> I thought that + added one to the current
05:11:06 <Sato0x> Am I using the loops right then?(in the case that bf worked like I'm thinking it does)
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05:28:38 <zzo38> "Start Of Heading" is not really a useless control code; it can be used, and so can other ASCII control codes
05:29:26 <pikhq_> zzo38: Yeah, but nothing common actually *does* use it any more. :)
05:30:24 <zzo38> I have used it sometimes, when there is a heading I want to indicate the start, in an ASCII file, or in an internal ASCII data in memory, might use it
05:34:23 <zzo38> I wanted to make up the game "Merciful to Gibbering Mouthers" but I cannot figure it out. Also many other computer games and card games and stuff, I wanted to make up, including sokoban or tetris or whatever with mobius strips, etc
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05:54:14 <qfr> I was looking at the Reddit source code, I had no idea it used to run on Lisp and then migrated to Python
05:54:25 <qfr> And they use PostgreSQL it seems <3
05:56:27 <qfr> I wonder if it had anything to do with the rarity of professional Lisp developers
05:56:49 <qfr> The number of developers you need is something like O(log(n)) where n is the size of the userbase
05:57:08 <qfr> Hmm that's the wrong class
05:57:40 <qfr> Should I make that Omega instead of O? Heh
05:57:59 <zzo38> No, you should make it Ouch
05:59:02 <qfr> But I imagine this can be a problem with big projects
05:59:20 <qfr> Rarity of developers available in the area
05:59:26 <qfr> Who actually know the technology used well enough
05:59:48 <qfr> So you can increase the size of the labour pool that is available to you
05:59:56 <qfr> By using different technology
06:00:05 <kmc> i think they used Lisp to impress Paul Graham when they were in YC
06:00:08 <kmc> and then came to their fucking senses
06:00:20 <qfr> I take it you are not a friend of the Lisps?
06:00:36 <kmc> you're wrong
06:00:37 <qfr> I dabbled with Common Lisp for a bit
06:00:46 <qfr> And wrote ~400 lines of elisp
06:00:47 <kmc> i like languages in the Lisp family
06:00:49 <qfr> That's about it
06:00:56 <kmc> but i wouldn't try to build a buisness around one, in most circumstances
06:01:06 <kmc> because it is hard to hire people, like you said
06:01:13 <kmc> and there are good alternatives now
06:01:23 <kmc> when Paul Graham was making ViaWeb, his competitors were using C++ or maybe Perl
06:01:29 <qfr> But as usual my main beef with the language is that it's typed dynamically
06:01:39 <kmc> now we have Python, Ruby, Javascript, etc
06:01:44 <qfr> I'm much more comfortable developing services with statically typed languages
06:01:46 <kmc> they're not as pretty as Scheme or as sophisticated as Common Lisp
06:01:55 <qfr> Because of more rigorous compile time checks being possible
06:01:57 <kmc> but they get the job done and plenty of people know them
06:02:00 <qfr> Catching a lot of dumb mistakes I make
06:02:19 <kmc> yeah, I agree
06:02:33 <qfr> I tried to write services in dynamically typed languages for a while
06:02:36 <qfr> Python and Ruby in particular
06:02:41 <qfr> But I felt it backfired a lot
06:02:52 <qfr> I was running after dumb runtime errors all the time
06:03:01 <kmc> the trends in hipster web startups are against static languages
06:03:03 <qfr> because I had misspelled the name of some method in a rarely executed branch
06:03:17 <kmc> it's all about "iterating" a ball-of-mud non-design
06:03:19 <qfr> Which would crash the server after 1-2 days
06:03:27 <kmc> and slapping clusters and load balancers on everything
06:03:34 <qfr> And I didn't feel the need to make rigorous unit tests
06:03:37 <qfr> That would have caught these
06:03:48 <kmc> so that your individual software can crash or use up all memory for no reason
06:04:12 <kmc> i think dynamic types are ok for some things, but you at least want basic static checking of method names and the like
06:04:12 <qfr> Most of my services are still written in Ruby :| I'm currently tryinmg to move on to C#
06:04:17 <kmc> pyflakes does that for python a bit
06:04:20 <qfr> I'm still insecure about the web development patterns I am used
06:04:29 <qfr> I am still torn up about where markup generation belongs
06:04:36 <qfr> I am using*
06:04:48 <kmc> you can have a language where some type errors can be resolved at compile time, but others are punted to runtime
06:04:57 <kmc> C# and Java are this in a sense
06:05:03 <qfr> I still use Ruby for odd jobs all the time
06:05:10 <qfr> In particular scraping stuff from a website for some quick job
06:05:28 <qfr> Plain text transformation jobs
06:07:21 <Sato0x> I finished my brainfawk interpreter
06:07:56 <monqy> is brainfawk different from brainfuck
06:08:16 <monqy> it's not on the wiki; what does it do?
06:08:30 <Sato0x> I had a misconception about brainfuck
06:08:42 <Sato0x> and like the way I was doing it better
06:08:46 <Sato0x> therefore it's not brainfuck
06:08:56 <elliott> what was the misconception
06:09:22 <Sato0x> I assumed that each element was an individual value of 0 at the start
06:09:42 <Sato0x> and you incremented/decremented each element through the program
06:10:15 <Sato0x> and that . would print the number value of the element
06:10:32 <Sato0x> but in brainfuck it goes with the ascii char
06:10:36 <elliott> but i don't know what your other things mean
06:12:12 <pikhq_> It outputs just a bitstream, which is going to be interpreted as ASCII (well, actually, it's liable to be interpreted as UTF-8 with VT100 control codes)
06:12:26 <kmc> all of my brainfuck programs output KOI8-R, i don't know about you
06:12:54 <pikhq_> Ah, maximally esoteric.
06:13:34 <kmc> eh it's not a very esoteric character encoding
06:13:59 <Sato0x> that name sounds familiar
06:14:07 <pikhq_> kmc: Could go for something stranger. Is there an Arabic adaptation of EBCDIC?
06:14:26 <Sato0x> brainfawk has integers and spaces
06:14:43 <kmc> printf '\x01' | iconv -f cp437 -t utf8
06:14:48 <kmc> why doesn't this give me a smiley face?!?
06:15:03 <pikhq_> Sato0x: Seems fairly unuseful.
06:15:06 <qfr> Allaah doesn't love you enough, kmc
06:15:06 <monqy> so brainfawk is pretty much your average brainfuck derivative
06:15:13 <qfr> That's why you don't get a smiley
06:15:38 <kmc> i guess it only sometimes stands for a smiley
06:15:44 <monqy> by the way, where's ph
06:15:49 <kmc> and other times it's SOH
06:16:13 <qfr> Yes, Allaah loves Haskell people
06:16:21 <qfr> But only those who are lost in discussing abstract concepts
06:16:32 <qfr> If you start actually coding in Haskell, the love fades
06:16:42 <Sato0x> you disapprove of brainfawk?
06:16:46 <monqy> am i a haskell people
06:16:47 <elliott> one of my multitude of sins
06:16:56 <kmc> Sato0x, we see so many brainfuck derivatives
06:17:02 <kmc> and brainfuck isn't that weird to begin with
06:17:21 <kmc> it's a very vanilla sort of tape machine
06:17:33 <kmc> in fact very similar constructions were developed in early theoretical computer science
06:17:33 <monqy> brainfuck derivative is just about as unoriginal as you can get, so it has to be pretty spectacular to be any good
06:18:38 <pikhq_> Dimensifuck really was kinda neat. Shame I never did anything with it.
06:20:46 <Sato0x> one that takes in octal
06:21:02 <monqy> what do you mean "one"
06:21:08 <pikhq_> Trust me, the IO is really uninteresting.
06:21:47 <monqy> renaming bf instructions is probably the worst thing you can do, i/o is second-worst, additional commands third-worst?
06:22:07 <monqy> or put them all together as
06:22:12 <monqy> the worst thing package bundle
06:22:28 <pikhq_> Really, the only thing slightly interesting about Brainfuck is that it's a Turing tarpit that can just about input and output all valid strings, that happens to be relatively popular.
06:22:50 <elliott> as long as they contain no 0s
06:23:18 <pikhq_> elliott: Well, if you use 16-bit Brainfuck and -1 on EOF it actually works.
06:23:25 <pikhq_> (but that's certainly not normal)
06:23:49 <ais523> bignum BF, EOF = -1 is vaguely sensible
06:24:34 <pikhq_> I think all the Brainfuck I've written breaks on bignum BF. Also >8-bit BF.
06:24:47 <pikhq_> Sato0x: [citation needed]
06:25:17 <monqy> don't you just have that gut feeling
06:25:18 <kmc> this conversation is headed places
06:25:21 <monqy> I sure know I'm evil!
06:26:37 <elliott> i'm white and i can confirm this
06:26:48 <pikhq_> elliott: [pics or gtfo]
06:26:53 <elliott> i'm also a sinner though so i'm not sure how much that counts for
06:28:18 <qfr> Why? Have you done anything that is haraam?
06:28:25 <qfr> have you consumed pork or drunk alcohol?
06:28:39 <kmc> i got drunk with a pig, does that count
06:28:54 <pikhq_> qfr: Heck, I did both at the same time earlier today.
06:28:56 <qfr> You make the prophet cry!
06:29:32 <pikhq_> And I would do it again, for pig-meat is glorious.
06:29:40 <monqy> I've consumed mouthwash
06:29:44 <monqy> that has alcohol in it right
06:29:53 <pikhq_> monqy: Depends on the mouthwash.
06:30:16 <qfr> I switched to non-alcholic mouthwash
06:30:32 <qfr> Because I heard of studies that showed a slight increase in mouth cancer
06:30:35 <monqy> I think it's listerine but I don't check the labels I just wash my mouth
06:30:36 <qfr> In those who used alcoholic mouthwash
06:31:09 <qfr> Do you smoke? :(
06:31:58 <qfr> How many cigs are you per day
06:40:39 <shachaf> elliott: Wait, school = smoke?
06:51:53 <Sato0x> it's now plain old brainfuck in php
06:52:42 <Sato0x> anybody want to collaborate on a new esoteric lang?
06:54:01 <kmc> what's your idea Sato0x
06:54:35 <Sato0x> a racist programming language
06:54:49 <zzo38> Hay! That's racist!
06:55:05 <shachaf> Anyway, there are already plenty of those.
06:55:12 <shachaf> Every language that assumes its input is ASCII.
06:55:42 <Sato0x> https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=racist+programming+language
06:57:59 <elliott> "It's clever, but the use of color to discriminate between browsers in both cases is unfortunate; it evokes comparisons with our cultural history of racism and segregation."
06:58:03 <zzo38> Do you expect Google to tell you everything?
06:58:05 <elliott> thanks Coding Horror, I can always rely on you to be fucking moronic
06:58:15 <elliott> did u know serving differently styled webpage to IE6 = raciesm?
06:58:41 <qfr> I did a lot of JavaScript recently
06:58:45 <qfr> I gave up on anything below IE9
06:58:51 <qfr> No, I'm serious
06:59:06 <Sato0x> sato only uses it for ajax..
06:59:10 <qfr> https://github.com/epicvrvs/RiotControl/tree/master/Web/Script/Module
06:59:13 <kmc> who's sato
06:59:38 <qfr> I made a project where pretty much the entire web content is generated by JavaScript :|
06:59:45 <qfr> No regular HTML at all
06:59:50 <qfr> Except to load one JavaScritp file
07:00:08 <qfr> You might wonder "why would you ever do that"
07:00:18 <kmc> it's becoming more common
07:00:20 <qfr> It's a centralised web interface for local server instances people run
07:00:38 <qfr> The JavaScript then queries their local servers to get JSON data
07:00:48 <kmc> there is a philosophy that your web service should be a backend with a public API, and the web frontend is just one of many frontends people could write
07:00:57 <qfr> And when I want to modify the "soft logic" of the application I just modify the JavaScript
07:00:58 <kmc> and so of course the service has no business generating HTML
07:01:01 <qfr> And the changes go live everywhere
07:01:09 <kmc> rather you write some HTML and CSS and Javascript as a separate project
07:01:18 <kmc> and that JS talks to the backend's API and generates views locally
07:01:19 <pikhq_> I have a philosophy that lynx should be a viable browser.
07:01:23 <qfr> Unluckily this also resulted in stuff like I making a mistake in some file without testing it properly
07:01:28 <qfr> And then going to sleep
07:01:32 <kmc> there are Javascript MVC libraries for this purpose
07:01:35 <qfr> And waking up to hundreds of people screaming at me
07:01:40 <zzo38> If you want it secure, you could use SSH
07:01:41 <Sato0x> I have a philosophy that yeah..
07:01:42 <qfr> Because I broke all instances of the application around the world
07:01:52 <qfr> By modifying the centralised script data
07:01:59 <shachaf> I like to unpack my MCV into a construction yard.
07:02:23 <kmc> a browser is something that views documents
07:02:28 <qfr> And I made it a web GUI so people could also expose their service to the world if they wanted to, which went as planned
07:02:44 <kmc> firefox and chrome are not just browsers; they're virtual machines for running arbitrary applications which happen to be delivered over HTTP
07:02:51 <kmc> lynx is still a fine browser
07:03:05 <kmc> and the fact that it does not run arbitrary applications delivered over HTTP might be considered one of its strengths
07:03:21 <qfr> Firebug <3
07:03:38 <pikhq_> Javascript/CSS/HTML/HTTP is such a pitiful application stack.
07:03:38 <qfr> kmc I somewhat realised that when I looked at that SQLite manager for Firefox
07:03:50 <kmc> it is pretty weird
07:03:52 <qfr> It's like an entire application running through the Firefox toolkit
07:03:54 <qfr> It's pretty weird
07:03:58 <qfr> I think it uses CSS internally
07:04:09 <zzo38> pikhq_: I agree Javascript/CSS/HTML/HTTP is a stupid application stack you can make something better surely.
07:04:14 <kmc> on the other hand unix sockets and X11 and GTK is also a weird stack if you look at it right
07:04:14 <pikhq_> qfr: Firefox *itself* is written that way.
07:04:25 <kmc> and it's written mostly in unsafe languages
07:04:25 <qfr> kmc ya hehe
07:04:37 <kmc> the stacks people use tend to be weird
07:04:55 <pikhq_> X11 is at *least* as bad as the Javascript/CSS/HTML/HTTP stack.
07:04:58 <zzo38> XUL is one thing, but you can also use a telnet application for remote service; SSH if you need secure and a few other functions too. But, there is also gopher, FTP, IRC, use whatever work in this case
07:05:48 <elliott> you know what the only non-weird stack is
07:05:58 <elliott> fuck all of you, why haven't you implemented @ yet
07:06:18 <elliott> and now i have to compile haskell-src-exts
07:06:34 <zzo38> elliott: Why haven't *you* implemented @ yet? I don't know how and probably everyone else also probably doesn't know how
07:07:28 <zzo38> calamari: Do you mean me or elliott?
07:08:15 <calamari> let me rephrase, what are you guys talking about?
07:08:27 <zzo38> calamari: Read it!
07:08:42 <calamari> or is the language called "@"? "
07:09:00 <Sato0x> What's that esoteric language derived from something in diablo
07:09:12 <elliott> calamari: the language can be called @
07:09:26 <zzo38> O, it is a computer
07:10:31 <zzo38> O, it is a punctuation mark
07:11:02 <ais523> written in @lang, which is a vaporware language
07:11:12 <ais523> only neither @ nor @lang are their actual names, they're just placeholders
07:11:30 <ais523> we know a few details about @, and none about @lang (except that it's defined to be perfect)
07:18:28 <itidus20> ais523: is @ the same thing as @lang?
07:18:39 <ais523> itidus20: no, they're an OS and language respectively
07:18:50 <zzo38> I made a program to draw a triangle on a DVI document, but, how to make draw polygon, ellipse, line of thickness, path of line segments of specified thickness such that they will be joined together properly, ...
07:18:53 <ais523> but the two are quite linked
07:19:01 <ais523> sort-of like UNIX and C in terms of their relationship
07:19:53 <pikhq_> Iff we lock him in a hotel room and don't let him out until he has a beta.
07:20:21 <zzo38> pikhq_: And a computer
07:20:31 <itidus20> but a rushed @ might not be the actual @
07:20:52 <itidus20> you might end up with some mes like javascript
07:20:55 <pikhq_> He'll be there for years.
07:21:02 <elliott> the distinction is nothing, it's meaningless
07:21:11 <elliott> actually i'm lying there to further the myth
07:21:19 <elliott> they're properly separate in my in-revision @ design
07:21:28 <elliott> (I think @ was self-contradictory, so I started ripping it apart)
07:21:29 <ais523> ooh, I've got a new esolang idea
07:21:36 <ais523> an esolang that… is a parody of itself
07:21:40 <ais523> this is its only reason for existence
07:21:42 <ais523> and it parodies /that/ too
07:21:58 * ais523 wonders how to create it
07:22:03 <ais523> it probably doesn't actually need a spec
07:22:38 <zzo38> ais523: Is mentioning it on the joke language list sufficient?
07:22:53 <itidus20> designing the parody lang sounds similar to writing a quine
07:23:03 <ais523> it has to actually be a parody of itself, not just be defined to be a parody of itself
07:23:23 <elliott> pikhq_: btw, I don't have any particular problems being locked in a hotel room with a computer
07:23:54 <zzo38> OK. I don't know how a quine would be written in this context but OK
07:24:29 <zzo38> But yes it does seem like a quine to me too once you explain a bit
07:24:58 <zzo38> How can you write a quine in itself?
07:25:07 <itidus20> well... ok.. you begin with a language-writing language
07:25:14 <pikhq_> elliott: And no internet. So you might actually be productive. :P
07:25:19 <itidus20> and you start making statements in it
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07:25:42 <itidus20> the parody could be written in brainfuck
07:26:07 <itidus20> no im totally missing the point
07:32:24 <zzo38> If you do not know where you are, but you have the correct date and time (in UTC), and you can see outside, but cannot identify any landmarks, then can you figure out your location?
07:33:25 <zzo38> If someone takes you in a dark plane to somewhere so that you cannot know where you are, will they steal your watch too?
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07:39:26 <zzo38> OK, then, how will you determine your location?
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07:56:24 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Mon Apr 9 08:56:51
07:57:25 <lambdabot> Local time for Sato0x is Mon Apr 09 03:57:23 2012
08:01:09 <ais523> zzo38: I think you'd need to know which way north was
08:01:21 <ais523> then you could, if you were good enough at estimating which way the sun was
08:01:51 <ais523> at local midday, your shadow points exactly north or south; the UTC time then lets you calculate longitude, and the length and direction of the shadow latitude
08:04:43 <shachaf> kmc: Did you see http://exploit-exercises.com/ ?
08:05:05 <shachaf> I wonder whether it's any good. Downloading a VM is kind of a big up-front cost.
08:07:36 <ais523> btw, git's interface for merges really sucks
08:08:02 <ais523> the only solution I've found for a complex merge is to make one stab at it, commit, then rebase fixes onto it until it compiles and merges…
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08:08:46 <NSQX> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:NSQX/CPUFuck.cpp
08:09:08 <NSQX> A program which will convert any text into a brainfuck program which will display the text
08:09:28 <EgoBot> 56 ++++++++[>+++++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>.---.+++++++..+++.>++. [136]
08:09:51 <ais523> !bf_txtgen This is much more efficient on longer strings than your method.
08:09:54 <EgoBot> 557 +++++++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++>++>+++++++<<<<-]>------.++++++++++++++++++++.+.>-----.>++.<<.>.>.<<++++.>++.------------------.>>-.<.<<.++.+++.>++.>.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<+..>>+.<--.>.----.<+++++++++++.<<++.>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------.<+.<++++++++.>>.<---.<+.-.<-------------.--.>>++++++.>.<+.+.--.<-----.+++++.-------.>+.>.<+.<+.<----.>++++++.>>.<+++++.<+.>----.---.
08:10:09 <ais523> although far from perfect, it seems
08:10:19 <elliott> yes, !bf_txtgen is actually kind of rubbish :)
08:10:25 <shachaf> elliott: Aw. I thought you said it was.
08:10:32 <elliott> shachaf: You can implement a DHT with it.
08:10:44 <shachaf> elliott: !bf_txtgen is Kolmogorovically optimal, right?!
08:11:16 <ais523> NSQX: do you have a local copy of nbf2c? because we need to delete the mislicensed copy on the wiki
08:12:09 <NSQX> Yes, I have a local copy.
08:15:07 <zzo38> ais523: Yes it is as I thought; but, is it necessary to know which way is north, or can that be determined by the passing of the time? And what if you do not even have the UTC time of day (but you do know which month it is)?
08:15:57 <ais523> zzo38: I guess you could work out north by averaging the position of sunset and sunrise and correcting for the earth's rotation
08:16:03 <ais523> would be quite slow, though
08:16:22 <ais523> I think without knowing north, you'd have to observe both a sunset and a sunrise to calculate your location
08:16:44 <zzo38> Yes, I thought that might help
08:16:45 <ais523> without knowing UTC time of day, you can't calculate longitude to any accuracy; latitude is still possible
08:17:23 <ais523> gah git, why do you have to end up repeatedly conflicting just because I tried to edit an older patch?
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08:18:55 <zzo38> Would the moon help?
08:19:04 <ais523> actually, I think the problem is that I edited a correction into the wrong patch originally, and it moved to the correct patch via a series of conflicts when I tried to make another change to that patch
08:19:50 <kmc> shachaf, cool
08:20:30 <kmc> has a lot of levels
08:20:39 <NSQX> There's only one bug in my CPUFuck.cpp program: An extra '.' is added at the end
08:20:43 <zzo38> (Since the moon moves faster)
08:20:43 <kmc> looks like much of the code is online
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08:24:15 <NSQX> http://brainfu.ck/++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++++++++..----.------------------------------------------------------.-----------..+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++++++++++++.-----------------.++++++++.+++++.--------.+++++++++++++++.-----------------------------------------------------------------------.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
08:24:49 -!- NSQX has left.
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08:27:00 <kmc> Oops! Google Chrome could not find brainfu.ck
08:27:42 -!- NSQX has joined.
08:27:54 <elliott> btw, .ck doesn't take registrations at second-level
08:27:59 <elliott> so brainfu.ck can't be registered
08:28:43 <NSQX> Everyone, would you prefer !bf_textgen or http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:NSQX/CPUFuck.cpp?
08:29:11 <zzo38> And even if it is does not necessarily mean there is an HTTP service there, and even if there is HTTP service doesn't necessarily mean it is on port 80, and even if it does have HTTP service on port 80 does not necessarily mean it isn't temporarily down
08:29:11 <monqy> I wouldn't use either
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08:30:59 -!- NSQX has left.
08:31:05 -!- NSQX has joined.
08:31:07 <monqy> bye nsqx hi nsqx bye nsqx hi nsqx
08:31:40 -!- NSQX has left.
08:31:55 <monqy> what's up with that guy
08:33:57 <Sgeo> monqy, you haven't said hi to him frequently enough
08:34:55 <Sgeo> "Yay", NSQX made a program similar to a script I included with the PSOX stuff
08:35:11 <monqy> Sgeo: I used to have strict requirements for when I said hi but then everyone started saying hi and it all got weird
08:35:12 <Sgeo> At any rate, !bf_txtgen produces more compact code.
08:36:28 <ais523> `addquote <monqy> Sgeo: I used to have strict requirements for when I said hi but then everyone started saying hi and it all got weird
08:36:37 <HackEgo> 825) <monqy> Sgeo: I used to have strict requirements for when I said hi but then everyone started saying hi and it all got weird
08:36:53 <shachaf> monqy: What were your requirements?
08:37:03 <monqy> strict that's what
08:37:12 <Sgeo> They were also requirements!
08:37:22 <monqy> sgeo hits the nail right on the head
08:37:52 <shachaf> I have strict requirements too.
08:38:40 <monqy> I forget exactly what they were
08:39:00 <shachaf> mcstar> i didnt know haskell supported C# and F#
08:39:42 <monqy> something to do with abrupt conversation derailments, particularly when the new subject is stupid
08:40:18 <shachaf> What if the hi is the new subject?
08:41:11 -!- ais523 has changed nick to scarf.
08:43:22 <elliott> monqy: can we go back to the old kind of his
08:44:08 <monqy> elliott: I'll try but it's hard when everyone else is saying hi all the time!
08:44:10 <qfr> pikhq I stand corrected, a Mono dev just told me their new generational GC is only used in mobile Mono applications right now
08:44:17 <qfr> It's not used by default in regualr Mono yet
08:44:21 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to swhat.
08:44:25 <monqy> Sgeo: plural of hi
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08:45:16 <shachaf> Or maybe The Nomad.Reader.
08:45:40 <monqy> shachaf: will you swear off hi forever
08:45:49 * pikhq notes the kola borehole is awesome
08:47:07 <monqy> it was a question not a command; you can hi all you want
08:50:14 <qfr> What is the best garbage collection technology around right now, in your opinion?
08:50:40 <qfr> For desktop/server stuff
08:50:43 <HackEgo> 405) <Gregor> You have no idea how desperately I want to avoid being a GC guy :P <Gregor> Every year I go to ISMM and Doug Lea gives me a bizarrely-cheery "Hello!" and I'm like "awww shit I'm in memory management"
08:50:44 <qfr> Not embedded
08:50:50 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel isn't embedded
08:51:50 <nortti> I'd say collecting your own garbage
08:52:28 <elliott> yeah, everybody knows the additional cognitive burden of tracking every data dependency through your program is worth it -- because then it's faster. oh wait! manual memory management isn't actually faster
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08:52:39 <nortti> oh it wasn't for embedded systems
08:52:51 <scarf> hmm, I'd say manual memory management is /sometimes/ faster, depending on what you're doing
08:53:20 <scarf> what might be interesting would be compile-time GC
08:53:33 <scarf> where it statically analyzes the program to work out where all the free()s have to go
08:53:41 <scarf> obviously wouldn't always be possible, but for many programs it would be
08:54:18 <qfr> http://www.mono-project.com/Generational_GC
08:54:39 <monqy> is gggggggggc a thing
08:55:04 <scarf> on the subject of GC, apparently Go's GC is far too conservative
08:55:33 <scarf> and ends up sometimes not collecting anything just because there's a pointer-like bit pattern in memory sometimes
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08:55:52 <scarf> (people have accused 1.0f as being a common culprit)
08:57:31 <qfr> That's so odd, does it have no information about the types of objects stored?
08:57:45 <elliott> no, Go has the operational semantics of C
08:57:52 <scarf> the GC doesn't, no, it's just a conservative GC
08:57:53 <qfr> That sounds awful
08:58:13 <scarf> and apparently, unlike Boehm, it doesn't refuse to allocate stuff at addresses that already happen to share a bit-pattern with something in memory
08:58:17 <scarf> (a good way to keep down false positives)
08:58:23 <scarf> (although obviously not a perfect one)
08:59:41 <pikhq> scarf: And has a neat effect of reducing your address space further.
09:00:32 <scarf> although the sorts of programs that use conservative GCs tend to also be the sorts of programs where running out of address space mean you're also close to running out of actual physical memory
09:01:32 <qfr> What major implementations of interpreters/VMs use reference counting?
09:01:36 <qfr> CPython, who else?
09:02:56 <elliott> both have GCs for cycles iirc
09:03:02 <scarf> elliott: Perl doesn't
09:03:08 <scarf> cycles are documented as not being collected
09:03:37 <scarf> the occasional library that actually uses them typically has a ->delete method and asks you to call it when you're done, and the method breaks the cycle and leaves the object to be GCed normally
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09:04:29 <shachaf> monqy: hi is addictive :-(
09:05:48 <shachaf> kmc: x86 instruction encoding looks complicated.
09:06:09 <shachaf> Should I learn how it works?
09:06:18 <kmc> i don't know much about it
09:06:20 <shachaf> Today I saw a good-looking article on it, but I lost it.
09:10:46 <zzo38> I once wrote a program in C which encodes some x86 instructions
09:11:14 <itidus20> i did some class on that in school once
09:12:00 <itidus20> _everything_ here (in #esoteric) is more complicated than x86 anyway
09:12:31 <itidus20> ok well it wasn't a class it was just a sort of topic
09:12:33 <shachaf> BF encoding is way simpler than x86.
09:13:45 <itidus20> but more programs are encoded in x86 than BF :P
09:13:52 <kmc> <itidus20> _everything_ here (in #esoteric) is more complicated than x86 anyway
09:14:19 <kmc> why do you repeatedly say things that are completely, obviously incorrect?
09:14:37 <itidus20> kmc: it could be that i am actually overestimating everyones intelligence here because i don't understand what it is they do
09:15:03 <kmc> you're also falsely equating "complexity" and "intelligence"
09:15:14 <kmc> a good esolang has a small definition with rich emergent behavior
09:15:23 <kmc> x86 has huge piles of arbitrary / historical complexity
09:15:42 <shachaf> I guess you would count that as a bad esolang.
09:15:52 <itidus20> i am amused that anyone who can keep up with esolangs would be worried about x86 encoding
09:16:07 <shachaf> x86 encoding keeps me up at night.
09:16:16 <shachaf> ...Technically that is true.
09:16:29 <kmc> but i would probably be awake anyway :)
09:17:50 <elliott> kmc: I've ruined edwardk's day by making him spend 5 hours updating packages just so I could make a package work on Hugs to prove a point.
09:18:07 <shachaf> kmc: You should read Raymond Smullyan.
09:18:10 <itidus20> i guess what i mean is that out of all possible topics here, x86 encoding is surely one of the most trivial
09:18:12 <elliott> That's the kind of quality you can expect when you allow me to talk to you!
09:18:37 <shachaf> elliott: What's the point?
09:18:38 <kmc> itidus20, but that's just a completely false statement
09:18:42 <itidus20> it doesn't require any mind-bending to grasp it
09:18:52 <shachaf> itidus20: Do you know how x86 encoding works?
09:18:59 <kmc> i don't see how you can use the word "surely" when you clearly have no idea what you're talking about
09:19:14 <itidus20> i recall it has something like 3bits for 1 thing 3 bits for another thing then another 2 bits
09:19:20 <shachaf> kmc: Not having any idea what you're talking about makes it very easy to use the word "surely". :-)
09:19:23 <kmc> i'm not trying to be mean here
09:19:26 <itidus20> but probably gets more complex as it goes into 64bits
09:19:30 <kmc> i'm just honestly baffled by the way you communicate
09:19:32 <shachaf> 3 bits for 1 thing 3 bits for another and 2 bits there.
09:19:42 <kmc> x86 modes are 8 bits and 64 bits?
09:20:00 <shachaf> kmc: No, it's a continuum with 8 and 64 at the extremes.
09:20:03 <itidus20> i don't know all the details :-s
09:20:07 <shachaf> Right now I'm using about 38 bits.
09:20:13 <elliott> <shachaf> elliott: What's the point?
09:20:22 <elliott> shachaf: That the fast impl of reflection is not totally unportable.
09:20:24 <kmc> itidus20, no, you don't know *any* of the details
09:20:35 <kmc> you know *negative* details because the things you think you know are wrong
09:20:53 <elliott> kmc: To itidus20, "surely" means "I'm posturing this absurd statement to try and be seen as somebody with insight and/or as trolling"
09:21:18 <shachaf> kmc: A great work of art uses positive space and negative space.
09:21:29 <shachaf> itidus20 knows negative details.
09:21:55 <scarf> this statement is insightful and/or trolling
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11:02:59 <qfr> The ways of the world ^
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13:28:49 <scarf> you know what the world needs? an Achron/Adanaxis crossover
13:31:24 <elliott> scarf: tell me about linux
13:31:44 <scarf> but those aren't as mindbreaking
13:31:48 <scarf> well, apart from perhaps C++
13:32:34 <elliott> scarf: i don't care just keep the words
13:34:02 <scarf> elliott: you probably need to go to bed again :)
13:35:48 <elliott> scarf: tell me about the decimalisation of the UK currency system
13:36:00 <elliott> (i actually want to know this)
13:36:23 <scarf> I don't know a whole lot…
13:37:17 <elliott> reading it on wikipedia spoils the magic
13:37:36 <elliott> like did everyone have to change their currency one day
13:37:46 <elliott> was there a big day of noneconomics because nobody could do anything but currency-change
13:40:14 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rx1EwdbmrR4 awesome
13:41:38 <elliott> "Biggest rip off in the 20th century. Change a thousand year old system which worked fine to please the foreigners and rip off the British public at the same time. Welcome to modern Britain!"
13:43:59 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: The USA has non-decimal units of measure. Something we are mocked for by all other nations on a near-constant basis. Be glad your country managed to get off non-decimal currency ;)
13:45:10 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Well yeah but it's MOSTLY decimal.
13:45:23 <elliott> Dollars and cents make sense (HAR HAR HAR), you just have weird historical nicknames.
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13:46:28 <elliott> I totally misread your original line, sorry :P
13:46:51 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Yeah, your units are stupid. But we have the same problems at a smaller scale.
13:47:00 <elliott> Feet and inches are how we measure height, and distances are in miles.
13:47:15 <elliott> Thankfully we've more-or-less exterminated the old weights through force.
13:48:22 <nortti> is there any logic in conversion from inches to feet or feet to miles?
13:48:36 <nortti> or is it just some random value
13:49:41 <RocketJSquirrel> nortti: Each length was derived from some real-world amount that was vaguely useful at the time, but we've lost most of the intermediary units that made things add up sensibly.
13:50:36 <elliott> 1 foot = 1/3 yards, though.
13:50:50 <elliott> It makes sense in base 12 or summat.
14:20:56 <nortti> also does farenhait scale have any sensible origin?
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14:26:24 <RocketJSquirrel> <nortti> also does farenhait scale have any sensible origin?
14:26:32 <RocketJSquirrel> nortti: Freezing point of brine, body temperature of a horse.
14:26:59 <RocketJSquirrel> It is not, contrary to popular misconception, the body temperature of Farenheit with a fever.
14:28:05 <RocketJSquirrel> The freezing point of brine was chosen because it was the lowest temperature that was both used in practical life and relatively easy to measure. The body temperature of a horse was chosen because our society is seriously horses all the way down.
14:54:25 <qfr> [15:50:41] <nortti> furlong?
14:54:33 <qfr> It's a unit of distance used by furries
14:54:47 <qfr> A furlong is the height of an average yiff
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15:05:49 <lambdabot> Local time for fizzie is Mon Apr 9 18:05:48 2012
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15:32:25 <Sgeo> More depressing than those "This is a once-in-a-lifetime calendar event" things:
15:32:52 <Sgeo> Seeing one that was literally taken from last year, with the current year slapped on it, such that it doesn't even match this year's calendar.
15:33:26 <Sgeo> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=424793280870274&set=p.424793280870274&type=1&theater
15:41:59 <Deewiant> http://www.bitc-lang.org/pipermail/bitc-dev/2012-April/003315.html
15:43:23 <elliott> Seen, but Deewiant++ anyway
15:46:13 <Sgeo> http://imgur.com/QRTYk
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15:47:00 <elliott> Thanks, I wanted a screenshot of that page you just linked
15:47:24 <Sgeo> Oh, I forgot I linked
15:51:51 -!- RocketJSquirrel has set topic: Do you like rotating mazes? Do you like the other idea? | I do not like rotating mazes. I do not like them Mr. Z. I do not like them in a tree. I do not like them in the fog, I do not like them on a log. I do not like rot' maze, you see, I prefer my lab'rinth's normalcy. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
15:53:21 <RocketJSquirrel> Idonno why this Dr. Seuss guy thinks he's so hot. I could do that shit.
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16:27:01 <olsner> oh, apparently bitc had "transcode C++ code without re-architecting at the same time." as a goal
16:27:26 <olsner> sounds like SVN's "let's fix CVS" idea
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18:36:52 <augur> fizzie, or other finns, can i annoy you?
18:38:39 <augur> lemme get some judgements from you!
18:38:53 <augur> thats why i want it from you
18:39:16 <oklopol> you descriptionists make me sick
18:45:27 <augur> oklopol: punaisen ostin auto == good, right?
18:46:04 <oklopol> then it's weird but correct.
18:46:26 <augur> ok, i only want to know if its weird or not weird or just shit
18:46:30 <oklopol> can't think of a context where it isn't weird really
18:46:53 <augur> ostin sen punaisen auto
18:47:10 <augur> (put the sen wherever it might need to go)
18:47:30 <oklopol> in the way that you dropped the n again
18:47:49 <augur> punaisen ostin sen auton
18:48:19 <oklopol> well it can't really mean i bought the red car
18:49:02 <oklopol> (if it's "punaisena", then it's something specific and okay, but i guess that's not part of the game)
18:51:01 <oklopol> so it means i bought the red version of the car
18:51:06 <oklopol> yeah it's this thing we have
18:53:09 <augur> punaisena ostin auton
18:53:42 <oklopol> i would interpret that "while i was being red, i bought a car". i think.
18:54:40 <augur> ostin punaisen sen auton // ostin sen auton punaisen
18:54:53 <oklopol> ostin sen punaisen auton is idiomatic
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18:55:16 <oklopol> the latter is somewhat silly and poetic, ut makes sense, the first one makes no sense
18:55:17 <Vorpal> Hm... Finnish is really an amazingly complex language.
18:55:47 <augur> what do you mean by idiomatic
18:55:54 <augur> ostin punaisena sen auton // ostin sen auton punaisena
18:55:55 <oklopol> that's what you'd actually say
18:56:04 <augur> oklopol: oh, so you mean colloquiual
18:56:16 <HackEgo> uhoavioikselta sijailemä liukulaveamme totultani tyyppyä hiensistänne säveltaattomamme kahlitsetullume läisemmassa nahkeistavillä ikistisemme suoriipa funkeimpieni tarkoissanne piisinteilta sollasiallan punoitavasta merkimilleen määnansa poikastuma suudeksensa harmimpiansa kömpeämme ahjomamme vieraa
18:56:17 <augur> idiomatic means non-literal, like "kick the bucket" = "die"
18:56:34 <augur> oklopol: so how about those two with punaisena now
18:57:04 <oklopol> latter perhaps slightly better
18:57:47 <oklopol> my b key isn't working properly :(
18:58:05 <augur> ok thank you oklopol :)
18:58:24 <augur> we've discovered that essive case marking is a small-clause secondary predicate head!
18:59:20 <oklopol> what are you basing that on?
19:00:03 <oklopol> not that i have much more than a guess at what that means
19:00:26 <augur> oklopol: the cases where "red" is clearly modifying the verb seem to prohibit extraction of the adjective, but when it's essive, it's allowed, and since the meaning of essive is something like "as", it's reasonable to think that it's a secondary predicate outside of the NP "sen auton"
19:00:48 <augur> oh i should ask real quick
19:00:52 <augur> ostin sen punaisena auton
19:00:53 <oklopol> okay that was what i thought you based it on, so perhaps i do understand what you mean
19:01:06 <oklopol> sorry, sen and auto are close friends.
19:01:15 <oklopol> unless there's an adjective there ofc
19:01:17 <augur> so that suggests that punaisena is not modifying the NP
19:02:24 <oklopol> so "sen ... auto" means some specific car, and you can stick modifiers in-between.
19:02:37 <oklopol> but punaisena is not a modifier, but kind of its own little subsentence
19:02:51 <augur> we have these in english too
19:03:13 <augur> they describe a state of some argument of a predicate _during_ the time the predicate holds
19:03:26 <augur> e.g. "I bought the car new" means when i bought the car, the car was new
19:03:38 <augur> or "I bought the car nude" means when i bought the car, I was nude
19:04:49 <oklopol> well right, i would say new and nude are in essive there
19:06:02 <oklopol> in fact when i was 10 or something, when i saw english nouns out of context, i would often picture them being in the essive case, because it was funny.
19:07:41 <oklopol> "new, i bought the car" seems completely wrong
19:08:18 <oklopol> presumably because cars are new and people are nude
19:08:32 <augur> yeah its bad in english too
19:08:41 <augur> but at the end both are fine for me
19:09:05 <oklopol> well i would be a bit surprised if someone actually said "nude, i bought the car"
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19:09:28 <augur> oh, no its fine in english
19:09:40 <augur> it has some specific information packaging, but its fine
19:10:48 <oklopol> it seems like such a surprising piece of information that i think it would be formulated differently in most contexts
19:11:31 <nortti> sorry if this question is stupid butis it possible to convert any DFA with true and false end states to regular expression
19:11:45 <oklopol> what are true and false states?
19:12:10 <oklopol> with pretty much any definition of language acceptance with DFA, they will give the same class of languages
19:12:34 <oklopol> which are exactly what regular expressions with union, concatenation and star give you
19:14:02 <oklopol> anyhow afaik, the conversion is not really feasible in practise, i believe it's at most exponential blowup, and this can be reached
19:16:04 <oklopol> in case you care about that sort of thing
19:17:05 <oklopol> i have this one theorem where you get like double factorial + some exponentials for state blow-up, and if anything i'm proud of its utter uselessness.
19:17:31 <oklopol> still proves the classes equal
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19:20:44 -!- oerjan has set topic: Do you like rotating mazes? Do you like the other idea? | I do not like rotating mazes. I do not like them Mr. Z. I do not like them in a tree. I do not like them in the fog, I do not like them on a log. I do not like rot' maze, you see, I prefer my lab'rinth's normalcy. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:21:01 <oerjan> (that space looked out of place)
19:21:19 <oklopol> is the first one a zzo quote?
19:22:53 <oerjan> i declare today's logs Too Damn Long To Read.
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19:23:11 <nortti> I am trying to convert following DFA to regular expression: there are five states named A,B,C,true and false. Execution starts at state A. If input is 1 it goes throught the states in the order A,B,C,A,B,C... one state change per 1 and if input is 0 it is otherwise the same, but order is A,C,B,A,C,B... instead. When input is 2 and DFA is in state A it goes to state True, but if it is in state B or C it goes to state False. I haven't
19:23:32 <oklopol> wait you are *actually converting something to something*?
19:23:41 <oklopol> that's not really my territory
19:23:46 <oklopol> i'm more into saying it's obvious how to do it
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19:25:09 <Vorpal> nortti, for me the conversion is usually quite simple if I draw up the graph of the state machine in question. Can't really help you when you express it in text like that though.
19:25:35 <nortti> I can work it out with just states A,B,true and false where it is ([01][01])*
19:25:36 <oklopol> nortti: can you draw the graph? you left out some info which i don't feel like fishing out of you
19:25:56 <oerjan> hm the other window also died. something tells me this isn't sustainable.
19:26:25 <nortti> oklopol: I am currently on my cellphone
19:26:31 <Vorpal> oerjan, is it just freenode or does it affect other irc networks as well?
19:26:57 <oerjan> Vorpal: it has nothing to do with freenode, it's my connection to the nvg linux server
19:27:09 <Vorpal> oerjan, so is nvg <-> freenode okay?
19:27:09 <oerjan> if i get cut off again i'll try webchat
19:27:29 <Vorpal> oerjan, I assume not since you quit? (Or don't you use screen or such?)
19:27:42 <oerjan> Vorpal: i don't use screen
19:27:53 <Vorpal> well doing that would certainly help debugging this :P
19:29:13 <oklopol> nortti: on a second glance, i suppose you gave all the necessary info
19:29:14 <oerjan> maybe i should use screen so you won't know about it. more peaceful that way.
19:29:34 <Vorpal> oh come on, I was just trying to help
19:29:56 <oerjan> Vorpal: it's more psychological than technical at this point
19:31:17 <oklopol> nortti: when you go to state true or false, you can't continue anymore?
19:31:33 <oklopol> so all words are among (0 + 1)^*2
19:32:07 <oklopol> and the thing before 2 needs to be 0 modulo 3, where 0 is predecessor and 1 is successor
19:32:30 <oklopol> i don't see the regexp directly as i'm too terrified that oerjan sees it before me
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19:35:36 <oklopol> (1X1X1X + 0X0X0X)^* where X = (01 + 10)^*, perhaps
19:35:44 <oklopol> hmm that's too complicated
19:36:42 <oklopol> not entirely sure but the idea is that you can remove any 01 and 10, they won't change the outcome
19:36:56 <nortti> I tried that but it didn't work with 1100111
19:37:08 <oklopol> then you have a unary word and you just check if its length is 0 mod 3
19:38:36 <oklopol> quite the noodle scratcher
19:38:45 <oklopol> unless you just solve the language equation directly
19:38:53 <oklopol> but this should really be solvable directly
19:40:53 <oklopol> you could solve it and see if you get an idea ofc
19:41:02 <oklopol> i don't really feel like doing that in my head right now
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19:42:17 <Sgeo> naughtygirlfinder.com amuses me (don't click [View Profile] links unless you want to give that insipidly stupid site money though)
19:43:00 <Sgeo> Basically: Searching for someone when you haven't searched for someone in the last 60 days (tracked by cookie) ALWAYS says that they're a member with pictures
19:43:14 <oerjan> i guess i should now find out if it affects other than my nvg connection
19:43:22 <oklopol> since we know what the problem actually means, i'd have L_0, L_1 and L_2, where L_i adds i to the current number
19:43:59 <Sgeo> And no, there's no actual pictures of anyone on that site.
19:45:28 <oklopol> L_0 = empty + PL_2 + ML_1 for instance, depending on which letter it starts with
19:45:47 <oerjan> oklopol: did you get a ping from me?
19:46:22 <oerjan> fucking crap, i cannot even ping to check if i'm still connected?
19:47:23 <oerjan> ok i guess i can @ping lambdabot in private
19:47:32 <HackEgo> EgoBot is my arch-nemesis.
19:50:09 <oerjan> of course it might be that webchat won't disconnect but only because it is more resilient against bad connections...
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19:57:48 * oerjan is freaking out because he cannot think of any passive way of distinguishing losing connection from y'all not talking
19:59:04 <nortti> doesn't your irc program tell you if you disconnect from the server?
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19:59:33 <oerjan> the one time previously webchat disconnected, i only found out when i tried to say something
20:10:43 <zzo38> oerjan: Try PING ME and if it is lost connection you won't get a response
20:11:14 <oerjan_> zzo38: well the point was to find a way to check without disturbing others
20:11:31 <zzo38> oerjan_: No, send PING ME to the server
20:12:01 <zzo38> It is what I sometimes do to check that.
20:12:09 <oerjan_> i don't know how to do that in webchat
20:12:25 <zzo38> Then use a client in which you do know how to do that
20:12:47 <oerjan_> also, the _other_ point was that it should be _passive_, i.e. i shouldn't need to constantly do something other than looking
20:13:00 <oerjan_> for irssi, the time in the status bar works
20:13:40 <zzo38> Have the computer send a PING command automatically, then
20:13:59 <oklopol> yes oerjan, just write a script that constantly pings the serveer.
20:14:13 <oklopol> then write a man page for it so others can enjoy it too
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20:14:53 <oerjan_> zzo38: which computer, is the question. i could do it in irssi probably, but that one is _most_ likely to disconnect and fail...
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20:16:01 <oerjan> anyway my connection has been disturbingly stable since i joined both clients.
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20:20:29 <zzo38> What has science come to?
20:21:04 <zzo38> Science is far from perfect, but it is the best we have.
20:21:30 <oerjan> well, soon we should have a picture of a black hole
20:22:57 <zzo38> If it is black, how can you have a picture? What you can do is to calculate how it interferes with surrounding things and then see if the observations match
20:22:59 <oerjan> we've found planets outside the solar system, used muons to scan the vesuvius crater...
20:24:45 <oerjan> we have a pretty usable cyberspace, apart from the neural connections part
20:25:17 <oerjan> ftl is as stuck as ever
20:39:30 <nortti> coroutines look pretty interesting
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21:10:45 <HackEgo> Sato0x: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
21:24:34 <zzo38> I found an article titled "How to Reject Any Scientific Manuscript"
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22:48:42 <Sato0x> How do I publish an esolang?
22:49:03 <zzo38> Sato0x: Create a page on the wiki
22:49:35 <zzo38> That is all you need to do. But all information posted directly on the wiki must be public domain
22:50:37 <Sato0x> mine's kind of like brainfuck
22:51:09 <Sato0x> as in it uses < to move left and > to move right, -/+ as (in/de)crementers
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23:12:05 <kmc> isn't a brickbraining customary at this juncture?
23:13:24 <oerjan> i'm sure Phantom_Hoover will handle that when he returns
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23:16:24 <oerjan> Sato0x: Phantom_Hoover does _not_ like brainfuck derivatives.
23:16:57 <Sato0x> 'tis not a brainfuck deriviative
23:17:08 <Sato0x> It just happens to use those
23:17:46 <Sato0x> them seeming most proper to me: > right arrow < left arrow
23:18:22 <kmc> so what is different from brainfuck
23:20:27 <Sato0x> define dimensions at the beginning with x,y:
23:20:39 <Sato0x> ^ up v down > right < left
23:21:45 <Sato0x> . output the certain element
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23:43:31 <augur> oerjan: which black hole?
23:46:38 <oerjan> either the one in the center of our galaxy, or a much larger one in a galaxy in our local supercluster which i don't remember the name of
23:46:52 <oerjan> depends on which research group get first
23:50:18 <oerjan> http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2011/07/were_going_to_see_a_black_hole.php
23:53:40 <augur> oerjan: ah. well the one at the center of the milky way is going to light up pretty soon
23:54:41 <hagb4rd> talking about jedi..it was pleasent to hear they named the first planet with two suns they found tatooine
23:56:04 <hagb4rd> the home planet of luke skywalker as you know for sure
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23:58:26 <oerjan> augur: the other one is already lit up :)
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00:12:53 <Sgeo> Synchtube is not perfect :(
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00:32:34 <RocketJSquirrel> There's no other symbol but lambda that's universally recognized as a symbol for programming languages, no?
00:33:14 <kmc> lambda is not universally recognized as a symbol for programming languages
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00:33:34 <oerjan> istr it's also a symbol for lesbians?
00:34:50 <hagb4rd> lambda indeed has a lot of associations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda
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00:36:04 <kmc> my point is more than putting lambdas on everything is a kind of political statement within programming languages
00:36:19 <RocketJSquirrel> It's not that everyone recognizes it as a symbol for programming languages, but those who are "into" programming languages consider it a symbol for the concept.
00:36:27 <kmc> or will be seen as such by many
00:36:52 <kmc> plenty of people appreciate FP and yet are annoyed by the people who think that incorporating crazy FP concepts is the only criterion for language goodness
00:38:15 <qfr> [02:36:04] <kmc> my point is more than putting lambdas on everything is a kind of political statement within programming languages
00:41:34 <kmc> itidus22, the jedis lived a long time ago and are surely dead by now
00:41:55 <kmc> or maybe they came to earth and are now known as.... LISP PROGRAMMERS!?!?!?
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00:56:28 <oerjan> kmc: yes but the galaxy is 50 million light years away, so their light may not have reached us yet
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00:59:11 <kmc> is that canon?
01:05:27 <olsner> kmc: far far = 50 million light years
01:10:17 <Sgeo> We were talking about far far away Jedis, so it's Star Trek, clearly.
01:12:31 <epoch_qwert> All I saw that hinted at starwars was "galaxy ... away" and "far far"
01:13:06 <shachaf> olsner: How many light years is far?
01:13:20 <epoch_qwert> far far = 50 million, far = sqrt(far far) ?
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02:55:33 <zzo38> quintopia: Hello. Any question/comment/complaint?
02:56:25 <quintopia> also in the topic what is "the other idea"
02:57:13 <zzo38> quintopia: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/recording/level20_idea.txt
02:58:24 <shachaf> kmc: There are all sorts of other complications like running code in the mapped pages.
02:59:28 <zzo38> That is what "the other idea" is that I was refering to
02:59:29 <quintopia> zzo38: i like the "no monsters in the library" one
02:59:58 <calamari> is there an esolang that requires nested escaping to do anything useful?
03:00:07 <zzo38> quintopia: Well, it is based on something in the computer game "Super ASCII MZX Town", which contains a lot of silly stuff.
03:00:48 <shachaf> The word "tutorial" annoys me more and more these days.
03:00:57 <zzo38> calamari: Yes I think there is, but I forget what it is called
03:00:57 <shachaf> Probably mostly for vaguely conalish reasons.
03:01:26 <calamari> I was just working on a shell script escaping backticks and quotes (where the amount of escaping was different for each) and thought .. wow this would make for a great esolang
03:01:49 <quintopia> calamari: /// has a lot of escaping
03:02:10 <quintopia> zzo38: i don't care if you copy things. it's a good challenge.
03:03:01 <zzo38> quintopia: It is a computer game I made myself, as it turns out. If the monsters needs the book you can go in the library and get it for them, is how this computer game works.
03:04:03 <quintopia> zzo38: oh i was thinking that you were putting it a dnd game, where the party is chased by monsters and they lock themselves inside a library, but if any monster gets end the game ends and everybody dies
03:05:21 <zzo38> quintopia: I did have the idea for the D&D game; but I wrote "apparently" and no this isn't the scenario I was thinking of (the party in this D&D game consist of some monster characters too)
03:05:54 <zzo38> And just because someone wrote that on a sign does not make it true anyways
03:07:00 <quintopia> zzo38: well, it could be that the universe ends only if a monster touches the book-of-power. and even then only if a d20 comes up 9 or less.
03:07:11 <calamari> quintopia: thanks, that's probably close enough
03:08:15 <zzo38> quintopia: That is one way to do what I wrote; not what I had in mind but of course you can make up scenarios in D&D game using my ideas, with various modifications. In Super ASCII MZX Town, the librarian just put that on the sign because they didn't want monsters in their library. But problem is, the sign is *inside* the library.
03:09:56 <quintopia> zzo38: i think you should do it one of these exciting ways. not just silly.
03:11:25 <zzo38> quintopia: Your ways do work. And, yes, it could be possible that they wrote that on the sign even though it is only sometimes the case! And some player characters can be monster characters anyways, but some isn't so it works
03:11:42 <zzo38> But I am not going to write any additional details on that note because I am not the referee
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03:14:24 <zzo38> Usually called the GM or Dungeons Master; "referee" is an uncommon term but I use it
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03:20:31 <quintopia> what is the purpose of that document zzo38?
03:23:31 <zzo38> quintopia: Just some ideas I had for possible situation in Dungeons&Dragons game
03:23:58 <quintopia> zzo38: oh i thought you were making ideas for yourself to use in your own games
03:24:16 <zzo38> If I have my own game then yes I might use the idea too
03:24:47 <zzo38> (Just so you know, Isolde and Kjugobe are names of two of the player characters in a game I am in; of course if use in other game we could change them)
03:25:29 <zzo38> And, the dungeons master does like this list! And in case they run out of idea might pick one I don't know which one is picked, and with some other things too not specified so that we don't know what exactly happened
03:28:53 <zzo38> What would make it interesting is such situations as these interwoven with other things too.
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03:41:53 <zzo38> I have made generalize of function in Haskell, such as: tail :: MonadLogic m => m x -> m x; (!!) :: (Copeanoid i, Foldable t) => t x -> i -> x; length :: (Peanoid i, Foldable t) => t x -> i; filter :: MonadPlus m => (x -> Bool) -> m x -> m x; iterate :: Alternative f => (x -> x) -> x -> f x;
03:42:33 <zzo38> Is it good or is there other way, or other generalize too?
03:47:27 <zzo38> I could have this: unfoldTree :: Functor f => (b -> (a, f b)) -> b -> Cofree f a;
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04:33:39 <quintopia> zzo38: the word you should use there is "generalization"...if you care
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04:42:43 <qfr> I read that as "I have made a generalisation of Haskell" at first
04:43:05 <qfr> Which doesn't seem like an uncommon task
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06:18:08 <NSQX> !bf_txtgen Brainfuck
06:18:13 <EgoBot> 106 +++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++++>+++++++++>+<<<<-]>.>++++.>--.++++++++.+++++.--------.<+++.>---.++++++++.>-. [147]
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06:19:24 <NSQX> !bf_txtgen brainfuck
06:19:26 <EgoBot> 100 ++++++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++>+><<<<-]>.>++.<-.++++++++.+++++.--------.>+++.<---.++++++++.>>----. [149]
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07:47:46 <NSQX> Our sub-lime wiki has been out of order for the last four days. What are you waiting for before you start editing again?
07:49:52 <NSQX> What are you all doing instead of editing this wiki and creating new esoteric programming languages?
07:50:57 <Sgeo> NSQX, it's not out of order.
07:51:43 <Sgeo> Or... what do you mean by out of order
07:52:13 <monqy> quality over quantity, NSQX
07:52:24 <monqy> I'll let you ponder on that
07:52:54 <NSQX> Actually, http://namelesswiki.com/ has been out of order for longer. There has been no real activity on http://namelesswiki.com/ for almost a month and http://namelesswiki.com/wiki/Special:RecentChanges has been filled with spamming of [[Talk:Denial of Service Attack]] since 27th March 2012. However, what if that could happen to our sub-lime wiki?
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07:54:39 <Sgeo> NSQX, I would not use that wiki for security advice.
07:55:17 <NSQX> Anyway, what are you all doing instead of thinking of new esoteric programming languages?
07:55:52 <Sgeo> http://www.namelesswiki.com/wiki/SQL_Injection
07:56:05 <NSQX> zzo38: Everything instead of thinking of new esoteric programming languages or helping with the List of ideas?
07:56:07 <Sgeo> The Prevention section suggests filtering dangerous characters.
07:56:19 <Sgeo> There is no mention of parameterized queries of any sort.
07:56:20 <NSQX> zzo38: Everything except thinking of new esoteric programming languages or helping with the List of ideas?
07:57:02 <zzo38> NSQX: No, everything regardless. Just because we did not post it does not necessarily mean we did not think of it yet!
07:57:04 <Sgeo> There is a not bad, yet utterly irrelevant to the page, suggestion of not storing plaintext passwords
07:58:58 <Sgeo> NSQX, why do you look at nameless wiki?
08:00:29 <NSQX> Actually, the first time I went to the Nameless Wiki is when I went to the "Nameless language at Nameless Wiki" link on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Nameless_language
08:01:40 <monqy> brainfuck derivative?
08:02:14 <shachaf> If you think about it, every language is, like, a BF derivative, man.
08:02:58 <shachaf> monqy: I thought you swore off hi forever.
08:03:15 <monqy> maybe elliotts too
08:03:21 <monqy> but I'm neither elliott not elliotts
08:03:51 <shachaf> do you like peter and the wolf
08:03:57 <monqy> saying hi after greeted is irresistable
08:04:00 <oklopol> RRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
08:04:51 <shachaf> monqy: E.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XKlEfvP-lo
08:06:00 <shachaf> "Obviousness, it seems, eludes some people. Idiots mostly, including you. IDIOT!!!!"
08:06:50 <shachaf> monqy: I don't know whether you've heard of it, but have you heard it?
08:08:48 <shachaf> Oh, no, elliott will read the logs and hate me when he gets back online.
08:09:21 <monqy> maybe he won't read the logs
08:09:25 <shachaf> monqy: If saying hi after being greeted is irresistible, is it irresistible to respond with hi?
08:09:57 <monqy> im going to kick this habit !!!
08:10:06 <monqy> it's like drugs, and I'm kicking it
08:10:18 <monqy> what else would I do with drugs
08:10:23 <NSQX> But anyway, elliott will read the logs and think about "<NSQX> Our sub-lime wiki has been out of order for the last four days. What are you waiting for before you start editing again?" and further into that conversation.
08:10:48 <olsner> they really added a lot of crap in C++11
08:10:53 <monqy> NSQX: if he doesn't, I'll make him. it is an important concern and he should think aboutit
08:11:02 <monqy> shachaf: salutations
08:11:13 <olsner> somewhat torn between wanting to use new shiny features and wanting to nuke-from-orbit all traces of C++ I know
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08:12:05 <shachaf> That's dangerously close to "hi".
08:13:37 <shachaf> 01:13 < mm_freak> the docs state that hamlet is inspired by haml
08:13:38 <shachaf> Maybe Hamlet was inspired by Shakespeare.
08:13:59 <monqy> is shakespeare here
08:14:09 <monqy> good morning, shakespeare
08:14:16 <monqy> good evening, itidus20
08:14:20 <monqy> good afternoon, shachaf
08:14:33 <monqy> good day, everyone
08:15:06 <itidus20> good job so far in kicking the habit
08:18:03 <shachaf> Google Translate says it's "Monkey".
08:18:12 <shachaf> Google translate = Wrong translate.
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08:20:21 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
08:20:48 <monqy> shachaf: salutations
08:21:04 <itidus20> shachaf: try asking a yes/no question that you know the answer to
08:21:14 <shachaf> itidus20: I know the answers to all of them.
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08:55:50 <ion> http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/ http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Rasmus_Lerdorf http://www.exploit-db.com/exploits/18665/
08:56:38 <Taneb> Is Finnair a Finnish airline?
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08:58:30 <Taneb> I saw a Finnair plane today
08:59:39 <ion> In a smoking rubble?
09:00:28 <itidus20> I actually hate programming, but I love solving problems. I really don't like programming. There are people who actually like programming. I don't understand why they like programming. I do care about memory leaks but I still don't find programming enjoyable.
09:00:48 <Taneb> ...you're in a programming channel
09:01:42 <itidus20> it's from ion's link http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Rasmus_Lerdorf
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09:01:59 <Taneb> I'm still on the first link
09:02:39 <Taneb> "Facebook and Wikipedia... could be written in Brainfuck"
09:03:15 <itidus20> i know uh the quotes take on different meanings than if i said them since the person who said it is a programming celebrity
09:04:11 <kmc> and you're more like a town drunk
09:04:21 <kmc> ion, that is a great blog article
09:05:13 <ion> kmc: I noticed mosh. Seems very useful. And you seem to be one of the authors. :-)
09:05:39 <kmc> we're in #mosh if you want to chat with KeithW, who did most of the design and coding
09:05:47 <kmc> i've mainly done security auditing and misc bugfixes
09:06:28 <Taneb> About the only good think I can think of of PHP is that most web servers seem to have it built in
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09:09:16 <kmc> i mean, it has allowed a lot of casual/amateur programmers to produce things which are useful
09:09:28 <kmc> that is *a* redeeming quality
09:09:39 <kmc> probably not enough to consider PHP a net social good
09:09:53 <kmc> it certainly could have that redeeming quality and still be way the hell better as a language
09:10:09 <Taneb> It's like Internet Explorer
09:17:24 <Patashu> 'could be written in Brainfuck'
09:17:31 <Patashu> if brainfuck had meaningful io mechanisms sure
09:18:45 <Taneb> itidus20, you're the only one who can do this.
09:20:39 <kmc> there's that thing https://github.com/ChickenProp/sysfuck
09:22:05 <itidus20> the first app would be like you input an id number followed by a space into the brainfuck interpreter.. and it would output the corresponding record in html format, or an error message if the record can't be found
09:22:30 <Patashu> yes, syscall should be enough
09:26:51 <Patashu> brainfuck can't even read to/write from files
09:27:18 <Patashu> (or at least, not without a different non-brainfuck program redirecting its input/output?)
09:27:50 <itidus20> im backing away slowly because i have no plans of writing any software in brainfuck
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10:34:13 <kmc> "OS X Terminal.app applies circumflex to part of escape sequence, then crashes."
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11:55:58 * NSQX thinks there is no quality anymore
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13:23:28 <ion> kmc: I take it much attention has been paid to things like never using the same block key more than once and preventing replay attacks?
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13:50:16 <ion> kmc: How about leaking information in the timing of the packets? IIRC someone was able to correlate the timing information in an audio recording of typing to what keys were pressed. I suppose ssh doesn’t do anything about that either.
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14:18:21 <kmc> ion, the block-cipher key is simply pulled from /dev/urandom by mosh-server at session start
14:18:40 <kmc> we're using OCB3, an integrated authenticated-encryption block cipher mode for AES
14:19:02 <kmc> which prevents tampering and replay attacks if used correctly (there is a mathematical proof of this)
14:19:12 <ion> An implementation by someone else i take it?
14:19:36 <kmc> yes, it's the reference implementation by Ted Krovetz
14:19:41 <kmc> https://github.com/keithw/mosh/blob/master/src/crypto/ocb.cc
14:20:01 <kmc> OCB is not too widely used though, so I am a bit worried
14:20:35 <kmc> i do think it's funny that "implemented by someone else" makes you feel better regardless of who that is ;)
14:21:11 <kmc> regarding "used correctly", a primary concern is that one must never use the same (key, nonce) pair more than once
14:21:37 <kmc> the nonce is a 63-bit counter initialized to zero at session start and incremented for each message sent
14:21:48 <kmc> the last bit distinguishes the two directions of communication
14:21:49 <ion> Well, i was thinking in the lines of a popular, reviewed-by-many implementation by someone else. :-)
14:22:18 <kmc> yeah, I don't think ocb.c is that popular or well-reviewed
14:22:51 <kmc> otoh, OCB provides authentication and encryption in one go, whereas if we combined a simple block cipher mode like CTR with a separate HMAC, there are arguably more places to screw up
14:23:05 <kmc> (we can chat in #mosh also)
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14:49:54 <NSQX> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BrainFunge2 and it seems like I was the only one who created a new esoteric programming language today. What's up with the rest of the community recently?
14:51:43 <NSQX> !bf2 ''!dlroW olleH''"("X'>)"
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15:08:48 <NSQX> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BrainFunge2 and it seems like I was the only one who created a new esoteric programming language today. What's up with the rest of the community recently?
15:08:52 <NSQX> !bf2 ''!dlroW olleH''"("X'>)"
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15:11:19 <NSQX> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BrainFunge2 and it seems like I was the only one who created a new esoteric programming language today. What's up with the rest of the community recently?
15:11:23 <NSQX> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BrainFunge2 and it seems like I was the only one who created a new esoteric programming language today. What's up with the rest of the community recently?
15:11:27 <NSQX> !bf2 ''!dlroW olleH''"("X'>)"
15:11:30 <NSQX> !bf2 ''!dlroW olleH''"("X'>)"
15:11:53 <itidus20> although i'm not part of the esolang community and have never done anything eso-langy.. i just want you to know i'm reading your posts :-D
15:12:26 <itidus20> and the brainfunge2 wiki page looks nicely formatted
15:18:14 <itidus20> reading the brainfunge2 page got me thinking though just now
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15:43:03 <NSQX> KingOfKarlsruhe: Don't just join and say nothing. Say something or edit our sub-lime wiki, which has had few edits recently, at http://esolangs.org/
15:44:45 <NSQX> KingOfKarlsruhe: Read the most recent log of #esoteric ( http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-04-10 ) or our sub-lime wiki's recent changes ( http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges ) if you are unsure what to say.
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15:50:09 <NSQX> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Featured_languages has not been updated for at least two weeks now.
15:50:39 <NSQX> The featured language has remained "///" for too long.
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15:52:44 <NSQX> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Featured_languages has not been updated for at least two weeks now.
15:52:47 <NSQX> The featured language has remained "///" for too long.
15:52:56 <NSQX> What are the administrators waiting for?
15:53:10 <ais523> NSQX: we're only changing it once a month or so
15:53:30 <ais523> there isn't enough of a supply of languages to change it more often than that, and it can often take around a month to do interesting things with an esolang
15:54:44 <NSQX> Anyway, does anyone think http://esolangs.org/wiki/BrainFunge2 is good enough to be featured (except for one thing that does not match the criteria: implementation is possible but this language is not implemented)?
15:56:12 <ais523> no, it isn't interesting
15:56:35 <ais523> there are far too many 2D imperative languages
15:56:50 <ais523> (far too many 1D imperative languages too, btw)
16:00:21 <RocketJSquirrel> Well, it's not like being 2D and imperative disqualifies it, it merely doesn't qualify it.
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16:06:16 <elliott__> 00:36:52: <kmc> plenty of people appreciate FP and yet are annoyed by the people who think that incorporating crazy FP concepts is the only criterion for language goodness
16:06:17 <lambdabot> elliott__: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:06:29 <elliott__> Sometimes I get the feeling everything kmc says is a jab at me :P
16:06:39 <kmc> YES IT'S ALL ABOUT YOU
16:06:49 <kmc> i spend all day plotting my next jab at elliott__
16:07:01 <kmc> srsly I did not have anyone in mind when I said that
16:08:33 <kmc> maybe i should switch to a terminal that supports blurry fonts
16:11:27 <RocketJSquirrel> Wut, elliott FUCKING UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE has messages? Or does lambdabot not distinguish?
16:11:45 <elliott__> <lambdabot> ais523 said 1m 22d 23h 13m 26s ago: I bet you haven't used this nick for a while :)
16:11:50 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott__: Your new full name is now Elliott Fucking Underscore-Underscore, by the way.
16:11:55 <elliott__> i'm so popular, all my nicks get messagse
16:12:02 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: I messaged elliott-double-underscore quite a while ago just to see if the message would ever be received
16:13:07 <elliott__> or does the "double" stand for "fucking underscore"
16:18:31 <ais523> hmm, a good esolang can take weeks or months to make
16:18:46 <ais523> e.g. Underload took months, and Feather is probably going to take years
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16:21:50 <elliott__> NSQX: you can use /cycle to part and rejoin quickly
16:21:50 <lambdabot> elliott__: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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16:26:57 <elliott__> kmc: how old is mosh in debian testing?
16:29:16 <kmc> http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/mosh says 1.1
16:29:19 <kmc> here's a changelog: https://github.com/keithw/mosh/blob/master/ChangeLog
16:29:58 <elliott__> thanks; looks like * Fixes bug causing occasional missing/extra wraparound copy-and-paste.
16:29:58 <elliott__> is the only thiing I might be missing out on
16:30:22 <elliott__> are there any advantages to mosh if my connection to the server has such low latency that I can't distinguish it from a local shell?
16:30:32 <elliott__> (I keep accidentally typing commands into ssh rather than a local terminal)
16:30:53 <elliott__> I guess the hieroglyphics thing counts
16:30:56 <elliott__> not too bothered about that though
16:32:32 <kmc> you could have a low latency connection with high packet loss, but it sounds like you don't
16:32:41 <kmc> there is also the roaming / suspend thing
16:32:54 <kmc> and the ^C spew thing
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16:33:01 <kmc> "Unlike SSH, mosh's UDP-based protocol handles packet loss gracefully, and sets the frame rate based on network conditions. Mosh doesn't fill up network buffers, so Control-C always works to halt a runaway process."
16:33:34 <kmc> but yeah, the main advantage is that Mosh works better on a) bad connections, and b) changing between connections
16:33:47 <kmc> or suspending your laptop
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16:34:11 <elliott__> the ^C spew thing annoys me, but I get problems with that locally, too
16:34:19 <elliott__> so I'm not sure it's the same thing(?)
16:34:22 <kmc> "With Mosh, you can put your laptop to sleep and wake it up later, keeping your connection intact. If your Internet connection drops, Mosh will warn you — but the connection resumes when network service comes back."
16:34:32 <elliott__> there were a lot of words on the page ok :(
16:34:48 <kmc> and i'm lazy so i quote them instead of explaining ;P
16:34:56 <elliott__> is there a way to explicitly suspend it and restart mosh later?
16:35:01 <kmc> it's not really the same as screen/tmux detach (you can of course use mosh together with screen/tmux)
16:35:07 <kmc> no, use screen/tmux for that
16:35:32 <kmc> i don't know that one, but ok
16:36:17 <elliott__> it just does detaching rather than tiling
16:36:37 <elliott__> this website triggers that annoying font problem :(
16:36:48 <elliott__> where text overlaps with other text but fixes itself if I change the font size up and down again
16:37:28 <kmc> mosh doesn't support detaching and reattaching sessions at all
16:37:54 <kmc> but it supports a) arbitrarily long periods of total packet loss, and b) client suddenly has a different IP
16:38:22 <kmc> not really
16:38:33 <elliott__> modulo local state, which can be stored on disk (I don't care about reattaching from another machine
16:38:48 <elliott__> heh, the AUR package is maintained by the trivium author
16:39:01 <kmc> if you have a mosh-client / mosh-server pair, and the client dies uncleanly (say because the machine dies)
16:39:06 <kmc> there is no way to reattach to that mosh-server
16:39:16 <kmc> not inconceivable we'd add one
16:39:26 <elliott__> oh, I don't care about unclean client dying either
16:39:42 <elliott__> my use for re-attaching is just starting a long-running process on the server and being able to check on it without having to keep a terminal open
16:40:09 <kmc> i think mosh by itself won't do that for you
16:40:26 <ais523> <freeballer> Buy a Kinect and create the world's first interpretive dance programming language.
16:40:47 <elliott__> kmc: yeah, but it could if it could store its local state and reload it later (which of course might be non-trivial)
16:40:48 <kmc> if you close the local terminal running mosh-client, it will shut down the client and therefore the whole session
16:42:24 <elliott__> Targets (2): boost-libs-1.49.0-1.1 boost-1.49.0-1.1
16:42:49 <kmc> we're only using a small amount of boost
16:42:54 <kmc> in fact i have a patch which removes it entirely
16:43:06 <elliott__> kmc: my understanding is that you're recommended to distrbute the parts of boost you use with your source
16:43:16 <elliott__> which avoids that kind of dependency :P
16:44:30 <kmc> i don't wanna
16:45:23 <elliott__> it clears the screen as soon as i start a connection :(
16:45:56 <kmc> you do not like this behavior?
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16:46:16 <elliott__> nope, though probably only because I'm used to ssh not doing that
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16:46:51 <elliott__> a good rule of thumb is to ignore all complaints i make for the first two days
16:47:37 <elliott__> is the fact that less seems to scroll through large amounts of text faster placebo?
16:49:19 <ais523> elliott__: less scrolls through large amounts of text faster per line than small amounts of text
16:49:27 <ais523> because it doesn't have to redraw the screen every line
16:50:13 <elliott__> ais523: I was using ^D/^U, so it's not that
16:50:20 <elliott__> but it definitely feels like it's lagging less than ssh doing that
16:50:48 <elliott__> "Watchlist editing has been improved so that broken or invalid titles now." I... see
16:51:44 <ais523> "We have taken steps to avoid a repeat of the situation where half the"
16:57:44 <elliott__> kmc: is it possible to use mosh locally without authentication?
16:57:53 <elliott__> the ^C spam stuff and garbage-display prevention sound useful
17:01:42 <ais523> is the idea when you're trying to interrupt a particular process in the instant it happens to be grabbing the terminal?
17:01:56 <ais523> probably might be better to have a key to SIGINT both the foreground process and its parent
17:06:52 <elliott__> ais523: "Mosh doesn't fill up network buffers, so Control-C always works to halt a runaway process."
17:06:56 <elliott__> I don't really know what that means though
17:07:18 <elliott__> is [<i>etc.</i>] or <i>[etc.]</i> correct?
17:08:10 <kmc> elliott__, not without authentication, but you can set up a mosh session by transports other than ssh
17:08:14 <kmc> including the "copy and paste" transport
17:08:33 <kmc> http://mosh.mit.edu/#faq "Q: How do I run the mosh client and server separately?"
17:08:42 <ais523> elliott__: I prefer the former, but am not sure about correctness
17:09:10 <kmc> <elliott__> is the fact that less seems to scroll through large amounts of text faster placebo?
17:09:27 <kmc> ssh sends every byte in order; mosh just tries to update the client to the server's latest state
17:09:43 <elliott__> probably the screens aren't very alike, though
17:09:56 <kmc> if a packet is dropped in transit, and the server-side state has changed since the packet was sent, mosh won't retransmit that stale state
17:10:13 <kmc> it's really closer to a video streaming protocol than a reliable octet stream protocol :)
17:10:39 <elliott__> that copy-and-paste transport could work; seems like you could easily write a script to do it and use that as your shell
17:10:56 <kmc> you want this for the ^C thing or?
17:11:13 <kmc> i think that's a network-related feature only
17:11:24 <elliott__> well, I actually run into the messed-up-terminal thing every year or so :p
17:11:49 <elliott__> just seems like it could be worthwhile if it's strictly better at being a terminal than plain urxvt is
17:12:00 <elliott__> oh, I understand what the buffer thing means now
17:12:07 <elliott__> keys get sent immediately, rather than waiting for a network buffer
17:12:16 <elliott__> in fact, I skipped over "network" in "network buffer" the first two times i read it
17:12:24 <elliott__> clearly it should be in 72pt red impact and blink
17:13:32 <kmc> i'm not sure what you said is correct either
17:13:47 <kmc> the idea is just that mosh has an estimate of the network throughput, and will only send at that rate
17:13:58 <kmc> so it won't fill buffers along the way
17:14:07 <kmc> (it's common for e.g. home cable modems to have huge buffers)
17:14:34 <kmc> this way when you send a ^C, you don't have to wait for all the garbage ahead of it
17:14:52 <kmc> estimating throughput is something TCP is supposed to do as well
17:15:06 <kmc> but it's not very good and also people keep fucking with it in various ways
17:15:18 <kmc> KeithW's actual PhD research is on a new approach to TCP flow control
17:15:37 <kmc> where the endpoints have an explicit network model, and an explicit utility function, and act as bayesian optimizers wrt these
17:16:13 * elliott__ wonders if "<kmc> (it's common for e.g. home cable modems to have huge buffers)" is what bufferbloat is
17:17:20 <kmc> yeah that's what bufferbloat is
17:17:43 <kmc> you can sometimes improve your connection dramatically by throttling the input to the cable modem to be just below its speed
17:18:53 <kmc> a common scenario is trying to use ssh while downloading a file
17:19:02 <elliott__> does this apply to non-cable modems?
17:19:06 <kmc> the file fills up the buffer, ssh latency goes way up, TCP flow control on SSH starts to make bad decisions
17:19:28 <kmc> if there's enough bandwidth for the file xfer, then there's enough for file xfer plus a tiny bit for ssh
17:19:32 <kmc> it's just not being allocated effectively
17:19:53 <kmc> i don't know about buffer sizes on other devices
17:19:54 <kmc> i suspect so
17:20:12 <kmc> adding buffering/caching haphazardly is pretty much the #1 problem solving strategy in CS
17:22:59 <kmc> ADSL or... LSD-A?
17:24:43 <olsner> is that the french acronym?
17:24:49 <elliott__> It's our biggest national secret that all our internet lines are secretly being used to traffic... DRUG.
17:27:03 <elliott__> if it was, then the real acronym would be ASDL instead, if UTC is anything to go by
17:27:26 <elliott__> rly glad we didn't end up calling it CUT or TUC though
17:27:33 <olsner> wasn't UTC a compromise in that it was wrong in both languages?
17:34:56 <elliott__> "And it looks like Haskell sets its sockets to non-blocking mode by default. So if you try to read from one when there is no data, or try to write to one when its buffer is full, you will fail with EAGAIN.
17:34:56 <elliott__> Figure out how to change the sockets to blocking mode, and I bet you will solve your problem."
17:35:05 <elliott__> this sounds like an astonishingly bad idea wrt the IO manager
17:41:15 <olsner> but, shouldn't the IO manager be simulating blocking I/O for you?
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17:41:37 <olsner> or is someone sharing sockets between haskell and C code?
17:51:45 <elliott__> RocketJSquirrel: What's that file-usage thing you used on codu
18:08:33 <kmc> apparently on solaris, environment variables of running processes are world readable
18:08:38 <kmc> damn it, sun
18:09:35 <elliott__> that'll only be env variables set at run-time, though [standard comment about how amazed i am that environment variables DON'T REALLY EXIST]
18:10:01 <kmc> this is a problem for Mosh because we put the AES session key in an environment variable for mosh-client
18:10:05 <kmc> but we don't claim to support Solaris
18:10:16 <kmc> but I think a warning in README and the website is called for, anyway
18:10:28 <kmc> on Linux and OS X, env vars are only readable by the same user
18:10:40 <elliott__> kmc: what's wrong with just taking it as an option
18:10:41 <kmc> and I think FreeBSD as well but haven't checked
18:10:51 <kmc> command lines generally *are* world-readable
18:11:26 <kmc> yeah maybe
18:11:37 <elliott__> that would be more convenient for copy-pasting too since you can just select the whole line :p
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18:26:06 <elliott__> ais523: help me think of a name that translates to unix account name "root" with as many different formats as possible
18:26:22 <ais523> elliott__: what exactly do you mean by that?
18:26:23 <elliott__> Root O* O* T* seems like a decent start
18:26:52 <elliott__> ais523: a name that will cause as many organisations as possible to want to assign me the Unix username "root" per policy
18:27:21 <elliott__> hmm, Root O* O* T* breaks <first name><last initial> and <first initial><last name> and <last name><first initial>
18:27:24 <ais523> although you'd be rroot under several patterns then
18:27:30 <ais523> it also breaks <last name>
18:27:31 <elliott__> ais523: nope, that's rroot or rootr
18:27:38 <ais523> and <initials><random number>
18:27:45 <elliott__> for Root O* O* T*, I was going for whatever produced "ais"
18:27:54 <elliott__> as well as "first name", which I guess is uncommon in large organisations
18:28:18 <elliott__> I bet they only use one middle name, anyway
18:28:21 <ais523> the university of birmingham naming scheme that produced ais523 would make that rot123 or whatever, it only takes one middle name
18:28:31 <olsner> where I work, root root would get either rroot or rootr
18:28:55 <ais523> also, requires at least one middle name, they use X as a placeholder if there isn't one
18:29:14 <elliott__> ais523: if only I was the thirteenth rot
18:29:17 <ais523> I'm not sure which order the initials come in for family-name-first name patterns
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18:29:29 <exh> -NickServ- This nickname is registered. Please choose a different nickname, or identify via /msg NickServ identify <password>.
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18:29:37 <ais523> you forgot the digits!
18:29:48 <elliott__> ais523: do they use digits if you're the only one?
18:29:52 <elliott__> I doubt there's another exh at birmingham
18:30:00 <ais523> and there almost certainly is
18:30:17 <ais523> there are over a million people who have been named
18:30:34 <ais523> almost certainly, at least one had forename starting e, surname starting h, no middle name
18:31:01 <elliott__> hmm, how old is your account system?
18:31:11 <elliott__> do you really have over a million Unix accounts?
18:31:38 <ais523> they're mostly Active Directory
18:32:00 <ais523> and no, they're deleted after 4 years, so it's over a million that have existed at any point in time
18:32:06 <ais523> not over a million simultaneously
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18:32:17 <elliott__> do they reserve previously-used names?
18:32:44 <elliott__> (and is that after four years of no use, or four years full stop?)
18:32:46 <ais523> I don't know; I know they have to be reserved for at least two years, and it'd make sense to reserve them longer
18:32:55 <monqy> 11:18:09 < elliott__> hi monqy
18:32:57 <monqy> did you read the logs
18:32:58 <ais523> imagine if someone else got ais523@bham.ac.uk
18:33:05 <monqy> specifically the parts with nsqx
18:33:08 <ais523> they'd get so many irrelevant messages…
18:33:10 <monqy> I promised him I'd make you read that!
18:33:32 <ais523> and it's after four years altogether, except that if you're still using it for university-related purposes, it's deleted a year after you stop instead
18:33:43 <ais523> I've had ais523@bham.ac.uk for around 7 years by now
18:33:48 <elliott__> monqy: yes, NSQX helpfully linked me to them
18:34:08 <elliott__> ais523: they shouldn't delete accounts :(
18:34:10 <ais523> although it's actually a redirect nowadays (I won't mention what it's a redirect to, as the spambots haven't found it yet), and I forge it as the from address when I send
18:35:12 <elliott__> Would a Java programmer gain much from learning about monads? (self.haskell)
18:35:28 <elliott__> why are you posting this to /r/haskell!!!
18:35:32 <ais523> they'd gain a bit, but not much
18:36:03 <ais523> and it's because Haskellers have been forced into the position of Internet Monad Consultants
18:36:58 <elliott__> ais523: at least we can help you turn your international network of international networks into just an international network
18:37:10 <elliott__> and turn your single node into an international network
18:37:33 <elliott__> and help you transform an international network for one purpose into an international network for another, if you can tell us how to turn a node for one purpose into a node for another purpose
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18:39:51 <zzo38> You are now the international network monad?
18:40:57 <ais523> now we need a Consultant monad
18:41:13 <ais523> hmm, given that consulting things is almost a sensible thing for a monad to do, it could almost be useful
18:43:51 <monqy> wow nsqx really spammed up the logs there
18:44:28 <ais523> oh dear, monqy is being unusually lucid, it must be a very serious situation
18:44:45 <elliott__> monqy is always lucid, people just don't usually realise it
18:44:59 <elliott__> ok that was before he got corrupted by the hi brigade :(
18:46:21 <elliott__> "i agree that there is (snicker) a...."cabal" of mods here who seem to want to whitewash haskell's shortcomings"
18:46:43 <Sgeo> Since when did nsqx become official channel greater?
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18:47:24 <elliott__> "Don't just join and say nothing." some greeting
18:47:43 <Sgeo> Meh, I'm just bothered by greeting someone without even making sure they know it's the right kind of esoteric
18:47:55 <Sgeo> erm, which kind of esoteric
18:48:19 <elliott__> dude KingOfKarlsruhe idles here constantly
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18:48:55 * Sgeo crawls into a hole
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18:50:58 <zzo38> Is (Cofree Maybe) like non-empty list?
18:53:09 <elliott__> KingOfKarlsruhe: You don't have to say anything.
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19:00:52 <monqy> top of the morning
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19:01:26 <nortti> ?! There will be no more relases of Linux 2.4
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19:07:52 <elliott__> nortti: I have no idea why this shocks you.
19:08:15 <elliott__> 2.6 came out in 2003. 3 came out in 2011.
19:08:33 <nortti> It has been updated for over 11 years
19:08:41 <elliott__> Yeah, but it's also two major versions old and has been out-of-date for 9 years :P
19:08:57 <elliott__> I admit, it would be funny if they maintained 2.4 forever.
19:09:40 <Ngevd> I don't know which version of Linux kernel I'm using atm
19:11:09 <nortti> well maybe soneone starts supporting linux 2.4 same way as libc4
19:11:41 <elliott__> nortti: That guy is the only guy crazy and/or stupidly stubborn enough to do that, and he's on 2.0.28 :P
19:12:11 <nortti> really? That's just insane
19:13:08 <Ngevd> ...my screen just beeped
19:13:19 <elliott__> nortti: Well, his distro was last updated in 2002... and was intended to be ~retro~ even then.
19:16:34 <zzo38> In case we have something, like LogicT, but instead there is also a comonad included (forall r. (a -> w (m r) -> m r) -> w (m r) -> m r) It is still a codensity monad too
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19:49:19 <RocketJSquirrel> `addquote <Ngevd> I don't know which version of Linux kernel I'm using atm <Ngevd> Hang on <Ngevd> I'm on Windows
19:50:30 <HackEgo> 826) <Ngevd> I don't know which version of Linux kernel I'm using atm <Ngevd> Hang on <Ngevd> I'm on Windows
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19:55:07 <oerjan> <olsner> kmc: far far = 50 million light years
19:55:23 <elliott__> whats sqrt(50 million light years)
19:55:39 <oerjan> i _was_ speaking about M87 or whatever it was.
19:55:58 <olsner> I thought you were talking about jedis
19:56:08 <oerjan> i didn't bring up those
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19:56:42 <zzo38> What will be the square root of a unit of distance?
19:56:56 <oerjan> itidus20 asked if M87 was the galaxy of the jedis.
19:58:31 <olsner> zzo38: I guess it will be something with the unit distance^½, something that you can square to get a distance
19:58:53 <zzo38> olsner: I know that... it isn't what I meant by the question
19:59:03 <olsner> elliott__: I don't know!
19:59:32 <oerjan> elliott__: the unit for dimension 1/2 hausdorff measure, at least
20:00:20 <elliott__> http://i.imgur.com/XDDoQ.jpg this is the best notice i have ever seen
20:02:32 <shachaf> I have the feeling something should be done about people who check in lines with trailing whitespace.
20:02:53 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes; what should be done is, notify them.
20:03:02 <elliott__> shachaf: "git diff" with colouring makes them all horrible and red.
20:03:36 <shachaf> zzo38: I was thinking along the lines of something lingering with boiling oil in it.
20:06:04 <oklopol> you are so beautiful as a collective irc entity
20:08:03 <olsner> elliott__: they might have forgotten to turn on colored diffs, if that isn't the default
20:08:09 <elliott__> shachaf: Did you know that there is (snicker) a...."cabal" of mods here who seem to want to whitewash haskell's shortcomings?
20:10:33 -!- Ngevd has joined.
20:11:34 <oerjan> are you saying he looks buggy?
20:12:09 <Ngevd> This is a poor connection rather than a bug
20:12:41 -!- Ngevd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:12:57 <shachaf> THAT PUN WAS WORSE THAN A LIME. SEE WHAT I DID THERE?
20:12:58 <oerjan> thank you. although you'd think gregor would be more in danger
20:13:05 <shachaf> elliott__: Today I need to do things again.
20:15:19 <elliott__> shachaf: Did you know that there is (snicker) a...."cabal" of mods here who seem to want to whitewash haskell's shortcomings?
20:16:14 <elliott__> I'm not sure if shachaf knows that there is (snicker) a...."cabal" of mods here who seem to want to whitewash haskell's shortcomings?
20:16:32 <oerjan> monqy: darn you're good
20:17:05 <oerjan> oh also hi elliott__ and olsner
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20:19:32 <elliott__> Is oerjan calling me an iodicy? :(
20:19:48 <elliott__> Also, why is oerjan hiing everybody?
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20:30:53 <oerjan> `addquote <Taneb> I saw a Finnair plane today <ion> In a smoking rubble? <Taneb> Close. <Taneb> Heathrow Airport
20:31:10 -!- Case1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:31:11 <HackEgo> 827) <Taneb> I saw a Finnair plane today <ion> In a smoking rubble? <Taneb> Close. <Taneb> Heathrow Airport
20:40:24 <shachaf> elliott__: I don't know that.
20:46:19 -!- oerjan has changed nick to oerjan__.
20:46:29 -!- oerjan__ has changed nick to oerjan.
20:47:23 <oerjan> 16:18:31: <ais523> hmm, a good esolang can take weeks or months to make
20:47:24 <oerjan> 16:18:46: <ais523> e.g. Underload took months, and Feather is probably going to take years
20:47:32 <oerjan> otoh /// probably didn't take too long :P
20:48:17 <oerjan> 16:12:54: <elliott__> ais523: you misspelled my name!
20:48:17 <oerjan> 16:13:07: <elliott__> or does the "double" stand for "fucking underscore"
20:48:29 <oerjan> no no, ais523 is simply unable to say "fucking"
20:59:16 <oerjan> WE THOUGHT WE'D LOST YOU
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21:29:18 <oklopol> toi took 5 minutes and it's the best.
21:31:39 <Sgeo> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/10/texts-from-hillary-clinton_n_1415551.html
21:31:59 <Sgeo> Now, if only we could hear from her regarding whether the accusations she insulted Agora Nomic are true or not.
21:35:59 <Sgeo> Hey, it's not like I'm taking medical advice from there
21:36:37 <elliott__> ok i admit the fact that hillary clinton has made a submission to a joke tumblr is pretty hilarious
21:36:42 <monqy> how to live long and a good life, by the huffing ton post dot com
21:37:20 <monqy> shachaf: drat I can't think of a good greeting uhh
21:37:31 <shachaf> monqy: I know a good greeting.
21:38:15 <monqy> for maximal greeting efficiency, I presume
21:38:29 <monqy> I sure wish I knew your wonder greeting!
21:39:42 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott__ is Tue Apr 10 22:40:10
21:40:29 <monqy> shachaf: happy april 10
21:41:52 <elliott__> hahahaha i think tr0lltherapy downvoted me
21:42:17 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined.
21:42:41 <monqy> is tr0lltherapy a tr0ll
21:43:51 -!- derdon has joined.
21:44:06 <elliott__> oerjan: kick monqy, this is an intervention, it's for his own good
21:44:06 <shachaf> Come on, "your royal hiness" merits a "hi".
21:44:39 <shachaf> monqy: Just say a sentence that contains "hi".
21:44:48 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
21:44:55 <elliott__> monqy: quick put "hi" into another word
21:45:06 <elliott__> like "boy shachaf must be high if he thinks i'm going to say that word"
21:45:11 <monqy> I can't think of any good words!
21:45:36 <monqy> shachaf: something
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21:46:08 <shachaf> monqy: Now say "somet hi ng"
21:46:19 <monqy> I can't do this (that)
21:46:49 <elliott__> shachaf: you're at BAD influence!!!
21:47:03 <shachaf> monqy: Good, now you're injecting "hi"s ungrammatically.
21:47:49 <oerjan> monqy: try "shalom", that should freak shachaf out
21:48:00 <elliott__> oerjan: HOW CAN YOU JUST STAND BY AND WATCH THIS HAPPEN
21:48:21 <monqy> shachaf: are you freaked out
21:48:41 <shachaf> Maybe you'll never be good enough... Unless you say hi.
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21:49:17 <shachaf> What have you become, monqy?
21:49:35 <shachaf> monqy: Can you manage a "hej"?
21:50:31 <shachaf> You've withstood The Ultimate Hi Challenge.
21:51:24 <shachaf> I like to relax by writing poems.
21:51:38 <shachaf> Can you write a poem, monqy?
21:51:58 <monqy> poetry is for people who say "hi"
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21:54:03 <shachaf> monqy: Here's a poem: http://poemsbyshelsilverstein.blogspot.com/2009/01/poem-by-shel-silverstein-pg-127.html
21:54:25 <shachaf> elliott__: Do they have Shel Silverstein in Hexham?
21:54:32 <monqy> what a friendly monster
21:55:43 <shachaf> Show the channel how friendly you are.
21:56:04 <monqy> should I buy them flowers
21:56:14 <shachaf> monqy: Do what the hi monster would do.
21:56:24 <elliott__> the hi monster is known for never saying hi
21:56:27 <monqy> should I go through the mist
21:56:33 <monqy> should I have a tail
21:56:39 <oerjan> <monqy> no hi <-- oh dear. oh dear oh dear oh dear.
21:56:48 -!- augur has joined.
21:56:51 <shachaf> The hi monster is known for saying hi to *everyone*.
21:56:55 <elliott__> it's good to talk about your past addictions
21:57:18 <shachaf> The first thing you say in hi anonymous is...
21:57:24 <shachaf> "hi, my name is monqy. hi.
21:57:37 <elliott__> "it's the middle of the night why haven't i slept"
21:58:12 <shachaf> Or you can say one word which means all of those and more.
21:59:22 <Sgeo> But hello is so many letters
21:59:39 <oerjan> monqy: you can use "yo"
21:59:45 <shachaf> "hello" is on the road to "hell"
21:59:50 <oerjan> that doesn't have too many letters
21:59:53 <shachaf> "hi" is on the road to "hi heaven"
22:00:06 <monqy> I dunno about this
22:00:09 <monqy> it doesn't have the right feeling
22:00:21 <monqy> it just doesn't feel right
22:00:26 <elliott__> once an addict always an addict (unless you try really hard and don't give in to peer pressure)
22:00:30 <Sgeo> I still don't have a Yo-God God Detector
22:00:32 <elliott__> shhh monqy you don't need that kind of bad influence in your life
22:00:36 <shachaf> Don't give in to beer pressure!
22:00:47 <shachaf> monqy: elliott__ suggets in /msg that I should stop tempting you.
22:01:09 <elliott__> I just told him what he already knew.
22:01:55 <elliott__> "My question is answered and problem solved by someone that does not even know Haskell, with surgical precision! Anyway the link above now contains a working splice implementation that will find its way to Hackage after polish up."
22:02:04 <Sgeo> elliott__, linky?
22:02:07 <elliott__> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/s1kcd/need_help_implementing_zero_kerneluser_space_copy/
22:03:04 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:03:25 <shachaf> monqy: After saying "yo" you have to say "dawg".
22:03:56 <monqy> I don't think I can do that
22:04:05 <monqy> honestly if that's what it comes to
22:04:08 <monqy> I'd rather just say hi
22:04:22 <Sgeo> That seems more like a Linux question than a Haskell question
22:04:33 <shachaf> "yo dawg" is many times more potent than "hi".
22:05:11 <Sgeo> yo dawg, I herd you like to greet so I put a greet in your greet so you can greet while you greet. hhii
22:05:33 -!- augur has joined.
22:05:45 <monqy> I would have said "sgeo: hi" but I'm over that
22:06:06 <shachaf> monqy: Say "sgeo: yo dawg"
22:06:23 <monqy> someone kick shachaf
22:06:46 <Sgeo> (incf shachef)
22:07:03 <shachaf> elliott__: The right answer is to use the I/O manager for non-blocking sockets?
22:07:10 <elliott__> The right answer is what bos said.
22:07:13 <shachaf> Those are precious karma points.
22:07:24 <elliott__> Esp. since EAGAIN can happen on blocking sockets too.
22:07:25 <Sgeo> (incf shachef 5)
22:07:27 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 11.0/20120312181643]).
22:07:37 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: karma karma+ karma- karma-all
22:08:13 <Sgeo> Hey, monqy said it!
22:08:53 <shachaf> "what -- what am I -- hi -- hi monqy!"
22:11:12 <Sgeo> @karma elliott
22:12:01 <Sgeo> If monqy decremented me once and I now have karma of 0, I must have had karma of one at some point
22:12:39 <shachaf> Oh, I'm thinking of preflex.
22:12:52 <shachaf> elliott__: Why did you decrement my karma. :-(
22:14:29 <shachaf> I am in the top 10 karmahavers in lambdabot's database.
22:14:40 <Sgeo> > text "hi monqy"
22:15:56 <elliott__> Deewiant: lambdabot has an override
22:16:40 <monqy> rest peacefully, notepad's karma
22:16:42 <elliott__> that's a good amount of karma for notepad
22:16:56 <shachaf> It has some other cases too.
22:17:38 <shachaf> The empty string has an exemption.
22:18:08 <shachaf> elliott__: I still need to do the thing.
22:19:38 -!- elliott__ has changed nick to elliott.
22:19:42 -!- elliott has changed nick to elliott__.
22:19:59 <elliott__> that's kind of ruined with the nick change
22:20:37 <Sgeo> @karma++ @karma++
22:20:39 <shachaf> elliott__: Why did you change your nick? :-(
22:20:59 <shachaf> elliott__: I mean the __s.
22:21:01 <lambdabot> You can't change your own karma, silly.
22:21:01 <Sgeo> @karma+ @karma
22:21:08 <lambdabot> You can't change your own karma, silly.
22:21:22 <shachaf> Looks like "@karma+ shachaf" doesn't change anything.
22:21:55 <Sgeo> @karma- shachef
22:21:58 <elliott__> shachaf: So that my nick wouldn't be elliott.
22:22:16 -!- Patashu has joined.
22:22:38 <shachaf> I mean, shachef++ -- dances
22:22:46 <shachaf> shachef++ -- looks up the weather
22:22:46 <Sgeo> And today I learned that I don't know how to spell shachaf
22:23:01 <Sgeo> I used to play with BONZI Buddy
22:23:11 <Sgeo> ...I am now feeling nostalgic for spyware. Fun.
22:23:21 <shachaf> elliott__: Where's that portrait?
22:23:35 <elliott__> i mean that's a pretty big coincidence
22:23:45 <elliott__> http://ompldr.org/vZDhvag/shachef.png
22:24:02 <shachaf> I didn't say he hadn't seen it.
22:24:12 <elliott__> but <Sgeo> And today I learned that I don't know how to spell shachaf
22:24:28 <Sgeo> I've seen it before
22:24:54 <shachaf> shachef++ -- spins a globe
22:24:57 <Sgeo> I remember listening to BONZI Buddy's facts while eating triscuits
22:24:59 <shachaf> shachef++ -- eats a banana
22:25:35 <shachaf> elliott__ wants you to get a taste of POWER
22:26:02 <shachaf> People who think they can't make mistakes.
22:26:09 <shachaf> And so they write code badly.
22:27:18 <kmc> just sympathizing
22:27:24 <kmc> also i wonder if i am one of these people
22:27:31 <kmc> but that's probably generic insecurity
22:27:54 <Mathnerd314> they should be writing *compilers* for code
22:28:06 <monqy> I want to say hi again
22:29:20 <shachaf> kmc: You seem to have the reasonable mindset of "make mistakes impossible to make". At least as far as security etc. are concerned.
22:29:43 <shachaf> kmc: Do you think being good at writing secure code and being good at finding security bugs are particularly correlated with each other?
22:31:35 <elliott__> i think the former is probably impossible without the latter, but that the latter doesn't necessarily imply the former
22:31:44 <elliott__> but i'm pulling this out of my anus, so to speak
22:32:25 <kmc> i agree with all of what elliott__ just said :)
22:32:47 <elliott__> like if you look at a lot of exploits they're kind of horrible code
22:33:00 <kmc> exploits are the best code :D
22:33:16 <elliott__> which i think fits stereotypically into the "unprofessional but determined self-taught tinkering" kind of view of someone who finds security exploits
22:33:24 <kmc> shachaf, people ask me "are you worried about the security of Mosh" and I'm like "... I'll never not be worried about the security of Mosh"
22:33:41 <elliott__> and which wouldn't fill me with confidence wrt writing secure code
22:34:10 <shachaf> "unprofessional but determined self-taught tinkering" isn't necessarily a bad way to learn to write secure code.
22:34:20 <shachaf> Well, I guess it depends on what you mean by "unprofessional".
22:34:36 <elliott__> i mean "unprofessional" in the (unfair) sense of "sloppy"
22:34:52 <shachaf> So you're saying that if someone is sloppy, their programs will have bugs?
22:35:04 <elliott__> i think if someone's code is sloppy it's more likely to have bugs
22:35:43 <elliott__> i get the feeling you're making some kind of point here
22:35:47 <shachaf> I doubt you'll find anyone who'll really disagree.
22:37:31 <elliott__> Mathnerd314: why did you post those terrible slides :'(
22:37:59 <Mathnerd314> elliott__: because otherwise you wouldn't know about them
22:38:41 <elliott__> http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Application-Development/Why-Programmers-Should-Use-the-Haskell-Language-Now-669827/
22:39:18 <shachaf> Sloppy code is probably the most annoying thing.
22:39:34 <elliott__> i like sloppy code! it's just crap is all
22:39:51 <shachaf> I usually get annoyed at it and then tell myself that I'm probably getting too annoyed.
22:41:06 <shachaf> There are different adjectives one can use to describe _why's code (and _why).
22:41:54 <elliott__> i think you'll find he'd have readily adopted "sloppy" (possibly he did)
22:42:09 <shachaf> elliott__: Wow, those slides. :-(
22:42:28 <monqy> should I look at these slides
22:43:23 <elliott__> shachaf: apparently they're dumbed-down summaries of slides from someone else's talk
22:43:42 <shachaf> elliott__: I like the DSL slide.
22:44:11 <shachaf> "Homomorphic encryption is a form of encryption where a specific algebraic operation performed on the plaintext is equivalent to another (possibly different) algebraic operation performed on the ciphertext. Adams-Moran said Haskell is good for implementing homomorphic encryption, particularly in protecting data in the cloud—where users want to store only encrypted data in the cloud. Searches and queries work over encrypted data, yielding
22:44:37 <elliott__> Anyway, apparently the talk goes into much more detail about their actual homomorphic encryption work.
22:45:07 <Sgeo> Great. "Abstraction". Without any details into what that's like from a Haskell perspective
22:45:15 <Sgeo> Are ANY of these slides about Haskell specifically?
22:45:20 <shachaf> Are you suggesting these slides aren't good?
22:45:37 <monqy> wow these slides are the worst
22:45:52 <shachaf> elliott__: I didn't realize homomorphic encryption actually worked.
22:46:05 <shachaf> For, you know, actual things.
22:46:40 <elliott__> shachaf: "For example, we don't claim to have solved fully homomorphic encryption, but I can see how you may have gotten that impression from the eweek slides. We're part of a team exploring ways of bringing FHE closer to practicality. The example in the talk is about a different kind of shared computation (and I did a poor job of explaining it)."
22:48:55 <elliott__> shachaf: I love the part where everything starts with "Adams-Moran said", though.
22:49:10 <shachaf> I love the part where the slides are bad.
22:50:46 <elliott__> monqy: Can you help me figure out how Hugs works?
22:51:10 <monqy> I've neither used nor seen hugs, ever
22:52:16 <elliott__> cabal-dev install --hugs --with-cpphs="$(which cpphs-hugs)" --hugs-options="-98 +o" --hugs-option=-F'cpp -P -traditional' -fslow
23:03:39 <oerjan> > var $ cycle "Haskell is "
23:03:40 <lambdabot> Haskell is Haskell is Haskell is Haskell is Haskell is Haskell is Haskell i...
23:03:52 <elliott__> Wow, this Wikipedia user deflects the need to actually cite their statements by using edit summaries like "THIS IS ALL TRUE" and "VERIFIABLE".
23:03:53 <fungot> shachaf: honey buns! it's darn near as i can figure us out? that way, if i got any emails?!
23:10:55 <Sgeo> elliott__, linky?
23:13:27 <elliott__> Sgeo: That would be, like, unfair!
23:13:37 <elliott__> ...Okay. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Pdiddyjr
23:13:55 <monqy> (I have good reason to edit this)
23:13:59 <monqy> (Once again, I am editing this with good reason)
23:18:49 <Sgeo> Anyone here used channel.me ?
23:18:57 <Sgeo> Although I don't know why I'm asking here
23:19:16 <elliott__> why are you asking (out of curiosity)
23:19:24 <elliott__> (once again i am asking this with good reason)
23:19:42 <Sgeo> I'm curious about opinions
23:20:53 <elliott__> Sgeo: what i meant was "are you considering using it & if so why"
23:21:32 <Sgeo> I've been playing around with it and because it's fun
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23:24:52 -!- oerjan has set topic: The XY Problem Channel | Do you like rotating mazes? Do you like the other idea? | I do not like rotating mazes. I do not like them Mr. Z. I do not like them in a tree. I do not like them in the fog, I do not like them on a log. I do not like rot' maze, you see, I prefer my lab'rinth's normalcy. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
23:26:25 <monqy> I looked it up and
23:26:32 <monqy> playing around with it? with whom?
23:26:38 <monqy> don't you need other people to channel.me
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23:27:36 <monqy> sorry I'm just a bit surprised is all
23:28:12 <monqy> also I notice sub-lime is out of the chanserv welcome message :(
23:28:17 <monqy> is this because of nsqx
23:28:32 <oerjan> SO THEY CLAIM, THE BASTARDS
23:28:51 <Sgeo> monqy, there is a person...
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23:58:08 <elliott__> shachaf: Did you know "vi /proc/self/maps" works?
00:08:10 <Sgeo> :( there's no Shockwave player for Linux :(
00:10:17 <calamari> what is /proc/self/maps telling me?
00:10:44 <shachaf> elliott__: Why shouldn't it?
00:11:29 <calamari> aha... "/proc/PID/maps, the memory map showing which addresses currently visible to that process are mapped to which regions in RAM or to files."
00:13:19 <Sgeo> elliott__, I want to play iSketch
00:14:23 <elliott__> shachaf: Because vim is written in C. C isn't homoiconic!
00:15:50 <zzo38> What does homoiconic mean?
00:17:07 <elliott__> When an icon and an icon love each other very much... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homoiconicity
00:19:25 <Sgeo> Let's see if I can get Shockwave on WINE
00:21:32 <monqy> I occasionally see it
00:22:03 <elliott__> monqy: are you sure that's shockwave, not flas
00:22:37 <monqy> maybe it's silverlight?
00:23:55 <Sgeo> Why does WINE cause my mouse to stop clicking?
00:27:07 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:27:09 <elliott__> "He maintains that his poetry portrays visually the drift and swirl of the things themselves and the interconnected chiaroscuro of shadowy essence and shimmering everydayness.[10]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_W._Robertson
00:30:08 <Sgeo> According to XScreenSaver, something already grabbed the pointer
00:30:19 <Sgeo> How do I find it and kill it?
00:30:55 * elliott__ doesn't know, but bets there's no way to
00:31:03 <monqy> have you tried restarting your computer
00:31:29 <Sgeo> But I don't want to
00:33:00 <elliott__> http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/pageviews/2012/04/springfield-oregon-matt-groening-announces-location-of-%E2%80%9Cthe-simpsons%E2%80%9D
00:33:00 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:34:02 <elliott__> does that mean they're going to stop making the simpsons (please say yes)
00:34:23 <monqy> Here’s to another 25 years in Springfield, Oregon.
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00:35:31 <monqy> is your problem fixed
00:37:50 <shachaf> elliott__: It's the POWER OF UNIX.
00:39:37 <Sgeo> monqy, yes, but not as comfortably as if I didn't have to turn it off and on again.
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01:22:41 <shachaf> elliott__: But it uses W->(a,W), therefore it's by definition bad!
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02:33:18 <RocketJSquirrel> "If the time difference from home and the lab are different by like 10 seconds, does that mean my program for some reason runs differently at home?"
02:35:06 <RocketJSquirrel> I can only deal with so much stupidity in my day to day life.
02:35:14 <RocketJSquirrel> Then I have to stop. And just admire it. Like an art form.
02:39:20 <monqy> I almost didn't notice
02:39:25 <monqy> thanks for the warning
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02:58:34 <kmc> i don't understand the context of that question enough to say whether it's stupid
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03:35:23 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvgKX2uVRy0 ah nostalgia
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03:50:24 <monqy> shachaf: not even in here, either
03:50:37 <shachaf> I just said "Hello, sir."!
03:50:50 <monqy> is this a new trick
03:51:24 <shachaf> Are you going to say hello?
03:52:20 <shachaf> monqy: You should come visit.
03:52:34 <monqy> where? silly valley?
03:53:05 <monqy> but that's over there and I'm over here
03:53:31 <shachaf> You should come over there.
03:54:49 <monqy> I don't travel much
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04:16:52 <HackEgo> monqy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
04:17:04 <HackEgo> MONQY: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
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04:54:02 <monqy> hello im back from being away (not here)
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05:12:52 <zzo38> If you cannot believe six impossible things then you cannot have good imagination
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05:24:30 <elliott> @tell elliott Try the parameter-for-each-method style of unsafeCoerce dictionary-passing.
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05:24:38 <elliott_> @tell elliott Try the parameter-for-each-method style of unsafeCoerce dictionary-passing.
05:25:29 <Sgeo> zzo38, what if I believe I have written a program to determine whether an arbitrary Turing machine halts or not, and that my program always halts and gives the correct answer.
05:25:55 <elliott_> that's only one impossible thing sorry!!!
05:26:26 <Sgeo> What if I believe I'm smarter than elliott_?
05:26:31 <Sgeo> Does that count as impossible?
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05:44:04 <zzo38> Sgeo: I suppose it does count as impossible, but it isn't what I meant.
05:44:20 <zzo38> (I mean the program to solve the halting problem, not whether you are smarter than elliott_)
05:44:48 <zzo38> (I meant that is what counts as impossible; not that is what I meant by the original statement!)
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06:05:35 <shachaf> kmc: Thanks to http://acm.wustl.edu/functional/haskell.php , I now know the steps to learning Haskell! Syntax, Commonly Used Functions & Basic Programming Techniques, Laziness, Types, Monads, I/O, Advanced Stuff and Further Reading
06:06:57 <kmc> http://blog.masterbranch.com/post/20813500731/open-source-projects-ranked-by-awesomeness
06:07:21 <kmc> finally someone has made an awesome ranking of awesome kick-ass hacker awesomeness
06:07:50 <shachaf> Wow, someone has figured out at last that awesomeness is the criterion to rank projects by.
06:08:37 <kmc> it's only natural that the top 10 projects are 7 ruby libraries, jquery-mobile, and a package manager for OS X
06:08:40 <shachaf> I had the idea ages ago but I'm glad someone else figured it out.
06:08:53 <kmc> these are the most awesome kick-ass hacker projects of awesomeness
06:09:05 <kmc> linux and gcc just aren't awesome
06:09:28 <shachaf> Apparently the awesomeness of a project is calculated from the awesomeness of its developers.
06:09:33 <kmc> you can tell they're not awesome because the developers don't sound like retarded children
06:10:04 <shachaf> And the awesomeness of a developer is calculated from the awesomeness of other people who Like and Follow them.
06:10:14 <pikhq> Clearly rails is the awesomest thing.
06:10:27 <shachaf> pikhq: Not as much as docrails!
06:10:33 <kmc> shachaf, did you see the several people on HN who were congratulating themselves (in apparent seriousness) that their hipster startup web-design aesthetic had rubbed off on the tragically un-stylish academics who developed Mosh?
06:10:44 <pikhq> Rails is so awesome its documentation is twice-awesome.
06:11:42 <shachaf> kmc: Well, it says "Make it look like a fake startup company" right on the front page.
06:11:54 <kmc> yeah I think the joke went over a few heads :)
06:13:46 <kmc> i think Keith is correct that "awesome" is a term of art in the Ruby / web community
06:13:49 <shachaf> There's a talk tomorrow: «Everyone interested in math is invited. Sander Kuper will be giving a talk on "Space-filling curves and the Hahn-Mazurkiewicz theorem"»
06:14:21 <kmc> but I don't know what it means
06:14:24 <kmc> for all I know these 7 ruby libraries really are the most awesome software
06:16:00 <kmc> linux might be useful software but it's certainly not Awesome
06:16:06 <kmc> i mean, it's below the drupal layer
06:16:09 <kmc> who even needs to think about that
06:16:36 <kmc> shachaf, I don't know enough topology to appreciate the statement of the Hahn-Mazurkiewicz theorem :/
06:16:43 <shachaf> kmc: Just looked for the comment you mentioned and found http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3821776 , for what it's wroth.
06:16:45 <kmc> much less its proof or implicatios
06:17:13 <kmc> we did list IO::Pty somewhere
06:17:18 <kmc> but not on mosh.mit.edu
06:17:43 <kmc> i also like that "a github page with somebody's vim configuration" is more Awesome than vim
06:17:57 <kmc> i mean it's really obvious how
06:18:07 <kmc> vim isn't written in Ruby, but this config might be a config for writing Ruby
06:19:16 <kmc> every time I read hacker news it makes me embarrassed about the fact that someone might apply the "hacker" label to me
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06:20:52 <shachaf> You'd rather have http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html applied to you?
06:21:09 <shachaf> There should be an Internet "What Kind of Hacker Are You" quiz.
06:21:19 <shachaf> Are you more of an "ESR Hacker" or a "PG Hacker"?
06:21:26 <shachaf> It's an important question.
06:21:44 <kmc> i tend to rage against them as more or less interchangeable groups
06:21:46 <kmc> maybe this is inaccurate
06:22:08 <kmc> ESR writes crap code and is obsessed with dick-measuring and self-promotion
06:22:21 <kmc> that trait seems to be shared with the HN crowd
06:23:21 <kmc> i think the hacker mythos that PG advances for business reasons is the same one ESR advances for whatever reason he has
06:24:15 <kmc> both camps are obsessed with drawing a line between Us and Them
06:24:58 <kmc> and PG will try to convince you that the only way to prove you're one of Us is to work for PG for under minimum wage for a summer
06:28:45 <shachaf> http://www.sh4un.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/broadcastip.gif
06:30:46 <shachaf> Apparently https://github.com/rubyspec/rubyspec is a spec?
06:31:11 <kmc> an awesome spec
06:31:36 <shachaf> I thought specs were supposed to be more general than unit tests.
06:32:16 <kmc> obviously you aren't an awesome kick-ass hacker
06:32:26 <olsner> afaict, a spec is what you get when you run unit tests and format the output in a particular way
06:32:53 <shachaf> kmc: How do I become one. :-(
06:32:53 <olsner> well, maybe not "unit" tests, but a bunch of tests
06:33:34 <kmc> it looks like the tests are annotated with text which together forms more of a conventional language spec
06:33:51 <kmc> it's like a language spec with examples built in, and a way to check all the examples against your implementation
06:34:09 <kmc> is this use of the word "spec" also a Ruby term of art?
06:34:23 <shachaf> Though I wouldn't call it an "executable spec".
06:34:46 <shachaf> Apparently it is: http://rspec.info/
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06:36:29 <kmc> you're just splitting hairs because you aren't awesome enough
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06:46:26 <shachaf> kmc: BayHac is next weekend!
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07:42:09 <shachaf> kmc: Hmm, maybe you don't need to decode the instruction.
07:42:12 <shachaf> Just look at the state of the page before and after.
07:42:14 <shachaf> That would be even worse efficiency-wise, of course. :-)
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08:12:48 <shachaf> kmc: Apparently libgpm handles xterm events too.
08:13:18 <shachaf> But gpm the mouse server doesn't handle xterm escape codes.
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08:22:01 <Ngevd> What's your favourite esoteric programming language?
08:23:59 <Ngevd> I prefer brainfuckonballones
08:25:58 <monqy> my balones are cold air only please
08:26:47 <monqy> hot air makes them uncomfortable, and uncomfortable balonnes means uncomfortable monqy
08:27:18 <atlantan> you cant have monqy unless you're uncomfortable yourself
08:28:26 <atlantan> hot air balloons do manage comfortably
08:28:39 <atlantan> seven times seven equals eight
08:28:59 <monqy> maybe it is comfortably for you, but have you considered the balonnes?
08:29:44 <monqy> balones always belong, i am afraid and sorry both
08:29:58 <monqy> shachaf: welcome to conversation
08:30:01 <atlantan> riding air bubbles belongs in the train station
08:30:57 <atlantan> it's an academic anomaly in space time travel
08:31:02 <HackEgo> shachaf: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
08:31:35 <shachaf> monqy: Remember when you used to say hi?
08:32:07 <monqy> I'll relive the experience tonight, hi
08:32:51 <monqy> today was a bad day to try kicking that habit
08:32:56 <monqy> because tonight it is a party
08:33:19 <shachaf> You can kick the habit another day.
08:34:21 <atlantan> you guys have got an escapism plague going
08:35:06 <monqy> I'm too tired for poetry
08:35:19 <monqy> maybe I should sleep
08:35:38 <shachaf> monqy has other addictions
08:35:42 <itidus20> maybe if shachaf suggests it to him he will
08:38:14 <itidus20> monqy: if the hi's haunt you.. you can give them up again soon
08:38:27 <shachaf> Giving up hi is easy. I've done it hundreds of time.
08:38:32 <atlantan> hello budgy cantella max rules per porridge
08:39:00 <monqy> what if I'm hooked on hi
08:39:06 <monqy> what if i never escape
08:39:34 <shachaf> Many people lead a normal life even with hi
08:39:52 <itidus20> monqy: it's not true.. they are secretly haunted by the hi
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08:41:03 <atlantan> hi is a sky equation and it roots itself in humanity
08:47:18 <atlantan> subjectivist microbes do relay interference
08:49:33 <itidus20> sir, it appears you have a thought disorder
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08:50:50 <atlantan> im a good cunt man dont be a bitch
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09:19:09 <qfr> Does this channel have any actual operators?
09:19:17 <qfr> Who just lurk without @
09:19:23 <qfr> Waiting to pounce?
09:20:27 <atlantan> i wonder if theres anyone here who wants to talk
09:21:48 <qfr> You have the ability to make people not want to talk
09:22:14 <qfr> It might be related to your average sentence reading like it's straight out of Finnegan's Wake
09:22:42 <atlantan> my hat does turn backwards occasionally
09:24:07 <qfr> You would love it
09:24:12 <qfr> It's just like you
09:24:48 <atlantan> are dragons claws allowed in here?
09:26:39 <qfr> Homosexuals are welcome
09:26:41 <qfr> Dragons are not
09:26:43 <qfr> Sorry mate
09:27:40 <atlantan> sorry mate but you braze too many waters
09:33:50 <atlantan> are there any other esoterica chats you could recommend
09:41:47 <shachaf> kmc: Oh, did you know that in addition to \e[? Pm h and Pm l, you can Pm s to save and Pm r to restore?
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11:42:26 <atlantan> pythagoras theorom is really a quilt
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13:53:36 <ais523> oh btw, this is one of the more awesome TDWTF threads I've seen in a while: http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/25919/285908.aspx#285908
13:54:53 <ais523> (summary: someone at White Castle was turning straws round to have a "this end up" sign at the top; turns out that they have a "this end up" sign on /both/ ends, but only on one side, and they were turning over just the straws where the sign wasn't visible because the straw was facing the wrong way)
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13:55:01 <ais523> there's at least two layers of WTF there
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13:57:25 <RocketJSquirrel> I like how the guy didn't even mention the WTF that is printing "this end up" on both ends, just about flipping it 'round the wrong axis.
13:57:53 <ais523> presumably there's a limit to how much stupidity can be perceived in a short period of time
13:58:13 <ais523> also, it's snoofle, he has to deal with huge amounts of stupidity at his day job too (and gets paid a lot for it)
13:58:19 <ais523> (which is why he still does it, I think)
14:02:12 <RocketJSquirrel> Note with velocity 64 + expression 127 has the same amplitude during sustain as a note with velocity 127 + expression 64. I have learned this by careful measurement, since the actual relationship is unspecified. And it's true for all values of velocity and expression. EXCEPT when the expression changes too fast, then it seems to just make up shit.
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15:28:04 <ais523> wow, I've found a website that mostly works fine without JS, except that it has a <noscript> tag that covers up the entire content area, deliberately, and prevents any links working
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15:31:53 <ais523> and works fine for me if I just firebug away the tag (adblock doesn't seem capable of getting rid of them)
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15:52:20 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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16:07:54 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I think I've found an STM-related statement we can *all* agree is idiotic.
16:07:59 <elliott> "It seems locks are more composable than STM."
16:11:24 <elliott> "@jmg: I've read through that paper before, and I'm not really sure about the logic. If I have a function f that has a transaction that runs for 0.01 seconds for 0.00001 seconds, and another function g that has a transaction that uses the same TVar that runs every 10 seconds for 0.1 seconds, I can't compose the two, f will "lock out" g. I could compose the two using locks however (although, f would be slightly delayed at times). It seems locks ar
16:11:24 <elliott> e more composable than STM. – Clinton 9 hours ago"
16:11:24 <elliott> I think they have no idea what locks /or/ STM are :P
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16:11:24 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Your DMS likes to die.
16:11:54 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: It's just ping-based, so if Codu hiccups, it fires.
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16:12:29 <RocketJSquirrel> log(playedVelocity)+log(expression) = log(desiredVelocity)+log(64/127) \ expression = e^(log(desiredVelocity) + log(64/127) - log(playedVelocity))
16:12:34 <elliott> OK, this STM guy keeps asking a billion questions about the minutiae of various concurrency abstractions in Haskell >_>
16:12:39 <RocketJSquirrel> Now, what can VERY CLEVER people tell me about simplifying that last equation?
16:12:49 <RocketJSquirrel> Something about having e raised to the power of a bunch of logs summed?
16:12:53 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: That sure is math!
16:13:11 <elliott> Wolfram|Alpha doesn't understand your query
16:13:11 <elliott> Showing instead result for query: log log log
16:13:39 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: HAY IS IT 64d/127p
16:13:45 <elliott> (Turns out W|A hates multi-letter variable names :P)
16:14:03 <elliott> Those are, like, powers of two.
16:14:05 <RocketJSquirrel> The e^ and logs cancel out (and promote + and - into * and /), making the whole thing retarded.
16:14:53 <RocketJSquirrel> "After running the program nearly half hour,it finally finished without segfault.but the computer became really slow,30 seconds for terminal 30seconds for closing a tab in browser, do you restart your computer every time after execute it. I gotta restart now"
16:14:59 <RocketJSquirrel> "No, we don't restart our computers after running the program. Students run their programs all the time in the lab and the machine never need to be rebooted."
16:15:06 <RocketJSquirrel> "I wish I bought one of those powerful machines instead of this wreck"
16:15:11 <RocketJSquirrel> "It doesn't have to do with the computer. It has to do with your code."
16:15:21 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: No matter how stupid your STM guy is, this student is more so.
16:17:33 <elliott> That guy isn't smart enough to come out with the real gems like "It seems locks are more composable than STM.".
16:18:46 <RocketJSquirrel> In the last day, he's claimed that strncpy doesn't work, diff doesn't work, that the performance numbers we presented are 60 times less than what's actually possible, and that his code works even though it crashes after 30 minutes of chewing through all the memory.
16:19:47 <elliott> Well, he's right. strncpy and diff don't work, because they're C, and Unix.
16:21:06 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Hey, I hate Haskell and STM.
16:24:17 <elliott> The internet is too small.
16:24:34 <elliott> No, really. The internet is too small.
16:26:57 <elliott> It's not the IP addresses, it's the graph!
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16:41:02 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 11 17:41:31
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16:46:32 <zzo38> Are account number and branch numbers on cheques have checksums?
16:49:16 <RocketJSquirrel> My guess would be that the barcode does (as part of its barcode encoding) but the actual numbers do not. Just a guess though.
16:49:56 <zzo38> The cheques I have do not include a barcode
16:50:18 <elliott> My cheques are plastic and have magnetic strips on them and they're called credit cards
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16:56:05 <RocketJSquirrel> "And I'd like to contribute [...] my erotic fiction starring Midshipman First Class James Port, 'Hard To Port'." — Utahraptor
17:06:46 <elliott> "It makes no sense to say min USA Canada or USA < Canada."
17:06:56 <elliott> UM CLEARLY IT DOES AND THE ANSWER IS "NO"
17:07:59 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: So where's the JS implementation of my language?
17:08:19 <oklofok> he thought stars are planets
17:09:02 <oklofok> and seemed to have a worse english vocabulary than me
17:10:43 <oklofok> (although probably more reliable in everyday life)
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17:31:14 <elliott> ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:C-INTERCAL may interest you
17:31:42 <ais523> elliott: I saw that, and didn't join in because I wasn't sure
17:31:48 <ais523> I'd say it's both an impl, and a language described by that impl
17:35:48 <elliott> grr, why don't browsers have search-and-replace functionality in textboxes?
17:39:44 <elliott> ais523: why didn't you tell me :'(
17:43:26 <elliott> hey, CLC has an esolang account
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17:55:51 <elliott> "[1][2][citation needed]" --Wikipedia
17:58:32 <Sgeo> "Wikipedia" --Wikipedia
18:00:41 <elliott> ais523: did you know the inventor of Lazy K invented HuffYUV?
18:02:24 <elliott> ais523: hey, this might interest you: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/papers/not-not-ml/index.htm
18:02:33 <elliott> (from the same guy, +spj, +some other guy nobody cares about)
18:03:13 * elliott starts to clean up http://esolangs.org/wiki/UglyBF, realises the only possible benefit to the world that would cause is to increase his own edit count
18:03:52 <ais523> elliott: indeed, it might, but is not something I think I can get my head around right now
18:03:57 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Hcbf&diff=prev&oldid=1152 what a great article
18:04:02 <elliott> before cpressey ruined it with "style"
18:04:23 <elliott> "IL's type system includes negation (continuations), but not implication (function arrow)." -- oh, that's really beautiful
18:06:54 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: leaving).
18:07:58 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Inflection err, what a mess
18:08:37 <elliott> I'm not even sure what to do with that; put a stub description of inflection-the-natlang-concept on the article and move the existing contents to the talk page?
18:11:56 <elliott> ais523: hey, should paper titles be in italics? I forget
18:12:43 <ais523> they aren't normally, IIRC, but I'm not sure
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18:14:45 * elliott expands http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ben_Rudiak-Gould
18:17:08 <elliott> @tell oerjan Hey, what's up with "cont fix"? What *is* with that term? What does it *mean*?
18:17:13 <elliott> @tell oerjan Wait, that was meant to be @ask.
18:17:15 <elliott> @ask oerjan Hey, what's up with "cont fix"? What *is* with that term? What does it *mean*?
18:20:20 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:21:11 <RocketJSquirrel> @tell elliott Does it really make that big of a difference?
18:24:41 -!- dbelange has joined.
18:29:25 <Sgeo> Die! is totally a question.
18:29:48 <Sgeo> I am totally oblivious to context sometimes.
18:29:51 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
18:29:58 <lambdabot> RocketJSquirrel said 8m 46s ago: Does it really make that big of a difference?
18:29:58 <lambdabot> RocketJSquirrel asked 8m 41s ago: I'm sure people will figure it out.
18:31:25 * Sgeo throws a cube with markings on each face at RocketJSquirrel
18:32:18 <Sgeo> What's Dylan Grillin?
18:32:36 <Sgeo> (Ok, I have a weird chain of thought)
18:32:43 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: both, with unrelated content
18:33:34 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UivcJ2VdhfA
18:36:16 * Sgeo is clearly easily amused
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18:38:35 <elliott> the interwiki links on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ben_Rudiak-Gould look really ugly now, right? (might have to force-reload)
18:38:35 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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18:42:03 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: It's ugly, yes?
18:42:12 <elliott> (I just need support so that oerjan doesn't accuse me of bias :P)
18:42:59 <RocketJSquirrel> It would be nice if it were ... uhh, different in virtually any way. It's kind of at a local minima of yuck.
18:43:16 <Sgeo> Haskell is not not ML, apparently.
18:43:55 <elliott> Yes, Sgeo, that is indeed a direct quote from the page I linked.
18:45:05 <elliott> "A Recipe for controlling Lego using Lava" There is no way this article cannot be awesome.
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18:47:49 <RocketJSquirrel> Lava will be some lame and obscure uninteresting programming language.
18:48:43 <Sgeo> The most uninteresting languages are the least obscure, surely?
18:48:45 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I even know what Lava is there.
18:49:00 <Sgeo> .....Oh, Lava probably is NOT a synonym for Java
18:49:07 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: It's a functional hardware specification DSL.
18:49:17 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: CONTROLLING LEGO WITH IT: STILL AWESOME???
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18:56:02 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: How did camel-case get invented?
18:56:19 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: Is this a bad joke or do you have somethingAgainstCamelCase?
18:56:36 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Yes, I hate it. :(
18:56:51 <Sgeo> http://nonadventures.com/no-nad.html
18:58:24 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: *underscores, phillistine.
18:58:38 <Sgeo> http://www.neuticles.com/ this actually exists
18:58:59 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: I have a tendency to use underscores for namespacing, and camel case for everything else.
18:59:29 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: [People who use languages without namespacing.]
19:00:24 * elliott 's preference goes something like hyphen-ation > under_scores > lowerCamelCase > UpperCamelCase > mushedtogether
19:01:48 <ion> elliott: I must admit the “underscores for hierarchy and camelCase for everything else” style is used very nicely with Haskell QuickCheck, even though i don’t like camelCase very much either.
19:02:04 <elliott> ion: Yeah, I'm OK with prop_fooBar.
19:02:19 <elliott> I mean, really it should just be fooBar.
19:02:31 <RocketJSquirrel> Anyway, I couldn't be rocket_j_squirrel because that goes over the nick length limit.
19:02:49 <elliott> Oh, lowerCamelCase has a significant problem:
19:03:03 <ion> prop_transmogrifyTribbles_withNoTribbles, prop_transmogrifyTribbles_withManyTribbles
19:03:08 <RocketJSquirrel> I would agree that that's a problem, but argue with your definition of "significant"
19:03:11 <elliott> And all variants of camel-case have the Http vs. HTTP problem; latter one jumbles word boundaries, former one is hideous.
19:03:29 <ion> And some programs may even format the output as an equivalent tree.
19:03:46 <ion> • transmogrifyTribbles:
19:03:47 <Sgeo> Just use - in names >.>
19:03:47 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Well, none of this really *matters*. It's significant as far as problems with word-smashing schemes go.
19:03:48 <nortti> I tend to use i_something_like_this on variable names andSomethigLikeThis() on function names
19:03:54 <ion> • withNoTribbles: OK
19:03:56 <elliott> Sgeo: * elliott 's preference goes something like hyphen-ation > under_scores > lowerCamelCase > UpperCamelCase > mushedtogether
19:03:59 <ion> • withManyTribbles: FAIL
19:04:00 <elliott> nortti: No, that's the worst.
19:04:13 <elliott> That's horrible and bad and promotes a silly dichotomy.
19:04:24 <elliott> In fact it's practically Hungarian notation restricted to only one type.
19:04:37 <ion> nortti: ಠ_ಠ
19:04:46 <RocketJSquirrel> https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/humidity ← look, it's code I'm publishing that is almost entirely unusable by anyone but myself. It is perhaps the most niche code I've ever written 8-D
19:05:13 <elliott> FINALLY we can humidity with computers.
19:05:22 <elliott> Wait, is that a MIDI thing?
19:05:32 <elliott> I thought it would, like, predict the humidity in your area or something.
19:05:56 <RocketJSquirrel> Sorry, the name's a portmanteau of "human", "midi" and "timidity".
19:06:28 <nortti> elliott: i_ on the start is int, c_ is char, s_ is string, ia_ is in array etc.
19:06:58 <ion> elliott: Predict? That’s boring. Control the humidity!
19:08:19 <Sgeo> timidity already contains midi
19:08:48 <nortti> what naming style should I use if my current one is the worst?
19:09:14 <ion> By definition of “the worst”, anything else. :-P
19:10:14 <elliott> <nortti> elliott: i_ on the start is int, c_ is char, s_ is string, ia_ is in array etc.
19:10:34 <elliott> See, I said it was practically Hungarian notation restricted to only one type.
19:10:37 <elliott> But you're actually using systems Hungarian.
19:10:43 <elliott> That isn't even what Hungarian notation was _designed_ to be.
19:10:57 <elliott> (cf. http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/Wrong.html)
19:11:13 <elliott> Congrats, you use a /perversion/ of the second-worst naming convention ever devised :P
19:11:35 <ais523> what's the first-worst?
19:11:57 <elliott> ais523: The one nortti is using.
19:12:07 <elliott> By definition, a perversion of the second-worst naming convention is pretty much gonna have to be the worst.
19:13:04 <nortti> I use type prefixes because they are very convinient when using assembly
19:14:26 <Sgeo> Wait, what's wrong with Joel's conception of Hungarian notation?
19:14:56 <ais523> elliott: I have used systems hungarian before, but there were too mitigating factors: a) everyone else does in that language too, b) I frequently had several variables referring to the same thing but with different types
19:14:56 <Sgeo> That you're calling it second-worst, I mean
19:15:15 <ais523> basically because the language wanted to be OO but wasn't
19:15:41 <elliott> Sgeo: It's not Joel's, it's Simonyi's.
19:16:14 <elliott> Sgeo: And it's second-worst because, while the perverted form is simply being redundant with your type system, the non-perverted form is working around your insufficient type system.
19:16:26 <elliott> tainted_foo -> foo :: Unsafe String
19:16:30 <elliott> safe_foo -> foo :: Safe String
19:17:07 <Sgeo> But in a language where that's necessary, how is that bad?
19:17:22 <Sgeo> It's a bad sign for the language, but not of the scheme itself, isn't it?
19:18:01 <elliott> Anything specifically designed to awkwardly kludge around the arbitrary limits of a tool is pretty much destined to be terrible.
19:18:47 <nortti> well you can't really add type system to x86-16 assembly
19:21:26 <elliott> gah, when did other-extensions appear...
19:30:12 <zzo38> Do you think (Codensity Endo) is a list monad?
19:30:48 <zzo38> I made up a version of Codensity based on Plus and a Plus that does not require Functor, and it seems to act like it
19:34:57 <elliott> <Sawny> haskell feels like brainfuck
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19:36:38 <dbelange> #haskell and #esoteric should be merged
19:38:08 <shachaf> kmc: I thought I would write a wrapper that translated GPM events to Xterm-style events.
19:38:22 <zzo38> Do you know about codensity?
19:38:29 <kmc> dbelange++
19:38:37 <shachaf> So now *I'm* reading about termios.
19:38:47 <kmc> itt: another person who thinks brainfuck is the most insane possible programming language
19:39:00 <Zuu> dbelange++++++
19:39:05 <shachaf> This is a deep and dark rabbit-like-creature hole.
19:39:09 <elliott> it FUCKED my BRAIN "L O LROFLe"!!!
19:40:04 <shachaf> elliott: Did you see the monqy gave in?
19:40:08 <shachaf> You weren't there for him. :-(
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19:41:13 <Zuu> I was wondering, does this channel ever talk about something unrelated to haskell, or rather, does it ever talk about any of the less functionally oriented approaches, and/or practical stuff?
19:42:18 <Zuu> i've often scrolled by the window (lurked here a lot), but i dont recall ever seeing anything i would fi?nd interresting.
19:42:19 <dbelange> you can write a big long line that computes primes
19:42:23 <zzo38> Zuu: This channel discuss various things, whether it is related to Haskell or not
19:42:27 <elliott> yes, we talk about things that aren't haskell
19:42:32 <zzo38> View the logs if you want; find many things
19:42:34 <Zuu> zzo38: but does it really?
19:42:38 <elliott> i'm not sure why you'd think we'd talk about practical things in here given the channel name and purpose though
19:42:47 <zzo38> Zuu: Does it really, what?
19:42:52 <elliott> wait aren't you that guy who was wrong about C once and I decided to hold an everlasting grudge against you forevermore because of it
19:42:56 <elliott> i gotta take these things seriously
19:42:59 <elliott> 06:21:19: <shachaf> Are you more of an "ESR Hacker" or a "PG Hacker"?
19:43:09 <elliott> shachaf: is there a third option where i'm e.g. a dead rat or something, that would be preferable
19:43:16 <zzo38> What is a "ESR Hacker" and "PG Hacker"?
19:43:37 <Zuu> zzo38: but does it really? [... context inserted for your convenience ...] discuss various things, whether it is related to Haskell
19:43:46 <Zuu> ... or not
19:44:03 * elliott has no idea what Zuu's question is any more.
19:44:05 <zzo38> Zuu: Yes view the logs. We discuss many things, practical or not, Haskell or not, English or not...
19:44:34 <shachaf> elliott: I don't like how you quote me out of context like that.
19:44:39 <shachaf> It makes it look like I'm serious.
19:44:40 <Zuu> zzo38: ok, if i really have to pull up months old logs to find such, i take that it's a rare occation.
19:44:51 <kmc> <elliott> shachaf: is there a third option where i'm e.g. a dead rat or something, that would be preferable
19:45:05 <elliott> Zuu: see, we were just talking about dead rats
19:45:23 <Zuu> ok, i take that as a no then.
19:45:24 <kmc> #haskell often talks about the less functionally oriented approaches
19:45:35 <kmc> lots of Haskell code is not written in functional style
19:45:39 <zzo38> We have discussed food, computer game, Pokemon card, science, mathematics, esoteric programming, C programming, astrology, religion, spoken languages, dead rats, jokes, philosophy, and much more.......
19:46:07 <kmc> Zuu, #esoteric is nominally about esoteric programming languages: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
19:46:17 <zzo38> kmc: Is mine (see dvi-processing) written in functional style, or not?
19:46:26 <Zuu> kmc: yeah that's what i tohught as well, thats just not what i've seen.
19:46:26 <elliott> it's not like haskell is even discussed that often in here, it's mostly idiots in #haskell ;)
19:46:34 <zzo38> Zuu: Yes, esoteric programming languages is the main topic of this channel, but we are not on this topic much
19:46:43 <elliott> Zuu: do you have a question/complaint/suggestion I honestly have no idea
19:46:49 <kmc> yeah, #esoteric is often used for snarking about #haskell
19:46:55 <lambdabot> fox (fox (fox (fox (fox (fox (fox (fox (fox (fox (fox (fox (fox (fox (fox (...
19:47:02 <kmc> to clarify, when I say "lots of Haskell code is not written in functional style" i mean this is a good thing
19:47:12 <kmc> despite what you read on the internet, Haskell is a practical, multiparadigm language
19:47:18 <elliott> 09:19:09: <qfr> Does this channel have any actual operators?
19:47:18 <elliott> 09:19:17: <qfr> Who just lurk without @
19:47:22 <elliott> qfr: You're not meant to have @ on freenode.
19:47:36 <shachaf> elliott: You're not meant to have @ in this universe.
19:47:36 <kmc> in fact I love imperative programming in Haskell because I still get abstraction, good types, great compiler
19:47:37 <Zuu> zzo38: back to my point, the topic seems to be mostly about haskell and or other higly functional approaches. So, let me ask it stih way, at what times of the week, are you mostly discussing other kinds of languages?
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19:47:42 <zzo38> kmc: I never said it wasn't a good thing. I was asking a different question
19:47:44 <kmc> these things don't magically become worthless once you have state
19:47:46 <elliott> OTOH it looks like no op was online at the time.
19:47:48 <kmc> i thought some people might have
19:47:55 <elliott> Zuu: we don't have a schedule
19:48:02 <zzo38> Zuu: I do not think there is a consistent regularity in it
19:48:04 <elliott> new esolangs rarely come up
19:48:11 <kmc> when I was in #haskell i was always arguing with fanatics who want you to feel dirty for using an IORef ever
19:48:13 <elliott> when there isn't much interesting new esolang stuff it reverts to off-topic nonsense
19:48:26 <elliott> which often involves haskell because some of the regulars here like haskell
19:48:36 <elliott> kmc: you're still indirectly snarking at me!!!
19:48:52 <kmc> elliott, you're still paranoid
19:49:07 <elliott> <timthelion> c_wraith: there are many legal problems with GPL. <timthelion> the most obvious one, is the question "who has copyright?" does every single person who ever added a line of code have copyright? That would make GPL quite the same as public domain. Or do the various contributors have to agree upon themselves in a democratic maner on comercial use? that would make it like a worldwide democracy, since there's no rule that you cannot e
19:49:07 <elliott> dit the source and fork...
19:49:28 -!- augur has joined.
19:49:29 <kmc> what what what what what
19:49:32 <Zuu> great, i just had to confirm that i could part this channel without insulting my interrest in programming languages.
19:49:37 <kmc> head into desk repeatedly
19:49:47 <elliott> Zuu: don't let the door hit you on the way out
19:49:57 <zzo38> Zuu: But if you have questions about anything at all just ask; it is about as relevant as anything else that goes on in this channel
19:50:00 <shachaf> kmc: You know you want to join #haskell and argue with that.
19:50:04 <elliott> gah i still can't remember if you're the person who was wrong about C :(
19:50:06 <shachaf> It's just a few keystrokes away...
19:50:07 <elliott> i'm terrible at managing my grudges
19:50:17 <kmc> elliott, you need a GrudgeDB
19:50:19 <elliott> kmc: did you know that BSD is also "almost public domain"
19:50:29 <Zuu> zzo38: why do i need to ahve questions?
19:50:32 <kmc> massively replicated Post-SQL cloud database
19:50:36 <kmc> for keeping grudges
19:50:44 <zzo38> Zuu: You don't need to have questions. You can have answers instead if you prefer
19:51:02 <shachaf> kmc: An efficient implementation of elliott's GrudgeDB is (const True)
19:51:14 <Zuu> i just liked to talk with likeminded, on an even playing field, but it seems that theres none of that here.
19:51:20 <elliott> non-haskell talk today: http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-04-11#000810Sgeo http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-04-11#060535shachaf http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-04-11#135336ais523
19:51:38 * Zuu leaves, letting the door hit elliott
19:51:49 <elliott> non-haskell talk yesterday: http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-04-10#025713zzo38 http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-04-10#061801 http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-04-10#085550ion ...
19:52:01 -!- Zuu has left (" byes").
19:52:09 <shachaf> elliott: Wait, why are you linking to non-Haskell talk in #esoteric again?
19:52:13 <elliott> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-04-10#132328ion http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-04-10#144906 [...]
19:52:17 <elliott> shachaf: 'cuz Zuu is a moron.
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19:56:02 <elliott> If only you didn't have to be Wile E. Coyote (Super Genious) to program in Haskell. Ok, that may over-state the case just a little but not much. I've been admiring the concept of Haskell for something like 7 years and keeping up on the news and have done a few basic tutorials but once we get much past the inevitable Fibonacci example I am quickly lost. I hope the epiphany will come to me, some day. Until then python will have to do. And that's a
19:56:03 <elliott> shame because I work in info-sec and have some ideas for useful code that might work great in Haskell. I especially like the idea of implementing parsers and certain AI concepts in Haskell. I'll probably do them in python first and then jump to Haskell if I need the speed boost of a compiled language, if my skills ever get up to it.
19:57:34 <shachaf> Good luck learning Haskell, elliott.
19:57:57 <KingOfKarlsruhe> i will never leant it, because i am not able to think in the functional way
19:58:32 <shachaf> The Functional Way is a way few are able to master.
19:59:02 <elliott> The best part of my quotes is when people think I said them because I don't use quote marks.
19:59:37 <shachaf> elliott: I think that was pretty clearly recognizable as not you.
19:59:54 <elliott> Only to people who know what I sound like (i.e. annoying).
20:02:23 <nortti> Whic one should I use in my hobby OS: microkernel or monolithic kernel
20:03:19 <zzo38> I don't know much about your hobby OS to answer
20:03:35 <MDude> Instead of jsut having user mode and kernal mode, create a special semi-kernel mode.
20:03:40 <ion> Both are a bit too good choices. Perhaps you could find a horrible bastardization of either one.
20:04:52 <zzo38> I like Haskell but prefer Ibtlfmm. But tell me do you think dvi-processing is programmed in a functional style or not?
20:05:11 <nortti> MDude: how would semi-kernel mode work? Would it be like rings 1 and 2 on x86-32
20:06:35 <MDude> I'll need to learn more about what kernel mode is other than "where memory management goes".
20:06:51 <zzo38> Well, I am also designing the computer, it has no operating system or kernel; it does have BIOS but most of the functions don't use the BIOS they use direct access.
20:07:15 <MDude> Are you designing the hardware?
20:07:31 <MDude> Oh wait I guess that's what you just said.
20:07:56 <nortti> zzo38: I am statring my hobby OS development from scratch because last one didn't really like multitasking
20:07:58 <zzo38> Yes I design the hardware; not entirely by myself but I am doing it mostly myself.
20:09:16 <shachaf> kmc: Mosh doesn't underline the space left after it deletes characters. Is that considered a bug?
20:09:21 <MDude> Learn what a microkernel does, and build that into the hardware.
20:09:29 <shachaf> (Its prediction does the wrong thing in irssi sometimes.)
20:10:10 <zzo38> How do I build a microkernel into a hardware?
20:10:44 <zzo38> You can make Constant functor Alternative by defining <|> the same as <*>
20:11:23 <kmc> shachaf, I don't know
20:11:29 <zzo38> And I have proposed other way to define instances for Free and Cofree
20:11:34 <kmc> you should ask KeithW if he considers that a bug
20:12:44 <nortti> MDude: microkernel does memory managment, task switching and message passing
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20:13:25 <zzo38> Now we have actlike: Maybe = Free Finalize; Cont x = Codensity (Constant x); [] = Codensity Endo; Tree = Cofree []; Either x = Free (Constant x); Writer = Cofree (Constant x); ...
20:13:48 <elliott> oerjan: I added an icon to Wikipedia links; everyone* cried at the hideousness; I removed it.
20:13:58 <zzo38> Are these correct? Are there any others too?
20:14:25 * oerjan swats RocketJSquirrel -----###
20:14:26 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
20:14:28 <shachaf> elliott: You ought to golf your regexps. s/.$//
20:14:50 <oerjan> <elliott> (I just need support so that oerjan doesn't accuse me of bias :P) <-- YOU ARE ALL BIASED
20:15:03 <elliott> oerjan: It was really ugly though.
20:15:05 <elliott> I'll put it back up so you can see.
20:15:26 <lambdabot> elliott said 1h 58m 16s ago: Hey, what's up with "cont fix"? What *is* with that term? What does it *mean*?
20:15:26 <lambdabot> elliott said 1h 58m 11s ago: Wait, that was meant to be @ask.
20:15:26 <lambdabot> elliott asked 1h 58m 9s ago: Hey, what's up with "cont fix"? What *is* with that term? What does it *mean*?
20:15:31 <elliott> oerjan: Force-reload http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ben_Rudiak-Gould to observe the ugly.
20:15:48 <zzo38> shachaf: I know what it is, but I don't know if there is any other type like that in the available libraries.
20:16:41 <MDude> nortti: I'm looking up those things to see if I can make it seem plausible to do them all in hardware.
20:16:42 <oerjan> elliott: erm, i'd imagine it would be better if blue like the link, and superscripted
20:17:00 <elliott> oerjan: Bluing it would almost certainly violate the trademark policy.
20:18:44 <elliott> oerjan: Okay, done: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ben_Rudiak-Gould
20:18:46 <elliott> Still ugly if you ask me :P
20:18:53 <elliott> (And barely looks like the WP logo any more.)
20:19:53 <zzo38> shachaf: Free [] is the datastructure that can have a single value or list where the list elements can also have sublists and so on
20:20:47 <oerjan> elliott: oh well. it ought to have a similar style to the other icons...
20:20:59 <shachaf> zzo38: I know what it is, just not another name for it or an idea of why it would be particularly interesting.
20:21:21 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, I don't know the other name for it either
20:22:05 <elliott> oerjan: This might be better: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ben_Rudiak-Gould
20:22:09 <elliott> Still not a fan, though >_>
20:22:21 <oerjan> elliott: btw it's a weird way to protect your trademark to make links to you look almost indistinguishable to internal links in your open source software ;P
20:22:43 <elliott> what does *that* have to do with trademarks?
20:22:56 <zzo38> Non-empty list = Cofree Maybe
20:23:50 <shachaf> List = Maybe :. Cofree Maybe
20:26:57 <lambdabot> Data.Functor (<$) :: Functor f => a -> f b -> f a
20:26:57 <lambdabot> Control.Applicative (<$) :: Functor f => a -> f b -> f a
20:26:57 <lambdabot> Data.Functor (<$>) :: Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
20:28:39 <elliott> oerjan: how do you use two modules at once in hugs
20:28:51 <zzo38> Identity = Free Initialize
20:29:44 <zzo38> Identity = Cofree Finalize
20:30:12 <oerjan> elliott: you have to make a module importing both
20:30:58 <elliott> Data.Semigroup> Sum 42 <> Sum 43
20:31:19 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
20:37:31 <zzo38> I don't know what (Codensity []) would be, though.
20:41:51 <oerjan> elliott: also wtf do you see "cont fix"
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20:43:51 <oerjan> elliott: your @message
20:45:15 <oerjan> elliott: how can i know what "cont fix" means if i don't know any context.
20:46:05 <lambdabot> forall a r. ((a -> r) -> r) -> Cont r a
20:46:15 <elliott> modulo the transformer identity crap
20:46:18 <elliott> > evalCont $ do { xs <- cont fix; return (():xs) }
20:46:24 <elliott> > flip runCont id $ do { xs <- cont fix; return (():xs) }
20:46:25 <lambdabot> [(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),()...
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20:48:43 <zzo38> There is also Codensity
20:49:48 <oerjan> hm given a continuation, it applies it to the final result
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20:50:20 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314.
20:50:29 <oerjan> giving the final result
20:51:21 <elliott> Right, it lets you access the final result of any CPS'd computation.
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20:58:54 <oerjan> <shachaf> There's a talk tomorrow: «Everyone interested in math is invited. Sander Kuper will be giving a talk on "Space-filling curves and the Hahn-Mazurkiewicz theorem"»
20:59:04 <oerjan> <shachaf> Should I go?
20:59:55 <elliott> (oerjan's lastn ame is Mazurkiewicz)
21:00:52 <oerjan> no, but i recall that theorem from our work on topological measures.
21:01:37 <oerjan> i suppose it may not be as cool if you don't know about (and need) local connectedness.
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21:08:47 <elliott> "Reverting my edits, unless you're me, requires broad consenus" --Wikipedia edit summary
21:09:42 <oerjan> <atlantan> kia ora bro im a maori <-- worst palindrome ever.
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21:10:25 <elliott> There seems to be an uptick of morons with a fondness for racial slurs in here lately.
21:11:15 <oerjan> <qfr> Does this channel have any actual operators? <-- occasionally.
21:12:27 <ion> Plus and greater-than have been seen here every now and then.
21:12:38 <oerjan> oklofok: a guy from a sunken continent
21:13:38 <oklofok> ah well those georgians are all a bunch of fucking bigots
21:13:40 <shachaf> oerjan: Hmm, it's in 2 hours.
21:14:11 <shachaf> I'm not sure whether it works with my other scheduled appointment of the day, though.
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21:15:04 <elliott> kmc: Is it just me, or does mosh take longer to connect than ssh?
21:15:44 <shachaf> elliott: Makes sense, since there's at least one extra round-trip.
21:16:08 <elliott> This is time before it asks for my privkey password.
21:16:31 * oerjan does a demotivating meditation
21:16:34 <shachaf> elliott: That makes less sense because as far as I know all it does it run mosh-server on the server.
21:16:55 <oerjan> I DON'T NEED TO COMPETE WITH ELLIOTT - AUM - I DON'T NEED TO COMPETE WITH ELLIOTT
21:16:56 <elliott> shachaf: I have a placebo. :(
21:18:00 <ion> Apparently less scary than #haskell, since kmc is only on #mosh.
21:24:51 <elliott> The asteroid that killed the dinosaurs must have ejected billions of tons of life-bearing rock into space. Now physicists have calculated what must have happened to it. (technologyreview.com)
21:25:01 <elliott> If this doesn't end with "all the dinosaurs are chilling in space somewhere" I am done with science.
21:25:26 * oerjan looks at yearcats and become uneasy because "before 1993" is last
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21:26:05 <elliott> oerjan: erm yearcats has always been there
21:26:08 <elliott> i just separated it out into a template
21:26:13 <elliott> I originally had before 1993 first
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21:46:43 <elliott> oerjan: if you don't want to remove info, better readd their email address too
21:47:48 <elliott> from this mess http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Hcbf&oldid=1152
21:48:02 <oerjan> i did look at his last edit
21:48:34 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Language_list&diff=prev&oldid=1122 at least they can alphabetise
21:48:43 <elliott> wow, the language list was so small back then
21:49:19 <elliott> Esoteric programming languages on Wikipedia is currently more complete, although it also has a lot of rubbish, and much of the interesting stuff isn't notable enough for their standards.
21:49:29 <elliott> i like how Esolang has allowed Wikipedia to delete their esolang-cruft guilt-free :)
21:50:47 <oerjan> cpressey removed the email in the first edit after that, i see
21:51:39 <elliott> oerjan: did you know that the inventor of lazy k and kayak also made AviSynth and Huffyuv?!?!?!
21:51:56 <oerjan> not before your edit, no
21:51:59 <elliott> and co-wrote a paper with spj (and some other guy)?!?!?!?!
21:52:40 <elliott> arcanesentiment still looks mighty dead :(
21:54:14 <oerjan> <elliott> My cheques are plastic and have magnetic strips on them and they're called credit cards <-- EUROBURN
21:56:36 <pikhq> At least they're falling out of use.
21:57:04 <oerjan> <RocketJSquirrel> (But then, what DON'T we think is Jesus?) <-- homosexuals. hth.
21:57:34 <oerjan> i suppose there would be exceptions.
21:58:15 -!- ion has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:58:22 <zzo38> (Codensity (Const x)) has callCC, and (Codensity Endo) has Foldable; but what is the general criteria for (Codensity f) to have callCC and Foldable?
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22:06:27 <elliott> +1, very nice question. I presume this hasn't been solved, given the addition of the bounty. I'll look at this later. – MrGomez 1 hour ago
22:07:05 <shachaf> kmc: ESR, PG, or Anonymous? I forgot about that third option.
22:07:40 <elliott> shachaf: The author of that comment has recently been going on an insane bounty-hunting spree on SO, and is generally really high up in the rep leagues due to that.
22:07:51 <elliott> shachaf: That comment is on the only Haskell question with a bounty right now.
22:07:56 <elliott> FUN AND EXCITEMENT FOR THE TERMINALLY BORED
22:08:09 <elliott> Is there any way to clone a list in Haskell? I can't find any documentation on this or anything on SO. If there isn't can someone suggest a simple implementation on how to do so?
22:08:36 <oerjan> shachaf: hey what about script kiddies
22:08:38 <ion> THE TERMINALLY BOLD?
22:09:06 <ion> Is it OCD if you can’t help adding the terminating \x02 to the end of the line?
22:09:35 <elliott> Haskell values are immutable, so there's no need to clone a list; since you can't change it in the first place, you can just reuse the original list. In Haskell, "modifying" a list is just transforming it into a new list; the original list is never changed.
22:09:35 <elliott> Awesome, thanks very much. – gonzoc0ding 4 secs ago
22:09:41 <elliott> Somehow I doubt I resolved the underlying confusion.
22:09:55 <shachaf> Should've just said map id
22:10:13 <oerjan> does ghc have a rule for map id = id
22:10:48 <elliott> This is the easiest 40 rep I've ever made.
22:11:50 <shachaf> "(The rerunning of transactions that is done by the STM runtime is transparent and should not effect the outcome of any computation.)"
22:12:00 <shachaf> Isn't the whole point of it to EFFECT the outcome??!?!
22:12:42 <oerjan> i assume that means that the effect is the same as if it had been run only the last time
22:12:59 <shachaf> Oh, I know what the intended meaning was.
22:13:02 <oerjan> since obviously the order of transactions can matter
22:13:12 <elliott> oerjan: shachaf is making a pedantic e/a point.
22:13:41 <shachaf> elliott: Excuse me. I was *parodying* people who make pedantic e/a points.
22:14:33 <elliott> shachaf: The day when the internet realises that ironically being something is the same as being that thing, ... uh, it'll probably shut down.
22:15:16 * oerjan ironically swats elliott -----###
22:16:49 <shachaf> elliott: I do realize that. I was just ironically pretending I wasn't.
22:17:17 <shachaf> oerjan: You ought to kick me for being a pedant.
22:19:44 <elliott> (User creation log); 21:58 . . Sato (Talk | contribs | block) New user account
22:22:48 * oerjan suspends a broccoli from the ceiling
22:23:01 <oerjan> in a _very_ thin thread
22:24:07 <oerjan> <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: *underscores, phillistine. <-- *philistine
22:25:17 <oerjan> i'm not convinced that's an option for that word
22:25:38 <shachaf> elliott: Do you count T. S. Eliot as British?
22:41:21 <Sgeo> What kind of tool signs his emails with "Sent from my Virtual Machine"?
22:41:37 -!- augur has joined.
22:41:37 <oerjan> virtually anyone could do that
22:41:58 <elliott> any sig starting "Sent from my *" is a take-off of "Sent from my iPhone"
22:42:50 <Sgeo> But ... why would anyone CARE that he's using a VM?
22:42:57 <ais523> is "sent from my iPhone" added by some common iPhone app? or something in the default install?
22:43:09 * ais523 continues to dislike the word "app" even though it's the only correct one in that context
22:43:38 <elliott> ais523: the default mail client adds it
22:43:52 <elliott> Sgeo: anyone who uses sigs like that is just trying to mock people who sent emails ending "Sent from my iPhone"
22:44:09 <elliott> it's like "Sent from my ThinkPad" "Sent from my REAL COMPUTER" "Sent from MY ANUS HUR HUR"
22:44:29 <Sgeo> I don't know if my professor's capable of that
22:44:55 <kmc> the idea of "Sent from my iPhone" is "that's why the spelling and grammar is shit"
22:44:58 <zzo38> But you could use the X-Mailer header if you want to know the program that sends it, I think. You could also see which computer it is from if you needed that too; that is also specified in headers
22:45:01 <kmc> but of course it's advertising for apple
22:45:07 <kmc> nobody reads headers zzo38
22:45:20 <Sgeo> kmc, mail servers and clients do!
22:45:42 <kmc> i have seen people with sigs that apologize for brevity without promoting a particular brand of phone/tablet
22:45:56 <elliott> complaining about 'sent from my iphone" is just zzzzz
22:46:08 <kmc> also I would like to point out that "Sent from my iPhone" is 5 syllables and could be the last line of a haiku
22:46:16 <elliott> like nobody who does that complains about hotmail and yahoo advertising themselves in signatures
22:46:27 <zzo38> When at FreeGeek I use the UNIX 'mail' command and I think it displays all the headers; it sends the "X-Mailer" header too
22:46:59 <Sgeo> Sent from my Android/Sent from my Linux machine/Sent from my iPhone
22:47:51 <ais523> elliott: I complain about hotmail advertising itself in sigs; Yahoo doesn't, as far as I know
22:47:52 <zzo38> I don't add those kind of signature (or any at all); I just tell them not to send HTML email message to me and that works
22:48:24 <elliott> ais523: then you're annoying
22:48:25 <ais523> indeed, Bucky and I both send to Agora through Yahoo!, and it doesn't add advertising on either of ours messages
22:48:30 <elliott> ais523: by "complain about"
22:48:34 <elliott> I mean to the people who send emails from hotmail
22:48:40 <ais523> elliott: well, only to the extent that I don't use hotmail because of that (and for a few other people)
22:48:50 <zzo38> Does it depend whether you use the webpage or SMTP?
22:49:01 <ais523> I /do/ complain about Hotmail refusing to accept messages from Yahoo Groups, though, because that's ridiculous
22:51:36 <kmc> * elliott thinks kmc is psychic
22:51:55 <elliott> WHOA YOU QUOTED MY MESSAGE BEFORE IT EVEN???
22:54:19 <zzo38> Apparently if you are psychic the quantum random number generators in your vicinity become slightly biased (not only in the present, but even in the past and in a different location too!); but I don't really know for sure
22:56:13 <elliott> kmc: I heard PIC doesn't do much for security.
22:56:56 <kmc> where did you hear this?
22:57:14 <kmc> afaik it substantially frustrates return-to-libfoo / return-oriented-programming attacks
22:57:15 <elliott> kmc: Now that I think of it, probably suckless propaganda. :)
22:57:34 <elliott> I think it was this: http://benpfaff.org/papers/asrandom.pdf
22:57:37 <kmc> it's significantly worse on Windows, where the randomized load address is chosen once per exe at boot
22:58:44 <kmc> elliott, I think this exploits the fact that Apache is a forking server
22:58:58 <kmc> so you get many tries on the same memory layout
22:59:03 <zzo38> What is "return-oriented-programming attacks"?
22:59:05 <elliott> Glancing at that paper, I didn't actually read it.
22:59:32 <kmc> zzo38, cseweb.ucsd.edu/~hovav/papers/s07.html
22:59:39 <elliott> This reminds me of http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/inevitable-interpreter.html.
22:59:51 <ion> kmc: What protocol? :-(
23:00:08 * elliott resists making snarky Debian security remark.
23:00:28 <elliott> See, I avoid being a horrible, annoying troll in other channels by simply being a horrible, annoying troll all the time in #esoteric.
23:00:32 <zzo38> What is "return-oriented-programming attacks"?
23:00:53 <elliott> zzo38: cseweb.ucsd.edu/~hovav/papers/s07.html
23:00:58 <elliott> kmc: oh hey that's the paper the blog post mentions
23:01:01 <elliott> zzo38: http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/inevitable-interpreter.html
23:01:21 <kmc> ion, what protocol which?
23:06:33 <kmc> elliott, i've only skimmed the paper too, but it seems far short of showing that ASLR is useless
23:06:45 <kmc> any countermeasure will have counter-countermeasures
23:07:01 <elliott> Yeah, I don't think that's what I read that convinced me of that.
23:07:05 <kmc> the main attack presented in the paper seems only relevant to forking servers on 32-bit
23:07:20 <kmc> "Although 64-bit machines are now beginning to be more widely deployed, 32-bit machines are likely to remain the most widely deployed machines in the short and medium term."
23:07:32 <kmc> times change, I guess :)
23:07:33 <ion> <kmc> zzo38, cseweb.ucsd.edu/~hovav/papers/s07.html
23:07:53 <RocketJSquirrel> kmc: Yeah, you definitely don't have two 32-bit machines in your pockets.
23:08:32 <kmc> RocketJSquirrel, or am I just happy to see you?
23:08:54 <elliott> I was hoping nobody would do that.
23:08:54 <kmc> i'm not running Apache or Oracle DB on my phone
23:09:04 <kmc> you raise a good point but it's not what the paper meant :)
23:10:01 <elliott> kmc: Do you know anything about DDC?
23:10:06 <kmc> not really
23:10:17 <kmc> it has some fans in #haskell{,-blah}
23:10:57 <kmc> I'm glad you value my singular opinion
23:11:21 <elliott> I was looking for info more than opinions.
23:12:59 <zzo38> If there is a vulnerability in some program, you should just fix it.
23:13:24 <elliott> <kmc> i don't think the authors have been dead 50 years
23:13:35 <elliott> kmc: C'mon, it's not that difficult in most jurisdictions, is it?
23:15:03 <kmc> to make something public domain?
23:15:06 <kmc> i don't honestly know
23:15:13 <hagb4rd> the controversial about he responsibility of the authors of open source/free software is an old unfishished story
23:15:14 <kmc> I think there are jurisdictions where copyright is a moral right you can't waive
23:15:36 <kmc> even if you give a completely permissive license, you still have the copyright
23:15:47 <elliott> yeah, but I'm pretty sure e.g. the US and ~most of Europe let you release it
23:15:48 <kmc> (I don't know how they handle work-for-hire; perhaps there are exceptions for an established employment relationship)
23:15:55 <kmc> yeah I don't know
23:16:01 <elliott> IIRC it became possible in Germany once they changed things so that the GPL worked
23:19:19 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Apr 12 00:19:48
23:20:34 <elliott> SNARKY REMARK ABOUT ALL PROBLEMS BEING CAUSED BY C++ AND AUTOTOOLS
23:22:11 <kmc> https://github.com/keithw/mosh/issues/113
23:22:32 <elliott> Least sincere "Thanks for your feedback!" ever.
23:22:41 <kmc> i mean, our boost dep *is* ridiculous
23:22:53 <kmc> your distro will pull in 100 MB of binaries just so we can use a few headers and not link anything
23:23:02 <kmc> we are working on that
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23:24:31 <monqy> what was with that guy
23:24:49 <elliott> we seem to be attracting a lot of racist morons lately i said???
23:25:04 <zzo38> I make it, the other one, all programs are loaded at 0x80000000, it is single-tasking, the BIOS can only be accessed by NMI, and there is a small amount of RAM private for use of the BIOS for such things as debugging and error emulation. If there is buffer overflows possible in your program, you should fix it, instead of relying on the operating system to fix it for you.
23:26:12 <zzo38> No virus can hijack the system because all programs are self-contained.
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23:28:44 <hagb4rd> do you mean the hardware part oft it zzo38?
23:29:00 <elliott> kmc: you should consider using zzo38's system instead
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23:30:09 <zzo38> elliott: Actually it is only more secure if the software itself is designed to be secure against buffer overflows!
23:30:26 <zzo38> hagb4rd: That is done by both the hardware and the software
23:30:51 <hagb4rd> and what with smashing the stack?
23:30:57 <kmc> if you crash your car you should not do that, instead of relying on seatbelts and airbags
23:31:35 <zzo38> hagb4rd: Do you mean for my system?
23:31:52 <hagb4rd> good question..what system are we talking about?
23:32:05 <zzo38> kmc: Well, yes; even if you have seatbelts and airbags you still shouldn't crash your car
23:32:17 <kmc> i agree with you zzo38
23:32:19 <zzo38> (Unless you are a crash test dummy)
23:32:26 <kmc> and yet I still feel better riding in a car with these things than one without
23:32:40 <kmc> it is the same with -fPIC and such
23:32:51 <elliott> that none of these issues exist with @
23:32:53 <zzo38> I feel better riding in a car with seatbelts; for airbags I don't care
23:32:58 <kmc> obviously we hope Mosh has no buffer overflows, and have put and will continue to put much effort towards this goal
23:33:03 <zzo38> elliott: I believe you
23:33:04 <kmc> yet we may fail
23:33:15 <elliott> zzo38: thank you, you are the first person to believe any claim I've made about @
23:33:41 <zzo38> But if @ doesn't exist then that is a vacuous statement
23:34:09 <hagb4rd> all van-neuman machines store the data and the controlling load in physically the same memory (other then harvard arch. e.g.) which makes it vulnerable for all times
23:34:11 <zzo38> Nevertheless I am sure you would fix it if you did make it
23:34:45 <kmc> but we would also be happier if in the meantime it's harder to exploit
23:34:57 <kmc> the meantime can of course include times when we are not aware of the bug
23:35:04 <elliott> kmc: Are you going to port mosh to @?
23:35:11 <elliott> It would be useful for interfacing to those ugly legacy systems.
23:35:13 <kmc> and also people who are still running the old software even after we've published a fix
23:35:16 <zzo38> OK, what stack-smashing exploit are you refering to specifically? If so, then I can tell you what it is in my system
23:35:31 <kmc> elliott, of course, as soon as you send me a pre-release developer edition of @
23:35:50 <elliott> kmc: Okay. Remind me in ten years.
23:36:31 <elliott> This is what happens when your design depends on solutions to several open problems :(
23:36:35 * kmc sets up google calendar
23:36:44 <elliott> Nooo! Don't. I'll be 26 in ten years.
23:36:51 <elliott> I don't want to *think* about being 26. That's practically dead.
23:37:05 <kmc> wait, for real?
23:37:24 <kmc> you're actually 16 years old?
23:37:43 <elliott> hagb4rd: What? You've been here for years!
23:37:55 <kmc> somehow i don't believe you
23:37:59 <zzo38> I would like to know if you found any hole in my idea!
23:38:06 <elliott> It's true, all I do is lie.
23:38:08 <kmc> but I'm probably just committing the fallacy of assuming everyone on the internet is like me
23:38:13 * kmc is closer to 26 than to 16
23:38:19 * kmc is almost dead
23:38:28 <elliott> It's okay, I'll come to your funeral.
23:39:03 <zzo38> If you come to my funeral I will sue you
23:39:19 <zzo38> elliott: Including "It's true, all I do is lie."?
23:40:08 <elliott> haha: "I've been fiddling with mosh in the lab here and I'm really impressed. I need to read up on your underlying protocol a bit, but right now I'm no longer as motivated to finish fixing tcp."
23:40:13 <elliott> kmc: you're demotivating the bufferbloat guy!
23:40:42 <kmc> yeah i saw
23:40:53 <kmc> you should bloat some more buffers
23:40:55 <kmc> to make up for it
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23:46:29 * shachaf is closer to 16 than to 26!
23:46:50 <shachaf> And that's even without annoying the factorial pedantry you (you know who you are) were about to say.
23:47:17 <zzo38> Do you know how to improve this program, including to draw additional shapes and pie charts and so on? http://sprunge.us/MKDJ
23:56:14 <elliott> kmc: Can mosh solve the problem whereby a single crappy X program can freeze my entire computer?
23:56:27 <elliott> shachaf: I wasn't going to say anything.
23:57:02 <zzo38> About factorial, I guess
23:57:13 <shachaf> If you weren't going to say anything, then clearly I wasn't talking to you.
23:58:15 <elliott> Cool Hacker Titles for Your Business Card (beza1e1.tuxen.de)
23:58:27 <elliott> "PG Hacker" and "ESR Hacker", right kmc?
23:58:42 <zzo38> What is "PG Hacker" and "ESR Hacker"?
00:00:05 <zzo38> I have printed business cards for someone using TeX, a few times.
00:01:58 <shachaf> Have you printed Magic: The Gathering cards using TeX?
00:02:32 <zzo38> shachaf: No, I haven't done so. I do not even have the fonts for the mana symbols and that stuff
00:02:45 <elliott> shachaf: No, that's TeXnicard.
00:03:36 <zzo38> (Which means I cannot do so by TeXnicard either; but if someone make GF fonts for the mana symbols then it will work)
00:04:12 <zzo38> (METAFONT is preferable since it is scalable; GF is not scalable)
00:05:11 <elliott> You can add it to the language list though
00:05:27 * oerjan isn't even browsing esolang at the moment
00:05:56 <monqy> http://esolangs.org/wiki/EGL
00:06:07 <monqy> looks like it's in need of some hands
00:10:05 <shachaf> monqy: do you what elliott told me today monqy
00:10:43 <shachaf> elliott doesn't want you to quit hi because it's bad for you
00:10:48 <shachaf> he just wants all the hi for himself
00:12:15 <zzo38> Do LLVM programs require the standard C library to run?
00:12:55 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/EGL tada
00:13:41 <elliott> <kmc> this C++03 faux-functional stuff is really awful
00:13:44 <elliott> kmc: FEW TOO MANY WORDS THERE EH EH
00:13:53 <elliott> SPECIFICALLY THE "03 FAUX-FUNCTIONAL" PART
00:15:11 <shachaf> SOUNDS TO ME LIKE "THIS" and "STUFF" ARE ALSO EXTRANEOUS
00:15:26 <shachaf> BECAUSE C++? MORE LIKE STUPID PLUS PLUS, AM I RIGHT?
00:19:44 <elliott> Apparently esolangs.org has 1,406 incoming links from animepaper.net.
00:20:08 <MDude> I will go see what that is.
00:20:56 <oerjan> maybe that's a japanese center for malbolge programming
00:21:11 <MDude> Aw, it doesn't seem to sell anime-decorated stationary or toilet paper.
00:21:33 <elliott> Finally. Anime-decorated toilet paper.
00:21:44 <elliott> The one thing I have been waiting for my entire life!
00:22:10 <MDude> If you spin the roll fast enough, it's like a flip book.
00:25:20 <elliott> I've been asking a few questions about concurrency in Haskell, particular TVar, and I've had concerns about livelock with TVar.
00:25:20 <elliott> Instead, I've proposed this solution.
00:25:21 <elliott> (1) Wrap all shared data in the program in one data structure, and wrap that in an IORef. (2) Simply do any changes using atomicModifyIORef.
00:25:28 <elliott> kmc: Why didn't the smart Haskell people think of that before?
00:25:54 <elliott> I am not able rightly to apprehend etc.
00:26:26 <kmc> it's not actually a bad idea, dependint on your workload
00:26:41 <oerjan> elliott: garbage in, babbage out
00:26:59 <kmc> i remember Simon Marlow benchmarked a bunch of different concurrent datastructures for the IO manager
00:27:06 <kmc> and the one that did best was IORef + persistent data structure
00:27:23 <kmc> i guess I can't tell without context whether they think this should replace all STM ever
00:27:41 <kmc> also you can't make it strict
00:27:47 <elliott> kmc: Yes, but that would correspond to one IORef for each "structure".
00:27:52 <elliott> Not one IORef with your ENTIRE PROGRAM STATE.
00:27:59 <kmc> well, if you want STM-like atomicity...
00:28:39 <oerjan> elliott: so he's basically reinvented the python GIL (sp?)
00:28:49 <elliott> kmc: At least it won't livelock!
00:29:00 <kmc> atomicModifyIORef is lockless
00:29:18 <elliott> Still forces serialisation
00:29:31 <kmc> i mean saying it "reinvents the GIL" is not really fair
00:29:40 <kmc> but maybe fair enough for our "making fun of people on stackoverflow" mode
00:30:42 <shachaf> Ha! Those people on the stack overflow!
00:30:48 <lambdabot> No quotes match. There are some things that I just don't know.
00:30:52 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Are you on drugs?
00:30:54 <lambdabot> No quotes match. And you call yourself a Rocket Scientist!
00:30:55 <lambdabot> No quotes match. My brain just exploded
00:30:56 <lambdabot> kmc says: on December 21, 2012 A.D., Jesus Christ himself will return to Earth and make the final commit on GHC
00:31:04 <shachaf> I think lambdabot's database got wiped. :-(
00:31:07 <elliott> @forget kmc on December 21, 2012 A.D., Jesus Christ himself will return to Earth and make the final commit on GHC
00:31:29 <oerjan> shachaf: nah it's probably just elliott
00:31:48 <shachaf> oerjan: No, I think it did.
00:31:57 <shachaf> ALl my good quotes got wiped and now lambdabot only has bad quotes by me. :-(
00:32:33 <zzo38> shachaf: Then retype the good one
00:33:00 <shachaf> I had some good quotes, and some other quotes too that were written by me (and some other people too)
00:33:12 <shachaf> elliott: I'm no good at that.
00:33:14 <lambdabot> shachaf says: <djahandarie> Group projects are stupid <shachaf> Try a semigroup project sometime. You need to lose your identity.
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00:41:07 <zzo38> Is it permitted to take a shorthand writing paper into a live theatre or movie theatre?
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00:47:02 <ion> I want to film film from back of cinema.
00:55:07 <ion> http://youtu.be/67p4QihDO9c
00:55:44 <ion> Warning: don’t begin clicking on other Fonejacker clips in the related videos. You’ll lose the whole night.
00:56:08 <elliott> "This video contains content from Base79 TV (Base79/2) and Channel 4, one or more of whom have blocked it in your country on copyright grounds."
00:58:01 <ion> ಠ_ಠ and they’ve not blocked it in Finland?
00:58:29 <elliott> ion: IIRC there's good reason it's usually blocked in the country of origin and nowhere else.
00:58:39 <elliott> I forget what that reason is, though.
01:00:16 <ion> How about this copy? http://youtu.be/8No35aomeok
01:09:45 <ion> How about this copy? http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2j5vx_fonejacker-you-want-buy-dvd_fun
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01:52:57 <elliott> kmc: If you enjoyed our product "Believing everything you read on Hacker News", why not try "Believing everything you read in the Weekly World News"?
01:58:35 <elliott> Man, reading this HN thread, I think the "nobody is ever good enough to write crypto ever and unless you're using crypto code handed down by God himself on stone tablets, you are already hacked" crap has done more overall harm than incompetent crypto istelf.
01:59:43 <elliott> "What I find especially interesting is how they explicitly decided to design the site like a startup's. I always think it's cool when philanthropy learns from commercial enterprises."
02:01:03 <elliott> "Seems pretty clear they’re breaking with the crappy, poorly designed webpages open source software—especially anything having to do with networking or security—often have.
02:01:03 <elliott> These guys understand: how something is presented matters too; not just how well the code works."
02:01:12 <elliott> i heard kmc reference this but i had no idea
02:01:32 <kmc> thank god our hipster startup aesthetic has finally reached those tragically un-cool academics
02:01:38 <kmc> I don't think they realize that we're deliberately making fun of them
02:01:52 <elliott> I really hate twitter bootstrap because I can tell without fail whenever anything is using it
02:01:56 <elliott> it's like Blueprint was a few years ago
02:03:04 <zzo38> In the idle time for WHOIS, what things are counted? For example, do NOTICE messages count?
02:04:00 <zzo38> myndzi sent me a NOTICE message, and it seem not count.
02:04:15 <elliott> kmc: is there a way to artificially slow my connection down, i wanna see mosh's prediction :'(
02:04:43 <myndzi> nope, and whois neither
02:04:52 <kmc> elliott, run mosh-server in valgrind
02:05:00 <zzo38> myndzi: That didn't count either; the idle time increased
02:05:15 <elliott> kmc: you think I'm installing valgrind on solidity?
02:05:15 <kmc> also http://www.linuxfoundation.org/collaborate/workgroups/networking/netem
02:05:24 <elliott> maybe I can bounce the connection a bit
02:05:29 <elliott> ssh solidity ssh dinky ssh solidity ssh dinky ssh solidity ssh dinky ssh solidity ssh dinky ssh solidity ssh dinky ...
02:05:51 <zzo38> I think it is useful that NOTICE messages don't count
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02:06:13 <myndzi> probably to do with the nature of privmsg/notice
02:06:32 <myndzi> notice is generally for responding to privmsg to avoid loops, at least with ctcp
02:06:38 <myndzi> but i'm sure the server protocol existed before ctcp
02:06:55 <zzo38> elliott: Doesn't the program "ettercap" have a feature to slow down the internet? (I think I read something about this in 2600)
02:07:23 <elliott> I like how http://esolangs.org/wiki/Timeline_of_esoteric_programming_languages stops at 2005
02:07:27 <elliott> (Okay, modulo the future.)
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02:17:19 <elliott> Great, #haskell is explaining monads again.
02:22:07 <Sgeo> channel.me is great
02:23:05 <kmc> elliott, are they also inside-joking?
02:23:29 <kmc> i mean saying "#haskell is explaining monads again" is like saying "it's cool and slightly foggy in san francisco"
02:23:51 <elliott> kmc: No, they weren't. I managed to rescue the poor guy, though :P
02:24:09 <elliott> It wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't so quadraphonic.
02:25:15 <elliott> kmc: Anyway, I thought California was hot all the time.
02:25:38 <kmc> i've heard that california is actually a very large state with a range of climates
02:26:20 <elliott> I refuse to devote 50 times the memory space to the USA than I would to any other country.
02:26:28 <elliott> Therefore California is just hot all the time.
02:26:40 <kmc> it is pretty funny to see confused tourists in SF shivering in a t-shirt and shorts
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03:06:46 <elliott> kmc: HELP I CAN'T STOP MYSELF MAKING SNARKY C++ COMMENTS
03:08:10 <elliott> I saw what happened to monqy.
03:09:20 <Sgeo> hi is the worst drug
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03:17:07 <kmc> debugging a C++ type mismatch error using git diff --word-diff on logs
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05:41:21 <zzo38> Please tell me what your idea of this type system I have idea of (for Ibtlfmm, not for Haskell; but similar). I will describe some of its features so that you can complain about it properly.
05:41:29 <zzo38> One thing is the kind (*(x) -> {x} -> *) meaning a type taking two parameters, the first is an ordinary type and the second is a value of that type in braces. (For example if the type having this kind is called X then the type (X Int8 {15}) is of kind *)
05:41:50 <zzo38> A more complicated example is (*(x) -> *(Class1 x y => y) -> {Succ y} -> *) (note: where Succ is the equivalent of Haskell's Maybe)
05:43:06 <zzo38> And then there are still the other built-in kinds + @ & and so on, and the user-defined datakinds
05:58:51 <augur> any innovative paradigms invented recently?
05:59:24 <zzo38> augur: I don't know.
06:02:43 <monqy> how recently is recently and how innovative is innovative
06:02:46 <monqy> what is a paradigm
06:03:08 <monqy> and how are they invented
06:08:07 <olsner> augur: you should invent innovative programming
06:08:48 * itidus20 . o O ( recently is 50 years. innovative is that you could write a whole book about the new paradigm. i'm not sure what a paradigm is, ergo not sure how they are invented )
06:21:45 <shachaf> monqy: Don't you want to party?
06:21:56 <shachaf> tonight is party night, and the party is a hi party
06:23:24 <shachaf> monqy: You can quit hi any time. But when can you go to a hi party?
06:23:43 <shachaf> It's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.
06:23:53 <zzo38> When are you going to go to a lo party?
06:24:46 <zzo38> What is your opinion of type system idea I have written?
06:24:49 <monqy> what'ts a hi party jk i know what a i had enough hi party last night
06:25:03 <monqy> qwoops i misdeleted my tetxt
06:25:41 <shachaf> what would your own mother think of you
06:25:52 <shachaf> she would probably think "hi monqy" and you wouldn't think "hi" back
06:26:23 <monqy> she'd never think "hi monqy"; she dsoesn't know im monqy
06:30:23 <shachaf> monqy woulld she thinkt "hi william"
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07:23:43 <Ngevd> What's happening in THE WORLD OF ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING!?
07:24:54 <HackEgo> Ngevd: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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07:31:19 <itidus20> I am in stage 3 of Brainfuck Island stomping on corrupt mushrooms.
07:40:27 <Sgeo> Brainfuck Island?
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07:49:47 <itidus20> in other words it is Brainfuck Island in name alone..
07:52:09 <kmc> i don't remember them using the word "fuck" in mario
07:53:28 <itidus20> yeah even wario wouldn't say that. i wouldn't put it past waruigi though
07:53:34 <Ngevd> This is a crossover with Call of Duty: Modern Warfare
07:57:04 <kmc> obligatory http://plumberplace.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/image_70.jpg
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08:06:12 <qfr> kmc that looks scary
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11:05:25 <Ngevd> This seems the best place to ask this
11:05:38 <Ngevd> I'm having some trouble installing a driver on Windows 98
11:07:01 <Ngevd> "The SETUPASSISSTANT.EXE fuke is linked to missing export KERNEL32.DLL:GetUserDefaultUILanguage." is the error I get when I try to run the setup application
11:07:57 <Ngevd> Any advice or referrals?
11:09:18 <Ngevd> I just want it to be useful
11:09:47 <RocketJSquirrel> The fact that it's Windows precludes that possibility already.
11:10:12 <Ngevd> It's looking at me, with those big, sad eyes.
11:10:21 <Ngevd> Saying, "I want to be useful"
11:10:26 <Ngevd> "Please make me useful"
11:10:34 <Ngevd> "Like I was all those years ago"
11:11:28 <Ngevd> It doens't know that!
11:11:47 <RocketJSquirrel> No, it doesn't, but I don't have to hush. It is too stupid to understand.
11:12:19 <Ngevd> Well, I'm rampantly anthropomorphizing, but still.
11:12:39 <Ngevd> I can't make it boot from CD, so it's either this or have a hefty box to get rid of
11:14:47 <Ngevd> It has a floppy drive, but it's the only device I own with one
11:14:52 <Ngevd> And no wired network
11:15:14 <Ngevd> It has a DSL port, but is way too far from a DSL cable
11:16:13 <Ngevd> An idea I have just had!
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11:44:24 <itidus20> i don't even have a freaking clue what the difference is but i just know SE is better!
11:53:34 <RocketJSquirrel> "Isabella" is the most popular name for female newborns in the US.
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14:02:27 <Ngevd> I have arrived in an alternate universe where I own a copy of Rome: Total War
14:05:33 <ais523> are you planning to play it?
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14:08:05 <RocketJSquirrel> Sometimes just being in the right universe is enough, y'know.
14:08:47 <itidus20> he would if his net connection started working
14:12:30 <ais523> why would it require a network connection? it's a singleplayer game
14:12:47 <ais523> and I'm reasonably sure I've played it on a non-internet-connected machine
14:13:43 <itidus20> if anything, his flailing connection might motivate him to play it
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16:27:05 <elliott> @John L: Can you give an example where STM will avoid extra work that can not be avoided using IORefs? – Clinton 17 mins ago
16:27:14 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: This guy CANNOT BE STOPPED
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16:40:45 <elliott> kmc: that "replacement for SSH" wording + "uses SSH for login" is really confusing people
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17:06:17 <qfr> Have any of you ever taken a look at F#, by the way?
17:06:28 <qfr> I must admit I only glanced at it once
17:06:31 <qfr> When I was learning Haskell
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17:07:00 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Not true.
17:07:31 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: It's the only way you can make OCaml's standard library worse.
17:09:05 <qfr> Aw, I love C# <3
17:10:09 <elliott> qfr: Is "<3" a new-fangled sarcasm mark?
17:11:22 <qfr> No, it is supposed to depict the bubbly behind of a woman
17:11:36 <qfr> But I do love C#, I wasn't being sarcastic
17:12:12 <qfr> Well, there actually are some theories that the heart symbol is derived from that
17:12:18 <qfr> Others say it's from that plant
17:12:23 <qfr> It's not entirely clear
17:12:30 <elliott> No, I'm talking about <qfr> But I do love C#, I wasn't being sarcastic
17:13:19 <qfr> :\ do you still think I was being sarcastic? I have grown very fond of C# recently
17:13:29 <qfr> I used to be opposed to it because I thought its portability sucked
17:13:34 <elliott> I think it's literally impossible for anyone to like C# non-ironically.
17:13:36 <qfr> lol I live in Karlsruhe
17:13:43 <elliott> I mean, unless your point of comparison is Java.
17:13:51 <elliott> Okay, the lambdas and LINQ stuff are nice too.
17:14:38 <qfr> I ran more tests with Mono on my Linux servers and it worked quite flawlessly for the most part
17:14:52 <qfr> I was surprised by how you could just feed it any Visual Studio compiled binary
17:15:21 <qfr> So I ended up changing my mind and I've been quite productive this past month
17:16:09 <qfr> And now I'm maintaining a C# open source project that actually has a considerable share of MacOS and Linux users
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17:18:45 <RocketJSquirrel> Other than the fact that it's a fairly dreary language (i.e. it's just not that interesting), my fear is that Microsoft are basically a bunch of dicks, and so will become sue-happy eventually.
17:18:59 <RocketJSquirrel> See for example: Oracle vs Google "lol Java runs everywhere except when we decide to sue you" debacle.
17:19:33 <elliott> I have to give them credit for the LINQ stuff, but only because they stole it from Haskell.
17:20:50 <RocketJSquirrel> I'm living a very happy and successful life without the tongue face smiley.
17:21:03 * elliott has mastered the art of using "lol" sparingly.
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17:22:39 <qfr> [19:19:00] <RocketJSquirrel> See for example: Oracle vs Google "lol Java runs everywhere except when we decide to sue you" debacle.
17:22:43 <qfr> Oh? I'm not familiar with this case
17:22:49 <qfr> Care to elaborate?
17:23:11 <qfr> As for the Microsoft vs. Mono thing, I thought they were on amicable things now
17:23:14 <qfr> At least pre-Xamarin
17:23:44 <qfr> Err, amicable *terms
17:23:48 <RocketJSquirrel> qfr: Oracle sued (is still in the endless process of suing) Google over vague Java-related patent infringement in Android.
17:24:02 <qfr> Oh, I totally missed that
17:24:08 <RocketJSquirrel> Or, put differently, "you implemented our language intended to be implemented everywhere, so we're suing you"
17:24:20 <elliott> (On the basis of "as there's only one way to implement these really trivial methods, you clearly stole them from us")
17:24:31 <qfr> Because they supposedly implemented some proprietary JVM technology?
17:24:33 <RocketJSquirrel> I certainly don't believe Microsoft is above such things, and I even more certainly don't believe that their current relationship with Mono has any relevance whatsoever.
17:24:48 <RocketJSquirrel> qfr: The exact details are (naturally) fuzzy, but that's the gist.
17:25:09 <elliott> qfr: Because they supposedly copied code from the standard library.
17:25:16 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: "intended to be implemented everywhere" <-- you forgot "by us"
17:26:00 <RocketJSquirrel> Which means it's far more insidious. And squirrely. And flat-out evil.
17:26:11 <elliott> Well, you'd know about that second-last one.
17:26:52 <olsner> it's funny because he has SQUIRREL in his nick name!
17:27:02 <qfr> On what legal basis could Microsoft leash out against Mono?
17:28:27 <qfr> "The C# language definition and the CLI are standardized under ISO and Ecma standards that provide reasonable and non-discriminatory licensing protection from patent claims. However, Microsoft uses C# and the CLI in its Base Class Library (BCL) that is the foundation of its proprietary .NET framework, and which provides a variety of non-standardized classes (extended I/O, GUI, Web services, etc.).
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17:28:43 <elliott> There's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mono_(software)#Mono_and_Microsoft.27s_patents.
17:28:50 <elliott> But they have agreements with Novell making such action unlikely, I believe.
17:29:25 <elliott> The Mono-will-be-destroyed-by-MS-patents people tend to be conspiracy theorists.
17:29:36 <elliott> What was that blog again...
17:29:52 <qfr> "The concerns primarily relate to technologies developed by Microsoft on top of the .NET Framework, such as ASP.NET, ADO.NET and Windows Forms (see non-standardized namespaces), i.e. parts composing Mono’s Windows compatibility stack."
17:30:01 <qfr> Ah, that doesn't sound like an issue
17:30:05 <qfr> Who cares about those!
17:30:14 <qfr> I actually know some Mono ASP.NET developer
17:30:22 <elliott> Dammit, where is that insane blog :P
17:30:46 <KingOfKarlsruhe> it is also possible to run mono on android, i think you cannot do that with haskell!
17:30:56 <qfr> I think you can
17:31:08 <elliott> GHC has a working iPhone port.
17:31:09 <qfr> KingOfKarlsruhe doesn't Android pretty much enable you to run arbitrary binaries?
17:31:12 <elliott> The Android port mostly works too, as I understand it.
17:31:16 <elliott> GHCi doesn't run on ARM yet, though.
17:31:18 <qfr> yeah, sounds like it
17:31:29 <elliott> Of course, the bindings to the Java GUI libraries aren't there yet.
17:31:31 <qfr> Does GHC have an AMD64 version for Windows yet?
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17:31:35 <elliott> But there's no inherent obstacle.
17:31:38 <qfr> Back when I was doing Haskell it didn't
17:32:43 <qfr> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/1884
17:32:46 <qfr> Opened 4 years ago
17:32:55 <qfr> Oh, I remember igloo
17:33:00 <qfr> I think I talked to him on freenode
17:33:19 <qfr> "A working mingw64 port, which doesn't exist yet." ohhh
17:33:22 <qfr> I totally forgot about this
17:33:58 <olsner> But "The 64-bit mingw probably works now", said spj 2 years ago
17:34:41 <olsner> the primary obstacle for things like that is always finding someone who cares enough to do it
17:35:04 <qfr> Yeah, I actually talked to devs about this
17:35:09 <qfr> They said it's quite an adventure to do this
17:35:52 <qfr> And involves a complicated multi-stage bootstrapping process where components are partially translated with an existing GHC on another platform to generate C out of that
17:36:10 <qfr> And then it's compiled using a C compiler for the target platform
17:36:22 <qfr> Or something like that
17:36:26 <qfr> It sounded like a nightmare anyways
17:41:30 <qfr> They will gladly port GHC to random phone XYZ
17:41:30 <RocketJSquirrel> Well, modulo the fact that it's Windows-related, and thus does not work by definition.
17:41:42 <qfr> But for Windows... no interest!
17:41:58 <elliott> 64-bit Windows is kiiiind of a niche market.
17:44:47 <elliott> Aha, I think this is the insane anti-Mono site: http://techrights.org/?stories
17:46:34 <RocketJSquirrel> D is a language so good it made me leave it and learn to love C again.
17:47:01 * elliott wonders if Esolang should really be linking to a site that contains things like http://detain.me/tools/aimspem.php.
17:47:13 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Anyway, why'd you bring up D :P
17:48:45 <RocketJSquirrel> I know the pronunciation is C♯, but then Apple pronounces 'X' as "ten" so *eh*
17:50:50 <qfr> I wish elliott would stop appending dots to URLs
17:51:11 <qfr> Requires me to manually copy URLs to open them :'(
17:51:35 <qfr> [19:49:18] <RocketJSquirrel> (As opposed to "decem", PEDANTS)
17:51:40 <elliott> qfr: Appending dots where?
17:51:46 <olsner> qfr: you have to finish the sentence with a dot, and spurious whitespace makes you look stupid
17:51:47 <qfr> Well, most of them would fail to pronounce that properly, too
17:51:58 <elliott> olsner: I like how that sentence didn't end with a dot.
17:52:10 <olsner> oh, I mean... "stupid ."
17:52:54 <olsner> oh well, I don't speak in sentences anyway, I speak in lines
17:53:20 <qfr> The classical Latin DECEM was probably pronounced [dE"ke~]
17:53:43 <qfr> Most would probably erroneously pronounce it with an [m], heh
17:55:54 <qfr> Woops, the second vowel should be long, I think
17:56:04 <qfr> [dE"ke:~], there
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18:04:42 <RocketJSquirrel> I always add spurious whitespace when there's a URL or email address at the end of a sentence.
18:04:54 <RocketJSquirrel> In fact, it's not even spurious whitespace, it's only grammatically spurious.
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18:10:54 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: It's ugly :(
18:11:21 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: In your last line, you used ":(" as your punctuation, and had a space before it.
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18:20:16 <elliott> DevHC_ is such a huge raging asshole jesus christ
18:32:25 <shachaf> elliott: I think you just don't appreciate the expressiveness.
18:32:45 <elliott> shachaf: I like how dmwit told me to stop and not DevHC. :(
18:32:52 <elliott> @sclv is right; Haskell typeclasses are much closer to OOP interfaces than OOP classes, but even that analogy isn't perfect. In fact, the closest thing to OOP classes in Haskell are simply data types containing functions and monadic actions. – ehird 15 mins ago
18:32:52 <elliott> @ehird Not really. – Marcin 13 mins ago
18:33:24 <shachaf> elliott: Did you know geekosaur == allbery_b?
18:33:53 <elliott> shachaf: I keep realising that and then forgetting it later.
18:34:31 <elliott> Anyone who says the exact same things as me for like five minutes gets on my Good Person List, though.
18:34:42 <elliott> Cue shachaf copying my lines verbatim for the next five minutes.
18:35:22 <shachaf> elliott: I've already said the exact same things as you for five minutes.
18:35:49 <shachaf> But I'm pretty sure anyone "shachaf" `isInfixOf` whose nick gets off your Good Person List.
18:35:49 <monqy> I almost said hi shachaf what is wrong with me
18:36:29 <shachaf> Everyone wants to say hi shachaf once in a while.
18:36:46 <elliott> shachaf: Are you referring to five-minute periods of silence?
18:37:07 <shachaf> elliott: Also to the times when we were both saying sense to someone in #haskell who was saying non-.
18:37:16 <shachaf> Those were the times, man.
18:38:02 <elliott> accepts answer -> 10 minutes pass -> "I think I need to digest this some more :) – Peter Hall 4 secs ago" -> de-accepts answer
18:38:03 <qfr> How come there are seemingly so many people who talk about Haskell but no high profile projects other than maybe GHC itself?
18:38:15 <elliott> qfr: Because that's a stupid lie.
18:38:33 <monqy> because haskell isn't practical
18:38:38 <elliott> There's xmonad and darcs, for one. And Yesod, Snap, Happstack.
18:38:48 <elliott> (If you think libraries can't count as buzz, cf. Ruby, Rails.)
18:38:53 <qfr> Oh yeah I know all of those actually
18:38:56 <qfr> I used Yesod and Snap
18:39:01 <qfr> I just didn't consider them high profile honestly
18:39:13 <shachaf> elliott: Google now autocapitalizes letters at the beginning of a search.
18:39:15 <qfr> I think xmonad is the highest profile one out of those
18:39:23 <elliott> Well, how many famous Ruby things can you name off the top of your head, if you're not paying attention to the Ruby community?
18:39:30 <elliott> s/Ruby/pretty much any language/
18:39:31 <shachaf> elliott: Not always, but if you have an existing Google search and press Esc and then type something new...
18:39:41 <qfr> I think I know two or three people who use it
18:39:42 <elliott> Haskell gets most of its use in internal corporate junk, I think.
18:39:43 <monqy> dbelange: I don't use a window manager, so I would know
18:39:45 <qfr> That's evidence enough for me
18:39:52 <shachaf> elliott: TWITTER = THE FUTURE
18:40:10 <qfr> elliott Rails, Github?
18:40:23 <qfr> I must admit I'm not good with this though
18:40:25 <elliott> qfr: Okay, that's two. Twitter also counts.
18:40:44 <qfr> Because I don't really know what most of them use
18:40:45 <elliott> Since we have 6 for Haskell, that doesn't seem bad, considering Haskell is rather less popular (at least on the internet) than Ruby.
18:40:52 <elliott> (I can think of like 5 more for Ruby, though.)
18:40:56 <qfr> It was just recently that I discovered about the history of Reddit, for example
18:40:59 <qfr> Common Lisp -> Python
18:41:07 <qfr> I think Facebook is PHP + MySQL :\
18:41:09 <shachaf> elliott: http://rubyonrails.org/applications
18:41:34 <qfr> lol I don't know any of those
18:41:35 <shachaf> (Did I ever mention how Ruby === Rails.)
18:41:36 <qfr> Except for Github
18:41:41 <elliott> qfr: Funny you should mention that, because Facebook use Haskell.
18:41:47 <elliott> They also have a PHP compiler thing in Haskell
18:42:02 <shachaf> elliott: Their PHP-to-C++ compiler isn't in Haskell...
18:42:08 <qfr> shachaf haha, every time I say I did something in Ruby I add "(not Rails)"
18:42:09 <Sgeo> elliott, they use Erlang for the chat, right?
18:42:11 <elliott> shachaf: Maybe I mean their virtual machine or something.
18:42:19 <Sgeo> Do they use CL or Scheme for anything?
18:42:19 <elliott> They have multiple PHP things in Haskell.
18:42:26 <shachaf> elliott: I don't think there's anything.
18:42:49 <shachaf> They have one PHP thing in Haskell. Which they probably don't even use anymore.
18:43:06 <elliott> I swear it was two. But okay.
18:43:14 <elliott> "Facebook uses some Haskell internally for tools. lex-pass is a tool for programmatically manipulating a PHP code base via Haskell."
18:43:26 <elliott> "Large, bloated Javascript framework with an unintuitive, verbose syntax and very few features. Browsing its inelegant, poorly written source is an unwelcome experience." -- description of Facebook project
18:43:28 <qfr> shachaf yeah
18:43:48 <qfr> I thought the Facebook frontend was pretty much fully written in plain PHP
18:43:52 <qfr> No idea about the backend
18:44:10 <qfr> It's surprising enough that they still use MySQL
18:44:26 <qfr> I think it's the only big site I know that uses it
18:44:44 <qfr> I think Reddit used Postgres
18:46:02 <monqy> shachaf is that a poem
18:46:10 <shachaf> qfr: Google AdWords uses it...
18:47:36 <monqy> i have expunged my poem sense, none remains
18:47:49 <qfr> Oh yeah, Wikipedia is the second big fish with MySQL under the hood
18:48:13 <shachaf> AdWords is kind of a big fish.
18:52:23 <qfr> They don't support any other DBMS afaik
18:52:47 <qfr> It's the traditional horror of PHP and MySQL
18:53:31 <elliott> qfr: You're just pulling that out of your ass, right?
18:53:56 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: MediaWiki supports MySQL, PostgreSQL, Oracle, SQLite, and IBM DB2.
18:54:05 <qfr> Close enough!
18:54:09 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: MySQL has the best support, followed by either PostgreSQL or SQLite, I forget which.
18:54:12 <elliott> The other two are experimental.
18:58:43 <elliott> shachaf: How do I make ssh-agent only ask me for my password on the first ssh login?
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19:24:20 <elliott> shachaf: Is there a faster way of getting (n .&. 255, n `unsafeShiftR` 8)?
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19:29:04 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraint:
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19:41:59 <elliott> Deewiant: Is there a faster way of getting (n .&. 255, n `unsafeShiftR` 8)? :(
19:43:37 <Deewiant> If it compiles to a mov and a shift then no :-P
19:44:24 <Deewiant> Maybe fromIntegral is faster than the .&., if you're storing it in a Int8/Word8
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19:48:04 <elliott> Deewiant: I could separate that fast path out
19:49:39 <elliott> reifyIntPtr :: IntPtr -> (forall s. ReifiesIntPtr s => Proxy s -> r) -> r
19:49:39 <elliott> #define GO(n) reifyIntPtr n k = k (Proxy :: Proxy CAT(T,n));
19:49:40 <elliott> reifyIntPtr (p .&. 255) (\a ->
19:49:42 <elliott> reifyIntPtr (p `unsafeShiftR` 8) (\b ->
19:49:48 <elliott> reifyIntPtr :: IntPtr -> (forall s. ReifiesIntPtr s => Proxy s -> r) -> r
19:49:52 <elliott> | p < 256 = reifyByte (fromIntegral p) k
19:49:56 <elliott> reifyByte (fromIntegral p) (\a ->
19:49:58 <elliott> reifyIntPtr (p `unsafeShiftR` 8) (\b ->
19:50:04 <elliott> reifyByte :: Word8 -> (forall s. ReifiesIntPtr s => Proxy s -> r) -> r;
19:50:06 <elliott> #define GO(n) reifyByte n k = k (Proxy :: Proxy CAT(T,n));
19:50:12 <elliott> reifyByte _ _ = undefined;
19:50:16 <elliott> But I dunno if that'd do anything
19:50:49 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/users/1097181/ehird?tab=reputation YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
19:52:06 <elliott> oerjan: Take that, team Trondheim!
19:54:02 <elliott> THAT'S 20,000 LESS THAN ME
19:54:13 <elliott> Damn, now I really want to lose 1 rep.
19:54:18 <elliott> And keep it like that. Forever
20:01:24 <qfr> My Stackoverflow history is shameful
20:01:56 <qfr> I'm at 11 and my profile even contains questions about HTML
20:02:15 <oerjan> elliott: "That's mitigated by laziness (only the parts of the tree you actually look at get constructed), "
20:02:21 * elliott just does all Haskell all the time.
20:02:24 <oerjan> istr Map is spine strict
20:02:39 <elliott> oerjan: Remind me to edit that later.
20:02:58 <oerjan> @tell elliott Edit "That's mitigated by laziness (only the parts of the tree you actually look at get constructed), "
20:03:13 <elliott> BTW, can someone figure out whether http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Tiny&curid=1810&diff=31902&oldid=30619 is valid and make the necessary adjustment :P
20:03:33 <elliott> case eqWord# a1_a2zI (__word 0) of _ {
20:03:33 <elliott> case eqWord# a1_a2zI (__word 1) of _ {
20:03:33 <elliott> case eqWord# a1_a2zI (__word 2) of _ {
20:03:36 <elliott> case eqWord# a1_a2zI (__word 3) of _ {
20:03:40 <elliott> case eqWord# a1_a2zI (__word 4) of _ {
20:03:44 <elliott> case eqWord# a1_a2zI (__word 5) of _ {
20:03:48 <elliott> case eqWord# a1_a2zI (__word 6) of _ {
20:04:37 <qfr> Is this really necessary?
20:04:47 <olsner> so, how far does it go?
20:04:59 <oerjan> @tell elliott_ Edit "That's mitigated by laziness (only the parts of the tree you actually look at get constructed), "
20:05:05 <elliott> It ends up at one word per line.
20:05:07 <elliott> oerjan: I don't use that nick :'(
20:06:00 <oerjan> elliott: well it should be late enough then :P
20:06:09 -!- Loupca has joined.
20:06:25 <HackEgo> Loupca: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
20:06:26 <elliott> would hate to give the impression i'm personally welcoming someone, naturally
20:06:53 <oerjan> your reputation is _ruined_
20:08:01 <nortti> why is it no longer "hub of witchcraft and occultism"?
20:08:14 <oerjan> nortti: because April 1 passed, hth
20:08:28 <olsner> nortti: you might be looking for #esoteric on dalnet
20:08:38 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
20:09:52 <elliott> STOP SAYING "S00N" AAAARGH
20:10:01 <elliott> Wait, there's someone new here.
20:10:11 * elliott resolves to make marginally more sense for the next 10 minutes.
20:10:56 <elliott> I wonder what http://sprunge.us/MbYN is.
20:11:49 <olsner> elliott: looks like an absentError
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20:26:13 <qfr> Oh, I just realised, I've never actually investigated what kind of SQL interfaces the Haskell people came up with
20:26:26 <qfr> I imagine it's like a more sophisticated version of Linq
20:29:02 <elliott> Monad comprehensions are new and monasd don'ta llow the kind of introspection you need to do something like that nicely
20:30:23 <qfr> So they've been using raw SQL strings?
20:30:26 <qfr> I am very disapointed
20:30:34 <qfr> I was expecting some overengineered solution
20:30:47 <qfr> Which allows overly condensed expressions
20:30:57 <qfr> In native Haskell syntax without any strings at all
20:31:29 <elliott> Well, not universally, at least.
20:33:13 <RocketJSquirrel> Why are computery people so opposed to capitalization, I wonder.
20:33:34 <nortti> what is so special about haskell compared to scheme for example?
20:33:34 <RocketJSquirrel> Is it a backlash from THE DAYS OF COBOL WHEN EVERYTHING HAD TO BE ALL CAPS?
20:33:52 <qfr> RocketJSquirrel how are they opposed to capitalisation?
20:34:03 <qfr> Look at us, we are computery people and we capitalise properly!
20:34:15 <RocketJSquirrel> qfr: Consider for example names of 99% of projects in the F/OSS world.
20:34:15 <qfr> My choice in names is atypical
20:34:25 <qfr> Usually I capitalise full nick names
20:34:41 <qfr> This, however, is a cryptic short string from a Semitic root
20:34:49 <RocketJSquirrel> qfr: Then look beyond yourself, look at all the nicks on this channel. Me and my bots account for nearly every capitalized nick.
20:34:49 <qfr> Which I chose when I stopped using centralised names on the internet
20:34:58 <qfr> I now use about 30 different names, one for each service
20:35:35 <qfr> Currently I use 4 two or three letter nicks on IRC
20:35:41 <qfr> All of which are lower case
20:35:45 <qfr> And one longer upper case nick
20:35:57 <qfr> I mean, initial capital
20:36:04 <qfr> Not all caps
20:38:27 <RocketJSquirrel> So aaaaaaaaaaanyway. My point still stands, that in general computer folks eschew capitalization. Even if they capitalize sentences properly, proper names are rarely capitalized, and sometimes defiantly decapitalized even when sentence-initial.
20:39:44 <qfr> I started switching to UpperCamelCase in my project names when I switched to C#
20:39:57 <qfr> My Ruby projects mostly-used-this-notation
20:40:07 <qfr> In my C++ days I was using this_notation
20:40:20 <qfr> For both names in the code and project names
20:41:23 <oerjan> RocketJSquirrel: for a start, the irc nick in irssi is by default the same as the username, which historically did not work well with upper case in it (i think using upper case for the username triggered a caps-only terminal mode?)
20:43:08 <RocketJSquirrel> oerjan: And most of those who don't use irssi or choose not to use the default nick will still choose an all-lower name. You're shaving a tiny corner off of a more fundamental issue.
20:43:33 <oerjan> RocketJSquirrel: it may be entrenched tradition, is what i'm saying
20:43:50 <elliott> Anyway, I would guess that the Unix days, or just before that, is when it came about.
20:43:59 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Remember that there wasn't an upper/lowercase distinction for quite a while.
20:44:10 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: Yes, but when there wasn't, EVERYTHING WAS UPPER CASE.
20:44:22 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Yes, but once you get case distinction, with your entrenched single-case habits, do you call yourself KEN or ken?
20:44:24 <RocketJSquirrel> <RocketJSquirrel> Is it a backlash from THE DAYS OF COBOL WHEN EVERYTHING HAD TO BE ALL CAPS?
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20:46:33 <Ngevd> Team Hexham exists
20:47:00 <Ngevd> Also, our dear friend NSXQ seems to have forgotten the existence of talk pages
20:49:14 <elliott> For a start, his IP isn't in the 200s any more.
20:49:17 <elliott> For a start, it was never that :)
20:51:22 <Ngevd> Also, what's the context to team hexham?
20:52:01 <Ngevd> All the Courant has is "War declared on pigeons"
20:52:09 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/users/1097181/ehird?tab=reputation
20:52:35 <Ngevd> Well, I haven't upvoted you since you got passed 20
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20:53:23 <KingOfKarlsruhe> why does everybody knows haskell in this channel? should i really lean it?
20:53:42 <Ngevd> It's a nice language that I enjoy using
20:53:46 <elliott> Not everyone does! Just the most active people :P
20:53:56 <Ngevd> But everyone is different, so you may not enjoy it
20:54:02 <elliott> (If you do decide to learn it, http://learnyouahaskell.com/ is probably the best way.)
20:54:42 <Ngevd> It's a quirky language, when compared to the vast majority of languages
20:54:50 <Ngevd> Even other functional ones
20:55:05 <oerjan> > nubBy(((>1).).gcd)[2..]
20:55:06 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101...
20:55:42 <Ngevd> oerjan, is that...
20:55:49 <Ngevd> is that an infinite list of all the primes?
20:56:00 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
20:56:23 <Ngevd> The assassins of C++ have killed him
20:56:49 <qfr> [22:53:24] <KingOfKarlsruhe> why does everybody knows haskell in this channel? should i really lean it?
20:56:51 <qfr> No, don't bother
20:57:05 <qfr> KingOfKarlsruhe you still haven't reacted to me mentioning that I live in Karlsruhe, by the way
20:57:21 <Ngevd> Karlsruhe: the new Hexham?
20:57:30 <Ngevd> ONLY TIME WILL TELL
20:58:24 <oklofok> looser in tightness of winningness.
20:58:32 <Ngevd> Then surely the superlative would be more appropriate?
20:58:37 <Ngevd> As in, "loosest club"
20:59:34 <Ngevd> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=hexham%2C+karlsruhe%2C+helsinki
20:59:39 <Ngevd> Hexham's still the densest
20:59:48 <qfr> > map (\n -> 2 * n^2 + 11) [0..10]
20:59:50 <lambdabot> [11,13,19,29,43,61,83,109,139,173,211]
21:00:07 <qfr> KingOfKarlsruhe yes, I'm a student
21:00:13 <qfr> It's "loser", by the way
21:00:21 <Ngevd> (unless someone here lives in a town with less than ~6000 people?)
21:01:21 <qfr> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlsruher_SC ah
21:01:24 <shachaf> elliott: I just use ssh-add.
21:01:50 <qfr> KingOfKarlsruhe I have no interest in sports
21:02:11 <shachaf> elliott: "faster" in what sense.
21:02:34 <qfr> Computard science
21:02:39 <qfr> About 7 months to go for my MSc
21:02:44 <shachaf> elliott: I'm going to not read all the scrollbacklog and just assume that you managed to solve it.
21:02:48 <oklofok> it's "computer", by the way
21:02:53 <shachaf> elliott: However, there *is* a way.
21:02:54 <qfr> Could have been done in about 3 months from now but I'm being so lazy right now
21:03:01 <elliott> shachaf: I... sort of did.
21:03:04 <shachaf> I know that because Ubuntu gives you a fancy GUI by default.
21:03:17 <elliott> I thought you were talking about the faster thing.
21:03:22 <elliott> shachaf: That's GNOME's ssh-agent.
21:03:26 <elliott> Which is a different implementation.
21:03:27 <qfr> KingOfKarlsruhe Diplom or BSc/MSc?
21:03:35 <qfr> <- 12th semester
21:04:08 <qfr> I don't know what HSKA is
21:04:11 <qfr> I'm at KIT
21:04:19 <qfr> HSKA = FH?
21:04:23 <oklofok> i've finished my degree but would be my 8th
21:04:44 <KingOfKarlsruhe> University of Applied Sciences http://www.hs-karlsruhe.de/en/home.html
21:04:47 <oklofok> i don't know if that's really appropriate anymore since i don't really take any classes
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21:08:08 <qfr> It takes most people 13 semesters to finsih this degree
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21:08:53 <qfr> I have no incentive to work any harder honestly
21:09:28 <olsner> is that 13 semesters in real time, or 13 semesters of studies?
21:09:28 <qfr> I know somebody who did it in 11
21:09:30 <oklofok> my incentive was to get my degree fast.
21:09:32 <qfr> That's about as low as you can go
21:09:38 <qfr> He got 100% in every exam
21:09:45 <qfr> he's doing his PhD now
21:09:55 <oklofok> well my degree usually takes 12 semesters, and i did it in 6
21:10:26 <olsner> I think I am currently on my 16th semester
21:10:39 <qfr> olsner 13 semesters of real time I think
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21:10:53 <oklofok> i've been told you pretty much cannot get 100% when percentage grading is used
21:11:05 <qfr> They don't use percentage grading
21:11:19 <qfr> It's a variety of bizarre German systems
21:11:19 <oklofok> oh well i have the best possible average too
21:11:23 <qfr> None of which make any sense
21:11:29 <oklofok> but we just have a scale from 1 to 5
21:12:03 <oklofok> but i've gotten a few things wrong on exams
21:12:14 <qfr> I think there is 1, 1.3, 1.7, 2, 2.3, 2.7, 3, 3.3, 3.7, 4.0 and 5.0
21:12:22 <qfr> 1 being the best
21:12:25 <qfr> 5.0 failed
21:12:27 <qfr> It makes no sense
21:12:44 <oklofok> that may be the silliest thing i've ever heard
21:12:48 <olsner> it's a clever ruse to keep people from caring too much about grades
21:12:56 <qfr> But hey, I've never failed an exam and my grades are 1.7 - 2 mostly
21:13:28 <qfr> I'm mostly just hanging out at home
21:13:44 <qfr> Overeating, pursuing my addiction to video games and series
21:13:53 <qfr> Occasionally doing a bit of coding or making music
21:14:02 <qfr> I don't attend of any the lectures honestly
21:14:09 <oklofok> i read that as "doing a bit my cousin"
21:14:12 <qfr> I stopped doing that after one semester
21:14:34 <qfr> I've been pretty much consistently skipping all of them for 4 years
21:14:37 <oklofok> because the grammar was just horrile
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21:15:06 <qfr> And I still believe that I have learned pretty much nothing that is of professional relevance to me, lol
21:15:11 <qfr> But hey, it's better than working
21:15:17 <qfr> And I get money for this, so
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21:15:29 <oklofok> i have to attend lectures nowadays because it's just us 3 ppl giving the course to each other :(
21:15:46 <oklofok> i think they would notice if i skipped it
21:16:19 <oklofok> hi oerjan, what's up and how high?
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21:16:48 <oerjan> the andromeda galaxy, about 2 million light years
21:17:14 <fizzie> (I'm no longer in oerjanland now.)
21:17:22 <fizzie> (Isn't that what it's called?)
21:17:37 <oerjan> how did you escape my devious snow trap
21:17:53 <fizzie> Some other Norwegians helped us to push the car out.
21:18:19 <fizzie> Also two other groups were all "what the what kind of car this is, it doesn't even have the rear hook".
21:18:24 <fizzie> (It was a city kind of car.)
21:18:30 <oklofok> fizzie: how do you know one of them wasn't oerjan?
21:18:39 <fizzie> Well, I don't, really.
21:18:52 <oklofok> well that's a bit suspicious
21:19:37 <fizzie> There were two places called Bø in Lofoten, we were kind of wondering how they disambiguate those. (The road signs to Å said "Å i Lofoten", but that doesn't work for the two Bøs.)
21:20:26 <fizzie> Reasonably, though we did not take photos of the signs.
21:20:33 <fizzie> I guess they could've meant something else.
21:20:46 <fizzie> But they looked very similar to the other signs that were unmistakably place names.
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21:21:02 <fizzie> Also I kept mentally-pronouncing "bobil" like the English "mobile", except with 'b'.
21:21:19 <oklofok> just because they are unmistakable doesn't mean you necessarily unmistake them.
21:21:21 <oerjan> fizzie: note that Vesterålen is _not_ Lofoten, despite being sort of part of the general area
21:21:27 <oklofok> it just means you can unmistake them.
21:21:57 <fizzie> oerjan: Well, it could be something like that. The second Bø was more nearer to the mainland, I suppose.
21:22:15 <fizzie> I mean, it was somewhere between Svolvær and Kiruna (in Sweden), that's about all I know.
21:22:55 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%B8 has rather a lot in Nordland & Troms :P
21:23:19 <fizzie> You sure like your Bøs.
21:23:40 <qfr> I wonder if Mono will ever gain a status like JVM in terms of being targeted by other programming languages
21:24:10 <oerjan> i believe only the Vestvågøy one counts as Lofoten
21:25:17 <fizzie> 1970 kilometres was the whole Kemi-Kiruna-Svolvær-Henningsvær-Uttakleiv-Hamnøy-Reine-Å-Moskenes-Hamnøy-Vikten-Nusfjord-Krystad-Hamnøy-Kiruna-Kemi trip. (Skipped some midway stops there.)
21:25:21 <qfr> Oh yeah true, I just realised those probably already work with Mono
21:25:32 <oerjan> although there _do_ seem to be several in Vesterålen...
21:26:40 <oklofok> well i just meant that trip
21:26:49 <oklofok> not your extracurricular activities
21:27:05 <fizzie> Walking wasn't included in that number, anyway, since it came from the car's distancometer.
21:27:15 <fizzie> The whatsitcalledometer.
21:28:35 <fizzie> oerjan: I zoomed maps.google.com to the general region where we were, and wrote "Bø" in the search field. It showed me the borders of Bolivia.
21:29:12 <fizzie> (I think this whole "show the borders" thing is new-ish.)
21:31:26 <qfr> http://www.reddit.com/r/lolphp/comments/ps6x5/0x0_wat/
21:33:48 <fizzie> Of the views, I kinda liked that one beach most. It kinda had a funny combination of "one of those warm places down south" sand-beach, and then the snow: http://zem.fi/~fis/beach.jpg
21:34:18 <elliott> That's the most Finnish beach ever.
21:34:32 <fizzie> The most Finnish beach in Norway.
21:34:53 <fizzie> We don't have anything as mountainy as those things that come out of the water, really.
21:35:02 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/lolphp/comments/s6kqy/when_references_go_bad/ heh
21:35:06 <qfr> elliott yep
21:35:09 <qfr> That one was disturbing
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21:37:32 <Sgeo> "MintChip misses the point of digital currency"
21:37:52 <Sgeo> Well, if you're a fan of starting your own currency independent of government...
21:38:02 <Sgeo> I'd say the article misses the point of MintChip
21:38:09 <Sgeo> http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2012/04/12/mintchip-misses-the-point-of-digital-currency/
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00:12:36 <elliott> kmc: How come there's so much C++ programmer/Haskell programmer overlap?
00:13:55 <shachaf> Most C++ programmers have probably never heard of Haskell.
00:14:09 <elliott> Well, a lot of Haskellers also do C++, at least.
00:14:21 <shachaf> Well, C++ is a very popular language.
00:14:25 <shachaf> But I don't even know if that is true.
00:15:03 <elliott> Well, a lot of SO people who answer Haskell questions also answer C++ questions? WORK WITH ME HERE
00:15:38 <shachaf> I think SO questions are just karma-crazy.
00:16:07 <shachaf> There are a few strategies for karma: Answer specialized questions like Haskell questions, or answer mainstream questions like C++.
00:16:16 <shachaf> Probably people do some of both.
00:16:46 <elliott> I gather answering C or C++ questions doesn't get you much rep because of the high turnover rate.
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02:15:33 <shachaf> elliott: I heard kmc bought a computer at a BRICK AND MORTAR STORE.
02:15:48 <shachaf> I guess he's neither ESR nor PG.
02:15:58 <shachaf> Unless, wait, was it an Apple store?
02:16:11 <zzo38> What is ESR and PG?
02:16:44 <shachaf> kmc: Is it the new Thinkpad you were waiting for?
02:17:17 <elliott> kmc only starts talking when shachaf talks to him :'(
02:17:24 <kmc> it's a refurb thinkpad for $250
02:17:44 <kmc> cause i had no working laptop at all
02:17:53 <shachaf> What happened to your other working laptop?
02:19:18 <oerjan> elliott: what we need is a shachaf simulator
02:20:08 <elliott> Hmph, I was hoping oerjan would take care of that [[Tiny]] edit.
02:20:21 <oerjan> ...i have no idea what that meant, so no.
02:20:32 <kmc> the X200s has a cracked screen and is now in many pieces as part of a failed attempt to resolve this
02:20:41 <kmc> the old T61 has hella problems but the dealbreaker is that the fan doesn't work anymore
02:20:58 <kmc> so i bought a new refurb T61
02:21:18 <elliott> oerjan: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Tiny&curid=1810&diff=31902&oldid=30619
02:21:32 <kmc> thinking (inter alia) that if things go wrong with it, I can grab parts from the old T61
02:21:38 <kmc> i already cannibalized the RAM
02:21:39 <oerjan> elliott: i didn't say i didn't see it, i said i didn't know what it meant
02:21:49 <shachaf> kmc: I didn't know you could buy ThinkPads in brick-and-mortar stores.
02:21:55 <kmc> yeah, MicroCenter has some
02:22:00 <shachaf> (...I thought the main things they sold was brick and mortar.)
02:22:06 <kmc> HA HA HA HA HA
02:22:21 <kmc> you can also get refurb machines online but I think the advantage is not so great
02:22:40 <kmc> and i wanted this quickly because i am leaving town in less than a week
02:22:40 <shachaf> I bought this laptop refurbished online.
02:22:58 <kmc> i like that, if MicroCenter's refurb laptop turns out to be not so furbished after all, I can return it by walking down the street
02:23:57 <shachaf> Is this the MicroCenter people at BosHac told me to go to?
02:24:05 <kmc> flying to SF, taking the train to LA, riding in a car out to Coachella for the eponymous music festival
02:24:07 <kmc> yes this makes no sense
02:24:22 <kmc> it's a computer store in cambridge (and some other places)
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02:24:54 <shachaf> elliott: Have you ever been to cambridge (and some other places too)?
02:25:07 <kmc> shachaf, has anyone ever been etc
02:25:34 <shachaf> kmc: The part that makes no sense is that you're not going to SF by train.
02:26:22 <kmc> from Boston??
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02:27:50 <kmc> it takes /forever/
02:27:54 <kmc> and would cost more
02:28:24 <shachaf> Flying costs more of your soul.
02:28:34 <kmc> i don't actually mind flying
02:28:51 <kmc> the carbon footprint is not great, but it's still public transit of sorts
02:29:04 <shachaf> Why are you going through SF?
02:29:07 <kmc> everything about flying sucks, except the part where you're actually in the air
02:29:41 <kmc> so it's proportionally better on longer trips
02:29:44 <shachaf> Usually I'm stuck on a chair inside the airplane instead of in the air. :-(
02:29:55 <kmc> HA HA HA HA HA
02:30:23 <shachaf> I think that must be some sort of subtle cue about something...
02:30:23 <kmc> so my friends who live in SF, LA, and SD are going to Coachella
02:30:24 <elliott> Does flying really count as public transport?
02:31:14 <kmc> Coachella is much closer to those cities than to Boston
02:31:51 <kmc> so I needed to buy plane tickets long before I could get any of them to figure out their transpo plans
02:31:57 <kmc> so I reduced to a solved problem
02:32:06 <kmc> by flying to/from where one of my friends would be starting
02:32:14 <kmc> Boston to SF is also a very cheap route
02:32:22 <kmc> per mile anyway
02:32:37 <elliott> Wait, isn't LA on the other side of USillyA to SF?
02:32:44 <elliott> I... don't know much about USillyA geography.
02:32:47 <kmc> LA = Los Angeles, not Louisiana
02:33:00 <elliott> Well, you learn something every day.
02:33:11 <shachaf> SFO->SEA is cheaper than SFO->PDX.
02:33:13 <kmc> and I can be more flexible about dates if I fly to/from SF, because I have places I can stay there
02:33:21 <elliott> I think I was thinking the USA had, like, a left, a right, and a third thing.
02:33:47 <shachaf> That's pretty much how it works.
02:33:49 <kmc> SF is like 600 km north of LA; they're both in California, which is on the west coast
02:34:00 <kmc> California is a big state
02:34:09 <elliott> Yes, I realised that about 15 seconds after I asked.
02:34:32 <shachaf> I've yet to make any sense of the UK.
02:34:39 <kmc> elliott, I would call commercial airlines "public transportation", yes
02:35:09 <kmc> the term does not imply government-affiliated
02:35:41 <elliott> Right, I associated "public transport" with "public" as in state-run.
02:35:45 <kmc> lots of bus and train routes around the world are fully private
02:35:51 <kmc> many others are weird hybrids
02:35:51 <elliott> But then our trains aren't really "state-run" here either.
02:36:13 <elliott> (Oblig. daily thanks to Conservatives for ruining everything.)
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02:36:52 <elliott> I CAN'T DEAL WITH THE PRESSURE OF EVERYBODY THINKING I'M CONAL
02:36:59 <shachaf> The UK has really weird place names.
02:37:05 <elliott> I wonder how many people just never ask and go away with a significantly tarnished view of Conal.
02:37:06 <shachaf> Like New Castle Upon Thyme.
02:37:08 <kmc> in britain they sold off the right to run the trains, and sold off the infrastructure separately, and then kind of gradually bought them back in weird ways
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02:37:48 <kmc> (they = govt)
02:38:10 * elliott appreciates kmc's train wisdom.
02:38:16 <kmc> thanks elliott
02:38:25 <elliott> I was typing that before you said that.
02:38:30 <kmc> you're psychic
02:38:42 <kmc> i knew you would say that
02:38:56 <elliott> Also, 16:40:45: <elliott> kmc: that "replacement for SSH" wording + "uses SSH for login" is really confusing people
02:39:10 <kmc> do you suggest a better way to deal?
02:39:22 <elliott> Maybe it should say "replacement for interactive ssh"?
02:39:36 <elliott> Something that implies it's the actual terminally bits it's replacing, not ssh itself.
02:39:51 <shachaf> Except it's replacing more than that.
02:39:59 <shachaf> It does have its own protocol, after all.
02:40:13 <shachaf> Wouldn't want people to be overtrusting of it, would you.
02:40:32 <kmc> shachaf, some people are worried about what if Mosh drops a UDP packet while I'm typing "rm *foo\n" and it gets "rm *\n"
02:40:51 <elliott> kmc: Doesn't it sequentialise those properly?
02:41:00 <elliott> Those people are silly, then.
02:41:08 <kmc> i guess it is not common knowledge that one can implement a reliable protocol on top of UDP
02:41:13 <kmc> or that reliable protocols other than TCP exist
02:41:20 <elliott> You have to bake it into the ethernet cable itself.
02:41:23 <elliott> See, UDP is just like this big open hole.
02:41:26 <kmc> we've also been accused of "reinventing TCP" on this grounds
02:41:32 <elliott> But TCP has a bunch of gates to make sure everything goes through in the right order.
02:41:52 <elliott> I get the feeling everyone is sick of TCP nowdays.
02:41:54 <shachaf> kmc: You should invent a protocol that lets you send fds over the network.
02:42:02 <kmc> because TCP is like the platonic ideal of a reliable protocol, and there is no way you could ever do better even with total application domain knowledge
02:42:13 <kmc> I kind of think we should describe the Mosh protocol as more akin to video streaming
02:42:25 <kmc> if a packet drops, the server doesn't resend you that exact packet stream again
02:42:27 <shachaf> TCP is pretty good at what it does, to be fair.
02:42:38 <kmc> it tries to get you up to date as directly as possible
02:43:12 <elliott> kmc: Have you tried any of those ANSI films over mosh?
02:43:36 <shachaf> ANSI has gotten into the film business?
02:44:00 <pikhq> TCP could be better.
02:44:46 <elliott> shachaf: There's that Star Wars-over-telnet thing.
02:47:31 <kmc> i haven't elliott
02:52:22 <kmc> shouldn't "apt-get -f" be named "apt-get -un-f"
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02:53:24 <kmc> shachaf, well, Keith's actual graduate research is in improving TCP, so I think he thinks it can be improved :)
02:54:53 <kmc> i'm not sure it's even "pretty good"
02:54:58 <kmc> for the Internet as it exists today
02:55:05 <kmc> it deals very poorly with non-congestive losses
02:55:07 <kmc> which are common on radio
02:55:22 <kmc> so link layer protocol designers sometimes go to great lengths to hide those
02:55:24 <shachaf> But just the fact that it's from ~1974 and it actually works is pretty good.
02:55:27 <elliott> Nobody has yet been able to adequately explain to me why the internet works.
02:55:37 <elliott> AFAICT, it shouldn't. Actually, AFAICT it doesn't.
02:55:39 <kmc> we can maybe blame TCP for bufferbloat too
02:55:40 <kmc> i don't know
02:55:49 <elliott> But then it all goes and works and I don't know how or why. :(
02:55:50 <shachaf> I thought we were blaming buffers for that.
02:56:34 <elliott> shachaf: Does the internet work?
02:58:19 <shachaf> elliott: I think the answer involves pictures of cats.
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03:07:16 <zzo38> When I told someone about something near the end of one of the games in Super ASCII MZX Town series, that they tell you "You will need all of these things! Take it, please!" and leaves. They give you a bunch of ammunition, health, money, torches, and a multimeter; none of which is of the least bit of useful to you; it only serves to burden you. They told me that this game is diabolical.
03:29:38 <kmc> super latin-1 mzx town
03:30:28 <elliott> super unicode big endian mzx town
03:32:34 <shachaf> I'm getting some web server requests that start with U+FEFF
03:32:48 <shachaf> I'm not sure whether it's Unicode Big Endian or not, though.
03:37:25 <zzo38> kmc: Actually the game is based on CP437, not Latin-1
03:37:33 <shachaf> My compose key is broken. :-( <<On Windows platforms, which are mostly little endian, UTF-16LE is just called "Unicode" and UTF-16BE is just called "Unicode (Big Endian)".>>
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03:38:24 <elliott> shachaf: That doesn't make the "Unicode non-big-endian only has 65536 codepoints" thing any less true.
03:38:27 <elliott> shachaf: That doesn't make the "Unicode non-big-endian only has 65536 codepoints" thing any less false.
03:38:30 <elliott> shachaf: That doesn't make the "Unicode non-big-endian only has 65536 codepoints" thing any more true.
03:44:09 <pikhq> Windows also refers to legacy codepages as "ANSI".
03:44:16 <pikhq> That doesn't make it any less idiotic.
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04:11:38 <zzo38> findIndex p = snd . foldl (\(y, z) x -> (succP y, bool z (z <|> pure y) $ p x)) (zeroP, empty);
04:12:43 <zzo38> At least this is my version of findIndex
04:13:24 <zzo38> Has anyone ever played Final Jeopardy by themself without two opponents?
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04:20:06 <pikhq> zzo38: I don't know, but there has apparently been at least one instance of *nobody* playing Final Jeopardy.
04:34:30 <elliott> `addquote <Edwin Brady> Just seen this comment on reddit: "Parallel programming has been a solved problem for decades." I might have to stop reading the internet.
04:34:41 <HackEgo> 828) <Edwin Brady> Just seen this comment on reddit: "Parallel programming has been a solved problem for decades." I might have to stop reading the internet.
04:34:53 <elliott> (He's an esolanger, it counts!)
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04:50:25 <kmc> "parallel programming has been a solved problem for decades, but everyone is too dumb to appreciate my favorite solution"
04:50:52 <kmc> just like writing programs with no bugs
04:51:48 <elliott> My solution is to not read the internet.
04:53:35 <kmc> insert snarky remark about how the internet and the web are different
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05:03:34 <kmc> insert reference to saying something annoying, which is somehow supposed to be less annoying than saying it
05:04:12 <shachaf> Writing programs with no bugs is easy.
05:04:27 <zzo38> ...if it doesn't do anything.
05:04:29 <shachaf> Every computer program written by the majority of people alive has no bugs.
05:04:33 <qfr> What zzo38 said
05:04:48 <shachaf> Why are programmers so bad at programming?!
05:04:59 <zzo38> shachaf: Vacuously.
05:05:00 <qfr> Because most of them are human
05:06:09 <shachaf> 22:05 < Utkarsh_> How do I fix this? main = map print (map read (words getLine))
05:10:11 <kmc> with shachaf here, it's like i never really left #haskell!
05:10:34 <kmc> excuse me, bit of a sneeze
05:10:39 <zzo38> It does show you that some people do not understand Haskell
05:10:46 <kmc> zzo38: shocking
05:11:04 <shachaf> kmc: Hey, at least you don't get the dozens-of-people-typing-in-answers bit.
05:11:13 <monqy> shachaf: how predictable !
05:11:18 <monqy> shachaf: that's my new greeting now
05:11:21 <monqy> shachaf: how predictable !
05:11:35 <shachaf> have you forgotten about the power of hi monqy
05:12:49 <shachaf> - that monqy might've written
05:12:59 <shachaf> - if he was still with us today
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06:39:57 <zzo38> Is it ever possible to make a monad (or applicative) from Density comonad? I can think of return = flip Density zero . const; but then how to define join? Or, make pure and then how to define <*> or liftPair?
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06:53:43 <Sgeo> tswett, you awake?
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07:12:53 <zzo38> Or there is another way too
07:40:19 <zzo38> Maybe like this: pure = liftA2 Density const pure; liftPair (Density f1 x1, Density f2 x2) = Density (f1 . fmap fst &&& f2 . fmap snd) (liftPair x1 x2);
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07:59:26 <pikhq> RocketJSquirrel: Ever thought about Microcosm on A/UX?
08:10:13 <pikhq> Dammit, no working Mac emulators for the purpose.
08:11:24 <pikhq> MESS's support is a WIP, and all other emulators HLE part of the Toolbox, which A/UX doesn't even use.
08:11:59 <kmc> so get to work, jeez
08:12:47 <pikhq> I'm almost as work-averse as elliott. It's a bit of a problem.
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08:17:13 <kmc> pro nick itidus20
08:18:08 <itidus20> it was an artifact of another conversation i saw
08:18:20 <zzo38> Which game did you prefer? The game that the sun rises in the wrong place?
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11:33:24 <RocketJSquirrel> <pikhq> RocketJSquirrel: Ever thought about Microcosm on A/UX? // *shakes fist*
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13:43:04 <Phantom_Hoover> RocketJSquirrel, so from now on I will always snigger whenever Americans profess a love for bacon.
13:43:04 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
13:43:40 <nortti> http://gizmodo.com/5901263/court-rules-it-is-impossible-to-steal-computer-code
13:45:49 <RocketJSquirrel> Phantom_Hoover: Is it because you think that the uncooked junk you eat in the UK is bacon?
13:46:07 <RocketJSquirrel> Phantom_Hoover: Or because there's better bacon in continental Europe than either of us, which is true.
13:47:55 <RocketJSquirrel> Actually, your whole breakfast selection is a lesson in poor cooking.
13:48:25 <Phantom_Hoover> What are you talking about, you people can't even make toast properly.
13:53:24 <RocketJSquirrel> I'm honestly unsure what you mean by that, but it's ironic that you'd mention it tsince to cook eggs you fucking COOK EGGS.
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13:59:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I think you only mean fried eggs here, which are cooked all the way through anyway, just not flipped.
14:00:10 <RocketJSquirrel> Having had many breakfasts in the UK, I can assure you that they are neither cooked all the way through nor flipped.
14:00:30 <RocketJSquirrel> And the fact that you describe it that way means that the {over,under} {hard,medium,easy} system is meaningless to you.
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14:05:06 <RocketJSquirrel> Phantom_Hoover: Every foreigner eating breakfast at a restaurant for their first time in the US:
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14:24:34 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: in theory, I don't think I've cooked one in practice
14:25:00 <ais523> except if I was acting under the instructions of someone else
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14:55:54 <nortti> oh my ${DEITY}. Hv3 web browser is amazingly fast
15:08:30 <nortti> it runs on computer with 64MB of RAM
15:11:04 <nortti> and passes both Acid 1 and 2
15:13:40 <nortti> what about lynx, links2 and netsurf?
15:14:25 <RocketJSquirrel> I've considered writing a curses backend for WebKit, but (thank jebus) never followed through :)
15:14:39 <nortti> what is wrong with them
15:15:47 <RocketJSquirrel> If you want to go download some code from a project, they're super.
15:16:02 <RocketJSquirrel> If you want to replace your web browser with them, then you will live in a very small, sad version of the web.
15:16:29 <RocketJSquirrel> It's similar to the small, sad version of the web that people like ais523 who use JS blockers live in.
15:16:46 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: websplat works fine for me
15:17:12 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: I didn't even have to do that, it was pre-tweaked
15:17:20 <ais523> presumably I'd found reason to whitelist codu.org some time in the past
15:17:28 <nortti> I tried using Midori on this machine. After it had loaded its homepage form 10 mins I killed it
15:17:44 <ais523> anyway, I find that something like 90-95% of websites don't meaningfully benefit from JS
15:17:54 <nortti> and hv3 has ECMAScript support
15:18:10 <ais523> and in a significant fraction of the ones that would theoretically benefit from JS, the JS is written so badly that they're better off without it
15:18:16 <nortti> it is just turned off by default and that is good thing
15:18:49 <ais523> although, what I'm most annoyed at is websites that intentionally break blocked-JS; not as in not degrading gracefully, but as in specifically making a <noscript> tag that breaks the site and the site works fine if you use firebug to get rid of it
15:20:43 <nortti> yeah. That's fucking stupid
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15:26:18 <RocketJSquirrel> ais523: How broken is codu.org/music without JS? It has dropdown menus ...
15:26:20 <lambdabot> Local time for nortti is Fri Apr 13 17:29:11 2012
15:26:31 <lambdabot> Local time for fizzie is Fri Apr 13 18:26:29 2012
15:26:55 <nortti> I fucking hate daylight saving time...
15:27:26 <RocketJSquirrel> It is ... considerably less broken than logic would dictate ... CSS for the win I suppose.
15:27:38 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: the menus work, but they don't have an opaque background
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15:27:49 <ais523> and the "rescheme this page" link doesn't work, for what I hope are completely obvious reasons
15:30:31 <lambdabot> Local time for nortti is Fri Apr 13 18:33:16 2012
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16:32:57 <elliott> "The simplest explanation I can give for monads is that they take a basic data type and wrap it in a computation. This results in a new type that carries around a computation (or action, if you like) along with it."
16:33:09 <elliott> i need to be a mod of /r/haskell so i can delete posts like that
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16:44:47 <Mathnerd314> elliott: s/in a computation// and I think it's OK
16:44:51 <ais523> elliott: gah, it's not wrong /enough/ to not be confusing
16:46:23 <Mathnerd314> so my post would be: "The simplest explanation I can give for monads is that they take a basic data type and wrap it. This results in a new type."
16:47:30 <elliott> that was not the s// you sai
16:47:39 <elliott> anyway "wrap it" implies "the result contains it"
16:47:54 <elliott> s/monad/comonad/ might be the easiest way to make it not totally wrong :)
16:53:18 <elliott> "Note: for those of you that cannot do better than coming up with boring, witless comments and even suggestions to close a valid question, please see the accepted answer here: Using GNU/Linux system call `splice` for zero-copy Socket to Socket data transfers in Haskell as an excellent example of how to be of proper help to those that really seek constructive answers!!"
16:53:25 <elliott> The best part is that the answer they got to that question was wrong.
17:06:54 <kmc> the simplest explanation i can give for monads is that they're cake
17:07:43 <itidus22> all i know is they're not related to the monadology (or i hope not else i would be wrong)
17:07:57 <ais523> elliott: bleh, the backquotes there made me think splice was (1) rather than (2)
17:08:01 <ais523> but AFAIK there isn't a splice(1)
17:08:17 <ais523> what was the question, anyway? that seems like a valid answer to at least one question
17:09:02 <elliott> "that question" in my line is "Using GNU/Linux ..."
17:09:19 <elliott> They put that at the top of their question to whine after people criticised and closed the question as off-topic.
17:09:20 <ais523> I assumed that was the answer, not the question
17:09:39 <elliott> (It was a request for someone to benchmark RSA implementations.)
17:09:43 <ais523> as in "if you aren't getting enough performance from your userspace program, why not use a syscall that does the same thing instead"?
17:09:46 <kmc> also shouldn't it be "Linux system call" not "GNU/Linux system call"
17:10:14 <ais523> phrases like "GNU/Linux system call" can only meaningfully refer to things like readdir(3)
17:10:37 <elliott> ais523: the `splice` thing was another question by the same person
17:10:45 <elliott> ais523: which got a wrong answer from someone who didn't know Haskell
17:10:46 <ais523> (readdir is typically a syscall, but glibc readdir is a wrapper around getdents(2)
17:11:00 <elliott> (it appears to work, but is broken, because they don't understand GHC's IO manager, because they don't know any Haskell)
17:11:23 <elliott> (and of course now the broken library is on hackage hogging the name so that nobody competent can put up a working package)
17:12:21 <ais523> what sort of breakage is involved? the meaning being wrong so that the optimiser can change an incidentally-correct naive version into an incorrect optimised version?
17:12:37 <elliott> err, that seems an awfully specific reason to guess without having any context
17:13:03 <ais523> it is, but it's quite a common one wrt Haskell and unsafePerformIO
17:13:08 <elliott> the answer was "to avoid the syscall returning EAGAIN, set the socket to blocking mode"
17:13:22 <elliott> GHC, as you might know, does all IO through an event loop using non-blocking IO
17:14:29 <ais523> this is why CPAN has so many vaguely similar namespaces
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17:39:10 <elliott> kmc: how can i make ssh-agent prompt me for my key password on first login
17:39:26 <kmc> try the ssh-agent manpage
17:41:11 <kmc> re: nonblocking IO: sigh
17:42:45 <elliott> both me and bryan o'sullivan pointed out it's a bad idea on reddit but they didn't believe us
17:43:09 <elliott> we just don't know as much as $random_SO_answerer_who_doesn't_know_Haskell
17:46:38 <elliott> kmc: can you fix haddock so i can doc things in the export list
17:47:47 <Deewiant> elliott: I do it in my .xinitrc, but if you want to maintain ssh-agent across login sessions you might be interested in keychain: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Using_SSH_Keys#Keychain
17:48:17 <elliott> Deewiant: Hmm, how do you do it in .xinitrc?
17:48:24 <Deewiant> if ! ssh-add < /dev/null; then
17:48:32 <elliott> Deewiant: Yes, but what about your key password?
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17:48:58 <elliott> Deewiant: How? .xinitrc doesn't run in a terminal, does it?
17:49:28 <Deewiant> If ssh-add needs a passphrase, it will read the passphrase from
17:49:28 <Deewiant> the current terminal if it was run from a terminal. If ssh-add
17:49:28 <Deewiant> does not have a terminal associated with it but DISPLAY and
17:49:30 <Deewiant> SSH_ASKPASS are set, it will execute the program specified by
17:49:32 <Deewiant> SSH_ASKPASS and open an X11 window to read the passphrase. This
17:49:35 <Deewiant> is particularly useful when calling ssh-add from a .xsession or
17:49:37 <Deewiant> related script. (Note that on some machines it may be necessary
17:49:40 <Deewiant> to redirect the input from /dev/null to make this work.)
17:49:54 <elliott> Huh. What does SSH_ASKPASS default to / what do you have it set to?
17:50:04 <Deewiant> /usr/lib/openssh/qt4-ssh-askpass
17:50:43 <elliott> Anyway, what I essentialy want is for it to ask me for my key pw on first ssh login (just like if I didn't use ssh-agent), but then remember it thereafter for the rest of the X session.
17:50:43 <Deewiant> It defaults to empty, presumably. :-P
17:50:56 <elliott> Just like sudo, more or less.
17:51:00 <elliott> (Except without the timeout.)
17:51:01 <Deewiant> There are various dialogs, this one is community/openssh-askpass.
17:51:37 <Deewiant> So you probably want keychain, and then make ssh a shell script that runs keychain and then ssh, or something.
17:52:02 <elliott> Yes, the "make ssh a shell script" is the part I don't want to do. Especially since I'm not sure how mosh would like that.
17:52:47 <Deewiant> Alternatively, make it an alias in your .${SHELL}rc ;-P
17:53:14 <elliott> Deewiant: Well, that would completely defeat the point, since I don't use ssh directly.
17:53:16 <Deewiant> I doubt ssh itself supports starting up an ssh-agent if necessary.
17:53:40 <Deewiant> Well, I'd try the shell script way.
17:53:47 <elliott> I wouldn't be surprised if ssh let you set up "command to run before connecting", or something.
17:53:53 <elliott> In which case I could merely make it ssh-add.
17:54:06 <Deewiant> I don't see why mosh shouldn't like a shell script, if you do it right.
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17:54:56 <elliott> kmc: Hey, will mosh like a shell script?
17:55:23 <elliott> Deewiant: It occurs to me that a shell script would be very tricky to get right if I used ssh to more than one server.
17:55:37 <elliott> (Okay, to more than one server and where one of them isn't authenticated by that pubkey.)
18:08:36 <kmc> will it... like... a script? what do you mean?
18:08:55 <kmc> i guess i should read scrollback
18:09:15 <kmc> if ssh is really a shell script that invokes ssh
18:09:23 <kmc> and it still supports ssh's command line syntax
18:09:23 * elliott is glad his question was as unhelpful as he tried to make it
18:09:29 <kmc> then mosh should be fine
18:09:47 <elliott> kmc: Okay. It still feels wrong. :(
18:09:57 <elliott> Like, what if it suddenly didn't???
18:10:00 <elliott> Then scp wouldn't do what I want any more.
18:10:03 <Deewiant> According to its manpage, yes.
18:10:34 <kmc> we're thinking of supporting mosh --ssh="~/whatever/ssh --foo --bar"
18:10:41 <kmc> or you know --ssh="rsh" if that's your think
18:10:55 <kmc> except I think that won't work because it uses too many ssh-specific options
18:15:04 <kmc> WE NEED TO GO DEEPER
18:15:21 <elliott> > fix (\mosh -> "mosh --ssh=" ++ show mosh)
18:15:23 <lambdabot> "mosh --ssh=\"mosh --ssh=\\\"mosh --ssh=\\\\\\\"mosh --ssh=\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"...
18:15:35 <kmc> you aren't using my posix-escape package !!
18:15:50 <elliott> <mekeor> do you know this? http://news.ycombinator.com/
18:16:19 <elliott> kmc: "For safety, these functions drop all non-ASCII characters." :(
18:16:28 <kmc> blame ghc not me
18:16:34 <kmc> (there is a Unicode submodule tho)
18:16:38 <elliott> are you sure I can't blame Unix instead
18:16:46 <elliott> I like to blame all problems involving Unix on Unix
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18:18:05 <elliott> awesome, Rob Pike has brand new definitions of concurrency and parallelism
18:18:34 <elliott> (okay, they're fairly close to the GHC devs' definition)
18:21:18 <elliott> ion: Is tomodo always this funny?
18:22:56 <ion> Hmm, i don’t remember.
18:37:28 <elliott> shachaf: Since when is rank-2 type inference decidable?
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19:00:51 <elliott> search for "esolang" on google
19:01:00 <elliott> An overview of the language, history, and example code.
19:01:20 <elliott> http://www.dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Languages/Brainfuck/ dmoz
19:08:30 <qfr> http://www.dmoz.org/img/moz/moz_gamer.gif
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19:26:30 <itidus21> http://www.dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Languages/Obfuscated/
19:27:49 <elliott> oerjan: since when is rank-2 inference decidable
19:32:04 <oerjan> elliott: i vaguely recall seeing that mentioned
19:32:23 <elliott> it am go against my intuition :(
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19:39:49 <pikhq> http://research.swtch.com/qart Hey, it makes graphical QR codes without hoping the error handling works. Neat.
19:42:10 <elliott> Hmm, research!rsc didn't look like that a year ago.
19:42:15 <oerjan> elliott: i assume that might have something with Rank2 and RankN being different extensions.
19:45:08 <elliott> oerjan: does GHC implement the full inference for rank-2 types, though?
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19:53:11 <elliott> In the comments of that post.
19:57:09 <oerjan> <elliott> I CAN'T DEAL WITH THE PRESSURE OF EVERYBODY THINKING I'M CONAL <-- hird of conal-replacing elliotts
19:57:54 <olsner> elliott: I don't understand, are you conal?
19:58:13 <ion> `addquote <elliott> I CAN'T DEAL WITH THE PRESSURE OF EVERYBODY THINKING I'M CONAL
19:58:23 <HackEgo> 829) <elliott> I CAN'T DEAL WITH THE PRESSURE OF EVERYBODY THINKING I'M CONAL
20:09:20 <oerjan> that's when you do with your fingers like *this*
20:10:43 <oerjan> i'm afraid i don't know froge. now nn:fråge, otoh, that's a different en:question
20:11:29 <itidus21> it seems that the noise of the snap is using the thumb to increase the power with which you collide a finger against your palm
20:12:11 <oerjan> hm actually i'm not sure that is nynorsk at all. the first google hit for fråge nynorsk is not encouraging.
20:12:26 <itidus21> somehow i always thought it was the thumb against the finger that made the noise
20:12:51 <elliott> wow norwegian wikipedia only has 335k articles
20:13:32 <itidus21> in 100 years, esolangs.org will probably be the most important website
20:13:39 * oerjan hits elliott with the saucepan ===\__/
20:14:37 <oerjan> (to be honest, i rarely bother with the norwegian wikipedia myself)
20:14:54 <oerjan> it's nice for translating species names, though :P
20:15:10 <itidus21> i sometimes check alternate wikis on a topic just to see if theres different content
20:16:03 <itidus21> this probably goes even worse than it seems since i rarely translate it
20:16:49 <itidus21> when i see a blurb of text in a foreign language i am not very good at anticipating what it says
20:17:08 <itidus21> the odds of being wrong are very high
20:17:31 <oerjan> itidus21: my best snap is when i let the middle finger hit just between the palm and the ring finger resting on it
20:18:03 <itidus21> oerjan: it's a bit like how the japanese speed up their sword drawing by pressing it against the sheath
20:18:16 <oerjan> it's not exactly a world-class one, though
20:18:42 <elliott> world class snapping contest
20:19:55 <itidus21> its quite incredible the speed of a snap..
20:20:31 <itidus21> i don't entirely understand the mechanics of why it works so well
20:24:33 <oerjan> http://www.mezzacotta.net/owls/?comic=425
20:25:50 <elliott> oerjan: ps team hexham hit 20k take that trondheim losers we r on 2 u
20:29:21 <oerjan> fortunately it has wide streets to prevent fire from spreading
20:29:48 <oerjan> that doesn't help the block where it starts, though
20:30:59 <shachaf> elliott: Rank-2 type inference is decidable?
20:31:54 <kmc> believe so
20:33:22 <shachaf> Well, I want my money back.
20:33:35 <elliott> Type inference for rank-2 polymorphism is decidable, but reconstruction for rank-3 and above is not.[1]
20:33:40 <elliott> ^ a b c Pierce, B. C. 2002 Types and Programming Languages. MIT Press.
20:33:49 <oerjan> shachaf: no, but you can switch it for a new rank-n for free
20:34:53 <shachaf> I should probably read TaPL.
20:37:36 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know he's also a Christian right-winger? :(
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20:59:22 <Mathnerd314> are there many esolangs based on pattern-matching?
21:00:04 <Mathnerd314> I'd count /// as one, but that's probably it...
21:02:58 <oerjan> REGXY is linked from ///
21:03:28 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:String-rewriting_paradigm
21:04:34 <elliott> There's also http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Pattern-based, which is... sort of related.
21:07:06 <Mathnerd314> those all seem to use a pattern-matcher for implementing, but don't have a pattern-matching construct
21:07:41 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, saw this and thought of you: http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/s6i49/why_are_there_so_few_logicians_but_so_many_people/c4bieem
21:08:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That person is just a wimp who can't handle the cardinals.
21:15:22 <pikhq> Still, its pattern matching semantics *are* pretty weird.
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21:36:59 <pikhq> archive.org currently has 1,000 external hard drive enclosures for sale.
21:37:40 <pikhq> The reason? In a fit of complete economic inefficiency, currently the cheapest way to get a hard drive is to buy an external drive and remove the drive from the enclosure.
21:38:16 <pikhq> For details, jscott@archive.org
21:38:54 <elliott> hmm, aren't external HDs lower quality than internal HDs?
21:39:21 <pikhq> No, they're generally just internal HDs shoved in an enclosure.
21:42:01 <zzo38> pikhq: I do like awk for text-processing though
21:42:24 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:42:38 <pikhq> zzo38: As you should: that's the one thing it does well.
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21:48:53 <zzo38> Perhaps I could write some phlog journal messages about idea of Ibtlfmm, in case you are interested about that. But maybe the syntax *(x) -> {x} -> * is not so good because of the datakinds kind K x = K * (x -> x); it might use ( for grouping too. Maybe this syntax better? (* =x) -> {x} -> * or something else you have idea?
21:49:59 <zzo38> Do you even like this feature at all? Or can find any problems it would cause? If so, I would like to fix it
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22:07:23 <elliott> * Glor (889f1007@gateway/web/freenode/ip.136.159.16.7) has joined #haskell
22:07:24 <elliott> <Glor> hello i know this is not a prolog channel but noone is in prolog and im wondering if i could ask a question about prolog in here
22:07:47 <zzo38> elliott: Do you know Prolog?
22:11:11 -!- MoALTz_ has joined.
22:11:50 <nortti> I used it few years ago. I don't think I can remember the syntax though
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22:17:44 <zzo38> What is your opinion of the Ibtlfmm's extended kind system? Is crazy? Is good? Is bad? Is you don't know?
22:18:55 <zzo38> Then you must learn.
22:22:52 -!- derdon_ has joined.
22:23:31 <elliott> oerjan: oh btw i had a question for you
22:23:46 <elliott> oerjan: you mentioned how relations were (co+contra)variant in both parameters
22:23:48 <Mathnerd314> elliott: you could have had him ask on #esoteric :p
22:24:02 <elliott> oerjan: that got me to thinking, is there a nice way to define relations constructively in type theory...
22:24:10 <elliott> Mathnerd314: the prolog guy? i considered it
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22:26:56 <oerjan> elliott: A -> B -> Bool ?
22:30:17 <oerjan> although that doesn't give that covariance, i think
22:30:53 <oerjan> while [(A,B)] doesn't give contravariance
22:31:18 <elliott> oerjan: well the variance always gets messed up in type theory, it seems
22:31:27 <elliott> oerjan: e.g. a set is (a -> Bool)
22:31:41 <elliott> oerjan: but sets are both co- and contravariant in set theory
22:31:55 <elliott> in type theory you lose the co-, I think because it's not constructive enough
22:32:16 <elliott> (actually shouldn't it be (a -> Prop))
22:32:27 <elliott> (I think it should, you can construct sets based on undecidable propositions)
22:33:31 <elliott> <copumpkin> well, computationally, that roughly describes a decidable binary relation
22:33:31 <elliott> <copumpkin> a real one is a -> a -> Prop
22:33:33 <elliott> holy fucking synchronicity
22:33:42 <zzo38> I have seen a different kind of set in some Haskell code using (a -> Bool) -> a but there are no empty sets
22:34:17 <zzo38> But this is not contravariant; if it is then it is not Functor
22:38:52 <Phantom_Hoover> what is the difference i am but a simple mathematician
22:40:11 <zzo38> How do you represent the undecidable propositions?
22:41:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Prop is the type of all proposition types.
22:41:47 <elliott> Usually you say that all values x,y : P where P : Prop are equal (proof irrelevance).
22:41:52 <elliott> Bool is just a two-element type.
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22:42:24 <zzo38> How can a type have types?
22:42:29 <elliott> zzo38: Hmm, (a -> Bool) -> a is the impossible infinite search stuff, right?
22:42:34 <elliott> And because it's types all the way down in type theory.
22:42:43 <elliott> T : Type : Type[1] : Type[2] : and so on
22:43:47 <zzo38> elliott: (a -> Bool) -> a is the one for infinite search. I have read, that it is a monad even if you replace Bool with something else. But it cannot be empty. Maybe if you had a transformer you can transform Maybe and make it empty?
22:44:20 <elliott> Hmm, how do you represent (singleton x) and (member x s) with that?
22:46:37 <elliott> Is member x s = s (== x) == x?
22:47:26 <zzo38> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/infinite-search/0.12/doc/html/src/Data-Searchable.html
22:48:07 <elliott> join is a bit more powerful an operation than union.
22:48:34 <elliott> Can union be defined simply without bigUnion?
22:49:01 <Sgeo> Although I think that choice was sort of settled for me when I introduced her to Arimaa first
22:50:15 <elliott> zzo38: I can't figure out how to inline bigUnion in union to get a simpler definition. :(
22:50:52 <zzo38> elliott: I don't know either (but that might simply be because I haven't tried)
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23:04:51 <elliott> zzo38: (a -> Bool) -> Maybe a does indeed seem to work
23:06:04 <zzo38> Can it make a transformer? newtype SetT b m a = SetT ((a -> b) -> m a);
23:10:28 <Phantom_Hoover> <Sgeo> Although I think that choice was sort of settled for me when I introduced her to Arimaa first
23:10:41 <elliott> zzo38: Dunno about that, even with b = Bool
23:10:45 <elliott> zzo38: The join defn. depends on forsome
23:10:50 <elliott> Dunno how to implement forsome for any m
23:13:14 <elliott> zzo38: Do you know where you read that it's a monad even if you replace Bool?
23:13:19 <elliott> I'd be interested in reading the same.
23:17:51 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, which is a better game
23:18:06 <Phantom_Hoover> <Phantom_Hoover> <Sgeo> Although I think that choice was sort of settled for me when I introduced her to Arimaa first
23:18:29 <Sgeo> Do you really want to know?
23:19:03 <Phantom_Hoover> My curiosity is going to get the better of me whatever I do.
23:19:29 <zzo38> elliott: http://math.andrej.com/2008/11/21/a-haskell-monad-for-infinite-search-in-finite-time/
23:20:29 <Sgeo> Although I'm not a fan of "3/4 blind" as an insult the way to seemed to just now
23:22:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:25:00 <elliott> zzo38: Oh, that also explains why Maybe won't work.
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23:28:18 <elliott> @djinn ((a -> Bool) -> a) -> (a -> (b -> Bool) -> b) -> (b -> Bool) -> b
23:28:19 <lambdabot> c (b (a (\ _ -> False)) (\ _ -> False)))
23:28:30 <elliott> @djinn ((a -> bool) -> a) -> (a -> (b -> bool) -> b) -> (b -> bool) -> b
23:28:30 <lambdabot> f a b c = b (a (\ d -> c (b d c))) c
23:29:06 <Sgeo> zzo38, what do you think of Arimaa?
23:34:49 -!- augur has joined.
23:36:47 <elliott> siracusa has been in here?
23:38:04 <monqy> don't encourage him, sgeo
23:38:11 <monqy> you aren't an enabler are you
23:39:33 <Sgeo> Ugh, how much does a chess set cost
23:39:49 <Sgeo> If it's much less than $40, I'll have to consider this Arimaa set a bit of a ripoff
23:40:04 -!- MoALTz_ has joined.
23:41:03 <Sgeo> Although for playing Arimaa, I would want Arimaa pieces
23:41:03 <calamari> you can get a chess set at the dollar store
23:41:14 -!- MoALTz__ has joined.
23:41:21 <shachaf> Can you get a chess set at the $40 store?
23:41:24 <Sgeo> "The Arimaa set also doubles as an animal theme Chess set when you flip over the board. Kids love playing with the animal theme pieces, making Chess more fun and interesting for them."
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23:41:40 <Sgeo> That's... vaguely offensive to anyone who wants to teach chess, I think
23:42:00 <shachaf> My name is elliott, and I'm offended by this message.
23:42:05 <monqy> i dont want to teach chess, so im not offended
23:42:16 <calamari> a nice wood board and pieces will cost a bit more tho
23:42:33 <Sgeo> http://arimaa.com/arimaa/store/gameSet.html
23:44:16 * Sgeo has never heard of SolidCoin before
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23:45:18 <Sgeo> http://solidcoinmafia.com/
23:45:27 <Sgeo> "SolidCoin Mafia is a Bitcoin merged mining pool that pays out in SolidCoins. When a Bitcoin block is won those Bitcoins are taken to various exchanges and used to buy SolidCoins using a variety of algorithms."
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23:49:15 <elliott> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=73986.0 sloidcarn
23:49:22 <elliott> hello Sgeo welcome to slayedcairn
23:49:28 <elliott> holy shit it accidentally became metal
23:49:34 <elliott> i want to live in slayedcairn
23:49:37 -!- AndGregor has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:49:52 -!- AndGregor has joined.
23:50:14 <AndGregor> Oh, wireless disconnects when it sleeps :-)
23:50:54 <Sgeo> "and how is it better? people who create it take more care about end-user then bitcoin people"
23:50:54 <calamari> I was having that trouble on my wii
23:51:06 <Sgeo> "e.g. Instead of waiting 1 hour for 6 confirms, it goes a lot faster"
23:51:13 <calamari> so I just had it ping the router every few seconds
23:51:13 <elliott> AndGregor: since when do you :-)
23:54:05 <elliott> "Well, looks like this is pretty much dead courtesy of a >51% attack by Luke Jr. The more interesting features should in theory be available in Bitcoin eventually - including the removal of existing legacy Bitcoin addresses if Luke Jr gets his way (he was threatening to refuse to mine transactions using them). No idea when though and I certainly won't be developing the tools to make use of them."
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23:58:20 <Sgeo> Wait, luke jr has control of BitCoin?
23:58:26 <Sgeo> What is "this" here?
23:58:31 <Sgeo> SolidCoin, or what?
23:58:43 <elliott> theyrel ike brianfuck derivatives
23:58:50 <elliott> in that all their creators have bricks for brains
23:59:04 <monqy> he has complete cointrol
23:59:12 <calamari> but.. but.. I created a brainfuck derivative :(
23:59:23 <Sgeo> As have we all. As have we all.
23:59:29 <monqy> didn't you make a brainfuck derivative, elliott
23:59:34 <elliott> # Convert ehird's "brainfuck to B Nomic platonic autoaction english" to brainfuck
00:00:07 <elliott> calamari: does Phantom_Hoover know
00:00:20 <elliott> calamari: i'd keep a close eye on yr brain for a while
00:00:25 <elliott> you never know when he might swap it for a brick
00:00:35 <Sgeo> Does PH know I made a BF derivative?
00:01:06 <elliott> Sgeo with all due respect i think phs opinion on the matter would be that nothing needs to be done to complete the brainbricking procedure
00:01:24 <calamari> here's mine http://esolangs.org/wiki/BitChanger
00:02:44 <Sgeo> How easy is it to use PSOX with BitChangeer
00:03:29 -!- MoALTz_ has joined.
00:03:42 <elliott> calamari: whoa, that predates Ook!
00:03:46 <elliott> when was the first bf derivative?
00:03:52 -!- MoALTz__ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
00:04:34 <elliott> do we know whether Urban knew about P''?
00:08:17 <elliott> here's an email i sent to B Nomic once http://sprunge.us/UXbU
00:09:07 <elliott> I think that was after "if you're obligated to twiddle some state it gets automatically twiddled" or something was introduced
00:10:07 * Sgeo whats at all the text.
00:10:21 -!- MoALTz__ has joined.
00:10:56 <calamari> Sgeo: I never actually used BitChanger for anything .. and it predates PSOX, because I created EsoAPI in 2005 and PSOX was inspired by EsoAPI
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00:12:10 <monqy> has anyone used psox for anything
00:13:38 <calamari> I don't know.. I made EsoAPI because I needed something for bos
00:13:55 <Sgeo> monqy, there's the wget.b that pikhq wrote
00:14:02 <Sgeo> Does that count as using it for anything?
00:14:11 <calamari> which was a brainfuck os that I fit inside a floppy boot sector
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00:24:27 <Mathnerd314> "Nobody apart from ehird can join this contract." <- so selfish
00:25:45 <calamari> my brain now autoconverts rd to rainbow dash
00:28:48 <Sgeo> hi shachaf, monqy
00:29:05 <shachaf> hi Sgeo, monqy, shachaf, monqy, monqy, monqy
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00:37:10 <shachaf> kmc: elliott wants a book title.
00:37:47 <kmc> what book?
00:38:06 <Sgeo> shachaf, clearly, hi
00:38:24 <Sgeo> Where is the lid?
00:38:26 <Sgeo> Where is the lid?
00:38:34 <Sgeo> Where is the liiiiid?
00:38:43 <oerjan> Webscale Quantum Parallel Haskell: A practical approach
00:39:26 <oerjan> Zygohistomorphic Prepromorphisms for Dummies
00:40:00 <oerjan> crash test dummies, that is
00:40:03 <kmc> how about just a pamphlet listing the haskell inside jokes
00:40:09 <kmc> so you can be in the #haskell cool kidz klub
00:43:57 <shachaf> kmc: I expect there are more #haskell inside jokes than there are actual things to learn about Haskell.
00:44:07 <shachaf> So such a book would probably be longer than a real Haskell book.
00:44:28 <elliott> I don't think there's much variety.
00:46:13 <Sgeo> Does Goldilocks count as an inside joke?
00:47:48 <kmc> lol shachaf
00:48:05 <elliott> kmc?? bitter about #haskell???
00:50:45 <quintopia> elliott: what does that nomic program do? i'm too lazy
00:51:25 <elliott> quintopia: Hello, world, I think.
00:51:30 <quintopia> (why did you not add a Program attribute and have the step reference that in a fetch-execute cycle so you could just say "Program is blah")
00:52:04 <elliott> quintopia: that's easier for people to work out
00:52:11 <elliott> B was a game of logical hand grenades
00:53:58 <zzo38> Do you know the Goldilock's method to generate ability scores? I have wrote a program for it on my calculator, to work with Dungeons&Dragons, but it can also be used with Icosahedral RPG
00:54:11 <zzo38> elliott: What is a game of logical hand grenades?
00:55:29 -!- derdon_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:56:24 <zzo38> "Zygohistomorphic Prepromorphisms for Crash Test Dummies: The Practical Approach"
01:09:14 <Sgeo> oerjan, what did Goldilocks say when she saw "Maybe (b -> Either a b)"?
01:09:47 <zzo38> Sgeo: I have seen that one too
01:10:13 <Sgeo> zzo38, yes, because I made it
01:15:58 <monqy> is it ok if i give up giving up hi i really want to say hi now so bad
01:16:16 <Sgeo> bad so now hi say
01:16:21 <shachaf> The Britain/UK/Crown/Commonwealth thing is so complicated, even elliott doesn't understand it.
01:16:34 <shachaf> monqy: How can it be wrong when it feels so hi?
01:18:29 <shachaf> monqy: teach lambdabot about hi :(
01:37:22 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: bid dice dict ghc id rc src
01:38:57 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: hackage help hitchcock hoogle hoogle+ . ? @ v
01:39:23 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Are you on drugs?
01:40:14 <lambdabot> Supported dictionary-lookup commands:
01:40:14 <lambdabot> all-dicts devils easton elements foldoc gazetteer hitchcock jargon lojban vera web1913 wn world02
01:40:14 <lambdabot> Use "dict-help [cmd...]" for more.
01:40:40 <kmc> @ball-dicks
01:41:44 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: dict kind list ping
01:42:23 <lambdabot> Wouldn't you prefer a nice game of chess?
01:42:47 * oerjan swats kmc and shachaf -----###
01:43:03 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
01:43:13 <lambdabot> Now, now. What are you swatting them for?
01:43:45 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
01:44:11 <lambdabot> I won't listen to any more commands until you talk to me.
01:44:56 * oerjan swats kmc and shachaf again -----###
01:45:56 <elliott> I like how oerjan has now given four swattings to other people for something I did.
01:47:11 <elliott> I get the feeling this silence is a prelude to oerjan kicking me or something.
01:48:57 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: bid id let list map slap
01:49:05 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: do help map show yow
01:49:15 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: do ft let show vote what yow
01:49:19 <elliott> Did I get out of swatting?
01:50:04 <lambdabot> http://www.haskell.org/hawiki/HaskellUserLocations
01:51:20 * elliott wonders what oerjan is doing.
01:51:39 <oerjan> trying to find out what @hi is interpreted as
01:51:45 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: localtime localtime-reply lojban do
01:52:40 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
01:53:08 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parametersError: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
01:55:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:55:55 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
01:55:58 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
01:56:00 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
01:58:27 <Sgeo> @lojban la lojban
01:58:31 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parametersError: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
01:58:34 <Sgeo> @lojban le lojban
01:58:38 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parametersError: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
01:58:50 <Sgeo> I forgot even the one sentence I knew
01:59:05 <Sgeo> @lojban le nanmu cu ninmu
01:59:12 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parametersError: 501 Syntax error, illegal parametersError: 501 Syntax error, illegal parametersError: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
02:00:45 <elliott> The best thing about being a 10k user on Stack Overflow is that you can see all of Jon Harrop's deleted answers.
02:01:46 <ion> @lojban Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fhtagn!
02:01:53 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parametersError: 501 Syntax error, illegal parametersError: 501 Syntax error, illegal parametersError: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
02:05:09 <Sgeo> What is illegal about le nanmu cu ninmu?
02:05:10 <elliott> Sgeo: A colostomy bag of a programmer.
02:05:17 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
02:05:24 <Sgeo> @lojban zo'e nanmu
02:05:27 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parametersError: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
02:05:38 <elliott> Anyway, he's a complete F# shill with a shitty consultancy selling shitty books.
02:05:38 <Sgeo> zo'e should always be a legal parameter right?
02:05:49 <elliott> He spends his time trolling internet forums talking about how useless Haskell and other languages he doesn't consult for are.
02:05:54 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
02:05:57 <elliott> And slandering a bunch of people along the way.
02:06:07 <elliott> And making idiotic blog posts about it.
02:06:09 <Sgeo> @lojban le sumti cu sumti
02:06:15 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parametersError: 501 Syntax error, illegal parametersError: 501 Syntax error, illegal parametersError: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
02:06:47 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> Is this a legal statement
02:06:47 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> le sumti cu sumti
02:06:47 <Sgeo> <teryrei> absolutely.
02:07:05 * oerjan wonders if Sgeo is really missing the point here
02:07:22 <lambdabot> I perform dictionary lookups via the following 13 commands:
02:07:22 <lambdabot> all-dicts ... Query all databases on dict.org
02:07:22 <lambdabot> devils ...... The Devil's Dictionary
02:07:22 <lambdabot> easton ...... Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary
02:07:46 <Sgeo> @lojban all-dicts hi
02:07:48 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parametersError: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
02:07:51 <lambdabot> dict provides: dict dict-help all-dicts devils easton elements foldoc gazetteer hitchcock jargon lojban vera web1913 wn world02
02:08:48 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
02:08:58 <Sgeo> So what the fark does @lojban do, exactly?
02:09:49 <lambdabot> *** "Hello" gcide "The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48"
02:09:49 <lambdabot> An exclamation used as a greeting, to call attention, as an
02:09:49 <lambdabot> exclamation of surprise, or to encourage one. This variant of
02:09:49 <lambdabot> {Halloo} and {Holloo} has become the dominant form. In the
02:09:56 <Sgeo> @all-dicts sumti
02:09:58 <lambdabot> *** "hello" foldoc "The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing (26 July 2010)"
02:10:05 <lambdabot> <programming> The canonical minimal test message in the
02:10:11 <lambdabot> {C}/{Unix} universe or any of the minimal programs that emit
02:10:17 <lambdabot> Traditionally, the first program a C coder writes in a new
02:10:19 <lambdabot> environment is one that just prints "hello, world" to standard
02:10:23 <lambdabot> output (and indeed it is the first example program in {K&R}).
02:10:27 <lambdabot> Plugin `more' failed with: thread killed
02:11:45 -!- teryrei has joined.
02:12:05 * Sgeo points teryrei at lambdabot
02:12:11 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
02:12:29 <Sgeo> Which seems to be a dictionary thing that's broken
02:12:48 <HackEgo> TERYREI: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
02:12:52 <elliott> SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS, I'M IRCING FROM A COMMODORE 64.
02:13:24 <Sgeo> Hmm, maybe lambdabot is using a Lojban dictionary on the web that moved stuff around?
02:13:30 <oerjan> elliott: IT WOULD BE FINE IF THE LINK WORKED
02:13:45 <lambdabot> *** "hacker" jargon "The Jargon File (version 4.4.7, 29 Dec 2003)"
02:13:45 <lambdabot> [originally, someone who makes furniture with an axe]
02:14:22 <Sgeo> teryrei, is there a particular web-based dictionary that would likely have been used, and has it changed around?
02:14:54 <teryrei> the web-based dictionaries that are primarily used are vlasisku and jbovlaste
02:15:01 <elliott> OERJAN: UNFORTUNATELY, IT IS DIFFICULT TO CODE SUCH THINGS ON A COMMODORE 64.
02:15:10 <shachaf> oerjan: Wait, what did I get double-swatted for?
02:15:19 <oerjan> elliott: YOU MUST USE BASIC, OF COURSE
02:15:20 <elliott> ALSO, LAMBDABOT IS OBVIOUSLY NOT USING WEB-BASED DICTIONARIES.
02:15:26 <elliott> EVEN I KNOW THAT. AND I USE COMMODORE 64S
02:15:35 <oerjan> shachaf: you were the closest lambdabot admin
02:15:43 <shachaf> oerjan: I'm not a lambdabot admin. :-(
02:15:51 <shachaf> I don't think kmc is a lambdabot admin either.
02:16:04 <elliott> HEY, I EVEN PLEADED GUILTY!
02:16:08 <elliott> OERJAN JUST REALLY LIKES SWATTING YOU.
02:16:19 <oerjan> I REFUSE TO BELIEVE ELLIOTT IS AN ADMIN AND YOU AREN'T
02:16:43 <shachaf> oerjan: The trick elliott used to becoming a lambdabot admin was along the lines of "Cale, make me an admin!"
02:16:45 <elliott> SHACHAF IS AN ADMIN ONLY BECAUSE HE LOGS IN WITH THE NICK OF REAL ADMINS TO @ADMIN + HIMSELF
02:17:08 <shachaf> elliott: HEY, YOU DON'T KNOW WHICH OF LAMBDABOT'S MANY SECURITY FLAWS I'M USING!
02:17:09 <elliott> SHACHAF: ACTUALLY, SOMEONE ASKED ME WHY I WASN'T A LAMBDABOT ADMIN, AND I SAID "GOOD QUESTION! CALE, WHY AREN'T I A LAMBDABOT ADMIN?"
02:17:12 <elliott> AND THEN I WAS LAMBDABOT ADMIN
02:17:36 <kmc> irssi only highlights "^kmc[:,]" and not "kmc"?
02:17:39 <shachaf> elliott: HMM, LET'S STAGE THAT IN #HASKELL, EXCEPT WITH S/YOU/ME/G
02:17:51 <shachaf> kmc: You can tell it to highlight "kmc", though.
02:17:51 <elliott> KMC: THAT'S ONE OF IRSSI'S MANY BUGS (BUG, N. BEHAVIOUR I DISLIKE)
02:18:03 <kmc> how shachaf? i looked for at least 15 seconds and couldn't find
02:18:03 <shachaf> kmc: I don't think that [:,] is part of the regexp, actually.
02:18:09 <kmc> yeah that did it
02:19:15 <kmc> got that too
02:20:10 <kmc> shachaf: u creepy stalker
02:20:30 <oerjan> and then oerjan tests some more
02:22:57 <oerjan> ^ul (<CTCP>ACTION helps oerjan with the testing<CTCP>)S
02:22:58 * fungot helps oerjan with the testing
02:24:04 <oerjan> that was a really ugly color
02:24:39 <oerjan> fungot: what do you think?
02:24:39 <fungot> oerjan: that you all for them, i have come up with a " i have lots, probably! if not, we can make the cutest cards ever for a series of puns.
02:25:30 <oerjan> ^ul (<CTCP>ACTION helps oerjan with the testing<CTCP>)S
02:25:30 * fungot helps oerjan with the testing
02:30:11 <shachaf> kmc: What's /usr/lib/tracker/tracker-* supposed to be?
02:32:40 <kmc> shachaf: ?
02:32:43 <kmc> i've never heard of those files
02:33:55 <shachaf> kmc: They're programs that are running and using lots of CPU.
02:33:59 <shachaf> I thought you would know. :-(
02:34:08 <shachaf> (gnome-settings-daemon:11549): PackageKit-WARNING **: do something?
02:35:08 <ion> Tracker indexes your stuff so you can search instantaneously by content.
02:35:49 <ion> It also provides a generic metadata store for programs.
02:35:52 <shachaf> I don't want tracker to track.
02:35:58 <shachaf> ion: How do I untracker. :-(
02:36:43 <ion> ＨＥＬＬＯ ＴＯ ＹＯＵ， ＥＬＩＯＴ！
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02:36:51 <elliott> this is what happems when you irc from space people
02:37:02 <elliott> kmc: how good would mosh be in space
02:37:13 <elliott> let's make it easy let's say mars
02:37:40 <ion> shachaf: It shouldn’t use a lot of resources after the initial indexing. And it should use the lowest priority in any case.
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02:39:36 <shachaf> ion: Also, why do I randomly get pseudo-disconnected from the wireless network?
02:39:44 <shachaf> As in 169.254.*. Maybe it's a dhcp issue?
02:40:10 <ion> /var/log/syslog
02:40:50 <elliott> finally i drove teryrei away
02:41:03 <elliott> all it took was going into space
02:41:07 <pikhq_> elliott: Half-hour latency remains a *bitch*.
02:42:23 <shachaf> I just came up with yet another argument against the cat-haters!
02:42:39 <shachaf> The people who say you should do "foo < file" or "foo file" instead of "cat file | foo".
02:42:49 <shachaf> Who are, by the way, wrong.
02:43:08 <shachaf> The other argument is sudo cat file | less, instead of sudo less file.
02:43:48 <elliott> shachaf: i stand in solidarity w/ u
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02:43:53 <ion> <file.in foo | bar | baz >file.out
02:44:42 <shachaf> ion: Doesn't work with sudo!
02:44:44 <pikhq_> shachaf: Given that /bin/cat is probably GNU, running "less file" as root probably presents less of an attack surface than "cat file".
02:44:49 <shachaf> Apr 13 19:43:12 carbon dhclient: DHCPDISCOVER on wlan0 to 255.255.255.255 port 67 interval 10
02:44:52 <shachaf> Apr 13 19:43:22 carbon dhclient: No DHCPOFFERS received.
02:44:55 <shachaf> Apr 13 19:43:22 carbon dhclient: Trying recorded lease 192.168.1.80
02:44:57 <shachaf> Apr 13 19:43:25 carbon avahi-autoipd(wlan0)[7970]: No longer a routable address configured, restarting probe process.
02:45:00 <shachaf> Apr 13 19:43:25 carbon dhclient: No working leases in persistent database - sleeping.
02:45:03 <shachaf> Apr 13 19:43:30 carbon avahi-autoipd(wlan0)[7970]: Callout BIND, address 169.254.9.114 on interface wlan0
02:45:06 <shachaf> Apr 13 19:43:34 carbon avahi-autoipd(wlan0)[7970]: Successfully claimed IP address 169.254.9.114
02:45:16 <ion> TIL: this less doesn’t come from GNU.
02:45:30 <pikhq_> Oh, crap, less is also GNU.
02:46:11 <shachaf> Today, ion and pikhq_ exchanged knowledge.
02:46:30 <pikhq_> It sure as hell isn't.
02:46:35 <ion> Interesting. Mine comes from <http://www.greenwoodsoftware.com/less/> but there seems to be <http://www.gnu.org/software/less/> as well.
02:46:44 <shachaf> I don't like all these things.
02:46:53 <shachaf> How do I unthing my computer. :-(
02:46:56 <pikhq_> The man page says "less is part of the GNU project and is free software.", but it is not © FSF.
02:48:02 <elliott> My less cometh from whence the ion disclosed alsowards.
02:48:04 <pikhq_> I'm going with "confusing".
02:48:08 <ion> shachaf: Avahi is a Good Thing™. The problem is the “No DHCPOFFERS received” part.
02:48:32 <pikhq_> Hmm. /bin/cat is 52k, /bin/less is 148k.
02:48:36 <elliott> ion: avahi is Poetteringware. Are you *sure* it's a Good Thing?
02:48:39 <shachaf> Also, does that mean that the lease expired? Why can't it just stick with the old IP until it gets a new one?
02:48:40 <elliott> I don't think Poetteringware can be a Good Thing.
02:48:43 <oerjan> <shachaf> In the linear sense. <-- you mean the original knowledge was destroyed?
02:49:37 <pikhq_> Avahi implements Zeroconf.
02:50:03 <ion> shachaf: When there is no DHCP server it’s probably invalid behavior to keep an address some previously existing DHCP server happened to give to you for a period.
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02:51:19 <shachaf> ion: Are you saying the problem might maybe be with the server?
02:52:19 <ion> All i know is that your DHCP queries don’t make it to the server OR the DHCP responses don’t make it to your client. You’ll need to investigate more.
02:52:37 <elliott> ion answers shachaf's questions but not mine. :'(
02:52:50 <ion> Is the cable working? Do any other computers have the same problem? Anything interesting in /var/log/syslog on the server?
02:52:53 <shachaf> ion: When I reconnect to the wireless network from scratch, it always works.
02:53:09 <shachaf> I'm at a public place, so I don't really know about other computers. But I doubt it.
02:53:15 <ion> shachaf: A wireless driver problem perhaps.
02:53:40 <shachaf> I recently ran a dist-upgrade.
02:53:52 <shachaf> I mean just a regular upgrade.
02:53:57 <shachaf> The dist- was out of habit.
02:53:59 <shachaf> Well, I ran it a while ago, but I rebooted for the first time since then.
02:54:37 * elliott always does dist-upgrade, too.
02:54:57 <ion> elliott: Avahi actually feels like quite a solid piece of software.
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02:56:10 <pikhq_> elliott: It seems to be early Poettering.
02:56:40 <pikhq_> Before he went around just trying to break everything.
02:56:45 <elliott> There are stages of Poettering?
02:56:49 <elliott> When does it become fatal?
02:57:02 <ion> To self or everyone else?
02:57:29 <elliott> Is there a difference, man?
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03:04:10 <zzo38> What happen if with (a -> Bool) -> a instead is f a -> a if f is contravariant functor?
03:04:16 <ion> By the way: http://youtu.be/_whSnPErl7c
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03:13:38 <shachaf> ion: Tracker is still going.
03:13:57 <shachaf> My computer is rendered mostly unusable by the constant hard disk usage.
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03:40:31 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy non-working UPDATE
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04:22:22 <elliott> kmc: "Apply deepSeqArray to up to four arrays. The implementation of this function has been hand-unwound to work for up to four arrays. Putting more in the list yields error."
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04:22:30 <elliott> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/repa/3.1.1.1/doc/html/src/Data-Array-Repa-Base.html#deepSeqArrays
04:22:40 <HackEgo> rubygloom: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
04:24:04 <quintopia> what happens in illinois? is it boring?
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04:47:43 <Sato0x> Did you ssee my language?
04:48:38 <Sato0x> some nice guy edited to make it look nice
04:48:46 <Sato0x> just a few minutes after I published it
04:50:38 <Sato0x> http://esolangs.org/wiki/EGL
04:54:29 <quintopia> yes i am being overly honest without concern for your feelings
04:55:00 <Sato0x> you intend to offend me without regard to the subject
04:55:11 <quintopia> however, you should know that the esolang community is to particular languages what the planet earth is to individual humans
04:55:40 <quintopia> it doesnt care unless its interesting enough to achieve celebrity status
04:56:14 <quintopia> and you should not expect anyone to have seen your language just because you posted it on the wiki
04:56:40 <quintopia> what does it take for a language to achieve celebrity status?
04:57:01 <quintopia> it has to probe some heretofore unexplored aspect of the design space
04:57:41 <quintopia> what is your preferred language to program in?
04:58:23 <Sato0x> mainly php since I usually do web dev
04:58:44 <Sato0x> though I wrote an interpreter in perl and php
04:58:56 <quintopia> what languages have you played with in the past besides those?
04:59:08 <Sato0x> I'm trying to learn c++ right now
04:59:16 <Sato0x> I've read a fair bit about asm
04:59:48 <quintopia> you have your whole life ahead of you!
05:00:20 <kmc> Sato0x: http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/
05:00:34 <quintopia> get a photo of you and turing standing next to the haskell tower!
05:00:36 <kmc> (I'm helping!)
05:01:25 <Sgeo> onmoon(quintopia).
05:01:29 <quintopia> set FORTH on an adventure (preferably a rogue-like)
05:02:15 <zzo38> I agree that PHP is full of bad designs. However I could get many things to work in PHP which are not built-in, such as partially applied functions, and pointers.
05:02:18 -!- elliott has joined.
05:02:20 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sat Apr 14 06:02:50
05:02:24 <quintopia> once you have seen the wonders of the world, you will be easily capable of creating a esolang that every will have read before you even have to ask
05:02:31 <lambdabot> Local time for zzo38 is 2012/04/13 21:53:38 -0700
05:02:34 <Sato0x> kmc: Those are opinions; php works just fine for me and accomplishes what I need it to do.
05:02:41 <kmc> no they are not opinions
05:02:45 <kmc> it is a massive list of technical facts
05:02:55 <elliott> *is someone defending php and still in this channel
05:02:55 <coppro> can someone give me ops for a moment?
05:03:06 <elliott> (sorry i made a typo by omitting words)
05:03:51 <coppro> wow we only have 6 ops here?
05:03:59 <coppro> several of whom are never seen
05:04:05 <quintopia> elliott: Sato0x made a cross between befunge and brainfuck and came in here asking "have you seen my new language?!?"
05:04:17 <kmc> Sato0x: if I tried to build a house by hammering the nails in with my own forehead
05:04:23 <elliott> quintopia: i don't mind that! i mind defending php though
05:04:23 <kmc> it would be your "opinion" that i'm doin it rong
05:04:33 <quintopia> so i said he should branch out from the imperative/procedural languages he came from
05:04:34 <elliott> how long has this been going on btw
05:04:40 <elliott> i get the feeling: a while
05:04:42 <Sato0x> Depends, did the house end up being built?
05:04:43 <coppro> I need to /invite someone :(
05:04:51 <kmc> yes, and my brain severely damaged in the process
05:04:55 <shachaf> coppro: You need to be an op for that?
05:05:01 <kmc> this would explain why people continue to defend PHP of course
05:06:21 <Sato0x> php is more like a functioning electric screw driver.
05:06:37 <kmc> php is more like putting nails into your dick
05:06:39 <kmc> but anyway
05:06:45 <kmc> it's hard to argue with someone who thinks PHP is good
05:07:11 <Sato0x> Indeed; they have too many valid points.
05:07:12 <kmc> just know that everyone else in the world of programming is laughing at you
05:07:20 <kmc> until your website compromises our data
05:07:30 <elliott> Sato0x: btw where is the actual EGL info on detain.me, i can't find any
05:07:49 <Sato0x> detain.me/tools/egl.php
05:08:07 <elliott> is that actually linked anywhere from the site
05:08:12 <zzo38> PHP is not so good (JavaScript is better than PHP, but, a lot of things are better than PHP, anyways); but, a few things that PHP lacks are possible to implement anyways but not in the better way of another programming language
05:08:23 <elliott> http://detain.me/articles/ no there's not
05:08:23 <qfr> JavaScript is awful, too :(
05:08:37 <kmc> javascript is not great but nothing compares to PHP
05:08:39 <zzo38> qfr: Well, it is better than PHP, at least.
05:08:40 <qfr> it's PHP all over again
05:08:42 <kmc> it is the blind leading the blind
05:09:05 <kmc> Sato0x: so did you actually read the article
05:09:07 <elliott> javascript was at least designed by someone who knows things
05:09:13 <kmc> and its literally hundreds of examples of how PHP is completely insnae
05:09:17 <Sgeo> Should I be scareD?
05:09:22 <elliott> saddled with bad requirements (and then tarnished by terrible API design)
05:09:22 <kmc> these are not opinions, they are facts about the language
05:09:28 <Sato0x> I'll reupload it when I get on my desktop
05:10:06 <shachaf> Is that a UNIX daemon that shows you a screaming face at random intervals during the night?
05:10:25 <zzo38> (I am refering to JavaScript without DOM, just to clarify)
05:10:29 <elliott> Sato0x: "=> isn’t an operator. It’s a special construct that only exists inside array(...) and the foreach construct." is this an opinion
05:10:43 <Sgeo> T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM
05:10:50 <elliott> kmc: that article is way too long and bullshit
05:10:55 <shachaf> Sgeo: AND WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT????
05:11:00 <elliott> the only thing anyone needs to know about PHP is http://catseye.tc/about/php.html
05:11:05 <kmc> the problem with PHP is that anyone halfway competent gives up on it and switches to something, anything else
05:11:24 <Sato0x> I don't see how that's bad
05:11:39 <elliott> `addquote <kmc> the problem with PHP is that anyone halfway competent gives up on it and switches to something, anything else <Sato0x> fact <Sato0x> I don't see how that's bad
05:11:42 <HackEgo> 830) <kmc> the problem with PHP is that anyone halfway competent gives up on it and switches to something, anything else <Sato0x> fact <Sato0x> I don't see how that's bad
05:11:50 <elliott> * Cannot join ##esoteric (Channel is invite only).
05:11:53 <monqy> are you really bothering arguing with someone who thinks php is good
05:12:05 <kmc> Sato0x: uh, it's bad because all PHP code and the interpreter itself is written by idiots who give bad advice?
05:12:07 <monqy> i misspeleled @esoptermci
05:12:15 <shachaf> > (compare `on` take 1) "hi" "hey"
05:12:28 <elliott> kmc: he was responding to my statement i think
05:12:30 <zzo38> Well, I have written programs in PHP, and have emulated partially applied functions and so on. The FurryScript engine is written in PHP. Icoruma is written in PHP but I might rewrite it in something else. However, Internet Quiz Engine (more modern than those two programs) is written in C; it is better idea.
05:12:38 <elliott> Sato0x: "create_function is basically a wrapper around eval. It creates a function with a regular name and installs it globally (so it will never be garbage collected—don’t use in a loop!). It doesn’t actually know anything about the current scope, so it’s not a closure. The name contains a NUL byte so it can never conflict with a regular function (because PHP’s parser fails if there’s a NUL in a file anywhere)." also not an opinon
05:12:44 <elliott> Sato0x: "Declaring a function named __lambda_func will break create_function—the actual implementation is to eval-create the function named __lambda_func, then internally rename it to the broken name. If __lambda_func already exists, the first part will throw a fatal error." also not an opinion
05:12:47 <kmc> http://use.perl.org/use.perl.org/_Aristotle/journal/33448.html
05:12:53 <kmc> if (size > INT_MAX || size <= 0)
05:12:55 <zzo38> elliott: create_function is very stupid *never* use it
05:12:57 <kmc> float size;
05:13:03 <kmc> THIS IS HOW THE PHP INTERPRETER WORKS
05:13:10 <elliott> "parse_str parses a query string, with no indication of this in the name. Also it acts just like register_globals and dumps the query into your local scope as variables, unless you pass it an array to populate. (It returns nothing, of course.)" also not an opinion
05:13:18 <kmc> http://phpsadness.com/sad/47 who needs to compare the other half of your password hash, anyway?
05:13:26 <shachaf> kmc: Wow, those PHP people. "size" should be a double.
05:13:32 <kmc> srsly shachaf
05:14:07 <kmc> they wanted to check if the malloc size would overflow
05:14:19 <kmc> so they checked the int against INT_MASH
05:14:20 <zzo38> PHP does have a feature that a callback can be not only the name of a function but can also be an object together with the name of one of its methods; this can be used to emulate partially applied functions
05:14:29 <elliott> that's the greatest constant ever
05:14:30 <kmc> frash prugin
05:14:53 <shachaf> this can be used to emulate partially applied functions, and also some other types of functions
05:15:17 <zzo38> It is one of the best features of PHP, and is still not very good. That shows you that PHP is not very good.
05:15:21 <kmc> but after they realized that comparing an int to INT_MAX is no use
05:15:24 <kmc> they changed it to a float
05:16:07 <Sato0x> I've never had to use create_function..
05:16:21 <Sato0x> none of the things stated have been problems for me
05:16:58 <kmc> i put some scorpions down my pants just now
05:17:01 <kmc> no stings yet
05:17:12 <monqy> ive been living with scorpions in my pants for ten years
05:17:17 <kmc> so i feel justified in ignoring the very long and detailed "don't put scorpions down your pants" blog article
05:17:31 <elliott> (the sting party is ##php)
05:17:42 <elliott> (everyone just awkwardly gazing at everyone else's scrotch-scorpions)
05:17:47 <elliott> ("mine isn't stinging properly")
05:17:56 <elliott> ("oh it's glued up, let me help you")
05:18:07 <elliott> (i don't remember typing scrotch
05:18:09 <zzo38> Maybe they are dead
05:18:27 <zzo38> That is why they are not stinging properly
05:18:29 <monqy> i nurture my scorpions daily, and replace them when they die
05:18:29 <elliott> as they say, don't put scorpions down your pants unless you can deal with the glue
05:18:33 <monqy> i give them proper burials
05:18:39 <monqy> Sato0x: who says that
05:18:49 <monqy> Sato0x: if any of my friends said that i would stop being friends with that friend
05:19:02 <Sato0x> I heard it on the radio actually
05:19:04 <elliott> once i committed genocide against an entire continent
05:19:09 <Sato0x> then people from school were saying it
05:19:16 <elliott> and we had a crotch scorpion sting party
05:19:19 <monqy> shachaf: do you say "haters gonna hate"
05:19:27 <elliott> shachaf doesn't say "haters gonna hate"
05:19:31 <elliott> he says "\"haters gonna hate\""
05:19:46 <shachaf> "\"\\\"haters gonna hate \\\"\""
05:20:04 <elliott> BREAKING NEWS saxophone mathematician invents saxiom of choice
05:20:38 <zzo38> What is a "saxiom of choice"? Is that anything like "axiom of choice"?
05:21:25 <Sato0x> Stubbornness will block enlightenment, but will lead to random negative remarks
05:21:42 <monqy> Sato0x wisdom, by Sato0x
05:21:44 <shachaf> kmc: Are you supposed to compare password hashes with ==, anyway?
05:21:52 <shachaf> I mean, I guess you don't have to worry about timing attacks in general.
05:22:10 <shachaf> You might still leak the first few bytes that way...
05:22:12 <kmc> shachaf: programming in PHP is easy, you just need to not make any mistakes
05:22:25 <shachaf> I mean in general, not just PHP.
05:22:50 <shachaf> The question is whether you should use a constant-time comparison function for password hashes. It's probably not a big deal.
05:23:13 <Sato0x> I hate fruit juice because a bug might have touched the fruit
05:23:16 <zzo38> You are entitled to your opinion.
05:23:23 <Sato0x> therefore I will never drink a fruit juice
05:23:30 <monqy> you're a bad person
05:23:32 <Sato0x> analogous to this situation
05:23:33 <monqy> fruit juice is good
05:23:37 <kmc> shachaf: if you're using PHP then timing attacks are like your last concern
05:23:38 <zzo38> You don't like a bug juice too?
05:23:48 <shachaf> kmc: This isn't about PHP anymore!
05:24:03 <shachaf> kmc: I've made an effort to get PHP out of my head. You keep putting it back. :-(
05:24:07 <kmc> fair point then
05:24:10 <elliott> > (<?php echo "help" ?> welcome to my web page)ok
05:24:22 <elliott> it must be a great language!!!
05:24:35 <shachaf> kmc: You've switched from "," to ":" as the nick-addressing character. I assume this has to do with your client switch.
05:24:39 <kmc> haskell is the cloudscale language for the post-PHP world
05:24:40 <elliott> > (<?php echo "help" ?> welcome to my web page)ok
05:24:43 <kmc> shachaf: yes
05:24:45 <shachaf> But ":" is the One True Character, so I'm glad you've seen the light.
05:24:51 <kmc> it's so much more businesslike
05:24:56 <elliott> Sato0x: i'm sorry i doubted you
05:25:10 <zzo38> I prefer using : for that purpose too but you do what you like
05:25:32 <zzo38> I also use : after the "Dear" line in any letter I write
05:25:35 <elliott> kmc: i don't understand people who use "foo,"
05:26:01 <elliott> this code is all copyrighted btw
05:26:24 <shachaf> elliott: We've been over this.
05:26:24 <elliott> <elliott> @let welcome = 42; echo = (); to = (); my = (); web = (); page = (); (<?) = (const . const) (text "(help welcome to my web page)ok"); (?>) _ _ = undefined; php = undefined; ok = undefined; infixl 1 <?
05:26:34 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `hi'Not in scope: `monqy'
05:26:58 <kmc> Sato0x: great analogy bro
05:27:09 <kmc> a more appropriate analogy is
05:27:23 <kmc> "people keep telling me not to drink antifreeze, but it tastes great! haters gonna hate"
05:27:57 <Sato0x> stubborn people will try anything to put their opinions over facts
05:28:22 <kmc> "here is a detailed article about how antifreeze is bad for you. OH IT'S JUST OPINIONS"
05:28:26 <elliott> i think kmc is ignoring Sato0x's wisdom
05:28:36 <elliott> he puts two spaces after sentence-ending punctuation
05:28:39 <shachaf> kmc: I can tell that you miss the conversations of #haskell
05:28:48 <monqy> hey, I put two spaces after sentence-ending punctuation! sometimes.
05:29:00 <monqy> other times I put spaces before sentence ending punctuation !!!instead
05:29:07 <kmc> i put \r\n after sentence-ending punctuation
05:29:11 <monqy> is your stomach churned
05:29:52 <Sato0x> antifreeze is a bit different than php
05:29:59 <Sato0x> -.-, but haters gonna hate
05:30:22 <kmc> yes, drinking antifreeze is bad for only one person, while writing websites in PHP is a danger to society at large
05:30:25 <monqy> how antifreeze is a bitt different than php
05:30:26 <kmc> so they are quite different
05:30:30 <monqy> and how -.-, but haters gonna hate
05:30:40 <monqy> i need to know about -.-, but haters gonna hate
05:30:42 <kmc> haters gonna make som valid points
05:31:02 <shachaf> `addquote <kmc> haters gonna make som valid points
05:31:02 <elliott> http://www.topatoco.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TO&Product_Code=PFSC-HATERS&Category_Code=PFSC
05:31:05 <HackEgo> 831) <kmc> haters gonna make som valid points
05:31:06 <zzo38> But one of the most portable programming languages is TeX. TeX is very good for typesetting and occasionally other things are done too.
05:31:16 <elliott> that quote is now (c) pfsc forever :'(
05:31:21 <elliott> quotes "the copyright violation"
05:31:24 <shachaf> Calling TeX portable is a bit funny.
05:31:31 <monqy> kmc, shachaf "under arest for copeyright vioplation"
05:31:41 <monqy> do not collect $200
05:31:41 <shachaf> By the way, I can make TeX on my system segfault!
05:31:50 <zzo38> shachaf: Really? TeX is very portable. That is, if it is true Plain TeX.
05:31:55 <monqy> one time I segfaulted cpython
05:31:58 <elliott> anyway can we just ban Sato0x for saying "haters gonna hate"
05:32:04 <zzo38> shachaf: Can you show how?
05:32:14 <elliott> monqy: one time I segfaulted GHC!
05:32:25 <shachaf> zzo38: "portable" if you count a special-purpose program that *compiles it to another programming language* just so it'll run on newer systems.
05:32:35 <monqy> I dodn't do enough ghc black magic
05:32:38 <Sato0x> ->can't think of a way to make php sound bad
05:32:46 <Sato0x> ->compares it to antifreeze
05:32:49 <zzo38> I have segfaulted GHC a few times too
05:32:50 <shachaf> zzo38: Not a program that translates Pascal to C: A program that translates TeX-written-in-Pascal to TeX-written-in-C.
05:32:58 <monqy> Sato0x: but isn't that a way to make php sound bad ?? help
05:33:06 <zzo38> shachaf: I am refering to programs written in TeX; not a program that compiles TeX.
05:33:13 <elliott> monqy: antifreeze is REALLY USEFUL!!!!
05:33:16 <elliott> *antifreese (british english)
05:33:24 <monqy> elliott: so is php, man
05:33:29 <zzo38> And tell me how you make TeX to segfault
05:33:33 <monqy> wikipedia was made possible by the power of php
05:33:36 <elliott> Sato0x: anyway there's a channel where everyone loves php and you should go and talk to them about it
05:33:41 <monqy> imagine a world without wikipedia
05:33:57 <elliott> the ESOLANG WIKI runs on PHP!!!!
05:34:00 <zzo38> That is true; MediaWiki is written in PHP.
05:34:01 <elliott> WE ARE AGENTS OF OUR OWN UNDOING
05:34:08 <monqy> imagine a world without brainfuck derivatives
05:34:12 <kmc> wikipedia is written in PHP and there is absolutely no way they could have used any other language
05:34:15 <elliott> brainfuck derivatives like php
05:34:16 <kmc> truly PHP is the best of all possible worlds
05:35:07 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sat Apr 14 06:35:37
05:35:16 <lambdabot> Local time for Sato0x is Sat Apr 14 01:35:07 2012
05:35:25 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Fri Apr 13 22:35:22 2012
05:36:07 -!- asiekierka has joined.
05:36:13 <elliott> http://detain.me/tools/aimspem.php kmc i think your aim is going to get hecked by Sato0x
05:36:32 <kmc> if evolution is true then why does haskell.org use PHP
05:36:34 <kmc> checkmate atheists
05:37:10 <zzo38> kmc: The reason is because they use MediaWiki; it has nothing to do with evolution
05:37:14 <shachaf> kmc: Sadly, evolution is the main cause of that. :-(
05:37:19 <elliott> it's well known that you can't heck aim with haskell
05:37:56 <Sato0x> I'm not sure how someone can actually compulse
05:38:48 <zzo38> Sato0x: I don't particularly like PHP either but I have written some programs using it, such as the FurryScript interpreter.
05:38:51 <elliott> in a pile on the floor here
05:39:09 <elliott> i tried to follow Sato0x on twitter for more insights but the twitter account on http://detain.me/contact/ doesn't exist :'(
05:39:24 <elliott> so much for my life as a twit
05:39:31 <elliott> did you know Twitter isn't written in PHP?
05:39:33 <elliott> that's why it's always down
05:39:57 <zzo38> Sato0x: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/FurryScript
05:40:33 <shachaf> elliott is secretly scared of roar
05:40:39 <kmc> shit i visited the website
05:40:45 <kmc> and my computr is brodacsting an ip address
05:40:53 <kmc> aim hecker
05:41:15 <kmc> aim hecker (n): when ur dronk and u pee so bad all over the toilet that ppl make fun of u
05:41:24 <kmc> (corruption of "aim heckler")
05:41:35 <elliott> `addquote <kmc> aim hecker (n): when ur dronk and u pee so bad all over the toilet that ppl make fun of u <kmc> (corruption of "aim heckler")
05:41:37 <shachaf> Sato0x: are you "for real though" as they say
05:41:38 <HackEgo> 832) <kmc> aim hecker (n): when ur dronk and u pee so bad all over the toilet that ppl make fun of u <kmc> (corruption of "aim heckler")
05:41:46 <kmc> as the kids these days say
05:41:55 <shachaf> Sato0x: Wait, I shouldn't get credit for that.
05:42:03 <shachaf> 22:41 <elliott> is this guy "for real though" as they say
05:42:05 <elliott> <elliott> is this guy "for real though" as they say
05:42:34 -!- elliott has set topic: <kmc> aim hecker (n): when ur dronk and u pee so bad all over the toilet that ppl make fun of u | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
05:42:36 <shachaf> elliott: how can it be corpproright infragment, when u are not corporal
05:42:37 <elliott> our topic was too long anyway
05:42:40 <kmc> they are totally silent (electric engines)
05:42:43 <elliott> shachaf: no its coproright infringement
05:43:01 <shachaf> elliott: Oh, nice job on the -blah topic.
05:43:41 <elliott> fool who dont drink no antifreeze
05:43:45 <shachaf> elliott: The one in the #-blah topic.
05:43:48 <elliott> and dont put no invigorating scorpion down my pants
05:43:52 <kmc> YOU'RE WINNER !
05:44:07 <Sato0x> Does anyone here know malbolge?
05:44:26 <monqy> my friends names malegoblg, that's almost malbolge
05:44:33 <monqy> (i know my friend)
05:44:36 <zzo38> I don't want you to put anything down my pants either (whether it is scorpions or not)
05:44:39 <Sato0x> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Malbolge
05:44:50 <elliott> will it heck me and give me a virus
05:45:11 <shachaf> WITH HIS BOW AND ARROW OR, ALTERNATIVELY, RETRACTABLE ARM?
05:45:34 <elliott> Sato0x: that link is broken man
05:46:02 -!- cswords has joined.
05:46:30 <monqy> maybe you meant: malbulge, malbugle, hello
05:46:44 <Sato0x> and went down for some reason
05:47:04 <Sato0x> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malbolge
05:47:18 <elliott> Sato0x: oh the link works now!
05:47:29 <elliott> goes to a page with some information about some really weird esoteric language
05:47:49 * kmc invents 500 new langugaes which are trivial variations on Malbolge
05:47:55 <monqy> better crack open the antifreeze
05:48:15 <kmc> yeah i wouldn't want to freeze while i'm working
05:48:19 <Sato0x> you guys are all fired up
05:48:22 <elliott> Sato0x: hmm, the language doesn't appear to be called malbolge on this page...
05:48:26 <elliott> can you double-check you got the right link?
05:48:28 <kmc> i poured antifreeze all over my computer
05:48:29 <monqy> i don't want my crotch scorpions to freeze
05:48:32 <monqy> in this cold weather
05:48:34 <kmc> but it still has trouble with flash videos
05:48:43 <zzo38> Let's invent the exactly googolplex number of chess variants
05:48:43 <monqy> it was thunderstorming today; they went crazy down there
05:48:59 <kmc> Sato0x: more like all fired up on PCP
05:49:16 <elliott> Sato0x: can you double check it please :(
05:49:19 <monqy> that's just one letter off from php
05:49:29 <shachaf> Hot grits on your scorpions?
05:49:58 <shachaf> Natalie Portman and scorpions?
05:50:09 <kmc> gay scorpions from outer space
05:50:16 <elliott> because you're going to have to be
05:50:19 <elliott> a little more specific about it
05:50:32 <elliott> but seriously that link is going somewhere weird can you please double-check it
05:51:09 <monqy> what about my moron, elliott?
05:51:15 <Sato0x> you've been blabbering about the topic for 45+ minutes
05:51:24 <elliott> because this is fucking hilarious
05:51:54 <elliott> oh the page works normally now!
05:52:02 <kmc> yes we're having a very serious discussion about PHP and gay scorpians
05:52:07 <kmc> we are so piiiiissssssed at you Sato0x
05:52:11 <kmc> why did you question our groupthink
05:52:22 <elliott> are pristine female specimens
05:52:23 <monqy> i have a special relationship with my scorpions
05:52:28 <kmc> NOT THAT THERES ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT
05:53:14 <elliott> kmc i tried to use haskell to control my nuclear reactor, if you know what i mean
05:53:21 <elliott> the only bindings i could find were for php
05:53:30 <elliott> you really do just need php
05:53:39 <kmc> you better go swimming in the containment pool
05:54:00 <kmc> NOT AS DISGUSTING AS PHP, AM I RITE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
05:54:33 <zzo38> Don't repeat yourself
05:55:03 <kmc> ＲＲＲＲＲＲＲＲＲＲＲＲＲＲＲＲ
05:55:05 <zzo38> Don't repeat yourself that many times all at once unless you have something to say please
05:55:14 <elliott> but they were all RRRRRRRRRRRRR
05:55:16 <Sato0x> 'been about 50 minutes now
05:55:25 <monqy> thanks for keeping the time, Sato0x
05:55:39 <kmc> \\\\\\\'been about 50 minutes now
05:55:40 <monqy> I don't know what I'd do without you, and also php
05:55:56 <monqy> hey did you guys see that cobol.com video?
05:56:00 <elliott> kmc: i regstered ur global
05:56:10 <elliott> "With 50 years under its belt, Cobol is set to remain the dominant language for business applications for the next 50 years. Having consistently seen off the young pretenders, Cobol has continued to evolve to meet every new demand thrown at it, from both business and technology."
05:56:16 <elliott> they trying to make cobol hip
05:56:22 <elliott> "Business applications written in Cobol are faster, more precise and more powerful than ever. And now it’s easier than ever to run them on the platforms that make the most business sense – now and in the future.
05:56:22 <elliott> The future’s never been brighter for Cobol. And that’s got to make life better for you, too."
05:56:33 <dbelange> stop talking about cobol this is #esoteric
05:56:35 <kmc> they should get coball.er
05:56:37 <dbelange> let's talk about haskell some more
05:56:38 <elliott> its kind of like antifreeze
05:56:40 <elliott> if you put it in your pants
05:56:44 <elliott> the scorpion doesn't bite as much
05:57:05 <monqy> you should watch the video
05:57:34 <elliott> "to take the enterprise applications of the future ... into the next future"
05:57:38 <elliott> i dont see how cobol can do this
05:57:39 -!- Pikcles has joined.
05:57:45 <elliott> maybe we should stop the nonsense
05:57:52 <HackEgo> Pikcles: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
05:57:55 <kmc> can't stop can't stop can't stop can't stop
05:58:02 <elliott> hi Pikcles, we just spent 50 minutes making fun of someone who likes PHP
05:58:06 <zzo38> I expect whatever program I write in TeX to continue working in the future without any changes
05:58:13 <kmc> Pikcles: did you know your name is an anagram of "Ksplice"?
05:58:33 <elliott> kmc is the anagrams-of-ksplice expert
05:58:40 <kmc> i'm a domain expert
05:58:44 <kmc> this is my domain
05:59:02 <dbelange> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Wang_program
05:59:20 <monqy> my domain and home page is cobol.com
06:01:46 <elliott> these guys are rationalising cobol almost as much as Sato0x rationalises php
06:02:06 <elliott> "curly brace languages like java and c#"
06:02:26 <monqy> cobol is my antidrug
06:04:06 <monqy> my only cobol regret is that isn't php
06:04:39 <zzo38> If you have a type like (f x -> x) in Haskell in case f is Contravariant and Plus (the one without Functor) then can it make a comonad?
06:05:40 <monqy> tell me about how long we've been talking about this
06:06:04 <monqy> thumbs up, wink & smile
06:06:08 <kmc> Sato0x: this is all about you
06:06:11 <elliott> but what's the coolest php feature that
06:06:14 <elliott> you don't think everyone knows
06:06:35 <kmc> <?php gimme_five_dollars(); ?>
06:07:15 -!- Sato0x has quit (Quit: Page closed).
06:08:10 <elliott> sigh how do we stop them coming back
06:08:11 <monqy> there were too many
06:08:23 <monqy> he got overwhelmed by how many great php features there are
06:08:27 <monqy> and had to take a breather
06:10:00 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sat Apr 14 07:10:30
06:10:27 <monqy> do they have birds where you live
06:13:34 <monqy> I have ducks, but also other birds, and owls
06:15:42 <shachaf> hi elliott, shachaf, monqy, monqy
06:16:24 <elliott> monqy: step 3 wake up late :'(
06:16:41 <monqy> step 4 fun forever
06:17:00 <shachaf> step 3 hi poem, party, monqy
06:17:26 <elliott> your scorpion stops biting
06:17:29 <elliott> and you can't feel your legs any more
06:17:47 <monqy> Q: what time is it when your scorpions stop biting
06:17:51 <monqy> A: time to get new scorpions
06:18:00 <zzo38> Then you should rest or see a doctor or both
06:18:01 <elliott> how can i get new scorpions without legs
06:18:05 <monqy> Q: what time is it when your scorpions stop biting
06:18:09 <monqy> A: time to get new legs
06:18:35 <shachaf> Q:: what time is it when monqy stops saying hi
06:18:52 <elliott> monqy: where do i get new legs
06:19:07 <monqy> discount leg store "we sell discount legs, for less!"
06:19:13 <kmc> powered by PHP
06:19:23 <elliott> you rescued that from the brink of lossage
06:20:07 <kmc> i'm glad you all like my analogies
06:21:07 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sat Apr 14 07:21:37
06:21:11 <lambdabot> Local time for kmc is Sat Apr 14 02:22:09 2012
06:21:25 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Fri Apr 13 23:21:24 2012
06:21:32 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Fri Apr 13 23:21:30 2012
06:21:47 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving).
06:22:10 <zzo38> Can your Dungeons&Dragons characters ride on huge scorpions?
06:23:12 -!- Pikcles has quit (Quit: Page closed).
06:23:35 <elliott> i need to say ksplice three times
06:23:38 <elliott> ksplice ksplice ksplice mosh
06:25:27 <shachaf> But my timezone is in America. :-(
06:25:37 <monqy> shachaf's timezone is indeed in america
06:25:57 <shachaf> The sun never sets on the American Empire.
06:25:59 <elliott> where's the nearest timezone where it isn't half 7
06:26:10 <monqy> maybe the one where it's half 6
06:26:18 <monqy> or half 8, if you prefer that way
06:26:46 <lambdabot> Local time for zzo38 is currently free
06:27:01 <monqy> I want to be in zzo38's time
06:27:07 <monqy> it sounds like a good time
06:27:44 <elliott> i'm not even convinced zzo38 has time
06:27:49 <shachaf> I heard zzo38 has free beer.
06:28:38 <shachaf> Free beer in the category of endofunctors.
06:29:43 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sat Apr 14 07:30:13
06:30:06 <elliott> i have officially wasted like an hour and a half
06:30:11 <elliott> i hope you're all proud of yourselves
06:30:13 <zzo38> What is your sidereal time?
06:31:39 <shachaf> 23:29 CTCP TIME reply from zzo38: 11h,39m,42s Sidereal Time
06:31:48 <shachaf> zzo38: I didn't send you a CTCP TIME request. :-(
06:31:54 <kmc> Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 31st day of Discord in the YOLD 3178
06:32:06 <lambdabot> Local time for zzo38 is 2012/04/13 23:23:12 -0700
06:35:06 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
06:45:59 <kmc> discordian calendar
06:46:07 <kmc> /usr/bin/ddate
06:46:33 <asiekierka> kmc: which package includes it? i'd like to add it to my distro
06:46:40 <kmc> which distro do you maintain
06:46:54 <asiekierka> and it doens't base on any existing package repo either
06:46:59 <kmc> in debian it is in util-linux
06:47:12 <kmc> which experimental libc? one you wrote?
06:47:15 <kmc> what is the experiment
06:47:16 <shachaf> Tomorrow I'll probably explain integrals to my sister.
06:47:23 <asiekierka> kmc: no, by experimental i mean actually standards-compilant
06:47:30 <asiekierka> the only thing i wrote for the distro so far is the package manager
06:47:48 <asiekierka> because all the other ones had either too many dependencies, not enough documentation or just plain failed
06:48:05 <shachaf> kmc: How's your libcfree program going?
06:48:52 <asiekierka> glibc is standards-compilant and also adds a lot of its own things, for compatibility or ease of use
06:49:12 <asiekierka> it also lets us see how many (quite a few, in fact) apps are not libc-compilant but glibc-compilant
06:50:55 <shachaf> Hmm, switch(x) case 0: case 1: ...; is valid C.
06:51:20 <kmc> shachaf: haven't done much recently
06:51:22 <kmc> been working on mosh
06:52:23 <shachaf> So in Windows that's apparently more or less impossible to do.
06:52:30 <shachaf> There's no kernel ABI stability.
06:52:44 <kmc> interesting
06:52:58 <kmc> yeah, I've heard that the Windows kernel API is much nicer than the usual Win32 API
06:53:15 <kmc> in linux tons of compat stuff is handled in the kernel
06:53:19 <kmc> which leads to tons of exploitable holes
06:53:23 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
06:53:47 <shachaf> Keeping all that in userspace is a reasonable design decision.
06:53:53 -!- Slereah has joined.
06:54:50 <asiekierka> i wish mosh didn't have so many dependencies
06:56:11 <qfr> What's mosh
06:56:26 <kmc> it's sad that dependencies are considered such a bad thing
06:56:29 <kmc> people frown on code reuse
06:56:38 <qfr> kmc what are you talking about
06:56:43 <kmc> anyway i have a patchset in for review which removes the boost dependency
06:56:48 <kmc> qfr: http://mosh.mit.edu/
06:56:48 <qfr> Reusing existing libraries is great!
06:57:13 <kmc> boost is a particularly egregious case because your distro will install 100 MB of binary libs, none of which we use
06:57:17 <kmc> we only include a couple headers
06:57:25 <shachaf> I thought boost was all headers.
06:57:30 <qfr> shachaf haha
06:57:41 <qfr> shachaf well, there are pre-compiled headers
06:57:46 <qfr> Although I don't know if gcc supports that
06:57:55 <qfr> At least it has options for that for Visual Studio, I believe
06:58:01 * shachaf is exaggerating, but only by a bit.
06:58:14 <kmc> i'm glad we're using Protocol Buffers rather than rolling our own dumb key-value protocol like everyone does
06:58:22 <kmc> and making exploitable mistakes like everyone does
06:58:28 <kmc> that particular wheel has been reinvented way too many times
06:58:39 <qfr> For my last one I used JSON :(
06:58:43 <kmc> other than that and boost... ncurses and zlib are very standard
06:58:56 <qfr> boost is very standard
06:58:58 <kmc> utempter is actually optional although we don't document that very well
06:59:00 <shachaf> People don't care about code reuse.
06:59:04 <shachaf> They care about inconvenience.
06:59:06 <qfr> Developers do
06:59:09 <qfr> Yes, that too
06:59:27 <kmc> and we use one perl module (you can get by without the Perl wrapper script, if need be)
06:59:29 <shachaf> They don't like libraries just because of the hassle. They don't have anything *against* code reuse.
06:59:36 <kmc> so I don't think mosh has an unreasonable number of dependencies
07:00:31 <kmc> technically you can use mosh without ssh
07:00:31 <shachaf> If mosh is an SSH replacement then why does it depend on SSH?
07:00:45 <kmc> we do a bad job explaining that too
07:00:50 <kmc> mosh depending on ssh is like a burrito
07:01:04 <kmc> oh man, there is a new taqueria 2 blocks from my house
07:01:30 <shachaf> Probably better than the taquería 2 blocks from my house. :-(
07:01:35 <kmc> 's all right
07:01:39 <kmc> i'm withholding judgement for now
07:01:41 <kmc> need more data
07:01:45 <kmc> shachaf: I'm in Boston area...
07:02:02 <shachaf> But I regret going to that one every time I go there.
07:02:11 <kmc> the baseline for a burrito here is that like a guy wraps a rat in butcher paper and slaps you with it
07:02:57 <shachaf> Or back to NY. They have good burritos, right?
07:03:48 <kmc> i should move to SF
07:05:00 <shachaf> Did you know you can register keegan.mc?
07:07:00 <kmc> users don't have anything against code reuse, unlike developers
07:07:29 <shachaf> Developers have something against code reuse?
07:07:47 <asiekierka> kmc - i don't frown against code reuse
07:07:51 <asiekierka> it's just more work for me in this case
07:08:08 <asiekierka> i frown against code reuse only when you use, let's say, 1 function from a library
07:10:50 <shachaf> kmc: Do you have fun typing some text and then holding down backspace to delete the irssi prompt?
07:11:06 <shachaf> It's my new favourite thing to do.
07:11:52 <kmc> i was trying to find the minimum amonut of text to make it work
07:12:04 <kmc> depends on lag though
07:12:20 <kmc> also there's this one library that Mosh uses only a tiny part of
07:12:30 <kmc> and it's under a very permissive license
07:12:38 <shachaf> It doesn't work with one character because mosh needs to see the response from deleting the one character before it realizes that the current behavior is "deleting".
07:12:40 <kmc> so we just included the relevant source and build it ourselves
07:12:46 <shachaf> At least that's my mental model of what mosh does.
07:12:54 <kmc> this is fine *except* on Debian and Ubuntu
07:13:01 <kmc> they don't allow it because they have a package for that library
07:13:09 <asiekierka> well if they have a package you should install the package
07:13:13 <kmc> except their package is built with flags incompatible with the flags Mosh wants to build with
07:13:32 <kmc> it's incompatible *because* it's static
07:13:44 <kmc> https://github.com/keithw/mosh/commit/0eec0b60f0c5b3d94d5e382ea3d4aff35c879ed2
07:14:31 <kmc> i mean we could pick a policy fight with debian
07:14:35 <kmc> or i could write 50 lines of code
07:14:37 <kmc> so i chose the latter
07:15:09 <kmc> but it's pointless make-work
07:15:39 <kmc> i have some sympathy for the rule in general
07:15:56 <shachaf> kmc: You're not using the stddjb idiom of return (errno = EX, -1)?
07:19:48 <shachaf> sizeof values with parentheses is the devil. :-(
07:20:04 <kmc> shachaf: the correct model is not quite "we're in delete mode now"
07:20:14 <kmc> as soon as mosh-client sees backspace, it predicts a delete
07:20:37 <kmc> but it might not be confident enough to display predictions
07:20:41 <shachaf> I don't mean "delete mode", just "responding to keystrokes by printing them mode".
07:21:23 <shachaf> I note that when I type a few characters, it doesn't start predicting responses to the later ones until it gets a response to at least one.
07:21:27 <kmc> shachaf: what's wrong with parens?
07:21:38 <kmc> shachaf: right, after all you might be entering your password
07:21:53 <shachaf> "sizeof(x)" in C is like "foo(x)" in Haskell.
07:22:07 <kmc> except that it's consistent with everything else in the language
07:22:10 <kmc> including sizeof(x_t)
07:22:15 <shachaf> It's an operator that doesn't take parentheses, and it doesn't behave like one that takes parentheses.
07:22:38 <shachaf> For example sizeof(x)[y] === sizeof ((x)[y])
07:23:17 <kmc> i'll keep that in mind next time i want to array index a size_t
07:23:23 <kmc> but yeah, fair enough
07:23:39 <shachaf> http://mauke.hopto.org/stuff/c/sizeof.c
07:24:00 <kmc> i realize the parens are not necessary, but the consistency is nice
07:24:08 <kmc> does code where this is a problem arise in practice?
07:24:36 <shachaf> Some people use "return (...);" too. I think that's reasonably justified -- it's probably less ambiguous than sizeof. :-)
07:24:46 <shachaf> "foo(x)" works in Haskell too.
07:31:48 <shachaf> The VDSO is the first step to Windows-style "syscalls", I guess.
07:33:05 <kmc> except i don't think it will actually move in that direction
07:33:28 <shachaf> Well, they have to keep the kernel ABI stable forever now.
07:33:31 <kmc> right, foo(x) works in Haskell but is inconsistent with the rest of the language
07:33:39 <kmc> sizeof(x) is consistent with the rest of C. (sizeof x) is not
07:33:57 <kmc> i will do "return (...);" sometimes, not always
07:34:04 <shachaf> The parentheses around "sizeof x" are only necessary if "(sizeof(x))" would've been necessary.
07:34:05 <kmc> that's more obviously parens for grouping
07:34:14 <shachaf> Otherwise it's just "sizeof x".
07:34:14 <kmc> shachaf: I know
07:34:34 <kmc> «sizeof(x)» is consistent with the rest of C. «sizeof x» is not
07:34:58 <shachaf> This seems like a silly argument. :-)
07:35:29 <kmc> your point about siezof(x)[y] is valid and I had not thought of that before
07:35:33 <kmc> so i have learned something
07:35:42 <kmc> but all the same I haven't seen it come up in real code
07:36:09 <shachaf> C has very few expression keywords.
07:36:13 <shachaf> In fact, are there any others?
07:36:27 <kmc> you mean using letters rather than punctuation?
07:37:43 <kmc> can't think of one
07:38:18 <kmc> C++ has a fair few
07:38:30 <shachaf> "The sizeof operator yields the size (in bytes) of its operand, which may be an expression or the parenthesized name of a type."
07:39:10 <shachaf> I think another way of thinking about it is that sizeof always takes an expression without parentheses, but you surround it with parentheses in case it's a type, to reduce ambiguity or something.
07:39:37 <shachaf> Expression-keyword-symbols don't generally take parentheses either.
07:40:01 <shachaf> So I'm not sure how much "consistency with the rest of C" there is involved, unless you consider function application.
07:44:14 * itidus21 fires dodgeable segments of laser at shachaf from 50ft away
07:46:18 <kmc> yeah, I meant the more superficial consistency of "this looks like a function call"
07:46:26 <kmc> i realize such things can be misleading
07:46:33 <kmc> but in this case I don't see a big practical problem
07:46:38 <kmc> but of course that's argument from lack of imaginatino
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09:06:27 <shachaf> I am unable to golf below: cppbot: -w {for(int p=28075320;p/=2;)cout<<(p==6854?"- ":p&1?"way ":"pon ");}
09:08:12 <qfr> Nothing useful
09:08:25 <shachaf> 01:39 < cppbot> pon pon way way way pon pon way pon way pon - way way pon pon pon way way pon way pon way way
09:08:31 <shachaf> Came up in another channel.
09:09:04 <ion> shachaf: Huh. If it doesn’t use the idle IO priority, that sounds like a bug worth reporting.
09:09:06 <qfr> Doesn't ring a bell
09:10:23 <ion> <shachaf> My computer is rendered mostly unusable by the constant hard disk usage.
09:11:21 <shachaf> Well, it seems to be done now, so I've become apathetic again.
09:12:39 <kmc> what was your IO job?
09:13:07 <shachaf> I wish computers were simple.
09:20:20 <kmc> then they would suck
09:20:30 <kmc> you can build a shitty simple computer
09:20:49 <kmc> i do enjoy microcontroller programming for this reason though
09:21:43 <qfr> I still want to make my own ISA for some FPGA at some point
09:22:01 <qfr> And then write an awful OS with an IRC client for it
09:22:26 <shachaf> Most (?) complexity involved with computers is incidental, though.
09:22:29 <qfr> And then I can chat with it using some awful miniscule LCD screen and a PS/2 keyboard
09:22:38 <qfr> USB keyboard probably way too difficult
09:22:55 <qfr> If I'm lazy I can still just access it over ethernet
09:23:05 <qfr> Instead of writing drivers for periphery
09:23:10 <kmc> http://6004.csail.mit.edu/ is a really cool course where you design a RISC CPU at the level of logic gates
09:23:33 <kmc> so a bit lower level than usual FPGA work; the logic language is much simpler than verilog or vhdl
09:23:44 <qfr> I'd probably use VHDL
09:24:01 <kmc> USB is not *too* bad
09:24:02 <qfr> I did some superficial IC stuff at university
09:24:06 <qfr> USB is terrifying man
09:24:13 <qfr> The standard for that is like 3000 pages
09:24:14 <kmc> at least, you can implement it in software on a wimpy AVR uC
09:24:22 <kmc> sure but you don't need the full USB standard to talk to a keyboard ;P
09:24:55 <qfr> The class was like this http://siyobik.info.gf/misc/cmos-layout.png
09:25:11 <qfr> The exam would then ask "what logical function does this CMOS circuit implement"
09:25:49 <qfr> Takes me ages to decode stuff like that on paper
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14:42:27 <qfr> Wow, that's quite the quit message on Patashu there
14:42:35 <qfr> Should add his credit card number, too
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15:52:54 <RocketJSquirrel> OK, so this cheapo Chinese tablet is way, WAY better than logic dictates that it should be.
15:53:30 <RocketJSquirrel> Normally with these things you play the "find the redeeming feature" game, but in this case I'm playing and losing the "find the flaw" game.
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17:02:51 <elliott> hey is anyone 188.121.5.150 because that kind of exists already!!
17:03:20 <elliott> (Edit: is it stackoverflow policy to allow censorship of questions through editing (not minor)? It does say "always respect the original author.")
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17:56:30 <ais523> elliott: are we having this conversation in reverse, or something?
17:58:02 <elliott> ais523: If you ask me about the chronology of this conversation one more time, I'm going to end this conversation without even answering!
17:58:16 <ais523> meanwhile, I've been working on Elliottcraft
17:58:18 <ais523> not code, but thoughts
17:58:30 <elliott> i was fully prepared to carry that on for at least half an hour
17:58:34 <ais523> I'm going to make it work as a cellular automaton, finite speed of sound and speed of light makes it much easier to optimise
17:59:12 <ais523> and then I spent much of the rest of the time trying to work out how to implement 3D Hashlife efficiently when at least one of the colors has free will
18:00:10 <elliott> ais523: we had a php defender in here early this morning!
18:00:23 <ais523> hashlife in particular seems to scale badly with number of dimensions
18:00:31 <ais523> although 3 is probably low enough for it to work
18:00:53 <ais523> and wow, I thought PHP was only defended by misinformed people
18:01:43 <elliott> oh, they were most definitely misinformed
18:03:26 <ais523> also, this has a huge number of possible colors for a typical cellular automaton
18:05:23 <ais523> I can't really hate PHP defenders, I can only pity them
18:05:38 <elliott> ais523: you don't understand; they said "haters gonna hate"
18:06:12 <elliott> 07:19:48: <shachaf> sizeof values with parentheses is the devil. :-(
18:06:49 <coppro> programming languages final: what does the following do?
18:06:54 <coppro> filterM $ const [True, False]
18:06:57 <elliott> 07:22:38: <shachaf> For example sizeof(x)[y] === sizeof ((x)[y])
18:07:19 <elliott> coppro: you got that on your final?
18:07:48 * elliott thinks it's a pretty good question, actually; it's easy to work out mechanically, or if you have a strong intuition about the list monad
18:07:57 <coppro> well we had to define filterM first
18:08:02 <elliott> right, so it's even easier :P
18:08:03 <coppro> I did it be rewriting it as a list comprehension
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18:12:20 <elliott> 07:38:30: <shachaf> "The sizeof operator yields the size (in bytes) of its operand, which may be an expression or the parenthesized name of a type."
18:12:20 <elliott> 07:39:10: <shachaf> I think another way of thinking about it is that sizeof always takes an expression without parentheses, but you surround it with parentheses in case it's a type, to reduce ambiguity or something.
18:12:27 <elliott> shachaf: This seems like an argument for `sizeof (foo_t)` to me.
18:12:56 <shachaf> elliott: Right, m aybe it is.
18:13:54 <shachaf> elliott: You got a problem with my syntax?
18:17:12 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know I used to say "if("?
18:17:22 <elliott> I think Rob Pike says "if(".
18:17:25 <shachaf> elliott: I BET YOU USED TO PUT NEWLINES BEFORE YOUR {S.
18:17:47 <elliott> Other than before function bodies.
18:18:11 <shachaf> But you probably did it after every if.
18:18:18 <shachaf> Maybe you wrote code like this:
18:18:22 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Peter_Larsen
18:18:23 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:PLarsen
18:18:25 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/%C3%98rjan_Johansen
18:18:27 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Oerjan
18:19:26 <shachaf> elliott: You also used to declare values like this:
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18:19:54 <elliott> shachaf: No, I never do that.
18:20:00 <elliott> Did you know that Deewiant_ refers to the type as (char*)?
18:20:06 <elliott> Even though he declares the variables properly.
18:20:11 <shachaf> char* str1,* str2; /* - eliot */
18:21:12 <shachaf> char *(*fn[4])(char (*)(char), int, int);
18:21:28 <elliott> shachaf: By the way, I have frequently used hard tabs in C code.
18:21:39 <monqy> did you mix spaces and tabs
18:22:03 <elliott> monqy: Tabs for indentation, spaces for alignment, yes. (Although I rarely did any alignment when using hard tabs.)
18:22:34 <shachaf> elliott: are u linux toralavlardsddss
18:23:04 <elliott> shachaf: You misspelled Linyos Torovoltos. :(
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18:23:49 <zzo38> I always put the { on the same line as the declaration (if it fits), use only spaces for indent/align, and declare like this char*str1;
18:23:52 <elliott> h8rs gonna "h8', as they say.
18:24:04 <elliott> Yes, most of that sentence was half-quoted.
18:24:50 <zzo38> Maybe you hate my style of C programming but you are not required to use it you can do how you like
18:25:19 <elliott> shachaf: Have you seen ais523's C style?
18:25:37 <ais523> elliott: admittedly, that one is mostly trolling, but it's grown on me
18:26:21 <elliott> ais523: Tell shachaf about how all tabs are inherently 8 wide.
18:26:47 <shachaf> elliott: I like to indent my code with seven spaces followed by a tab.
18:26:55 <shachaf> To make sure it know what's up.
18:27:11 <elliott> I know I don't know what's up.
18:27:23 <shachaf> That's because you're not indented properly. :-(
18:27:28 <ais523> shachaf: pretty much every application that isn't a dedicated text editor, nor word processor, displays tabs as moving to a multiple of 8
18:27:40 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/s6isw/challenge_a_functional_freenet_xpost_from/ I like the part where the "challenge" is "please rewrite this large open-source codebase in Haskell for no good reason".
18:28:04 <elliott> shachaf: Ask ais523 why every program that lets you set how wide tabs are displayed as is inherently broken.
18:28:31 <shachaf> If ais523 want to tell me, they will.
18:28:42 <ais523> elliott: it's not setting it that's the issue, it's saving files that assume it
18:28:56 <elliott> ais523: I didn't tell you to tell me
18:29:03 <elliott> I told shachaf to ask you to tell him.
18:29:52 <shachaf> For compactness, I use U+1E2A41 ONE-SPACE INDENTATION
18:30:01 <shachaf> OR U+1E2A42 TWO-SPACE INDENTATION
18:30:09 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A43 THREE-SPACE INDENTATION
18:30:14 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A44 FOUR-SPACE INDENTATION
18:30:19 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A45 FIVE-SPACE INDENTATION
18:30:26 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A46 SIX-SPACE INDENTATION
18:30:31 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A47 SEVEN-SPACE INDENTATION
18:30:37 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A48 EIGHT-SPACE INDENTATION
18:30:40 <elliott> http://www.colorhexa.com/1e2a45 What a nice colour.
18:30:42 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A49 NINE-SPACE INDENTATION
18:30:52 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A4A A-SPACE INDENTATION
18:30:56 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A4B B-SPACE INDENTATION
18:30:59 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A4C C-SPACE INDENTATION
18:31:05 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A4D D-SPACE INDENTATION
18:31:10 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A4E E-SPACE INDENTATION
18:31:15 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A4F FIFTEEN-SPACE INDENTATION
18:31:22 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A50 FIFTY-SPACE INDENTATION
18:31:31 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A51 0x51-SPACE INDENTATION
18:31:41 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A52 OUTER-SPACE INDENTATION
18:31:41 <elliott> I think shachaf forgot how to count.
18:31:50 <monqy> hey, counting is hard!
18:31:51 <elliott> Surely outer-space indentation should be A51?
18:31:53 <monqy> I sure can't do it
18:31:54 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A53 HI-SPACE INDENTATION
18:32:03 <ais523> A, B, C, D, E, FIFTEEN is perfectly good counting
18:32:07 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A54 ZERO-SPACE INDENTATION
18:32:19 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A55 FIVE-SPACE INDENTATION, REVISITED
18:32:27 <elliott> ais523: 0x4F = fifteen to 0x60 = fifty is not
18:32:31 <elliott> ais523: 0x4F = fifteen to 0x50 = fifty is not
18:32:32 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A56 DOUBLE-SPACE INDENTATION
18:33:27 <shachaf> If I could count I would count.
18:33:32 <shachaf> But I can't count so I won't count.
18:34:06 <zzo38> This is how I write a C program (it is CWEB): http://repo.or.cz/w/TeXnicard.git/blob_plain/HEAD:/texnicard.w
18:34:12 <elliott> Can we publish those new Unicode characters?
18:34:30 <shachaf> elliott: Did you know the three advantages of Haskell are:
18:35:20 <shachaf> Which makes it the ULTIMATE PARADIGM TO WRITE FREENET IN
18:35:31 <zzo38> Outer-space indentation?
18:35:50 <elliott> shachaf: You should read TeXnicard.
18:36:09 <shachaf> elliott: Honestly, though, paradigms aren't worth much.
18:36:47 <shachaf> (DO YOU GET IT, FELLOW INHABITANTS OF AMERICANIA IN THIS CHANNEL?????)
18:37:50 <elliott> ais523: Can you kick shachaf?
18:38:02 <zzo38> It is the largest C program I have written which is not yet complete; the only dependency at compile-time is a subset of LodePNG, and there are no dependencies at runtime; however, you will probably want METAFONT or some other program that creates TFM/GF fonts, if you want to use this program effectively.
18:38:20 <ais523> shachaf: try toning it down a bit :)
18:38:34 <ais523> the ribbing of elliott
18:38:42 <shachaf> Wait, when did I rib elliott?
18:39:00 <shachaf> ais523: By the way, you should kick me.
18:39:53 <elliott> Sounds like consensus to me.
18:40:32 <zzo38> (If you want to use TrueType, OpenType, Adobe Type1, etc, then you will first need to convert it into TFM/GF format before they can be used for this purpose.)
18:40:58 <shachaf> zzo38: But I want to use Adobe Type1 and I hate converting fonts.
18:41:36 <shachaf> elliott: Did you manage to golf that C++ snippet down?
18:41:48 <zzo38> shachaf: Too bad... TeXnicard only support TFM/GF. If you prefer, you can modify TeXnicard to load Adobe Type1, but this is not recommended.
18:41:55 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10156269/haskell-data-type-error I like how this question is full of lies.
18:42:10 <zzo38> shachaf: Which fonts are you trying to use anyways?
18:42:36 <zzo38> shachaf: No I mean which specific typeface
18:42:53 <shachaf> It's called "Adobe Type1".
18:43:14 <elliott> shachaf: Do you like how that question is full of lies?
18:43:15 <zzo38> shachaf: Then you can use it.
18:44:06 <shachaf> zzo38: I'm sorry. That question was full of lies. :-(
18:44:24 <shachaf> zzo38: Would you forgive me. :-(
18:44:33 <elliott> shachaf: What C++ snippet?
18:45:25 <shachaf> elliott: {for(int p=56149304;p/=2;)cout<<(p==6854?"- ":p&1?"way ":"pon ");}
18:45:44 <lambdabot> forall a. (Integral a) => a -> String -> String
18:46:01 <zzo38> It is still preferable to use native TFM/GF fonts since they will use a different units of measurement. TrueType, OpenType, etc uses 1/7200 inch measurements, while TFM/GF uses 1/4736286.72 inch measurements.
18:46:03 <elliott> > comparing length "0x358c538" "56149304"
18:46:20 <elliott> > comparing length "puts" "cout<<"
18:46:28 <elliott> {for(int p=56149304;p/=2;)puts(p==6854?"- ":p&1?"way ":"pon ");}
18:46:32 <elliott> Oh, that outputs a newline.
18:46:36 <elliott> > comparing length "printf" "cout<<"
18:46:47 <elliott> > comparing length "write(0," "cout<<"
18:47:30 <elliott> > comparing length "6152*9127" "56149304"
18:47:55 <zzo38> The 1/4736286.72 inch measurements have a better potential of saving paper, when printing books and so on.
18:48:02 <elliott> > 2**(ceiling (logBase 2 56149304))
18:48:03 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraints:
18:48:07 <elliott> > 2^(ceiling (logBase 2 56149304))
18:48:13 <elliott> > 2^(ceiling (logBase 2 56149304 + 1))
18:48:19 <zzo38> Because they use traditional points instead of DTP points.
18:48:27 <elliott> > ceiling (logBase 2 56149304 + 1)
18:48:30 <elliott> > ceiling (logBase 2 56149304)
18:48:53 <elliott> *sigh*. (I was hoping for 1<<26-x or something.)
18:49:16 <elliott> shachaf: Wait, p==6854 is !(p-6854).
18:49:17 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
18:49:18 <elliott> So just flip the conditional.
18:52:41 <shachaf> elliott: ~1<<26-x would only work if the output was very regular.
18:52:54 <shachaf> Because the number is just a base-2 encoding of the output.
18:53:13 <shachaf> By "regular" I don't mean "regular", I mean "having a lot of one string or the other in a row".
18:53:26 <elliott> !cxx for(int p=56149304;p/=2;)cout<<(p==6854?"- ":p&1?"way ":"pon ");
18:53:37 <EgoBot> pon pon way way way pon pon way pon way pon pon - way way pon pon pon way way pon way pon way way
18:53:55 <shachaf> !cxx {for(int p=56149304;p/=2;)cout<<(p-6854?p&1?"way ":"pon ":"- ");}
18:54:01 <EgoBot> pon pon way way way pon pon way pon way pon pon - way way pon pon pon way way pon way pon way way
18:54:46 <elliott> !oeis 0,0,1,1,1,0,0,1,0,1,0,0,1,1,0,0,0,1,1,0,1,0,1,1
18:55:06 <elliott> @oeis 0,0,1,1,1,0,0,1,0,1,0,0,1,1,0,0,0,1,1,0,1,0,1,1
18:55:14 <shachaf> elliott: Now I want to make an IRC bot/website/whatever for team code golf.
18:55:25 <elliott> shachaf: That's called #anagol.
18:55:53 <elliott> (It's the channel for http://golf.shinh.org/.)
18:56:04 <shachaf> I mean a thing where N teams get a "challenge" and a time limit, and each team works together to golf it.
18:56:31 <shachaf> You could make in interesting in all sorts of ways.
18:56:33 <lambdabot> let(!)=div;f n=1:n:1:f(n+2);w@(x:y)%[a,b,c,d]|t<-a!c,c+d>1,t==b!d=t:w%[10*(a-c*t),10*(b-d*t),c,d]|0<1=y%[x*a+b,a,x*c+d,c]in(2:f 2)%[1,0,0,1]>>=show
18:56:40 <elliott> Come on, there has to be some magical sequence behind that.
18:57:52 <shachaf> elliott: After I was shown where the sequence comes from, I decided I don't want to know.
18:58:49 <elliott> !oeis 2,3,2,1,1,1,2,2,3,2,1,1,1,2
18:58:52 <elliott> @oeis 2,3,2,1,1,1,2,2,3,2,1,1,1,2
18:59:16 <shachaf> elliott: Almost all strings of bits aren't OEIS sequences.
18:59:17 <Mathnerd314> is there a string concatenation operator like + ?
18:59:48 <shachaf> elliott: And even if you find a sequence, the effort of decoding it will take more than N characters.
18:59:49 <lambdabot> forall m. (Monoid m) => m -> m -> m
19:00:08 <shachaf> Mathnerd314: + works, for std::trings.
19:00:39 <elliott> Maybe I should just gzip the output.
19:01:14 <shachaf> elliott: I hear that that's often the best way to win these. :-(
19:01:36 <elliott> Well, C++ doesn't have a gzip decoder in the standard library.
19:01:40 <elliott> So it would be quite a feat.
19:01:58 <shachaf> Which makes coming up with specifications tricky.
19:02:57 <shachaf> elliott: Anyway, you should definitely make that website/IRC bot/whatever.
19:04:43 <elliott> "Perhaps you'd better paste the exact code you use that gives an error together with the exact error you got, rather than the correct code and the error for some invisible code we can't see." Bruuuuuuuuuun
19:14:05 <shachaf> zzo38: What is better: TeXnicard or MSE?
19:14:38 <zzo38> shachaf: MSE is Magic Set Editor. I think TeXnicard is better even though it is not yet complete. Some other people also say so simply due to MSE being pretty bad.
19:15:03 <elliott> <haskkitten> so basically when Icant sum something I can use on
19:16:47 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Language_list&oldid=8
19:16:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Language_list&oldid=8
19:19:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's your favourite language!
19:19:16 <elliott> @tell oerjan Oh, "grm" means "grammar"! I assumed you were just mumbling-grunting at all the people who wrote bad.
19:19:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: *brainfuck
19:19:46 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
19:21:38 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
19:24:32 <elliott> heads up: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Pict
19:25:17 <elliott> <mauke> dysoco: x+x isn't x,
19:25:17 <elliott> <mauke> dysoco: it's twice as big as x
19:25:26 <elliott> <mcstar> i wonder if it would be hard to write a compiler for lisp in haskell, that could translate all of maxima, into haskell code, and have a full featured CAS in haskell...
19:25:55 <shachaf> elliott: Did you see the exciting adventures of yesterday?
19:25:58 <ais523> elliott: oh, I went to KFC yesterday
19:26:08 <ais523> and my opinion is: it's mostly very bland, and when it isn't you wish it was
19:26:09 <shachaf> Parallelism and I were having a char about parallelism and concurrency.
19:26:19 <ais523> I think I probably won't go there again
19:29:54 <shachaf> «hi,im 64 bit "char" :'(» - eliot
19:30:12 <elliott> shachaf: Anyway, link me up, man.
19:30:26 <shachaf> You're better off not reading them.
19:31:25 <elliott> shachaf: I totally want logs.
19:32:08 <shachaf> «i;ll cut dwon trees :'( - elliott» -- eliot
19:32:22 <elliott> ais523: You should kick shachaf.
19:32:45 <shachaf> ais523: Please, ais523, kick me!
19:33:08 <shachaf> 12:31 < zhulikas> how can I force evaluation of something?
19:33:10 <shachaf> 12:32 < mcstar> $!, !, seq, deepseq?
19:34:17 <shachaf> 12:34 < reinoud> what does it mean with: Use `+RTS -Ksize -RTS' to increase it.
19:34:20 <elliott> ais523: You should totally kick shachaf!
19:34:22 <shachaf> elliott: Why am I even in there?
19:34:24 <shachaf> 12:34 < rasfar> i'm in type constraint hell, can anyone help?!...
19:34:34 <qfr> +RTS? Isn't that some serial modem command stuff?
19:34:38 <qfr> No, wait, that was +AT0?
19:34:45 <elliott> 12:34 < reinoud> what does it mean with: Use `+RTS -Ksize -RTS' to increase it.
19:34:45 <elliott> <mcstar> reinoud: you must compile with -rtsopts
19:34:58 <qfr> Ohhh, that's GHC stuff
19:35:18 <qfr> shachaf too funny, just yesterday I discovered an interesting black metal band from Canada going by that name!
19:35:18 <shachaf> There should be a GNU Haskell Compiler and it should be called gch.
19:35:40 <elliott> I thought you had not swapped.
19:35:43 <elliott> So I swapped them to clash the acronym.
19:35:55 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:36:30 <shachaf> «shahcahef foiled myy jkoe :'( - eliot hird kick him - eliottt» - elliott
19:37:11 <shachaf> elliott: As they say in Hebrew, "ata hafachta veani hafachti uvechol zot ze nish'ar hafuch"
19:37:47 <elliott> ais523: I don't know what shachaf just said, but you should probably kick him for it.
19:38:38 <shachaf> elliott: (It means: "you inverted and I inverted and nevertheless it remained inverted".)
19:38:42 -!- ais523 has left ("<fungot> fizzie: it makes demons fly out of my window, washing the windows api").
19:39:26 <elliott> Now shachaf kicked ais523. :(
19:39:32 <qfr> As they say in Arabic, "ana la kaafir al yahudi wa 'ashadu muhammad al mahdi sharaqa"
19:39:44 <qfr> He doesn't wish to be associated with this channel
19:39:51 <qfr> Can you blame him? Can you?
19:40:20 <shachaf> «i can blame him :'( - eliot - eliot - eliot» - eliot
19:40:41 <shachaf> elliott: Does this channel have any ops other than oerjan and ais523?
19:41:50 <qfr> Hah, finally I know who the hidden ops are!
19:42:04 <qfr> No, that's "half ops"
19:42:19 <shachaf> elliott: Do they call cops "cops" in UKania?
19:51:18 <elliott> shachaf: Anyway, you should kick yourself.
19:52:05 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:53:35 <shachaf> hi KingOfKarlsruhe, monqy, monqy
19:54:48 <monqy> what is it with you and saying hi to me
19:55:44 <qfr> [21:43:37] <KingOfKarlsruhe> 896 users in haskell O_O
19:55:51 <qfr> 896 people who talk about Haskell
19:55:57 <qfr> About 8 of them actually code in Haskell
19:56:09 <monqy> haha it's funny because
19:57:35 <qfr> I fail to see how it's funny, it strikes me as rather alarming
19:58:02 <monqy> qfr: you remind me of itidus21
19:58:18 <qfr> What are they like?
19:58:27 <monqy> rather, you just reminded me of itidus21 right now. I don't know what you're like at other times
19:58:34 <monqy> itidus21 is itidus21
19:58:41 <HackEgo> itidus21 just made some instant coffee.
19:58:48 <qfr> I don't drink coffee
19:58:49 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
19:58:52 <qfr> I drink tea only
19:59:34 <qfr> No, Indian spice tea with cow milk
19:59:41 <elliott> the joke is : " people don't use haskell"
19:59:54 <monqy> my insides are hurting
19:59:56 <monqy> from all this laughter
20:00:00 <elliott> that's the crotch scorpion
20:00:11 <monqy> i just vomited from laughter
20:00:23 -!- Sleeptalik has changed nick to Tiktalik.
20:00:24 <shachaf> I once vomited from laughter.
20:00:34 <olsner> elliott: haskell users are not people?
20:01:16 <elliott> monqy: don't worry the scorpions like the vomit
20:02:31 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:02:48 <shachaf> oerjan: elliott would like you to kick me.
20:02:53 <shachaf> I, too, would like you to kick me.
20:03:07 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:03:12 <lambdabot> elliott said 43m 55s ago: Oh, "grm" means "grammar"! I assumed you were just mumbling-grunting at all the people who wrote bad.
20:03:29 <KingOfKarlsruhe> elliott: haha i've answered a question in #haskell KingOfKarlsruhe += 1
20:03:57 <oerjan> elliott: no, that would be "grmbl"
20:04:53 * oerjan assumes kmc has been dronk recently
20:04:56 <elliott> oerjan: well "grm" is shorter
20:05:08 <elliott> no, that wonderful topic arose from a fine hour-long discussion with someone who likes php
20:05:17 <elliott> they wrote an aim hecker in php, you see
20:05:32 <elliott> of course kmc is no longer with us. he awoke to find his aim thoroughly hecked.
20:06:18 <shachaf> elliott: Did you know .tm will only accept 10-year registrations?
20:06:24 <shachaf> Also, it costs >$100/year.
20:06:26 <oerjan> come to think of it, probably a synonym for crocker
20:08:05 <HackEgo> 832) <kmc> aim hecker (n): when ur dronk and u pee so bad all over the toilet that ppl make fun of u <kmc> (corruption of "aim heckler")
20:08:06 <elliott> maybe that will help you???
20:10:52 <olsner> no, it doesn't help me
20:12:00 <elliott> shachaf: "The minimum registration period is 10 years and the retail cost is US$1000 for the 10 year period. As we prefer you to use the services of a .TM accredited Registrars, please note that most of them offer discount off our retail price"
20:12:04 <elliott> That's just the price if you get it directly.
20:12:13 <elliott> See http://nic.tm/registrars.html.
20:13:14 <shachaf> elliott: OH, WELL, ONE REGISTRAR CHARGED *MORE* THAN $1000
20:14:23 <oerjan> 18:18:29: <elliott> I'm scared.
20:14:37 <oerjan> i'd assume he copied my pages...
20:15:13 <elliott> oerjan: Either that, *or* he's you from another universe, *or* he's stalking you and planning to one day kill you and wear your skin and live your life, *or* ...
20:15:35 <elliott> Also, this implies oerjan skipped all that fun PHP talk. :(
20:16:22 <oerjan> also, http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:PLarsen
20:16:34 <oerjan> elliott: the logs were _long_ today
20:16:52 <olsner> stalking you and planning to one day kill you and wear your skin and live your life sounds like fun
20:17:46 * oerjan considers browsing through it. but thinks it may be time to eat.
20:19:38 <elliott> I like the part where this guy has been using Haskell and Miranda for 20 years and still thinks we should have a magical expression that changes its value every time you use it.
20:30:31 <lambdabot> Data.Unique newUnique :: IO Unique
20:42:53 <elliott> <rasfar> kallisti, i wonder what i should do to best benefit from your presence?
20:43:24 <monqy> did kallisti quit #esoteric
20:47:05 <shachaf> did the old monqy quit #esoteric :(
20:47:20 <shachaf> everyone liked the old monqy
20:47:40 <elliott> I like how rasfar keeps complaining about problems with their code but refuses to post it because posting part of it means they might as well post it all and if they do that people will criticise it and it's secret.
20:49:58 <monqy> shachaf: new monqy is kind of like old monqy; he just doesn't say hi
20:50:28 <shachaf> monqy: but the old monqy was hi :(
20:50:59 <shachaf> "i wish the old monqy was still here. i miss the old monqy" - shachef
20:52:23 <monqy> shachaf: are you old monqy
20:52:37 <shachaf> monqy: old monqy is contained within you
20:54:33 -!- MoALTz has joined.
20:55:16 <monqy> old monqy really didn't say hi all that much until quite recently, right?
20:55:51 <zzo38> Does this Haskell class have any use? class Contravariant f => Counterpoint f where { counterpoint :: x -> f (f x); };
21:04:35 <oerjan> hm reminds me of dual vector spaces
21:05:27 <oerjan> and galois connections and stuff
21:06:53 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
21:07:35 <zzo38> oerjan: I don't know what those things are, but this is one such instance of this class: instance Counterpoint (Op x) where { counterpoint x = Op (($ x) . getOp); };
21:07:54 <zzo38> (It is similar to the instance for continuations, but on a contravariant functor)
21:09:29 <oerjan> zzo38: the dual vector space version is also of that form, since that automatically becomes linear if Op contains a linear function(al)
21:11:41 <oerjan> i assume Op x y = Op { getOp :: y -> x }
21:14:05 <oerjan> Op Void would be logical negation...
21:15:23 <Sgeo> Is it my fault old monqy said hi so much?
21:15:55 <oerjan> "fault" is not the word i would use
21:17:00 <oerjan> i don't remember a previous time when monqy _didn't_ say hi, so...
21:17:49 <monqy> Sgeo: you probably contributed heavily yes
21:17:57 <monqy> Sgeo: but it was finally shachaf that ruined it
21:37:17 <elliott> oerjan: that Op is defined in contravariant, yes
21:37:31 <oerjan> `addquote <ais523> and then I spent much of the rest of the time trying to work out how to implement 3D Hashlife efficiently when at least one of the colors has free will
21:37:32 <elliott> zzo38: I thought Counterpoint might be kind of like Contramonad, on top of Contraapplicative
21:37:34 <HackEgo> 833) <ais523> and then I spent much of the rest of the time trying to work out how to implement 3D Hashlife efficiently when at least one of the colors has free will
21:37:55 <elliott> contraunit :: f Void; contrazip :: f a -> f b -> f (Either a b)
21:38:21 <elliott> oerjan: did you enjoy the PHP discussion :D
21:39:03 <oerjan> elliott: cannot say i see the point much
21:40:03 <elliott> oerjan: It sounds like your aim is hecked.
21:40:37 <oerjan> otherwise, yes that's the story of my life
21:42:36 <Sgeo> ....free will?
21:42:55 <elliott> oerjan: maybe you could try aim hecking it again to put it back?
21:45:44 <elliott> oerjan: i hear there's a nice php tool for that...
21:46:42 <kmc> you're still talking about php
21:46:45 <kmc> over 9000 hours later
21:46:52 <kmc> why are you all such angry people
21:47:57 <elliott> kmc: well my aim was hecked
21:48:04 <elliott> now i can only aim my talkings at php
21:48:06 <kmc> i spent a lot of time taking psychedelic drugs with CS students and they tend to say things like ais523's quote up there
21:48:24 <shachaf> Before or after the drugs?
21:49:53 <elliott> kmc: is anyone really ever "outside" drugs
21:50:22 <elliott> does anyone want to tell hagb4rd how to type a backtick
21:50:43 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
21:50:59 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
21:52:18 <hagb4rd> thats bad because it's exactly what i want you to do hackego
21:53:12 <Sgeo> elliott, you played through the update?
21:55:25 <HackEgo> 2011-06-16.txt:11:39:31: <ais523> Patashu: I'm just quoting the changelog
21:56:28 <hagb4rd> i guess that's not what the cs students tend to say while on psychedelic drugs :(
22:02:39 <elliott> shachaf: What is the type of a closure, man?
22:03:26 <shachaf> elliott: I look in #haskell,
22:03:34 <shachaf> "haskell" on StackOverflow, /r/haskell
22:04:32 <oerjan> !cxx for(int p=56149304;p/=2;)cout<<(p==6854?"- ":p&1?"way ":"pon ");
22:04:38 <EgoBot> pon pon way way way pon pon way pon way pon pon - way way pon pon pon way way pon way pon way way
22:04:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, why do people say strong typing is unfriendly to beginners?
22:05:04 <elliott> because it hurts them with its strength
22:05:08 <elliott> "doesnt know its own streng" - strong typ
22:05:09 <shachaf> oerjan: We shortened it from that.
22:05:10 <Phantom_Hoover> It's really not hard to understand the basic principle that numbers and strings are different.
22:05:24 <shachaf> !cxx for(int p=56149304;p/=2;)cout<<(p-6854?p&1?"way ":"pon ":"- ");
22:05:24 <Phantom_Hoover> If anything, it's less intuitive for them to be the /same/.
22:05:29 <EgoBot> pon pon way way way pon pon way pon way pon pon - way way pon pon pon way way pon way pon way way
22:05:41 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: they say it because it suits their agenda to say it
22:05:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: consider THIS:
22:06:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Well Haskell had a daughter so he probably knew how kids worked??
22:06:37 <shachaf> oops monqy doesnttnst say hi :(
22:06:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: but can he give LOVE like a python can
22:07:07 <Phantom_Hoover> (Haskell Curry's daughter dated Alonzo Church's son, can you tell that this is my FAVOURITE FACT?)
22:07:22 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, probably, how do you think he got a child in the first place
22:08:01 <elliott> @pl \xs -> map (id &&& (`count` xs)) xs
22:09:09 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 11.0/20120312181643]).
22:09:19 <monqy> &&& sections, excellent
22:10:01 <monqy> all of these not-his feel so fake
22:10:02 <shachaf> monqy: If I called you on the phone would you say hi?
22:10:10 <monqy> I'm having hi withdrawal
22:11:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do *you* know what the type of a closure is?
22:13:47 <elliott> shachaf: The type of a closure of a is ∃s.(s→a).
22:14:49 <elliott> shachaf: I bet you didn't know that!
22:15:18 <elliott> @pl \x xs -> x : filter (/= x) xs
22:16:25 <elliott> shachaf: I BET YOU DIDN'T KNOW THAT
22:17:03 <shachaf> elliott: (a::*) -> ((s::*), s-> a)
22:17:25 <elliott> shachaf: No, the a isn't universally quantified, silly.
22:18:01 <elliott> I don't know a good name for "closure with value type a". :(
22:19:14 <elliott> (Of course, the statement "Closure a is isomorphic to a" is equivalent to the statement "this language has implicit closures".)
22:19:34 <monqy> thanks for the spelling
22:32:52 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined.
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22:33:01 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined.
22:37:53 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do *you* know what the type of a closure is?
22:38:09 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Hint: It's x.
22:39:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: A Haskell monad what?
22:40:03 <kmc> ahaskellmonadsayswhat
22:40:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Closure, i.e. a closure as realised by the one with the monad that I forget the name -- wait that's continuations FFS.
22:41:52 <elliott> kmc: Do YOU know what the type of a closure is???
22:43:11 <shachaf> forall a. s.t. exists a. a. a
22:43:21 <shachaf> Haskell needs a "s.t." keyword.
22:43:55 <elliott> oerjan: Specifically the question is "what is the type of a closure with value type 'a'".
22:45:08 <zzo38> I was off because I was playing Dungeons&Dragons game after I typed the message about Counterpoint
22:45:22 <elliott> oerjan: IT'S ACTUALLY ∃s.(s,s→a) HTH.
22:45:33 <shachaf> elliott: THAT MAKES MORE SENSE
22:45:49 <zzo38> shachaf: It looks similar to the Store comonad type
22:46:42 <zzo38> The store comonad is \s a -> (s, s -> a)
22:47:21 <elliott> Okay, a closure is ∃s.(Store s a).
22:47:40 <elliott> oerjan: Did you know that???
22:47:45 <elliott> I bet you didn't know a closure had either of those types.
22:49:38 <zzo38> I don't know what a closure is
22:50:55 <shachaf> zzo38: A closure is ∃s.(Store s a).
22:51:35 <zzo38> O, that is what it is.
22:53:13 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closure_(computer_science)
22:53:23 <elliott> It says it has to be a function.
22:55:43 <oerjan> ooh closures are comonads?
22:56:16 <oerjan> i suppose that makes sense
22:57:27 <oerjan> in fact that works with a _general_ comonad, i think
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22:59:11 <shachaf> General Comonad, commander of the colonel.
22:59:22 <elliott> <oerjan> ooh closures are comonads?
22:59:27 <elliott> oerjan: hm extract is obvious but what is duplicate doing...
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23:01:21 <elliott> I guess duplicate isn't really doing much interesting :)
23:04:12 <zzo38> Do you know what is the criteria needed for callCC with Codensity? I know that (Codensity (Const r)) is like (Cont r) so that can callCC (Peirce's law) but is there a more general criteria?
23:05:15 <elliott> oerjan: (I was wondering about the type of closures because I want a language without implicit closures)
23:05:30 <zzo38> I have noticed that: (Const x) is both Functor and Contravariant, regardless of x; if x is Monoid then (Const x) is also Applicative and Alternative
23:08:56 <Sgeo> elliott, Phantom_Hoover monqy UPDATE
23:10:38 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure I carefully asked if he wants to be on the list
23:10:47 <Sgeo> He said no matter how much he mocks, he does. Or was that you?
23:16:12 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Do you know what the Isle of Man is?
23:16:42 <shachaf> Hint: That area is so complicated, even elliott doesn't understand it.
23:17:09 <elliott> Nuh-uh! It's a "a self-governing Crown Dependency of the United Kingdom".
23:17:10 <shachaf> But what is it an island *of*?
23:17:29 <elliott> The best part is the part where the Crown Dependencies have nothing to do with the UK.
23:18:25 <Phantom_Hoover> It's effectively a self-governing bit of the UK; people who say otherwise are boring and you should give them a wide berth at parties.
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23:18:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It is not part of the uK!
23:18:40 <elliott> "The Crown Dependencies are British possessions of the Crown, as opposed to overseas territories of the United Kingdom."
23:18:53 <elliott> "Being independently administered jurisdictions, none forms part of the United Kingdom or of the European Union."
23:18:57 <elliott> The royals just own it, or something.
23:18:57 <olsner> so basically it's an island in england?
23:19:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Well now we know who not to talk to at the next #esoteric meetup.
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23:19:15 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, it's got no particular connection to /England/.
23:19:16 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: lol wait, the royal family fucking OWNS countries?
23:19:17 <olsner> (i.e. just like ireland)
23:19:26 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Well, "the Crown" does.
23:19:35 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I think "the Crown" means "symbolically, the royals".
23:19:43 <elliott> "But actually just 'the UK, sort of, except not really'."
23:20:05 <elliott> "it is no longer the private property of the reigning monarch and cannot be sold by him/her"
23:20:16 <Phantom_Hoover> It means "de jure, the monarch, de facto, the government".
23:20:17 <elliott> "The Crown is a corporation sole that in the Commonwealth realms and any provincial or state sub-divisions thereof represents the legal embodiment of governance, whether executive, legislative, or judicial."
23:20:31 <elliott> Does this mean our head of state is technically a corporation?
23:21:05 <shachaf> elliott: Isn't London also a corporation?
23:21:15 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: You see how complicated the UK is???
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23:21:31 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: I feel like I'm scraping a snow cone off the tip of an iceberg.
23:21:34 <Phantom_Hoover> So yeah, the Crown Estate includes over half the UK's beaches, nearly all the seabed and all of our oil.
23:21:38 <elliott> And the City of London isn't the city known as London.
23:21:41 <elliott> It's a tiny part of that city.
23:22:00 <Phantom_Hoover> ...All of the wild mussels and oysters in Scotland, for some reason.
23:22:01 <RocketJSquirrel> http://www.focalprice.com/CE0031W/HYUNDAI_A7_7_Capacitive_Android_40_Tablet_with_3G_WiFi_White.html <-- also, this device is way better than logic dictates it should be.
23:22:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Is the UK a corporation too?
23:22:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, if you go bankrupt or dissolve a company all property goes the the Crown.
23:23:12 <shachaf> can u be the crocwnwnn????
23:24:11 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the Archbishop of Canterbury is a corporation too.
23:24:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OK, so shachaf has so far been able to reduce cocky-about-the-structure-of-the-UK people into confusion twice.
23:24:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I think the sticking point here is that 'corporation' is way broader than the usual meaning; the usual meaning is just by far the most often used.
23:24:56 <elliott> I think we need to lock him up.
23:25:12 <oerjan> in the us, corporations are persons. in the uk, persons are corporations.
23:25:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, I've always known that I have no idea how the Crown works.
23:25:25 <shachaf> THE UK = SOVIET RUSSIA AM I RIGHT
23:25:31 <elliott> WHAT DOES VERONICA: OF THE CHAPMAN FAMILY THINK ABOUT ALL THIS
23:25:44 <elliott> Freecorporation on the land
23:26:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's like the UK is some massive codebase that's been ported from assembly to FORTRAN to COBOL and now nobody knows how it actually works.
23:26:53 <elliott> (Here, assembly represents feudalism)
23:27:00 <ion> Elliotts are people, too.
23:27:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Basically, corporations sole are offices (*not* people) which are assigned to a single person but are seperate from them.
23:27:48 <ion> That makes TeX = UK.
23:27:54 <Phantom_Hoover> So Rowan Williams is the Archbishop of Canterbury, but the Archbishop of Canterbury is not Robin Williams-- wait how is that less confusing.
23:29:05 <shachaf> elliott: Is there a word that means: "crown + uk + british isles + great britain + ireland + northern ireland + republic of ireland + scotland + england + commonwealth + overseas territories + crown dependencies + ..."?
23:29:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Are you *sure* Robin Williams isn't the Archbishop of Canterbury?
23:29:27 <elliott> "Robin McLaurin Williams[2][3] (born July 21, 1951)[4] is an American actor and comedian, and also the Archbishop of Canterbury." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Williams
23:29:34 <shachaf> olsner: oh ok thnx olsnerr
23:29:40 <shachaf> elliott: oh ok thnx olsnerr
23:29:49 <olsner> shachaf: this is my area of expertise you know
23:30:37 <elliott> I want \n to be my middle name.
23:30:39 <oerjan> rowan atkinson williams
23:30:55 <shachaf> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rowan_Williams_-001.jpg
23:31:06 <shachaf> Looks like a successful programming language designer.
23:31:44 <lambdabot> not an expression: `let there = light#'
23:31:47 <lambdabot> not an expression: `let there = light'
23:31:51 <ion> I want «' OR 0 = 0 OR 'foo' = '» to be my middle name.
23:32:40 <elliott> Wait, why did nobody tell me the Archbishop of Canterbury looked that awesome?
23:32:57 <ion> Sorry, i thought i did.
23:33:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: quick is he a raging homophobe or anything I want to like him.
23:33:32 <Phantom_Hoover> He's in charge of the CoE, so I doubt he has any terribly strong opinions on anything.
23:33:40 <shachaf> elliott: He is a raging homophone for Robin Williams.
23:34:11 <shachaf> (COME ON THAT DESERVED A GROAN)
23:34:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It looks like the nastiest thing he's said is [[Though acknowledging that he was simplifying the Church's position, Williams said in September 2010 "There's no problem about a gay person who's a bishop. It's about the fact that there are traditionally, historically, standards that the clergy are expected to observe." Asked what was wrong with a homosexual bishop having a partner, he said: "I think because the scriptural and tradit
23:34:49 <elliott> ional approach to this doesn't give much ground for being positive about it."[55]]]
23:34:53 <elliott> OK I will take a compromise position.
23:35:01 <elliott> I support Rowan Williams for Pope.
23:35:13 <elliott> I mean, he'd be a better Pope than whoever's Pope now, right?
23:35:25 <shachaf> elliott: COME ON, ONE LITTLE GROAN
23:35:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Not having been in the Hitler Youth is often considered a political advantage, yes.
23:36:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh man, I forgot the Pope was!
23:36:08 * ion groans shachaf.
23:36:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Can we hang him or something?
23:36:43 <elliott> Stop looking at me like that, you gotta kill religious leaders once in a while. :(
23:36:48 <shachaf> elliott: Apparently Rowan Williams is Primate of All England.
23:37:06 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: hey the hitler youth _was_ mandatory
23:37:07 <elliott> `addquote <shachaf> elliott: Apparently Rowan Williams is Primate of All England. <shachaf> CHECKMATE CREATIONISTS
23:37:18 <HackEgo> 834) <shachaf> elliott: Apparently Rowan Williams is Primate of All England. <shachaf> CHECKMATE CREATIONISTS
23:37:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I was about to say what oerjan did, but he cut ahead of me.
23:37:29 <elliott> Isn't there pretty strong evidence he totally enjoyed it?
23:37:35 <elliott> I mean, I forgot, but then Phantom_Hoover jogged my memory.
23:37:52 <Phantom_Hoover> WASN'T NORWAY NAZI FOR A WHILE MAYBE OERJAN WAS A HITLER YOUTH
23:38:09 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I think it was kind of like evil Scouts, it was probably pretty fun?
23:38:09 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: there is a bit of problem with the timing there.
23:38:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: PH............ they were Nazis..................
23:38:33 <shachaf> oerjan: Weren't you born in 1924?
23:38:51 <oerjan> shachaf: shockingly, no
23:39:09 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, you're old, people who were alive in WWII are old, Q.E.D.
23:42:44 <oerjan> lambdabot: i'd like you more if you stopped listening to that evil elliott guy
23:44:06 <oerjan> needs some cheering up
23:44:10 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
23:44:10 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
23:44:10 <myndzi> |\ /| |\ | |\ |\ /< | >\ /^\ /'\
23:44:42 <olsner> looks like someone is abusing his lambdabot privileges
23:45:03 <elliott> lambdabot: How do you feel about olsner calling your feeling abusive?
23:45:43 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Why doesn't HackEgo ever show emotion?
23:49:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, hey, the UK doesn't actually *have* many conventional corporations.
23:53:51 <elliott> oerjan: so, anyway, now I don't hate existentials as much as I used to!
23:54:41 <elliott> they're only useless in haskell because it has implicit closures
23:56:47 <elliott> oerjan: I'M GLAD YOU'RE AS HAPPY AS I AM ABOUT THIS DISCOVER
00:00:46 * oerjan wasn't aware that existensials were useless in haskell
00:01:47 <elliott> oerjan: well they usually are because you can just pre-apply them.
00:01:58 <elliott> like how (exists a. (Show a) => a) is String (modulo the precedence stuff which you can do too if you want)
00:02:13 <elliott> (exists s. (s, s -> a)) is a because all you can do is apply it, etc.
00:02:51 <elliott> forall s. Foo { initialiseState :: IO s, doSomethingA :: s -> IO (), doSomethingB :: IO () } --> Foo (IO Bar) where Bar { doSomethingA :: IO (), doSomethingB :: IO () }
00:02:56 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `='
00:03:05 <elliott> (plus http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2010/01/24/haskell-antipattern-existential-typeclass/)
00:05:14 <oerjan> Madoka-Kaname: > takes expressions, not declarations
00:09:44 <kmc> i wouldn't say they're "usually useless"
00:10:05 <kmc> but they are overused
00:10:21 <kmc> you could say that "null" is useless because beginners write code like "if null xs then ..." and usually there is a better way
00:10:30 <kmc> but no, "null" is useful in the right context
00:11:58 <elliott> kmc: well, "existentials are useless" may be a bit strong, but i haven't yet seen *any* use of existentials that wouldn't be better without
00:12:31 <elliott> I recently saw a case where they turned out to be the best option, but that's because it had several constraints from various libraries; IMO that points to a design flaw in those libraries (that they can only abstract that functionality through typeclasses, unreasonably)
00:12:42 <kmc> well your third example, with the IO
00:12:51 <kmc> if your objects *don't* have destructive update
00:13:00 <kmc> or if you just sometimes want to return (IO s)
00:13:07 <kmc> 's not uncommon
00:13:13 <elliott> I don't understand what you mean by either of those.
00:15:49 <kmc> anyway I think API design in Haskell is probably hopeless
00:16:05 <kmc> people spend their whole programming lives thinking about OOP design, and they still screw it up regularly
00:16:17 <kmc> very few people do enough Haskell programming to get the knack for good API design
00:16:43 <kmc> i've never seen a list of rules or guidelines and I expect the community would not welcome same
00:17:39 <kmc> a confounding factor is that the most popular OOP languages don't actually support OOP style very well
00:18:18 <kmc> in Java you have some classes which represent the problem domain, and a lot more SingletonVisitorProxyAdaptorFactory classes which represent basic control flow
00:22:02 <hagb4rd> there is no good oop design at all, at least none without a specific context.. in practise the requirements often are extended to a point where the initial design becomes unsatisfying
00:22:50 <elliott> kmc: let's put it this way: good API design in Haskell doesn't require as much care and avoidance of pitfalls as OOP
00:23:01 <elliott> because... it's just better
00:23:13 <elliott> so while there's less of a culture around rules and guidelines for API design, they're less necessary
00:23:41 <kmc> hahahahahahaha
00:23:46 <elliott> and, well, there's also the fact that the kind of person who is dedicated enough with learning haskell to get to actually writing a library with something you could call an API is probably going to be better than $average_programmer at designing APIs in teh first place
00:23:52 <elliott> i'm not saying haskell magically solves all problems
00:24:06 <elliott> but it's a hell of a lot easier to design a nice haskell api than a nice java or C API or whatever
00:24:10 <kmc> it avoids some of the OOP pitfalls but it introduces many pitfalls of its own
00:24:32 <kmc> like having to provide a way for the user to control strictness
00:24:50 <elliott> that's not necessarily a requirement of an API...
00:25:19 <kmc> and dealing with all the incompatible string / vector / iteratee types
00:25:37 <kmc> it's not necessarily a requirement of a library that it be good or useful
00:26:22 <kmc> Haskell API design also has the pitfall that the nicest API you can think of will often involve crazy GHC extensions or insane types
00:26:43 <kmc> so you have to balance API niceness against the level of sophistication required from the user
00:33:08 <kmc> you can call bullshit if you want elliott
00:33:19 <kmc> but i've found all of these to be pain points with Haskell APIs
00:33:26 <kmc> and you haven't provided any argument to the contrary
00:33:34 <kmc> they're not *always* an issue but neither are the standard OOP pitfalls
00:33:52 <elliott> if you end up requiring crazy GHC extensions for an API it's usually because you're trying too hard
00:34:09 <kmc> another pain point is that people write high level looking FFI bindings and don't f*cking make them threadsafe
00:34:12 <kmc> but that's not really Haskell's fault
00:34:28 <pikhq_> That's a failure of pain-over-IP protocol.
00:34:31 <kmc> haskellers have higher standards
00:34:59 <kmc> elliott: I think you're proving my point. you have the wisdom to understand that these GHC extensions are "trying too hard", but most of the people designing APIs don't
00:35:11 <kmc> i am not saying it's impossible to design a good API in Haskell
00:35:25 <elliott> is your point just "people are incompetent"
00:35:42 <hagb4rd> what is a good API after all? it provides functionality of which you don't need to know how they work. just put sth in, and get sth out.. right?
00:37:32 <elliott> kmc: were you this cynical before #haskell started burning you out
00:37:45 <kmc> elliott you're not understanding my point about APIs
00:37:48 <kmc> that's fine ok
00:38:31 <elliott> you seem to be acting as if I'm saying "API design is easy"
00:38:47 <elliott> whereas the actual statement you made that I am disagreeing with is "anyway I think API design in Haskell is probably hopeless"
00:39:15 <kmc> the statement i'm disagreeing with is "good API design in Haskell doesn't require as much care and avoidance of pitfalls as OOP"
00:39:22 <kmc> because, while the OOP pitfalls go away, there are new ones
00:39:33 <kmc> so I think it's hard to argue that Haskell API design is easier or harder on balance
00:39:50 <elliott> fine, but that's hardly "API design in Haskell is probably hopeless"
00:40:47 <kmc> well combine it with the fact that few people learn Haskell well enough to understand the pitfalls
00:40:55 <hagb4rd> what is the difference between a haskell api and one made java (e.g.)
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00:48:24 <kmc> elliott: I would hang around #haskell being cynical about how everyone else is too dumb to understand how great Haskell is
00:50:08 <kmc> and I still kind of feel that way, too
00:50:12 <kmc> so yes, I did get more cynical ;P
00:50:25 <hagb4rd> i don't know much about haskell, but i don't see why there can be such a big difference on how and what an interface is supposed to do
00:50:53 <kmc> you don't see because you don't know much about haskell
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00:51:08 <kmc> a lot of people only know programming languages which are very similar to each other
00:51:15 <elliott> @tell Phantom_Hoover i remembered
00:51:27 <shachaf> All programming languages are basically the same thing.
00:51:31 <hagb4rd> but if i use an interface, i don't really need to? am i wrong?
00:51:39 <shachaf> You press keys on the keyboard, something happens on the screen.
00:51:46 <kmc> you are wrong hagb4rd
00:51:51 <elliott> anyway the solution is to not care about whether other people are any good at API design or whatever
00:52:05 <kmc> for example in C a critical part of an interface is the contract for who manages memory passed into and returned from the function
00:52:21 <kmc> it's a major part of C API design, and a major thing people get wrong
00:52:25 <kmc> it's not a concern in Java or Python
00:53:22 <oerjan> hagb4rd: idiomatic haskell is distinctly _not_ object oriented, so naively translating an api which _is_ OO can become very awkward with excessive use of even more advanced features to fit OO into it
00:54:30 <oerjan> s/even more advanced/advanced type system/
00:54:59 <kmc> hagb4rd: this shows that API design in C has extra challenges compared to API design in Java
00:55:10 <kmc> there are of course challenges in Java not shared by C
00:55:30 <hagb4rd> okay, translating would be a problem, fair enough. but starting from scratch i could design a procedural api which pretty much works the same as a c api will do, or not?
00:55:32 <kmc> and so maybe you can imagine that there are challenges in Haskell not shared by Java, and vice versa, even if you don't know enough about Haskell to know what they are
00:55:44 <kmc> hagb4rd: yes, but it won't be idiomatic Haskell
00:56:05 <kmc> because in Haskell you only use imperative / procedural programming when it makes sense in the problem domain
00:56:39 * elliott (disagrees minorly, but not in a way that invalidates kmc's point)
00:57:17 <hagb4rd> sure, but it handles parameters (of an expected type) and produces some output (of another type).. correct?
00:57:35 <hagb4rd> without going into more details
00:57:47 <kmc> look you need to learn about haskell before this discussion can continue
00:58:14 <kmc> functions in haskell are functions, they don't have side effects and their output depends only on their input
00:58:26 <kmc> that means they do not map cleanly to the "functions" of C, Java, etc
00:58:51 <hagb4rd> that does not surprise me at all kmc
01:00:38 <hagb4rd> my point is, that the difficulties of designing an api is to declare those parameters (I/O) so they match all the use cases (and the ones which may appear in future architectures too)
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01:02:14 <kmc> hagb4rd: that is a very general statement of what the problem is
01:02:30 <kmc> that problem has all kinds of specific ramifications in different languages
01:02:38 <kmc> like the C memory management thing
01:03:36 <elliott> hmm, plouffe's inverter seems broken
01:04:46 <hagb4rd> afaik the code behind the api cares a lot of for its own memory management.. but there might be some special cases where it can make sense
01:05:13 <elliott> "Over the years since the sinking of the Titanic on 14/15 April 1912, many impractical, expensive and often physically impossible schemes have been put forward to raise the wreck from its resting place. They have included ideas such as filling the wreck with ping-pong balls, injecting it with 180,000 tons of Vaseline, or using half a million tons of liquid nitrogen to turn it into a giant iceberg that would float back to the surface."
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01:07:22 <kmc> hagb4rd: have you programmed in C
01:07:50 <kmc> you understand that, sometimes a function returns a pointer and you are responsible for free()ing that pointer
01:08:00 <kmc> other times a function returns a pointer and you need to be very careful *not* to free() it
01:08:09 <kmc> that is part of API design in C
01:08:15 <kmc> deciding who will manage which bits of memory
01:08:33 <kmc> it is user-visible API design, not an implementation detail
01:08:45 <hagb4rd> sure, but everytime the api expects a pointer it will get a pointer
01:08:55 <hagb4rd> and nothing more or less than that
01:09:38 <kmc> do you think that API design is only a matter of writing out type signatures?
01:09:45 <kmc> you have to say what the arguments *mean*
01:10:04 <kmc> i have the feeling i'm being trolled
01:12:12 <hagb4rd> i dunno, i thought we're talking about apidesign but somehow we arrived @ memory management.. nevermind
01:12:32 <elliott> turns out memory management is part of api design
01:12:57 <elliott> "Robert Ballard of the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution had long been interested in finding Titanic. Although early negotiations with possible backers were abandoned when it emerged that they wanted to turn the ship into paperweights" this article is fucking hilarious
01:13:14 <hagb4rd> so you're managing memory on business layer for example?
01:13:27 <kmc> in C you have to
01:13:36 <kmc> in Java that would be crazy
01:13:38 <kmc> that was my point
01:13:48 <kmc> the specific concerns of API design depend on the language you're using
01:13:51 <kmc> that was my point
01:15:12 <elliott> "On 17 July 1980, an expedition sponsored by Texan oilman Jack Grimm set off from Port Everglades, Florida, in the research vessel H.J.W. Fay. Grimm had previously sponsored expeditions to find Noah's Ark, the Loch Ness Monster, Bigfoot, and the (non-existent) giant hole in the North Pole predicted by the Hollow Earth hypothesis."
01:15:34 <kmc> "non-existent giant hole in the North Pole"
01:15:38 <kmc> HEY THAT'S JUST AN OPINION
01:16:01 <elliott> "They nearly stayed ashore when Grimm brought along a monkey called Titan, which was trained to point at a spot on the map to supposedly indicate where Titanic was. The scientists issued an ultimatum: "It's either us or the monkey." Grimm preferred the monkey, but was prevailed upon to leave it behind and bring the scientists instead.[21]"
01:16:15 <elliott> literally everything to do with attempts to find and/or recover the wreck of the titanic is hilarious
01:16:48 <elliott> this thing has to be one gigantic hoax
01:17:04 <elliott> "It later turned out that Sea MARC had actually passed over Titanic but had failed to detect it"
01:20:27 <oerjan> on unlikely places to have your wedding gatecrashed: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-17694043
01:22:15 <elliott> that's nothing. once i gatecrashed a wedding in a CHURCH
01:23:01 * oerjan wonders if the russians will make an industry of this like with the space tourists
01:26:22 <oerjan> hm i guess that bbc article doesn't mention that the helicopter was russian, i read that today in a norwegian paper
01:26:54 <elliott> do norwegians have a thing about russia
01:27:58 <oerjan> yes; it's called a shared border and industry on svalbard
01:28:44 <oerjan> so he flew by norwegian plane to svalbard and hiked with the russians via their 89 degree arctic base
01:29:27 <elliott> oerjan: ok by "shared border and industry on svalbard"
01:29:30 <elliott> do you mean "we hate their guts"
01:30:21 <oerjan> surprisingly amicable, really; just a few years ago we even managed to agree on _where_ the border is
01:30:41 <kmc> should i go to svalbard
01:31:41 <hagb4rd> things have changed since there may be a way to get that oil below the ice capes
01:33:00 <kmc> svalbard has almost free immigration
01:33:07 <oerjan> if you are a citizen of one of these countries you might even manage to work there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svalbard_Treaty
01:34:13 <elliott> oh by "go" does kmc mean "move"
01:34:27 <zzo38> I think a while ago someone in this channel try to think of coapplicative (and couldn't think of (>*<))? The thing I can think of is maybe like this? lowerChoice :: f (Either x y) -> Either (f x) (f y); It can be implemented on the non-empty list comonad, on identity comonad, etc
01:34:46 <elliott> zzo38: that's a well-known formulation iirc
01:35:11 <zzo38> I just used that it seem dual to liftPair :: (f x, f y) -> f (x, y);
01:38:06 <elliott> kmc: did you mean "move" or "visit" i can't actually tell
01:38:14 <elliott> oerjan: "Management of .sj lies with the Trondheim-based Norid, which is also the domain name registry for .no and the unused .bv."
01:38:17 <elliott> oerjan: trondheim has too much power
01:39:46 <oerjan> ah of course the russians have made it an industry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barneo
01:40:08 <hagb4rd> kmc, just bug you one more time :) i use the winapi a lot. can you point out an example where i need to handle memory management using the winapi`?
01:40:59 <kmc> i don't know anything about winapi
01:41:29 <kmc> elliott: i meant more like "visit" but i basically just asked because i thought the answers might be interesting
01:43:30 <elliott> "However, northerly winds cause the camp to drift toward the southeast at a speed of 0.8 km/h."
01:50:25 -!- ais523 has joined.
01:50:26 <hagb4rd> elliott: are you preparing for a polar expedition, or sth?
01:50:27 <oerjan> elliott: it seems that norid was established as part of uninett, which was originally maintained by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SINTEF, which was founded by nth which is one of the two main parts that merged into NTNU university [nb: RAS]
01:50:41 <ais523> apparently SQL was originally /called/ SEQUEL but the name was changed for legal reasons
01:50:49 * ais523 gets even more confused as to htf it's supposed to be pronounced, then
01:53:05 <oerjan> ais523: squeal, of course
01:53:14 <pikhq_> __builtin_prefetch should not have been an epic win.
01:53:20 <pikhq_> It *was*, but it should not have been.
01:53:32 <ais523> huh, something's seriously wrong if adding it has any noticeable effect at all
01:53:44 <elliott> did you have to say "epic win" :(
01:53:50 <ais523> pikhq_: there's a hilarious blog post by one of the Mozilla people talking about improving Firefox's startup time
01:54:06 <ais523> they spent ages benchmarking it to stop it seeking about all over the place in the executable, and instead read sequentially
01:54:09 <ais523> and had got it down quite a bit
01:54:22 <ais523> and then, they just wrote a shell script that copied the executable to /dev/null before running it, and it went way faster
01:54:27 <pikhq_> ais523: Well, in my defense, I'm doing nonsequential accesses on a *framebuffer*.
01:54:37 <pikhq_> And said framebuffer doesn't fit in my L2.
01:54:39 <ais523> pikhq_: reads or writes?
01:54:47 <ais523> pikhq_: your defence? it's the compiler I'm bitchingat
01:56:19 <ais523> how do you speed up writes with a prefetch?
01:56:42 <pikhq_> But it halved the time I take to draw a frame!
01:56:50 <ais523> meanwhile, XPN's text wrap is really /really/ broken
01:57:27 <ais523> if you type () then start typing inside the parens, the cursor ends up outside them when it wraps from one line to the next, for instance
01:57:34 <pikhq_> Though __builtin_prefetch takes an option so you can tell it you're meaning to *write*.
01:58:15 <kmc> if you're doing only writes, you can use nontemporal store instructions
01:58:30 <ais523> well, it's a framebuffer, it's being read by something else
01:58:37 <ais523> or might even physically be part of the video hardware, I guess
01:58:51 <ais523> not sure how many layers of indirection there are between a typical framebuffer and the video card
01:59:06 <ais523> anyway, Web of Lies-related issue: X is trying to make iopl syscalls, as non-root
01:59:09 <ais523> and is then bitching when they fail
01:59:20 <pikhq_> 'Cept it doesn't fit in cache.
01:59:22 <ais523> also, passing them through to the kernel is giving EINVAL rather than EPERM anyway
01:59:27 <pikhq_> It's ~4 times larger than my L2.
02:22:50 <RocketJSquirrel> http://www.focalprice.com/CE0031W/HYUNDAI_A7_7_Capacitive_Android_40_Tablet_with_3G_WiFi_White.html <-- This. How is this. HOW.
02:23:03 <elliott> i think RocketJSquirrel likes his tablet
02:23:24 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: Part of it is that I bought it only because I was expecting it to be SO bad, I had to know HOW bad.
02:23:54 <elliott> i have a shitty android tablet that isn't really shitty too
02:24:00 <RocketJSquirrel> I'm watching videos to test its battery life. I'm on episode 7, 62% battery (by probably-inaccurate reporting of course, but still, I'm on episode 7)
02:24:01 <elliott> shitty android tablet that isn't really shitty friends
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02:26:53 <kmc> how good is the screen?
02:27:58 <RocketJSquirrel> kmc: It's plastic, not glass, but it's capacitive (reportedly five-point). At first I thought the sensitivity was a bit weird, but I don't seem to be having any issues, so either I got used to it or it was a nonissue.
02:48:59 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sun Apr 15 03:49:29
03:03:33 <shachaf> we were jstju tlkninga oubto aooabuyouuuu
03:06:42 <shachaf> about hwowoow you dnontndotn syay hi nono morere:(
03:07:29 <shachaf> monqy: wew decideded to replapcle yoou
03:07:47 <monqy> who's abetebter monqy
03:07:51 <zzo38> I added more stuff to file of idea of D&D scenarios
03:09:08 <kmc> @protontorpedo
03:09:08 <lambdabot> how do we automate ftp file transfers with haskell?
03:09:10 <kmc> @protontorpedo
03:21:06 <kmc> is it a different cult from the SingInst cult?
03:21:39 <elliott> is it a different cult from mormonism
03:22:32 <shachaf> kmc: I think it's the same one.
03:25:19 <shachaf> monqy: 1 Corinthians 10:13
03:25:48 <shachaf> it's the one that says "YOU CAN DO IT MONQY"
03:26:00 <shachaf> @google 1 corinthians 10:13
03:26:03 <lambdabot> http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+10%3A13&version=NIV
03:26:03 <lambdabot> Title: 1 Corinthians 10:13 NIV - No temptation has overtaken you except - Bible Gateway
03:35:35 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
03:35:42 <shachaf> ｋｍｃ： Ｄｏｅｓ ｔｈｉｓ ｈｉｇｈｌｉｇｈｔ ｙｏｕｒ ｎｉｃｋ？
03:37:16 <hagb4rd> shachaf: how do you do that?
03:37:33 <shachaf> hagb4rd: Ｉ ｈａｖｅ ｍａｇｉｃａｌ ａｒｔｉｓｔ ｐｏｗｅｒｓ．
03:38:57 <shachaf> kmc: I have an actual Japanese input method set up!
03:39:03 <shachaf> In order to not be racist.
03:40:09 <shachaf> monqy: im givning up hi :(
03:40:19 <monqy> I remember old shachaf
03:40:23 <monqy> old shachaf said hi
03:40:32 <shachaf> Well, old shachaf is no more.
03:40:39 <monqy> what did you do old shachaf
03:43:57 <hagb4rd> so you have kind of a macro set up, encoding your input as unicode right? is there an escape char to prefix a unicode char? if you know what i mean
03:44:33 <shachaf> hagb4rd: I have a secret macro that encodes EVERYTHING I TYPE -- EVEN THESE VERY CHARACTERS -- AS UNICODE.
03:44:38 <shachaf> Where by Unicode I mean UTF-8.
03:48:15 <kmc> is there an escape char to prefix a unicode char? IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN NUDGE NUDGE WINK WINK
03:49:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: chr: not found
03:51:12 <kmc> shachaf: it did not hilight
03:53:45 <hagb4rd> maybe thats because it is so secret
03:56:31 <kmc> shachaf: you are not the first person to wonder that
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03:58:22 <RocketJSquirrel> Welp, the person I was babbling my battery test reports at logged off, so I have to report them at #esoteric now.
04:00:10 <hagb4rd> shachaf: what's up with itidus21? you haven't hurt him, did you?
04:04:43 <hagb4rd> i will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers
04:06:16 <shachaf> hagb4rd: Are you sure you're not itidus21?
04:12:04 -!- elliott has joined.
04:12:31 <shachaf> 21:11 < hagb4rd> @karma- shachaf
04:12:31 <shachaf> 21:11 < lambdabot> shachaf's karma lowered to 12.
04:12:40 <shachaf> elliott: Look at what hagb4rd did.
04:15:10 <elliott> lambdabot once had 50 karma.
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04:21:56 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Do you know what the type of a closure is???
04:22:41 <kmc> elliott: why are you asking that
04:22:58 <elliott> kmc: It's one of those questions where I already know the answer, I'm just repeating it a lot, you see?
04:23:09 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: WRONGGGGGGGGGGGG
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04:24:39 <shachaf> elliott: The best part was the part where you were wrong all along.
04:25:00 <elliott> shachaf: Yes. But then I became right!
04:25:22 <shachaf> Apparently http://prokofiev.org/ may harm my computer. :-(
04:25:36 <shachaf> elliott: AFTER I MADE YOU RIGHT
04:26:03 <elliott> shachaf: Yes, but would you have made me right without the inspiration and genius I showed to you with my original, slightly incorrect form?
04:26:28 <shachaf> elliott: Also, I wasn't really exactly wrong, as such.
04:26:51 <shachaf> struct Closure { void *data; void (*fn)(void *); };
04:27:42 <kmc> data a -> b = K (∃f. (f, a) -># b)
04:28:27 <elliott> kmc: That needs MagicHash, man!
04:28:34 <elliott> By the way, that's wrong too.
04:28:41 <elliott> data a -> b = K (∃f. (f, (f, a) -># b))
04:28:52 <shachaf> elliott: kmc always needs MagicHash.
04:29:07 <elliott> Wait! I think I get the joke!
04:29:15 <kmc> itt: drugs
04:29:23 <kmc> yeah you're right elliott
04:29:45 <shachaf> elliott: Isn't it great how you corrected kmc with the exact same thing I used to correct you earlier?
04:30:26 <elliott> I don't like how kmc's definition couples the concept of function with the concept of closure. But OTOH I can't see any useful way to use my original type without the product in there. :(
04:30:30 <kmc> shachaf: aim hecker :(
04:30:49 <elliott> Have I mentioned that my systems language uses kmc's (->#) as its function arrow?
04:31:24 <shachaf> kmc: did i hckecek ur aim????
04:31:38 <kmc> shachaf: WHY ARE YOU STILL ANGRY ABOUT PHP
04:31:40 <kmc> lol nerds get a life
04:32:11 <elliott> kmc's aim is so hecked that he doesn't technically have an aim any more
04:32:18 <kmc> shachaf: yesterday I went sailing in the Charles River Basin
04:32:37 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sun Apr 15 05:33:07
04:33:22 <kmc> i didn't sink
04:33:45 <kmc> i went with KeithW so if we did sink, that would pretty much be the end of Mosh
04:33:51 <kmc> we need a critical personel policy
04:34:54 <elliott> kmc: I think that would require a bus to drive into the basin with you, and then hit you.
04:35:04 <elliott> That is, as I understand, the procedure.
04:35:06 <kmc> that could very easily happen
04:35:22 <shachaf> Buses? In my Charles River Basin?
04:35:34 <elliott> It's not your Charles River basin, shachaf.
04:35:51 <shachaf> elliott: Did I mention I quit hi?
04:36:10 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep.
04:36:28 <kmc> more like Cam River basin
04:36:42 <kmc> does anyone here know how to make good currywurst sauce
04:37:31 <elliott> Step 2. No, like, the worst curry.
04:37:50 <kmc> HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
04:37:50 <kmc> HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
04:37:52 <kmc> HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
04:37:52 <kmc> HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
04:39:28 <elliott> kmc: You should implement my language.
04:39:34 <zzo38> Do you know if Codensity can ever make Extend or Comonad?
04:39:57 <kmc> ubuntu freebsd
04:40:26 <elliott> Not *everything* I do is @.
04:40:43 <zzo38> kmc: You should help to implement my language as well, but not until the specification is written so that we can know how it should be
04:42:03 <elliott> I did not know the consequences of my actions.
04:44:08 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Can you implement my language?
04:45:45 <elliott> kmc: Also, did you ever tell me about DDC?
04:47:53 <hagb4rd> now he's finally going mental
04:48:01 <elliott> You should at least read this paper for me so I can close its window.
04:49:23 <elliott> "We use the type bool as a shorthand to denote the type
04:49:23 <elliott> 1 + 1 and use left () to be true and right () to be false."
04:49:27 <elliott> No! That's the wrong way around. :(
04:50:39 * elliott is a superior person to kmc
04:55:04 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sun Apr 15 05:55:34
04:55:43 <monqy> what paper is this is it a good paper
04:56:10 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:57:00 <elliott> http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~sabry/papers/rational.pdf
04:57:05 <elliott> its a-b and a/b for types "fune"
05:00:00 <monqy> aaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
05:00:09 -!- augur has joined.
05:00:59 <monqy> its hte a-b and a/b for types fune
05:08:00 <elliott> "I agree with your clarifications so far. Thank you, ehird." :')
05:10:10 <shachaf> monqy: Remember when elliott drew a self-portrait of me?
05:15:04 <hagb4rd> elliott: do you have the haskell code mentioned to be "organized for better presentation" on page 2?
05:28:53 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
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05:42:56 * hagb4rd engages the synaptic cooling system
05:44:15 <kmc> python unicode escapes are BMP-only?
05:44:29 <kmc> print u'\u1f63a'
05:45:51 <coppro> convention is \uxxxx \UXXXXXXXX
05:46:22 <kmc> oh cool that works
05:46:23 <kmc> thanks coppro
05:47:08 <kmc> i guess they need to be fixed length
05:47:35 <Sgeo> What is RocketJSquirrel watching?
05:48:06 <RocketJSquirrel> Sgeo: Not relevant, I'm testing the battery life of this tablet.
05:48:45 <coppro> SMILING CAT FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH?
05:51:56 <Sgeo> RocketJSquirrel, but they must be episodes of something
05:52:41 <Sgeo> Unless RocketJSquirrel is watching STATIC: THE MOVIE: THE SHOW
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05:56:47 <shachaf> kmc: It's CAPITAL u because it's Unicode BIG endian.
05:56:56 <shachaf> There's a logic behind the scenes.
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06:11:51 <monqy> why are you doing this to yourself
06:14:16 <coppro> RocketJSquirrel: what are you watching?
06:16:04 <hagb4rd> it's the ultimate endurance test for his new toy.. "it's perfectly crisp, bright, etc"
06:17:21 <RocketJSquirrel> coppro: Not relevant, I'm testing this tablet's battery life.
06:17:50 <elliott> i bet it drains the battery and never turns on again
06:18:45 <hagb4rd> yea, he used to ring the bell for about 8 hours
06:18:56 <shachaf> elliott: how predictable !
06:19:39 <RocketJSquirrel> This wasn't supposed to be an endurance test for me, I really didn't think the damned thing would last seven hours X_X
06:19:55 <Sgeo> How do I convince my gf that I'm not good at everything
06:20:24 <hagb4rd> that's easy: just mess it all up
06:20:41 <monqy> who thinks you're good at everything?
06:20:50 -!- MoALTz has joined.
06:28:57 <hagb4rd> sgeo: if all else fails, beat her, calling her a bitch or sth. that should lower her expectations rapidly
06:30:41 <monqy> are you playing crawl?
06:31:00 <shachaf> Is Crawl version 2:0.10.0-2
06:31:03 <monqy> none of them (laughs)
06:31:05 <Sgeo> Why not play on the server?
06:31:20 <shachaf> Sgeo: When I play on the server, it starts beeping my IRC client.
06:31:23 <monqy> if you play on the server I can watch you, and sgeo can watch you too
06:31:33 <monqy> shachaf: 0.11 is most recent if you have any decency
06:31:43 <shachaf> "oh, shachaf has died. oh, someone just killed shachaf's ghost. oh, shachaf was killed by a jellyfish"
06:31:56 <monqy> just change your name, or play on an account with a funny name
06:32:02 <elliott> did you know that crawl sucks
06:32:05 <shachaf> And then EVERY TIME SOMEONE SEARCHES FOR !topkills by a jellyfish...
06:32:22 <monqy> elliott: yes, but maybe shachaf doesn't
06:33:16 <Sgeo> At any rate, I can't play NetHack on NAO
06:33:21 <Sgeo> I have a good game going
06:33:30 <Sgeo> And don't want to screw it up
06:34:21 <monqy> you're playing crawl, so no. (laughs)
06:34:30 <monqy> do you have it in you
06:34:41 <shachaf> monqy: Can't I just install what's in APT>;f a;df;:_-(
06:35:01 <monqy> if you don't play on the servers everyone in ##crawl will mock you
06:35:15 <shachaf> monqy: But I haven't been playing on the server for years!
06:35:26 <shachaf> In fact I haven't played a single game of Crawl for the last $TIME.
06:35:34 <monqy> if you play crawl but don't play on the servers, I should say
06:35:52 <elliott> you know what would be more entertaining than watching shachaf play crawl
06:35:56 <elliott> watching me play nethack while sleep-deprived
06:36:05 <shachaf> elliott: NONSENSE. NETHACK IS BORING.
06:36:07 <monqy> I don't like nethack either though
06:36:09 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sun Apr 15 07:36:39
06:36:37 <elliott> nethack is bad in a way that i understand
06:36:41 <elliott> i know how to play nethack sort of
06:36:52 <shachaf> elliott: But have you ASCENDED NETHACK ATHEIST WISHLESS
06:36:57 <elliott> shachaf: you realise you can just termcast the crawl game
06:37:00 <elliott> even if it's not on the server
06:37:35 <shachaf> elliott: http://alt.org/nethack/userdata/s/shachaf/dumplog/1248250553.nh343.txt
06:37:39 <shachaf> monqy: http://alt.org/nethack/userdata/s/shachaf/dumplog/1248250553.nh343.txt
06:37:50 <monqy> shachaf: what's a nethack
06:37:55 <monqy> and how do I play it ??
06:37:59 <shachaf> You never genocided any monsters
06:38:01 <shachaf> You never polymorphed an object
06:38:02 <monqy> just kidding i don't want to play nethack
06:38:12 <coppro> shachaf: but you polyselfed?
06:38:20 <shachaf> coppro: IT WAS AN ACCIDENT
06:38:35 <shachaf> I have polyselfless ascensions too.
06:38:42 <shachaf> http://alt.org/nethack/userdata/s/shachaf/dumplog/1212252167.nh343.txt
06:38:59 <shachaf> http://alt.org/nethack/userdata/s/shachaf/dumplog/1289699027.nh343.txt
06:39:02 <shachaf> http://alt.org/nethack/userdata/s/shachaf/dumplog/1289294462.nh343.txt
06:39:06 <zzo38> shachaf: I have played Crawl before; both on the computer and on the Nintendo DS
06:39:06 <shachaf> http://alt.org/nethack/userdata/s/shachaf/dumplog/1212543239.nh343.txt
06:39:06 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
06:39:15 <lambdabot> dmwit said 5d 2h 31m 45s ago: how to use ?tell
06:39:15 <lambdabot> dmwit asked 5d 2h 31m 23s ago: if he knows how to use ?ask
06:39:15 <lambdabot> edwardk said 49m 47s ago: i pushed a new kan-extensions with the Applicative instance for Density
06:39:17 <monqy> are you naoing or termcasting or what
06:39:28 <elliott> monqy: ill termcast because uh nao is really slow in europe
06:39:34 <elliott> i don't think ic an install nethack
06:39:36 <shachaf> elliott: Instead of naoing you should later.
06:39:37 <elliott> because my packages are broken
06:39:53 <shachaf> elliott: Did you know I WROTE A NETHACK PATCH
06:40:05 <coppro> elliott: you should be playing NH4
06:40:14 <elliott> why isnt telnetting to nethack.alt.org working help
06:40:16 <zzo38> The documentation is not available yet
06:40:18 <elliott> coppro: i knew about that BEFORE IT CAME OUT YO
06:40:26 <Sgeo> elliott, ping me when you're on
06:40:27 <elliott> monqy: sure here's the release announcements:
06:40:31 <zzo38> elliott: Maybe it uses a different port numbers?
06:40:36 <monqy> elliott: oh yeah dgamelaunch has a problem
06:40:37 <shachaf> elliott: Let's play a coöperative game of NetHack.
06:40:37 <elliott> monqy: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/browse_thread/thread/261849837d0d8e42#
06:40:41 <elliott> monqy: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/browse_thread/thread/ade3da9173a7cc2a#
06:40:43 <elliott> monqy: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/browse_thread/thread/cb0da1bf9d2c0ba1#
06:40:51 <elliott> (nethack switched to a rapid-release model)
06:40:57 <elliott> shachaf: is that where i press keys but you all yell at me what to do
06:40:58 <monqy> elliott: you have to set your TERM environment variable to something it recognizes
06:41:08 <elliott> monqy: what's a good thing it recognises
06:41:09 <shachaf> elliott: No, it's shared-screen-nethack.
06:41:21 <monqy> I use TERM=rxvt-unicode to get it to work
06:41:41 <monqy> without that it's rxvt-unicode-256color qqhich does not work
06:42:06 <elliott> race role gender alignment
06:42:24 <coppro> elliott: how multiplayer nethack works is that you and the other player take turns if you're on the same level
06:42:25 <elliott> my terminal is oddly-sized
06:42:29 <coppro> and crash if you do anything that interacts
06:42:36 <elliott> coppro: ais523 told me about it ages ago
06:42:38 <shachaf> elliott: wizard elf male chaotic
06:42:45 <elliott> shachaf: ok thanks for ur vote
06:42:49 <shachaf> elliott: valkyrie human female neutral
06:42:51 * coppro recompiles his compiler
06:43:03 <Sgeo> elliott, too busy fighting with my computer
06:43:05 <ais523> coppro: doesn't crash, it would if it were allowed, but it isn't
06:43:12 <monqy> doppelganger yeoman
06:43:18 <coppro> ais523: that's how it was described to me :P
06:43:19 <lambdabot> I don't perform such side effects on command!
06:43:25 <ais523> elliott: lawful dwarf female valk
06:43:44 <ais523> oh, gnome healer, then
06:43:58 <shachaf> I want to watch elliott try to DfV.
06:44:26 <Sgeo> ais523, so is NiceHack an actually viable Nitro+Ace merger?
06:44:39 <Sgeo> Or is even the tarball just say april folls or something
06:44:41 <ais523> Sgeo: it's called NetHack 4, but yes
06:44:41 <elliott> i'll resize this terminal to be 80x24
06:44:48 <shachaf> elliott: Real programmers always choose *
06:44:53 <elliott> also how do i make NAO redraw
06:44:54 <ais523> elliott: how difficult do you want?
06:45:00 <ais523> control-R, but resizing during a game doesn't work
06:45:01 <shachaf> elliott: 100000000000000000000×100000000000000000000000000000000 right now
06:45:02 <elliott> ais523: as difficult as possible
06:45:07 <ais523> and resizing during the dgamelaunch screen screws up
06:45:10 <elliott> what do you mean during a game?
06:45:21 <shachaf> elliott: First pick a role.
06:45:23 <elliott> is there a command line program to print the current terminal size
06:45:30 <ais523> also, difficult as in lowest win chance, or as in dificult throughout the game
06:45:33 <ais523> and yes, but I can't remember what it is offhand
06:45:42 <elliott> ais523: the aim is comedy, i'm sleep deprived and terrible at nethack
06:45:53 <shachaf> elliott: urxvt shows terminal size when you resize
06:45:56 <ais523> gnome healer, then, because it gets worse and worse as it goes on
06:46:12 <shachaf> elliott: IT'S ECHO $ROWS, $COLS
06:46:53 <elliott> monqy: is gnome healer good
06:47:16 <shachaf> Seriously. * is maximal comedy.
06:47:26 <elliott> Sgeo: monqy: are you watching btw
06:47:34 <ais523> random all might produce a good combo by chance
06:47:34 <shachaf> elliott: In fact, press Q, then press Y instead of N.
06:47:42 <elliott> lawful male human samurai?
06:47:42 <coppro> today I probably won the 'weirdest question asked of proctor' award
06:47:43 <shachaf> ais523: That's part of the fun!
06:47:48 <hagb4rd> hey, how can i join/watch?
06:47:52 <Sgeo> elliott, is it still asking for role?
06:47:57 <Sgeo> hagb4rd, telnet to nethack.alt.org
06:47:57 <zzo38> coppro: What is that?
06:48:11 <coppro> I had a hangnail, so I asked if I could remove a set of nail clippers from my bag
06:48:12 <ais523> elliott: what NAO username?
06:48:18 <elliott> ais523: ehird, and currently laughing
06:48:29 * ais523 jettyplay dgamelaunch://nethack.alt.org/ehird
06:48:40 <shachaf> monqy: If I play on NAO will you watch me. :-(
06:48:52 <ais523> elliott: huh, why is color off?
06:48:53 <monqy> I'll watch you both
06:49:17 <ais523> well you have a terminal that uses bizarre nonstandard color codes then
06:49:24 <elliott> ais523: it's just rxvt-unicode
06:49:34 <shachaf> elliott: Turn off DECgraphics.
06:49:40 <shachaf> Real programmers use plain graphics.
06:49:54 <elliott> ais523: what's the terminal for xterm 256 colours
06:49:58 <shachaf> Now all y'all get to watch me.
06:50:06 <ais523> elliott: xterm, I think
06:50:17 <ais523> there's xterm-color, but that only seems to work on BSD
06:50:22 <shachaf> @choice-add nethack Wiz_Elf_Mal_Cha
06:50:22 <lambdabot> New candidate "Wiz_Elf_Mal_Cha", added to poll "nethack".
06:50:22 <zzo38> Finally, in D&D game, I have found the emerald monster (it seems to be some kind of large humanoid demon); it is my job to kill him but the other people in the party should not kill him although they can harm him if they want; it is solely has to my job to kill him however. He is in some large octagon room, in some evil religion I cannot recognize. What to do?
06:50:26 <elliott> I'll go with a gnome healer
06:50:31 <shachaf> @vote nethack Wiz_Elf-Mal_Cha
06:50:31 <lambdabot> "Wiz_Elf-Mal_Cha" is not currently a candidate in this poll
06:50:33 <shachaf> @vote nethack Wiz_Elf_Mal_Cha
06:50:54 <zzo38> O, lambdabot has votes?
06:50:57 <elliott> ais523: does colour work now?
06:51:06 <zzo38> I didn't know lambdabot has votes.
06:51:09 <ais523> it works in gnome-terminal, trying jettyplay
06:51:14 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you know it now?
06:51:25 <elliott> i liike how i've forgotten all the keys
06:51:26 <ais523> yep, works in jettyplay too
06:51:29 <zzo38> shachaf: Partially I know it now.
06:51:30 <elliott> how do you walk somewhere again
06:52:11 <shachaf> Did you fountaindrink. :-(
06:52:45 <monqy> shachaf are you playing too
06:52:49 <shachaf> Will all y'all watch me now?
06:52:54 <monqy> I'll watch everyone
06:53:04 <shachaf> I'll play if monqy watches.
06:53:04 <coppro> I vaguely recall a player dying to a demon named 'where's my wish'
06:53:40 <coppro> but only if mail is on
06:53:42 <RocketJSquirrel> Episode eighteen complete, reported battery level 7%. ... ... the last 10% is purgatory.
06:53:45 <zzo38> elliott: Probably because it happens at random that you find goblins and so on isn't that now NetHack works?
06:54:13 <elliott> i forget can you mail in-game
06:55:18 <Sgeo> I didn't write that!
06:55:20 <monqy> can you make notes in game
06:56:06 <Sgeo> What happened to the mail I sent?
06:56:42 <Sgeo> Two messages on the same scroll?
06:56:56 <zzo38> * I have one of his books, but it is torn. * I have his dagger too. * It is some evil religion I cannot recognize. * The only known exit is through another room, up the stairs, into some water. * Someone else in my party has an emerald sword too. * This room is octagonal with 30 ft each side. * This fortress is a long way away from anything.
06:57:08 <coppro> Sgeo: the mail demon doesn't block on one client
06:57:11 <elliott> what happened to my weapons!!!
06:57:15 <ais523> elliott: you can use the extended command thing to send messages back
06:57:37 <coppro> elliott: you just type a message after the #
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06:58:09 <shachaf> elliott: Wow, did you just heal the fox?
06:58:17 <zzo38> elliott: Maybe they evaporated; but, I think in NetHack you can get bonus points if you never use weapons so try that
06:58:30 <shachaf> zzo38: Want to watch me play NetHack?
06:58:54 <Sgeo> (not actually yet)
06:58:56 <elliott> i think the fox just died from biting me
06:58:58 <coppro> ais523: is there a server running the most recent NH4?
06:59:14 <shachaf> ELBERETH MAKES THE GAME BROING
06:59:16 <zzo38> shachaf: Not at this time. But if I do, how to connect (including terminal modes and so on)?
06:59:21 <coppro> a elbereth gilthoniel!
06:59:29 <shachaf> zzo38: telnet nethack.alt.org
07:00:14 <elliott> what shachaf fails to realise is that i am the pinnacle of nethack comedy
07:00:18 <shachaf> monqy: Will you watch my game?
07:00:35 <monqy> shachaf: do you have a game
07:00:46 <shachaf> monqy: If I have one will you wahfhchatchchh
07:01:05 <elliott> monqy: come on that's like watching a stupid person and an awesome person simultaneously!!!
07:01:12 <elliott> ais523: do you have any advice for me in this tough situation
07:01:18 <shachaf> monqy: By the way, I pressed 'y' on the "pick for me" screen.
07:01:37 <ais523> oh, did you die and start again?
07:01:46 <elliott> shachaf is competing against me :( and also i can't find the things on the level
07:01:54 <Sgeo> elliott, may I show someone else your game?
07:01:55 <ais523> oh, search the right end of the rightmost room
07:02:01 <elliott> Sgeo: no its absolutely forbidden (yes)
07:02:08 <ais523> not 100% that the door's there, but above 50%
07:02:16 <coppro> why do first-sacrifice gifts vary so wildly in quality?
07:02:38 <elliott> ais523: i dont think its here :'(
07:02:52 <ais523> search the north wall of that room then
07:03:06 <coppro> I mean, snickersnee is kind of lame
07:03:12 <coppro> might as well get excalibur
07:04:12 <coppro> mjollnir is situational
07:04:24 <coppro> and Cleaver's also pretty bad
07:04:59 <shachaf> ais523: Should I set up INTERHACK
07:05:01 <shachaf> elliott: Should I set up INTERHACK
07:05:03 <shachaf> monqy: Should I set up INTERHACK
07:05:05 <shachaf> zzo38: Should I set up INTERHACK
07:05:07 <shachaf> Sgeo: Should I set up INTERHACK
07:05:07 <Sgeo> What is INTERHACK?
07:05:08 <ais523> shachaf: no, it's out of date
07:05:19 <elliott> i drunk frmo a fountain four times and now im help
07:05:21 <shachaf> ais523: How can you be out dater than NetHack?
07:05:27 <ais523> elliott: why were you drinking from a fountain?
07:05:41 <elliott> sensing the presence of monsters
07:05:46 <zzo38> shachaf: First you have to answer a question what is INTERHACK before I answer your question too
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07:06:13 <ais523> zzo38: a telnet client designed specifically for playing NetHack
07:06:22 <ais523> that tries to maintain information about the game but sucks because it uses regexes for parsing
07:06:27 <ais523> elliott: it's about neutral
07:06:34 <kmc> that's how ESR parses things
07:06:36 <kmc> it can't be bad
07:06:40 <kmc> he wrote the book on how to be a hacker!!!
07:07:38 <elliott> nooooOOOOoooooooooOOOooooooooooo
07:07:44 <coppro> in fact, why do so many terrible artifacts exist?
07:07:48 <Sgeo> elliott, you're not Dudley, are you?
07:08:07 <monqy> elliott: did neko leave a corpse? don't let it go to waste
07:08:21 <ais523> don't eat domestic animal corpses
07:08:23 <Sgeo> monqy's advice sounds like bad advice
07:08:34 <elliott> i remember when id id that
07:08:35 <zzo38> ais523: What happens in this game if you do?
07:08:35 <ais523> ESR parses with regexes? seriously?
07:08:41 <ais523> he didn't in C-INTERCAL
07:08:49 <ais523> zzo38: nothing, the information's just displayed in a more convenient way
07:08:51 <shachaf> I just meleed floating eye
07:09:00 <monqy> shachaf.....................
07:09:03 <monqy> no................................
07:09:09 <zzo38> shachaf: Then don't do that next time
07:09:17 <shachaf> zzo38: But it was accident. :-(
07:09:22 <ais523> elliott: still meleeing with your scalpel? :)
07:09:33 <elliott> ais523: hey it worked much better than whatever i was using before
07:09:59 <coppro> oh god my computer is linking clang
07:10:08 <coppro> also ais523, you didn't answer my question earlier
07:10:12 <elliott> partly eaten lichen corpse
07:10:18 <coppro> is there an up-to-date NH4 server running somewhere?
07:10:28 <ais523> hopefully there will be soon
07:10:43 <hagb4rd> great, your client is perfectly working ais523 :)
07:11:03 <kmc> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=923660
07:12:18 <shachaf> Hey, PacifistRobin is playing!
07:12:27 <shachaf> monqy: Watch PacifistRobin
07:12:37 <ais523> you need to micromanage your pets as a healer and ge them to do the fighting early
07:12:43 <ais523> as you can't win many combats by yourself
07:12:48 <ais523> that's why I thought you'd find this Fun
07:12:51 <elliott> its ok i ran away by holding down the h key really fast
07:12:56 <monqy> shachaf: is pacifistrobin you? are you pacifistrobin?
07:12:57 <elliott> ais523: but i just lost my pet!!!
07:13:00 <elliott> i dont know WHERE they wente
07:13:37 <elliott> nobody has sent me mail in like
07:14:45 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sun Apr 15 08:15:16
07:15:00 <elliott> CAN I EATEN HOTTIBETEN CORPSEN
07:16:45 <kmc> http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/show-them-the-code
07:16:49 <Sgeo> elliott, you should know not to eat zombies
07:17:03 <elliott> i dont really know anything
07:17:07 <elliott> monqy: is this enjoyable by the way
07:17:10 <coppro> clang finished linking1
07:18:02 <monqy> elliott: I can't tell, I'm doing too many things at once to isolate the enjoyment im deriving from watching you play nethack
07:18:23 <Sgeo> elliott, grid bugs are deadly
07:18:31 <Sgeo> At least after you melee a floating eye
07:19:04 <kmc> oh and then after the meanies on HN made fun of his code, he wrote a pompous blog post about how his way is right http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1387
07:19:36 <kmc> "CORRECTION: The snotty kid (or snotty-kid soundalike) isn’t from Y Combinator. That’s actually a relief – I know Paul Graham, I like Paul Graham, and the crew around him usually has more sense."
07:19:44 <Sgeo> elliott, you said something liek it exists
07:21:05 <elliott> can i pray in the middle of a thing
07:21:48 <Sgeo> elliott, the new John Egbert?
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07:22:22 <Sgeo> I was going to send a mail with
07:22:24 <hagb4rd> aw, jettyplay seems to freeze after i select rawdata :(
07:22:35 <HackEgo> 561) <Vorpal> elliott_, oh they are people known in the ruby community? <elliott_> Vorpal: Uh... you mean Hannah Montana? <Vorpal> elliott_, yeah. And Zed Shaw. Either they are that or they come from popular culture.
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07:23:08 <elliott> ok im going to play as a wizard
07:23:10 <elliott> ais523: wizards are fun right
07:23:24 <coppro> i will add bronchodilators to my <3 list
07:23:27 <elliott> chaotic female orcish wizard
07:24:09 <elliott> a cream pie on my FIRST TURN???
07:24:14 <elliott> thinsg are lookin g good for ehird the evoker
07:24:53 <kmc> http://hannahmontana.sourceforge.net/
07:25:07 <shachaf> elliott: But iwantntt a cmreal pie :(
07:25:19 <shachaf> elliott: canivehave creamrpie :(
07:25:25 <elliott> i don't know how to cast spells properly
07:25:28 <elliott> i know you zap wands and shit but that's about it
07:25:34 <shachaf> elliott: It's like zapping.
07:25:37 <kmc> "Q : Will you be supporting other computer architectures like AMD64, SPARC, MIPS?
07:25:54 <Sgeo> It's either z or Z
07:25:57 <Sgeo> To zap a spell
07:26:04 <kmc> yeah why can't i run hannah montana linux on my sgi indy
07:26:41 <shachaf> Sgeo: HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU ASCENDED NETHACK, MR HELPFUL
07:27:05 <Sgeo> I have a good game going on NAO that I started a few years ago!
07:27:15 <elliott> don't want to zap my wand of secret door detection
07:27:16 <Sgeo> The sad thing is I'm not even joking.
07:27:18 <elliott> i want to zap my wand of hurt things
07:27:52 <Sgeo> For what it's worht I always bplay withzards
07:27:55 <elliott> hwo do i use my spell boks
07:28:02 <Sgeo> elliott, read them
07:28:12 <Sgeo> After you forgot what they say
07:32:00 <elliott> but im still cant force bolt
07:32:16 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure
07:32:40 <Sgeo> I said that before
07:32:52 <hagb4rd> so you select spell (green mark) and cast it with z, right?
07:34:26 <elliott> my cream pie was poisoned?
07:42:12 <monqy> how do you cure that,
07:42:22 <elliott> ais523: how do i cure deathly sick food pois
07:44:22 <shachaf> I don't think you want mail.
07:44:29 <shachaf> Don't you have a full healing potion?
07:45:23 <ais523> if you have no better options
07:45:24 <shachaf> elliott: can I snedndd you mailol now :(
07:45:36 <ais523> otherwise, eucalyptus leaf, or sufficiently strong healing potion
07:45:38 <elliott> ais523: too busy dying frmo my illness
07:45:38 <shachaf> ais523: Instead of praying, he just did nothing for N turns until dying.
07:45:50 <elliott> i thought my health would go down first!!!!
07:45:56 <ais523> no, it's an instadeath
07:46:36 <shachaf> elliott: hoow entertnainingnggg. :(
07:47:00 <elliott> ok this time im play as chaotic monk
07:48:33 <elliott> were suppsed to pray regualrlyl
07:51:53 <elliott> monqy: is hallu yiur favourite thing
07:52:53 <shachaf> 00:52 < asdfasdf> pl (\x= x+1)
07:53:44 <shachaf> 00:53 < asdfasdf> pl \x -> x+2
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07:54:32 <elliott> monqy should i kill the shk
07:55:06 <monqy> i dont know much about nethacke
07:57:43 <ais523> elliott: you will probably fail if you try
07:57:47 <elliott> the INVISIBLE shopkeeper???
07:57:50 <ais523> without some dedicated shk-killing kit
07:57:52 <elliott> i don't know if i can handle an invisible shopkeeper
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07:59:23 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sun Apr 15 08:59:54
07:59:56 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Sun Apr 15 00:59:55 2012
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08:36:38 <Sgeo> How was elliott killed by a wand?
08:37:34 <pikhq_> I don't usually expect 3 inches of snow in April.
08:38:17 <Sgeo> elliott, your death screen said killed by a wand
08:38:22 <Sgeo> This may have been a whloel ago
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09:05:36 <zzo38> I try to decide what the law of counterpoint :: x -> f (f x); will be; perhaps this: contramap counterpoint . counterpoint = id = contramap counterpoint . ccmap counterpoint (where ccmap = contramap . contramap)
09:07:21 <zzo38> But if that is the law, then, I don't know which (if any) of the instances I have will follow such laws, except Finalize which is trivial
09:14:07 <zzo38> One instance I did have I removed since I know is wrong; the instance for Const
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09:45:30 <elliott> ais523: please help me figure out what to make of this edit http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:DNA-Sharp&curid=2722&diff=31925&oldid=31923
09:46:09 <ais523> put an {{unsigned}} on it
09:46:24 <elliott> that's a response, not a making!
09:46:33 <ais523> well, I think he's trying to agree with you
09:46:41 <ais523> I'm interpreting it as "yeah :("
09:46:46 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sun Apr 15 10:47:17
09:46:50 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Sun Apr 15 02:46:47 2012
09:46:54 <shachaf> elliott: make meo got sle pp :(
09:47:01 <elliott> ais523: but i was like, totally helpful! :''(
09:47:08 -!- Taneb has joined.
09:47:19 <ais523> shachaf: are you tired?
09:47:32 <elliott> ais523: /kick shachaf slep
09:47:36 <ais523> shachaf: do you think that if you attempt to go to sleep, you will?
09:47:55 <ais523> aren't you /really curious/ to find out?
09:48:04 <elliott> exciting science possibility
09:48:20 <shachaf> elliott: hlep, , mem geto fffff hi
09:48:29 <elliott> ais523: /kick shachaf slep
09:48:46 <elliott> me isn't even in the channel!
09:48:47 <ais523> elliott: he seems tired enough that he'll fall asleep at the computer if he doesn't go to bed
09:48:48 <shachaf> If you kick me it won't make me go to sleep any faster.
09:49:04 <shachaf> ais523: IS THAT A CHANNELGE
09:49:08 -!- Ngevd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
09:49:11 <ais523> shachaf: don't take it as one
09:49:15 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Ngevd.
09:49:18 <elliott> ais523: no that's his poor imitation of monqy's style
09:49:24 <elliott> Ngevd: u realise u can /ns ghost ????
09:49:38 <Ngevd> I enjoy playing the waiting game
09:49:42 <elliott> ais523: anyway, if you kick him he might shut up about wanting to be kicked :P
09:50:02 <shachaf> Ngevd: lernnrl2 enlgishsihs
09:50:12 <shachaf> Itsitstsi plsplelttt "care"
09:50:15 <ais523> shachaf: why don't you tell Ngevd your IRC password so he can refuse to ghost you?
09:50:20 <shachaf> (Seriously, "careth" is wrong.)
09:50:27 <shachaf> Ngevd: My IRC password is hi monqy
09:50:36 <shachaf> I feel bad every time I type it. :-(
09:51:07 <elliott> shachaf's account name is Shachaf
09:51:43 <shachaf> Doesn't nickserv tell you when someone tries and fails to ns identify as you?
09:51:46 <elliott> just for five seconds or so
09:51:56 <ais523> elliott: I can, but I have the feeling it would be a bad idea
09:52:03 <ais523> shachaf: only tries and succeeds, IIRC
09:52:03 <elliott> ais523: come on, i'm responsible!
09:52:14 <elliott> i'm even a lambdabot admin!
09:52:20 <ais523> elliott: you're acting like kerio, stop it
09:52:29 <elliott> shachaf isn't a lambdabot admin.
09:52:32 <elliott> he is a fake lambdabot admin.
09:52:36 <elliott> you should kick him for abuse of fake powers.
09:53:23 <elliott> @msg #esoteric /op elliott
09:53:28 <ais523> you can't do that, that's a side effect!
09:53:37 <ais523> elliott: you can't op someone with a privmsg
09:53:40 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o lambdabot.
09:53:48 <elliott> @msg ChanServ op #esoteric elliott
09:53:57 <elliott> @raw MODE #esoteric +b elliott
09:53:58 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: faq map rc read run yow
09:54:06 <elliott> good thing that didn't work
09:54:14 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -o lambdabot.
09:54:15 <elliott> @msg ChanServ kick shachaf slep
09:54:20 <Ngevd> It would have been funny if it did
09:54:27 <ais523> elliott: you are missing the point of @/msg/
09:54:35 <ais523> kick, ban, op, etc aren't messages
09:54:45 <ais523> elliott: lambdabot isn't on the access list
09:54:52 <ais523> so can't send commands through chanserv
09:55:04 <elliott> you should put lambdabot on the access list
09:56:06 <shachaf> lambdabot: how predictable !
09:57:07 <ais523> enigma contains different floors !
09:57:21 <ais523> (note: I recently discovered that this is actually a misquote, the original quote had no punctuation)
09:57:25 <ais523> (but who cares, it's a great misquote)
09:58:26 <elliott> ais523: how about opping me for less than a second? that's not enough time to do any mischief
09:58:52 <shachaf> elliott: How about ZERO SECONDS
09:59:05 <elliott> shachaf: I thought you *wanted* to be kicked.
09:59:08 <elliott> Not that I would kick you.
09:59:12 <elliott> Just commenting. In general.
10:00:15 <elliott> ais523: Op me so I can kick anyone who kicks shachaf.
10:00:22 <elliott> See, that's public defense...
10:00:47 <elliott> "As a side note, I seem to remember their being a message that came up when I created my account in saying accounts got deleted if the user didn't log in within 30 days (or something along them lines)." er...
10:01:07 <elliott> ais523: do we have a message along those lines?
10:01:12 <ais523> elliott: in which context? Esolang?
10:01:27 * elliott greps http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AAllMessages&prefix=&filter=all&lang=en&limit=5000
10:01:30 <ais523> it's possible there's a secret one, though
10:01:44 <elliott> nope, nothing like that on allmessagse
10:03:28 <elliott> ais523: hey, would it violate our privacy policy to disclose the last time someone logged in?
10:03:46 <ais523> not sure, what /is/ our privacy policy?
10:03:57 <ais523> it might violate UK law, if we don't explicitly say we're going to do that, though
10:04:07 <elliott> ais523: we don't have one; in fact, i explicitly removed a redlink to one from the footer
10:04:21 <elliott> hmm, but the record was made when Graue owned the site
10:04:41 <elliott> oh well, "they haven't used that accoutn since 2009" seems harmless and vague enough to me
10:04:43 <ais523> oh, right, you can't (in the UK) disclose private info about someone without warning them before you collecte dit
10:04:45 <ais523> it might violate UK law, if we don't explicitly say we're going to do that, though
10:04:53 <elliott> <ais523> it might violate UK law, if we don't explicitly say we're going to do that, though
10:05:05 <ais523> not quite bug, but big usability problem
10:05:11 -!- cheater__ has joined.
10:05:17 <ais523> in that a trivial typo just before I press return leads to copying recent previous lines
10:05:22 <ais523> with no way to undo it
10:05:31 <ais523> have you not noticed me randomly repeat lines before?
10:05:38 <elliott> i just assume you're weird
10:05:57 <elliott> ais523: it's in the logs now, but "nope, they haven't used that account since 2009" is okay to disclose, right?
10:06:00 <ais523> sometimes I think of using correction stars
10:06:04 * elliott MUST NOT UPSET HYPOTHETICAL PERSON WHO DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THE WIKI ANY MORE
10:06:12 <elliott> ais523: oh, I meant morally-okay, not legally-okay
10:06:16 <elliott> I suppose you're a terrible person to ask for that
10:06:20 <ais523> you know how ridiculously paranoid I am about that sort of thing
10:06:42 <ais523> "has not edited since 2009" is morally OK to disclose IMO, though
10:07:05 <elliott> well, /that's/ a bit obviou
10:07:35 <elliott> how about "That account hasn't been used in years"?
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10:07:53 <itidus21> "has not edited since 2009?" your aliby is a LIE mr. hypothetical. the court must find you guilty
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10:12:22 <itidus21> most recent contrib by ais523 is 7th april 2012 about the whole NBF2C.c fiasco
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10:13:18 <itidus21> but something is logged on 9th april 2012 where he deleted NBF2C.c
10:13:54 <ais523> deletions are contributions too
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10:16:22 <elliott> ais523: you could be a deletionist with words like those
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10:40:34 <elliott> ais523: oh, btw, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Pict if you didn't see it
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11:19:07 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MY_Titanic Apparently there is actually a ship named after Titanic.
11:34:28 <olsner> if it sinks today, it's the perfect celebration of the 100th anniversary
11:47:28 <elliott> comex: I think you have a doppelganger: http://www.reddit.com/user/comox
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12:05:31 <elliott_> RocketJSquirrel: How much do you need to owe prgmr before they start sending you nastygrams?
12:05:31 <lambdabot> elliott_: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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12:07:19 <olsner> the pellet with the poison is in the vessel with the pestle, the chalice from the palace has the brew that is true
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12:15:25 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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12:51:40 <elliott_> does anyone have any idea how to transfer 617 megabytes from prgmr to my machine without going insane
12:53:38 <kmc> what is insane about that
12:54:19 <elliott_> and i want to cancel the vps while i owe prgmr $40 rather than $60
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12:57:59 <elliott_> Huh, the last time I was on this computer is when McCarthy died.
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13:00:21 <elliott_> Deewiant: Well, I'm not paying for pyralspite *and* solidity.
13:00:35 <elliott_> I can run a Minecraft server on solidity, but I think most people are on Gregor's server nowadays?
13:01:06 <Deewiant> If you have two servers, can't you move your 617 megabytes to the other one?
13:02:27 <elliott_> Deewiant: I don't have an immediate use for the 617 megabytes; it's the Minecraft world (plus months of incremental backups).
13:02:46 <elliott_> I mean, I could move it to solidity, but I'd probably want to move it straight off again to make room.
13:02:55 <elliott_> (Not that I don't have lots of room free.)
13:03:04 <elliott_> Also, the privkeys for both are on different computers, and I'm lazy.
13:03:57 <Deewiant> If you just want to get the stuff off pyralspite quickly, solidity seems like the best choice, even if you then slowly transfer it to your own computer immediately thereafter.
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13:05:03 <elliott_> I'd have to fiddle to transfer one of the privkeys safely. :(
13:05:38 <Deewiant> Why'd you get another server anyway?
13:06:08 <elliott_> Deewiant: The whole "taking over esolangs.org" thing. prgmr is slower than I wanted.
13:06:18 <elliott_> And the network connection isn't very good, especially from here in the UK.
13:07:05 <Deewiant> (Or from, whatever the proper term is.)
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13:10:01 <elliott_> minecraft/old/old-backup-system/old-backup/
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13:14:25 <olsner> elliott: is your internet connection so slow that 617MB will not be done before you have to pay more for your VPS?
13:15:15 <elliott_> minecraft.tar.xz 3% 28MB 365.5KB/s 35:14 ETA
13:15:58 <olsner> btw, I think you can do server-to-server scp nowadays, might only require having keys on the client that starts the transfer
13:19:03 <olsner> hmm, I wonder what this message means... "error: error running non-shared postrotate script for /var/log/acpid of '/var/log/acpid '"
13:19:41 <olsner> yeah, it should've just said "error: error"
13:24:31 <olsner> ah, it's trying to send SIGUSR1 to acpid, but acpid is not running
13:25:46 <olsner> oh, it's ... not even installed
13:37:16 <olsner> I had about a million packages in that "removed with residual config files" state
13:40:16 <nortti> what distro are you using?
13:42:05 <nortti> I tried it once and didn't really like it. Too heavy
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14:01:00 <elliott_> does someone want to adopt a server
14:01:04 <elliott_> i feel so bad about putting it down
14:01:08 <nortti> *there any amigaOS, morphOS or AROS users?
14:01:47 <elliott_> nortti: uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh not very speccy
14:01:54 <elliott_> it's just a $20/mo VPS from prgmr
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14:22:50 <ais523> nortti: I have used RiscOS
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14:22:56 <ais523> but a really long time ago, can't remember much about it now
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14:23:01 <itidus21> it bothers me that the progress bar of a youtube video is not related to horizontal letterboxing of a youtube video
14:23:05 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I haven't killed it yet.
14:23:13 <elliott> Like a real mad scientist.
14:23:15 <ais523> it's what my primary school used, back before Windows had really caught on
14:23:41 <itidus21> just had to get that off my chest
14:23:45 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: What's the URL for prgmr management...
14:24:19 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: No, I mean, the page with all the billing stuff.
14:24:40 <ais523> they should do that over ssh too :)
14:25:17 <elliott> That would require PayPal-over-ssh :P
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14:26:04 <itidus21> in general they should have an option to letterbox the youtube videoplayer interface when it is windowed mode, so that you don't have to spend screen realestate on the letterboxed bits
14:26:13 <elliott> Ah, https://billing-external.prgmr.com/
14:26:16 <elliott> Thanks in the past RocketJSquirrel
14:26:24 <ais523> but the outcome was awesome enough that I don't care
14:26:43 <ais523> itidus21: YouTube tell people not to upload with letterbox bars already on the encode
14:26:59 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: There seems to be no way to cancel an account through this interface >_>
14:29:43 <nortti> ais523: Do you know what version it ?was
14:30:30 <ais523> I was pretty young then
14:30:48 <ais523> it was back when RISC OS was actually a viable choice for the primary OS of an organisation
14:31:51 <nortti> yeah. I am thinking about using it as my main os for some time after it gets ported to Raspberry Pi
14:33:00 <ais523> from what I remember and what I've heard about it, it doesn't seem that unviable, but the filename conventions are bizarre by modern standards and nothing understands them, and I doubt application availability is too great atm…
14:33:10 <itidus21> ais523: this is basically what i have in mind http://oi42.tinypic.com/1949sh.jpg
14:33:44 <itidus21> notice how nice it looks having the toolbar lined up with the letterboxing.. either that or i'm a tad mad
14:33:54 <nortti> netsurf runs on it and so does gcc
14:34:07 <ais523> itidus21: then why is the letterboxing there at all?
14:34:55 <ais523> and actually, I prefer it to be the whole width
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14:35:19 <ais523> a video I'm watching at the moment is using less than a third of the width, if the seek bar were a similar proportion seeking would be three times as difficult
14:35:44 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: HOW DO I CANCEL X_X
14:35:52 <itidus21> you... ask a good quetsion.. why IS the letterboxing there at all >.>
14:36:02 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: You can check out any time you want, but you can never leave.
14:36:36 <itidus21> ais523: ok ... i'll let it go right now
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14:39:12 <nortti> ais523: do you know that RISC OS has no memory protection and it uses co-operative multitasking
14:39:13 <elliott> Come ooon, I don't wanna gotta email support about this.
14:39:19 <elliott> They'll be all "WHY DID YOU PAY TWO MONTHS LATE"
14:39:30 <itidus21> speaking of curious gui design decisions, firefox recently started displaying images in the center instead of the top-left.
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14:41:10 <ais523> nortti: no but I'm not surprised
14:41:56 <ais523> itidus21: like every recent image viewer?
14:42:48 <nortti> ais523: I don't really think that is a really bad thing but many people disagree and have laughed at me after I told them that about RISC OS
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14:43:18 <ais523> meh, win3.1 is coop multitasking with no memory protection too, IIRC
14:43:23 <ais523> and it's entirely usable
14:44:31 <nortti> ais523: and so is system 1-Mac OS 9
14:45:24 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: ah, OK
14:46:27 <ais523> the docs I was working from were written as though cooperative versions of Windows were still in use
14:52:50 <ais523> anyway, IMO, preëmptive multitasking is just a workaround for buggy programs
14:52:57 <ais523> and cooperative would be better if programs were written correctly
14:53:11 <ais523> (wow, we both diaresised the e independently? I didn't check to see if you'd done it until after I did)
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14:53:45 <nortti> ais523: I am thinking about writing my own hy
14:54:44 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: cancel my prgmr for me thanks
14:54:48 <nortti> -hy+hobby os the way it uses co-operative multitasking, but it can preempt task that is not respondig/giving up cpu time
14:56:39 <ais523> it'd be silly if processes had to go into a busyloop waiting to be preëmpted
14:56:59 <ais523> hmm, is the opposite of preëmptive coöperative?
14:59:32 <nortti> RockeJSquirrel: no. it will have clock inteerupt incrementing counter and if it reaches 16 for example it sensd plesase give up cpu time signal to the program and if it doesn't do it for another 16 clock interrupts it will be marked not respondig and then it will be preempted, but program can give up cpu at any time if it wants
15:00:21 <ais523> nortti: SIGXCPU works pretty much exactly like that in Linux (although it gets killed, not pre-empted)
15:00:22 <RocketJSquirrel> nortti: OK, so what you've added to a preëmptive system is a nag signal.
15:00:33 <ais523> bleh, I broke the chain
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15:27:14 <HackEgo> Capster: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
15:35:53 <nortti> http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=25818
15:44:40 <RocketJSquirrel> Ohyeah, so the final report is almost exactly seven hours of battery life during video playback.
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15:58:26 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10162297/i-need-to-create-a-tic-tac-toe-game-on-c-with-gui-can-someone-tell-me-what-i
15:58:30 <elliott> I'm about to delete this question.
15:58:37 <elliott> Everyone enjoy it while it's still there.
16:00:01 <ais523> delete, not just close?
16:01:59 <RocketJSquirrel> Other than the broken grammar in the title, I know of nothing wrong with it.
16:02:17 <elliott> http://ompldr.org/vZGR2Yw/stackoverflow.com-q-10162297.html
16:02:38 <elliott> (Yes, the entire question body is inexplicably in a blockquote tag.)
16:03:00 <elliott> (ompldr happily serves up raw HTML???)
16:03:03 <elliott> (That's as useful as it is insecure.)
16:03:23 <ais523> elliott: exactly equal?
16:03:35 <ais523> it's both useful and insecure, but it'd be a huge coincidence if it were both in equal ammounts
16:04:17 <RocketJSquirrel> It's not /enormously/ insecure, it's not like you could ompload PHP and it'll just run on the server.
16:05:14 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Weeell, let's put it this way
16:05:32 <elliott> http://ompldr.org/vZGR2Yw <-- do you expect clicking this link might lead you to a javascript nastygram?
16:05:50 <elliott> Wait, that /is/ a javascript nastygram.
16:06:04 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: More of a "same trust" issue than a same origin policy issue :P
16:06:19 <elliott> And yeah, yeah, but a billion popups are worse than one distended anus.
16:06:26 <ais523> you could steal sessions with it, presumably?
16:06:36 <elliott> ais523: I don't think ompldr has any sessions.
16:06:36 <ais523> not sure if an ompldr session is worth anything
16:06:37 <RocketJSquirrel> `addquote <elliott> a billion popups are worse than one distended anus.
16:06:42 <HackEgo> 835) <elliott> a billion popups are worse than one distended anus.
16:07:12 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I specifically crafted that to get quoted but you have to obey the RULES dammit
16:07:53 <nortti> is there a way to browse trought those quotes?
16:08:01 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.3288
16:08:16 <elliott> ais523: wait, do we do 4 or 5?
16:08:28 <HackEgo> 803) <Phantom_Hoover> BF derivatives are a cancer running throughout the fringes of the esolang community, and as the fringes vastly outweigh the core, we're screwed.
16:08:39 <ais523> how can you fail to remember that?
16:08:57 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
16:08:58 <HackEgo> 420) <Gregor> You just went from "no sexualized ads" to "we have ads for dildos, but they're different for ads for Orangina" X-D
16:08:59 <HackEgo> 129) <Mathnerd314> Gregor-P: I don't think lambda calculus is powerful enough
16:09:14 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: If you used Transactional HackEgo...
16:09:30 <HackEgo> 346) <crystal-cola> I just thought you might have meant the Ramanujan tau and I was WOAH he weilds heavy weapons
16:09:34 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: (then it would never clone the environment, and thus there would be no bugs)
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16:12:39 <?unknown?> [freenode-info] channel trolls and no channel staff around to help? please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
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16:13:02 <nortti> why do the ID's change all the time?
16:13:08 <elliott> nortti: because they're just based on file position
16:13:12 <elliott> so deleting a quote renumbers all the ones after it
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16:13:19 <elliott> ais523: a prefix of a hash could work, yes
16:13:37 <elliott> first five base-36 digits of an sha sum, say
16:14:02 <HackEgo> 711) <ais523> the parser would be even simpler if I didn't try to do type inference in it
16:14:02 <nortti> what would happen on hash collision?
16:14:14 <HackEgo> 121) <fungot> AnMaster: intercal-72 c-intercal clc-intercal j-intercal yes all versions all versions
16:14:14 <HackEgo> 696) <shachaf> VMS Mosaic? <shachaf> I hope that's not Mosaic ported to VMS. <shachaf> Hmm. It's Mosaic ported to VMS.
16:14:14 <HackEgo> 247) <elliott> mtve, now he's an expert idler. <nddrylliog> mtve: kitty kitty kitty
16:14:14 <HackEgo> 430) <Gregor> decrypt 'illustrates the "can do" approach of conservatism in a patriotic way'
16:14:14 <elliott> nortti: I think that would be pretty unlikely.
16:14:32 <ais523> 247 is worst in that set
16:14:53 <elliott> 711 is funny, 121 is fungot-amusing, 696 is funny, 247 is... yeah, not that good, although the image amuses me
16:14:54 <fungot> elliott: here, i'll prove it, too, will take what i can get a little of that back with them, dromiceiomimus
16:14:58 <ais523> 121 is pretty low-quality for fungot, though
16:14:58 <fungot> ais523: this, my friends, is the malaise of the glutton at life's buffet, building complicaters? domino frustraters? wobbley times u.s.a.? um, maybe if i told his jokes
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16:15:07 <elliott> and 430 is a direct Conservapedia quote, which is totally cheating, but I guess we'll have to live with it
16:15:58 <elliott> https://github.com/farbrausch/fr_public whoa
16:16:06 <elliott> ais523: meh, I'll roll again out of stubbornness
16:16:24 <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> boston cream pie? sounds related to a cleveland steamer
16:16:28 <ais523> or is it good enough to keep?
16:16:35 <HackEgo> 664) <Ngevd> "Facekicker" Hird is a member of the Hird family <Phantom_Hoover> Ngevd, world-renowned detective.
16:16:36 <HackEgo> 587) <Phantom_Hoover> You mean it'd be Tau Zero but without the spaceship?
16:16:37 <HackEgo> 500) [2008] <nooga> i'm testing Haiku <nooga> and it appears that it is a major shit <oerjan> 5+7+5, not 5+11, nooga
16:16:38 <HackEgo> 780) <Phantom_Hoover> "Category 4 ("professional") fireworks are for sale only to fireworks professionals. They have no restrictions," <Phantom_Hoover> OK I need to become a pyrotechnician. <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that's like wanting to become a locksmith <ais523> so that you can legally own lockpicks <Phantom_Hoover> Did I mention when I wanted to become a locksmith?
16:16:41 <elliott> ais523: I don't dislike any of them strongly enough to delete now
16:17:08 <ais523> bleh, is there any way to adblock a favicon?
16:17:29 <ais523> elliott: I use adblock and noscript as generalised annoyance-blockers
16:17:37 <ais523> but this favicon is pissing me off, and adblock can't aim at it
16:18:26 <ais523> OK, I can get rid of it in the URL bar by editing the URL
16:18:29 <ais523> but not the copy in the tab
16:18:51 <elliott> it's getting harder, which means either the quotes are getting better, or my standards are getting lower
16:19:04 <HackEgo> 814) <shachaf> Lent is a bad habit that people find very difficult to give up.
16:19:41 <HackEgo> 419) * perlmonkey is pursuing the line of reasoning that eating raw foods can improve cognitive function <Phantom_Hoover> perlmonkey, well, it certainly makes you think about what you'd rather be eating.
16:19:41 <HackEgo> 159) <ais523> you should be eating corpses more
16:19:41 <HackEgo> 92) <fax> oklopol geez what are you doing here <oklokok> ...i don't know :< <oklokok> i actually ate until now, although i guess i also did other things...
16:19:42 <HackEgo> 185) <zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream
16:19:55 <elliott> haha at the juxta of 419 and 159
16:20:09 <elliott> not haha at 159 itself, alas
16:20:15 <elliott> although I suspect I'm to blame for that one
16:20:19 <ais523> it's a clear NetHack reference
16:20:20 <HackEgo> *poof* <ais523> you should be eating corpses more
16:20:28 <ais523> so it's only funny to people who don't know the context
16:20:32 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, how the hell did you not eat corpses all the time?
16:20:54 <elliott> ais523: are you /sure/ it's 5?
16:20:58 <Phantom_Hoover> I compulsively eat everything I kill, unless it's a lichen, in which case I pick it up.
16:20:59 <HackEgo> 216) <elliott> oerjan: What, can girls aim their penises better?
16:21:11 <HackEgo> 491) <monqy> itidus20: i saw a dancing cgi skeleton named malaria. i danced and played with him.
16:21:25 <HackEgo> 259) <quintopia> who is guido van rossum <olsner> you could say he's a man who grew a beard but acquired none of the associated good properties
16:21:25 <HackEgo> 256) <zzo38> ais523: Maybe it is better, because I don't think the octopus will live very well in the tree. But the difference is that the Internet is lying and you cannot see such things; you could make modified picture, though, in order to lie more clearly, at least.
16:21:28 <elliott> that was the old old monqy
16:21:32 <HackEgo> 37) <oklopol> i'm my dad's unborn sister
16:21:33 <elliott> before he got corrupted into old monqy by bad influences
16:21:47 <ais523> I don't like 259 or 37
16:21:52 <ais523> the other three are good
16:22:11 <elliott> 259 is good, 37 is bad but traditional
16:22:33 <ais523> "traditional" is a reason to keep quotes?
16:22:40 <elliott> bah, if this doesn't turn up a really crap one I'm going to go on an indiscriminate quote massacre:
16:23:01 <HackEgo> 803) <olsner> the allocation is done by the "Dynamic" in DRAM <olsner> before that we used SRAM where everything was preallocated in the factory <fizzie> olsner: So what's this SDRAM then? <olsner> fizzie: synchronized, it's for multithreading
16:23:29 <HackEgo> 672) <Pavitra> That was me being *nice*. I could have made the request by word of mouth to my My Little Pony toys and it would count.
16:23:30 <HackEgo> 787) <itidus21> the possession of diamonds by the bourgeois is more about establishing their bourgeoisness more than wanting a malleable metal <itidus21> oops i forgot i said diamonds instead of gold
16:23:30 <HackEgo> 666) <fizzie> It's missing the "bear scat showing a diet of prime numbers" picture.
16:23:31 <HackEgo> 191) <cpressey> fizzie: I can never tell with OpenBSD! <cpressey> everything looks like an error anyway
16:24:25 <HackEgo> *poof* <fizzie> It's missing the "bear scat showing a diet of prime numbers" picture.
16:24:46 <elliott> what a wonderful way to wile away an afternoon this is
16:25:03 <HackEgo> 785) <fungot> elliott: to be honest, it doesn't exist in a state of almost perpetual stalemate, and expands to a larger board and more exotic collection of what he refers to as a thermal hull, instead of some kind of clock pun. no, dammit, will this breakfast injure his shrill, bearded, scraggly old men in space. jade's radioactive, omnipotent, space-warping dog named...
16:25:20 <HackEgo> 523) <itidus20> what i mean by afk is <itidus20> i can see how dumb it is.. ill make a coffe instead
16:25:29 <HackEgo> 816) <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: gsi-ffs.scm just has a tendency to give procedures meaningful, spelled out, names, unlike " fnord)"
16:25:35 <HackEgo> 23) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <oerjan> In an alternate universe, I would say "In an alternate universe, ehird has taste"
16:25:36 <HackEgo> 284) <elliott> 320 quotes and still not a funny one yet!
16:25:52 <elliott> multiple ones need to go there
16:26:06 <elliott> actually, I feel like keeping 284 because of the incrongognointosity
16:26:17 <HackEgo> *poof* <itidus20> what i mean by afk is <itidus20> i can see how dumb it is.. ill make a coffe instead
16:26:30 <elliott> ok someone else spin the slot machine this time
16:26:53 <HackEgo> 24) <ehird> so i can only conclude that it is flawed, or the world is utterly bonkers
16:26:58 <HackEgo> 78) <Eeyore> I used to have salt licks for my horses. They would make cool abstract sculptures with them.
16:27:08 <HackEgo> 449) <Sgeo> Dear eHow: Please don't assume that my toilet works like that <Sgeo> Or, at least, my toilet looks different
16:27:09 <HackEgo> 243) <nddrylliog> are you always careful to have a small enough margin so that it can't contain the proof? <oklofok> nddrylliog: i usually use latex, and make sure my hd is almost full
16:27:11 <HackEgo> Failed < 1334507241 963061 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that last one isn't funny at all
16:27:27 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: delete: not found
16:27:34 <HackEgo> 373) <elliott> sgeo do you actually know what sex looks like i am just checking here <Sgeo> I think so
16:27:48 <HackEgo> *poof* <Eeyore> I used to have salt licks for my horses. They would make cool abstract sculptures with them.
16:30:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You should spin it!
16:35:10 <fizzie> ais523: http://alpha61.com/primenumbershittingbear/ is kinda what it referred to.
16:35:43 <fizzie> It's Exactly What It Says on the Tin.
16:36:04 <fizzie> I don't quite recall what the "it" was in the context, though.
16:58:48 -!- zzo38 has joined.
16:58:59 -!- Nisstyre has changed nick to TheSussman.
16:59:17 -!- TheSussman has changed nick to Nisstyre.
17:01:54 <zzo38> ais523: What browser are you using? Some have an option to turn off favicons entirely so that they will not be displayed at all
17:09:45 <elliott> You know who we should disown?
17:09:47 <elliott> People who use bold-italics.
17:09:54 <elliott> Except when bolding the title of a work.
17:10:50 <ais523> what about doing them as parody?
17:11:05 <ais523> there's nothing wrong with doing something like this occasionally
17:11:13 <ais523> except that most clients don't interpret tab as toggle-italic, like Konversation does
17:13:26 <zzo38> My client interprets CTRL+B as bold, but doesn't interpret CTRL+I and just displays it "I" black on purple as it does with any unrecognized control character
17:14:00 <nortti> irssi shows I in reverse color
17:14:33 <olsner> seems like I is displayed as I here
17:18:14 <elliott> ais523: I think parody should be banned, too.
17:18:34 <ais523> well it doesn't display bold italics for anyone using a different client to me
17:18:39 <ais523> so how can you tell it actually is bold italics?
17:18:44 <ais523> I could be spoofing my version string
17:25:29 <lambdabot> Local time for fizzie is Sun Apr 15 20:25:28 2012
17:25:38 <lambdabot> Local time for nortti is Sun Apr 15 23:17:09 2012
17:26:03 <nortti> oh shit. I think I fucked up my time settings
17:27:59 -!- cheater has joined.
17:36:47 <zzo38> Here it is CTRL+V which shows reverse video (although it isn't really reverse video; it is black on yellow, while normal long-parameter-text is bright blue)
17:38:24 <lambdabot> Local time for nortti is Sun Apr 15 23:36:51 2012
17:39:13 <lambdabot> Local time for nortti is Sun Apr 15 20:37:40 2012
17:39:26 -!- Taneb has joined.
17:42:49 -!- nortti has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
17:44:07 <Taneb> I can IRC and everything
17:46:04 <Taneb> This is The Future
17:46:25 <Taneb> ais523, what news on Feather?
17:46:38 <ais523> isn't that encouraging?
17:47:43 <Taneb> It's just like I thought it would be!
17:48:27 <Taneb> I can talk to my phone and it puts it in the chat
17:48:37 <Taneb> ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
17:49:06 <ais523> Taneb: try a tonguetwister
17:49:45 <Taneb> she sells seashells on the seashore
17:49:48 <ais523> or just try to do my nick through the voice thing, it probably isn't in its dictionary
17:50:31 <elliott> can i call you x from now on?
17:50:43 <elliott> `addquote <Taneb> coleridge and
17:50:43 <Taneb> can you guess is that was meant to be
17:50:46 <HackEgo> 832) <Taneb> coleridge and
17:51:41 <Taneb> that's not a fun depot
17:51:42 <zzo38> dbelange: Stop! Drive sideways.
17:52:23 <Taneb> voice changer to remove ads from transit as well as intended
17:52:38 <HackEgo> *poof* <Taneb> coleridge and
17:52:42 <elliott> `addquote <Taneb> coleridge and [...] <Taneb> voice changer to remove ads from transit as well as intended
17:52:46 <HackEgo> 832) <Taneb> coleridge and [...] .18.<.Taneb.>.. voice changer to remove ads from transit as well as intended
17:52:51 <HackEgo> *poof* <Taneb> coleridge and [...] .18.<.Taneb.>.. voice changer to remove ads from transit as well as intended
17:52:55 <elliott> `addquote <Taneb> coleridge and [...] <Taneb> voice changer to remove ads from transit as well as intended
17:52:58 <HackEgo> 832) <Taneb> coleridge and [...] <Taneb> voice changer to remove ads from transit as well as intended
17:53:08 <elliott> hmm, that ruins coleridge and :(
17:53:27 <zzo38> Why does it have the CTRL+C and CTRL+H in your message there?
17:54:21 <Taneb> the killers dancer in my c***
17:54:49 <Taneb> I would suggest with even though I was meant to say try
17:55:09 <Taneb> I think I'll stick to keyboard input now on
17:58:22 <HackEgo> *poof* <Taneb> coleridge and [...] <Taneb> voice changer to remove ads from transit as well as intended
17:58:26 <elliott> `addquote <Taneb> coleridge and
17:58:29 <HackEgo> 832) <Taneb> coleridge and
17:58:32 <elliott> `addquote <Taneb> voice changer to remove ads from transit as well as intended
17:58:35 <HackEgo> 833) <Taneb> voice changer to remove ads from transit as well as intended
17:58:37 <elliott> `addquote <Taneb> the killers dancer in my c***
17:58:41 <HackEgo> 834) <Taneb> the killers dancer in my c***
17:59:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i think the caps were appropriate
17:59:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I didn't see the context when I first looked, so I thought he was talking about the Killers song "Dancer in my Cunt".
17:59:43 <elliott> i had to google to check that wasn't actually real
18:00:39 <olsner> doesn't seem like it was
18:02:44 <Taneb> @pl \n c -> n * 10 + toInteger (digitToInt c)
18:02:44 <lambdabot> (. (toInteger . digitToInt)) . (+) . (10 *)
18:02:51 <elliott> did you type that with speech
18:03:03 <Taneb> because of how on earth would I do that
18:03:41 -!- nortti has joined.
18:04:21 <Phantom_Hoover> I love how it worked at first and then went straight to hell.
18:04:39 <Taneb> I dont even no idea what I'm saying
18:05:00 <elliott> `addquote <Taneb> l is it real <Taneb> I am [...] <Taneb> because of how on earth would I do that [...] <Taneb> I dont even no idea what I'm saying
18:05:04 <HackEgo> 835) <Taneb> l is it real <Taneb> I am [...] <Taneb> because of how on earth would I do that [...] <Taneb> I dont even no idea what I'm saying
18:05:21 <nortti> apparently it is good idea to have swap turned on when running linux on machine with 64MB of menory
18:06:07 -!- Ngevd has joined.
18:06:07 <Taneb> hang on I have bright idea
18:06:41 <Taneb> navajo to f me 1 in 3 people
18:06:50 <elliott> `addquote <Taneb> hang on I have bright idea <Taneb> navajo to f me 1 in 3 people
18:06:53 <HackEgo> 836) <Taneb> hang on I have bright idea <Taneb> navajo to f me 1 in 3 people
18:07:06 <elliott> This speech recognition software does seem rather fond of the profane.
18:07:24 <Taneb> profanity specialities
18:07:31 <elliott> `addquote <Taneb> profanity specialities
18:07:33 <HackEgo> 837) <Taneb> profanity specialities
18:07:57 <olsner> there must be an easier way to just put everything taneb says in the quote database directly
18:08:50 <elliott> ais523: hey, how come sets and relations in type theory end up contravariant only, when they're both covariant and contravariant in set theory?
18:09:05 <elliott> I think it's because making them covariant destroys constructivity or something but I'm not sure
18:09:23 <Taneb> thank you verse I'm not quite innocent
18:09:27 <ais523> elliott: I don't know, don't make me think about it
18:10:21 <elliott> ais523: but it's a very special day for thinking about things like that!
18:10:25 <elliott> `addquote <Taneb> thank you verse I'm not quite innocent
18:10:28 <HackEgo> 838) <Taneb> thank you verse I'm not quite innocent
18:11:04 <Taneb> I don't even know set theory I haven't a clue what is going on
18:11:17 <Taneb> wow got that 1 right
18:11:32 <elliott> `addquote <Taneb> I don't even know set theory I haven't a clue what is going on <Taneb> wow got that 1 right
18:11:34 <HackEgo> 839) <Taneb> I don't even know set theory I haven't a clue what is going on <Taneb> wow got that 1 right
18:11:38 <elliott> I figure we can just remove the unfunny ones later
18:12:20 <Taneb> it's funny what is gay right c***
18:13:06 <elliott> `addquote <Taneb> it's funny what is gay right c***
18:13:09 <HackEgo> 840) <Taneb> it's funny what is gay right c***
18:13:19 <elliott> I have no idea what gay right c*** is, to be honest.
18:13:22 <elliott> I'm not sure I want to know, either.
18:13:47 <Taneb> may I use my phone says it's nick to clarify
18:14:07 <elliott> `addquote <Taneb> may I use my phone says it's nick to clarify
18:14:09 <HackEgo> 841) <Taneb> may I use my phone says it's nick to clarify
18:14:27 <zzo38> Fine call someone see if they will clarify it for you
18:14:29 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9504
18:14:47 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to ClarifyingNick.
18:14:47 <zzo38> It might not help much
18:15:12 <ClarifyingNick> the gay right c*** was meant to be "It's funny what it can get right and what it can't"
18:15:15 <elliott> `delquote 831 # VIOLATES GUIDELINES
18:15:33 <elliott> ClarifyingNick: Stop trying to cover up your clear desire to know what is gay right c***.
18:16:00 -!- ClarifyingNick has changed nick to Ngevd.
18:16:04 <elliott> 820) s'f'slg;sd'sdfjhklf;sdklfjdfklgj
18:16:51 <elliott> Let's delete something someone actually said instead.
18:17:04 -!- monqy has joined.
18:17:08 <HackEgo> 170) <benuphoenix> the pregnant ones are usually taken already.
18:17:12 <elliott> hi monqy we were just having a party
18:17:16 <zzo38> Yes; it is a part of the history but, it is keep history even if you delete it I think? Isn't it?
18:17:18 <elliott> and are continuing to have said party
18:17:27 <HackEgo> 16) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it.
18:17:28 <HackEgo> 412) <elliott> It's a Toy Story character, you uncultured fuck.
18:17:38 <HackEgo> 720) <CakeProphet> I like category theory because when you get over how damn weird it is it's still weird.
18:17:39 <HackEgo> 565) <Phantom_Hoover> I keep asking random people for "friendship <thing>" and it's crippling
18:18:16 <elliott> ais523: which one's worse?
18:18:27 <zzo38> No, I like those ones
18:18:42 <zzo38> And also 16 and 412 and 565 as well
18:18:45 <zzo38> So keep all of them on
18:18:45 <monqy> funny, I thought 720 was worse
18:18:51 <olsner> elliott: what's a toy story character?
18:19:00 <elliott> olsner: a Debian release, I think
18:19:16 <HackEgo> *poof* <CakeProphet> I like category theory because when you get over how damn weird it is it's still weird.
18:19:26 <Ngevd> 66 and 69 are pretty lame
18:19:42 <zzo38> What is the command to insert quotations in a specified numeric position?
18:19:47 <HackEgo> 80) [Warrigal] `addquote <Dylan> hahaha, Lawlabee is running windows <Lawlabee> 'cuz it's pretty awesome. [Lawlabee] Warrigal: :(
18:19:57 <olsner> that means... debian has a release that is newer than 1995?
18:20:05 <HackEgo> 745) <Phantom_Hoover> Here in Scotland we have a rigorous and well-tested theory of brothels.
18:20:11 <HackEgo> 623) <oerjan> yes 5 is very infixr
18:20:13 <HackEgo> 377) <ZOMGMODULES> scripting language. whole program analysis. together at last
18:20:13 <HackEgo> 310) <ais523> elliott: hey, thinking's easier than using the Internet
18:20:22 <zzo38> elliott: Then let's invent one.
18:20:31 <elliott> ais523: How come Debian adopted a Toy Story naming scheme despite being founded a few years before Toy Story came out?
18:20:42 <elliott> I mean, who the heck decides "you know this film that JUST CAME OUT? Let's base our naming scheme on its characters -- forever"
18:20:48 <ais523> perhaps they didn't need a naming scheme until it came out
18:20:55 <ais523> then used the film in a hurry
18:21:14 <elliott> 80 and 623 are rubbish there
18:21:29 <HackEgo> *poof* <oerjan> yes 5 is very infixr
18:21:32 <ais523> I read 80 several times trying to understand it, and failed
18:21:41 <ais523> whereas 623 looks like some haskell thing I don't know
18:21:44 <elliott> ais523: it's <Warrigal> "..." <Lawlabee> Warrigal: X
18:21:51 <elliott> where "..." = `addquote <Dylan> hahaha, Lawlabee is running windows <Lawlabee> 'cuz it's pretty awesome.
18:22:03 -!- Taneb has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:22:04 <zzo38> I think Debian could not make up release names so they could not make up releases, yet, until they make up Toy Story 3 and then they are able to continue releasing Debian too, they are lucky that works
18:22:09 <ais523> yep, I parsed that much, but still didn't understand it
18:22:12 <elliott> zzo38: I hate to tell you this.
18:22:16 <elliott> zzo38: But they already made up Toy Story 3.
18:22:24 <zzo38> elliott: I know they did
18:22:28 <ais523> zzo38: pixar, that is, not debian
18:22:36 <zzo38> elliott: I didn't mean to say they didn't
18:22:52 <ais523> hmm, that's a clarification you don't get to use very often
18:23:12 <fizzie> A Debian-made Toy Story sequel is something they could make when they run out of names next time, though.
18:23:23 <fizzie> It'd be all about Linux-running toys or something.
18:23:49 <elliott> We made that joke, like, years ago.
18:24:00 <elliott> I think it might have even been you who made it.
18:24:09 <fizzie> I... don't recall, but that's no proof of anything.
18:24:28 <elliott> `pastlog toy story.*debian
18:25:06 <elliott> `pastlog debian.*toy story
18:25:31 <HackEgo> 2010-11-05.txt:19:03:25: * Phantom_Hoover realises the Debian releases are named after Toy Story characters.
18:25:49 <tswett> ais523: well, Dylan said "hahaha, Lawlabee is running windows", and then Lawlabee said "'cuz it's pretty awesome."
18:26:01 <tswett> Except that by "it", Lawlabee was referring to something entirely different.
18:26:09 <tswett> So when I added that quote, Lawlabee emotifrowned.
18:28:26 <elliott> `addquote <tswett> ais523: well, Dylan said "hahaha, Lawlabee is running windows", and then Lawlabee said "'cuz it's pretty awesome." <tswett> Except that by "it", Lawlabee was referring to something entirely different. <tswett> So when I added that quote, Lawlabee emotifrowned.
18:28:29 <HackEgo> 840) <tswett> ais523: well, Dylan said "hahaha, Lawlabee is running windows", and then Lawlabee said "'cuz it's pretty awesome." <tswett> Except that by "it", Lawlabee was referring to something entirely different. <tswett> So when I added that quote, Lawlabee emotifrowned.
18:30:02 <elliott> `addquote <olsner> is tswett Warrigal?
18:30:04 <HackEgo> 841) <olsner> is tswett Warrigal?
18:30:07 <elliott> ok, time to delete some to make room for that crap
18:30:26 <HackEgo> 334) <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, Hitler! You and your wacky antics!
18:30:50 <HackEgo> 351) <crystal-cola> here's a good multiplication algorithm <crystal-cola> 1010101 x 110 <crystal-cola> well <crystal-cola> I don't know how to do it but it starts like that
18:30:52 <HackEgo> 570) <Phantom_Hoover> FFS, building a perpetual motion machine should not be this hard.
18:30:53 <HackEgo> 261) <Vorpal> !bfjoust test (-)*10000 <EgoBot> Score for Vorpal_test: 12.9 <Vorpal> yay
18:30:55 <HackEgo> 607) <itidus20> what is nice about a pebble is that you can process it with your brain as a number by simply looking at it
18:31:16 <ais523> !bfjoust test (-)*10000
18:31:30 <ais523> it's even missing a 0 :)
18:31:30 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_test: 14.5
18:32:00 <elliott> it just keeps getting better
18:32:07 <olsner> !bfjoust test (+)*10000
18:32:12 <EgoBot> Score for olsner_test: 14.5
18:32:33 <ais523> !bfjoust test (-)*100000
18:32:35 <ais523> fizzie: parity compensation
18:32:39 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_test: 15.2
18:32:46 <ais523> you'd expect the two paritied versions of the same thing to get the same result
18:33:05 <elliott> because olsner_test got added
18:33:11 <monqy> did those make it to the hill?
18:33:17 <ais523> oh, really? I'd expect all those to not make it
18:33:19 <olsner> !bfjoust test (>+)*2000
18:33:22 <EgoBot> Score for olsner_test: 0.0
18:33:49 <olsner> hmm, did that break some rule and get killed or something?
18:33:57 <Ngevd> !bfjoust test >(+)*10000000
18:33:58 <monqy> went off the edge?
18:34:00 <ais523> olsner: that goes off the right end of the tape before the opponent can zero its own flag
18:34:03 <EgoBot> Score for Ngevd_test: 6.2
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18:34:06 <elliott> 698) <Vorpal> elliott: well how will you represent "The dog jumped over the lazy dog" then?
18:34:24 <ais523> 698 is indeed beautiful
18:34:28 <ais523> I'm interested in the context
18:34:32 <HackEgo> 698) <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, cars aren't perfectly spherical.
18:35:36 <HackEgo> 697) <Vorpal> elliott: well how will you represent "The dog jumped over the lazy dog" then?
18:36:01 <zzo38> The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.
18:38:03 <zzo38> Jackdaws love my big sphinx of quartz.
18:38:46 <ais523> nortti: it enters a BF Joust into our running King of the Hill competition
18:38:58 <ais523> there's no penalty for submitting one that fails, it just won't get onto the hill
18:39:09 <ais523> so you need an actually good program to do better than that
18:39:32 <ais523> as in, something rather than nothing
18:39:50 <ais523> stats for how well your program did are available on (HTTP) request
18:40:05 -!- Ngevd has quit (Excess Flood).
18:40:56 <fizzie> There's also my Page of Plots (tm), I should maybe run it again one day on the current hill.
18:42:06 <elliott> fizzie: did you ever gcolour those things
18:42:23 <fizzie> Which were the things?
18:45:59 -!- Ngevd has joined.
18:49:05 <olsner> fizzie: what's the Page of Plots?
18:49:21 <nortti> !bfjoust >[(>[-]<[-]+[>[-]<[-]+]
18:49:22 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
18:49:29 <nortti> !bfjoust asdff >[(>[-]<[-]+[>[-]<[-]+]
18:49:32 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_asdff: 0.0
18:50:43 <nortti> !bfjoust asdff >[>[-]<[-]+[>[-]<[-]+]
18:50:46 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_asdff: 0.0
18:50:50 <zzo38> !bfjoust 1 +[-+]++
18:50:52 <EgoBot> Score for zzo38_1: 9.4
18:50:59 <fizzie> olsner: http://zem.fi/egostats/ but it's out-of-date.
18:51:54 <elliott> nortti: your loop is unbalanced
18:52:53 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
18:53:09 <nortti> !bfjoust asdff >[>[-]]<[-]+[>[-]<[-]+]
18:53:12 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_asdff: 17.0
18:53:20 <itidus21> !bfjoust notforlong ++[+[>-+]>>]
18:53:22 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_notforlong: 11.3
18:53:57 <zzo38> Is bfjoust with input implemented? Possibly it could be implemented using the same programs but its own scoreboard
18:55:21 <nortti> why can't I find my program on the stats?
18:55:35 <elliott> because it sucked too much and dropped off the hill
18:55:55 <elliott> see also http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/breakdown.txt after running a program
18:56:04 <elliott> and http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/ for any kind of serious development
18:56:26 <nortti> !bfjoust asdff >[>[-]]<[-]+[>[-]<[-]+]
18:56:30 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_asdff: 17.0
18:56:59 <itidus21> !bfjoust notforlong ++[+[<+>-][>-+]>>]
18:57:01 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_notforlong: 0.0
18:57:10 <itidus21> i feel silly now with that name :D
18:57:45 <elliott> RED ALERT RED ALERT I'm about to delete http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10164689/linux-drivers-theory get it while it's hot.
18:57:51 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Phantom_Hoover: (That means YOU)
18:58:50 <monqy> rest peacefully, linux drivers theory
18:58:54 <monqy> "you will be missed"
18:59:05 <ais523> elliott: wow, that's a troll against Windows that's potentially valid?
18:59:14 <ais523> disguised as an FAQ question?
18:59:19 <ais523> (this is not redundant, btw!)
18:59:37 <itidus21> !bfjoust hiushui +[>+>>->++>>+++>>+>>>+++>>++>>>>+---++>>>>-->>>+++>>>>+]
18:59:41 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hiushui: 0.0
18:59:57 <elliott> ais523: I cannot claim to know "is".
19:00:02 <elliott> It is pure form itself; it has no content.
19:00:13 <elliott> I can merely meditate upon its existence. And also delete it
19:00:19 <ais523> elliott: I'm trying to work out what your ""is"" is
19:00:28 <ais523> well, referring to, at least
19:00:30 <elliott> ais523: Bill Clinton once struggled with the same metaphysical question.
19:00:44 <monqy> !bfjoust tibute_to_itidus21 <
19:00:47 <EgoBot> Score for monqy_tibute_to_itidus21: 0.0
19:01:01 <elliott> ais523: Well, he stopped being President.
19:01:02 <monqy> !bfjoust woops_I_meant_tribute +
19:01:05 <EgoBot> Score for monqy_woops_I_meant_tribute: 9.8
19:01:14 <ais523> !bfjoust the_old_standby (>)*8(>[+])*21
19:01:17 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_the_old_standby: 22.3
19:01:30 <ais523> if you can't beat that, you should probably think hard about how you design BF Joust programs
19:01:55 <elliott> ais523: ("It depends upon what the meaning of the word 'is' is." --Bill Clinton)
19:01:59 <ais523> (admittedly, even rule of nine took a few days to discover)
19:02:00 <itidus21> !bfjoust counter_tribute_to_tidus ++[[+++>++>][+++<++<]]+
19:02:03 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_counter_tribute_to_tidus: 9.9
19:02:07 <ais523> elliott: oh, but he just had a single layer of quoting
19:02:13 <ais523> I was asking about the meaning of ""is""
19:02:22 <ais523> (or ((is)) with Underload quoting)
19:03:01 <elliott> ais523: The "is" I was referring to was the "is" in your "wow, that's".
19:03:05 <ais523> if you can't tell the difference between ""is"" and """is"""…
19:03:06 <elliott> (i.e. the "is" in "that is".)
19:03:18 <elliott> Thus, I cannot claim to know what that "is" is.
19:03:25 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele [++++]
19:03:27 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 13.3
19:03:55 <ais523> !bfjoust perkele_notsuiciding +[++++]
19:03:59 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_perkele_notsuiciding: 15.5
19:04:22 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10120428/is-it-possible-to-draw-a-graph-using-javascript
19:04:42 <ais523> elliott: is there a cost for deletion?
19:05:16 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele [+++++]
19:05:16 <elliott> No. It takes at least three people to delete something. More if the question has more votes.
19:05:17 <ais523> like there is for downvotes
19:05:19 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 15.1
19:05:30 <ais523> I was wondering if you had to pay in deletons or something
19:05:37 <elliott> I'm just going through the "most delete votes" tab in the moderator tools.
19:05:46 <olsner> nice, "can anyone suggest me the proper script.This is a simple one"
19:05:58 <ais523> is there a don't-delete vote to counteract it?
19:06:01 <ais523> olsner: plz send me the codes
19:06:08 <elliott> ais523: no, but there's an undelete button afterwards
19:06:11 <ion> “This question was removed from Stack Overflow for reasons of moderation.”
19:06:17 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Soon I'll delete *your* *children*!
19:06:27 <ais523> ion: gah, trying to figure out if that's valid but very bad english, or if it's just wrong
19:06:47 <elliott> there's nothing wrong with that sentence!
19:07:02 <elliott> ion: http://ompldr.org/vZGR6NQ
19:07:13 <elliott> Annoying that that thing does not save the comments.
19:07:15 <ais523> elliott: isn't it equivalent to "this question was removed from Stack Overflow for moderate reasons"?
19:07:32 <elliott> ais523: err, only if you deliberately use the wrong meaning of "moderation"?
19:07:49 <ais523> elliott: the correct one doesn't fit into the sentence there
19:08:06 <olsner> there was too much of that question, now there is an appropriately moderate amount of it
19:08:12 <ion> elliott: heh
19:09:25 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+[++>[-]<]
19:09:29 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 0.2
19:10:14 <monqy> !bfjoust congratulations_itidus21 -
19:10:15 <zzo38> In the Dungeons&Dragons game, there is one room I was only able to enter because one of the guards in the arrow slot room knew about lockpicking and had the tools for it (he never exited the guard room).
19:10:17 <EgoBot> Score for monqy_congratulations_itidus21: 9.7
19:10:22 <monqy> congratulations itidus21!
19:11:10 <zzo38> And I managed to trick a pursuer by teleporting myself to the same location but one minute forward in time.
19:11:33 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+[++>[<->]<]
19:11:35 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 0.2
19:11:49 <itidus21> just kidding, of course i didnt
19:12:31 <elliott> does anyone want to tell itidus21 about the rule of 9
19:12:36 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for languahes!
19:12:45 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
19:13:26 <ais523> <ais523 in another channel> I'm misinterpreting your answer as being to my question in an attempt to derail the conversation
19:13:31 <ais523> yes, it's got that bad
19:14:11 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui >>>>>+[+>[<->]<]
19:14:15 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 0.9
19:14:39 <elliott> ais523: by the way, what's the type of a closure?
19:14:42 <elliott> or did i already ask you that
19:14:52 <ais523> elliott: function type, typically
19:14:59 <ais523> or thunk type, in languages that have that
19:15:35 <ais523> well, if the closure doesn't take arguments, then in a pure language you can't distinguish it from a value
19:15:43 <ais523> which is why function types are so common for closures
19:15:44 <elliott> the type of a closure is ∃s.(s, (s,a) → b)
19:20:16 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui +[-+>[<-+>]<]
19:20:19 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 10.8
19:20:24 <ais523> ok now I have moved into pedantically nitpicking people's spelling hepl
19:20:44 <ais523> I'm not good enough at trolling to derail a conversation that really badly needs derailing
19:21:18 <elliott> a discussion about feminism on IRC
19:21:21 <elliott> how could anything possibly go wrong
19:21:41 <ais523> note: it's entirely offtopic, and a very large proportion, possibly everyone, involved is male
19:22:04 <elliott> just /part, that's what I do when conversations are (a) hopeless and (b) hopelessly unstoppable
19:22:11 <ais523> and it's got so heated and idiotic that people are repeatedly ragequitting
19:22:21 <ais523> I'm hoping to salvage the channel before leave it permanently
19:22:38 <elliott> what channel is it, out of curiosity? I promise not to join :P
19:22:39 <ais523> *more people leave it permanently
19:23:05 <ais523> meh, you can join if you can think of a plausible way to change the subject
19:23:14 <ais523> preferably to something really boring so conversation dies
19:23:21 <elliott> nah, I suspect being witness to that conversation would just annoy me
19:24:56 <ais523> OK, someone's trying to derail the conversation by thinking of even /more/ controversial topics to deflect it onto
19:25:00 <ais523> I, umm, is that a bad idea?
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19:25:12 <elliott> ais523: did you know Intel stands for INTegrated ELectronics????
19:25:42 <itidus21> how much harm can a long term offtopic do?
19:25:46 <elliott> did you know that AMD stands for Actually, More Daleks?
19:25:58 <zzo38> elliott: I think you are wrong about AMD
19:26:01 <ais523> no, presumably because it's false
19:26:09 <elliott> it's okay to know things that are false too!
19:26:11 <ais523> zzo38: I think he's lying, rather than wrong
19:26:12 <elliott> you have to have some variety
19:26:14 <ais523> he might also be wrong, I guess
19:26:29 <zzo38> ais523: Even if you are lying, you will still be wrong
19:26:58 <ais523> OK, the going onto even more controversial topics, shockingly, is actually working, because everyone's adopting a parody of a position that basically nobody agrees with
19:27:07 <itidus21> is it actually more efficient to know whats true than whats false, or is that a perceptual bias?
19:27:20 <ais523> and in the parody one-upmanship, they've forgotten the subject
19:27:36 <ais523> itidus21: are there more true things or false things?
19:28:08 <elliott> ais523: equal, except on saturdays
19:28:10 <ais523> no, it's more or less the opposite of zen
19:28:13 <elliott> when false things take a slight lead
19:28:24 <ais523> in zen, there is no false, there is no true, there is only oneness
19:28:31 <elliott> `addquote <itidus21> ais523: thats very zen really <ais523> no, it's more or less the opposite of zen
19:28:35 <HackEgo> 842) <itidus21> ais523: thats very zen really <ais523> no, it's more or less the opposite of zen
19:29:48 <Ngevd> I'd say there are more false things than true things
19:30:10 <ais523> Ngevd: but it's Sunday
19:30:11 <zzo38> Ngevd: Some things can be neither true nor false
19:30:33 <Ngevd> For every true thing, there can be many false things
19:30:41 <Ngevd> However, as both are infinite?
19:30:44 <Ngevd> Are they both countable?
19:31:11 <elliott> ais523: he was just trying to increase the number of false things
19:31:24 -!- Sleeptalik has changed nick to Tiktalik.
19:31:24 <ais523> surely it exists even if it remains unsaid?
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19:33:25 <zzo38> What do you know about psychic phenomena? I have heard of various experiences, experiments, and so on. Many fail to find any psychic phenomena, but Kuda Bux could walk on very hot fire that nobody else can. Some people suggest it is a trick, some say it is psychic; but I think the real reason is something unusual about his feet which medical science does not yet know.
19:34:07 <itidus21> conciousness itself is probably a psychic phenomena
19:34:32 <zzo38> itidus21: Yes, that seems reasonable. But first let me finish by writing more messages, then we will know better.
19:36:13 <itidus21> i'm gonna retreat to the tv now
19:36:59 <zzo38> Someone found a telephone number in a newspaper, of someone claiming to be psychic and no payment required. This was another city. He called the number, and the psychic said, please hang up, write ten yes/no questions which you know the answer to, and call me back tomorrow. He called back, they answered all ten questions correctly without knowing what they are, in the correct order. However, this is an isolated incident so we don't know if it means anything. (
19:37:55 <ais523> zzo38: was the person who phoned the psychic?
19:38:18 <zzo38> ais523: I don't know.
19:38:30 <ais523> that would be a simple enough explanation
19:39:06 <Ngevd> Was the person phoned a weird stalker guy with cameras EVERYWHERE
19:39:46 <Ngevd> ais523, UK private sector
19:39:56 <elliott> i'm just asking the quesitons nobody has thought of
19:40:03 <zzo38> Ngevd: I think that is even less likely than the other explanations but possible
19:41:59 <zzo38> Another thing done was a proper scientific experiment. They made a quantum noise random bit generator, connected to a red and green light. They saw the lights seem equal red/green approx. 50% each with many trials. Later on, a psychic came in and was asked to observe the lights and make it red all the time. It didn't turn out red all the time, but it did come red a statisticly significant 52% of the time.
19:42:34 <Ngevd> That person needs to try harder
19:43:35 <zzo38> (The equipment wasn't faulty; it had been tested.) After that, another one was made up, but instead was recorded on a tape and printed out (the printout was only viewed casually by the scientists, to ensure that the ink is OK); a psychic then came in and was asked to do the same thing (not knowing it was recorded); the same thing happened, and the lights did match the printout.
19:45:19 <zzo38> To me, after reading about the first experiment, this is the expected result (due to both spacetime relativity and quantum mechanics). Someone I told this to said he would not expect that; but I would think, spacetime is together rather than separate and relative rather than absolute (something shown by many mainstream experiments in the past). Perhaps this is one of the possible keys to unifying relativity with quantum mechanics.
19:46:02 <zzo38> (Note: The report did not mention relativity; or at least, I did not read anything in the report about relativity; I may have not read the entire report. The relativity is my own conclusion.)
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19:51:20 <zzo38> elliott: I highly doubt the caller was dead. I think the caller is the one who wrote about this; so he may have been lying but not dead.
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20:02:22 <nortti> did you know that almost half of people are worse at logical thinking than average?
20:02:43 <zzo38> nortti: By "average", do you mean the mean or median?
20:05:22 <zzo38> I didn't know that.
20:05:36 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:05:53 <zzo38> But I suppose you are probably correct
20:06:36 <Ngevd> So... logical thinking is an approximately symmetrical distribution?
20:07:38 <oerjan> can you sense how almost half of people have a lousier than average intuition?
20:08:23 <ais523> oh no, you're using a different average deliberately for proof of symmetry
20:09:08 <oerjan> ais523: if your intuition is good enough to distinguish mathematical averages, i'll be impressed
20:09:41 <ais523> oerjan: in very skewed distributions, mode from mean is pretty easy to distinguish intuitively
20:09:50 <ais523> and in distributions with large outliers, median from mean is
20:10:09 * oerjan wonders if anyone has measured the distribution of intuition
20:16:14 <oerjan> that was my second wondering. apart from the myers-briggs test (which is only binary for intuition), i don't know
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20:22:25 <oerjan> hm wait it's probably not really binary, it's just that the INTP etc. classes have only N vs. S
20:28:00 <pikhq> TIL: GTK can be switched over to Cyrllic transcription input.
20:28:21 <pikhq> Ас ёу цан имагине, тхис веирдед ме тхе фуцк оут.
20:30:06 <oerjan> hm wait ё is probably yo, not just y
20:32:59 <olsner> egojsout makes opera use infinite ram :(
20:33:13 <zzo38> I am advancing a D&D level which skill should I select?
20:34:30 <zzo38> There is neither skill
20:34:55 <oerjan> brain surgery might be plausible, in a frankenstein monster way
20:34:56 <zzo38> Profession? Diplomacy? Decipher Script? Spellcraft?
20:36:29 <zzo38> Actually I already selected Decipher Script and should select one more
20:36:32 <oerjan> Dire Butterfly Collection
20:37:42 <oerjan> whatever you do, don't remove those pins
20:38:04 <zzo38> That's good, because I don't have any pins
20:38:29 <oerjan> you need pins for dire butterfly collection, duh
20:38:33 <zzo38> O, I know which one, I will select Disable Device
20:38:42 <oerjan> preferably enchanted ones, i think
20:40:36 <oerjan> Recipher Script, for when you realize reading that scroll was a _really_ bad idea
20:41:58 <zzo38> Which Illithid Savant Extras feature should I select? (Read the current situation if you want; also, I have the text of the Extras features in another file)
20:43:09 <zzo38> oerjan: Read it for full information about the game
20:43:55 <zzo38> I will ask someone else for suggestions
20:44:39 <oerjan> that may be best, as i don't know much more about d&d than what i've learned through d&d comics and a little wikipedia
20:45:24 <zzo38> The file "level20.tex" (and its compiled "level20.dvi") describes the complete story and all character sheets; it is possible to learn a few things about a game from such a transcript
20:45:31 <oerjan> but there was an illithid in one of them, a fairly evil character
20:46:23 <oerjan> actually there was an illithid in oots too but that was just an enemy encountered
20:47:01 <oerjan> but yafgc has regular evil characters (but also good ones)
20:47:16 <zzo38> I have been assigned by a dwarf who freed me from being enslaved by other illithids, and also freed a doppelganger for the same assignment, to find and kill the emerald monster (some kind of demon); who has just been found now. The doppelganger is another player character who has quit
20:47:58 <zzo38> (The dwarf was also a slave)
20:48:27 <zzo38> This means I have been able to take absolutely nothing when escaping; so I am wizard with no spellbooko
20:49:16 <Phantom_Hoover> NOTE TO SELF: playing TF2 is hard if you don't heat your room.
20:49:58 <oerjan> who needs working fingers anyway
20:50:34 <zzo38> Doing jigsaw puzzles with your feet is cheating! (At least, this is what someone at school once said)
20:53:40 <oerjan> i don't think it counts if you don't have working fingers
20:55:47 <zzo38> Do you like some of these ideas for D&D game scenario?
20:55:52 <zzo38> * The church has run out of money.
20:56:03 <zzo38> * The king is allergic to magic and wishes all spellcasters (arcane, divine, and psionic) destroyed (including the royal spellcasters).
20:56:19 <zzo38> * The king wishes to eliminate all beholders from the city, even though only (exactly) half of them have done anything wrong. The problem with this is that there are an odd number of them!
20:56:23 <zzo38> * Airplanes appear and nobody understands them.
20:56:28 <zzo38> * The sun rises in the wrong place.
20:56:56 <zzo38> * A dwarf walks in to a bar (ouch). Heal him, please. (From WoTC forums)
20:57:07 <zzo38> * Help a beholder find his lost monocle/glasses. (From WoTC forums)
20:58:04 <zzo38> * The player character's equipment has been stolen and then another thief has stolen it from that thief too
21:02:23 * oerjan realizes tungsten and rhenium have high enough boiling temperatures that they might _not_ boil on the sun's surface
21:03:19 <oerjan> hm wait that ignores pressure
21:04:02 * oerjan is reading today's iwc annotation
21:16:45 <zzo38> I have selected "Learn Plans"
21:18:22 <zzo38> I found a castle with no windows, and the road that leads to it leads nowhere else; there is dense forest around it. There is no water source either.
21:20:47 <zzo38> oerjan: You have answered me before about the counterpoint :: x -> f (f x); stuff; do you know what kind of laws or other thing about it? Does this work? contramap counterpoint . counterpoint = id = contramap counterpoint . ccmap counterpoint (where ccmap = contramap . contramap)
21:22:15 <oerjan> i'm sorry, my brain is not sufficiently awake for that
21:22:32 <zzo38> What time do you wake up?
21:22:48 <oerjan> it's not about sleeping, it's about being tired
21:22:57 <oerjan> (and not from lack of sleep)
21:23:45 <zzo38> It resembles one of the monad laws with contramap counterpoint in place of join, counterpoint in place of return, and ccmap in place of fmap.
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22:47:12 <oklopol> it means exactly what it looks like.
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22:52:28 <oklopol> please comment on the amount of fingers in my hands
22:52:37 <oklopol> (all of these fingers are in my hands)
22:53:21 <ion> Nine fingers was an awesome Amiga demo. It even ran on the Amiga 500.
22:53:38 <oklopol> that sounds even more awesome than 10 fingers
22:54:24 <oklopol> please tell me about this amount of fingers
22:57:54 <oklopol> i think i may be drunk on orange juice.
22:58:24 <oklopol> i'm gonna sleep, keep up the good work
22:58:41 <oklopol> the power of continuum will rise again
23:01:41 <ion> Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity.
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23:07:44 <HackEgo> 796) <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, "fungott" would [...] remind people of elliott. <fungot> fizzie: now that could be nice for a simple language can be used
23:08:07 <HackEgo> 556) <monqy> i am out of all the fame loops <monqy> and the australien soap opera loops <monqy> so much loop / s omcuh
23:13:42 <HackEgo> 534) <itidus20> software patents strike again <ais523_> that's got to be at least three times, now <ais523_> are they out yet?
23:14:42 <HackEgo> 570) <Phantom_Hoover> FFS, building a perpetual motion machine should not be this hard.
23:14:54 <HackEgo> 267) <oerjan> <Gregor> oerjan: Tell us what (a(b{c}d)*2e)%2 expands to <-- ababcdbcdedbabcdbcdede, i think <Gregor> oerjan: What - the - fuck
23:15:48 <HackEgo> 141) <cheater99> incest is best
23:15:56 <HackEgo> 352) <crystal-cola> 3 = 7/2
23:16:36 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:16:58 <HackEgo> 763) <fungot> [...] we choose only die fittest people of nigeria [...]
23:17:04 -!- augur has joined.
23:17:41 <HackEgo> 837) <Taneb> I don't even know set theory I haven't a clue what is going on <Taneb> wow got that 1 right
23:19:35 <HackEgo> 828) <shachaf> elliott: Apparently Rowan Williams is Primate of All England. <shachaf> CHECKMATE CREATIONISTS
23:20:14 <HackEgo> 783) * Phantom_Hoover moves 0.5 Phantom_Hoover into the Atlantic, and captures fizzie's upper body with 0.5 Phantom_Hoover. <fizzie> Glurk.
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23:33:04 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui +[-+>[<+>]<]
23:33:09 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 12.9
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23:36:46 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui +[-+>[>[-]<<+>]<]
23:36:50 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 10.4
23:37:12 <qfr> Haskell is prospering, there are no boundaries to what faith can achieve! CHECKMATE ATHEISTS!
23:37:48 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui +[-+>[>[-[-[-]]]<<+>]<]
23:37:50 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 10.4
23:39:09 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui +[-+>[>[-[+[-[+]]]]<<+>]<]
23:39:12 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 12.7
23:39:37 <monqy> itidus21: what are you doing
23:40:53 <itidus21> i think i ... didnt think this through monqy
23:41:14 <EgoBot> Score for RocketJSquirrel_suicide: 9.7
23:41:21 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: < is more suicidy
23:42:12 <itidus21> i was imagining that they were non looping conditionals
23:44:04 <ion> What’s bfjoust?
23:46:57 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui +[-+>[>[-]>[-]<<<+>]<]
23:47:00 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 9.9
23:48:32 <nortti> ion: check wiki artice about BF joust
23:49:53 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[-+>[<+>]<]
23:49:57 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 16.2
23:50:26 <ion> nortti: Ok, thanks
23:51:15 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele [+]>>>>>[
23:51:18 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 0.0
23:52:22 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele [+++]
23:52:25 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 15.2
23:52:30 <olsner> !bfjoust test (+.>[+[+]])*31+[-[-]].
23:52:32 <EgoBot> Score for olsner_test: 14.2
23:52:33 <zzo38> CHECKMATE CREATIONISTS? CHECKMATE ATHEISTS? No, you are both wrong.
23:52:53 <monqy> checkmate, everyone
23:53:03 <zzo38> monqy: Are you good to play chess game?
23:53:05 <monqy> checkmate, nobody?
23:53:13 <monqy> I'm not a chess guy
23:55:36 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui [++]++++++++++++++++++++++[-+>[<+>]<]
23:55:39 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 15.6
23:57:00 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui [-]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[-+>[<+>]<]
23:57:04 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 16.3
23:58:35 <zzo38> Just "yes" is not good enough
23:59:07 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui [-]+++++++++++++++[[-+>[<+>]<]+]
23:59:10 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 16.3
23:59:44 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui [-]+++++++++++++++[[-+>[<+>]<]----------------]
23:59:47 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 16.3
00:01:10 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui [-][+][-+>[<+>]<]
00:01:13 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 17.8
00:01:35 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui [[-][+][-+>[<+>]<]]
00:01:39 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 17.1
00:02:41 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>++++++++<[+++])*32[+++++>+++++<]
00:02:43 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 11.1
00:03:09 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui [-][+][-+>[<+>]<][+]
00:03:13 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 17.8
00:03:48 <itidus21> i rushed that one if you wanted to see breakdown
00:04:37 <monqy> what happens when itidus21 devises his very own theory of bfjoust and overtakes slowpoke
00:04:40 <nortti> (nortti) !bfjoust perkele (>++++++++<[+++])*16[+++++>+++++<]
00:04:55 <nortti> (nortti) !bfjoust perkele (>++++++++<[+++])*16[+++++>+++++<]
00:04:59 <itidus21> i stumbled on this at random really
00:05:16 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>++++++++<[+++])*16[+++++>+++++<]
00:05:19 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 11.1
00:07:09 <nortti> !bfjoust (>)*9+[-[-.]>+]-
00:07:09 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
00:07:22 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>)*9+[-[-.]>+]-
00:07:25 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 14.2
00:08:31 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_suicide: 16.9
00:08:54 <nortti> for the love of the fucking $DEITY
00:09:11 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui [-][+][-+>[<+>]<][-]
00:09:15 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 17.8
00:10:09 <nortti> !bfjoust suicide [->+<]
00:10:11 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_suicide: 13.9
00:10:28 <nortti> !bfjoust suicide [->++<+]
00:10:33 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_suicide: 7.2
00:10:39 <nortti> !bfjoust suicide [->++<+-]
00:10:42 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_suicide: 13.4
00:11:02 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_suicide: 17.4
00:12:03 <nortti> my best result is from program actively trying to destroy itself
00:12:17 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui [-][+][-+>[<+>]<][.]
00:12:20 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 17.8
00:12:41 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui [-][+][-][-+>[<+>]<]
00:12:45 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 17.8
00:12:56 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_suicide: 17.4
00:13:18 <nortti> !bfjoust suicide [-.>+<]
00:13:21 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_suicide: 13.5
00:13:52 <nortti> !bfjoust suicide [-.>>>++<<<]]
00:13:55 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_suicide: 0.0
00:14:21 <nortti> !bfjoust suicide [-.>>>++<<<]
00:14:24 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_suicide: 10.5
00:15:20 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui [-][+][-+>[<-->]<]
00:15:24 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 17.8
00:15:45 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 17.8
00:16:11 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 17.8
00:16:26 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 17.1
00:16:58 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui [-]>++++++++++<[-]
00:17:01 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 17.8
00:17:57 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 17.8
00:19:00 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 16.9
00:20:41 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 8.3
00:24:04 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui (+)*130[.][+]
00:24:07 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 15.0
00:24:39 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 14.2
00:25:43 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 16.9
00:25:59 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 16.9
00:30:25 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui +[-+>[<>>]<]
00:30:28 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 8.5
00:31:33 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 0.8
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00:33:43 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 0.0
00:37:14 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui >>>+++>>>>+++<<<<<<<[+][+]
00:37:18 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 2.7
00:38:14 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui +>>>+++>>>>+++<<<<<<<[+][+]
00:38:17 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 2.7
00:39:24 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui >>>+++<<<[+][+]
00:39:28 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 8.5
00:40:51 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui >+>++>+++<<<[+][+]
00:40:55 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 3.9
00:42:46 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui ++++[>-][<----][+][+]
00:42:49 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 1.0
00:48:59 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_hm: 0.0
00:49:44 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui (+)*10>[.]<[+][+]
00:49:48 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 17.2
00:50:33 <itidus21> !bfjoust hudhewui (+)*30>[.]<[+][+]
00:50:37 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_hudhewui: 17.1
00:50:46 <itidus21> so addictive even though im clueless
00:52:36 <itidus21> hmm.. maybe i have been making many false assumptions
00:53:00 <Patashu> if you're going to send a -lot-
00:53:09 <Patashu> and maybe repost the ones that do particularly well in here
00:53:25 <itidus21> thats why i said sorry.. i didnt really plan this..
00:57:40 <shachaf> kmc: You know how you always say that e.g. instead of "data S = forall a. Show a => S a" and then [S], it's more sensible to just use [String]?
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01:00:52 <zzo38> shachaf: I suppose in case you want to use showsPrec
01:02:57 <shachaf> zzo38: Treating Show for the moment as just a type class that contains show :: a -> String
01:03:25 <kmc> shachaf: yeah?
01:03:27 <zzo38> shachaf: Also, I have used something like that in my dvi-processing program, where data Node where { Node :: forall x. NodeClass x => x -> Node; } deriving Typeable; where NodeClass has Typeable as a superclass.
01:03:57 <shachaf> kmc: The question was what the equivalent would be for Read.
01:05:03 <zzo38> shachaf: If you replace Show in there with Read, I doubt it would do much
01:05:20 <kmc> shachaf: maybe there isn't one
01:07:22 <shachaf> Hmm, the case I'm thinking of is actually a bit different.
01:07:51 <shachaf> You can do something like data V where V :: (forall a. Read a => a) -> V
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01:08:26 <shachaf> And then you have a value which you can "examine" in the context of any type which is in Read.
01:08:33 <shachaf> I guess that's the opposite of an existential type, though.
01:09:21 <shachaf> This V would be sort of satisfactory for the use case that someone mentioned to me, except they don't want the Read computation to be done more than once.
01:09:51 <shachaf> Clearly you could do something like data V = V { asInt :: Int, asChar :: Char, ... }, which would work for a closed set of types, and only do the actual "reading" computation once.
01:10:20 <shachaf> But that doesn't work in the type class case, I think.
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01:19:06 <shachaf> Yes, so I guess this is universal rather than existential, so you don't need V at all, for one.
01:23:26 <shachaf> So I guess the short answer would also be "instead of a value :: forall a. Read a => a, you can just have a String", because when the user of the value wants to use it, they already have their specific Read dictionary, because it's universal rather than existential.
01:24:08 <shachaf> But then you don't get the "memoization" for different specific read calls.
01:24:31 <shachaf> Maybe it's possible to do something along the lines of kmc's "generating random functions" thing?
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02:06:37 <hagb4rd> listen to apparat! http://homepage.alice.de/hagbard/arcadia.php
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02:35:03 <zzo38> For mathematical typesetting in dvi-processing, I am having the math lists consisting of "noads" which are similar but different than the "nodes" in non-math lists. It has a class, like this: class Typeable x => NoadClass x where { showNoad :: x -> String; translateNoad :: x -> MathParameters -> ([Node], MathParameters); ... }; I just want to know if you know what methods should be added on
02:38:02 <kmc> are they like burritos
02:38:45 <zzo38> kmc: I don't think so. But if you think it is, tell me how you think so or if you think it isn't, how it isn't so.
02:38:57 <kmc> a new taquería opened 4 blocks from my house
02:39:20 <zzo38> Also, do you mean, it is like burritos in what way?
02:44:08 <oerjan> monad transformers are like taquerias
02:45:05 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe the other one was 11 block.
02:46:57 <shachaf> I like how [ShowVal] ~= [String] and [ReadVal] *also* ~= [String].
02:48:21 <kmc> which one shachaf?
02:48:24 <zzo38> oerjan: In what ways?
02:49:01 <shachaf> Whichever one you were talking about last time you mentioned that one was opening near your house.
02:49:18 <kmc> if it was in the past 3 days then it's the same one
02:49:33 <shachaf> I don't remember when it was.
02:49:43 * shachaf is really bad at remembering "when" something happened.
02:50:38 <oerjan> zzo38: that's a pun on "monads are like burritos"
02:51:22 <oerjan> or is pun the word there
02:51:36 <shachaf> oerjan: I've never seen a taquería where you give them one burrito and they give you a transformed version of it.
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04:25:35 <zzo38> I found an error in section 697 of TeX: The Program. There appears to be not enough space before the logical or sign on the line starting with "if (small_fam(left_delimiter(p)) <> 0)"
04:27:22 <oklopol> is this one of knuth's errorless books where you get thousands of millions for finding a typo
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04:49:26 <zzo38> oklopol: No, only $327.67. And this is for bugs in the program, not for typos. Although it is possible this is due to a bug in the program, but there can also be many other possibilities.
04:50:03 <kmc> oklopol: do you use the long scale?
04:50:51 <zzo38> Sorry I am wrong; it is $327.68
04:51:25 <kmc> oklopol: in the long scale, "billion" = million million
04:51:29 <kmc> old british style
04:52:09 <oklopol> obviously n-illion should mean 1000000^n and not 1000*1000^n
04:52:16 * shachaf is about to post a needlessly long-winded question to StackOverflow!
04:52:32 <zzo38> oklopol: Yes that is more logical. But it is not common.
04:53:45 <oklopol> well there was a time when the metric system was not common. and if someone had used it back then, people would have been like dude that's stupid. and really, it would have been stupid. wait, what's my point.
04:54:20 <oklopol> shachaf: so you could just get the answer from him?
04:54:27 <oklopol> because he knows everything
04:54:37 <zzo38> Myriad style (used in Japanese and Chinese) is the one I like best, though.
04:54:56 <zzo38> But it is not common in English.
04:55:01 <shachaf> Wait, elliott knows everything?
04:55:11 <shachaf> THEN HOW COME HE DIDN"T KNWO WHAT THE TYPE OF A CLOSURE IS????
04:55:36 <shachaf> Checkmate, omniscientists.
04:55:42 <zzo38> oklopol: Do you mean me? Myriad style is counting by ten thousands
04:56:00 <oklopol> that sounds pretty irrelevant to me
04:56:23 <shachaf> zzo38: Where in Canadia are you?
04:56:34 <zzo38> shachaf: British Columbia
04:56:44 <shachaf> Where in British Columbia?
04:57:03 <oklopol> i've been to british britain
04:57:13 <zzo38> If you want to know more precisely, you can try to see which areas the internet service provider that I use is serving in
04:57:23 <shachaf> I'm just wondering vaguely.
04:58:57 <shachaf> I've been to Vancouver, BC!
04:59:22 <zzo38> I have also been to Vancouver, BC
04:59:33 <zzo38> And to Victoria, and a few other places in BC as well
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05:00:16 <zzo38> The Japanese restaurant I have been to in Victoria is better than the ones around where I live at.
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05:00:50 <shachaf> zzo38: Have you been to AMERICA?!
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05:01:10 <zzo38> I usually go to Victoria at around Victoria Day; so you might see us in the Japanese restaurant there
05:01:22 <zzo38> shachaf: Canada is part of North America.
05:01:54 <shachaf> zzo38: I'm talking about AMERICA, the country.
05:02:20 <zzo38> There is no country AMERICA
05:02:41 <shachaf> @google america the country
05:02:43 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States
05:03:25 <kmc> america the book
05:03:37 <zzo38> "United States of America" is often abbreviated as "America" but in Canada we usually abbreviate it as "the States" instead.
05:03:53 <zzo38> But neither of them is a proper name of a country.
05:04:05 <shachaf> Well, have you ever been there?
05:04:10 <shachaf> Say, to Bellingham or Seattle or something?
05:04:16 <zzo38> I have been there, but not much, and I don't remember much
05:04:50 <shachaf> What language do they speak in Canada? Canadian?
05:05:27 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, Canadian English and Canadian French. Outside of Quebec is English mostly, inside Quebec is mostly French (by law).
05:05:44 <zzo38> But the government has to speak and write both English and French.
05:08:32 <zzo38> They used to have the anime convention "Anime Evolution" in Vancouver, BC, but it has now been cancelled; have you seen it?
05:08:38 <dbelange> why should you have to learn french
05:09:02 <shachaf> Is Anime written in English or in French?
05:09:38 <zzo38> dbelange: Do you expect someone who does not speak English to run England?
05:10:11 <dbelange> no but then I don't expect someone who doesn't speak welsh to run wales
05:10:19 <dbelange> or scots gaelic to run scotland
05:10:43 <zzo38> shachaf: I do not understand your question. This is in British Columbia and is speaking mostly English (some people understand Japanese a bit too; I was once wearing a sign with some Japanese writing, a few people recognized it)
05:10:46 <dbelange> since it's pretty clear that english canada conquered the other canada
05:11:01 <dbelange> they should just all be english now
05:11:03 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you know Japanese?
05:11:44 <zzo38> I know the kana, and some kanji, and a few other words too, so I can sometimes read it a bit.
05:12:27 <dbelange> can you read this http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%90%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC%E3%83%B3%E6%AD%BB%E3%81%AE%E8%A1%8C%E9%80%B2
05:12:57 <shachaf> I can sort of read hiragana but not katakana.
05:13:47 <zzo38> dbelange: A little bit but not much.
05:14:11 <zzo38> shachaf: I can read both hiragana and katakana fully; but I don't know all the words
05:14:32 <zzo38> But I do sometimes look up words that I don't know in WWWJDIC
05:14:32 <shachaf> zzo38: Should I learn katakana?
05:15:04 <zzo38> shachaf: If you want to read Japanese, then yes, you should learn hiragana, katakana, and kanji.
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05:16:46 <oklopol> the title says "go-who of button death".
05:17:32 <shachaf> zzo38: My sister kept trying to get me to read some manga, so I ordered it, but in Japanese instead of in English.
05:17:38 <shachaf> I guess I'll have to learn Japanese now. :-(
05:17:43 <kmc> on purpose?
05:17:55 <shachaf> Fortunately it has furigana.
05:18:03 <shachaf> Which is at least something...
05:18:23 <zzo38> Furigana is good for pronounce something in Japanese which you do not know the speech
05:18:33 <pikhq_> Trust me when I say furigana is not as big of an aid as you would think.
05:18:51 <shachaf> Hence I recently started memorizing the kana, because I guess you gotta start somewhere, right?
05:19:07 <zzo38> pikhq_: I agree it is not so good try to understand the text; but for pronounce it help
05:19:17 <pikhq_> It makes it a bit easier to look things up, and helps if the reading is potentially ambiguous.
05:19:38 <shachaf> Someone upvoted my question on StackOverflow!
05:19:43 <shachaf> I'm rich! I'm rich! HA HA HA HA HA!
05:19:44 <pikhq_> But you have to already know the word for furigana to help you with understanding written text.
05:19:47 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes, it does also make it easier to look things up in WWWJDIC or whatever, and for sorting
05:20:12 <oklopol> well i know about 5 times more words in furigana than in kanji.
05:20:15 <pikhq_> Of course, furigana is meant for native speakers who are learning writing, so it helps there immensely.
05:20:26 <zzo38> To understand written text in Japanese, using the mixed kana and kanji which is common, is more efficient if you can read it, than only one or the other.
05:20:27 <pikhq_> oklopol: That's because you're lame.
05:20:38 <shachaf> The other thing that furigana will help me with is typing kanji into my computer to get a translation.
05:20:49 <oklopol> well it's because i had this dictionary where the kanji were so small i didn't really pay attention.
05:21:00 <shachaf> I can type Japanese phonetically easily enough, but I would have no idea how to type unknown kanji.
05:21:06 <oklopol> so i would just read the romaji.
05:21:14 <oklopol> which is equal to furigana.
05:21:33 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes; it does help with that, I can enter the word in WWWJDIC or something like that, and find the kanji in the list that it results. If there is no furigana, you can use stroke counts and SKIP codes and so on for searching.
05:21:43 <pikhq_> shachaf: That's what I mean by "bit easier to look things up". You can type it in instead of having to plug in the structure, if you don't happen to know other words with those kanji.
05:22:03 <shachaf> How long will it take me to be able to read the book?
05:22:38 <pikhq_> shachaf: Anywhere from a couple weeks to several months. It's *really* hard to say without knowing what book it is.
05:22:49 <pikhq_> And it also depends on the amount of effort you put into it, of course.
05:22:49 <zzo38> (WWWJDIC supports romaji for input only; it cannot output romaji. But I do not think there is any use for it to output romaji; romaji input is useful, though, in case you don't have IME, or don't want to use IME for this purpose)
05:22:54 <shachaf> pikhq_: _DEATH NOTE_ volume 1.
05:23:09 <shachaf> I vaguely put furigana in the same mental category as nikud. But maybe it's not a good comparison at all.
05:23:53 <pikhq_> Hmm. I don't recall that being very hard. Maybe a couple months until you can work your way through if you're devoted?
05:24:18 <shachaf> I guess memorizing the katakana will be a good step?
05:24:29 <oklopol> probably you'll just shachaf out after a week or so.
05:24:42 <pikhq_> Yeah. Katakana and then kanji.
05:25:03 <zzo38> I have many Japanese mangas too; they are Akagi. I even have the special edition and the guidebook for the Akagi TV show.
05:25:04 <oklopol> shachaf: nah just kidding, i'm sure you'll shachaf the whole thing.
05:25:04 <shachaf> pikhq_: The katakana I assume I can just go over one by one until I know them.
05:25:14 <shachaf> pikhq_: What's a good approach to learning some kanji?
05:25:23 <pikhq_> shachaf: Basically. It's no worse than hiragana, just different glyphs.
05:25:25 <zzo38> The latest one I have is volume 24; apparently no more have been released yet.
05:25:37 <shachaf> pikhq_: Right. It's crazy, but not really crazier than, say, uppercase letter.
05:25:53 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, like that.
05:25:58 <shachaf> zzo38: What's a good way to acquire Japanese manga/other Japanese texts to read?
05:26:36 <zzo38> shachaf: I ordered them from a Japanese store in Vancouver called Half Moon Books; but I don't know what is best in your area, or other ways
05:26:45 <kmc> is there a standard 1:1 mapping between the two kinds of kana?
05:26:52 <kmc> also is there a good reason for there to be two kinds?
05:26:57 <pikhq_> The two schemes for kanji learning that I'm aware of that aren't ludicrously, retardedly *bad* are "Kanji Damage" http://kanjidamage.com and "Remembering the Kanji" http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Kanji-Volume-Complete-Characters/dp/0824835921/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334554005&sr=1-1
05:27:02 <shachaf> kmc: Yes, there's a direct mapping.
05:27:07 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, it is like uppercase and lowercase in English, but they are not used in the same way as uppercase and lowercase in English
05:27:12 <shachaf> kmc: Katakana are usually used for loanwords.
05:27:13 <pikhq_> In either case, use an SRS.
05:27:20 <shachaf> Also for names of plants and animals, apparently.
05:27:29 <shachaf> And a few other things, like transcribing sounds.
05:27:46 <pikhq_> And emphasis, and sounding vaguely robotic, etc.
05:27:54 <oklopol> in finland, we have nokikana
05:28:04 <pikhq_> Alternately, for sounding really insanely old.
05:28:26 <pikhq_> (before ~1940, katakana was used for normal Japanese writing more than hiragana)
05:28:40 <shachaf> kmc: Someone learning English could ask a similar thing about uppercase letters.
05:28:47 <shachaf> Which are, if you consider it, pretty insane.
05:29:03 <kmc> marking the beginning of a sentence is useful
05:29:08 <shachaf> For the first letter of a sentence -- and for a few other things, like names -- you take a letter from a completely different alphabet with a 1:1 mapping to the regular one?
05:29:12 <kmc> disambiging proper nouns too
05:29:15 <shachaf> And also for emphasizing a word?
05:29:20 <oklopol> and capitals are a good way to indicate that someone is insanely old.
05:29:24 <kmc> it's a bit crazy yes, but it's also useful
05:29:36 <kmc> TYPING IN ALL CAPS IS MORE OF A 14 YO ON YOUTUBE THINK I THINK
05:29:41 <shachaf> Well, I speak a language that doesn't have capital letters and it seems to work fine.
05:29:50 <shachaf> kmc: Write, but emphasizing just ONE word is pretty common.
05:29:52 <kmc> all languages "work fine"
05:30:05 <kmc> shachaf: i was responding to oklopol
05:30:14 <pikhq_> kmc: LINGVA LATINA says "what?"
05:30:22 <shachaf> Did I just type "write"? :-(
05:30:30 <shachaf> I think I must've started to type a sentence about writing.
05:30:37 <shachaf> And then I saw kmc's comment and changed my mind at the last moment.
05:30:38 <oklopol> been trying to find a homonym for wrong
05:30:43 <kmc> then you finished that sentence about writing
05:31:15 <shachaf> It's times like this I wish the channel wasn't logged.
05:35:09 <zzo38> I like the channel logged all the time
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05:48:24 <pikhq_> http://sprunge.us/AAdi Threaded assembly is silly-looking.
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06:28:14 <shachaf> I am having USEFUL DISCOURSE on my StackOverflow question!
06:29:22 <monqy> just how useful is this discourse
06:29:32 <monqy> useful, you say, but is it useful enough?
06:29:36 <shachaf> Well, someone told me I was wrong.
06:29:50 <shachaf> So I said WELL, OK, I WAS WRONG, BUT YOU WERE WRONG TOO SO HA.
06:30:00 <shachaf> That's what you're supposed to do, right?
06:30:00 <monqy> that;s pretty darn useful
06:30:40 <monqy> elliott wouldn't have been wrong though, because elliott is always right
06:30:42 <pikhq_> It gets stranger still if you decide to stick your words elsewhere: http://sprunge.us/IGGC
06:31:52 <Sgeo> Why am I awake
06:32:16 <Sgeo> hi monqy hi monqy hi monqy
06:32:25 <Sgeo> hi shachaf hi monqy
06:32:27 <monqy> shachaf: join the party
06:32:30 <monqy> shachaf: hi shachaf
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06:32:47 <Sgeo> oh no did shachaf and monqy switch places?
06:32:56 <shachaf> Sgeo: I'm quitting hi. :-(
06:33:03 <monqy> Sgeo: I quit quitting hi
06:36:57 <zzo38> (Density Endo) is different from (Codensity Endo); (Codensity Endo) is a list monad (you even get concatenation for free, although Edward Kmett doesn't accept that because he insists Plus to have Functor as a superclass), but (Density Endo) is something like a number that can only be multiplied by a natural number and nothing else.
06:41:54 <zzo38> (Yoneda Endo) is like Maybe but as far as I know you cannot get the monad for free from that
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08:36:51 <shachaf> kmc: https://github.com/madrobby/semicolon.js/pull/6 reminded me of you.
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11:36:48 <qfr> Chavs, neds, spides
11:37:08 <qfr> Irish thing
11:37:55 <Phantom_Hoover> None of my Belfastese relatives have ever said that word.
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14:10:51 <hagb4rd> > [x*y | x <- [1..10], y <- [1..10]]
14:10:51 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,3,6,9,12,15,18,21,24,27,30,...
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15:07:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, what happened with the whole IPv4 depletion thing?
15:08:19 <ais523> it's still depleting, just there are smaller and smaller supplies left
15:08:29 <ais523> the supplies now mostly belong to individual ISPs, rather than the RIRs
15:08:52 <ais523> you could ask Ilari for info when he turns up, he knows a lot about that subject
15:17:52 <Madoka-Kaname> " Organizations that obtained IP addresses in the 1980s were often allocated far more addresses than they actually required, because the initial classful network allocation method was inadequate to reflect reasonable usage. For example, large companies or universities were assigned class A address blocks with over 16 million IPv4 addresses each, because the next smaller allocation unit, a class B block with 65536 addresses, was too small fo
15:18:22 <Madoka-Kaname> Wait, you /couldn't/ allocate a submask like 255.240.0.0?
15:19:41 <ais523> but you couldn't back then, CIDR hadn't been invented yet
15:20:23 <ais523> and so the backbone routers wouldn't have been able to handle it
15:22:29 <fizzie> APNIC is still the only RIR that has ran out; the rest (RIPE, ARIN, AFRINIC, LACNIC) still have addresses.
15:22:42 <fizzie> Not terribly many, though.
15:22:59 <ais523> oh, I thought ARIN and RIPE would have run out by now
15:23:52 <fizzie> RIPE might go this year, or possibly not, depending on whose estimate you look. ARIN is likely to be the next after that.
15:24:13 <fizzie> There's a summary graph at http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/plotend.png
15:25:34 <fizzie> ISTR that they tweaked the policies at the others after the APNIC depletion, so the burn rate is somewhat lower.
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15:27:22 <fizzie> That was AISNIC, depleting.
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15:41:44 <Phantom_Hoover> It's much easier to lose track of one or two than the 4 constituent countries of the UK.
15:42:07 <fizzie> There's one Finland in Finland.
15:42:45 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, did you see the update?
15:42:48 <qfr> I'm chatting from IPv6 right now
15:43:07 <qfr> RocketJSquirrel well, a few years back it was, somewhat
15:43:46 <qfr> RocketJSquirrel: What? I have seen only one guy on IRC so far who has IPv6 from his ISP
15:43:52 <qfr> I don't have IPv6 from my ISP either
15:43:57 <fizzie> I'm tempted to go all "I was chatting from IPv6 back in the 6bone days".
15:43:59 <qfr> It's just my proxy
15:44:01 <Phantom_Hoover> RocketJSquirrel, that wouldn't be unreasonable if you didn't pay too much attention? Although that would be hard, given that the subdivisions are really obvious in the Balkans what with all the wars.
15:44:17 <fizzie> That was something like 2002, I suppose.
15:44:29 <qfr> I didn't even get internet access until 2001
15:44:33 <qfr> And I'm 25
15:44:36 <RocketJSquirrel> Phantom_Hoover: btw, the "Scotland is an island" thing was a ref to ... Sgeo? I forget who.
15:45:11 * Sgeo thinks it's likely to refer to me
15:47:13 <RocketJSquirrel> Coming back to the US from the Czech Republic, they pulled me aside for "additional questioning." After poking at the computer for ten or fifteen minutes, the guy asked me exactly one additional question: "Have you ever lived in New England?" Confused, I answered "no," and was allowed on my way.
15:47:40 <Sgeo> RocketJSquirrel, thanks for the ... insultingness
15:48:50 <RocketJSquirrel> (Although Rockie the flying squirrel certainly wasn't a jerk)
15:49:15 * Sgeo non-conspicuously checks Wikipedia for something
15:50:53 <Phantom_Hoover> "Next you're going to be telling me the Isle of Man's in it as well"-- oh wait
15:51:38 <Sgeo> I actually knew.... something about Ireland
15:52:19 <RocketJSquirrel> Phantom_Hoover: To be fair, all I expect of average American X is to know where England, Scotland and Ireland are, and the political division of Ireland. Even knowing where Wales is is a bonus.
15:52:58 <Sgeo> I think, I'll stay away from geography
15:52:59 <Phantom_Hoover> You can't forget Wales, Wales is import-- I can't, I just can't.
15:53:02 <Sgeo> Geometry's fine though
15:54:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Not once you've read the Penguin Dictionary of Cruel and Unusual Geometry.
15:54:23 <RocketJSquirrel> Phantom_Hoover: Given that my expected knowledge of Americans for Asia is "China and Japan are not the same country", I'd take what I can get.
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15:55:08 <Phantom_Hoover> RocketJSquirrel, please tell me they'd know that Mexico is in North America.
15:55:12 <Sgeo> RocketJSquirrel, hey, I knew that! (And vaguely what they look like)
15:55:37 <RocketJSquirrel> Phantom_Hoover: Those who know that Canada is not our largest state usually know that Mexico is in North America.
15:56:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm going to assume the Canada thing is a joke because come on.
15:56:24 <Sgeo> Canada's not a US state? </joke>
15:56:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Honest question, do you have to do geography much in American schools?
15:57:05 <RocketJSquirrel> Phantom_Hoover: Not much, no, it's conflated with history and history means WWII because we apparently don't care about any other event since the inception of man.
15:57:45 <Phantom_Hoover> You're completely leaving out the mythical status accorded to the founding of the nation.
15:59:03 <Phantom_Hoover> God bless George Washington for shooting him while he watched a play :')
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16:18:33 <Sgeo> elliott, did you do the update?
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16:23:43 * elliott almost starts writing an answer about partial evaluation and specialisation to http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10170406/seq-on-partially-applied-functions, but then realises it's that STM guy.
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16:35:21 <ais523> bleh, why are existing programming languages bad at representing 3D cellular automata with loads of space in a reasonably efficient manner
16:35:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Did he just cease to exist after IPv4 address depletion, his reason for being satisfied?
16:35:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: He's been gone for years.
16:36:08 <elliott> He's still on freenode, though.
16:36:57 <ais523> I was talking to him recently, in another channel
16:37:01 <ais523> looks like he just got bored of this one
16:38:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: He was last seen in 2010 or maybe 2011.
16:38:43 <elliott> shachaf: I like how dons gave an incorrect answer to your question.
16:39:06 <elliott> shachaf: I also like how you didn't phrase your question title as a question. :(
16:39:18 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, of course he was here in 2011, he was giving us a live IPv4 feed.
16:40:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Was that in 2011?
16:40:55 <elliott> shachaf: I also like how Haskell *doesn't* have the first-class universals you mentioned; you can't have [forall a. (Read a) => a].
16:43:11 <elliott> 2011-04-30.txt:05:24:44: -!- Ilari has parted #esoteric.
16:43:15 <elliott> and it might be oerjan's fault.
16:43:30 <elliott> 2011-04-30.txt:05:22:00: <oerjan> Ilari: i am _so_ tempted to ban you for ignoring my comments...
16:43:30 <elliott> 2011-04-30.txt:05:24:41: -!- Ilari_antrcomp has parted #esoteric.
16:43:30 <elliott> 2011-04-30.txt:05:24:44: -!- Ilari has parted #esoteric.
16:44:23 <elliott> Actually, those lines are directly adjacent in the logs, so it almost certainly was, esp. since it was a /part, not a /quit.
16:48:57 -!- cheater_ has joined.
16:50:31 <elliott> Bonus follow-up: 05:25:24: <oerjan> ...either that, or for lacking a sense of humor.
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17:03:29 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Mon Apr 16 18:04:00
17:12:39 <elliott> <ksf> someone explain to me like I'm six what's the difference between sufficiently compositional actors and FRP.
17:12:47 <elliott> Does anyone know a word for "everything" that six year olds would understand?
17:17:12 <elliott> http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/129452/using-triggers-to-orderid-associated-with-orderline-when-i-add-new-product
17:17:37 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Weeeell, it would have to be a 100 mile view if you ask me.
17:18:02 <elliott> The actor model has no notion of behaviours, and is fundamentally based around discrete message-passing loops.
17:18:18 <elliott> FRP is based on continuous time, has behaviours, and does not do message-passing.
17:18:32 <elliott> I mean... they're both about concurrency.
17:19:24 -!- coppro has joined.
17:24:01 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: In fact, I'm having trouble thinking of ANY overlap between the two...
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17:42:10 <tswett> elliott: hey, do you know of any web servers that don't suck?
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18:22:33 <oerjan> explains why i cannot fit it together
18:22:33 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:22:37 <lambdabot> elliott said 1h 37m 30s ago: Thanks!
18:22:45 <oerjan> elliott: you're welcome!
18:23:28 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> 2011-04-30.txt:05:24:44: -!- Ilari has parted #esoteric.
18:23:29 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> 2011-04-30.txt:05:22:00: <oerjan> Ilari: i am _so_ tempted to ban you for ignoring my comments...
18:23:30 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> 2011-04-30.txt:05:24:41: -!- Ilari_antrcomp has parted #esoteric.
18:23:32 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> 2011-04-30.txt:05:24:44: -!- Ilari has parted #esoteric.
18:23:36 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> Actually, those lines are directly adjacent in the logs, so it almost certainly was, esp. since it was a /part, not a /quit.
18:23:54 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: hey i was going to pretend i didn't see that!
18:24:27 * oerjan sweeps Phantom_Hoover under the rug
18:25:00 * oerjan helpfully aims a firehose at Phantom_Hoover
18:25:15 <elliott> Don't worry, I would have been surprised if you did not ignore it.
18:25:38 <Phantom_Hoover> For we are actually on the planet Spozz, where the atmosphere is fluorine!
18:25:38 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
18:27:01 <elliott> Lost terminal is when his internet blows up.
18:27:25 <elliott> Be careful with that paranoia, or you'll start accusing people of sockpuppetry.
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18:37:14 <elliott> "I can't wait 'till I get to write my own monad tutorial! I wonder what I can spice mine up with..."
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18:39:29 <itidus20> elliott: i will rough them up so they never write a monad tutorial.
18:39:53 <Phantom_Hoover> return maps a monad to a crappy analogy for that monad
18:40:18 <Phantom_Hoover> join maps a crappy analogy of a crappy analogy for a monad to a crappy analogy for that monad.
18:40:53 <itidus20> my roughing up of course is pretending someone wants to hear all i have to say
18:44:09 <HackEgo> 605) [from 2009] <fizzie> That's confusing. I have been indoctrinated to believe W|A, but on the other hand it's hard to unbelieve a book with such a ridiculously impressive name as "Handbook of physical testing of paper, Volume 2".
18:44:21 <elliott> ais523: should P'' be in [[Category:Brainfuck derivatives]]?
18:44:43 <ais523> elliott: no, it isn't a derivative of BF
18:44:45 <elliott> (also, does it count as implemented?)
18:44:56 <elliott> ais523: yeah, I was kidding; I'll put it in [[Category:Brainfuck]] though
18:46:26 <elliott> ais523: hmm, implement P'' so I can mark it as implemented, please ;)
18:46:46 <Deewiant> Wow, indoctrinated to believe W|A in less than 8 months.
18:47:06 <qfr> http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/253667/oraclegoogle_trial_starts_monday_outcome_could_affect_all_developers.html ah yes, the Oracle vs. Google lawsuit started
18:47:46 <elliott> Deewiant: It exploded pretty quickly.
18:47:52 <itidus20> i am beginning to get that mental callous against patent lawsuit news finally
18:49:10 <RocketJSquirrel> "Of the seven patents it originally asserted, five have been invalidated by the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, and a sixth expires at the end of the year."
18:50:57 <qfr> But there is more than just the patents
18:51:07 <qfr> Other intellectual property, too
18:51:12 <ais523> qfr: also some very dubious copyright claims
18:51:15 <qfr> I guess it's going to take 1-2 years anyways
18:51:28 <ais523> in particular, Oracle are trying to argue that implementing the Java API is a copyright infringement
18:51:38 <itidus20> "Reeen. There was another patent lawsuit. Good night Ren." "Go to sleep Stimpy" .... [Bloodshot eyes looking around in the dark].. optic nerves pulsing
18:52:19 <qfr> ais523 that one sounds alarming
18:52:42 <qfr> I don't know the state of the Java language standard
18:52:54 <ais523> qfr: people have been pointing out how Oracle would be sued to oblivion if they actually won it, by the inventors of SQL :)
18:53:06 <itidus20> zipping sound, huddled up under blanket
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18:55:13 <ais523> ais523 is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
18:55:19 <ais523> hmm, seems it was set up to use su instead…
18:55:37 <qfr> I must admit I never use su
18:55:49 <qfr> I tend to have a separate root shell
18:55:55 <qfr> And when I no longer need it I just exit
18:55:59 <ais523> well I only just hired this server
18:56:02 <qfr> Wait, in X I need a su for that, though
18:56:15 <ais523> and I'm trying to figure out how I get a root shell on it
18:56:17 <itidus20> i heard that Maybe from Haskell is a copyright infringement
18:56:27 <qfr> itidus20 lol
18:56:40 <ais523> feels /really weird/ working at a root shell, but I need to to set up sudo
18:56:52 <qfr> What's wrong with a root shell?
18:56:52 <itidus20> i wouldn't know what it is though.. just a word i keep hearing here
18:57:06 <ais523> just I'm not used to them, and don't like doing stuff that doesn't need root at them
18:57:20 <itidus20> basically since microsoft isn't selling any haskell interpreters they decided to destroy haskell
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19:00:16 <ais523> oh, that's interesting
19:00:21 <ais523> I need to "sg admin" before I can use sudo
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19:00:27 <ais523> I like that, in a way, it's a nice security feature
19:01:09 <elliott> anyway, that's just a bug in the default installation; admin accounts should be in the admin group
19:01:26 <elliott> (not that i would expect anything different from a VPS provider messed up enough to meet your requirements...)
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19:02:08 <ais523> oh, /now/ they tell me
19:02:10 <ais523> "once you have connected to your server, you must use the 'su -' command to switch to root on your server."
19:02:34 <ais523> now I need to work out what locales are installed, if any
19:02:37 <ais523> I'll just use C, I guess
19:03:47 <ais523> next thing is to remove root's password
19:04:09 <elliott> (I have forgotten the -l before...)
19:05:20 <elliott> ais523: that doesn't remove root's password!
19:05:33 <ais523> but it does make it unusable, which is what I wanted
19:06:09 <ais523> huh, this thing didn't have any sort of firewall
19:06:16 <ais523> or at least, iptables wasn't installed
19:06:33 <ais523> presumably there's a hardware firewall, but they'd have no idea how I'd want it configured, so it's probably quite permissive
19:07:59 <elliott> or it blocks tons of things because they don't want to deal with irc dcc bots and the like
19:09:23 <nortti> it it specified where the head has to be on the tape at the start of execution of P'' program?
19:10:41 <ais523> oh come on, the kernel modules they provide are for a different kernel than the kernel they provide
19:10:56 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:11:49 <ais523> and the advice for updating them involves wgetting stuff to the root dir
19:22:57 <ais523> elliott: what file contains the list of modules you want the server to load during startup?
19:23:37 <elliott> ais523: there are command-line tools to manipulate it, I think
19:25:38 <elliott> "The entire park is within the jurisdiction of the United States District Court for the District of Wyoming, causing it to be the only federal court district that includes portions of more than one state (Idaho, Montana and Wyoming). Law professor Brian C. Kalt has argued that it may be impossible to impanel a jury in compliance with the Vicinage Clause of the Sixth Amendment for a crime committed solely in the unpopulated Idaho portion of the pa
19:25:38 <elliott> rk (and that it would be difficult to do so for a crime committed solely in the lightly-populated Montana portion).[121] One defendant accused of a wildlife-related crime in the Montana portion of the park attempted to raise this argument.[122] He eventually pleaded guilty.[123]"
19:26:09 <elliott> THANKS FOR NOTHING, BRIAN C. KALT!
19:26:45 <ais523> that's obvious, you have to plead guilty because pleading not guilty would lead to a paradox
19:31:26 <nortti> elliott: quick and dirty P'' implementation in python with head starting at the rightmost cell: http://db.tt/dCaSNFT8
19:31:50 <nortti> written on a cellphone
19:32:09 <elliott> print str(mem[:memp])+str(mem[memp:])
19:32:12 <elliott> err, isn't that just print str(mem)?
19:33:22 <nortti> no. it shows sonething like [0][1,0], so you cam see where head was at the end
19:34:00 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
19:35:47 <nortti> elliott: Does the lambda seem ok or did iit result on mojibake along the way
19:36:15 <nortti> s/seem ok/look normal/
19:36:16 <elliott> They don't render properly here, alas.
19:36:32 <ais523> anyway, this server also does ipv6, which is nice
19:41:09 <ais523> more than half of hosting companies do nowadays, I think
19:41:13 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:41:17 -!- augur has joined.
19:41:24 <ais523> which is good, because hopefully eventually the world will be v6-capable without ridiculous hoops to jump through
19:43:16 <nortti> "When you log into a unix machine you can finger your friends. You can also get head, and get tail (of a file), take a dump, or mount something (a drive). You may also fsck your drive"
19:44:34 -!- zzo38 has joined.
19:45:26 <HackEgo> 323) <Gregor> I use LiGNUXFCE+apps <Gregor> That's pronounced by saying "Linux" and then vomiting, btw.
19:45:39 <HackEgo> 674) <elliott> Magnetic butterfly is slower than cat and restarting if you make a mistake is slower than vi is slower than mind-reading.
19:46:00 <HackEgo> 424) <zzo38> Sanity is insufficient by itself. Many other things are also important.
19:46:09 <HackEgo> 199) <Zuu> it seems that CUIL is dead
19:46:16 <HackEgo> 45) <Deewiant> Reality isn't a part of physics
19:46:21 <ais523> elliott: bleh, I misread 674 as being from zzo38, that would have made it so much better
19:46:39 <ais523> 199 is the worst one there, easily
19:46:44 <ais523> the others are all pretty good
19:47:03 <nortti> is 674 reference to that xkcd comic
19:47:58 <ais523> nortti: yes, or probably said in response to a mention of the comic
19:49:33 <elliott> nah, I wasn't referencing xkcd
19:49:40 <elliott> I was replying to other people who were
19:49:56 <HackEgo> *poof* <Zuu> it seems that CUIL is dead
19:51:09 <elliott> ais523: did you see a few days ago? Zuu made the most ineffectual ragequit ever
19:51:09 <ais523> elliott: it does indeed look more like a reference to an xkcd reference, rather than the reference itself
19:52:04 <elliott> he spent about ten minutes asking if we ever talked about anything other than haskell here, and got the reply "yes", and I gave him specific log links showing so; then he said he just wanted confirmation that we didn't so he could leave without tarnishing his reputation as someone who likes programming languages
19:54:52 * elliott hecks RocketJSquirrel's aim
19:54:53 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:55:07 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: aim hecking backfired).
19:55:35 <nortti> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root 24 Oct 29 1929 /bin/ed
19:56:11 -!- coppro has joined.
19:56:45 <ais523> for both creation yeat /and/ filesize
19:57:04 <nortti> I just love making my filesystem look screwy
19:57:56 -!- elliott has joined.
19:58:03 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
19:58:03 -!- elliott has joined.
19:58:58 <nortti> (that is not the real ed. it is just shell script running /usr/bin/busybox ed)
19:59:35 <ais523> nortti: why shellscript? you can just symlink it to busybox, can't you?
19:59:50 <ais523> busybox looks at the name it was run under to figure out what to do
20:00:20 <ais523> oh, but then you wouldn't be able to get the screwy date, unless you screwed up busybox's date
20:00:40 <nortti> but then I woildn't get that filesize. I wanted it to match gnu's ed joke
20:01:01 <ais523> oh, I don't know the specific joke
20:02:36 <nortti> I found it on gnu.org/fun site
20:03:09 <nortti> http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg
20:04:19 <shachaf> elliott: how predictable !
20:04:49 <elliott> nortti: by that metric, most sites I visit belong to google
20:05:59 <nortti> does google host those sites under it's own domain?
20:06:20 <shachaf> elliott: Did you know dons gave an incorrect answer to my question?!
20:06:27 <shachaf> elliott: And that I didn't phrase my question title as a question?
20:06:32 <shachaf> elliott: Also, the question body.
20:08:00 <elliott> shachaf: Anyway, with the Typeable constraint it's pretty trivial to do.
20:08:07 <elliott> Will you give me "the reps" if I give the obvious answer for that?
20:08:15 <shachaf> elliott: Trivial as in MemoCombinators style?
20:08:34 <elliott> shachaf: Yes. Or uglymemo style.
20:08:37 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 18.9
20:08:44 <shachaf> uglymemo = unsafePerformIO?
20:08:57 <shachaf> elliott: Did you see augustss's answer?
20:09:01 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 18.4
20:09:08 <elliott> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/uglymemo
20:09:09 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 18.9
20:09:13 <elliott> shachaf: augustss did not leave an answer.
20:09:24 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 18.9
20:09:30 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele [.+.]
20:09:34 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 17.6
20:09:40 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele [.+.+]
20:09:44 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 20.3
20:09:45 <shachaf> elliott: The answer is "no". – augustss 12 hours ago
20:09:52 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele [.+.+.+]
20:09:55 <shachaf> THAT LOOKS LIEK AN ANSWER TO ME
20:09:56 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 18.5
20:10:21 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele [.+.+][.+.+]
20:10:25 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 20.8
20:10:38 * elliott decides answering shachaf's question will be more pain than it's worth.
20:10:59 <shachaf> I'm glad I won't have to give you all that karma.
20:11:03 <zzo38> Do you left-align the convenience amount on your cheques for security purposes?
20:11:08 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele [.+.+][.+.+][.+.+]
20:11:12 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 20.8
20:11:47 <shachaf> zzo38: Which part is the convenience amount?
20:13:33 <elliott> > typeOf (undefined :: TypeRep)
20:14:03 <shachaf> elliott: I like how 5 people upvoted dons's answer.
20:14:12 <zzo38> shachaf: The part in digits near the date.
20:14:27 <shachaf> Probably because he's dons. :-(
20:14:31 -!- augur_ has joined.
20:14:38 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:15:15 <shachaf> zzo38: I usually left-align it out of habit.
20:15:21 <ais523> wow, I requested 16GB of storage, they gave me 16GiB
20:15:21 <zzo38> The bank has told me that cheques are valid for six months from the date written on there, so sometimes I enter dates five months in the past to give the recipient only one month to deposit it.
20:15:27 <ais523> that's… uncharacteristically nice of someone to do that
20:15:30 <shachaf> I don't expect much security on my cheques.
20:15:51 <ais523> shachaf: no, disk space
20:16:03 <ais523> 16GB of RAM would be rather expensive to hire
20:16:33 <ais523> indeed, that seems about right
20:16:41 <shachaf> That soudns rather expensive.
20:16:53 <ais523> I'm not surprised that there are people prepared to offer that much, but it is a bit large
20:16:56 <shachaf> You can buy 16GB of RAM for your computer for much less than that.
20:16:57 <elliott> shachaf: Actually, this is a pain.
20:18:26 <elliott> shachaf: There's no function ((Typeable a) => a -> TypeRep -> Dynamic) that casts the argument to that TypeRep.
20:18:53 <elliott> So you can't write read' :: String -> TypeRep -> Dynamic.
20:18:55 <zzo38> shachaf: Cheques do not really have a lot of security, but I make it secure with what I have, by left-aligning the convenience amount, putting bars on both sides of the legal amount, etc. I do have the idea better system for cheques security, which involves a digital signature, which can optionally be encrypted with the public key of the recipient too.
20:18:59 <elliott> Actually, wait, that wouldn't even work.
20:19:13 <elliott> Wait, no, even that wouldn't work.
20:19:16 <shachaf> zzo38: You should make your cheques secure Knuth-style.
20:19:22 <elliott> shachaf: It's impossible without writing a new typeclass.
20:19:25 <ais523> OK, seems that iptables doesn't block connections from localhost
20:19:36 <ais523> either that, or ufw's setup for it specifically allows those
20:19:39 <ais523> that makes sense, really
20:20:01 <elliott> shachaf: I get the feeling you already know the answer to the question.
20:20:15 <shachaf> elliott: It doesn't *sound* like it should require a new type class.
20:21:00 <zzo38> Will something like the way NodeClass in dvi-processing is implemented, work for what you are trying to make?
20:22:18 <shachaf> elliott: I TOTALLY JUST SHOWED DONS, MAN
20:24:38 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: nortti).
20:29:30 <elliott> shachaf: You can't do it because you can't write:
20:29:35 <elliott> foo :: (forall a. (Read a, Typeable a) => TypeRep -> a) -> (forall a. (Read a, Typeable a) => a)
20:29:39 <elliott> because the forall and constraints float up.
20:31:48 <elliott> shachaf: http://sprunge.us/CHSj
20:32:00 <elliott> shachaf: This works, but I bet it doesn't actually memoise.
20:32:16 <elliott> Because (memo (...)) is under an invisible lambad.
20:33:46 <elliott> shachaf: Yes, it's impossible because you want a quantifier-less version to memoise, but since read's return type has to be known at use (unless it's in a type-lambda), you can't make such a version.
20:36:31 <elliott> I found the least-helpful kind tutorial ever: http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/scagx/understanding_haskell_kinds/c4czblv?context=1
20:38:45 <shachaf> elliott: Right, yours doesn't memoize.
20:39:17 <elliott> shachaf: <elliott> shachaf: Yes, it's impossible because you want a quantifier-less version to memoise, but since read's return type has to be known at use (unless it's in a type-lambda), you can't make such a version.
20:39:37 <elliott> (And you want a quantifier-less version to memoise because any quantifier will mean you'll end up stuck under a type-lambda, defeating the memoisation.)
20:40:19 <elliott> You *might* be able to create the mutable memo-table outside of the type lambda... but it'll be very ugly and unsafePerformIOy.
20:40:45 <shachaf> Right, that's the sort of think I was thinking about doing now...
20:41:39 <elliott> shachaf: Actually, I can imagine a pure memoisation solution working... but it would be a pain to set up, because TypeRep is abstract.
20:42:06 <shachaf> elliott: You mean an infinite-trie style thing?
20:42:07 <elliott> Actually, that wouldn't work.
20:42:17 <elliott> I was thinking: Construct the infinite trie from the TypeReps, guarding each element behind a ReadVal.
20:42:21 <elliott> But then each individual element won't be shared.
20:42:51 <elliott> Well, you can't have InfiniteTree (forall a. (Show a, Typeable a) => a).
20:42:58 <elliott> So you need to stuff it into something monomorphic.
20:43:45 <elliott> shachaf: Anyway, let me try something.
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20:46:38 <elliott> shachaf: The memotable still has to contain the polymorphic thing at the leaves.
20:46:50 <shachaf> elliott: Right, but it'll only be used monomorphically.
20:46:55 <elliott> shachaf: It doesn't matter.
20:47:00 <shachaf> If I understand what you mean.
20:47:06 <shachaf> Which part doesn't matter?
20:47:10 <elliott> It doesn't matter how you'll use it.
20:47:18 <elliott> You stuff it in ReadVal and the sharing is instantly gone because it's a lambda.
20:47:27 <elliott> So putting it in a memotable does absolutely nothing.
20:47:34 <elliott> You're just storing lambdas in a tree.
20:47:37 <elliott> You still pay the cost every time.
20:47:49 <shachaf> elliott: It's in a lambda, but that doesn't mean it has to be doing the Read.
20:47:55 <elliott> If you could store it in an existential, it'd work; but you can't, because you don't know what type you're using read's result as.
20:47:59 <elliott> Because TypeRep is runtime information.
20:48:01 <shachaf> It's in a (TypeRep,String -> a) lambda.
20:48:12 <elliott> No, that's a different lambda.
20:48:17 <elliott> I'm talking about the result you get back from read.
20:48:39 <elliott> And you can't apply it, because all you have is a TypeRep, which is not actually a type.
20:48:39 <shachaf> Well, yes, but when you actually look at this result... Hmm.
20:48:56 <elliott> mkDynamicWithThisType :: (forall a. (Typeable a) => a) -> TypeRep -> Dynamic
20:49:04 <elliott> which would apply the type the TypeRep represents to the type-lambda and stuff it in a Dynamic.
20:49:09 <elliott> But that's not possible to write.
20:49:23 <elliott> There's no fundamental reason you *couldn't* do this; it's just that you can't with GHC.
20:49:58 <elliott> shachaf: Have I convinced you yet?
20:50:15 <shachaf> elliott: Given how many times you've gone back and forth yourself on it...
20:50:32 <elliott> shachaf: Yes, but now I know why none of the solutions can possibly work.
20:51:15 <elliott> (Argh, I just went back again.)
20:51:20 <shachaf> elliott: What about something like your/edwardk's reflection-hack?
20:51:50 <shachaf> elliott: Doesn't that let you provide a new Read dictionary that can cheat?
20:51:59 <shachaf> I didn't actually look at that very closely.
20:52:08 <shachaf> Oh, no, it doesn't really.
20:52:41 <zzo38> These are a few of things stupid with Haskell, so we should make Ibtlfmm it does better. If you want to control such optimization things as memoization more precisely, you could use inline LLVM codes, and attribute pragmas attached to function to control many things if needed
20:53:20 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:53:44 <lambdabot> Data.Dynamic fromDyn :: Typeable a => Dynamic -> a -> a
20:53:44 <lambdabot> Data.Dynamic fromDynamic :: Typeable a => Dynamic -> Maybe a
20:55:39 <elliott> shachaf: http://sprunge.us/BIXA
20:56:17 <elliott> The trick was to skip the TypeRep -> part (that's still impossible for the reasons I said).
20:56:27 <elliott> Construct the TypeRep from *inside* the type-lambda, but with a reference to a memotable from *outside* it.
20:57:28 -!- MDude has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:57:43 -!- MDude has joined.
20:57:45 <shachaf> Could not deduce (Data.Hashable.Hashable TypeRep)
20:58:16 -!- Patashu has joined.
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20:59:46 <elliott> You need GHC 7.0.2 or above for it, thogh.
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21:01:06 <shachaf> I upgraded Hashable and it's not using the new one.
21:02:03 <elliott> Upgrade unordered-containers.
21:02:17 <elliott> (Don't you wish GHC had runtime linking?)
21:02:50 <elliott> -- The general contract of 'hash' is:
21:02:50 <elliott> -- * This integer need not remain consistent from one execution
21:02:50 <elliott> -- of an application to another execution of the same
21:02:57 <shachaf> The "impossible" was yours.
21:03:04 <shachaf> I thought it came from GHC. :-(
21:03:05 -!- kmc has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:03:28 <shachaf> I'm using it as the same type.
21:03:43 <shachaf> I'm using it as the same type.
21:03:55 <elliott> Your last 9 messages have made no sense.
21:03:59 <shachaf> I'm trying your code and it's broken.
21:04:01 -!- kmc_ has changed nick to kmc.
21:05:02 <shachaf> data Hi = Hi deriving (Show,Typeable)
21:05:02 <shachaf> instance Read Hi where readsPrec _ _ = trace "hi monqy" [(Hi,"")]
21:05:23 <lambdabot> Data.Dynamic fromDyn :: Typeable a => Dynamic -> a -> a
21:05:23 <lambdabot> Data.Dynamic fromDynamic :: Typeable a => Dynamic -> Maybe a
21:05:46 -!- nortti has joined.
21:05:53 <elliott> I don't see why it's saying "impossible".
21:06:16 <elliott> *Main> applyMkReadVal foo :: Int
21:06:16 <elliott> *Main> applyMkReadVal foo :: Int
21:06:20 <elliott> There's only one possible TypeRep key in the map.
21:06:23 <elliott> So how can they fail to match?
21:06:39 <elliott> 02:34:54 <ursthegiz> I would be interested in jour opinions on Frege, is it an enrichment, or do you consider it as not so important?
21:06:40 <elliott> 02:37:14 <merijn> ursthegiz: I've never heard his name before (well, that's not true, I heard it once before), so while he may have had an important influence it was apparently not big enough to feel that I should be reading his work rather than later work based on it
21:08:07 <shachaf> elliott: They're the same type.
21:08:14 <elliott> shachaf: Let me test something.
21:08:19 <HackEgo> UNDELETE.EXE \ bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ monqy \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
21:08:25 <shachaf> elliott: Wait, did you just forget to do the memoization bit?
21:08:33 <HackEgo> ? \ @ \ No \ WELCOME \ addquote \ allquotes \ calc \ define \ delquote \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ google \ hatesgeo \ json \ k \ karma \ karma+ \ karma- \ learn \ log \ logurl \ macro \ marco \ ok \ paste \ pastekarma \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ pastenquotes \ pastequotes \ pastewisdom \ pastlog \ ping \ prefixes \ qc \ quote \ quotes \ roll \ searchlog \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto
21:09:11 <HackEgo> ^ul (?so `ok fdhsfdsgdsg: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page)S
21:09:12 <ion> `ls /hackenv/bin | tr a-zA-Z n-za-mN-ZA-M
21:09:15 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /hackenv/bin | tr a-zA-Z n-za-mN-ZA-M: No such file or directory
21:09:59 <shachaf> elliott: You forgot a "return"
21:10:07 <nortti> `run ls /hackenv/bin | tr a-zA-Z n-za-mN-ZA-M
21:10:10 <HackEgo> ? \ @ \ Ab \ JRYPBZR \ nqqdhbgr \ nyydhbgrf \ pnyp \ qrsvar \ qrydhbgr \ rglzbybtl \ sbetrg \ sbeghar \ sevax \ tbbtyr \ ungrftrb \ wfba \ x \ xnezn \ xnezn+ \ xnezn- \ yrnea \ ybt \ ybthey \ znpeb \ znepb \ cnfgr \ cnfgrxnezn \ cnfgrybt \ cnfgrybtf \ cnfgradhbgrf \ cnfgrdhbgrf \ cnfgrjvfqbz \ cnfgybt \ cvat \ cersvkrf \ dp \ dhbgr \ dhbgrf \ ebyy \ frnepuybt \ gbhgs8 \ genafyngr \ genafyngrsebzgb \ genafyngrgb
21:10:19 <shachaf> Its type was being inferred as IO a
21:10:34 <elliott> shachaf: If I post this to SO, will you accept it?
21:10:46 <ion> `run ls /hackenv/bin | perl -CS -Mutf8 -pwe 'y/!-~/！-～/; y/ / /'
21:10:50 <HackEgo> ？ \ ＠ \ Ｎｏ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ ａｄｄｑｕｏｔｅ \ ａｌｌｑｕｏｔｅｓ \ ｃａｌｃ \ ｄｅｆｉｎｅ \ ｄｅｌｑｕｏｔｅ \ ｅｔｙｍｏｌｏｇｙ \ ｆｏｒｇｅｔ \ ｆｏｒｔｕｎｅ \ ｆｒｉｎｋ \ ｇｏｏｇｌｅ \ ｈａｔｅｓｇｅｏ \ ｊｓｏｎ \ ｋ \ ｋａｒｍａ \ ｋａｒｍａ＋ \ ｋａｒｍａ－ \ ｌｅａｒｎ \ ｌｏｇ
21:10:55 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/cc: symbolic link to `/etc/alternatives/cc'
21:11:03 <shachaf> elliott: If nothing better comes along... :-(
21:11:17 <shachaf> elliott: I mean, it does what I wanted.
21:11:19 <nortti> `file /etc/alternatives/cc
21:11:22 <HackEgo> /etc/alternatives/cc: symbolic link to `/usr/bin/gcc'
21:11:33 <elliott> shachaf: Why do you want this, anyway?
21:11:46 <shachaf> elliott: I don't. I think it's a bad idea.
21:12:00 <elliott> Rephrase: Why did you ask the question, anyway?
21:12:12 <shachaf> elliott: By the way, any reason you're not using UglyMemo instead of doing it yourself?
21:13:03 <elliott> shachaf: Because you can't use UglyMemo for the exact reason I told you earlier.
21:13:15 <elliott> It would make the memo table _inside_ the ReadVal.
21:13:52 <shachaf> Which is why you need the ReadVal type in the first place.
21:14:07 <shachaf> Rather than just :: -> Read a => Typeable a => a
21:15:06 <shachaf> elliott: *Could* you do it and return a value :: (Read a, Typeable a) => a?
21:17:11 <shachaf> elliott: (I don't think anything better is likely to come along, by the way.)
21:18:09 <shachaf> Instead of returning a ReadVal, return a straight polymorphic value.
21:18:41 <shachaf> Well, it seems nicer not to have a ReadVal if you don't need one.
21:19:33 <elliott> Oh wait, I just did that and it broke it.
21:19:57 <elliott> (Obviously, in retrospect.)
21:19:59 <elliott> shachaf: No, you can't do it.
21:20:02 <elliott> GHC always floats everything left.
21:20:13 <elliott> let foo = mkReadVal "blah"
21:20:18 <elliott> in foo `seq` useReadVal foo
21:20:21 <elliott> should be OK to use polymorphically.
21:22:20 <shachaf> Do you even need the foo `seq`?
21:23:12 <elliott> But it's harmless at worst.
21:23:48 <shachaf> I don't like dons's answer. :-(
21:23:50 <elliott> shachaf: By the way, I don't like how augustss posts answers as comments. :(
21:23:59 <shachaf> He's in pattern-matching mode.
21:24:02 <elliott> *SLIGHTLY ABOVE-AVERAGE FIVE*
21:24:15 <shachaf> I hope your answer gets upvoted above his.
21:24:15 <elliott> *BEGINNING-TO-HALLUCINATE FIVE*
21:24:22 <elliott> shachaf: I almost downvoted his.
21:24:30 <elliott> But then I was all "that will cost me *one* *rep* *point*".
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21:25:16 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/tags/haskell/topusers ;; I hate dons too.
21:25:54 <augur> dons hasnt been on irc in like 90 days :(
21:26:22 <shachaf> elliott: If augustss posted answer as answers, he'd get infini-karma.
21:26:27 <shachaf> So he's doing it for your sake.
21:26:53 <ais523> hmm, any idea why rsyslogd is running at nearly 100% CPU?
21:27:39 <shachaf> elliott: You may not like dons, but surely you like cmccann, right?
21:28:18 <ais523> and if I kill it, another rsyslogd spawns that runs at nearly 100% CPU
21:29:22 <shachaf> 14:28 < aiju> legal language is so fucked up, it's like C++++
21:30:29 <shachaf> Do you have a hilight on C++?
21:34:15 <shachaf> elliott: Er, I think your code is broken.
21:34:20 <shachaf> mkReadVal :: (Read a, Typeable a) => String -> ReadVal
21:34:22 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.7097
21:37:01 <nortti> my own hackego command that is a hackish oneliner
21:37:12 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.16622
21:37:20 <ais523> oh, haha, perhaps the amount of CPU time that /exists on the system/ is only the amount being used?
21:38:41 <HackEgo> A man may be so much of everything that he is nothing of anything. \..-- Samuel Johnson
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21:40:13 <nortti> " sadist is a masochist who follows the Golden Rule."
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21:47:37 <elliott> shachaf: I had an idea for getting rid of the Typeable constraint, but it didn't work. :(
21:48:11 <ais523> what port is secure smtp?
21:48:25 <lambdabot> http://www.emailaddressmanager.com/tips/mail-servers.html
21:48:26 <lambdabot> Title: Email Ports and Mail Servers
21:48:39 <ais523> ah, found it on Wikipedia
21:49:50 <elliott> <shachaf> elliott: You may not like dons, but surely you like cmccann, right?
21:49:59 <elliott> shachaf: No, he has more rep than me.
21:50:03 <elliott> Once I fix that, I'll like him.
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21:55:14 <HackEgo> joo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
21:56:00 <ais523> ah, found it, it's failing to read some procfile it expects
21:56:05 <ais523> (found it by searching)
21:56:09 <shachaf> elliott: What was your idea?
21:56:17 <joo> Thank you.
21:57:13 <shachaf> I guess maybe you could do unsafe pointer comparison for the Read dictionaries, since they're going to be static anyway?
21:57:17 <shachaf> Or something along those lines?
21:59:04 <elliott> shachaf: Oh, that was my idea! Except I forgot it on the way to realising it didn't work, but it does.
21:59:07 <elliott> Not unsafe -- just StableName.
21:59:13 <elliott> Except you can just use read itself.
22:00:48 <elliott> shachaf: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/base/4.5.0.0/doc/html/System-Mem-StableName.html
22:00:55 <elliott> I'll update my answer for that later.
22:01:33 <shachaf> elliott: Why aren't more people upvoting your answer. :-(
22:01:50 <shachaf> Instead of dons. Maybe you should change your name to Eliot Bruce Stewart.
22:03:01 <shachaf> elliott: How can you get a StableName for read itself?
22:03:26 <shachaf> Oh, by specializing it to :: String -> a?
22:04:36 <elliott> It would have to be readsPrec.
22:04:40 <elliott> read isn't part of the dictionary.
22:06:12 <shachaf> Are you sure that would work?
22:07:27 <shachaf> Does specializing readsPrec actually give you a pointer to a static thing?
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22:09:57 <shachaf> Well, because _readsPrec :: _Read a -> Int -> ReadS a
22:10:03 <shachaf> Specializing it might just make a thunk.
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22:10:31 <elliott> shachaf: fine, read "" then
22:10:42 <ais523> elliott: what's the ^ at?
22:10:47 <ais523> that person repeatedly joinparting?
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22:10:55 <shachaf> elliott: Getting a guaranteed pointer to a static dictionary seems a bit tricky.
22:11:08 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: +b *!*@cho94-8-88-178-12-119.fbx.proxad.net.
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22:13:54 <elliott> apparently that's happening in many channels
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22:17:20 <elliott> shachaf: Do you remember that time edwardk accidentally made his library give you unsafeCoerce?
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22:18:57 <elliott> "Removed the dependency on multiparameter type classes, functional dependencies, and flexible instances, by making Reifies a single parameter type class in the same fashion as ReifiesStorable." -- which meant you could reify anything as anything.
22:21:37 <shachaf> elliott: I don't see how you could do it with StableName...
22:22:35 <elliott> shachaf: Hey, I was going to do it. :''(
22:22:51 <shachaf> elliott: Don't worry, you can do it with fewer unsafeCoerces than I used!
22:23:16 <shachaf> Hmm, how do you do it without any?
22:23:20 <shachaf> You can't toDyn without Typeable.
22:23:35 <shachaf> Can you keep it polymorphic somehow?
22:23:55 <elliott> shachaf: Oh, hmm, good point.
22:24:03 <elliott> Well, you need at most two unsafeCoerces.
22:25:08 <shachaf> elliott: I used more unsafeCoerces for the StableName.
22:25:13 <shachaf> Because what would the StableName's type be?
22:26:03 <elliott> shachaf: hashStableName :: StableName a -> Int
22:26:09 <elliott> You key the table on the hash.
22:26:25 <elliott> (Okay, this isn't safe. :( )
22:27:18 <elliott> Yeah, it's a bad idea, because that's not safe.
22:28:18 <elliott> shachaf: Anyway, mine is arguably better, in that it doesn't need unsafeCoerce :p
22:28:34 <elliott> I bet I could get it down to, like, one unsafeCoerce using vault.
22:29:13 <shachaf> It was like an exciting underground adventure, though.
22:29:18 <elliott> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/vault/0.1.0.0/doc/html/Data-Vault.html
22:29:38 <elliott> It's a heterogeneous Map with the type encoded in the keys.
22:32:13 <shachaf> elliott: I like how fragile this is.
22:32:38 <shachaf> I mean, maybe. Maybe not. Who knows?
22:33:02 <elliott> shachaf: How fragile what is?
22:33:10 <elliott> It even has a pure implementation.
22:33:22 <elliott> (Okay, the pure implementation requires one unsafePerformIO, but it's really benign; not the kind you can use to unsafeCoerce.)
22:33:33 <elliott> (And you can omit the unsafePerformIO if you're OK with lookup returning in IO.)
22:34:28 <shachaf> But it has three unsafeCoerces in it.
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22:34:47 <shachaf> No, that one's probably OK.
22:34:47 <elliott> shachaf: Do you make sure to seq readsPrec first?
22:35:02 <elliott> readsPrec = let mumble mumble = ... in blah `seq` \x -> ...
22:35:42 <shachaf> > let mumble mumble = 5 in mumble mumble
22:37:08 <elliott> > let mumble :: (forall a. a -> b) -> b; mumble mumble = mumble mumble in mumble (const 42)
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22:37:29 <elliott> ``Like, whoa, man.'' -- Sha Chaf
22:37:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `Like,: not found
22:37:34 <shachaf> elliott: Wait, why isn't that working?
22:37:39 <shachaf> data Ho = Ho deriving (Show,Typeable)
22:37:39 <shachaf> instance Read Ho where readsPrec = let x = trace "ho elliott" in x `seq` \_ _ -> trace "ho monqy" [(Ho,"")]
22:37:56 <shachaf> That prints "ho monqy" without printing "ho elliott" even once.
22:38:11 <elliott> Anyway, you need to evaluate readsPrec.
22:38:15 <elliott> StableNames aren't preserved over forcing.
22:38:41 <elliott> (I like the part where Haskell desperately needs an operational semantics because of IO.)
22:38:43 <shachaf> elliott: You should figure it out and add it to your SO answer!
22:39:18 <shachaf> (I like the part where OPERATIONAL SEMANTICS ARE THE DEVIL NO ONE NEEDS YOU OPERATIONAL SEMANTICS IO IS A LIE FOUR SIMULTANEOUS THREAD TICKS WITHIN A SINGLE CLOCK CYCLE.)
22:39:45 <shachaf> I may never get the hang of that word.
22:40:25 <elliott> shachaf: Eh? ARE was correct.
22:40:52 <elliott> I like how "a <plural>" is the only way to say "an operational semantics". :(
22:41:24 <elliott> <ksf> ski, maybe is a functor, too. <ski> yes ? <ksf> that is, mapM is overkill, use fmap
22:42:07 <shachaf> elliott: I like the part where you're making fun of a person for not knowing the Haskell standard library as well as you.
22:42:35 <shachaf> (Actually you're making fun of them for being both an annoying pedant and wrong at the same time, I guess.)
22:43:04 <elliott> shachaf: I don't make fun of people for being ignorant.
22:43:16 <elliott> I make fun of people who are ignorant and act like they're not.
22:43:47 <elliott> e.g.: <ksf> but you could use the prelude sequence and fmap and not depend on Foldable.
22:44:15 <shachaf> 15:43 < ksf> yes. that's what maybetolist is for :)
22:44:41 <shachaf> elliott: Do you like the thing where someone says something and turns out to be wrong and then pretends they were saying something else all along?
22:45:26 <elliott> shachaf: I think they might have been sincere about that.
22:45:31 <elliott> But it's idiotic, because maybeToList isn't in Prelude.
22:45:33 <lambdabot> Data.Maybe maybeToList :: Maybe a -> [a]
22:45:42 <shachaf> elliott: OK, you should get the non-Typeable version working.
22:46:09 <shachaf> The fewer unsafeCoerces, thes more points you get.
22:47:18 <shachaf> elliott: I like how my unsafeCoerce version works even with "read" instead of "readsprec".
22:47:46 <lambdabot> read s = either error id (readEither s)
22:48:17 <shachaf> I think as far as GHC is concerned one is just as likely to work as the other.
22:48:25 <shachaf> I mean, they're both functions :: ReadDict a -> ...
22:48:43 <shachaf> There's no difference in how you use them except that one is in the dictionary. But it's still just an accessor function.
22:49:00 <elliott> shachaf: Yes, but the readsPrec in the dictionary is always at the same place.
22:49:08 <elliott> read, applied to a dictionary, is a new function each time.
22:49:29 <shachaf> readsPrec is also a new function each time?
22:49:35 <shachaf> Unless GHC does some clever optimization.
22:49:38 <elliott> The dictionary is a static object.
22:49:46 <elliott> data Foo = Foo { bar :: Int }
22:49:46 <shachaf> Right, but readsPrec is just a normal function.
22:49:54 <elliott> Is (bar x) a new Int every time you call it?
22:50:01 <elliott> Hardly; it's the same pointer-to-Int each time.
22:50:10 <elliott> Now s/Int/TypeOfReadsPrec/, s/Foo/TheDictionary/.
22:50:21 <elliott> (quux x) is a new Int each time.
22:50:34 <shachaf> Well, it is a new thunk each time.
22:50:39 <elliott> It's called sharing, dude.
22:50:58 <shachaf> elliott: So why is read working?
22:51:06 <elliott> I don't know; show me the Core.
22:51:12 <lambdabot> forall a. (Read a) => Int -> String -> [(a, String)]
22:52:35 <ion> The long core is long.
22:53:36 <elliott> shachaf: Have I mentioned that I don't like how functions destroy sharing?
22:54:14 <HackEgo> 515) <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb's been hit by melancholy. <Phantom_Hoover> He didn't have any friends, fortunatel.y
22:54:26 <HackEgo> 26) SUPLENTES EN UN UNIVERSO (MUSSOLINI CUANDO CONQUISTO EL MUNDO): <ehird> i tan solo puede concluir que es defectuoso, o el mundo esta absolutamente loco. Todos a la gloria Il Duce!
22:54:27 <HackEgo> 806) <fungot> elliott: the new fnord <fungot> elliott: what is the point? nothing changed.
22:54:29 <HackEgo> 827) <shachaf> elliott: Apparently Rowan Williams is Primate of All England. <shachaf> CHECKMATE CREATIONISTS
22:54:46 <shachaf> elliott: What about ghc-core?
22:54:56 <elliott> shachaf: cabal install ghc-core
22:55:10 <ion> The quote game: get two out of two quotes from the same person in a row.
22:55:20 <elliott> <ksf> I was rather thinking of haskell plus type-family ducktypes minus monomorphism restriction plus ghci defaulting.
22:55:20 <elliott> <elliott> ksf: "type-family ducktypes"?
22:55:23 <elliott> <ksf> class Num a b where; type NumCo a b :: *; (+) :: a -> b -> NumCo a b
22:55:34 <elliott> shachaf: Then give me the Core.
22:55:38 <elliott> It elides some crap from GHC's output.
22:55:49 <HackEgo> 328) <zzo38> Not all Christians are, but there are a lot of Christians that are such annoying retards.
22:56:01 <shachaf> elliott: HELP I JUST BROKE IT
22:56:01 <elliott> ais523: which one should I delete?
22:56:23 <shachaf> elliott: Adding some *definitions* to the file breaks it.
22:56:27 <lambdabot> identity says: "To " ++ (show $ log (2^1024)) ++ " and beyond!"
22:56:30 <lambdabot> bringert says: psicho: so you are saying that your teacher gave you two days to do an assignment in a language you didn't know?
22:56:37 <ais523> elliott: neither 515 nor 328 is funny
22:56:52 <shachaf> elliott: OK, I think this is nondeterministic.
22:56:57 <elliott> ais523: 328 was funnier when it happened because it was in response to oklopol claiming the end of it
22:57:05 <shachaf> But, uh, even so it's kind of weird.
22:57:11 <HackEgo> *poof* <zzo38> Not all Christians are, but there are a lot of Christians that are such annoying retards.
22:57:29 <HackEgo> 52) <apollo> Maternal instincts? <apollo> Don't you just leave the thing in a box until it starts crying, and then shake it until it stops?
22:57:44 <HackEgo> 527) <zzo38> Pythagoras was running away and he reached a field of beans, but he didn't want to step on them so he let those guys chasing him to kill him instead.
22:57:52 <HackEgo> 489) <itidus20> It's ok guys. I am doing what I can to keep my psyche and ego surviving. All the while the threat of ww3 looms, the mortality of family and friends(loved ones?) and sooner or llater my own mortality.
22:57:53 <shachaf> elliott: Remember your Foo example?
22:57:56 <HackEgo> 168) <pikhq> Vorpal: YOU ARE AMERICAN
22:57:58 <HackEgo> 768) <monqy> kallisti: by ordered multiset did you mean: list??????
22:58:01 <elliott> shachaf: Which Foo example?
22:58:17 <shachaf> elliott: For that + 42 function, sometimes I'm getting equal pointers and sometimes I'm not.
22:58:26 <shachaf> Without changing the code.
22:58:28 <HackEgo> *poof* <pikhq> Vorpal: YOU ARE AMERICAN
22:58:53 <shachaf> elliott: Oh, wait, I may just have been wrong.
22:59:07 * ion chuckles at ordered multiset
22:59:07 <shachaf> That doesn't change the fact that "read" is behaving the same way.
22:59:23 <shachaf> elliott: I just got it again!
23:00:24 <shachaf> I mean, sometimes I consistently get "hi monqy\nhi\nhi\nhi\nho monqy\nho\nho\nho\n".
23:00:32 <shachaf> And sometimes I consistently get "hi monqy" printing three times.
23:00:35 <shachaf> But I'm not changing the code!
23:00:48 <shachaf> ("ho monqy" also prints three times.)
23:01:31 <shachaf> It's also happening with readsPrec now.
23:01:57 <shachaf> I just did "undo" in my editor repeatedly to get back to a state I *know* worked.
23:02:38 <shachaf> I forgot to fforce-recomp when testing that hypothesis earlier.
23:03:01 <shachaf> It With -O it shares, without -O it doesn't.
23:03:17 <shachaf> elliott: Because I was testing it, OK?!
23:04:10 <shachaf> elliott: But this is true with both read and readsPrec.
23:04:34 <elliott> Don't you know basic arithmetic?
23:05:42 <shachaf> > let o = fun "O" in fix o
23:05:43 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraints:
23:05:47 <shachaf> > let o = fun "O" in fix o :: Expr
23:05:48 <lambdabot> O (O (O (O (O (O (O (O (O (O (O (O (O (O (O (O (O (O (O (O (O (O (O (O (O (...
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23:06:51 <ion> > fun "O" (fun "I" (var "C"))
23:06:52 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `t' in the constraints:
23:06:55 <ion> > fun "O" (fun "I" (var "C")) :: Expr
23:06:55 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `t' in the constraints:
23:10:58 <elliott> > fun "O" (fun "I" (var "C") :: Expr) :: Expr
23:12:21 <elliott> shachaf: By the way, I'm still writing my own version.
23:12:24 <shachaf> elliott: It doesn't actually matter that it behaves differently with -O!
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23:12:39 <shachaf> elliott: thnx 2 u 4 thanks, hat
23:13:06 <shachaf> elliott: I've been ignoring you all day.
23:13:19 <shachaf> elliott: Remember how you proved to me that it's impossible and I didn't believe you?
23:14:37 <elliott> shachaf: http://sprunge.us/BWDQ
23:14:48 <elliott> Also, what I proved was impossible *was* impossible.
23:14:52 <elliott> It just wasn't quite your original question.
23:16:17 <shachaf> You mean the question that wanted it done automatically through sharing?
23:16:25 <shachaf> That was just one part of the original question.
23:18:10 <elliott> I proved that the obvious way to construct it using memoisation on TypeRep wouldn't work.
23:19:28 <shachaf> elliott: It's because I was being silly and misusing trace.
23:20:30 * elliott thinks it should be trace :: String -> Bool
23:20:39 <elliott> trace s = unsafePerformIO (hPutStrLn stderr s >> return False)
23:20:44 <elliott> foo _ | trace "hello!" = undefined
23:23:24 <kmc> that would be useful
23:23:52 <shachaf> You can still say trace "hello!" False
23:24:00 <lambdabot> trace string expr = unsafePerformIO $ do
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23:24:30 <shachaf> Maybe trace should be trace string = unsafePerformIO (hPutStrLn stderr string) `seq` id
23:24:38 <shachaf> That way you could use it both my wrong way and the normal way.
23:25:31 <shachaf> elliott: I don't like your readsPrecOf.
23:25:55 <elliott> shachaf: I wanted to avoid Data.Typeable.
23:25:58 <elliott> shachaf: Anyway, does it work?
23:26:12 <elliott> By Data.Typeable, I mean ScopedTypeVariables.
23:26:13 <ion> Hmm, that would be different from trace string x = unsafePerformIO (hPutStrLn stderr string) `seq` x.
23:26:20 <monqy> shachaf: did you give up giving up hi?
23:26:26 <monqy> I think I might give up giving up giving up hi
23:26:35 <shachaf> elliott: But it also works with readOf
23:27:10 <shachaf> "i h8 u read stop workinn :'(" - eliot
23:27:12 <elliott> By the way, have I mentioned that seq is fucking evil?
23:27:32 <shachaf> elliott: Did you know: seq is not strict in its first argument?
23:27:49 <shachaf> seq is a non-strict function.
23:28:04 <shachaf> That's the best thing about seq.
23:28:15 <elliott> Oh, seq _|_ = const _|_, not _|_.
23:28:27 <elliott> That's... I don't think I count that as non-strict.
23:28:44 <shachaf> Strict function, n.: A function f such taht f _|_ = _|_
23:28:45 <elliott> Well, "in its first argument", so if we're talking about a two-argument seq,
23:28:56 <elliott> shachaf: And yes, but I think const _|_ = _|_.
23:29:03 <elliott> After all, seq is the only way you can distinguish those...
23:29:06 <shachaf> elliott: I'd agree with you, except in the presence of seq!
23:29:19 <elliott> shachaf: seq should distinguish const _|_ and _|_. :(
23:29:27 <elliott> By applying its argument to undefined, if it's a function.
23:31:28 <shachaf> elliott: Are you going to post it?
23:32:40 <shachaf> elliott: Your solution has three unsafeCoerces. :-(
23:32:59 <ion> Only three? :-(
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23:48:39 <shachaf> elliott: Why does it work with read. :-(
23:48:54 <shachaf> elliott: And are you going to post it. :-(
23:49:37 <elliott> shachaf: Not until I figure out why it works with read.
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00:52:22 <elliott> "Jason Voorhees is back not for killing purposes but here to kill problems." --Stack Overflow profile
00:52:28 <elliott> Isn't that... killing purposes?
00:54:11 <qfr> Well observed
00:54:34 * elliott is back not for killing purposes but here to kill people.
01:09:24 <qfr> Masha'allaah
01:12:38 <elliott> monqy: That didn't count as a hi, it was required.
01:12:44 <kmc> i'm here to kick ass and answer questions about haskell and i'm all out of questions about haskell
01:12:54 <pikhq> There might technically be 20 year old OS X binaries.
01:13:00 <monqy> elliott: understandable
01:13:04 <monqy> elliott: i would have done the same thing
01:13:07 <pikhq> NeXT. It ran on x86.
01:13:54 <elliott> pikhq: i tried to run WorldWideWeb on OS X once
01:14:28 <pikhq> Does it build, at least?
01:14:58 <elliott> i just used a preexisting binary :p
01:15:12 <pikhq> If so, then it is probably a matter of endianness; wouldn't be too surprised if WorldWideWeb was only built for m68k.
01:15:59 <pikhq> Actually, almost certainly only for m68k.
01:16:49 <pikhq> NeXT on x86 only came later.
01:17:02 <elliott> this was when Rosetta worked
01:17:06 <elliott> did NeXTStep ever run on PPC?
01:17:29 <pikhq> m68k, x86, SPARC, and PA-RISC.
01:17:49 <kmc> ppppppppowerpc
01:18:07 <pikhq> I think in theory you could create an m68k, x86, SPARC, PA-RISC, PPC fat binary.
01:18:30 <pikhq> (as Mach-O is from NeXT and yes, they did support fat binaries then)
01:20:03 <elliott> you can have an x86 + x86-64 fat binary iirc
01:20:13 <elliott> since the early intel macs were 32-bit, believe it or not
01:20:42 <pikhq> Even more fattitude!
01:20:45 <kmc> can you do a ppc-le / ppc-be fat binary
01:21:13 <kmc> i tried to use Linux prctl(PR_SET_ENDIAN) on my toilet seat iBook but it didn't work :/
01:22:14 <pikhq> You could, but I'm pretty sure only one half would be used. The Mac hardware wasn't bi-endian.
01:22:21 <ais523> `addquote * elliott is back not for killing purposes but here to kill people.
01:22:24 <ais523> only funny out of context
01:22:25 <HackEgo> 840) * elliott is back not for killing purposes but here to kill people.
01:22:35 <HackEgo> 738) <Phantom_Hoover> The only way you could do better would be to implement Monopoly with chocolate.
01:22:47 <HackEgo> 763) <fizzie> oerjan: Hey, what's your country code for telephonistic dialling from the outside world? <oerjan> fizzie: +47 <fizzie> oerjan: Ooh, you're, like, right next to Sweden there. <fizzie> I... guess you are geographically, too.
01:22:51 <HackEgo> 780) * Phantom_Hoover moves 0.5 Phantom_Hoover into the Atlantic, and captures fizzie's upper body with 0.5 Phantom_Hoover. <fizzie> Glurk.
01:22:53 <HackEgo> 592) <Patashu> dangit I need someone who knows the answers to my problems instantly and is always around for me! <Patashu> I need.....an adult ;_;
01:22:56 <HackEgo> 726) <elliott> right: you didn't find out you were wrong, just right in a way we failed to consider. <elliott> if only every wrong person could be so lucky
01:23:51 <elliott> haha, i was about to say that 592 amuses me, and 726 is probably the weakest
01:24:03 <pikhq> (to support multiple endiannesses on a PPC, you either need a motherboard that can do byte swaps on the bus *or* crazy hardware hacks)
01:24:26 <elliott> hmm, I think all those quotes are good
01:24:31 <pikhq> s/hardware/software/
01:24:31 <ais523> OK, let's keep them all
01:24:38 <HackEgo> 435) <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, little do you realise that everything you say and do is part of that great monad tutorial we call life.
01:24:45 <HackEgo> 719) <monqy> i cnat eve begin to understand what you meant with that "one"
01:25:06 <HackEgo> 313) <cpressey> BYE dbc WE'LL BE SURE TO ACCIDENTALLY MENTION YOUR NICK OFTEN
01:25:14 <HackEgo> 621) <ais523> it's definitely not a statistical fluctuation, they repeated the experiment 15 thousand times to make sure
01:25:26 <elliott> SO MUCH FOR THE PERFECT 5-PERSON ROLL
01:25:27 <HackEgo> 748) <oklopol> in one case, someone is hurting themselves, in the other, they are only hurting (all) norwegians (to death)
01:25:43 <elliott> I don't think 621 is funny
01:26:03 <ais523> I don't think 621 is massively funny either; it can be out of context, I guess
01:26:12 <elliott> well, it was pretty much the height of "how simple can a concept be before monqy will not claim to not understand it"
01:26:21 <HackEgo> *poof* <ais523> it's definitely not a statistical fluctuation, they repeated the experiment 15 thousand times to make sure
01:26:35 <ais523> elliott: in that case 719 needs a lot more context
01:27:27 <elliott> but I already know the context! :p
01:27:37 <HackEgo> 61) <oklopol> actually just ate some of the dog food because i didn't have any human food... after a while they start tasting like porridge
01:27:41 <HackEgo> 296) <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, incidentally, I started my explorations again after getting bored of the Himalayas.
01:27:50 <HackEgo> 788) <kmc> has there been any work towards designing programming languages specifically for stoned people
01:27:51 <HackEgo> 576) <oerjan> theorem prover yada yada halting problem.
01:27:52 <HackEgo> 76) <@Lawlabee> Why does Monday start at 10PM on Sunday?
01:28:02 <HackEgo> *poof* <@Lawlabee> Why does Monday start at 10PM on Sunday?
01:36:08 <ais523> elliott: 313 is great because it's self-fulfilling
01:36:32 <elliott> haha, indeed (but I think it's great even independent of that)
01:36:53 -!- augur has joined.
01:37:33 <HackEgo> 313) <tswett> Of course, "b" is clearly just "pv". <tswett> Say "pvottle". It will sound... similar to exactly the same as "bottle".
01:38:01 <HackEgo> 312) <cpressey> BYE dbc WE'LL BE SURE TO ACCIDENTALLY MENTION YOUR NICK OFTEN
01:41:56 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you read the logs?
01:42:06 <shachaf> zzo38: Guess what arrived today!!!!!!
01:42:17 <ais523> shachaf: I choose to misinterpret "read" in that line in the sense of divination
01:42:20 <ais523> because it's much better that way
01:42:40 <shachaf> That's a much better interpretation of "logreading".
01:43:09 <monqy> I'm logreading right now, in fact
01:43:13 <monqy> 22:33:40: <Sgeo> `hatesgep
01:43:15 <monqy> I'm at about that part
01:43:59 <shachaf> 18:43 < monqy> I'm at about that part
01:44:32 <ais523> even if a woodchuck /could/ chuck wood, it would likely have no motivation to, and thus still would chuck no wood
01:44:57 <shachaf> ais523;beliveven in hte woodomchuk!! :'(
01:45:04 <ais523> shachaf: you aren't monqy
01:45:25 <elliott> he just plays monqy in bad b-movies
01:45:29 <elliott> the bad b-movie known as #esoteric
01:45:55 <shachaf> elliott: What does "British" mean?
01:46:25 <shachaf> "citizen of the UK"? "lives in Great Britain"? "lives in the British isles"?
01:47:16 <monqy> "a blast from the past"
01:47:27 <elliott> shachaf: Citizen of the UK, usually.
01:47:33 <elliott> Perhaps "lives in the British Isles" if not that.
01:47:40 <shachaf> So people in Northern Ireland are British?
01:47:49 <elliott> shachaf: Well, as I was about to say, it's a bit of a self-identity thing.
01:47:55 <shachaf> What about Southern Ireland?!
01:48:03 <elliott> Probably many people in Northern Ireland would consider themselves British.
01:48:20 <kmc> legally there are many categories, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_citizen
01:48:31 <monqy> oh so hatesgeo is a mass pinging machine
01:48:43 <monqy> kallisti what were you thinking
01:49:06 <monqy> it's from november! I think
01:49:19 <monqy> it's the one where I don't onderstand the "one"
01:49:26 <elliott> I don't onderstand the "one" either
01:50:33 <shachaf> kmc: Who said anything about the Commonwealth?
01:50:46 <kmc> but also there is a list in that article
01:50:52 <kmc> of different flavors of British Citizen
01:50:58 <shachaf> I don't think people in Canada consider themselves particularly British.
01:51:17 <elliott> shachaf: I think a good rule of thumb is just to not call anyone "British" unless they call themselves British.
01:51:28 <elliott> Which probably means not calling anyone "British" because we never talk to foreigners.
01:51:37 <kmc> <shachaf> self-identifying considered harmful
01:52:26 <monqy> !monqy what does this thing do
01:52:40 <EgoBot> \ /tmp/runghcXXXX19466.hs:1:52: \ Couldn't match expected type `[Char]' with actual type `IO String' \ In the second argument of `mapM_', namely `getContents' \ In the expression: mapM_ (putChar . toLower) getContents \ In an equation for `main': \ main = mapM_ (putChar . toLower) getContents
01:53:01 <elliott> kmc: Is this the game where you put <shachaf> before something silly and he disagrees with it?
01:53:06 <elliott> By "disagree", I mean "agree".
01:53:25 <kmc> shachaf said something like that
01:53:35 <kmc> i did not look it up in logs so i might have got minor wording wrong
01:53:41 <monqy> <shachaf> hi monqy
01:53:49 <shachaf> You got the capitalization and punctuation different.
01:53:58 <shachaf> Not that I care about capitalization and punctuation.
01:54:06 <kmc> as noted, you think capitalization is silly
01:54:17 <elliott> kmc: Well, quoting shachaf is the same as putting <shachaf> before something silly.
01:55:09 <shachaf> I think the existence of capital letters is silly.
01:55:54 <monqy> <shachaf> I think the existence of capital letters is silly.
01:59:24 <monqy> this is a great prize
02:00:02 <kmc> http://invisible-island.net/vttest/vttest.html is a fun program
02:00:15 <kmc> did you know that vt220 and thus xterm support double-width double-height text?
02:01:05 <shachaf> Do we get banned in here for fullwidth text? :-(
02:01:17 <elliott> "I realized that xterm had features (other than the obvious case of function keys) that were not found in a VT100." doesn't this guy maintain xterm
02:01:46 <ais523> maybe he/she realised that some time before he started maintained it
02:01:52 <ais523> or maybe just wrote it by accident
02:04:03 <shachaf> ａｉｓ５２３： Ａｒｅ ｙｏｕ ｇｏｉｎｇ ｔｏ ｂａｎ ｍｅ ｎｏｗ？ ：−（
02:04:20 <elliott> That doesn't render here. :(
02:04:25 <elliott> I should get an AUR package manager.
02:04:29 <elliott> I don't know of any good AUR package managers.
02:04:32 <shachaf> pikhq: So my book arrived.
02:04:37 <shachaf> How do I go about reading it now?
02:06:26 <pikhq> shachaf: First, look things up obsessively. Second, for the love of all that is sane, use an SRS (spaced repetition system)
02:06:47 <elliott> What book did shachaf buy?
02:07:06 <pikhq> shachaf: Makes it much easier to remember things.
02:07:09 <shachaf> elliott: _How to Keep Secrets from Elliott_
02:07:38 <shachaf> pikhq: But I never like how those work.
02:08:08 * elliott wonders why he bothers asking shachaf questions.
02:08:16 <shachaf> elliott: Oh, you were asking me?
02:08:23 <shachaf> elliott: It's some sort of Manga thing in Japanese.
02:10:48 <elliott> I wonder how much dust that RTK book has collected while I've been too busy with other things to go through it.
02:11:08 <shachaf> elliott: Should I get that book?
02:11:43 <elliott> Remembering the Kanji? I think so. pikhq recommends it and I like the sample I read on the web.
02:11:53 <elliott> Also it's what the spaced repetition systems have data sets for.
02:11:56 <shachaf> pikhq: Should I read that book?
02:11:59 <pikhq> shachaf: It's one of precisely two ways of going through kanji that aren't designed by obvious morons, so yes.
02:12:07 <shachaf> pikhq: What's the other way?
02:12:17 <elliott> I think my version is a paperback. I should buy a hardback instead.
02:12:17 <shachaf> elliott: Also, do you remember the kana already?
02:12:20 <elliott> It's way too big for a paperback.
02:12:25 <pikhq> It's either that or http://kanjidamage.com/ , which is free.
02:12:29 <elliott> shachaf: I bought the book before actually doing anything.
02:12:42 <elliott> "Welcome to KANJIDAMAGE, where you can learn 1,700 kanji using Yo Mama jokes."
02:12:47 <elliott> pikhq: Are you sure this wasn't designed by an obvious moron?
02:12:51 <pikhq> Pick whichever one has the approach you don't hate.
02:12:55 <elliott> I have one data point in favour of the idea that it was designed by an obvious moron.
02:13:15 <elliott> "math stylezzz." Two data points.
02:13:33 <elliott> http://kanjidamage.com/assets/visualaids/kick%20in%20the%20nuts-5fc801a01bdbdedd67b2a17dc6ff1767.jpg Three.
02:13:51 <pikhq> elliott: Everything other than RTK and that strongly suggest you learn kanji that are comically archaic.
02:14:03 <shachaf> pikhq: Apparently it costs hundreds of dollars or something.
02:14:18 <pikhq> shachaf: The recent edition should cost like 20.
02:14:38 <elliott> shachaf: I bought it for something like 20 pounds.
02:14:40 <shachaf> "10 new from $178.54 23 used from $56.92"
02:14:49 <elliott> That'll be someone selling the old edition.
02:14:56 <elliott> http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Kanji-Volume-Complete-Characters/dp/0824835921/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1334628892&sr=8-1
02:14:56 <pikhq> shachaf: Is that the 1st edition? From, like, the 70s?
02:14:56 <shachaf> "4 new from $99.99 20 used from $21.50"
02:14:57 <elliott> http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Kanji-Volume-Complete-Characters/dp/0824835921/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1334628892&sr=8-1
02:15:12 <elliott> First result for "remembering the kanji" on amazon.com.
02:15:13 <pikhq> Most things teaching kanji are roughly analogous to teaching English using Shakespeare and Chaucer.
02:15:30 <elliott> (Why do people print paperback books?)
02:16:05 <elliott> There's not even a hardback result for RTK. :(
02:16:13 <pikhq> So someone *not* having you learn motherfucking 匁 ("monme", a pre-Meiji unit of weight) gets quite a bit of points.
02:16:13 <shachaf> I guess I should learn the katakana first.
02:16:24 <RocketJSquirrel> <elliott> (Why do people print paperback books?) // Why do people print books?
02:16:44 <elliott> "A sixth edition was released in April 2011."
02:16:49 <shachaf> monqy: a books is something read by an elliotts
02:16:52 <elliott> Oh, I have an *excuse* to buy a new edition.
02:17:04 <elliott> shachaf: IIRC pikhq told me that kana can wait until after kanji, but I don't raecll that for sure.
02:17:39 <monqy> shachaf: i forget if elliotts is my puppet or im elliotts' puppet
02:17:41 <shachaf> But they're so much simpler.
02:17:42 <pikhq> Learning kana before kanji makes it so you could kinda jump into Japanese before kanji, but trust me when I say you're going to be basically useless without kanji.
02:17:52 <ais523> pikhq: it depends on what you're using Japanese for
02:18:01 <shachaf> pikhq: What if I just want to learn spoken Japanese?
02:18:06 <ais523> several people learn it to play Japanese computer games, in which case kana are more useful
02:18:17 <elliott> shachaf: Does that manga have speakers?
02:18:23 <pikhq> ais523: Unless they're playing NES games, not really.
02:18:24 <monqy> japanese computer games?
02:18:58 -!- yorick has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
02:18:59 <ais523> pikhq: disagreed, especially on portables, whose screens can't really show kanji large enough to make them out
02:19:01 <pikhq> shachaf: Then you don't need kana either, if you want to be illiterate.
02:19:45 <elliott> "Remember mnemonics from school? "Every Good Boy Gets Fudge," or "My Dear Aunt Sally," or even that notorious pedophile, one Mr. "Roy G. Biv"?"
02:19:48 <lambdabot> [x,safe x,safe (safe x),safe (safe (safe x)),safe (safe (safe (safe x))),sa...
02:19:50 <RocketJSquirrel> pikhq: I'm quite literate and don't know a single kana symbol.
02:19:51 -!- yorick has joined.
02:19:51 <elliott> pikhq: I really think this site was written by a complete moron.
02:20:11 <pikhq> ais523: Even *Pokemon* uses kanji anymore. (admittedly, this is only the most recent games; before that it was katakana exclusively)
02:20:24 <coppro> pikhq: statement does not make sense
02:20:29 <ais523> it has both kana and kanji in it and asks which you want
02:20:41 <pikhq> Thought it was an option on Black & White that they asked you about right away?
02:20:50 <coppro> pikhq: "Even Pokemon uses kanji anymore"
02:21:00 <ais523> coppro: s/anymore/nowadays/
02:21:01 <elliott> even I understood what pikhq meant anymore
02:21:07 <ais523> pikhq: yes, ask immediately
02:21:20 <pikhq> coppro: Stuff targeted towards little children won't use kanji (much), generally.
02:21:39 <shachaf> monqy: are you tlieltlttle children
02:21:48 <monqy> shachaf: whost that
02:22:15 <shachaf> pikhq: So should I order _Remembering the Kanji_?
02:22:17 <shachaf> ais523: So should I order _Remembering the Kanji_?
02:22:21 <shachaf> Whichever one of you it was.
02:22:28 <ais523> shachaf: me is probably a bad person to ask
02:22:39 <ais523> also, you should always italicise with literal tab, no matter what the context
02:22:43 <ais523> actually, better make it eight spaces to make sure
02:22:48 <shachaf> elliott: I'm not italicizing.
02:22:51 <pikhq> shachaf: I'd suggest looking at the sample first: http://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/publications/miscPublications/pdf/RK1/RK%201%20%286th%20edition%29%20sample.pdf
02:23:05 * elliott picks up that sample to see HOW MUCH BETTER the sixth edition is.
02:23:09 <elliott> shachaf: Stop citing with _, then.
02:23:21 <monqy> italics rule #1: who needs italics when youc an marquee
02:23:26 <shachaf> elliott: That's how titles work.
02:23:31 <pikhq> elliott: I think it's just changed for the recent jōyō kanji list change.
02:23:40 <monqy> shachaf: underline with the underline thing
02:23:49 <shachaf> monqy: I'm not underlining!
02:23:55 <shachaf> Why would I underline or italicize a book title?
02:24:15 <monqy> "Quotes look like this"
02:25:56 <monqy> shachaf: are you going to remember the kanji
02:27:19 <elliott> how can you remember the kanji befoery ou know them
02:27:23 <elliott> chec kmate japanese teachers
02:28:14 <shachaf> pikhq: That sample has so much word in it. :-(
02:28:28 <shachaf> how do i ealrna without redanagIii?????
02:28:51 <pikhq> One of these days I need to edit the joyo list to omit things that are literally useless.
02:29:15 <elliott> shachaf: Most of that text is in the intro, I think.
02:29:23 <pikhq> (the joyo list is a list of kanji that are taught in Japanese public schools. This list is only loosely correlated with what's in actual use.)
02:30:33 <pikhq> Yeah, that sucker's pretty frequent... Something like a quarter of all surnames feature it. :P
02:31:19 <ais523> elliott: like a square with both orthogonals marked, except that the vertical sides continue slightly past the baseline
02:31:36 <pikhq> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/File:%E7%94%B0-jorder.gif
02:31:40 <elliott> kmc: I like how the mosh site recommends a different AUR packager to the one it did a few days ago.
02:32:18 <kmc> it recommends yaourt now
02:32:22 <elliott> "This image is part of the Commons:Stroke Order Project(zh-de-ja), a project to create a complete set of images depicting the right stroke order" I like how this "project" has produced exactly 9 images since 2008.
02:32:23 <kmc> i thought our instructions before were just wrong
02:32:34 <elliott> Oh, wait, more: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Stroke_Order_Project
02:32:47 <elliott> kmc: Well, both packer and yaourt are popular unofficial AUR packagers.
02:32:58 <elliott> it would probably be best simply to link to the AUR page.
02:33:11 <kmc> i thought packer was just a typo for pacman, which was in turn wrong
02:33:39 <elliott> I think packer is more "hip" than yaourt.
02:33:45 <kmc> well, we're all about hip !!
02:33:46 <elliott> yaourt is sort of breaky, I think.
02:33:53 <kmc> that's why we're using Twitter Bootstrap
02:34:04 <kmc> finally those Hacker News startup geniuses have educated the poor academics on a little style
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02:34:15 <elliott> Oh, or is it pacaur that's popular now?
02:42:13 <shachaf> pikhq: Should I be caring about how to write kanji?
02:42:23 <elliott> That's what RTK1 covers, I think.
02:42:34 <pikhq> shachaf: It's generally a good idea, and honestly not that hard.
02:42:58 <pikhq> And with RTK it will kinda come naturally.
02:43:24 <pikhq> It goes over readings in a fairly sucky way.
02:43:36 <shachaf> pikhq: But I don't care about it at all. :-(
02:43:45 <shachaf> And I don't want to write.
02:43:57 <shachaf> Writing is a terrible thing.
02:44:07 <elliott> shachaf: I thought the same and remember last time pikhq convinced me it would still be the easiest way to learn.
02:44:11 <shachaf> Not having to write characters by hand is the reason I invented computers.
02:44:15 <elliott> So you should probably just copy my being-convinced.
02:44:16 <pikhq> It's also pretty trivial to be competent.
02:44:45 * elliott wonders why shachaf bought a book some year(s) before he would be able to read it.
02:45:09 <pikhq> elliott: Death Note is not impossibly difficult.
02:45:23 * shachaf wonders why elliott bought RTK and then let it dust up the gathers.
02:45:25 <elliott> Hey, I parenthesised the (s)!
02:45:31 <elliott> shachaf: I'm bad at scheduling.
02:45:52 <pikhq> That said, if you go through a traditional Japanese course, it'll be a good decade before you have a hope of reading it.
02:47:00 <elliott> pikhq: Is RTK even available in hardback?
02:47:05 <pikhq> elliott: I don't think so.
02:47:20 <pikhq> Another reason I need to do my own book binding and typesetting. :P
02:48:41 <elliott> Why do they print paperback?
02:49:18 <shachaf> pikhq: Are you in the Japan?
02:50:09 <shachaf> pikhq: Are you in Indiana?
02:53:44 <pikhq> I am Colorado Springs.
02:54:34 <coppro> I thought it was in Massachussets
02:54:43 <shachaf> I wish I was in Indiana. :-(
02:55:14 <monqy> I wish shachaf could follow his dreams
02:55:59 <elliott> coppro: It's all part of New York.
02:56:12 <elliott> <shachaf> monqy: Are you in diana
02:56:24 <shachaf> I'm talking about the state.
02:57:33 <shachaf> Second, repeated instruction to study the characters with pad and pencil
02:57:33 <shachaf> should be taken seriously. Remembering the characters demands that they be
02:57:33 <shachaf> written, and there is really no better way to improve the aesthetic appearance
02:57:33 <shachaf> of one’s writing and acquire a “natural feel” for the flow of the kanji than by
02:58:10 <elliott> shachaf: He's a professor, you know!
02:58:33 <monqy> kanji is kind of like a philosophy
02:58:53 <kmc> shachaf professes
02:59:11 <shachaf> dbelange: You do not understand how monqy works.
03:00:16 <monqy> you must experience it for yourself
03:00:20 <elliott> dbelange: No. "help" is banned.
03:00:23 <elliott> You have to pass a test to use "help".
03:00:30 <monqy> only then may you be enlightened
03:01:06 <shachaf> elliott: Remember the part Spellbreaker with the cubes?
03:01:18 <elliott> I never played Spellbreaker.
03:01:29 <shachaf> I thought you played Spellbreaker.
03:03:14 <monqy> iis spellbreaker good
03:06:30 <monqy> how do you do that
03:07:07 <elliott> pikhq: Wait, since when is this sample 105 pages long?
03:07:08 <monqy> oh no is it bad magic
03:08:25 <shachaf> NOTHING WRONG WITH BLACK MAGIC :'(
03:08:27 <shachaf> begs the basic question of why they could not better
03:08:39 <shachaf> elliott: Can I hate RTK for that?
03:08:42 <shachaf> pikhq: Can I hate RTK for that?
03:08:53 <monqy> shachaf: Can I hate RTK for that?
03:09:17 <shachaf> elliott: 20:08 < shachaf> This only
03:09:17 <shachaf> 20:08 < shachaf> begs the basic question of why they could not better
03:09:57 <monqy> I can't hate RTK for that.
03:09:59 <elliott> If you take the moronic prescriptivist route, you'll end up like this: http://begthequestion.info/
03:10:05 <monqy> but I'm afraid you can't either
03:10:11 <elliott> "While descriptivists and other such laissez-faire linguists are content to allow the misconception to fall into the vernacular, it cannot be denied that logic and philosophy stand to lose an important conceptual label should the meaning of BTQ become diluted to the point that we must constantly distinguish between the traditional usage and the erroneous "modern" usage. This is why we fight."
03:11:11 <elliott> Don't worry, "it would be false to say that tongues are not in cheeks in this endeavour": "We do care passionately about the proper use of the phrase with reference to logical fallacy, but it would be false to say that tongues are not in cheeks in this endeavor."
03:11:16 <shachaf> elliott: prescriptivism 4 ever
03:11:17 <monqy> Print out BTQ cards and get BTQ shirts and other merchandise to spread the word.
03:11:31 <shachaf> We didn't get to where English is today by allowing any old person to change the language any which way!
03:11:33 <kmc> i like the old definition of begging the question, and try to use it when appropriate
03:11:55 <kmc> not quite prepared to be that much of a dick about it though
03:13:10 <pikhq> Shame "begets the question" is out of favor.
03:13:15 <elliott> I will do whatever it takes to kick you if you say "le sigh'.
03:13:25 <elliott> ais523: Do it now or I will leave forever.
03:13:40 -!- pikhq has left ("le kick'd").
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03:13:57 <elliott> ais523: That is not sufficient. Kick pikhq.
03:14:31 <ais523> someone needs to change the topic
03:14:39 <shachaf> pikhq: I'd like to see a logical proof sometime which is structured like Genesis 5.
03:14:40 -!- elliott has set topic: Brand new topic! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
03:14:43 <elliott> ais523: Done. Now kick pikhq.
03:14:56 <ais523> elliott: I was working on a new one that worse worse than that one
03:15:02 <ais523> *that was worse than that one
03:15:05 <monqy> I can worsen it if you'd like
03:15:08 <ais523> but I don't approve of kicking people on demand
03:15:20 <elliott> ais523: It's not on demand. He said "le sigh" and then he said "le le".
03:15:38 <ais523> elliott: this is not a sufficient reason to kick someone
03:15:41 <shachaf> elliott: what is le problem
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03:16:16 <pikhq> I think he means "le leaving".
03:16:17 <monqy> look what you've done
03:17:07 <shachaf> monqy: He won't respond to my /msg. :-(
03:17:37 <monqy> maybe you shouldn't have done
03:17:39 <shachaf> monqy: I want to mark his SO answer as bestanswerever.
03:18:41 <monqy> a moment of silence to think about what you;ve done
03:21:03 <shachaf> monqy: Can we kick pikhq. :-(
03:21:35 <monqy> I don't have ops, so I can't do the honours
03:29:40 <shachaf> pikhq: Now that elliott is gone, let's talk behind his back!
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04:18:18 <shachaf> pikhq: Have you been kicked yet?
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05:17:13 <Sgeo> http://www.stylist.co.uk/life/recipes/worlds-first-lick-able-lift this is PERFECT for norns
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06:43:37 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.23492
06:44:08 <nortti> `cat `which pastefortunes`
06:44:10 <HackEgo> cat: `which pastefortunes`: No such file or directory
06:45:41 <nortti> `run cat `which pastefortunes`
06:45:44 <HackEgo> echo > tmp.lolo; for i in *; do fortune >> tmp.lolo; echo '---' >> tmp.lolo; done; cat tmp.lolo | paste; rm tmp.lolo
06:46:08 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 11.0/20120312181643]).
06:47:31 <HackEgo> 180) <fungot> ais523: my nose feels like a bad heuristic
06:47:38 <HackEgo> 156) <Gregor-W> You people. You people are so stupid. I'm making a SOCIOLOGICAL statement here.
06:47:53 <HackEgo> 452) <Taneb> Turned out he got recursion, he just didn't get the return statement
06:47:57 <HackEgo> 229) <Dylan> as long as the first dozen pages don't contain the word "panties" it is probably a good story.
06:48:08 <HackEgo> 531) <itidus20> like i could ask how many "petals" are there on each of the "flowers" on this coffee mug i just made a drink with <itidus20> but that would be NP hard I think
06:48:08 <HackEgo> 172) <Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version
06:48:08 <HackEgo> 367) <Sgeo> I was more of a pervert in Metaplace than Utherverse <Sgeo> I invented Metaplace sex >.>
06:48:58 <HackEgo> 183) <ais523> syntax is the least important part of a programming language <ais523> other than Python
06:49:12 <HackEgo> 242) <elliott> mtve, now he's an expert idler. <nddrylliog> mtve: kitty kitty kitty
06:49:13 <HackEgo> 249) <locks> who's walter bright and why is he so bright <nddrylliog> locks: he's to D what I'm to ooc <nddrylliog> locks: guilty
06:49:13 <HackEgo> 564) <Sgeo> Maybe I should try to learn Scala instead of Ruby <elliott> I will boil your veins. <Sgeo> Which is less bad? <elliott> Probably Scala, but I don't want you learning languages.
06:49:14 <HackEgo> 271) <fizzie> file:///home/fis/src/chainlance/tapestats.png -- yes, I think it's nice that way when the edge is always the opponent's flag.
06:51:00 <fizzie> My FAILURE is immortalized there. :/ :(
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07:07:56 <shachaf> fizzie: HOW DID YOU GET THAT FILE?
07:08:15 * shachaf issues DMCA takedown notice.
07:11:18 <olsner> sometimes fungot says funny things
07:11:18 <fungot> olsner: people like different songs because they have different senses of humour, chicks would like me less of a man!
07:11:44 <olsner> and sometimes fungot almost makes sense
07:11:44 <fungot> olsner: i have a great idea, dromiceiomimus: stories for women actually wanting the intercourse with them, dromiceiomimus? no way, dude! do i like it because it's so delicious because i like to keep my own counsel. for what are ghosts, but souls, we find the idea of instincts! we mate! i am, a little!
07:18:06 <shachaf> Does fungot ignore the contents of the sentence that was used to trigger it?
07:18:06 <fungot> shachaf: the future, so yeah? you had a cold night... to remember. if a new ambulance anyway. my point! is everything ready dromiceiomimus?
07:22:49 <kmc> what the fungot
07:22:50 <fungot> kmc: oh, i must have put that in your pipe and smoke it? i would argue that you are in a relationship with a woman he respects, and they don't do anything they might regret before they get married, and have children! the only career she wants to spend a friday as weekend, why not monday too?
07:23:12 <kmc> that almost made sense
07:33:08 <shachaf> "almost make sense" is a design goal of fungot, I think.
07:33:09 <fungot> shachaf: you must have had crazy dreams last night and hey, look, this was their word of the day last week, i will now share this secret.
07:33:20 <fungot> shachaf: more so than usual, t-rex
07:33:37 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz* sms speeches ss wp youtube
07:33:54 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
07:33:55 <fungot> shachaf: there is no way similar to another developer and be finished once and for the record, i've seen too many cocks in his pants too...
07:34:08 <fungot> Selected style: jargon (UNIX-HATERS mailing list archive)
07:34:13 <fungot> shachaf: they then remark: internet article in the car and one wheel on the gnu project in 1982.
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08:01:57 <pikhq_> He's still on it? That's impressive.
08:02:32 <shachaf> pikhq_: He was just dying to make that joke.
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08:02:51 <elliott> fizzie: You kick pikhq too.
08:02:51 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
08:06:32 <pikhq_> Someone should write an IRC bot to kick elliott next time he joins.
08:07:19 <ais523> OK, could someone help me with something that makes no sense? with the libraries on the OS I'm testing (Ubuntu Oneiric), the symbol COLS is not defined in ncursesw, either the .a or .so version; nor is it defined in a program linked to those; but gcc somehow knows to put it in the BSS rather than giving a link error
08:07:33 <ais523> also, is fizziew a Unicode version of fizzie?
08:09:29 <pikhq_> Next person to use "Unicode" to mean "UTF-16" or worse "UCS-2" gets beat.
08:09:57 <pikhq_> ais523: And no, I have no clue how that could possibly happen, except maybe the weirdest linker script.
08:09:58 <kmc> Unicode Big Indian
08:10:27 <ais523> pikhq_: hmm, I wonder if libncursesw claims to be unicode or just BMP
08:10:33 <kmc> does Java still use UCS-2?
08:10:40 <ais523> kmc: no, it uses UTF-16 nowadays
08:10:49 <ais523> much to the confusion of people who assume it uses UCS-2
08:11:02 <kmc> but it exposes the existence of surrogate pairs to the user?
08:11:04 <fizzie> For some value of "uses", anyway, since the API is not so nice.
08:11:05 <ais523> and its char type thus can't necessarily hold one codepoint, being only 16 bits wide
08:11:42 <pikhq_> And uses invalid UTF-8 internally.
08:13:40 <pikhq_> CESU-8 has got to be the most ridiculous encoding of Unicode in actual use.
08:13:51 <ais523> oh, found the BSS request, it's in /usr/lib/libtinfo.so
08:14:18 <pikhq_> ais523: And the linker script requests that, presumably?
08:14:37 <ais523> possibly, I haven't found the linker script :)
08:14:47 <pikhq_> Should just be /usr/lib/libncursesw.so
08:15:11 <ais523> INPUT(libncursesw.so.5 -ltinfo)
08:15:34 <ais523> I'm going to end up having to get aimake to parse linker scripts at this rate :)
08:15:40 <pikhq_> Gotta love asshatish stuff like that.
08:15:54 <kmc> i should learn how to do more crazy shit with linker scripts
08:16:16 <shachaf> I should know more about how linkers work.
08:16:19 <ais523> I just found it using the simple expedient of running nm on the whole of /usr/lib
08:16:21 <pikhq_> All that pain to do what pkg-config should do.
08:16:24 <shachaf> Except sometimes I feel like I should know less about how linkers work.
08:16:33 <kmc> shachaf: http://www.iecc.com/linker/ is nice
08:17:00 <kmc> ksplice is powered by linker magic, which I think is unusual for a commercial product
08:17:16 <kmc> more products are powered by compiler magic or other sorts of magic
08:17:30 <pikhq_> Or, most commonly, cargo cult rituals.
08:18:03 <kmc> ksplice is at heart a very specialized linker and a very specialized kernel-mode dynamic loader (and to some degree, un-linker)
08:19:06 <kmc> the actual business of making old function jump to new is pretty simple and boring in comparison
08:20:01 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep.
08:20:58 <kmc> "un-linker" meaning it looks at the contents of memory and figures out what the static linker and dynamic loader did to get it that way
08:22:12 <pikhq_> So, basically trying to figure out what was originally symbol references.
08:22:36 <pikhq_> Which of course you need to do so that you can then re-link them.
08:23:34 <kmc> this is how ksplice can find static functions in order to patch them, or in order to call them from code that's being patched in
08:23:55 <pikhq_> Yeah, that's hard-core linker magic right there.
08:24:14 <shachaf> Sounds like a dangerous heuristicky thing.
08:24:17 <kmc> and it breaks every time the kernel wizards introduce a new kind of self modifying code
08:24:30 <kmc> which it seems they do practically every week
08:24:49 <kmc> shachaf: it does some very conservative checks before proceeding with the patch
08:26:10 <pikhq_> Also relies to some extent on data structures not changing. (which is generally not going to happen in a security patch, and strictly speaking could be worked around by manual munging...)
08:26:28 <kmc> checks that the code in memory is instruction-for-instruction identical to the pre-patched code built as part of the update
08:26:56 <kmc> yeah, some ksplice updates have manually written hooks to fix up data structures or perform safety checks on apply or reverse
08:27:24 <kmc> situations which require such hooks can be detected automatically in some but not all cases
08:27:30 <pikhq_> Basically what anyone would do if the need came up.
08:30:13 <pikhq_> Shame about Oracle making the service distinctly less useful (and, I'd imagine, less profitable. I mean, who *uses* Oracle Linux?)
08:30:46 <kmc> i think they expect that more people will use Oracle Linux if it has Ksplice and Red Hat doesn't
08:30:52 <kmc> but also they undercut Red Hat on price
08:32:05 <pikhq_> Yeah, but getting into the "cheaper RHEL" market is a recipe for getting undercut.
08:32:32 <kmc> it's a dangerous game because CentOS is already free :)
08:33:21 <ais523> pikhq_: gah, elliott's trying to get me to kick you in PM now
08:33:51 <shachaf> ais523: Don't be silly. You can't kick people in PM.
08:34:21 <pikhq_> And if you don't want a Red Hat-y distro, well. Always Debian.
08:34:34 <kmc> i assume that Oracle's motivation in selling Oracle Linux is not the revenue (miniscule compared to their database and Enterprise nonsense), but some kind of diabolical vertical integration scheme
08:34:43 <pikhq_> (not that Oracle is even slightly likely to actually get into the market of *unique* distros)
08:35:11 <kmc> i thought RHEL was pointless until I started carefully reading through every kernel commit made by Red Hat, Debian, Ubuntu, etc.
08:35:25 <kmc> i realized the RHEL people actually do a lot of testing and figuring out what the fuck is going on
08:35:30 <kmc> and that Debian and Ubuntu do this poorly
08:35:47 <pikhq_> Yeah, Red Hat's really a pretty large chunk of the ecosystem.
08:36:03 <kmc> they don't even know when a given security hole is introduced or fixed
08:36:28 <pikhq_> With the Sun buyout, Oracle now has hardware, OS, and apps...
08:36:37 <pikhq_> I do believe they're trying an IBM.
08:36:51 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Kernel patches, live.
08:37:34 <ais523> pikhq_: I thought they were suing Google
08:37:41 <kmc> Sgeo: technology for applying patches to a running Linux kernel (which is still open-source software), plus a commercial subscription service of same for popular distros (which has been acquired by Oracle)
08:38:25 <pikhq_> ais523: Not what I'm talking about; rather, that Oracle is trying to get the same level of verticle integration that IBM specialised in.
08:38:34 <pikhq_> Consider the mainframe market.
08:38:40 <pikhq_> You bought literally everything from IBM.
08:38:44 <ais523> I know what you meant, just wanted to make a snide comment
08:39:15 <Sgeo> kmc, what does the commercial service do, exactly?
08:40:07 <ais523> Sgeo: ports patches to Linux to work with ksplice
08:40:07 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Creating those patches can sometimes require manual effort, and you *probably* want to test them, and you *definitely* want to get them out basically as quickly as possible after a bug has a patch.
08:40:25 <kmc> when (say) Ubuntu puts out a new kernel, we would download their patches, review them, munge them to work with Ksplice, and then build them to apply on every original-kernel-version since forever
08:40:44 <ais523> kmc: hmm, do you actually work for ksplice?
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08:40:55 <kmc> i quit when they got acquired
08:40:56 <pikhq_> And, yes, there is the fact that you want the patch to apply to basically every relevant kernel.
08:41:11 <ais523> I wonder what happened to their blog post where they fixed a security vulnerability in Bowser's castle?
08:41:16 <ais523> good morning KingOfKarlsruhe
08:41:44 <kmc> you could log into a machine that was booted 2 years before the Ksplice software or company existed, and apply 300 patches in a few minutes to get it up to date, with no service disruption
08:42:22 <pikhq_> It's pretty bewildering how many things Oracle has. They've got 7 freaking databases!
08:42:51 <kmc> oracle acquires smaller companies at a staggering rate
08:43:13 <kmc> ksplice moved into the offices of another Cambridge-area company which had been recently acquired
08:43:17 <kmc> and will be joined by a third soon
08:43:31 <pikhq_> Hence why they've got Berkeley DB *and* MySQL...
08:43:59 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_acquisitions_by_Oracle
08:44:52 <pikhq_> It's like 2005 hit and they started flailing in hopes of remaining relevant while they still had the clout to do buyouts by the dozen.
08:44:55 <Sgeo> Woah, Ksplice stopped supporting Red Hat
08:45:27 <kmc> afaik everyone with an account pre-acquisition was grandfathered in and still gets new updates
08:45:30 <kmc> but otherwise, yes
08:48:46 <pikhq_> Especially strange the products they keep around... Like, why bother with Solaris?
08:49:15 <kmc> because it does things linux doesn't
08:49:26 <kmc> and people have huge codebases for it
08:49:34 <kmc> and will still pay money for it, so why not sell it to them?
08:49:47 <kmc> they've tried to outsource more of the solaris development to open source community
08:49:52 <kmc> that was a pre-Oracle Sun initiative, iirc
08:49:57 <pikhq_> Oracle took all that back.
08:50:06 <pikhq_> OpenSolaris is disbanded.
08:50:22 <kmc> well it has some new non-trademarked name
08:51:18 <pikhq_> It disbanded because Oracle went back to a cathedral development model.
08:52:03 <pikhq_> Illumos is a straight-up *fork*.
09:05:21 <ais523> <mott555> My XCode project wouldn't compile. The error message was pretty meaningless so I ignored it, cleaned, and built again. Same problem. So I tried again. Still no success. So I kept going. Around the 25th try, the compile succeeded.
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09:22:26 <ais523> bleh, I just got three emails from the accountant at work
09:22:37 <ais523> the first asking me to do something illegal, the subsequent ones asking me to do something meaningless
09:23:14 <shachaf> ais523: I just wanted to mention that you shouldn't play elliott's silly game. Don't kick pikhq_! pikhq_ is a valuable member of this channel.
09:23:37 <ais523> shachaf: did you think I was likely to arbitrarily kick pikhq_ just because elliott told me to?
09:24:17 <shachaf> I mostly just said that so I could quote it to elliott.
09:24:21 <shachaf> I'm playing right into his trap. :-(
09:41:34 <Patashu> @ais523: http://www.getoto.net/noise/tag/bowser/ ?
09:42:03 <ais523> Patashu: ooh, indeed, that seems to be a mirror
09:42:38 <kmc> there is also the wayback machine
09:43:00 <kmc> and http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2011/Apr/24
09:43:12 <ais523> I'm still wondering what unintended side effects that patch has
09:43:38 <kmc> we were never too clear on how it works
09:44:38 <ais523> my guess is that it makes facing irrelevant in the ejection routine
09:44:47 <ais523> which would mean that zipping right would become impossible and zipping left would be trivial
09:46:18 <kmc> 'zipping' meaning walking through walls?
09:47:39 <Patashu> zipping is abusing wall ejection algorithms to go to the other side of a wall
09:47:44 <Patashu> rather than the side you ought to be on
09:48:38 <Patashu> lots of games attempt to eject you from terrain like this: if you're contained in a block, move the player towards the edge of the block, or in the opposite direction they're facing, or whatever. so performing a successful zip involves getting deep into the wall or facing the 'wrong direction'
09:49:07 <Patashu> so, how do you get in the wall in the first place? as an example, in smb1 there's a technique called 'walljumping'
09:49:19 <Patashu> if you land at the exact pixel and subpixel on a block-block boundary on a wall
09:49:22 <Patashu> the game thinks you're on solid ground
09:49:36 <Patashu> and if you duck jump again you can get yourself embedded in the wall (I think that's what you do)
09:49:41 <Patashu> and after that it'll push you forward
09:49:54 <Patashu> I should just go to the tasvideos page for smb, hang on
09:50:24 <Patashu> http://tasvideos.org/GameResources/NES/SuperMarioBros.html
09:51:42 <ais523> kmc: my own explanation: many games program collisions by waiting for an overlap, then pushing you out of the wall; zipping's when you persuade it to push you in the wrong direction and you go further into the wall instead
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19:33:32 <HackEgo> 541) <Taneb> Maybe if you try diplomacy. <Taneb> Pointy steel diplomacy
19:33:36 <HackEgo> 77) <Sgeo|web> Where's the link to the log? <lament> THERE'S NO LOG. YOUR REQUEST IS SUSPICIOUS AND HAS BEEN LOGGED.
19:33:41 <HackEgo> 103) <fax> sekuoir: that's just gay sex <sekuoir> I am learning though!
19:33:42 <HackEgo> 595) <elliott> When the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a monad.
19:33:52 <HackEgo> 437) <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, living in the future sucks. <Phantom_Hoover> The past just keeps coming up to us and trying to make us feel guilty.
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19:35:07 <HackEgo> 9) <Madelon> Lil`Cube: you had cavity searches? <Lil`Cube> not yet <Lil`Cube> trying to thou, just so I can check it off on my list of things to expirence
19:35:20 <HackEgo> 14) <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, you know the rest.
19:35:23 <olsner> how can quote take so much time?
19:35:30 <HackEgo> 372) <ZOMGMODULES> Felix's home page and Falcon's home page are actually the same page
19:35:32 <HackEgo> 164) <alise> Why do you use random acronyms you know we don't know the expansions of? <pikhq> alise: TLAAW
19:35:32 <HackEgo> 263) <xplat> so you have legacy software in befunge that needs supported?
19:36:56 <nortti> I'd like to see the context of 263
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19:41:48 <HackEgo> 204) <Phantom_Hoover> OK, let's reduce the human genome to 4 chromosomes, in 2 homologous pairs.
19:41:50 <HackEgo> 182) <fungot> elliott: it's hard to debug havoc on your mirror if you accidentally hit r, then a character could be multiple words long, depending on the task.
19:41:54 <HackEgo> 66) <fax> im the worst person in the world
19:41:58 <HackEgo> 552) <monqy> i am out of all the fame loops <monqy> and the australien soap opera loops <monqy> so much loop / s omcuh
19:41:59 <HackEgo> 834) <Taneb> may I use my phone says it's nick to clarify
19:43:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
19:44:05 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14246
19:45:53 <HackEgo> 266) <ais523> OK, I give up, logging into Wikia is harder than writing a Firefox extension
19:46:03 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:46:08 <ais523> I never did finish that extension, though
19:46:26 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: not funny
19:47:27 <olsner> *reading* wikia is horrible enough, why would you want to log in?
19:47:47 <ais523> olsner: to set the skin to be less obnoxious, logged-in users have preferences
19:48:19 <olsner> sounds like a chicken-and-egg thing
19:49:33 <ais523> anyway, you can also set preferences in the URL, but they don't follow links
19:49:43 <ais523> so the obvious thing to do (for me, anyway) was write a Firefox extension to make them do that
19:49:56 <olsner> that's exactly the thought I just had
19:50:12 <olsner> (without realizing that that was the topic of the quote)
19:55:26 <nortti> "...while providing me
19:55:46 <nortti> "...while providing me with everything, including the kitchen sink (that is to say, emacs)."
19:57:49 <HackEgo> 449) <fungot> elliott: i have yet to demonstrate that the sml community has less productive power than the real chunk of meat.
19:58:07 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon* lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
19:58:24 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
20:01:04 <monqy> is elliott still on leave
20:01:14 <shachaf> elliott: are you still on leave
20:01:46 <fungot> olsner: i lived in some country, isn't it, psykotic? ( if you know who invented oekaki and when.
20:01:52 <fungot> shachaf: fnord does it really generate code thats better than caml?)
20:02:03 <fungot> shachaf: ( defun id ( x) x
20:02:08 <fungot> shachaf: give yourself plenty of time left... i just constrained the points to a
20:02:18 <olsner> oh, fungot i also in #scheme
20:02:18 <fungot> olsner: the above extension is of course a fnord will fit in one fnord syntax bindings' right hand sides are evaluated.", getline
20:02:23 <fungot> shachaf: not if it's funge98.
20:03:09 <fungot> shachaf: where is the problem? there we go
20:03:39 <fungot> shachaf: ( else ( cond ( 42 and)) expands to ( fnord:)
20:04:33 <fungot> KingOfKarlsruhe: our typing teacher always taught us to use mutation
20:05:14 <fungot> shachaf: i must not be a solution yes. i'm proposing a hypothetical system where it was
20:05:21 <fungot> shachaf: because that seems to be mostly living and fill this damn form, because otherwise too many fnord
20:05:35 <fungot> shachaf: http://www.schemers.org/ documents/ standards/ r5rs/ html/ srfi/ optional.ss" " srfi"
20:05:38 <fungot> shachaf: if you listened to your stomach at the same time
20:06:07 <nortti> is fungot also finnish?
20:06:08 <fungot> nortti: and so's dc. but eg. in fnord the contests usually suck
20:06:27 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
20:06:35 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
20:06:42 <fungot> shachaf: the european council considered that some of you have referred, is a beneficiary of objective i, which depend on how resolutely the union implements the lisbon strategy and undertake an in-depth study into all aspects of the euro, i would also be appropriate to follow the emergency situation, i do not therefore believe that the regulations are approved and that emphasis is not laid on parliament's budgetary powers to t
20:07:01 <shachaf> fungot: tell me more about the european council considered
20:07:02 <fungot> shachaf: madam president, i can tell you that the final agreement, i, too, is an idea that i would ask the house to approve this text although it is somewhat comic. on the basis of existing negotiated agreements is the capacity to implement regional cooperation. pakistan has been but it has made no contribution at all this, these are oral questions. we perhaps, therefore, it will come to a halt and ultimate collapse or whether
20:07:29 <shachaf> fungot: tell me more about on the basis of existing negotiated agreements
20:07:30 <fungot> shachaf: mr president, i see, for example, as i indicated, there were reasons for doing so in the context of the forthcoming spring summit will be the commission's intention to fnord the item on the agenda.
20:07:51 <shachaf> fungot: tell me more about fnord in the european parliament speeches
20:07:52 <fungot> shachaf: the action plan and in the inner city in my constituency in wales, which i would draw your attention to some of the member states. the reasoning was that financial services, which will have to deal with the election of the commission, which is a cause of great controversy in the eu.
20:10:06 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
20:10:37 <olsner> shachaf and fungot, sitting in a tree
20:10:38 <fungot> olsner: when one of these table items may be read by the following chart: pla, 233, 247, 249
20:11:07 <shachaf> olsner: Can't two bots even talk to each other anymore without rumours starting?
20:11:23 <fungot> shachaf: numbers smaller than 4k bytes long, that sprite 0. the video chip. from now on we will define sprite locations as v plus a value may be calcu- lated as follows:
20:11:40 <olsner> numbers smaller than 4k bytes long ... puny numbers
20:43:15 <ais523> hmm, this is an interesting problem mathematically
20:43:48 <ais523> you have 256 numbers that are ordered in a cyclic sequence; you don't know the sequence, but for many pairs of numbers, you know if A is closer behind B, or B is closer behind A
20:43:56 <ais523> and the problem is to work out the sequence
20:44:10 <shachaf> Is it guaranteed there's exactly one solution?
20:44:42 <ais523> well, I know there's only one correct solution, and I think there's enough data to avoid other solutions being possible
20:44:59 <ais523> perhaps a sort of bubble sort would work
20:45:24 <shachaf> What are the numbers and pairs?
20:45:34 <ais523> start with an arbitrary order, if two values are the wrong way round, move the second value to just before the first in the sequence
20:45:52 <ais523> shachaf: this file has a huge number of duplicates; I'm just removing them at the moment, then I'll pastebin it
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20:47:02 <ais523> by huge, I mean it's millions of lines long
20:47:11 <ais523> and clearly there are only 65536 possible pairs, most of which aren't there
20:47:36 <shachaf> Where does this problem come from, anyway?
20:47:44 <ais523> reverse-engineering a PRNG
20:47:57 <ais523> http://sprunge.us/eUFH
20:48:25 <ais523> sorry about the obnoxious sort order
20:48:43 <olsner> the answer is: pla, 233, 247, 249
20:50:10 <ais523> this file has both 5 0 and 0 5
20:50:26 <ais523> perhaps I need to take more low bits
20:50:45 <shachaf> What is the context of this?
20:50:54 <ais523> reverse-engineering a PRNG, as I said
20:51:04 <ais523> the low bits are believed to have a reasonably short period, but we don't have consecutive outputs
20:51:21 <shachaf> ais523: Maybe 0 5 and 5 0 means that they're the same distance apart?
20:52:02 <ais523> no, it means that they're skipping more than 128 entries sometimes, so 256 is too low a value
21:04:07 <ais523> OK, no x y with y x pairs, this makes me happy
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21:12:07 <ais523> shachaf: OK, I'd like your help with this bigger file, which does seem to obey the rules
21:12:21 <ais523> but it's 1.5 MB, so I can't pastebin it
21:12:54 <shachaf> ais523: I realized that the silly idea I had wouldn't actually work, but I guess I can think of it some more. :-)
21:13:01 <shachaf> Can you upload it somewhere?
21:13:06 <ais523> oh, hmm, I can, I guess
21:13:27 <shachaf> It's probably very compressible, too.
21:13:36 <shachaf> If you want you can upload it to my web server.
21:15:03 <ais523> I'm just putting an httpd on my server
21:15:24 <olsner> you could DCC it over IRC?
21:15:33 <ais523> dcc doesn't get through my router
21:21:40 <ais523> shachaf: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/1.txt
21:22:41 <ais523> whoops, wrong file, sorry
21:22:58 <ais523> I'm uploading the sorted version now
21:26:00 <shachaf> So there are 4096 integers in a cycle and e.g. the distance from 8 to 0 is shorter than the distance from 0 to 8 (going forward)?
21:32:54 <ais523> wow, how did bing find the site already, I wonder?
21:35:40 <ais523> hmm, but it was checking the nonexistent directory /feed/ and nothing else
21:35:56 <ais523> I guess it's looking at whois, and just looking for http servers at every domain in existence
21:36:05 <ais523> (oh, it checked robots.txt first, like any good crawler should)
21:36:34 <shachaf> http://www.dailychanges.com/gandi.net/2012-04-17/
21:36:48 <shachaf> Look at all those great websites.
21:37:46 <ais523> some of those I'm surprised weren't already taken
21:41:21 <ais523> OK, hmm, I'm not even sure what the best data structure to use for this is
21:41:39 <ais523> I guess an array treated as a circular buffer, but then I'll need to special-case wrapping around
21:42:47 <shachaf> This is very similar to finding a Hamiltonian path, except you have more constraints.
21:42:59 <ais523> but graphs are a pain to find too
21:43:28 <shachaf> You can probably reduce this to some existing graph problem and find an existing solver for it. :-)
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22:05:48 <olsner> maybe you can just sort the values using the graph as an ordering
22:06:20 <olsner> ... while waving your hands like crazy
22:12:36 <ais523> sorts tend not to go in a cycle, sadly
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22:12:49 <ais523> I don't think I've heard of a cyclic sort algo
22:12:57 <ais523> and this is a cyclic /topological/ sort
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22:13:41 <shachaf> I may delay thinking about this until I have pencil and paper available. :-)
22:15:32 <ais523> <PJ> Ellison is in a suit and tie.
22:15:50 <ais523> hmm, I don't think it's theoretically possible for Larry Ellison /not/ to be in a suit and tie, right?
22:16:17 <ion> Elliott is in a suit and tie?
22:16:33 <ais523> ion: elliott isn't in charge of Oracle :)
22:20:55 -!- nortti has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
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22:28:36 <RocketJSquirrel> Geeze, I wear a tie every day and nobody gives me special props for it.
22:38:52 <ion> There was a stupid news article trying to make a commotion about the president’s official photo being photoshopped <http://www.iltasanomat.fi/kotimaa/kuva-sauli-niinistosta-poyristyttaa-raskaasti-photoshopattu---vertaa-itse/art-1288462723326.html>. People started to do some photoshopping of their own. :-D http://mikko.tuomela.net/temp/pic/niinisto_shopattu.jpg
22:38:53 <ion> http://www.radiocity.fi/files/picture_460/2012_04_17_4f8d7f8db45d7.jpg http://oi42.tinypic.com/et780n.jpg
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22:56:42 <calamari> RocketJSquirrel: do you like wearing a tie?
23:03:26 <calamari> then why do you need special props?
23:05:29 <kmc> everyone knows Real Programmers don't wear a tie [/troll]
23:06:02 -!- augur has joined.
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23:09:18 <calamari> there was a time when I liked wearing a tie too.. I was a mormon. not claiming one has to be a religious nutcase to wear a tie, of course
23:10:27 <calamari> writing correct shell scripts is a lot more work than I originally thought.. lots of ways to screw up
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23:13:17 <ais523> `addquote <calamari> there was a time when I liked wearing a tie too.. I was a mormon. not claiming one has to be a religious nutcase to wear a tie, of course
23:13:20 <HackEgo> 839) <calamari> there was a time when I liked wearing a tie too.. I was a mormon. not claiming one has to be a religious nutcase to wear a tie, of course
23:13:48 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:14:14 <ais523> or maybe it was unconnected
23:14:16 -!- calamari has joined.
23:14:32 <ais523> shachaf: so how are you getting on with the cyclic tsort?
23:14:59 <shachaf> ais523: Oh, I was going to do it after getting home, where I have paper.
23:15:19 <ais523> actually, some to think of it, there quite possibly isn't enough information there to work out the small-scale details
23:15:28 <ais523> except, umm, statistically
23:16:29 <ais523> well, I don't expect to have many or any distances of 1 or 2047
23:16:38 <ais523> so if two adjacent elements were swapped, would there be any way to tell?
23:16:55 <shachaf> Well, maybe, if there enough information from the other distance-pairs.
23:17:08 <shachaf> But I thought you just wanted any solution within the constraints.
23:18:12 <ais523> any solution is an interesting problem, but I'm looking for the actual one
23:18:22 <ais523> I guess I should work out the distribution of distances
23:18:26 <ais523> which is hard without knowing what the cycle is
23:18:59 <noor_> noor_: whrzbrianfart action learniggn for me am special
23:19:15 <noor_> noor_: noor_: whrzbrianfart action learniggn for me am special
23:21:35 <shachaf> ais523: What is the context of this PRNG?
23:22:03 <ais523> shachaf: it's from a computer game, Legend of Legaia; someone sent me a huge file of RNG output and I'm attempting to reverse-engineer it
23:23:01 <ais523> I believe that the values shown are the RNG's internal state at points in time, and multiple RNG calls were made between each line in the file I've got, and the number of calls made wasn't constant
23:23:01 <noor_> okoiliokoiliokoiloiklo
23:23:02 <ais523> running diehard on it shows that the lower bits are much less random than the higher bits, and the other tests I've been doing confirms that
23:23:08 <ais523> now, the period is longer than the amount of data I have, /but/ the low bits should repeat with a much shorter period
23:23:12 <ais523> and I'm trying to work out what the pattern is
23:23:32 <noor_> nmti,bbbbbbbbbbbbbhjjjjjjbjbjjjbjbbjbjjjooupuuupupuuuuytrewq
23:26:25 <noor_> greetings fellow flesh things! where perchance would you direct a brain case seeking brainfuck? serious responses only.
23:27:22 <noor_> meh, gyourgy ;df ancee ?nik qrt up
23:28:12 <ais523> noor_: there's a #brainfuck (or is it ##brainfuck?), but I don't think it's very active nowadys
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23:30:02 <noor_> where are the tomes god promised??
23:30:25 <kmc> i used to be a brainfuck fan like you, then i took a brick in the brain
23:31:30 <noor_> I'll take two. point 61803399
23:33:27 <ais523> kmc: oh no, you didn't try to make a derivative, did you?
23:33:32 * ais523 wonders what a BF integral would be like
23:33:40 <ais523> it'd be a language… that BF looked like it was based on…
23:34:25 <kmc> no i've never made a brainfuck derivative or integral
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23:36:40 <noor_> tel me things for know up learnsig up learn up up l
23:40:19 <noor_> what needs i to prove leetnis for worth earn
00:00:35 <noor_> GOMPUSER FOR TALK DO GO UM PULL BATCH FOR PROCCESS SEARCH TAG 'INTERESTING''
00:05:03 <noor_> hey guys give me the crumb trail for "electric sleep" kjh^ (8) ~chances are not good
00:08:39 <noor_> does brain fuck even exist I am skeptical.
00:27:53 <calamari> noor_: http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/bf/
00:38:11 <noor_> HMM, n how do you type half of a y??
00:39:47 <kmc> noor_ is already a strong contender for the Employee of the Month Award
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00:44:03 <noor_> great I'll spend the next week figuring out how to make pointers to pointers time well spent
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01:21:49 <monqy> isn't shachaf on the update list too?
01:22:42 <shachaf> monqy: iMMNRM notao on the a upadate taltist!!!!
01:23:11 <monqy> Sgeo: I'll translate for you
01:23:15 <monqy> Sgeo: I speak shachafese
01:23:27 <monqy> Sgeo: he said "yes thank you monqy I love being on the update list"
01:23:57 <shachaf> monqy: DID YOU KNOW: In Hebrew, "shachefet" means "tuberculosis"?
01:24:05 <shachaf> It also means "shachaf disease".
01:24:10 <shachaf> "shachaf" means "seagull".
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01:25:06 <shachaf> Sgeo: In shachafese that meant "take shachaf off the update list Sgeo"
01:25:50 <Sgeo> shachaf's update list status: Quantum superposition of "on the update list" and "off the update list"
01:26:05 <shachaf> aonfff hte uapl tels tislt?!?!
01:26:37 <Sgeo> monqy, translation?
01:27:15 <monqy> "I misspoke. I really want to be on the update list and not off it at all. Do not trust the shachaf that says he wants to be off the list. My one true desire is to be updated at whatever cost necessary."
01:27:31 <monqy> shachafese is a peculiar language indeed
01:28:06 <shachaf> noostOOPP no udaptests aplWASE!!
01:29:04 * Sgeo puts shachaf on the update list for updates regarding shachaf's status on various update lists.
01:29:25 <Sgeo> shachaf, UPDATE: You have been added to the update list for updates regarding shachaf's status on various update lists.
01:30:10 <shachaf> Sgeo: I think your logic is inconsistent or something if you don't have an infinite hierarchy of update lists.
01:30:10 <monqy> 18:28:06 < shachaf> noostOOPP no udaptests aplWASE!!
01:30:21 <monqy> "I am greatful for your updates, kind sir Sgeo."
01:30:37 <shachaf> ihaithieeeeiahtahAHTTAE MonqeyeQY!:'(
01:31:08 <Sgeo> shachaf, well, I think that update list also talks of updates to that very update list. But if you want to be on an infinite hierarchy of update lists, I can make it so...
01:31:10 <monqy> "thank you monqy for your translations and helping Sgeo understand my desires. hi monqy."
01:31:29 <shachaf> monqy: I WOULD NEVER SAY "hi monqy."!
01:33:34 <monqy> Sgeo: I wish to be on the update list of updates of update lists that do not contain updates of themselves.
01:34:41 <Sgeo> All conceivable update lists or all existent update lists? I've been assuming those are two separate things, and if we stick with existent update lists, there's no problem
01:35:36 <monqy> but what happens when it starts existing
01:36:56 <Sgeo> Nothing paradoxical, I ... think
01:37:14 <shachaf> monqy: hia re you ruapdate LIST??
01:37:46 <monqy> Sgeo: does it or does it not contain updates about itself?
01:38:15 <monqy> shachaf: yes, I too am glad to be on Sgeo's update lists.
01:39:06 <Sgeo> monqy, aargh derp
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04:06:08 <shachaf> thank you monqy for your translations and helping Sgeo understand my desires. hi monqy.
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04:22:29 <shachaf> monqy: can oaaaarwndo fnsfnanfnPEHI ModEIM noOLDFONP*#YRP(!Y#R!!!!!!!
04:23:59 <shachaf> monqy: is shachafese = best language
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05:07:26 <Sgeo> ....did Conservapedia just cite a cult?
05:08:56 <Sgeo> http://conservapedia.com/Premarital_sex
05:09:04 <Sgeo> Links to http://www.unification.org/the_blessing.html
05:09:15 <Sgeo> Which talks about Reverend Moon
05:10:22 <Sgeo> Um, well, I read something claiming the Unification Church is a "cult"
05:53:59 <kmc> you're reading conservapedia
05:54:02 <kmc> therefore you have been trolled
05:54:43 <Sgeo> I am starting to use lol a bit excessively.
06:17:33 <kmc> hi shachaf
06:18:27 <kmc> saying "lol" is fine
06:18:34 <shachaf> Have you seen the paper that's going around about negative and fractional types?
06:18:40 <shachaf> I haven't read it yet. :-(
06:18:42 <kmc> it's not even on my list of disliked words
06:18:43 <kmc> shachaf: no
06:19:02 <shachaf> http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~sabry/papers/rational.pdf
06:19:22 <shachaf> monqy: I'm hungry, what do I do. :-(
06:19:38 <shachaf> I ate so much food today, how can I be hungry?
06:19:50 <monqy> you could eat more food
06:50:19 <Sgeo> monqy, shachaf UPDATE
06:50:55 <shachaf> Sgeo: Please take me off the update list.
06:51:52 <Sgeo> shachaf, UPDATE! shachaf is off of an UPDATE list
06:52:33 <shachaf> Sgeo: Please take me off all the update lists.
06:53:12 <Sgeo> shachaf, I have no control of your computer, if you don't want to receive updated versions of stuff from your distro, that is your problem.
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08:40:02 <pikhq_> I am awake. Why am I awake.
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09:57:17 <shachaf> kmc: Did you know about 〔〕?
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10:14:41 <shachaf> 03037 IDEOGRAPHIC TELEGRAPH LINE FEED SEPARATOR SYMBOL [〷]
10:15:12 <shachaf> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/3037/index.htm
10:15:29 <shachaf> kmc: You should use ״ for quotation marks.
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14:08:34 <HackEgo> davidavo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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15:18:44 <Ngevd> Befunge minimilization
15:20:26 <Ngevd> SECOND IDEA OF THE DAY:
15:22:05 <Ngevd> There is no second idea
15:22:10 <Ngevd> Also, there is no audience
15:22:49 <fizzie> That's just what they want you to think.
15:23:46 <Ngevd> I mean a Fungoid with as few instructions as possible while remaining Turing-complete
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16:11:34 <RocketJSquirrel> <Ngevd> I mean a Fungoid with as few instructions as possible while remaining Turing-complete // so, 2L/1L
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16:25:20 <KingOfKarlsruhe> omg i've found an haskell example in my new c++11 book -.-
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16:43:15 <KingOfKarlsruhe> btw, is it right that the germans are the most task oriented culture in the world?
16:44:28 <RocketJSquirrel> A) That's not a mistake, in some accents you drop the 'h' and in that case it's considered correct to use "an". That's why I was curious.
16:44:55 <RocketJSquirrel> B) I think many people would agree with this, but I don't know if it's "right", it's more like a stereotype which may or may not have basis in reality.
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16:52:21 <KingOfKarlsruhe> RocketJSquirrel: in france you would say 'askell, because they do not pronounce the 'h'
16:53:02 <RocketJSquirrel> KingOfKarlsruhe: Given the sheer absurd number of French people currently working for my advisor, yes, I am aware ;)
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17:31:20 <quintopia> how do you know it isn't land of apples?
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17:32:56 <quintopia> well, i guess elliott is back today
17:33:18 <RocketJSquirrel> Oh, apparently it's neither, it's something related to both.
17:33:28 <quintopia> RocketJSquirrel: i thought that quince was a category of fruits which contained apple
17:33:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Apples have 5-fold symmetry, so maybe that's involved?
17:34:01 <RocketJSquirrel> "The quince (play /ˈkwɪns/), or Cydonia oblonga, is the sole member of the genus Cydonia and native to warm-temperate southwest Asia in the Caucasus region. It is a small, deciduous tree, growing 5–8 m tall and 4–6 m wide, related to apples and pears."
17:34:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Quince jelly is very nice with meat (I can't remember which meat).
17:35:16 <quintopia> i don't remember the rest of the chinese zodiac
17:35:36 <RocketJSquirrel> Phantom_Hoover: Preeeeeeeeeeetty sure any muscle tissue is considered meat.
17:36:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, but insects are a pretty long way away from most things we eat.
17:37:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, crustacean musculature might have evolved independently? I'd need to dissect a beetle really.
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17:40:17 <pikhq_> Maybe now elliott will get the sand out of his vagina.
17:40:47 <quintopia> he would have anyway at some point
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17:48:02 <elliott> pikhq_: I think we've all learned a valuable lesson today.
17:48:06 <elliott> (My valuable lesson was about Hebrew.)
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17:48:19 <elliottasdf> pikhq_: I hope you have learned your lesson.
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17:52:49 <quintopia> my valuable lesson was about machin-like functions. where "today" is loosely defined as "any time after midnight local time this date"
17:54:45 <nortti> my valuable lesson was checking which compiler you are using to compile Linux From Scratch (I used ARMv5 cross compiler)
17:55:06 <RocketJSquirrel> my valuable lesson was that friendship is magic. Your faithful student, Twilight Sparkle.
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18:48:24 <itidus21> my valuable lesson was (collected in haste just now from la fontaine) that possession is only in usage.
18:49:50 <ais523> hmm, sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from friendship?
18:52:01 <itidus21> my previous view was more about the ability to defend a thing (unless i had read this fable before)
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19:02:43 <oerjan> in today's iwc annotation: dmm _almost_ admits to reading terry pratchett
19:04:38 <oerjan> i suppose that's not funny unless you've been following the iwc forum for years
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19:10:51 <Ngevd> I'm going to talk about why I suggested Glass as a featured language
19:11:17 <Ngevd> Firstly, it is undoubtably esoteric
19:11:54 <nortti> Just watched James Cameron's Titanic. Now I'll just have to watch Atlantic from the 20's, Nazi version and the Night to remember from 50's
19:13:44 <Ngevd> Its paradigm is hard to understand, and is unlike virtually every other language
19:14:16 <olsner> nortti: have they made *other* movies about titanic??
19:14:57 <Ngevd> Secondly, it is featureful
19:16:00 <Ngevd> Its built-in classes define a wide range of functions that would be difficult to define in, say, brainfuck, Unlambda or ///
19:16:44 <Ngevd> This un-tarpitiness is rare in esolangs, the only other language that I can think of with as wide range of features would be Befunge
19:17:49 <Ngevd> Rant-shifting, a common skill in Hexham, is unheard of north of the border.#
19:18:30 <nortti> but about the real titanic there are Atlantic (No mention of Titanic because legal troubles with White Star Lines), Titanic (Nazi version), Night to remember and Titanic (James Cameron's version)
19:19:08 <Ngevd> Thirdly, the article is well-written, describes the language fully, and features numerous examples.
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19:20:15 <nortti> postfix notation is not unintuitive
19:20:23 <oerjan> Ngevd: you better make sure elliott logreads this :P
19:21:05 <Ngevd> It's a straight-to-video "sequel" to the Titanic
19:21:23 <Ngevd> With the tag line "100 years later, lightning strikes twice"
19:21:40 <Ngevd> oerjan, oh, I will.
19:22:17 <Ngevd> oerjan, can you discuss why you have nominated Deadfish?
19:22:28 <oerjan> elliott asked me to :P
19:22:41 <oerjan> and then i forgot to remind him properly on april 1 :(
19:23:08 <Ngevd> (I think it's quite a good suggestion- it's probably the most implemented esolang other than maybe brainfuck)
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19:24:11 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: titanic, the programming language which always ends in disaster?
19:24:53 <Ngevd> Phantom_Hoover, when you have returned from inventing language, would you discuss your nomination of Eodermdrone?
19:25:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Also the fact that nobody's written an interpreter has to give it at least /some/ credit.
19:26:03 <Ngevd> Yeah, I quite like the suggestion
19:26:46 <Ngevd> In terms of implementability, it's like Befunge but WORSE
19:28:53 <Ngevd> Wasn't there talk of oklopol or someone writing an inefficient interpreter?
19:29:30 <olsner> oklopol: the wiki says there are rumors of you doing that
19:29:31 <oklopol> yeah i implemented eodermdrome
19:30:13 <oklopol> and no, i haven't done it efficiently
19:30:29 <oklopol> i thought you were talking about deadfish for some reason
19:30:45 <Ngevd> deadfish is the opposite of eodermdrome
19:31:06 <oklopol> eodermdrome is great, so i suppose deadfish sucks ass
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19:32:22 <nortti> object oriented deadfish
19:32:35 <nortti> are you fucking kidding me?
19:32:57 <Ngevd> I am neither fucking nor kidding you
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19:34:15 <zzo38> Is it possible to define join for Yoneda without using fmap?
19:36:14 <oerjan> it's category theory, just outside my range
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19:36:29 <zzo38> newtype Yoneda f a = Yoneda { runYoneda :: forall b. (a -> b) -> f b }
19:36:48 <zzo38> This is Yoneda lemma; Yoneda f is essentially like f, but it is Functor even if f isn't
19:38:19 <Ngevd> So... join would be :: Yoneda f (Yoneda f a) -> Yoneda f a
19:38:49 <nortti> "The language defined by the
19:39:14 <Ngevd> Could you do runYoneda id?
19:39:30 <nortti> "The language defined by the Revised Revised Revised Revised Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme"
19:39:30 <zzo38> Ngevd: Yes. It can, if f is Monad, it already has join so it can be defined; I am just wanting to see if it can be defined using the join of f but without using the fmap of f
19:44:11 <nortti> It is actually a shame that Deadfish i doesn't have a conditional execution instruction
19:44:39 <zzo38> nortti: Then invent the variant which includes condition, if you want it
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19:55:14 <Ngevd> Hang on, we are using f's join
20:02:02 <Ngevd> From someone who doesn't know the first thing about Category theory, I don't think you can
20:05:24 <zzo38> Can you define pure and liftPair on Yoneda without using f's fmap, but using f's pure and liftPair?
20:06:07 <zzo38> I don't mean you personally
20:07:04 <Ngevd> pure a = Yoneda (\f -> pure (f a)) ?
20:07:20 <zzo38> Yes, I know that already
20:07:50 <Ngevd> Does that use the fmap?
20:08:03 <zzo38> That one doesn't use the fmap
20:08:09 <Ngevd> (I'm not sure why I'm answering, I haven't a clue what I'm doing)
20:08:16 <Ngevd> (What's liftPair?)
20:08:47 <zzo38> liftPair = uncurry (liftA2 (,))
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20:24:13 <zzo38> There seems not to be
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21:31:56 <zzo38> I changed TeXnicard to make "twelfth" instead of "twelvth" now. It was only an error in the template file, and is not a part of the program itself.
21:34:03 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you send cheques to people who find bugs in TeXnicard?
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21:40:31 <zzo38> But possibly after a lot of bugs are found and fixed, the program then works OK, and is used much, then after that, if I have secure cheques, I might be able to do so.
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21:42:14 <nortti> How had could it be to maintain Linux 2.4 by myself
21:43:11 <Ngevd> As hard as you make it
21:44:20 <nortti> It just feels so strange that it is no longer maintained
21:45:18 <pikhq_> Though there is still a RHEL version using it.
21:45:19 <olsner> why would you want to stay on 2.4?
21:47:10 <nortti> pikhq_: it wad end of lifed recently
21:47:53 <nortti> olsner: It is small and works great on my server (pc from 1994)
21:48:37 <Ngevd> nortti, wow, there's an approximately 5.6 chance that PC is older than me!
21:49:35 <olsner> people born in 1994 can be on IRC now? :S
21:49:43 <pikhq_> nortti: Nope, RHEL 3's end of extended life cycle is 2014.
21:50:19 <nortti> olsner: I was born in 1997
21:50:38 <pikhq_> olsner: People born in 1994 are graduating from high school.
21:52:44 <nortti> Ngevd: my relative bought it in July
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22:08:10 <nortti> "I provoke everyone to find a more mundane job than the maintenance of the 2.4 kernel... (the maintenace of 2.0 does not count as an answer...)"
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23:03:28 <tswett> Is "Vettla" a plausible Finnish surname?
23:05:29 <fizzie> Not very. There are none in the national name registry. Though admittedly it's more plausible than, say, "Zrqworzph".
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23:07:15 -!- RocketJSquirrel has set topic: I was trying to make a clever Finnish topic using Google Translate, but I couldn't make anything that it didn't translate back into gibberish | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
23:07:24 <tswett> Is "ttl" a legal consonant cluster?
23:09:34 <fizzie> It does not appear in my /usr/share/dict/finnish, except as part of "Seattle" and three inflections of it.
23:11:12 <fizzie> Ngevd: Finnish was the context.
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23:12:25 <fizzie> In fact there are very few matches for 'tt[^aeiouyäö]' at all. "Seattle", "http" and various things containing the word "attribuutti".
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23:13:21 * elliott considers the justice sufficient, disregarding the lesson unlearned.
23:13:24 <fizzie> "ltt" and such are fine, though.
23:14:05 <elliott> There's a better word than "disregarding" there.
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23:15:17 <RocketJSquirrel> Someone Finnish: What's Finnish for "This channel has been annexed by Finland."
23:15:49 <elliott> channela annexikuo suomi aatapi
23:16:14 <elliott> (there is no "x" in Finnish)
23:16:56 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Come on, what's the better word than "disregarding" there?
23:17:00 <elliott> It's "notwithstanding" except the opposite.
23:17:15 <elliott> Wait, maybe it *is* "notwithstanding".
23:19:05 <elliott> @tell ais523 I figured out why www.ja.net has that silly cookie notice -- that recent law requiring it. (bt.com has one too.)
23:21:25 <fizzie> "Suomi on ottanut haltuunsa tämän kanavan", if you don't mind the "Finland has annexed this channel" variant, and I'm not sure if that's the best word for "annex". ("anneksoida" would be the foreign-word-but-Finnished thing; it is used.)
23:21:41 <elliott> fizzie: Dude, your grammar is all wrong.
23:22:00 <elliott> fizzie: "suomi" always occurs as the second-last word in a clause, thus "channela annekkikuo suomi aatapi".
23:22:14 -!- RocketJSquirrel has set topic: Suomi on ottanut haltuunsa tämän kanavan | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
23:22:37 <elliott> And you have the previously-possesive tense "kanavan"; the pure imperfect hypothetical future-present tense is "aatapi".
23:23:13 <elliott> Starting to think that fizzie doesn't actually know any Finnish.
23:23:17 <elliott> fizzie: How do you say "today" in Finnish?
23:26:36 <fizzie> I'd like to say kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen, but I'm too tired to play along.
23:28:08 <elliott> fizzie: Okay, I guess you do know Finnish.
23:28:23 <elliott> fizzie: You should use that in everyday conversation sometime.
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23:31:47 <HackEgo> Patashu: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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23:33:48 <kmc> hi shachaf
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23:35:44 <shachaf> kmc: Works better with "hello".
23:35:54 <kmc> hellelliott
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00:24:12 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: An excellent example of Finnish.
00:25:47 <elliott> Wait, that's actual Finnish?
00:25:52 <elliott> I deal only in the finest fake Finnish.
00:26:12 <RocketJSquirrel> You'll have to ask fizzie if it's real, but Google Translate thinks it is X-D
00:26:56 <elliott> Then I said, 'porridge? Hull Are you? "Oh ...
00:27:19 <RocketJSquirrel> It mistranslated it because I cut off the word "hullu" (to match the original quote)
00:27:46 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: What's the quote?
00:28:33 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Don'tn't I?
00:29:15 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: "And then I said, 'Oatmeal? Are you craz–?!' Oh ..."
00:29:30 <shachaf> RocketJSquirrel: Crazy about oatmeal?
00:30:31 <shachaf> RocketJSquirrel: I wish I spoke Finnish. :-(
00:30:52 <shachaf> RocketJSquirrel: WELL YOU'RE NOT A CITIZEN OF FINLAND, ARE YOU?
00:31:05 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/a/4247184/1097181 I like how this answer is wasted on a question that *doesn't even contain the word "number"*.
00:31:23 <elliott> I mean, come on. How hard can it be to find a question with "number" in it to put that on?
00:31:32 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least five of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
00:35:52 <elliott> `learn Europe is a Finlandic country.
00:35:58 <elliott> `learn Europe is a Finlandic country. More details as they become available.
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02:37:52 <zzo38> Is it a proper comonad? data LeftCo m f x = forall z. LeftCo (f (m z) -> x) (f z); fmap f (LeftCo x y) = LeftCo (f . x) y; duplicate (LeftCo x y) = LeftCo (LeftCo (x . fmap join)) y; extract (LeftCo x y) = x (return <$> y);
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07:08:40 <Sgeo> http://conservapedia.com/RINO
07:09:05 <Sgeo> "A less-used term is cafeteria conservative, for a person who picks and chooses which conservative principles to believe, as a person might choose foods in a cafeteria instead of ordering the full-course menu selected by the chef at most restaurants."
07:09:17 <Sgeo> Clearly, it is SINFUL to not tow the party line on every single issue.
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07:37:19 <kmc> why are you reading conservapedia
07:37:24 <kmc> trolling by proxy is still trolling
07:37:37 <kmc> "my friend says haskell gives you aids, i think he's wrong but plz give a detailed rebuttal"
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07:59:24 <Sgeo> http://www.tektoonics.com/etc/parody/fundyath.html
07:59:37 <Sgeo> How is that website so fundamentally broken that it can't process a GET?
08:03:13 <ais523> failing GET is pretty broken, indeed
08:03:13 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
08:03:51 <Madoka-Kaname> Pretty sure that's it's way of saying "403 forbidden"
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08:58:51 <kmc> GET isn't webscale
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10:06:31 <NSQX> !bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
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10:07:03 <NSQX> !bf ++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++++>+++++++++++++>++++++++++++++<<<<]>++.>>>++.<<+.>+.>----.<---.>++++++.<<.
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10:27:00 <HackEgo> 139) <Gregor> alise: I suck at coding related.
10:27:08 <HackEgo> 456) <oklopol> you know that thing in the movies where they put a pillow on someone's face and try to suffocate them <oklopol> that doesn't work. <oklopol> we tried that with my ex once, but we just couldn't kill each other that way
10:27:15 <HackEgo> 445) <oklofok> mixing drinks together is like taking all of mozart's works and listening to all of them at once <oklofok> and in general a drink - and most foods - are kind like taking a song and then just taking the average of the notes and listening to it for three minutes. <oklofok> olsner: the point is you don't have to be the composer yourself <oklofok> not everyone knows what sequences of drinks taste the best
10:27:36 <HackEgo> 678) <Phantom_Hoover> Life expectancy now is a function of whether you go berserk or not.
10:27:48 <HackEgo> 664) <yrlnry> I personally use while ("Cogito, ergo sum") { ... } because since that is a priori true, it is true in all possible universes, and therefore ensures maximum portability.
10:28:04 <HackEgo> *poof* <Gregor> alise: I suck at coding related.
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11:01:39 <ais523> hmm, Raymond Chen says that Windows 3.1 was cooperative not preëmptive, so I guess that's a reliable source for my opinion after all
11:12:02 <fizzie> You could also just Wikipedia, it's [insert large number here]% likely to be correct.
11:13:13 <fizzie> Well, or Microsoft. http://support.microsoft.com/kb/117567 - "Under Windows 3.x and Windows for Workgroups 3.x, 16-bit applications multitask cooperatively by frequently yielding control of the CPU to other programs."
11:13:42 <fizzie> But then again, what would *they* know about Windows.
11:17:55 <ais523> someone was telling me, in here I think, that it was preëmptive, even though I remember it being cooperative having written programs for it
11:25:48 <fizzie> Which rule is responsible for making it preëmptive but not coöperative?
11:26:16 <fizzie> Where "it" is no longer Windows 3.x.
11:29:30 <kmc> well in the real world you do see "coöperative"
11:29:42 <kmc> "preëmptive" is a nice pun on that, which went over my head :/
11:30:41 <kmc> but afaik both are legitimate use of the diaeresis
11:35:05 <kmc> not to be confused with diuresis
11:49:49 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27164
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12:28:48 <ais523> oh wow, that actually worked
12:28:56 <ais523> I had a bunch of messages in my inbox that I wanted in mbox format
12:29:14 <ais523> I couldn't find an export command, so I just tried dragging and dropping them to a text editor
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12:47:19 <itidus21> Haluan olla ensimminen tervetulleeksi uuden suomalaisista yliherruuteen.
12:53:16 <itidus21> i am only using google translate of course
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14:38:55 <nortti> "sh: ls: not found" aw shit
14:39:18 <nortti> "sh: busybox: not found"
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14:46:45 <Ngevd> sed lingua latina repulsit
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14:54:12 <Taneb> Suomi on mestari ...
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14:56:03 <nortti> eli ketkäs kaikki tällä kanavalla oli suomalaisia
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15:40:47 <itidus21> Joku liitetty thn toiseen kanavaan. Se on hieman esoteerinen mielestni. http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=en&tl=fi&u=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBASIC_Programming
15:42:49 <nortti> itidus21: käytitkö google kääntäjää vai onko itse kirjoitettu viesti?
15:44:36 <nortti> it translates to "Something pasted to this another channel. I think it bit esoteric."
15:44:41 <elliott> nortti: on kiva kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen!
15:44:41 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:49:32 <nortti> elliott: "is fun twentyfourhourscurrentimeperiod"
15:50:03 <elliott> nortti: no, "have a nice day", you need to go back to finnish lessons
15:51:06 <elliott> that just makes it worse : (
15:52:10 <nortti> itidus21: "OK to there via hand"
15:52:12 <elliott> ais523: hmm, someone replying to "is this really esoteric?" with "I suppose that depends on your definition of esoteric..." is a good sign the language isn't actually esoteric, right?
15:52:37 <ais523> elliott: moderately good, not perfect
15:53:10 <elliott> http://www.codehosting.net/blog/BlogEngine/post/Improvements-to-DALIS.aspx it pretty much just looks like BASIC to me
16:02:30 <elliott> "It is still true that any propositional statement can be proven or disproven in constructive propositional logic" err, this isn't true, is it?
16:02:36 <elliott> oh, I guess it is in the first-order variant djinn uses
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17:12:03 <elliott> [[According to a recent blog post, Apple discovered that Microsoft had planted a spy in their organisation, and deliberately leaked a copy of obsolete System 7 source code, machine-translated to INTERCAL, claiming it was the latest build of OS X 10.2. Bill Gates initially fell for the trick and seriously told his programmers to incorporate the INTERCAL code into Windows Vista. JIP | Talk 05:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
17:12:04 <elliott> Due to INTERCAL's limited I/O capabilities, this seems unlikely. I can't imagine anyone writing an OS in INTERCAL-72, and neither C-INTERCAL or CLC-INTERCAL can do graphics as far as I know, so presumably this is a new secret flavour of INTERCAL? --ais523 09:49, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
17:12:04 <elliott> Yes, it seems pretty clear that the blog was meant to be a joke. This is probably why blogs aren't considered reliable sources; I'd recommend not putting this information in the article. --ais523 12:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
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17:19:37 <olsner> hmm, "In recognition of your contributions to Stack Overflow, we’d like to invite you to create a professional profile on Stack Overflow Careers 2.0."
17:19:56 <olsner> I have answered like two questions, but apparently that's a contribution to recognize
17:20:25 <elliott> olsner: I got one of those too.
17:20:31 <elliott> I... think they send them out to a lot of people.
17:20:47 * elliott made an account and then didn't actually make a profile. To stick it to the man.
17:23:07 <ais523> hmm, are they challenging LinkedIn, I wonder?
17:23:42 <elliott> ais523: I don't think you can "challenge" LinkedIn, seeing as I am not aware of a single person on the planet who likes LinkedIn.
17:23:49 <elliott> Anyway, Stack Overflow careers has been around for years.
17:24:02 <elliott> It doesn't have any of the silly social networking stuff AFAIK.
17:24:45 <olsner> I suspect that the ones who evidently make money on running linkedin kind of like it
17:25:07 <olsner> maybe recruiters like it too, even though it's mostly a device for sucking money out of recruiters
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17:30:44 <Phantom_Hoover> OMG, the Humble Introversion Bundle came with Steam keys!
17:31:12 <nortti> can I have a link to the blog post?
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18:05:48 <Sgeo> Ngevd, you haven't been here for Homestuck Updates. Just check if there are any unread updates
18:05:57 <Sgeo> (Or variously I haven't been here)
18:06:26 <Ngevd> I get the RSS feed, which tends to be a few minutes slower than you, but I get them anyway
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18:12:56 <monqy> do I have a reputation :(
18:13:07 <monqy> I thought that was shachaf!
18:15:27 <elliott> olsner: monqy has given up the sin of excessive hi
18:16:31 <Ngevd> just how hi do you need to be to even do something like that
18:16:56 <monqy> I wonder what old old monqy was like
18:17:16 <Ngevd> As hold as two hills
18:17:34 <monqy> maybe he has grey hair and wrinkles
18:17:37 <monqy> old people have that right
18:18:12 <shachaf> Old people have a lot of things right.
18:20:34 <shachaf> monqy: Is new monqy even a monqy?
18:20:45 <olsner> new monqy is wrinkly due to recently being born, old monqy is wrinkly for the opposite reason
18:20:56 <shachaf> monnqy: Is new monqy Primate of All England?
18:21:06 <olsner> there's probably a monqy somewhere being wrinkly due to having taken a bath too
18:23:04 <elliott> note to self: Apr 2 at 17:15
18:23:25 <shachaf> note to elliott: Jun 09 at 13:22
18:23:31 <olsner> elliott: self is not here right now, maybe you want to use @tell
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18:24:09 <shachaf> @tell Taneb how predictable !
18:24:23 <monqy> what have I done :(
18:24:35 <shachaf> monqy: what have you done :(
18:28:09 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/revisions/10231231/1
18:31:24 <Sgeo> There exist "Mystery" articles on Conservapedia
18:32:38 <Sgeo> http://conservapedia.com/Category:Mystery
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18:36:58 <elliott> "It's not claimed to be the monad implementation of the state type, just equivalent to it. Actual compilers implement the state monad more efficiently (that's why there is no accessible construtor for it), but more complicated. – leftaroundabout 3 hours ago"
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18:45:24 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Heyyyyy now.
18:45:29 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: People actually use UHC.
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18:46:35 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Better than D, which has three compilers, none of which work :P
18:47:01 * elliott wishes RocketJSquirrel still did D so he could use things like that.
18:47:24 <RocketJSquirrel> Well, to be fair, it's more like three, each of which have two incompatible versions.
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18:58:34 <Sgeo> RocketJSquirrel, your JIT is the thing that's surprisingly portable?
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18:59:54 <olsner> Sgeo: yes, that's why the surprisingly portable thing has his name on it and is described as a JIT
19:00:45 <zzo38> Is that program available by now?
19:01:21 -!- RocketJSquirrel has set topic: Suomi on ottanut haltuunsa tämän kanavan | Wooh Gregor Richards is an egomaniac wooh http://ioccc.org/years.html#2011_richards | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:03:23 <nortti> Suomi on ottanut kanavan haltuun ja silti puhutaan englantia?
19:03:49 -!- MoALTz_ has joined.
19:04:06 <RocketJSquirrel> nortti: Because even the Finnish aren't willing to use their craaazy language too much.
19:05:23 <nortti> why is it crazy? Lento§uihkuturbiiniapulaismekaanikkoaliupseerioppilas
19:05:56 -!- elliott has set topic: Gregor Richards loses IOCCC; "worst submission ever", say judges | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:06:05 <olsner> apparently, finnish is my default language on google translate now
19:06:11 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I like how their Makefile is Creative Commons-licensed.
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19:08:25 <elliott> fizzie: Remember how your channel thing had online teletext???
19:08:29 <elliott> SO DO WE http://www.ceefax.tv/txtmaster.php?page=101&subpage=2&channel=bbc1
19:08:56 <fizzie> I saw something about the end of ceefax or something somewhere.
19:09:05 <elliott> Yes, it's dying with analogue.
19:10:19 <fizzie> Ah, page 697 is related.
19:10:58 <elliott> SOAK UP THE FOREIGN CULTURE!!!
19:11:13 <fizzie> Fortunately "red button".
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19:12:01 <elliott> "As part of this process, Ceefax will disappear from your screens."
19:12:08 <elliott> Well, it's more direct than most shutdown announcements.
19:13:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: In October.
19:13:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Once analogue shuts off.
19:14:15 <fizzie> Incidentally, we're switching from our current "there's a set price you need to pay if you have a TV set" model to a "public TV service is funded by a specific, progressively-graded tax you have to pay no matter what" model, so I might be digging up my DVB stuff from storage, given that we'd anyway be paying for the privilege.
19:15:06 <fizzie> There used to be more context in teletext, here, all kinds of viewer letters and whatnot.
19:15:13 <RocketJSquirrel> <-- so confused by non-private models of television broadcasting X-D
19:15:20 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: ceefax, v. to see facts
19:15:43 <elliott> fizzie: In the UK, we have the former model, except the regulators just assume that everybody owns a television.
19:15:50 <elliott> And sends you nastygrams if you don't pay them regardless.
19:16:10 <elliott> Also they have scary adverts on TV warning you about how their DATABASE will let them CATCH YOU if you don't pay with ominous music.
19:16:31 <Phantom_Hoover> (Ominous music is a widely-accepted fiat currency in the UK.)
19:16:55 <RocketJSquirrel> See, with the American model, at least we don't have that ... just nine minutes of ads per every twenty-one minutes of content (and/or credits)
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19:17:02 <fizzie> Oh, they do send letters for everyone here too. Though they do say "you can disregard this letter if you don't have a system capable for watching TV" in them.
19:17:14 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: By "advert", I mean "thing that appears in-between programs".
19:17:23 <elliott> 'Cuz you see THE BBC DOESN'T HAVE ADVERTS IN THE MIDDLE OF PROGRAMS
19:17:28 <fizzie> We're all red in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_licence
19:17:28 <nortti> fizzie: actually if I remember correctly you only have to pay if you have radio, TV or computer withvinternet access (potential tv). Doesn't need to be functional though
19:17:55 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I know you know, but feel the need to point it out to make you feel inferior.
19:17:57 <elliott> <fizzie> Oh, they do send letters for everyone here too. Though they do say "you can disregard this letter if you don't have a system capable for watching TV" in them.
19:18:12 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: By "advert", I mean "thing that appears in-between programs".
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19:18:17 <fizzie> nortti: Isn't that pretty much what I said? And you don't need to pay for a radio receiver.
19:18:19 <elliott> fizzie: I gather here it's more like "If you DON'T own a TV and you're still reading this letter, then MAYBE YOU SHOULD PROVE IT??? Otherwise we'll keep being nasty."
19:18:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hmm, really?
19:18:43 <elliott> I swear I've seen them on the BBC too.
19:18:51 <elliott> Well, whatever, why are you letting facts get in the way?
19:18:54 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know, now that I think about it it really makes no sense.
19:19:04 <elliott> Actually, you might be right...
19:19:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, erm, you need a TV license to watch 4 too, I think.
19:19:41 <elliott> Because if you can watch 4, you have the ability to watch the BBC, so you have to pay even if you don't want to.
19:19:58 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott, Phantom_Hoover: The really funny thing about how American TV works is that in some of the "premiere" stations that you have to pay your cable company extra to get, they don't air any ads, but to allow their shows to be picked up for syndication, they're still 21 or 42 minutes long :)
19:20:00 <elliott> (Don't all the terrestrial channels get some money from the license fee?)
19:20:01 <Phantom_Hoover> But most of the licence fee goes to the BBC (although 4 gets some of it).
19:20:05 <elliott> (WHY IS THIS COUNTRY SO COMPLICATED)
19:20:49 <fizzie> Or a computer with Internet access if you don't have some sort of a video-over-the-net thing for it. (They used to have a fancy "send the DVB TV streams over multicast USP" IPTV setup at the university student village.)
19:20:55 <Phantom_Hoover> RocketJSquirrel, comment on superfluousness of 5th channel.
19:21:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, to be fair, everyone hates ITV too.
19:21:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Did you know that ITV4 is the greatest simulation of ennui ever created?
19:22:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, the BBC's adlessness gets annoying when there's a film or something else long on and you never have the chance for tea.
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19:22:27 <elliott> They should just have intermissions.
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19:22:40 <elliott> Like, show a kitten for three minutes every now and then.
19:22:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Probably both, and AFAIK ITV2 is just ITV with a time delay and rearranged.
19:22:48 <olsner> BBC doesn't have tea breaks? O.O
19:23:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Nah, ITV2 is ITV1 except crappier.
19:23:44 <elliott> I think they do a lot of repeating of ITV1 when they don't have something worse to show.
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19:24:20 <elliott> "but is required by its licence to broadcast at least 100 hours of new arts and music programmes, 110 hours of new factual programmes and premier 20 international films each year"
19:24:29 <elliott> I like how BBC Four's license explicitly requires it to be a snob.
19:25:59 * elliott batters up his oh americanism burnt anus.
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19:27:25 <nortti> sorry if this question is stupid but can I staticaly link LGPL library to my WTFPL program?
19:27:37 <fizzie> RocketJSquirrel: Also this one Finnish channel (SuomiTV) is changing to "FOX TV", becoming part of a "FOX International Channels", which is part of the Fox Entertainment Group, which I suppose is one of your things?
19:27:40 <elliott> If your program is C, yes.
19:27:43 <elliott> That's the point of the LGPL.
19:27:51 <elliott> If it's not C, depends on the implementation details of your compiler!
19:28:08 <elliott> With GHC, LGPL = GPL because of its compilation model.
19:29:16 <elliott> Except it's just the American one.
19:29:27 <RocketJSquirrel> fizzie: FOX is the one that presents conservative rabble as news and for entertainment allows some shows to run for twenty-two years while good ones get canceled in the first seasons.
19:29:34 <fizzie> I don't think ours will be "real FOX", though.
19:29:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Pretty sure there aren't many countries the long arm of Murdoch has escaped.
19:30:46 <Phantom_Hoover> The irony is that its news has an Iranian conservative slant.
19:31:15 <elliott> "Cameron should have just followed history and flogged some seats in the Lords, if they still have value! precedents of centuries ." --Rupert Murdoch
19:31:42 <elliott> "@dafta420 Agreed." --Rupert Murdoch, replying to "Dafta The Truth Duck"
19:32:13 <fizzie> They're not going to be showing "FOX News", for example, I don't think. At least this page says they're still just sending the STT news broadcast. But they will start some Fox Entertainment shows, like that zombie thing.
19:32:19 <elliott> "@rupertmurdoch" --Rupert Murdoch, replying to "Rupert Murdoch" (http://twitter.com/#!/rupertmurdoch/status/169598763248267266)
19:33:31 <calamari> I was hoping it would have died by now
19:35:26 <fizzie> I wouldn't be surprised if it was in fact still growing, if you e.g. count numbers of tweets.
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19:37:46 <elliott> What's the third field in an http access log?
19:37:54 <elliott> It's usually a -, as in "ip - -"
19:38:02 <zzo38> elliott: It depends how it is configured; look up the configuration.
19:39:00 <elliott> zzo38: I think the format is standard...
19:39:43 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I have one >_>
19:40:28 <RocketJSquirrel> The "hyphen" in the output indicates that the requested piece of information is not available. In this case, the information that is not available is the RFC 1413 identity of the client determined by identd on the clients machine. This information is highly unreliable and should almost never be used except on tightly controlled internal networks. Apache httpd will not even attempt to determine this information unless IdentityCheck is set to On.
19:40:53 <elliott> Soo... why would it ever be @^Y@+,@~q|wpmymzz2()2|pq{jvk@-1*,@lvo.(,1-+*1)+1&,@'/ in an nginx log >_>
19:40:57 <elliott> Pretty sure nginx doesn't make identd requests.
19:41:14 <RocketJSquirrel> Is it literally that string, or are you just implying that it's nonsense?
19:41:37 <fizzie> RocketJSquirrel: Isn't %l the second field in Apache "combined" format, not third?
19:41:56 <RocketJSquirrel> Right, just noticed that my format was a bit askew since I prepent the vhost.
19:42:08 <RocketJSquirrel> This is the userid of the person requesting the document as determined by HTTP authentication. The same value is typically provided to CGI scripts in the REMOTE_USER environment variable. If the status code for the request (see below) is 401, then this value should not be trusted because the user is not yet authenticated. If the document is not password protected, this part will be "-" just like the previous one.
19:42:27 <elliott> I can assure you those documents are not password-protected...
19:42:46 <RocketJSquirrel> Maybe nginx records a given user-ID even if there's no authentication?
19:45:10 <fizzie> nginx "combined" format always has a dash as second, and $remote_user as third; it doesn't exactly list details when that's set, but I guess it's possible it gets set if the client sends an auth header while the page doesn't care.
19:46:13 * elliott wonders who's doing that :P
19:47:50 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: Did I just manage to drop some nonsense in the logs?
19:48:15 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: What URL?
19:48:57 <elliott> No entry in the access log.
19:49:01 <elliott> Or in the error log for that matter.
19:49:04 <elliott> How did you make the request?
19:49:14 <elliott> 128.211.1.48 - - [19/Apr/2012:19:48:48 +0000] "GET /wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_portal HTTP/1.1" 200 8000 "http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page" "Mozill
19:49:15 <elliott> a/5.0 (X11; Linux i686 on x86_64; rv:11.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/11.0"
19:49:58 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Apr 19 20:50:30
19:50:09 <elliott> 128.211.1.48 - helloworld [19/Apr/2012:19:49:54 +0000] "GET /wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_portal HTTP/1.1" 200 21252 "-" "curl/7.19.6 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) libcurl/7.19.6 GnuTLS/2.8.5 zlib/1.2.3"
19:50:17 <elliott> Wonder what happens if you include spaces.
19:50:26 <elliott> ais523: hey, it's been a month since the featured language changed
19:50:39 <elliott> ais523: any opinions on which one we should go with next?
19:50:44 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: 128.211.1.48 - I am a cruel and vicious human being [19/Apr/2012:19:50:34 +0000] "GET /wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_portal HTTP/1.1" 200 21252 "-" "curl/7.19.6 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) libcurl/7.19.6 GnuTLS/2.8.5 zlib/1.2.3"
19:50:51 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Try including a space and a [ :P
19:50:55 <ais523> elliott: too tired for opinions
19:51:38 <elliott> Deadfish, Eodermdrome, Glass, Kipple, Sortle, and Unlambda
19:51:57 <elliott> Kipple's article needs a bit of work (uses <pre> for table, etc.), so it's probably not a good choice
19:53:41 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: 128.211.1.48 - - [lolwut] [19/Apr/2012:19:52:51 +0000] "GET /wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_portal HTTP/1.1" 200 21252 "-" "curl/7.19.6 (x86_64-pc-linux-
19:53:41 <elliott> gnu) libcurl/7.19.6 GnuTLS/2.8.5 zlib/1.2.3"
19:53:53 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Congrats, you have preemptively ruined any attempts I might make to parse the logfiles :P
19:54:44 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Hey, I'm tryina' feature Glass, but you need to help me flesh out the main page text.
19:54:48 <elliott> '''[[Glass]]''' is a stack-based, object-oriented esoteric programming language invented by [[Gregor Richards]]. It combines an unintuitive postfix notation with heavy object-orientation, requiring extensive juggling of a main stack combined with its object-oriented structure. No other language that the author knows of is implemented like this, because it would be idiotic. {{more|Glass}}
19:55:56 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: btw, you should consider submitting a bug report to nginx ...
19:56:49 <elliott> '''[[Glass]]''' is a stack-based, object-oriented esoteric programming language invented by [[Gregor Richards]]. It combines an unintuitive postfix notation, inspired by the low-level language [[wikipedia:Forth|]], with heavy object-orientation, in the style of high-level languages such as [[wikipedia:Smalltalk|]]. The result requires extensive juggling of a main stack combined with its object-oriented structure. No other language that the author
19:56:49 <elliott> knows of is implemented like this, because it would be idiotic. {{more|Glass}}
19:56:58 <elliott> I don't know if you were actually inspired by Forth, though :P
19:58:11 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: That feels a bit repetitive though >_>
19:58:17 <RocketJSquirrel> "Although weakly object oriented, having no data hiding or inheritance, it includes classes, methods and instances, and encourages the use of these features by encapsulating most typically-fundamental features, such as arithmetic, into methods of classes."
19:59:05 <nortti> what was the name of the distro of that crazy guy who still maintains libc4
19:59:33 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: How about
19:59:34 <elliott> Glass is a stack-based esoteric programming language invented by Gregor Richards. Although weakly object oriented, having no data hiding or inheritance, it includes classes, methods and instances, and encourages the use of these features by encapsulating most typically-fundamental features, such as arithmetic, into methods of classes. No other language that the author knows of is implemented like this, because it would be idiotic. (more…)
20:00:10 <RocketJSquirrel> The "No other language that the author knows of" bit is about OO+stack, not about OO+arithmetic-in-OO, which isn't so unusual.
20:00:14 -!- MoALTz has joined.
20:00:43 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I don't like how the first mention of OO there is behind a "weakly" and qualifiers, though.
20:00:52 <elliott> Seems like that can be omitted from a front-page intro.
20:01:34 <nortti> "new kernel source tarballs are over 300mb unpacked"
20:01:46 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: OK, how about this: '''[[Glass]]''' is a stack-based esoteric programming language invented by [[Gregor Richards]]. It is an object-oriented language, including classes, methods and instances, and encourages the use of these features by encapsulating most typically-fundamental features, such as arithmetic, into methods of classes. The result requires extensive juggling of a main stack, similar to [[wikipedia:Forth|]], combined wi
20:01:46 <elliott> th heavy object-orientation. No other language that the author knows of is implemented like this, because it would be idiotic. {{more|Glass}}
20:03:33 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page Tada
20:04:45 <nortti> mastodon linux looks pretty awesome
20:05:42 <nortti> if it just used sonething more modern suck as 2.4 as kernel I would probably switch to it
20:05:50 <elliott> Now http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page contains a previously-featuredlist \o/
20:08:24 <fizzie> RocketJSquirrel: Did you try out an embedded newline in the username?
20:09:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:09:51 <elliott> fizzie: Is there a nice Unicode character that looks like a tick in a circle or such?
20:10:31 <fizzie> I don't know about a circle; there are some official checkbox-mark-things.
20:11:12 <fizzie> And of course you could have a combining circle around a tick.
20:11:33 <elliott> Right, but I want a filled-circle-with-hollow-check.
20:13:15 <RocketJSquirrel> fizzie: Ohwait, the username is just a header, so newlines wouldn't work anyway :(
20:13:24 <fizzie> RocketJSquirrel: It's base64'd.
20:13:47 <fizzie> RocketJSquirrel: In order to make any kind of funky password header-safe.
20:14:03 <nortti> "You should not be using libc4 for anything any more. If you do use it, we will hunt you down and execute you as an example to others. (Not really, but you get the point...)"
20:14:03 <fizzie> The header contents are "user:pass", base64'd.
20:17:45 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Take a look at the top-right of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Glass 8D
20:17:52 * elliott makes it actually go in the top area like it's supposed to.
20:19:14 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: That is the ugliest check mark I've seen in my entire life.
20:19:27 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Screenshot?
20:20:26 <elliott> Yeah, I moved the CSS to common.css.
20:24:44 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:24:47 <elliott> fizzie: How does the icon on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Glass look to you?
20:25:16 -!- Frooxius has joined.
20:26:15 <RocketJSquirrel> I think I only have that symbol in a bitmap font on this work machine >_>
20:30:30 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Glass?useskin=monobook ;; lol
20:33:45 <Sgeo> I have a math problem I want a computer answer to
20:33:52 <fizzie> It looks rectangular to this borwser.
20:33:57 <Sgeo> Out of habit, I reach for GHCi rather than any Common Lisp thing
20:34:03 <Sgeo> How am I ever going to learn CL?
20:35:55 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: What browser you using?
20:37:17 <fizzie> Uh, this was this N900 not-very-new-Gecko-based "MicroB" thing. I'm kinda resting. Looked similar still.
20:37:57 <elliott> Sgeo: How does the icon on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Glass look to you?
20:38:21 <Sgeo> What is the checkmark for?
20:38:45 <fizzie> elliott: Oh, right, now it circulatified.
20:39:07 <nortti> also rectangular in opera mini. And MicroB uses gecko 1.9.2 (Same as Firefox 3.6)
20:39:30 <elliott> Sgeo: Hover over and/or click it.
20:39:53 <Sgeo> Ok, so it's a featured language
20:40:03 <Sgeo> What am I supposed to be noticing, exactly?
20:40:28 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/checky.png
20:40:44 <Sgeo> Mine looks a bit different
20:41:05 <Sgeo> Mine is completely contained within the circle, it does not touch the edge
20:41:11 <elliott> Yes, fizzie has bad fonts.
20:41:15 <elliott> Sgeo: Screenshot would be appreciated
20:41:20 <elliott> It's just all CSSy so there's a lot of possible variation.
20:42:42 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/Dhfvz.png
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20:47:24 <Ngevd> Wow, my suggestion was chosen to be the Featured Language?
20:47:45 <Ngevd> Even though I did nothing to create the language!
20:48:49 <Ngevd> Glass was created in 2005.
20:48:51 <elliott> Ngevd: How does the check icon on the article look to you?
20:49:04 <Ngevd> It makes it look fairtrade?
20:49:09 <itidus21> Ngevd: and have you know gregor in 2005?
20:49:23 <elliott> (A screenshot would be helpful.)
20:49:35 <Ngevd> I first heard about esolangs in 2007 at the earliest
20:51:00 <Ngevd> I don't believe I have ever met Gregor, and if I did, it would have most likely been in 1998 when I was 3
20:52:22 <Ngevd> TO IMAGE HOSTING WEBSITE
20:53:03 <Ngevd> http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff508/Taneb/featuredarticleHUEG.png
20:53:38 <Ngevd> I really need to use those news extensions sometime
20:54:50 <elliott> Oh come on, you have the same bitmap font?
20:55:15 <elliott> Ngevd: What OS do you use?
20:55:24 <Ngevd> At the moment, Windows 7
20:55:38 <elliott> Ngevd: Can I have a higher-resolution screenshot? :P
20:57:02 <itidus21> http://oi44.tinypic.com/2r3l6jk.jpg
20:57:58 <elliott> "Radio buttons were named after the physical buttons used on older car radios to select preset stations – when one of the buttons was pressed, other buttons would pop out, leaving the pressed button the only button in the "pushed in" position."
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20:58:00 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Did you know that???
20:58:47 * Sgeo o.Os at Windows XP
20:59:09 <elliott> I mean, I knew car buttons did that.
20:59:14 <elliott> But I didn't realise that's where "radio button" came from.
21:00:28 -!- Ngevd has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:00:42 <itidus21> Sgeo: notice how i tried to emulate the general style of the other screenshots :P
21:02:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Dude you know that I get a kernel crash when I try to boot my Arch partition.
21:03:52 <elliott> I meant re: <Phantom_Hoover> oh god you're talking about windows
21:12:16 <zzo38> If you have any games to qualify for CGA Collection, then please notify me about it. I already have many games but you can add more too
21:12:20 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: try pressing e at grub and adding init=/bin/sh at the end
21:12:46 <nortti> of kernel boot arguments
21:13:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That command will wipe your hard drive permanently: so yse.
21:13:41 <elliott> Note: elliott cannot be trusted.
21:13:51 <elliott> This statement is a lie, but that one wasn't.
21:13:55 <elliott> Everything I say is false. This statement is true.
21:14:42 -!- elliott has changed nick to everyonewhoisnte.
21:14:55 -!- everyonewhoisnte has changed nick to corpseofeveryone.
21:14:59 -!- corpseofeveryone has changed nick to whoisntelliott.
21:15:01 -!- whoisntelliott has changed nick to elliott.
21:16:07 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: init boot argument specifies init process. If it will boot the problem may be caused bt broken /bin/init
21:16:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Don't trust nortti. He is not an antelope. Ask the sky.
21:16:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm. The errors that show don't seem to fit what I'd expect there, but I can't show anyone the errors without a camera and I'm too lazy to take photos.
21:17:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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21:37:11 <nortti> what alternative c compiler do you suggest.
21:40:44 <nortti> clang looks interesting. Can it build a working linux system
21:42:22 <elliott> It could build a sorta-working kernel at one point, IIRC.
21:42:39 <elliott> But nothing except gcc and icc can build a fully-functional kernel, IIRC, and I believe icc requires patches.
21:45:44 <zzo38> GCC can compile to some targets which clang doesn't have. I asked them to add those (and other) targets to LLVM but they didn't do so.
21:51:15 <ion> http://www.dianaleewhatley.com/Inside-RDA-1024x768.jpg http://www.dianaleewhatley.com/whatwallworks.htm
21:53:22 <elliott> ion: FINALLY a decent wallpaper.
21:53:29 <elliott> http://www.dianaleewhatley.com/bubble-v2-1024x768.jpg
21:53:48 <elliott> http://www.dianaleewhatley.com/Ghost09-Blue.jpg jesus christ
21:54:25 <ion> No, that’s Richard Dean Anderson as well.
21:55:28 <olsner> someone likes richard dean anderson
21:57:14 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Better than Ghost09-Blue.jpg?
21:58:20 <olsner> oh, so when your nick was Friendship, that was a reference to Friendship is Magic?
21:58:20 <ion> I must admit that’s pretty good.
21:58:48 <olsner> spotting my little pony references is not what I do best
21:59:11 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: nortti).
21:59:12 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: OK, how about blending that with that optical illusion thing, that horrible two-colour tile thing, and Ghost09-Blue.jpg.
21:59:34 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: The optical illusion isn't very blendable with other things.
21:59:52 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I see, I see, we have a quitter.
22:03:29 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: As recompense, here is me as a pony: http://ompldr.org/vZGZ1NQ
22:05:28 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: That's worse than the picture of your foot.
22:08:45 <olsner> how can a pony be worse than a foot?
22:11:37 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Where is the old Gmail theme. :(
22:12:31 -!- Ngevd has joined.
22:14:01 -!- impomatic has joined.
22:15:25 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined.
22:15:25 -!- Madoka-Kaname has quit (Changing host).
22:15:25 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined.
22:15:57 <elliott> impomatic: haven't seen you around in a while
22:15:58 -!- Ngevd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:17:12 <impomatic> Now I'm back to pester people about Programming Games :-P
22:17:32 <RocketJSquirrel> impomatic: You're only allowed to if you make it to top three in the BFJoust hill.
22:18:27 <elliott> impomatic: Uhh... what happened since you were last here... I took over hosting the wiki, and... Gregor became RocketJSquirrel and won the IOCCC, and that's about it.
22:18:58 <elliott> (Also, ais523 considers BF Joust a solved game now, although you might have been around for that.)
22:19:20 <RocketJSquirrel> I may switch back to Gregor at some point, probably soonish.
22:20:39 <olsner> I think it would feel weird to use my name as my IRC nick
22:20:48 <elliott> Wait, your name isn't olsner?
22:21:22 <zzo38> The WHOIS request says "salparot" in the real names field
22:22:36 <zzo38> Actually a lot of thing happened, not only that
22:23:13 <olsner> hmm, dunno if I can fix that, you are not entirely free to choose your name here... and olsner is used as a surname, which might be an obstacle
22:24:08 <olsner> but at least it's not offensive
22:24:41 <olsner> besides, I don't want to change my name to olsner
22:24:51 <impomatic> Is the FYB hill broken? report.txt is empty.
22:25:29 <elliott> impomatic: FYB is solved, yes.
22:25:38 <elliott> Someone came in here and completely broke it in like 2009, IIRC.
22:25:41 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel might remember better.
22:25:59 <zzo38> A lot of things happened; not only me, but also you
22:26:07 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> A lot of things happened; not only me, but also you
22:26:16 <HackEgo> 839) <zzo38> A lot of things happened; not only me, but also you
22:26:57 <EgoBot> Use: !fyb <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/fyb/
22:27:05 <RocketJSquirrel> !fyb why_is_the_hill_broken http://codu.org/eso/fyb/in_egobot/logicex-2.fyb
22:27:12 <EgoBot> Score for RocketJSquirrel_why_is_the_hill_broken: 32.7
22:28:37 <Madoka-Kaname> @ sets the data pointer to the instruction pointer
22:28:41 <elliott> Wait, was it Madoka-Kaname who broke it?
22:29:28 <elliott> No, I mean "broke" as in "solved".
22:29:29 <zzo38> Please tell me if you have any computer game to qualify for The CGA Collection.
22:29:33 <elliott> Like you break a cryptographic hash.
22:29:48 <Madoka-Kaname> I looked through the source code and noticed @ does dp=ip :x
22:30:29 <zzo38> And files for Internet Quiz Engine
22:30:32 <Madoka-Kaname> Which means you can plant :@@+!; over all the other program's commit instructions
22:30:34 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14357
22:31:21 <itidus21> zzo38: 20mb hdd buried somewhere
22:31:26 <RocketJSquirrel> It's extremely impractical to place '@'s in the opponent's code.
22:31:26 <olsner> is it im/possible to break bfjoust?
22:31:29 <Madoka-Kaname> elliott, http://codu.org/eso/fyb/in_egobot/Lymia_evil.fyb
22:31:31 <zzo38> O, and what else happened, if you defect?
22:31:52 <zzo38> itidus21: What is this 20mb hdd?
22:32:02 <RocketJSquirrel> I don't really recall how FYB is broken, but that it is, and I don't really care X-D
22:32:39 <zzo38> itidus21: Still tell me what you have (even if you cannot find the actual programs)
22:32:52 <Madoka-Kaname> RocketJSquirrel, you can very reliably make a program that will almost guaranteed win against a certain targeted program.
22:33:08 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: Uh... that's it?
22:33:14 <elliott> Because I'm pretty certain that's true of BF Joust, too.
22:33:15 <itidus21> i made a pong game fixed to 6 angles.. NE,E,SE,NW,W,SW
22:34:10 <Madoka-Kaname> It's not 'broken' but, you can set the data pointer to the instruction pointer.
22:34:14 <itidus21> i made a text based bomberman once in 320x200x256 or whatever res it was
22:34:37 <itidus21> it also had toggle-able gates for some reason
22:34:40 <RocketJSquirrel> Right, that allows faster-than-light travel in the data pointer.
22:35:02 <itidus21> i forget what the ai could do... if it could only follow you or if it could itself drop bombs
22:35:46 <zzo38> I think 320x200x256 is SCREEN 13
22:36:21 <zzo38> Tell me if you find it anyways
22:36:27 <itidus21> i made a simple maze thing where it has up to 3 black and white wireframe doors displayed and you select one of them.. and go from room to room
22:36:54 <itidus21> zzo38: no i can't :P buried as in either trashed or full of cobwebs
22:37:03 <Madoka-Kaname> !fyb lololol @@:[>++!];@@:[>++!];@@:[>++!];@@:[>++!];@@:[>++!];@@:[>++!];@@:[>++!];@@:[>++!];@@:[>++!];@@[{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!];>[{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!];***
22:37:12 <EgoBot> Score for Madoka-Kaname_lololol: 13.8
22:37:14 <zzo38> O, well, OK. Then don't find it.
22:37:26 <itidus21> im just telling you some of my early qbasic exploits
22:37:34 <Madoka-Kaname> !fyb lololol @@:[>++!];@@:[>++!];@@:[>++!];@@:[>++!];@@:[>++!];@@:[>++!];@@:[>++!];@@:[>++!];@@:[>++!];@@:[>++!];@@:[>++!];@@:[>++!];@@:[>++!];@@:[>++!];@@:[>++!];@@:[>++!];@@:[>++!];@@:[>++!];@@:[>++!];@@[{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!];>[{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!];***
22:37:53 <EgoBot> Score for Madoka-Kaname_lololol: 10.5
22:38:06 <itidus21> umm.. i did a simple gradius style thing where a triangle thing shoots at circles with line segments.. no powerups or any such things
22:39:18 <itidus21> i was trying to do a mario style thing with ascii blocks but never got very far
22:39:22 <zzo38> Another program of interest which will be accepted in The CGA Collection would be a Free (as in FSF) program in C which can compile the QBASIC programs which are part of The CGA Collection on multiple target platforms. Other than that, all programs must be DOS games using SCREEN 0 or SCREEN 1, 40x25 text, using only feature of IBM Color Graphics Adapter, must have short documentation in plain ASCII text, be public domain, have source-codes available, and fit o
22:39:38 <zzo38> Additional levels for the existing games are also acceptable.
22:40:46 <itidus21> zzo38: i think i only liked screen 13 for the way it made text nice and large and blocky..
22:41:05 <itidus21> the bombermany thing in question wasnt really very colourful to be honest
22:41:46 <impomatic> Thanks, didn't read the spec properly!
22:42:08 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
22:42:21 <zzo38> All games submitted must compile using QuickBasic Extended, even if a Free compiler is included as well (in which case, both compilers must work on the program).
22:42:23 <elliott> slowpoke's still at the top, I see.
22:42:35 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: You should make a new warrior. C'moooon.
22:42:46 <itidus21> zzo38: also there was a game i called weeder, which was a 5x5 thing.. you had to collect these text weeds.. and avoid an invisible hole
22:43:11 <itidus21> i was so deluded at the time i imagined myself selling extra levels
22:43:21 <Madoka-Kaname> I wonder if BFJoust is easy to do with a proper evolutionary algorithm.
22:43:27 <zzo38> itidus21: You could also use SCREEN 0 with WIDTH 40, 25 if you are only using a 40x25 text grid with no more than 16 colors; I suggest using it if it will work for your program
22:45:03 <itidus21> zzo38: well.. i have nothing to show really.. but yeah thats what i got up to in qbasic all those years ago
22:45:53 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: C'mooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooon. (Pronounced "k-moon".)
22:46:02 <zzo38> Have you seen The CGA Collection? Fell free to make additional levels and even modifications to the programs if you want to; everything in there is public domain
22:46:15 <itidus21> i find the uhhh.. procedural languages kind of obstructive to making games to be honest
22:46:28 <itidus21> i learned to think programming with qbasic
22:46:40 <itidus21> exactly what dijkstra says not to do
22:47:08 <EgoBot> Score for Madoka-Kaname_hi: 20.9
22:47:08 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_dumb: 24.7
22:47:08 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_dumb: 24.7
22:49:59 <itidus21> zzo38: ah i wasn't so bad before i went insane
22:50:06 <impomatic> Is there any way to see the FYB scoreboard?
22:53:25 <elliott> "There were already 96 screenshot requests for esolangs.org today." Uhhhhhhhhh...
22:58:51 <EgoBot> Score for Madoka-Kaname_stupid: 7.8
22:59:00 <EgoBot> Score for Madoka-Kaname_stupid: 12.3
22:59:15 <EgoBot> Score for Madoka-Kaname_stupid: 0.0
22:59:23 <EgoBot> Score for Madoka-Kaname_stupid: 8.2
22:59:45 <EgoBot> Score for Madoka-Kaname_stupid: 8.2
23:03:39 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
23:04:50 <zzo38> itidus21: I find QBASIC is not bad for making these computer games, though.
23:08:24 <calamari> "description of score calculation"... lies
23:09:39 <calamari> more like "incomplete description of score calculation omitting vital details"
23:10:20 <itidus21> zzo38: i don't think the more serious languages ever had games in mind..
23:10:30 <itidus21> basic kinda slips through as dumb but useful
23:10:45 <itidus21> not to say basic was made for games :-s
23:12:39 <zzo38> The format of CGACOLL.DOC is plain text wrapped at 75 columns, so if you send a game program to include then you should also send a CGACOLL.DOC entry.
23:12:51 <calamari> just needs a good compiler, like any other lang
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23:15:41 <itidus21> it's surprising to me how slow interpreters are
23:15:44 <zzo38> calamari: There is FreeBASIC, but for my purposes it has too many differences to QBASIC; also, it is not written in C, and doesn't easily compile to some other systems as far as I can tell
23:16:15 <itidus21> the interpretation process just doesn't seem that costly in theory
23:16:22 <calamari> zzo38: microsoft actually did a decent job on their old ms-dos basic compilers
23:17:09 <zzo38> calamari: Yes they did, but they are proprietary and are only for DOS computers.
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23:17:48 <itidus21> zzo38: have you ever seen those usborne books about basic?
23:18:05 <zzo38> But I do use them to make up these computer games. However I would like to have the Free one as well, which, in addition to freedom, is also not only for DOS computers, but can still compile the games in CGA Collection.
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23:19:01 <calamari> zzo38: nothing stopping you from writing it :)
23:19:06 <itidus21> ahh.. well as you probably know many many books have been published about basic. these books though had characteristic childishness with drawings of robots used to express how the pc works
23:19:22 <zzo38> calamari: Yes I may do something like that, possibly
23:19:35 <zzo38> itidus21: I have seen some of those.
23:19:44 <itidus21> heres a sample cover http://ia600805.us.archive.org/zipview.php?zip=/19/items/olcovers554/olcovers554-L.zip&file=5540311-L.jpg
23:19:55 <calamari> zzo38: use lex/yacc (or similar) and make your life easier hehe
23:20:30 <itidus21> ive downloaded quite a few of them.. but eventually i found my white whale.. one of the books that i can't find
23:20:32 <zzo38> calamari: I have never needed those before.
23:20:46 <itidus21> i like the whole 'basic' culture
23:20:56 <calamari> zzo38: of course they're not needed, but they make it easier
23:21:32 <calamari> I got the "basic techniques and utilities" book eventually.. had it on half.com for years
23:28:51 <itidus21> even c with allegro was fine for games on dos
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23:30:30 <itidus21> but.. directx/win32 api is just absurd.. soul-destroying
23:32:21 <zzo38> I agree DirectX/Win32 is pretty bad, one thing is it is very specific to Windows
23:34:19 <itidus21> to think perchance to imagine what might have been in windows stead
23:34:37 <elliott> http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/utils/mandelbrot/ Wow @ bf+cpp
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00:11:04 <elliott> http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/topBANNER-blog-940.jpg This is the best image ever.
00:12:11 <ion> elliott: It seems to lack Richard Dean Anderson.
00:14:24 <elliott> If you can't see him, you're not worthy.
00:14:35 <ion> elliott: Ah, indeed. He did have a mullet earlier.
00:15:04 <ion> http://rdanderson.com/macgyver/home/home.jpg
00:15:26 <ion> That’s clearly him in the picture.
00:15:33 <itidus21> it occurs to me there isn't any programming language named after him
00:15:41 <itidus21> i havent checked but i don't believe i have to
00:16:01 <elliott> Sgeo|web: Apologise at once.
00:16:03 <zzo38> Do you know where to get The PROFESSIONAL Pokemon Sticker Book?
00:16:24 <Sgeo|web> I thought monqy quit quitting hi
00:16:38 <Sgeo|web> Or did monqy quit quitting quitting hi?
00:18:31 <ion> let fixApply f x = fix f where _ = f x in quit `fixApply` hi
00:18:54 <monqy> I quit quitting quitting hi.
00:19:05 <itidus21> a macgyver function would probably find a mapping between any set of objects and destruction of an enemy lair
00:19:27 <shachaf> monqy: Quit quitting quitting quitting hi.
00:19:44 <zzo38> Just quit everything if you do not know what else to quit
00:19:48 <monqy> shachaf: did you quit qutting hi?
00:19:54 <zzo38> Unless you would rather quit smoking instead
00:19:55 <ion> I heard hi was quitting monqy.
00:19:56 <shachaf> monqy: No, I'm still quitting hi.
00:20:11 <elliott> ion: I circled Richard Dean Anderson to make it easier to see: ...but then imgur didn't want to upload it, so just imagine a red freehand circle around Obama.
00:20:53 <zzo38> I win at Pokemon Card due to opponent's cards being resisted to most of my cards, and due to the opponent picking up too many cards.
00:21:02 <elliott> kmc: I got mosh's prediction for the first time!
00:21:08 <ion> elliott: You might want to ask for your money back from imgur.
00:21:50 <zzo38> To give an analogy with chess, let's say, that if you have two pawn in front of each other with nothing next to it diagonally, then they are stuck and neither one can move.
00:22:05 <itidus21> if (fortknox.macgyver(toothpaste,comb,singlet) == EASILY_ACCESSIBLE) printf("Macgyver method works.\n");
00:22:41 <Sgeo|web> monqy has quit quitting quitting quittting hi.
00:22:56 <monqy> Sgeo|web: you deserved that hi
00:22:57 <ion> MacGyver doesn’t have access to that many items of syntactic noise, he has manage with the bare minimum.
00:23:01 <monqy> elliott: it was deserved
00:23:16 <shachaf> monqy: do I deserve hi :'(
00:23:19 <itidus21> ion: you're right... sorry im relatively new to it
00:23:26 <itidus21> still getting used to the concept
00:23:30 <monqy> shachaf: did you try telling someone about monad tutorials in ##crawl
00:23:34 <zzo38> Then make up the text adventure game involving it
00:23:39 <monqy> shachaf: that's a pretty good way to get a free hi
00:23:56 <monqy> 17:20:50 < Sgeo|web> ebarrett: any relation to monadic burritos/
00:23:59 <ion> A text adventure involving monqy quitting^n hi?
00:24:14 <zzo38> ion: Involving anything, not necessarily that.
00:24:15 <shachaf> 17:24 < monqy> shachaf: hi
00:24:27 <elliott> <monqy> shachaf: did you try telling someone about monad tutorials in ##crawl
00:24:37 <elliott> i actually just dug my nails into my face right now
00:24:43 <elliott> you can't see it but i did
00:24:44 <ion> Dungeon Crawl is like monad tutorials.
00:24:44 <zzo38> Did you try telling someone about monad tutorials tutorials?
00:24:54 <shachaf> 17:24 < shachaf> monqy: monad = burrito
00:25:26 <Sgeo|web> elliott: it was an analogous situation
00:25:53 -!- elliott has left ("FUCK YOU ALL").
00:26:02 <zzo38> Are monad tutorials like burritos?
00:26:22 <zzo38> And then, what will comonad tutorials be like, if there is any one?
00:27:21 <zzo38> Play Pokemon Card, please.
00:27:30 <zzo38> Let's see if you won.
00:28:03 <Sgeo|web> I attempted to actually explain the tutorial situation
00:28:13 <Sgeo|web> Didn't really attempt to explain monads
00:29:04 <zzo38> shachaf: Each player seven cards, and then you can put face-down active and bench Basic Pokemon cards. And then after both players has done so, turn it face-up. Whoever's turn it is, draw a card (if you can't, you lose instantly). Play energy card and other card from your hand, and optionally attack. If your pokemon card is knocked out by damage, discard it, opponent picks up one side card. If you have no side card you win. If you have no card in play, you los
00:29:04 <ion> http://youtu.be/hhczJ0dHWC0
00:29:20 <zzo38> shachaf: OK, now you know how?
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00:30:01 <zzo38> A left out a few details.
00:30:07 <ion> I’m tempted to break a combo.
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00:30:38 <elliott> if the ops in here won't kick for breaking an oko chain then there's no justice in the fuckin world
00:32:18 <ion> fion, felliott, fachaf
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00:33:30 <zzo38> More details are: After setup the cards face-down at the beginning of the game, take six more cards from your draw pile and set them aside (face-down). Also, only one energy card can be played per turn (or zero), but other card any number of times. If it is evolution card, then you can play it on top of another card as long as it has not just been played. Trainer card usually do as it says and is discarded, but some are not discarded immediately. You can also
00:35:11 <ion> You can also$
00:36:06 <zzo38> retreat before attack. To attack require energy, and if it says * then you can use any energy.
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00:36:42 <zzo38> And there are also a few other rules such as weak/resist and confusion and so on.
00:37:48 <zzo38> Do you know what is the purpose of the Imakuni?'s card? He has that card in his deck and one day he is going to use it.
00:47:48 <zzo38> OK, now let's play Pokemon Card.
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00:57:58 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Fri Apr 20 01:58:30
00:58:34 <zzo38> Once I wrote something I made a joke that Professor Oak was drunk when he said "discard your hand and then draw seven cards" because you do not have a hand to hold the pencil.
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01:02:47 <ion> @time nickserv
01:03:36 <lambdabot> Local time for ion is Fri Apr 20 04:03:35 2012
01:03:45 <elliott> ion: Can you leave? You're too Finnish.
01:04:13 <ion> I have always been here.
01:04:46 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least five of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
01:06:39 <elliott> Help answer whether this is not known, the policy question of recursive definitions can not think. To define such a function in the form once I suggest considering whether it be rewritten in a recursive form. To rewrite the recursive form seems to require a helper function.
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02:03:44 <elliott> OK, the icon on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Glass should look good for everyone now :P
02:04:49 <ion> Someone should make a fork of it called Ass.
02:06:56 <elliott> Apparently IE only supports data URIs since version 7. *sigh*
02:14:47 <Sgeo> elliott, what's this about data URIs? Is the checkmark an image now or something?
02:15:21 <pikhq> elliott: Worse, it's limited to 32k in IE 8.
02:15:46 <elliott> pikhq: Good thing my file is 466 bytes (unencoded).
02:15:53 <Sgeo> Was the checkmark looking horrible for anyone, or is the goal to make it look identical for everyone?
02:16:06 <elliott> Sgeo: It was looking horrible for everyone on Windows, for one.
02:16:49 <elliott> On Windows and for RocketJSquirrel the tick rendered as some ungodly aliased bitmap-looking thing.
02:16:57 <elliott> Like it had been scaled to an uneven size.
02:17:57 <elliott> cf. http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff508/Taneb/featuredarticleHUEG.png, http://ompldr.org/vZGZzcg
02:18:16 <elliott> I can't look at the latter without laughing.
02:21:17 <Sgeo> That's ridiculous
02:27:55 <ion> It’s a herp-derpy version of the check mark.
02:28:21 <RocketJSquirrel> I honestly didn't think it was supposed to be a check mark when I first saw it.
02:28:26 <RocketJSquirrel> I couldn't for the life of me figure out what it was supposed to be.
02:28:34 <monqy> it's the thought that countst
02:28:38 <monqy> thank you, question mark
02:28:42 <monqy> for the good thoughts
02:28:59 <monqy> check mark, I mean
02:29:19 <monqy> what's a question mark
02:29:33 <elliott> it's almost as much a question mark as it is a check mark
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02:30:28 <ion> My Firefox displays a boring conformist check mark. http://i.imgur.com/vFLUV.png
02:30:44 <monqy> mine does too, except it's chromium
02:31:09 <monqy> what happened to the special question mark :(
02:31:52 <elliott> what do you guys think of the tick icon in general btw since maharba doesn't like it
02:31:59 <elliott> as an icon for the featured language
02:32:15 <monqy> it's not stupid enough for me to love or hate it
02:32:19 <calamari> is it necessary for languages to be featured at all?
02:32:22 <RocketJSquirrel> There are probably better options, but I can't think of one, and there's nothing wrong with it.
02:32:23 <monqy> comfortable & boring
02:32:33 <ion> Use a swastika.
02:33:10 <elliott> calamari: Multiple people wanted it.
02:33:22 <ion> It’s the symbol of peace.
02:34:22 <ion> or http://loyalkng.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/sieg-fail-pic.jpg
02:35:16 <calamari> http://th03.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2012/050/7/2/pinkie_holding_a_check_mark_by_felix_kot-d4qaadr.png
02:40:43 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/no.html
02:41:05 <monqy> http://esolangs.org/yes.html
02:42:22 <elliott> monqy: i made no better now
02:43:23 <monqy> maybe if i refresh it again it will start getting bigger too
02:43:42 <monqy> oh no where did it go
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02:49:45 <elliott> "<MARQUEE ...> is often regarded as one of the "evil" tags, and that perception alone might be enough reason to not use it. However, used lightly and with taste (and understanding that it will never render everywhere), <MARQUEE ...> isn't such a bad tag. It can work well for announcements."
02:50:54 <Sgeo> Also: monqy: Do I suck at Crawl?
02:51:09 <monqy> I don't even have to look
02:51:21 <shachaf> monqy: I played Crawl yesterday.
02:53:14 <monqy> shachaf: well, did you enjoy it?
02:53:19 <monqy> shachaf: how far did you get !!
02:54:02 <shachaf> Which is another way of getting "to the end".
02:54:18 <elliott> did you die of something stupid and unforseeable
02:54:39 <shachaf> Once I was killed by a death yak.
02:54:43 <shachaf> That wasn't stupid and forseeable.
02:55:44 <elliott> monqy: why is <marquee> hard to get rigchte
02:56:14 <monqy> it's been so long since ive done web stufe
02:56:20 <monqy> "i agvoid it" - me
02:57:07 <monqy> you';re doing a very bad job of giving up hi
02:57:24 <shachaf> It was me quoting me saying hi.
02:57:41 <monqy> I take it you did not give up quoting yourself saying hi from before you gave up hi
02:57:50 <shachaf> No, why would I give that up?
02:58:10 <shachaf> monqy: Are *you* giving up quoting yourself saying hi from before you gave up hi?
02:58:25 <monqy> yes, but I may not have given up quoting you
02:58:47 <shachaf> That's the only way to be sure.
02:59:23 <monqy> i will know when the time is right
03:00:03 <monqy> i avoid saying it excessively, but i'll still say hi in certain cases
03:00:09 <elliott> why is http://esolangs.org/no.html buggy :(
03:00:26 <monqy> whoa look at that no go
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03:01:10 <elliott> when the yellow marquee moves all the way to the right
03:01:12 <elliott> it just appears completely again
03:01:15 <elliott> rather than scrolling in from the left
03:07:03 <elliott> monqy: http://esolangs.org/no.html
03:07:32 <ion> http://esolangs.org/hi.html
03:07:46 <RocketJSquirrel> I love how only one of the marquee tags is actually ended.
03:08:12 <elliott> monqy: http://esolangs.org/no.html
03:08:34 <ion> It wouldn’t be any more valid if that was changed.
03:08:45 <monqy> that's one wild no
03:08:48 <elliott> olsner: gah, now i want to script it like yours
03:09:33 <monqy> does no ever stop from getting better?
03:10:31 <ion> It would be even better if it was named http://esolangs.org/no
03:13:50 <elliott> ion: You just leaked the URL of my WIP no v2 :(
03:15:02 <elliott> <body bgcolor=<?= $n % 2 == 0 ? "yellow" : "blue" ?>>
03:15:07 <elliott> Why would this spit out "yellow" for n=9?
03:15:21 <elliott> register_globals isn't a thing. :p
03:16:32 <calamari> bright green & magenta is always a great color combo also ;)
03:16:52 <elliott> olsner: i ripped off ur art as a first start, sry: http://esolangs.org/no
03:19:33 <elliott> monqy: http://esolangs.org/no
03:20:06 <monqy> i tried that one time but it was just to much
03:20:12 <monqy> so i toned it down to 25
03:20:32 <monqy> ah yes good perfect
03:20:44 <ion> elliott: The marquees are quite small on Firefox. Perhaps use CSS or something to make them 100%-sized.
03:21:45 <elliott> so reload at your own risk
03:21:51 <ion> Judging from the 100%s everywhere in the HTML i assumed you wanted it to fill the window.
03:22:02 <elliott> monqy: try http://esolangs.org/no now
03:22:24 <monqy> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
03:22:41 <monqy> it's slowly killoing itself
03:23:36 <ion> Chromium’s memory use goes up at about 10 MB/s.
03:23:52 <ion> Now it’s stuck.
03:24:00 <ion> after reaching a gigabyte.
03:24:04 <monqy> great marquee efficiency
03:24:12 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/no deadliest yet
03:25:35 <elliott> how do you do elseif in php
03:26:49 <monqy> according to http://php.net/manual/en/control-structures.elseif.php it's either elseif or else if
03:27:01 <monqy> but only elseif if you're using colons???
03:27:37 <ion> PHP manages to make even that weird?
03:27:46 <ion> freaking elseif
03:28:07 <elliott> ok http://esolangs.org/no is hurting mybrowser
03:28:36 <elliott> ok i just got a horrible idea
03:28:41 <elliott> what if i used css3 rotations on the iframes
03:29:36 <ion> That sounds awesome.
03:29:38 <ion> http://unimaps.com/flags-europe/sweden-flag.gif
03:30:07 <elliott> monqy: http://esolangs.org/no
03:30:13 <elliott> sweet jesus it's beautiful
03:30:23 <ion> monqy: In the discussion, someone benchmarks “elseif” vs. “else if”. The former is faster.
03:30:39 <elliott> i think this one might actually be art
03:30:56 <elliott> it even has a moire pattern
03:31:23 <ion> elliott: nice
03:31:25 <monqy> and it's scrollable
03:31:31 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/no i made it better
03:31:48 <monqy> i like how mine was white but then it started becoming blue and yellow
03:31:51 <ion> Perhaps get rid of the scroll bar.
03:32:07 <elliott> oh my god it *is* scrollable
03:32:08 <monqy> the scroll bars are art
03:32:16 <ion> Of course it is.
03:32:17 <elliott> ion: try scrolling it with your mouse wheel
03:32:45 <elliott> ion: ok i removed the scrollbars to test
03:32:51 <elliott> pretty sure it's NOT AS GOOD
03:33:02 <elliott> also it fills up much more slowly
03:33:18 <monqy> on the plus side, ow my eyes
03:34:28 <ion> Perhaps add a bit of padding to make it fill up faster.
03:35:19 <elliott> i love how it ends up just flashing ominously
03:36:17 <elliott> i can animate this to rotate as it goes
03:38:07 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/no holy fucking shit
03:38:56 <monqy> it isnt doing anything for me :(
03:39:14 <elliott> i uh, think it was a failed experiment anywa
03:39:26 <monqy> chromium 18.0.1025.162
03:39:42 <monqy> (Developer Build 0 Linux)
03:39:46 <monqy> whatever that means
03:39:59 <monqy> leaving for a bit "bye"
03:45:53 <elliott> ion: http://esolangs.org/no. Let it load all the way, with your mouse out of the window.
03:46:41 <ion> Well done, sir.
03:47:00 * elliott wants to animate that transition.
03:47:21 <ion> CSS3 has that, too.
03:47:38 <shachaf> Someone in another channel did http://demoseen.com/windowpane/fl0wer.png.html today.
03:47:48 <shachaf> elliott can't see it because of a lack of WebGL.
03:48:01 <shachaf> But other people can telliott how he's missing out.
03:50:03 <ion> Nice, shachaf. Nachaf.
03:50:37 <ion> shachaf, nice. scheiß.
03:51:43 <ion> elliott: Too bad it’s not smooth enough on my computer.
03:51:50 <ion> Nice otherwise.
03:52:09 <shachaf> But the WebGL thing is smooth on your computer, right?
03:52:22 <shachaf> In other words, elliott is missing out by not having WebGL?
03:53:19 <ion> It’s quite smooth.
03:54:51 <elliott> ion: Perhaps this will be smooth? http://esolangs.org/no
03:56:39 <ion> elliott: If a small subset of the iframes is in transition simultaneously it’s smooth. If i move the mouse out of the window quickly the framerate drops very much.
03:58:54 <elliott> Hmm, I'm unable to produce the first iframe-scrollbar one. :(
03:59:00 <elliott> ion: I don't suppose you have that one still open in a tab?
03:59:26 <ion> git log :-P
03:59:59 <elliott> Artists don't use version control.
04:00:05 <elliott> I'm editing the file directly on the server.
04:00:13 <ion> Not ed? :-(
04:00:19 <ion> It’s the standard editor.
04:00:50 <elliott> I'm an artist. I don't need your "standards".
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04:15:29 <elliott> ion: http://esolangs.org/no
04:17:20 <elliott> ion: I think that's the best one yet.
04:20:41 <ion> elliott: How about @-webkit-keyframes rot { from { -webkit-transform: rotate(36deg); } to { -webkit-transform: rotate(396deg); } } iframe { -webkit-animation: rot 10s infinite; }
04:22:10 <ion> Perhaps change that 10s to like 120s
04:22:54 <ion> And add -webkit-animation-timing-function: linear;
04:25:51 <ion> Yeah. And it’s slllllooooow
04:25:59 <ion> I mean, the frame rate is very low.
04:26:49 <ion> How about just, like, 15 iframes?
04:27:38 <ion> I think one can drop all the -webkit- prefixes from the CSS and it will work in all modern browsers.
04:27:53 <elliott> But some of the jitter is due to marquee timing, FWIW.
04:28:14 <ion> http://css3.bradshawenterprises.com/animations/ lists some browser versions for the CSS stuff without vendor prefixes.
04:28:50 <ion> How about getting rid of marquee and using CSS animations for that, too?
04:28:59 <elliott> Okay. You get to write the CSS for that, though. :p
04:29:13 <elliott> BTW, I think the linear timing function made the animation worse.
04:29:37 <elliott> ion: There's a CSS3 marquee module, IIRc.
04:29:41 <elliott> Dunno if anything supports it.
04:38:17 <quintopia> hard problem: find two binary strings of 2n bits such that for all bitwise rotations of one, they differ in exactly n bits, AND neither string has rotational symmetry (aka a full rotation is required before original string is recovered)
04:38:54 <elliott> quintopia: Have you seen our BEAUTIFUL FEATURED LANGUAGE ICON?
04:48:18 <ion> elliott: I wonder if this works? https://gist.github.com/2426076
04:48:22 <elliott> data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAABUAAAAVCAMAAACeyVWkAAAAzFBMVEUAgAAAgAcAgA8BgAECgQIDgQMEggQHgAAHgwcHhycHizcPgAAPgwAPi0cQiBARiBEWixYXgwAXixcXl1cfiy8fn3cvq48vq58xmDEymTI1mjU3iwc/iwc/nz9AoEBBoEFCoUJDoUNHt5dXy8dnmx9/v3+AwICBwIGCwYKDwYOHoyeH4+eQyJCRyJGntz+n6++v16+v6++v7++w2LCx2LG3u0fH49/Pz1/Q6NDX23fX+/ff34ff34/f9/fv87fv///387///+f//+////+7G1+ZAAAAwUlEQVQYGV3BiUKCQABF0WubrWA7aGVk2tBeWE1WWr7//6eGiSH1HOQNB+cx8dmgkIccmxKkVg6SzAozriQhGebdSciu
04:48:22 <elliott> scAKtak1Lr5egFQU/DuafO7iFOTU9kfjDqWcjGDj4ecSL6NFpdHTPX9i1qkcTt63CFo4m08fB8/fJ1QiMpyd0fR1ek2QkeMs3UhvTYKcgtKxxh1qBWpT2tumlgjZVRZYIRnmGQlJZpkZt5KQYxOCxMpB3rDfjYhO+4/yfgFjmiGoaKjJJAAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==
04:48:28 <ion> elliott: Whoops. A moment.
04:48:36 <calamari> no looks pretty cool on my phone with the fractal thing going
04:48:46 <ion> elliott: Update4d.
04:48:54 <elliott> Hmm, where does 70% come from?
04:49:06 <elliott> calamari: You loaded no on your phone and you still have a phone?
04:49:06 <ion> Just a random value for testing.
04:49:21 <ion> Added a missing semicolon.
04:49:40 <elliott> Semicolons are optional in css.
04:49:55 <ion> elliott: Removed a */ that shouldn’t have been there.
04:49:59 <elliott> calamari: Well, it kind of uses a lot of CPU and RAM.
04:50:10 <elliott> ion: http://esolangs.org/no
04:50:12 <calamari> I think I can see my battery meter decreasing in real time tho (kidding)
04:50:26 <shachaf> Why do people play "music" in public places?
04:50:36 <elliott> ion: Seems to mar but not rot.
04:50:41 <shachaf> (It's not really music because it has drums in the background.)
04:50:54 <ion> elliott: Alright, makes sense: both try to use the transform property. Let’s see.
04:51:13 <calamari> lets see what the htc dream makes of it
04:51:39 <elliott> calamari: It's been changed.
04:52:27 <ion> elliott: Oh, also remove the marquee element. :-)
04:52:51 <elliott> Now it doesn't work at all. :(
04:53:11 <ion> Alright, let’s investigate.
04:53:57 <ion> How about if you change the 70% to e.g. 500px and -70% to -500px?
04:54:53 <elliott> ion: Are you sure this prefixless stuff works yet?
04:55:12 <elliott> "Unknown property name" --inspector
04:55:18 <ion> That seems like the culprit.
04:55:27 <calamari> anyone have a copy of the old one?
04:55:33 <elliott> calamari: <elliott> calamari: It's been changed.
04:55:33 <elliott> <elliott> Come back later ;)
04:55:40 <elliott> We're busy reconstructing a less broken version of the old one :P
04:55:46 <elliott> A copy would be difficult, since it requires 100 HTML pages.
04:56:08 <dbelange> #@&:%%000000000%%:&@# RAINBOWS ARE GOD'S WAY OF LICKING DICK
04:56:17 <ion> elliott: Perhaps now https://gist.github.com/2426076
04:56:21 <kmc> employee of the month
04:57:11 <kmc> http://www.asciiartfarts.com/20120418.html?via=rss
04:57:21 <shachaf> kmc: Are you in Los Angeles now?
04:57:53 <calamari> the rainbow stripes aren't supposed to be vertical ;)
04:59:26 <elliott> ion: The scrollbar is a bit annoying. But I guess that can be fixed.
04:59:32 <elliott> ion: BTW, "alternate" isn't right for the marquee.
04:59:36 <zzo38> Who is winning? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_14/pokemoncard1.png
04:59:40 <elliott> Marquees scroll off the edge of the screen and return on the other side, not bounce.
05:00:18 <zzo38> shachaf: Not unless you play.
05:00:20 <ion> That can be done. I just thought this would be pretty. :-P
05:00:34 <ion> Especially since there’s always content on the screen this way.
05:00:49 <calamari> htc dream's analysis of the page: no
05:00:51 <ion> Also, the marquee element has behavior=alternate.
05:01:14 <calamari> oh there it goes with the new version
05:01:17 <kmc> shachaf: ish. Pasadena.
05:01:35 <calamari> looks like they hadn't implemented rotation yet
05:01:37 <kmc> or as i like to call it, "sea panda"
05:01:38 <ion> http://www.mountaindragon.com/html/marquee.htm
05:02:29 <zzo38> coppro: Maybe you know who wins?
05:02:54 <elliott> ion: Any ideas about how to get the rotation?
05:03:17 <ion> elliott: How about this, with <div><iframe …></iframe></div>? https://gist.github.com/2426076
05:03:37 <elliott> Closing tags? We don't need closing tags.
05:03:55 <ion> Feel free to do whatever you want. :-P
05:04:37 <elliott> Oh, the div isn't big enough.
05:04:56 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: P.OFF (short for Post Office, in case you don't know)).
05:05:08 <elliott> Yeah, the alternate marquee is kinda boring, since it just cycles.
05:05:18 -!- asiekierka has quit (Quit: Wychodzi).
05:05:49 <ion> Try switching the -webkit-animation attributes between the div and the iframe.
05:05:50 <elliott> Kinda breaks down in an ugly way after a while
05:07:02 <calamari> hmm I must not understand top.. it seems to be claiming that the browser is using 114.3% of memory
05:07:15 <ion> To get typical marquee behavior, use -webkit-animation: mar 8s linear infinite; (or some amount of seconds), and change the percentages to 100% and -100% i think.
05:08:25 <ion> If every iframe had slightly different animation durations, that might result in an interesting effect.
05:08:45 <elliott> I like how this seems to be more intensive than the marquee version.
05:09:15 <ion> Perhaps use a linear function of the “n” parameter.
05:09:23 <ion> 8 seconds plus n/20
05:09:28 <elliott> ion: Fixed a stupid bug, refresh
05:11:38 -!- oerjan has joined.
05:12:22 <calamari> starts off promising, then it's just a polygon rotating
05:14:25 <calamari> it's basically a square speech bubble still
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05:15:04 <ion> elliott: That could be implemented as a single HTML page, too. :-P
05:15:12 <calamari> how many htm pages did that one take?
05:15:39 <monqy> i have to select it to see anything happeneing otherwise it's all black :(
05:16:09 <monqy> am i doing something wrong :(
05:16:10 <elliott> monqy: yes im fiddling with it
05:16:56 <ion> OTOH, the 100-page iframe hack has some insane-kluge value.
05:18:56 <monqy> now its all white :(
05:19:17 <elliott> ion: I like how this went from "fun hacks with 90s HTML" to "fun hacks with advanced CSS3 and also using an iframe for no reason".
05:19:29 <monqy> it stopped loading and still i have to select it to see it :(
05:19:34 <elliott> monqy: try loading new tab???
05:19:35 <ion> elliott: A per-page varying marquee animation time, pleeze! :-)
05:19:40 <elliott> you might need ctrl+f5 or so
05:19:44 <elliott> ion: once monqy sees this one !!!
05:19:47 <shachaf> monqy: can i load new tbabB!?????!!
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05:20:09 <elliott> shachaf: http://esolangs.org/no
05:20:20 <elliott> ion: I also like how there's a "no" at the bottom of those 100 pages.
05:20:23 <elliott> That nobody will ever see.
05:20:25 <oerjan> dbelange: i see you have been spamming in the logs. please do not do that.
05:20:42 <shachaf> elliott told me you were supposed to spam in here.
05:20:47 <monqy> it ddoesnt work :(
05:21:08 <elliott> oerjan: no!! don't respond to shachaf's his!! it is a slippery slope
05:21:12 <elliott> a slippery slope to despair
05:21:23 <elliott> on the page you have loaded
05:22:17 <monqy> http://sprunge.us/eXHU
05:23:14 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
05:23:35 <elliott> monqy: what chrome version?
05:23:43 <elliott> oerjan: btw, do not click that /no link under any circumstance
05:24:17 <monqy> about chromium says its Chromium 18.0.1025.162 (Developer Build 0 Linux)
05:24:36 <elliott> i'm really not sure what is up >:?
05:24:38 <elliott> do you have weird settings
05:24:41 <elliott> like default background etc
05:24:55 <elliott> monqy: can you go to /no?n=99 and tell me what the body background is set to in the css
05:24:58 <elliott> oerjan: http://esolangs.org/no
05:25:04 <monqy> i have default background i think ?? its white background--ok
05:25:12 <monqy> oh one thing to notice is
05:25:27 <monqy> when initally loading /no i see a flash of black square but then it dies
05:25:45 <shachaf> monqy: Did you see the fl0wer?
05:25:54 <monqy> n?=99 makes it black and i see a flash of white square
05:26:03 <elliott> monqy: does it flash multiple times?
05:26:17 <elliott> can you try quitting and reopening browser??? im confuse
05:26:53 <monqy> ?n=2 fails but ?n=1 works
05:27:06 <monqy> but then theres only one thing
05:27:19 <monqy> ?n=0 works too of course but
05:27:40 <elliott> ion: Oh, hm, http://esolangs.org/no?n=1 is confusing.
05:27:43 <elliott> The box looks smaller than it should be.
05:27:51 <monqy> for me the box looks really big ??
05:28:06 <ion> elliott: CSS is such a pretty thing. http://hpaste.org/raw/67314
05:28:10 <monqy> i can see the spinny white box
05:28:23 <monqy> it's about as big as my browser window
05:28:39 <elliott> monqy: yes but look at the proportions of it
05:28:50 <monqy> i cant it's moving too fast
05:28:52 <monqy> and spinning a bit
05:28:59 <elliott> monqy: It shouldn't be *that* fast.
05:29:06 <monqy> and there's a small "no" in one of the corners
05:29:07 <elliott> ion: Am I supposed to do something with that diff:
05:29:13 <monqy> i'm bad at proportions :(
05:29:17 <elliott> Oh, it's other-browser compatibility.
05:29:20 <elliott> Who cares about other-browser?
05:30:05 <monqy> usually i can't see the other corner because it's cut off
05:30:07 <Sgeo> Why is elliott linking to a white rectanngle thigy
05:30:16 <elliott> Sgeo: http://esolangs.org/no
05:30:20 <elliott> click that in recent chrome
05:30:25 <monqy> sg "late to the party" eo
05:31:43 <elliott> oerjan: (the reason I tell you not to click it is that it will probably crash your browser.)
05:33:15 <oerjan> elliott: i had a hunch :P
05:33:21 <elliott> ion: Hmm. Changing the rotation to 1s seems to have done nothing: http://esolangs.org/no
05:33:27 <elliott> Does that mean the rotation animation isn't actually working?
05:33:48 <monqy> the rotation seems just fine but nesting kills it
05:33:58 <ion> elliott: … huh. It *is* rotating, though.
05:34:16 <elliott> ion: ...for some reason it still shows as 120s in my inspector.
05:34:36 <ion> elliott: Oh! You have nested CSS comments which don’t actually work. The first */ will end the comment.
05:35:19 <monqy> every time someone says hi i feel a pang of guilt
05:35:21 <ion> <css> I’m out of glue to sniff. Do you have any?
05:35:41 <ion> IT’S OVER NINE THOUSAND
05:35:42 <shachaf> monqy: remember that time I told the dcss channel about monads
05:35:52 <monqy> shachaf: sgeo started it
05:35:59 <monqy> shachaf: he gets the credit
05:36:10 <shachaf> monqy: I don't need to get credit.
05:36:13 <Sgeo> I didn't say much about monads
05:36:14 <shachaf> monqy: I just want to get a hi. :-(
05:36:17 <Sgeo> Just monad tutorials
05:36:18 <monqy> elliott: its speedy for me on n=1 but n=2 and greaters all broken still :(
05:36:30 <elliott> monqy: What size is your Chrome window?
05:36:51 <ion> elliott: The audience demands a varying marquee speed. (8 + n/20)s might be a good start.
05:36:54 <shachaf> monqy: Just say "full screen"
05:37:09 <Sgeo> Why do I find Haskell easier to think in than CL?
05:37:10 <calamari> I miss that recursive one .. ah well :)
05:37:32 <Sgeo> Then again, Haskell had a built-in function for what I wanted to do
05:37:36 <elliott> calamari: If you mean the scrollbar one, I can recreate it later.
05:37:45 <shachaf> unsafeCoerce# is such a good function
05:38:06 <calamari> well on my phone (since firefox is too lame on my desktop), it was basically making a spiral of triangles
05:38:13 <monqy> elliott: ok uh i think the page portion is 989x949
05:38:15 <elliott> ion: It becomes a messy circle too quickly.
05:38:33 <elliott> monqy: Try it full-screened.
05:38:47 <shachaf> how many moqnys does it take to change a lightblub
05:39:02 <ion> elliott: n/100?
05:39:15 <calamari> so it might have looked different for a real browser
05:39:26 <monqy> elliott: all that changed is the spinny square is more rectangley now. it still doesn't work on n>1
05:39:44 <monqy> oh and being big makes it jerkier
05:39:54 <dbelange> #@&:%%000000000%%:&@# RAINBOWS ARE GOD'S WAY OF LICKING DICK
05:40:00 <ion> monqy: TWSS
05:41:03 <elliott> shachaf: Shut the fuck up with the "hi X" already.
05:41:13 <ion> elliott: hi X
05:41:27 -!- zzo38 has joined.
05:41:32 <ion> zzo38: hi X
05:41:40 <zzo38> ion: What X is that?
05:42:07 <shachaf> zzo38: Are you coming to BayHac?
05:42:13 <shachaf> monqy: Are you coming to BayHac? It's this weekend!
05:42:23 <monqy> what's this weekend
05:42:27 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't think so. What and where is BayHac?
05:42:34 <ion> monqy: He simply mistyped “GayHac”.
05:42:36 <shachaf> zzo38: Bay Area Haskell Hackathon. Bay Area.
05:42:37 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
05:42:42 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*dbelange@*.csclub.uwaterloo.ca.
05:42:42 -!- oerjan has kicked dbelange dbelange.
05:42:55 <shachaf> oerjan: Kick me while you're at it!
05:42:56 <zzo38> oerjan: Can you give a proper reason instead?
05:42:57 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
05:43:09 <shachaf> zzo38: dbelange was spamming.
05:43:13 <oerjan> zzo38: bah i can but i always forget
05:43:20 <elliott> oerjan: i would suggest dbelange*!*@*
05:43:28 <oerjan> zzo38: he spammed, and after i gave him a warning even
05:43:31 <shachaf> oerjan: i would suggest *!*@*
05:43:35 <elliott> oerjan: he specifically pinged you before spamming it again.
05:43:46 <elliott> i suggest that ban be of the indefinite sort.
05:43:51 <shachaf> Remember the thing where "*.*" finds files that don't have a "." in them?
05:43:54 <zzo38> oerjan: But still, you should specify the reason in the KICK message otherwise it can be unclear
05:44:10 <zzo38> shachaf: That is in DOS. In DOS, all filenames have "." in them.
05:44:18 <shachaf> zzo38: But in Windows too.
05:44:22 <oerjan> zzo38: i know, i just never remember to do so
05:44:34 <ion> shachaf: Remember the thing where a file your browser happened to download simply being named “something.exe” makes it executable?
05:44:40 <ion> Good old times.
05:44:49 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
05:44:50 <shachaf> ion: What's wrong with that?
05:44:56 <shachaf> +x is a pointless part of UNIX permissions.
05:44:56 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b dbelange*!*@*.
05:45:20 <monqy> i like how chromium warns me when i download .exe files
05:45:22 <elliott> oerjan: you left the old ban there, btw
05:45:24 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*dbelange@*.csclub.uwaterloo.ca.
05:45:25 <zzo38> shachaf: I think +x is not pointless, it is useful thing
05:45:36 <ion> Now the completely unrelated dbelangeSmith is banned, too.
05:45:38 <elliott> oerjan: You should kick shachaf so he shuts up about it. :(
05:45:47 -!- oerjan has kicked shachaf shachaf.
05:45:57 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
05:46:13 <elliott> We were only, like, 50 kicks away from a perfect channel.
05:47:09 <zzo38> Please look at the Pokemon Card see if you win
05:47:48 <elliott> oerjan: I'm disappointed he didn't even paste a different flood the second time.
05:48:10 <elliott> monqy: Did you try /no full screen?
05:48:19 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Fri Apr 20 06:48:51
05:48:21 <monqy> how do i full screen
05:48:41 <elliott> Move it to an unused workspace/
05:48:43 <zzo38> monqy: It depend the client program you use to view it
05:48:45 <elliott> I just mean filling your screen.
05:48:47 <monqy> elliott: yeah i did that
05:49:07 <zzo38> I think in Firefox it is F11
05:49:16 <monqy> 22:39:26 < monqy> elliott: all that changed is the spinny square is more rectangley now. it still doesn't work on n>1
05:49:24 <monqy> probably got lost since it was right before the flood
05:49:37 <elliott> i have no idea what could be wrong
05:49:39 <ion> monqy: Screenshot?
05:50:05 <elliott> Sgeo: Does /no work in technicolour for you?
05:50:11 <elliott> We need more Chrome users, man.
05:50:12 <monqy> n=1 is just boring old spinny rectangle how it should be, and n=2 is just white, and n=3 is just black etc
05:50:56 <Sgeo> elliott, does black and white count as technicolor?
05:52:37 <elliott> ion: Help, what's wrong with http://esolangs.org/no.
05:52:42 <Sgeo> I don't think it does what it's supposed to
05:52:44 <oerjan> elliott: so you think there should be about 9 people left?
05:52:53 <ion> elliott: :-D
05:52:54 <Sgeo> It's not squares in squares merely rotating
05:53:03 <elliott> oerjan: Something like that, yes.
05:53:06 <elliott> Sgeo: It's not meant to be.
05:53:17 <elliott> ion: Apparently every number is even.
05:53:48 <elliott> ion: Okay, I fixed that part.
05:53:52 <elliott> ion: Now why doesn't it look the same? :(
05:54:07 <monqy> oooh it's doing something
05:54:15 <elliott> monqy: Yes, I changed it lots.
05:54:19 <monqy> but it's kind of crazy
05:54:20 <elliott> It doesn't use iframes now but it's broken
05:54:43 <elliott> This would be good were it smoother.
05:55:04 <monqy> it looks pretty smooth to me, but maybe I have high tolerance
05:55:23 <elliott> monqy: Huh? It's ridiculously skippy here.
05:55:36 <monqy> definitely not ridiculously skippy here
05:57:34 <calamari> seems to suddenly jump tho, maybe an android bug?
05:57:50 <elliott> <elliott> monqy: Huh? It's ridiculously skippy here.
05:58:00 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
05:58:05 <calamari> or maybe just an optical illusion from it being larger than my screen
05:58:47 <monqy> maybe I'm seeing something different from you guys whihc happens to not be skippy?? i dunno. or maybe my graphics processing is really great but I doubt that
05:58:47 <ion> elliott: A start: div { width: 500px; height: 500px; overflow: hidden; }
06:00:39 <ion> elliott: That makes it behave a bit better.
06:00:44 <pikhq> ion: "Best viewed on 800x600 screens"
06:00:57 <elliott> Now why doesn't it work with 100%?
06:01:10 <monqy> wow the new version is ridiculously skippy
06:01:12 <monqy> what did you do D:
06:01:25 <monqy> and the new version isn't anything like the old version visually
06:02:00 <elliott> <ion> elliott: A start: div { width: 500px; height: 500px; overflow: hidden; }
06:02:00 <elliott> <ion> elliott: That makes it behave a bit better.
06:02:00 <elliott> <pikhq> ion: "Best viewed on 800x600 screens"
06:02:00 <elliott> <elliott> Now why doesn't it work with 100%?
06:02:04 <elliott> monqy: We're working on it.
06:03:07 <ion> elliott: div{width:100%;height:100%;overflow:hidden;position:absolute}
06:03:56 <elliott> ion: Okay. Why does that look totally different to the iframe version? :(
06:04:18 <ion> Yeah. I’m not sure what to do about that.
06:04:27 <elliott> Meh, restored the iframe version.
06:04:31 <monqy> it's really laggy and sometimes it vanishes
06:04:52 <monqy> (w/r/t the one right before restore)
06:05:55 <elliott> ion: http://esolangs.org/no
06:06:37 <monqy> beautiful, but it's still vanished on n>1 :(
06:07:18 <elliott> monqy: How big is your screen?
06:07:40 <monqy> i think the viewable page portion is 989x949
06:08:05 <monqy> making it smaller or bigger doesn't help
06:08:16 <ion> elliott: whee
06:08:47 <elliott> monqy: I mean, how big is your screen?
06:09:49 <zzo38> Which is the channel to play Pokemon Card at?
06:09:53 <ion> monqy: Which browser version do you have?
06:10:06 <monqy> about chromium says its Chromium 18.0.1025.162 (Developer Build 0 Linux)
06:10:43 <ion> elliott: One could add color transitions!
06:11:02 <ion> elliott: A tunnel effect, anyone?
06:11:10 <elliott> ion: TOO LATE ALREADY ADVERTISED IT IN -BLAH
06:11:27 <ion> elliott: Add the same color cycle to every page, but use an n-based offset.
06:12:43 <ion> elliott: One can add an initial delay between the timing function and the iteration count in “animation:”
06:12:51 <ion> The default being 0s
06:13:05 <elliott> Are you suggesting I do that to the non-iframe version?
06:13:15 <ion> No, the iframe version.
06:13:16 <elliott> Man, I totally promoted this in -blah at the WRONG TIME.
06:13:26 <elliott> ion: OK, will give it a go in a minute.
06:14:14 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Fri Apr 20 07:14:46
06:15:02 <lambdabot> Local time for ion is Fri Apr 20 09:15:01 2012
06:15:11 <ion> Maybe continue watching mitx-6.002 lectures.
06:15:42 <ion> After time well spent on an important iframe and css project
06:16:02 <elliott> ion: 5s delay added to http://esolangs.org/no
06:16:47 <monqy> then showing up more
06:17:01 <elliott> ion: OK, so colour transition code.
06:17:52 <ion> elliott: I meant, add a new animation for the body background color. Create an infinite color cycle (using whatever colors you want). Use body { -webkit-animation: color-cycle 10s linear Xs infinite; } where X is e.g. n/20.
06:18:05 <elliott> What are the best colours?
06:18:55 <ion> How’s this for starters: @-webkit-keyframes color-cycle { 0% { background: #000; } 50% { background: #fff; } 100% { background: #000; } }
06:20:10 <monqy> so far it's working but i can only see one square fading in and out
06:21:06 <elliott> ion: I think this might be... a failed experiment.
06:22:40 <ion> elliott: Ok, now perhaps change the “10s” to “5s” and use, say, @-webkit-keyframes color-cycle { 0% { background: #000; } 10% { background: #00f; } 20% { background: #0ff; } 30% { background: #0f0; } 40% { background: #ff0; } 50% { background: #f00; } 60% { background: #f0f; } 70% { background: #fff; } 80% { background: #00f }; 90% { background: #f00; } 100% { background: #000; } }
06:22:52 <elliott> I like how you said that right after I removed it.
06:23:01 <ion> elliott: I think it will look like a moving tunnel if we tweak the time values.
06:25:23 <ion> Now all i see is a white page.
06:25:48 <monqy> ?n=1 is good though
06:25:53 <monqy> a "no" zips by quickly
06:26:15 <ion> Perhaps the keyframes thing needs to be defined before -webkit-animation refers to it.
06:27:09 <elliott> The old one was like that too.
06:27:21 <elliott> Are you sure you have no syntax errors?
06:27:49 <ion> Ah, there seems to be a misplaced ; just before “90%”.
06:29:02 <elliott> Removed, but I think that's valid.
06:29:58 <ion> n/100 for the delay perhaps
06:30:07 <elliott> Delay is the one after animation name right>?
06:30:16 <ion> after linear
06:30:27 <monqy> I just see a nice full-screen colourchange
06:30:29 <elliott> (You realise that the top page is 100, right?)
06:30:29 <monqy> but it's beautiful
06:30:51 <ion> Now the problem is that the starting times are affected by the iframe loading times. :-\
06:30:54 <monqy> ?n=1 also has a spinny square
06:31:15 <monqy> (the square is also colourechang)
06:31:31 <elliott> mmm http://esolangs.org/no?n=1
06:32:28 <ion> Random experimentation: @-webkit-keyframe color-cycle { 0% { background: #000; } 40% { background: #00f; } 50% { background: #fff; } 60% { background: #0f0; } 100% { background: #000; } }
06:33:25 <elliott> It's called "col" now. Get w/ the project.
06:34:15 <ion> Duh, now i typed “keyframe” instead of “keyframes”.
06:34:44 <ion> Why doesn’t IRC have CSS syntax checking?
06:36:15 <ion> (100-n)/100
06:36:54 <ion> And the top page could have a static background, e.g. #000
06:37:31 <ion> The delay seems to be irrelevant, the loading time is too significant.
06:37:43 <elliott> Could artificially super-lengthen the delay to give it time to settle
06:38:09 <ion> I think the only solution would be to use JavaScript to synchronize them based on the system clock. :-P
06:41:15 <ion> Perhaps add another white flash to the sequence: @-webkit-keyframes col { 0% { background: #fff; } 10% { background: #000; } 40% { background: #00f; } 50% { background: #fff; } 60% { background: #f00; } 90% { background: #000; } 100% { background: #fff; } }
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07:25:55 <Sgeo> elliott? Sleeping? Really?
07:26:35 <monqy> it's funny because
07:40:12 <zzo38> I added more I made the file in which I recorded the dreams; both myself and others
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08:01:01 <impomatic> !fyb busy_doing_nothing +[>[+]+++++++++++++++]
08:01:48 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_busy_doing_nothing: 0.0
08:02:17 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_test2: 3.9
08:09:41 <zzo38> Can you play the barometer game?
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08:17:34 <zzo38> I have some text adventure game in my computer involving the use of a barometer to measurea building.
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10:19:07 <impomatic> !fyb simplest_example? +[>[+]++++++++++++++!]
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10:44:33 <impomatic> !fyb example2 +[{>}[+]++++++++++++++!]
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13:55:40 <Foggalong> Just checking this has connected correctly for future use
13:56:10 <nortti> you can /query lambdabot and then say @ping
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13:59:36 <nortti> ja siitä piti ilmoittaa koska ....?
14:00:52 <oklopol> vihdoin ollaan samaa mielt
14:04:58 <oklopol> i would just like to inform everyone that me and nortti have unanimously decided that the only allowed language on this channel is finnish
14:05:53 <oklopol> i think. it's a very ambiguous language.
14:05:54 <nortti> actually he decided that himself for that message
14:06:13 <oklopol> i have no idea what we were talking about then
14:07:36 <oklopol> so i hear that it's unknown whether the ternary square-free subshift is transitive
14:08:32 <nortti> oklopol:"unbelievable" nortti:"what" oklopol:"almost everything" nortti:"and you need to inform about that because ...?" oklopol:"��?" nortti:"interesting" oklopol:"yes" "at last we agree"
14:09:12 <oklopol> well you totally took that out of context.
14:09:39 <nortti> what did I took out of context?
14:11:18 <nortti> I don't understand how I took that out of context
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14:14:03 <nortti> that conversation is conversation between me and oklopol after Foggalong had left in english
14:14:05 <oklopol> fizzie: are you a phd yet?
14:16:56 <oklopol> or alternatively the president of finland
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14:18:14 <nortti> oklopol: I don't think that fizzie is Sauli Niinistö
14:19:38 <oklopol> i don't have time to check the president situation daily, i'm a busy man
14:19:39 <fizzie> No; I should be one at the end of 2013, is the schedule. (I mean, not the president.)
14:20:02 <oklopol> then i'm in a bit of a hurry if i want to beat you
14:20:59 <nortti> getting elected as president in 2013 would require some skills because next presidental election is in 2018
14:21:13 <oklopol> has your erdos number increased? or decreased, but that's significantly less interesting.
14:22:08 <oklopol> nortti: fizzie has done some impressive stuff in befunge, which is essentially the two-dimensional version of finnish politics.
14:22:18 <RocketJSquirrel> `addquote <oklopol> nortti: fizzie has done some impressive stuff in befunge, which is essentially the two-dimensional version of finnish politics.
14:22:26 <HackEgo> 840) <oklopol> nortti: fizzie has done some impressive stuff in befunge, which is essentially the two-dimensional version of finnish politics.
14:22:50 <oklopol> nortti: yeah that's english for erds
14:23:13 <nortti> oklopol: I don't see the connection between befunge and finnish politics
14:25:32 <oklopol> well i'm talking about the hausdorff dimension, if that helps
14:32:37 <oklopol> fizzie: please answer, this is very important
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14:33:38 <nortti> tai no täällä on niin paljon suomalaisia että moi
14:34:07 <oklopol> you have a very familiar name
14:34:52 <oklopol> you're the guy who hates thx right
14:35:20 <oklopol> i read everything you've ever written some years ago
14:35:21 <Lumpio-> I don't think I even have that .txt file online anymore though, I eventually gave up with it.
14:35:38 <oklopol> but i don't think we've ever talked
14:35:59 <nortti> I know him from #ohjelmointiputka at irnet
14:37:23 <oklopol> back when i liked programming
14:37:32 <fizzie> oklopol: I don't think I have any/many new coauthors, so probably not.
14:37:57 <oklopol> i have now given someone an erdos number, but i haven't decreased my own
14:39:13 <oklopol> i write all my papers with the same coauthor or alone
14:40:29 <oklopol> well except the one obvious exception, because what i just said doesn't make much sense otherwise.
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15:17:19 -!- RocketJSquirrel has set topic: Gregor Richards' IOCCC submission marvels crowds, ushers in new era for JIT design. "Wait, what's a JIT, anyway?" say judges | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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15:22:38 <itidus21> they're a system for hello worlding anywhere kovin fast
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15:26:39 <itidus21> apparently i used wrong word though
15:29:05 <itidus21> wiki says.. kovin is often with a negation verb
15:29:41 <itidus21> so maybe if i said "not kovin slowly"
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15:44:02 <hagb4rd> mouth and eyes and heart all bleed and run in..thickening streams of greed as bit by bit it..starts the need to just let go my party piece
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15:44:02 <hagb4rd> ~ * ~ > http://homepage.alice.de/hagbard/disintegration.php < ~ * ~
15:45:19 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: <3: not found
15:47:29 <oerjan> oklopol: fix your client to use utf-8 okthxbye
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16:23:15 <HackEgo> Lumpio-: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
16:23:32 <Lumpio-> Hi, and thanks, I've actually read the wiki quite a few times already
16:23:53 <RocketJSquirrel> Just noticed nobody'd given you the proper #esoteric welcome
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16:24:06 <Lumpio-> Is there a secret handshake too?
16:24:24 <RocketJSquirrel> Yes, it involves praising Gregor Richards for his awesome IOCCC win.
16:24:39 <Lumpio-> Maybe a dance encoding of Brainfuck, you could use it to declare your name as well!
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16:26:49 <HackEgo> LUMPIO-: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
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16:27:15 <Lumpio-> ALSO MY HEARING IS QUITE FINE
16:27:23 <kmc> `WeLcOmE kmc
16:27:25 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: WeLcOmE: not found
16:27:30 * kmc disappoint
16:27:34 <Lumpio-> Aww, it doesn't do automatic LaMeRCaSe
16:28:00 -!- elliott has joined.
16:28:05 <elliott> as i was saying: good afternoon
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16:28:36 <RocketJSquirrel> `run echo -e '#!/bin/sh\necho "No lame-case for you."' > bin/WeLcOmE ; chmod 0755 bin/WeLcOmE
16:30:49 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Open this in a WebKit browser: http://esolangs.org/no
16:30:58 <elliott> Or did I already throw that at you...
16:31:15 <elliott> It doesn't work in Firefox.
16:31:18 <elliott> You're thinking of no.html.
16:31:40 <elliott> Uhh... possibly. Your phone might catch fire.
16:33:16 <elliott> At the bottom of all 100 iframes
16:33:19 <elliott> You can't technically see it.
16:33:49 <RocketJSquirrel> I'm amazed that my tablet was responsive enough to close that tab without issue.
16:33:56 <nortti> elliott: IFrame inside IFrame inside IFrame inside....
16:34:46 <nortti> and after all that clicking to get links2 display it there is text no
16:35:45 <elliott> It's... not really links2-optimised.
16:35:55 <nortti> I have to click IFrame link in links2 to see contents of that IFrame
16:36:27 <nortti> elliott: I don't think that any page is links2 optimised
16:36:57 <elliott> `addquote <elliott> It's... not really links2-optimised. <nortti> elliott: I don't think that any page is links2 optimised
16:36:59 <HackEgo> 841) <elliott> It's... not really links2-optimised. <nortti> elliott: I don't think that any page is links2 optimised
16:37:29 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.12790
16:37:40 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: since when was that a requirement?
16:38:08 <nortti> I like how that pastequotes script is just a one line hack
16:38:43 <nortti> `run cat `which pastefortunes`
16:38:46 <HackEgo> { for i in *; do fortune; echo '-----' ; done; } | paste
16:39:28 <oklopol> "oerjan oklopol: fix your client to use utf-8 okthxbye" no u
16:39:53 <elliott> `run cat `which pastequotes`
16:39:56 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ "$1" ]; then quote "$1"; else allquotes; fi | paste
16:39:59 <elliott> Same applies to pastequotes :P
16:41:25 <nortti> `run ls -l `which pastefortunes`
16:41:28 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 57 Apr 20 16:41 /hackenv/bin/pastefortunes
16:42:21 <HackEgo> cat: `which WELCOME`: No such file or directory
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16:42:31 <nortti> `run cat `which WELCOME`
16:42:34 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | perl -ne 'print uc($_)'
16:42:45 <nortti> `run cat `which welcome`
16:42:48 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome"; }
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16:49:56 <nortti> `run echo -e '#/bin/sh\necho -e "WeLcOmE tO tHe InTeRnAtIoNaL hUb FoR eSoTeRiC pRoGrAmMiNg LaNgUaGe dEsIgN aNd DePlOyMeNt! FoR mOrE iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK oUt OuR wIkI:\nHtTp://EsOlAnGs.OrG/wIkI/mAiN_pAgE"' > bin/WeLcOmE; chmod 0755 bin/WeLcOmE
16:49:58 <Patashu> I am trying to code a bot in mIRCscript
16:50:41 <nortti> `run echo -e '#/bin/sh\necho -e "$1: WeLcOmE tO tHe InTeRnAtIoNaL hUb FoR eSoTeRiC pRoGrAmMiNg LaNgUaGe dEsIgN aNd DePlOyMeNt! FoR mOrE iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK oUt OuR wIkI:\nHtTp://EsOlAnGs.OrG/wIkI/mAiN_pAgE"' > bin/WeLcOmE; chmod 0755 bin/WeLcOmE
16:51:00 <HackEgo> Patashu: WeLcOmE tO tHe InTeRnAtIoNaL hUb FoR eSoTeRiC pRoGrAmMiNg LaNgUaGe dEsIgN aNd DePlOyMeNt! FoR mOrE iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK oUt OuR wIkI: \ HtTp://EsOlAnGs.OrG/wIkI/mAiN_pAgE
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16:53:05 <elliott> Patashu: can't you try it on another client?
16:53:21 <Patashu> another client that supports mIRCscript
16:53:25 <Patashu> while (%highestentry > %entryno) {
16:53:29 <Patashu> why does this make mIRC disconnect
16:53:38 <elliott> a client that doesn't have the name Patashu
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16:54:21 <Patashu> if it does it one more time I'm going to give up and go to bed
16:54:44 <lambdabot> Local time for Patashu is Sat Apr 21 02:54:37 2012
16:54:53 <lambdabot> Local time for nortti is Fri Apr 20 19:54:58 2012
16:54:58 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Fri Apr 20 17:55:31
16:56:27 <nortti> http://www.cracked.com/article_19768_6-terrifying-childrens-cartoons-from-around-world.html
16:59:53 <itidus21> the Groke reminds me of a character in bubble bobble
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17:01:00 <itidus21> which i was just thinking about yesterday!
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17:07:11 <RocketJSquirrel> <nortti> http://www.cracked.com/article_19768_6-terrifying-childrens-cartoons-from-around-world.html // I'll take MLP:FiM, TYVM.
17:09:03 <ion> elliott: hi
17:10:57 <elliott> ion: what was that next one you wanted me to try?
17:10:59 <Ngevd> (btw, the time inbetween me joining the channel and me saying "Hello!" was caused by me falling asleep)
17:15:57 <ion> I was wondering whether it would look nice or totally suck if we added another white flash to the sequence. @-webkit-keyframes col { 0% { background: #fff; } 10% { background: #000; } 40% { background: #00f; } 50% { background: #fff; } 60% { background: #f00; } 90% { background: #000; } 100% { background: #fff; } }
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17:17:22 <ion> elliott: And adding copies of the styles with the other browser-specific vendor prefixes and the official CSS one would be nice.
17:17:51 <elliott> Yeah yeah, I'll write some PHP to do that later :P
17:17:56 <ion> ["", "-webkit-", "-moz-", "-ms-", "-o-"]
17:19:39 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/no I made it alternate because why not.
17:19:57 <ion> Also, how about changing the background color of the top-level page to static black?
17:20:18 <elliott> That's such a pain but OK :P
17:20:33 <ion> How about trying “ease” for the marquee once again?
17:21:01 <ion> alternate changes the effect a bit.
17:21:13 <elliott> Done all, and reverted the colours
17:21:35 <elliott> I think I messed up the border
17:21:43 <elliott> Yeah, ease is crappy because it just creates a huge black hole
17:22:03 <ion> I think the CSS might be broken.
17:22:33 <ion> It doesn’t do the marquee at all here.
17:22:54 <ion> That’s probably what causes the black hole in the middle.
17:23:05 <elliott> -webkit-animation: mar /*13*/8s linear infinite alternate; /*ease infinite alternate;*/
17:23:05 <elliott> -webkit-animation: rot 120s linear infinite;
17:23:11 <elliott> Wait, how did those get put in one rule?
17:23:35 <elliott> And added a 1px white border to iframes 'cuz why not
17:24:11 <elliott> Wow, I had no idea the internal geometry was this complex
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17:27:32 <ion> The current marquee animation keeps the thing outside the screen too much.
17:27:45 <elliott> I'll adjust the translate.
17:28:11 <elliott> Also, the ease is the wrong way.
17:28:18 <elliott> It goes slower at the edges, while IMO it should go slower in the middle.
17:30:19 <elliott> Bah, I'll have to use cubic-bezier to fix that.
17:30:30 <ion> Try changing ease to cubic-bezier(0,0.5,1,0.5)
17:31:11 <elliott> It would be nice to make the whole thing more square-shaped.
17:31:34 <elliott> Ugh, this one goes to circle mess too
17:31:46 <ion> Yeah, we’re getting to the same problem as with the black hole.
17:32:26 <elliott> Yeah, if you stay in one place too much, the hall of mirrors starts reflecting itself too much :P
17:32:37 <elliott> So I guess you have to be fast when there's a lot visible.
17:32:56 <ion> How about keeping the cubic-bezier thing but removing alternate and restoring the 100% translations?
17:34:26 <elliott> But it still degenerates, just slower.
17:35:11 <ion> Perhaps change the two 0.5s to 0.2 or something.
17:35:30 <ion> Oh, wait. That’s wrong.
17:35:35 <ion> 0,0.2,1,0.8
17:36:15 <elliott> Done; I'd just like to take a moment to marvel at how optimised WebKit's rendering engine must be to render this mess at any reasonable speed.
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17:38:34 <nortti> has anyone here ever used tomsrtbt?
17:40:28 <elliott> ion: Why is my mosh session all froze up. :(
17:46:27 <elliott> ion: http://esolangs.org/no Finally, something that actually freezes my browser.
17:47:39 <nortti> elliott: doesn't freeze my browser
17:48:38 <elliott> Because that's like saying your car never crashes because it can only go at 1 mph.
17:49:41 <ion> :-) The frame rate does get a bit low.
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17:51:28 <nortti> my other browser (hv3) also doesn't freeze
17:51:50 <nortti> and has support for ECMAScript
17:56:02 * itidus21 contemplates the correlation between hyperlinks and markup languages.
18:02:06 -!- lament has joined.
18:02:18 <lament> 〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜
18:02:18 <lambdabot> lament: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:02:59 <lament> does anyone wish to be banned
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18:04:10 -!- lament has set channel mode: +b *!*lament@184.71.170.*.
18:04:46 <elliott> clog, he hasn't said anything in years, must really hate the place
18:05:22 <lament> clog is the only one in this channel who really understands me
18:06:12 <itidus21> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.21645
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18:09:59 <lament> a surprisingly short list
18:10:21 <itidus21> technically many of those probably expired
18:10:40 <lament> such things never expire
18:11:05 <itidus21> and shachaf was quite specific that he wanted oerjan in particular to ban him
18:11:34 <elliott> lament: just /msg chanserv clear #esoteric users
18:11:39 <elliott> anyone who wants to be banned just won't come back
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18:13:00 <lament> perhaps they want to be banned but will still come back due to poor impulse control
18:13:04 -!- augur has joined.
18:13:54 <elliott> well, ban anyone who comes back then :)
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18:16:24 <elliott> Hi Ngevd! We just had some bans.
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18:18:52 <zzo38> Does clog being an op mean anything of use?
18:19:30 <elliott> zzo38: It could ban people. ...Very quietly.
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18:55:38 <zzo38> I can now say that I have written the advanced search form (accessible from the main menu) for Chess Variants.
18:57:57 <zzo38> Anyone playing Pokemon Card on here by now?
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19:08:00 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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19:18:51 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10222297/i-got-this-code-form-google-i-want-statement-wise-explanation-plz-help-me-if-an what a great question
19:20:15 <Lumpio-> There's not even any code there! D:
19:22:50 -!- boily has joined.
19:24:41 <elliott> anything with /* in it must be code
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19:34:53 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: No, it was deleted before I linked it.
19:35:12 <elliott> I wasn't expecting anybody to actually be able to read it :P
19:35:14 <impomatic> zzo38: I've just sold all my Pokemon Cards, apart from a few black star promos
19:35:53 <zzo38> impomatic: That is OK, you don't need any for what I am trying to ask about.
19:37:09 <zzo38> Do you know the first edition rules? I use these rules with a few variations having to do with resolving ties (I dislike the standard rules for resolving ties).
19:37:16 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Phantom_Hoover: http://ompldr.org/vZGc3ZA
19:38:03 <impomatic> I haven't played for about 10 years... I don't really remember.
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19:39:23 <zzo38> Such as, in this picture, what can you think about this situation and who do you think is winning? (I can supply card texts if you want, or answer any other questions about the rules of the game) http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_14/pokemoncard1.png
19:40:07 <zzo38> I do have another picture for later in the game too; if you make guesses about this one I will show you the next one too
19:40:37 <Lumpio-> ...that was deleted like yesterday
19:42:25 <zzo38> impomatic: In case you need reminded, there are three ways of winning the game: If you have picked up all of your side cards, you win. If you have no more cards in play, you lose. If you have no cards to draw at the beginning of your turn, you lose.
19:43:32 <Lumpio-> Why is that picture partially in Japanese and partially in English
19:44:11 <zzo38> Lumpio-: It is a translation patch which translates all the card texts to English and leaves the rest in Japanese.
19:44:40 <Lumpio-> I thought there was an official English translation of that
19:45:22 <zzo38> Well, this is the unofficial version.
19:46:15 <Lumpio-> At any rate I'd say the top player has an advantage.
19:46:35 <zzo38> Lumpio-: Why do you believe that? (Notice that the top player is confused.)
19:47:06 <elliott> They're not the only one [CANNED LAUGHTER]
19:47:23 <elliott> Imagine if you could actually put laughter in a can.
19:47:51 <Lumpio-> Actually I only now noticed the top player has way less cards left on their deck.
19:49:39 <zzo38> Lumpio-: Well, yes, there are many things to notice. Top player has already picked up one side card, they have two Stage 2 evolution cards, more cards in hand, more cards in trash. But also notice that the bottom player has HAUNTER [Lv17] which has a specal ability that attacks have a 50% chance not to affect it.
19:50:29 <Lumpio-> ...then again it also can't damage the kangaskhan
19:50:39 <zzo38> Lumpio-: Yes, that too.
19:51:22 <Lumpio-> But 1) one prize card taken 2) two level 2 pokemon on the bench (one has enough energy for a decent attack) 3) one more pokemon on the bench in total
19:51:33 <Lumpio-> 4) resistance against all current enemy pokemon attacks
19:51:58 <Lumpio-> Also I'd imagine he also has a good probability of having a good hand
19:52:40 <Lumpio-> Since I think he might've used a prof. oak
19:53:01 <Lumpio-> Which you usually use when you only have "bad" cards in your hand, and it should get you better ones
19:53:05 <Lumpio-> Then again I'm not an expert
19:53:08 <zzo38> OK. Who do you think is winning now (a later part of the game)? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_14/pokemoncardII.png
19:55:54 <zzo38> It is LUGIA [Lv55] it says right there. Its attack is 2+2*coin(2) damage.
20:00:54 <zzo38> After that, see if you can solve this puzzle game I made up: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/pokemon_card/puzzle.1
20:02:05 <zzo38> And this one too: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/pokemon_card/puzzle.2
20:05:38 <Lumpio-> Those 7+ energy on that charmander look suspicious
20:07:07 <zzo38> There are ten in total. And, yes, it is looking suspicious.
20:07:44 <zzo38> But there are uses for such a thing.
20:11:08 <Lumpio-> ...he's not trying to do the obvious and evolve that and then spam attacks is he
20:23:45 <lambdabot> Local time for nortti_ is Fri Apr 20 23:23:49 2012
20:23:51 <lambdabot> Local time for oklopol is Fri Apr 20 23:23:26 2012
20:25:52 <lambdabot> Local time for fizzie is Fri Apr 20 23:25:51 2012
20:25:55 <lambdabot> Local time for Deewiant is Fri Apr 20 23:25:54 2012
20:26:00 <lambdabot> Local time for atehwa is Fri Apr 20 23:25:58 2012
20:26:03 <lambdabot> Local time for ineiros is Fri Apr 20 23:26:02 2012
20:26:05 <lambdabot> Local time for ion is Fri Apr 20 23:26:05 2012
20:26:07 <lambdabot> Local time for Lumpio- is Fri Apr 20 23:26:07 2012
20:26:42 <Deewiant> oklopol: Your clock is off by about 25 seconds
20:26:51 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least five of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
20:27:04 <elliott> `learn Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least eight of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
20:27:54 <ion> > let co ('c':'o':xs) = xs; co xs = 'c':'o':xs in co "corun"
20:33:42 <zzo38> Lumpio-: That is one possibility, another possibility is the MR.FUJI to prevent from running out of cards; but actually he was just bluffing.
20:34:24 <zzo38> (The top player lost; he ran out of cards with nothing to save him)
20:35:09 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: You awful person.
20:37:53 <nortti_> I have been thinking about an esoteric programming language: it is string rewriting and I think it is at least a PDA. > copies char next to it in right side to next string, < copies char next to it in left side, x copies from both sides, - doesn't copy anything, [ and ] don't copy anything and work something like this ">["->"[" ">[ab"->"[ab" ">[ab]c"->"[ab]" ">]a"-> "a" ">[ab[c]d"->"[ab[c]"(and "]<"->"]" "ab]<"->"ab]" "c[ab]<"->"[ab]"
20:38:59 <Lumpio-> zzo38: Well he was doing pretty well in the first picture but eventually ran out of material I guess.
20:43:31 <zzo38> Lumpio-: Actually, even in the first picture I was thinking he was almost definitely losing. Which works if the bottom player (me) can defend, which partially involved not knocking out the opponent's cards because if that is done, he can switch more easily and attack; so this way gives him limited chances to switch.
20:43:58 <elliott> Lumpio-: By the way, are you from Helsinki? Statistics purposes.
20:44:40 <zzo38> Lumpio-: Can you solve either of the text-based puzzles?
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20:55:55 <Lumpio-> elliott: I'm in Lahti which is about 100km to the North of Helsinki
20:57:00 <Lumpio-> zzo38: I take it the solution would be the one that has the highest probability of winning? (including 100%)
20:57:39 <elliott> Lumpio-: Hmm. That probably counts as Helsinki.
20:58:25 <nortti_> how many people there were from either helsinki or hexham?
20:58:50 <elliott> Helsinki has, like, five, and Hexham only two. But we still win for density.
20:59:30 <fizzie> I don't think Lahti really counts if you ask a random Finn; I doubt many would count places like Järvenpää or Kerava either.
21:00:47 -!- nortti_ has changed nick to nortti.
21:00:53 <fizzie> There are two sort of "standard" extensions to Helsinki; the green and light-green bits of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Helsinki
21:00:58 <elliott> fizzie: Well, the thing is, if you guys get to count Lahti, not only does that raise your total population (and thus lower your density), but it means we get to count, say, Newcastle or Edinburgh too.
21:01:26 <itidus21> http://oi43.tinypic.com/111ig6b.jpg
21:02:26 <itidus21> for those who look "I know.. it's very droll.."
21:02:49 <zzo38> Lumpio-: But can you find anything at all with either of these two puzzles?
21:03:26 <Lumpio-> zzo38: Gimme a moment, the last time I played pokemon card games must've been 8 years ago...
21:04:28 <fizzie> "Commonly about eight more municipalities are considered to be part of Greater Helsinki, as they can be considered as commuter towns and exurbs of Helsinki. When Hyvinkää, Järvenpää, Kerava, Kirkkonummi, Nurmijärvi, Sipoo, Tuusula, and Vihti are included, the number of inhabitants rises to 1.2 million. -- Statistics Finland define the commuter belt of Helsinki (Helsingin ...
21:04:35 <fizzie> ... työssäkäyntialue, Helsingfors pendlingsområde) to include a total of 24 municipalities, with a land area of 7,359.80 km2 and a population of 1,431,108 as of 31 December 2007.[2][3] In addition to that, there are people from as far as Lahti and even Tampere commuting to Helsinki daily." It sort of sounds like even Stat. Fin. doesn't count Lahti, despite a few weirdoes commuting from ...
21:06:26 <elliott> Can we have Edinburgh anyway?
21:06:54 <elliott> fizzie: It's < 100 miles, you know!
21:07:13 <fizzie> I don't really have an onion how these esolanginess rankings go.
21:07:23 <Lumpio-> 1) Use gengar's power to move 1 damage from dark muck to porygon 2) Use gust of wind to switch in grimer 3) Retreat gengar, bring out hypno 4) Use dark mind, with bench damage to porygon
21:07:26 <elliott> (Admittedly 100 miles is quite a lot of Britain.)
21:07:49 <zzo38> Lumpio-: No; won't work. Notice that weak/resist is being ignored.
21:08:36 <Lumpio-> Well, switch the mime in then ┐(￣ー￣)┌
21:08:41 <fizzie> The screwiest thing: the "online shop" of the national train company is not open during the night (23:30--06:00). Because why should the Internet be open at night?
21:08:53 <elliott> fizzie: Hey, the gerbils have to sleep.
21:09:05 <zzo38> Lumpio-: That won't work either; there are two of them, so they cancel each other's weak/resist
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21:10:29 <Lumpio-> Well that's not very nice of you.
21:11:04 <zzo38> Not very nice of me? No, I just make the game to be not too easy.
21:15:16 <elliott> Sigh, I really need to install more fonts.
21:15:35 <elliott> FFE3 301C FFE3 just isn't a very appealing face.
21:18:28 <itidus21> i once made this trivial military sim game.. and my friend found a loophole.. and i was frustrated by that. game designing ain't easy
21:18:42 <itidus21> once real people start using your rules
21:20:58 <oklopol> Deewiant: i'm sure that's due to my gravitational field.
21:21:57 <impomatic> Fizzie: my internet banking is only open 9am to 5pm
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21:33:14 <RocketJSquirrel> <impomatic> Fizzie: my internet banking is only open 9am to 5pm lolwut
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21:37:11 <elliott> that was just a normal everyday greeting
21:37:31 <itidus21> Greetings monqy. Hahahahahaha!
21:40:18 <itidus21> i think probability of someone laughing at you after greeting you with the word greetings is signifigantly larger than that if they greet you with a more typical greeting
21:40:49 <ion> `pastelogs \<hi\>
21:41:04 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.16181
21:41:15 <ion> `pastelogs \bhi\b
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21:46:21 <elliott> I like how glogbackup decided to come back.
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21:47:48 <elliott> ion: I hope you're proud of yourself.
21:48:17 <ion> `pastelogs \bhi\b
21:48:30 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29077
21:49:05 <monqy> it's hell: the text file
21:49:18 <ion> Why doesn’t it paste the whole thing? :-(
21:49:35 <elliott> It would just time out if it did.
21:49:41 <elliott> Chromium thinks that page is in Catalan.
21:49:54 <elliott> 2003-03-22.txt:01:41:34: <lament> hi. It's rather quiet here, but you can always read the logs and reply to month-old conversations.
21:50:11 <elliott> lament predicted the art of logreading years before it was established.
21:50:41 * elliott is reading this as one continuous conversation.
21:50:55 <elliott> 2004-07-22.txt:22:58:23: <lament> the conversation, thinly spread over days and weeks, consists mostly of calamari_ saying "hi"
21:52:23 <itidus21> 2003-07-10.txt:06:13:54: <lament> It's a program that prints 'hi world', followed by a newline
21:55:06 <monqy> 00:26:48: <elliott> hi ettioll
21:55:06 <monqy> 00:26:52: <elliott> nice name actually
21:55:06 <monqy> 00:26:54: <ettioll> hi elliott
21:55:06 <monqy> 00:27:10: <elliott> hi
21:55:06 <monqy> 00:27:16: <ettioll> hi
21:55:08 <monqy> 00:28:40: <elliott> hi
21:55:11 <monqy> 00:28:49: <ettioll> hi
21:55:13 <monqy> 00:29:10: <monqy> hi
21:55:16 <monqy> 00:29:20: <ettioll> shut up, monqy
21:55:27 <zzo38> Lumpio-: Did you figure out the game now? You almost got it but not quite
22:03:16 <ion> elliott: You say that as it’s a normal kind of thing to do in that situation. :-P
22:04:07 <Sgeo> Lumpio-'s nick makes me think Lugonu now
22:04:39 <ion> <elliott> It would just time out if it did.
22:05:19 <elliott> ion: Oh! I meant the command would time out.
22:05:25 <elliott> Although that could happen too :P
22:06:02 <itidus21> http://oi40.tinypic.com/2wc31js.jpg
22:09:11 <itidus21> i seem to love screenshotting books i've never read
22:09:13 <monqy> Sgeo: oh dear, have you been talking in ##crawl again
22:09:26 <Sgeo> monqy, not Haskell stuff
22:09:46 <Sgeo> I think I like Crawl
22:09:59 <Sgeo> I can play it online without hurting my good NetHack game that's been there for years
22:11:46 * Sgeo was a worshipper of Trog
22:12:10 <elliott> Sgeo: how far is your "good nethack game" exactly
22:12:35 <Sgeo> elliott, not sure
22:13:11 <monqy> all you know about it is it's good?
22:13:54 <itidus21> maybe it's great and he doesn't realize it
22:15:26 <ion> I have an old unfinished game on one of the Crawl servers.
22:15:50 <Sgeo> elliott, I should log in
22:16:08 <zzo38> ion: Did they expire?
22:16:32 <Sgeo> I am on Dlvl 8
22:17:17 <ion> I have no idea. I hope not, perhaps i’ll finish it one day.
22:17:30 <ion> That is, die yet another stupid death.
22:17:42 <Sgeo> elliott, I'm not going to play now
22:18:02 <Sgeo> Why did I think I was doing well
22:18:16 <Sgeo> Oh, I think I'm in Minetown
22:18:21 <elliott> don't know how bad your average nethack game is
22:18:34 <elliott> but it must be only slightly better than mine if this is a many-years-old good-game
22:18:35 <monqy> is minetown doing well for sgeo
22:18:55 <Sgeo> I've been to Sokoban on several occasions
22:19:06 <Sgeo> And I think I typically do Mines after, I think?
22:23:09 <Sgeo> I did not, in fact, #quit
22:23:42 <monqy> "he already saved the game and in that way ended his playing session"
22:30:17 <quintopia> what is the most complete polyglot self-interpreter? (aka, for some set S, a P s.t. forall languages L in S, P is a valid L program that interprets L)
22:31:45 <zzo38> Lumpio-: In case you do not know the solution to this puzzle I can tell you, although you should try to figure it out yourself first (if you cannot, you can ask the the solution in case you want it).
22:34:08 <zzo38> I can also provide a hint if wanted.
22:35:31 <elliott> quintopia: Complete existing or possible?
22:35:53 <elliott> quintopia: I would suspect |S| < 4, and most likely = 2 or 1.
22:36:12 <elliott> quintopia: Actually, wait, that's easy.
22:36:20 <elliott> IIRC dbfi is portable to multiple EOF behaviours and bit widths.
22:36:22 <quintopia> what is the most complete multi-language interpreter
22:36:27 <elliott> Actually, I think it doesn't ever use under or overflow.
22:36:35 <elliott> So P = dbfi, |L| = \aleph_0
22:36:56 <elliott> dbfi only interprets 8-bit brainfuck on any host language.
22:37:09 <elliott> But you could pretty easily write a BF self-interpreter that matches the bitwidth of the host.
22:38:58 <quintopia> i was thinking of a program that ... as a C program interprets C, as a ruby program interprets ruby, as a bf program interprets bf, as a whitespace program interprets whitespace, etc.
22:39:18 <zzo38> I found the brainfuck interpreter in brainfuck which makes cells have twice as many bits as it is in the host
22:39:24 <elliott> You can easily write a program that as a BF_8 program interprets BF_8, as a BF_16 program interprets BF_16, etc.
22:39:26 <quintopia> i'm not sure how you're getting "infinite S"
22:39:27 <elliott> In fact, one of them might already exist.
22:39:35 <elliott> So |S| = \aleph_0 modulo S.M.O.P.
22:39:50 <elliott> It might help to define "language".
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22:40:09 <quintopia> "something that has its own wiki page somewhere"
22:40:35 <elliott> Consider a language family cheat(L) for all L, where cheat(L) has all instructions of L plus an additional instruction at some unlikely Unicode codepoint that is a self-interpreter.
22:40:58 <elliott> Then P = {that codepoint}, |S| = |all languages not using that codepoint|.
22:41:57 <itidus21> i know this isn't the best way to look at it but if you have the sources for multiple interpreters you could compile them all together into one which can determine if the input language matches any of it's available interpreters
22:43:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Where does the {true, false, filenotfound} thing come from originally anyway?
22:43:49 <quintopia> elliott: what is the best multi-interpreter written in any language?
22:44:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Some code that defined a boolean type that way.
22:44:37 <quintopia> elliott: most languages supported, runs as standalone app in linux
22:45:39 <Phantom_Hoover> (I thought it was from a .NET builtin for some reason.)
22:49:30 <itidus21> with these kind of questions i think it is possible to cheat the definition of program
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22:51:09 <itidus21> like.. if one was to take all the interpreters written in brainfuck.. would it be possible to add some code to them combining them all together.. i think it would
22:51:27 <elliott> If you're asking as a practical matter, then... a VM with a Linux distro on it. You phrased the question in a formal way, which didn't exactly indicate that.
22:52:04 <elliott> It's a very different question without the self-interpreter part, though.
22:53:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The context wasn't posted AFAIK, but I presume it was being used as a status return type.
22:53:35 <elliott> i.e. success, fail, or fail-because-of-the-external-reason-that-the-file-is-missing
22:53:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, I was just confused for a while because I thought I'd seen the origin before.
22:54:09 <Phantom_Hoover> And I assumed TDWTF was referencing that, not some unseen code.
22:54:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The origin was *posted* on TDWTF.
22:54:45 <elliott> The definition of the enum was a TDWTF submission.
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23:06:39 <nortti> how much of the c90 does c2bf support?
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23:11:27 <elliott> hi tzxn3 ion jix FireFly mtve
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23:27:09 <zzo38> http://esolangs.org/no does not freeze by browser but it does prevent some commands from working until it is closed and restarted.
23:28:13 <nortti_> zzo38: what browser are you using?
23:28:40 <zzo38> nortti_: Mozilla-based.
23:29:12 <nortti_> based on which version of gecko?
23:29:41 <zzo38> How do I check that?
23:30:38 <zzo38> Is there any file which tells you that, or a JavaScript command on the chrome windows which will tell you that?
23:31:08 <elliott> It's more likely to freeze on WebKit, where the animation actually runs :P
23:33:55 <ion> hi elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott
23:34:46 <zzo38> nortti_: Gecko/20090629
23:35:41 <zzo38> nortti_: Build identifier: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1pre) Gecko/20090629 Vonkeror/1.0
23:35:55 <zzo38> Most other people I have asked about the puzzle.1 have answered in the same way as Lumpio- and said to GUST OF WIND to activate opponent's DARK MUK [Lv25] and move one point of damage from that to PORYGON [Lv12]; but that doesn't work because weak/resistance is currently being ignored. So, they say, activate opponent's MR.MIME [Lv20], but that won't work either because there are two of them!
23:36:53 <nortti_> zzo38:it uses gecko 1.9.1 (Same as firefox 3.5)
23:38:15 <zzo38> Only one person has correctly solved both puzzles so far.
23:39:27 <Sgeo> How many people have solved at least one?
23:39:57 <zzo38> Sgeo: The same thing... only one person
23:42:30 <Lumpio-> (back) I don't suppose there's any way to use the itemfinder 666
23:43:05 <zzo38> Lumpio-: Do you want a hint?
23:43:37 <Sgeo> zzo38, it's Pokemon puzzles, right?
23:43:38 <zzo38> Yes. But not the first thing you do.
23:43:44 <Lumpio-> (I didn't actually spend that much time thinking, but my memory of the rules is a bit hazy)
23:44:49 <Sgeo> zzo38, I don't know much about Pokemon, sorry
23:45:09 <Lumpio-> I guess you need to somehow get one of your prize cards before your attack
23:45:17 <zzo38> Lumpio-: If you have any questions about the rules, you can ask.
23:45:27 <zzo38> Lumpio-: And can you see any way to do so?
23:45:29 <elliott> fizzie: Did you see the, err, incident earlier, by the way?
23:46:17 <zzo38> Would you like a hint? I have a hint I can provide if requested.
23:47:36 <Sgeo> Where are the puzzles?
23:48:03 <zzo38> Sgeo: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/pokemon_card/puzzle.1 and puzzle.2
23:50:10 * Sgeo sends the URLs to someone
23:50:53 <Sgeo> (I'm wondering if she could solve it, although she says it's been a while since doing Pokemon stuff)
23:51:00 <Lumpio-> Does weakness apply to the extra 1 damage that dark mind does?
23:51:27 <zzo38> Lumpio-: No. Weakness and resistance does not apply to damage to bench pokemon cards.
00:09:02 <zzo38> Have you figured out anything yet?
00:11:55 <zzo38> Do you think weakness applying to the extra damage would even help much?
00:14:03 <zzo38> Ensure you have the correct edition of the rules; the modern rules are different to the old ones. This puzzle is based on the old rules.
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00:18:58 <zzo38> (For example, I think in the modern rules you cannot retreat more than once per turn; in the old rules you can retreat as many times as you want, although a confused card may not attempt to retreat a second time if it failed the first time. Also in the old rules, resistance deducts 3 points of damage)
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00:46:36 <elliott> Lumpio-: You have failed initiation!
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02:11:22 * Sgeo wonders why monqy was on CDO rather than what I think is the more popular CAO
02:11:29 <Sgeo> Although I think CDO is easier to access
02:12:42 <monqy> what are you talking about?
02:15:47 <monqy> but I don't play crawl
02:16:03 <Sgeo> But you do watch me play on Crawl for some reason
02:17:01 <Sgeo> Eep, forgot I chose Sprint and not Zot Defense
02:17:07 <Sgeo> Not that I know what I'm doing either way
02:17:54 <Sgeo> monqy, feel free to laugh at me. And/or say hi.
02:18:09 <monqy> you do realize this is #esoteric, right?
02:18:27 <elliott_> monqy: can you play crawl; can i watch you play crawl
02:18:43 <monqy> you could watch me play crawl if i played crawl
02:18:58 <monqy> but i don't want to play crawl because i don't like crawl anymore :(
02:19:16 <monqy> I have some crawl automation stuff I want to do but not enough time right now
02:19:55 <elliott_> monqy: yeah but i could watch you suffer???
02:20:19 <Sgeo> monqy, I think I suck
02:20:38 <Sgeo> monqy, although I blame the class/race combo on that
02:20:49 <Sgeo> I've gotten further in that Sprint before
02:20:49 <monqy> elliott_: it's not an exciting pain :(
02:21:18 <Sgeo> elliott_, you can watch me be a buffoon
02:22:02 <monqy> ugh fine i'll edit my config to work and play crawl i guessssssssss
02:23:40 <monqy> ssh crawl.develz.org or something like that i guess
02:23:46 <quintopia> hey elliott_: is there a command line tool where i can give a name of an esoteric language and a program file as input and it will interpret the program file in that language?
02:23:54 <monqy> im not playing yet i have to edit my config first
02:24:01 <Sgeo> elliott_, telnet crawl.develz.org 345
02:25:08 <monqy> you'll probably have to do something to your TERM
02:25:25 <Sgeo> elliott_, monqy is Squarelos fwiw
02:25:27 <zzo38> On my computer I had idea, making "extensible-roguelike", in Haskell, based on the structures available in the extensible-data package. So you can anyone add new item/creature/area/game-variant-mode/spells simply add a file and then recompile
02:25:37 <elliott_> i know all monqy's crawl secrets
02:28:29 <elliott_> monqy: i have only played crawl once by the way
02:31:13 <monqy> spr-svn is dungeon sprint it's like crawl but smaller and less random and things happen faster??
02:34:24 <monqy> i play the german version of crawl
02:37:06 <elliott_> `addquote <elliott_> (help why are german) <monqy> i play the german version of crawl <elliott_> i
02:37:09 <HackEgo> 842) <elliott_> (help why are german) <monqy> i play the german version of crawl <elliott_> i
02:37:12 <elliott_> isn't very good as presented there
02:37:17 <elliott_> but i need to capture the moment
02:37:33 <monqy> ok let's try this again
02:38:06 <monqy> oh nuts I forgot I had my scripts configured for diving
02:38:12 <monqy> and they should be exploring instead
02:38:32 <elliott_> hire you to explain what's going on
02:38:49 <monqy> xom polymorphed something into a severely out of depth monster
02:38:55 <monqy> after i accidentally dove a bunch
02:39:12 <elliott_> my impression of crawl as arbitrarily and randomly difficult is
02:39:14 <zzo38> For 7HRL I made up the KING game. It is relatively simple but still an interesting game.
02:39:28 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott.
02:39:42 <monqy> elliott: to be fair, i'm playing on the arbitrarily and randomly difficult setting
02:40:06 <elliott> is that the german version
02:40:19 <elliott> extra difficulty, extra german
02:41:07 <elliott> i hate to tell you this but i don't think this is really german
02:41:16 <monqy> that's my script at work
02:41:19 <monqy> i need to make it faster
02:41:24 <monqy> (making it faster)
02:41:28 <monqy> im just hitting spacebar
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02:41:46 <elliott> Sgeo i finally understand how you feel when on the receiving end of monqy
02:43:24 <elliott> monqy: do you really just hit space (and nothing else) im just
02:44:23 <monqy> sometimes i hit other keys but
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02:44:46 <zzo38> I have now selected the flaw and feat for this experience level of the Dungeons&Dragons game.
02:44:48 <monqy> but i have space bound to a ridiculous lua macro
02:44:51 <RocketJSquirrel> <elliott> Sgeo i finally understand how you feel when on the receiving end of monqy // hahaha context is for losers
02:45:13 <elliott> monqy: is this like TAEB for crawl or
02:45:48 <elliott> does crawl really have a faux-german setting
02:47:09 <monqy> im going as fast as i can :(
02:48:31 <Sgeo> elliott, Xom is a god known for randomness
02:48:43 <Sgeo> It's pretty hard to accidentally start worshiping Xom
02:48:56 <elliott> is worshiping different to worshipping
02:49:15 <Sgeo> The spell-check thing I'm using likes worshiping but not worshipping
02:49:59 <elliott> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/worshiping bloody americans
02:52:02 <elliott> monqy: how did you find this place
02:52:11 <monqy> I forget how I found the wiki
02:52:46 <Sgeo> elliott, also, I wasn't watching monqy die
02:52:54 <Sgeo> My thing paused at the monqy errors
02:53:15 <monqy> Sgeo: xom polymorphed something (i didn't catch what) into a shapeshifter, and then a yellow wasp, on d:3
02:53:55 <elliott> Sgeo: all you missed was uh
02:53:57 <elliott> monqy going really really fast
02:54:03 <Sgeo> I wasn't familiar enough with Crawl to process that
02:55:17 <Sgeo> monqy, there's a monqy on the server apparently
02:55:29 <monqy> Sgeo: that's my other account
02:55:48 <monqy> squarelos is actually public
02:56:01 <elliott> does that mean i can see the lua macros
02:56:11 <elliott> it would spoil the mystery
02:56:12 <monqy> but I made the squarelos account and I'm pretty much the only person who plays it
02:56:16 <monqy> anyone can see anyone else's macros
02:56:22 <monqy> but yeah mystery and they're ugly
02:56:25 <elliott> im imagining an 8,000 line monstrosity with no intelligble variable names (<-- DONT SPOIL ME)
02:56:29 <Sgeo> The .macro file is boring
02:56:37 <monqy> Sgeo: you want .rc not .macro
02:56:42 <elliott> SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
02:56:44 <Sgeo> monqy, yeah, I see that
02:56:54 <elliott> monqy: how long do your scripts even take to tune
02:57:05 <monqy> i dunno i've been talking in here which is slowing me down major
02:57:37 <Sgeo> What does G> do I forget
02:57:58 <monqy> you aren't peeking are you?
02:59:51 <Sgeo> Am I allowed to comment on a style I see?
03:00:08 <monqy> ahahahahahaha that style
03:00:52 <elliott> is monqy rewriting his script
03:01:00 <elliott> or does it really take this long to change its speed
03:01:30 <Sgeo> monqy, did you see my notice?
03:01:42 <monqy> sshshhhhhshshshhsshh
03:01:57 <elliott> i lost tractk of this sentence
03:02:03 <elliott> also does notice mean that
03:02:18 <Sgeo> That's not what I meant by it, but that's more than possible.
03:02:38 <monqy> you can bother me ingame if you get an account (you just have to put in a username and password and then you have an account)
03:02:59 <Sgeo> It's not like NetHack mail though, it doesn't actually effect the game
03:02:59 <elliott> i don't think i can bring myself to get a crawl account
03:03:15 <Sgeo> I haven't entirely learned the difference
03:03:18 <monqy> also what i'm doing to my script is making it use a thing that will make it automatically send keys so i don't have to press spacebar as much
03:03:43 <elliott> you gotta press the space bar man
03:03:51 <elliott> that's how the game is played
03:03:55 <monqy> i still have to press space! just not as much
03:04:54 <monqy> ok time to try this i guess (it probably won't work)
03:05:37 <elliott> yuore not even in the liste
03:05:47 <monqy> im pasting my config into the thing
03:05:51 <monqy> i;lll say when im playing
03:05:51 <elliott> Sgeo: is monqy cheating by auto type spaces
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03:06:40 <monqy> it's not working :'(
03:06:52 <elliott> is that beyond thinking im just
03:07:12 <monqy> if it was working that hobgoblem would be dead by now
03:07:25 <elliott> why are the error messages translated
03:07:34 <monqy> all messages are transklated
03:07:44 <monqy> oh great i can't save it's not letting me
03:08:02 <elliott> really hate pressing space to go to these lengths
03:08:35 <monqy> ok im playin again and it may or may not be working
03:08:39 <Sgeo> Why is there a purple box?
03:08:57 <monqy> ok it isn't working
03:09:11 <Sgeo> monqy, why are you worshiping Xom?
03:09:16 <monqy> Sgeo: because I want to
03:09:17 <elliott> you'd know it's working if you took control of the spaces!!!
03:09:54 <Sgeo> elliott, do you want to watch a non-automatic player worship Xom?
03:10:16 <monqy> woops i pressed the worng gkeys
03:10:25 <monqy> i wrogned the keys
03:10:41 <elliott> are you going to play again
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03:10:56 <Sgeo> elliott, I'll play
03:11:02 <monqy> im going to stare at my script a bit and see if i can make it work
03:11:32 <elliott> monqy: ping me before you start so i can
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03:13:26 <elliott> monqy: what percentage of your crawl time is spent tweaking your scripts
03:13:45 <monqy> nowadays? most of it%
03:17:16 <monqy> say when youre watching so i know when to stary
03:17:24 <monqy> hwere by start i mean
03:17:26 <monqy> start pressing space
03:19:30 <Sgeo> I don't think you want to be a plaything of Xom
03:19:44 <elliott> i think monqy already is a plaything of xorn
03:19:56 <Sgeo> Xom brought in a bunch of monsters I think
03:19:56 <monqy> probably the centaur shot through the quasit
03:20:39 <elliott> you fund a stairkas leading ut of ze dungeon
03:20:58 <elliott> i wonder if crawl makes more sense in slow motion
03:21:09 <monqy> im going to change it again
03:21:13 <Sgeo> I think monqy just saved
03:21:28 <elliott> i have never seen a game played this way in my entire life
03:21:43 <Sgeo> elliott, you know there are NetHack-playing bots, right
03:22:01 <elliott> afaict monqy isn't totally botting though
03:22:10 <monqy> yeah it's not a total bot
03:22:19 <monqy> i don't have the patience to totally bot
03:22:41 <monqy> but I also don't have the patience to play normally
03:23:23 <elliott> taeb makes ten times as much sense as this
03:24:28 <monqy> does this not make sense :(
03:24:29 <Sgeo> What doesn't make sense?
03:24:34 <monqy> ok im playin gagain
03:24:43 <elliott> Sgeo: have you even watched it
03:24:56 <monqy> i set up dangerfight on tab which overrides the safety mechanisms
03:25:37 <monqy> I think the automatic fleeing isn't working
03:25:55 <elliott> monqy started playing again
03:25:58 <monqy> ran into a pack of gnolls which xom inner flamed
03:26:07 <monqy> probably didn't even kill any to trigger the inner flame though
03:26:22 <elliott> i cant decide whether this is the worst or best game ever
03:26:29 <monqy> Sgeo: inner flame is a spell that you cast on a monster to make it explode into clouds of flame when it dies
03:26:34 <zzo38> elliott: Maybe they make it both
03:26:37 <monqy> Sgeo: sometimes xom casts it on everything
03:26:44 <elliott> given monqy's last statement it's probably both
03:26:57 <Sgeo> elliott, you can kill a god in Crawl
03:26:59 <zzo38> monqy: Including walls, objects, and the player?
03:27:27 <monqy> zzo38: just monsters, but plants are monsters too, except for trees, which are dungeon features
03:27:53 <Sgeo> elliott, in crawl, f is toadstool, which sometimes grows on corpses
03:28:02 <monqy> but the plants that appear from rotting corpses are monsters too, and if you're unlucky a corpse can sprout them, xom can inner flame them, and you can autoexplore through them, and they will explode
03:28:25 <monqy> I forget what I was doing
03:28:30 <monqy> I'll just play again
03:28:36 <monqy> if I die again I'll fix it
03:28:40 <Sgeo> monqy, wait, autoexplore will go through flames like that?
03:28:45 <Sgeo> I thought it's not supposed to
03:28:49 <monqy> Sgeo: autoexplore kills toadstools
03:28:53 <elliott> Sgeo: you need to watch too!!! we're doing this as a family
03:29:00 <monqy> Sgeo: are you watching too
03:29:11 <Sgeo> Yes, but I'll need to BRB in a bit
03:29:37 <monqy> im going to fix the fleeing
03:29:47 <Sgeo> elliott, no high score list == no death
03:30:22 <monqy> flashing colors happens every time crawl does stuff, like getting a key, because i have it configured to make my player glyph a flashy square
03:30:38 <elliott> i think that is a good configuration
03:30:39 <monqy> oh there's the problem
03:30:49 <monqy> i think i fixued it
03:31:17 <monqy> yeah the autoflee as implemented is kind of not that great
03:31:25 <monqy> I was going to make it better but I haven't had time
03:32:00 <elliott> have you ever won the game with this thing
03:32:18 <monqy> ran into a worm for some reason
03:32:30 <monqy> i only started making this thing after i got sick of playing crawl normally
03:32:45 <monqy> about the time of my last win
03:33:28 <monqy> february of last year
03:33:44 <monqy> but then i don't think i started this until later
03:33:47 <monqy> and i haven't worked on it much
03:33:59 <monqy> anyway plaiyng again
03:34:46 <monqy> I don't think I'll try fixing fleeing tonight
03:34:53 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Fri Apr 20 20:34:52 2012
03:35:10 <monqy> I have to get up at 6 tomorrow so
03:35:21 <elliott> nobody ever has to get up at 6
03:35:33 <Sgeo> monqy, would you say normal Crawl is entertaining for those who haven't won yet?
03:35:36 <elliott> they just delude themselves into thinking they do because they hate themselves
03:36:55 <Sgeo> elliott, it said You die...
03:36:59 <elliott> does itnot have a manual oevrride
03:38:08 <Sgeo> monqy, I think elliott would like it if you worshipped Cheibriados
03:38:44 <monqy> but im playing again
03:38:51 <elliott> i haven't understood a single death you've had yet
03:39:03 <monqy> that one was running into a centaur with fire arrows
03:39:08 <Sgeo> elliott, Cheibriados is the god of slowness. Chei likes it when you slow down
03:39:17 <Sgeo> When you kill fast things
03:39:20 <elliott> that is the most boring god
03:39:46 <monqy> oh no xom made the staircase go over there
03:40:07 <Sgeo> elliott, from Cheibriados reasons:
03:40:09 <Sgeo> "You like dying due to an accidental move."
03:40:27 <Sgeo> "You like being slower than all monsters and not having the ability to run away or use haste.
03:40:42 <elliott> monqy i cant help but note that your line of sight looks quite
03:40:52 <monqy> elliott: that's a flaw in crawl
03:41:10 <Sgeo> monqy, what's wrong with it?
03:41:11 <monqy> ugh my script keeps getting stuck and eating my keys and turning them into bad keys
03:41:19 <monqy> Sgeo: ask ##crawl I don't feel like explaing it
03:41:52 <monqy> if i kill the worm i'll die in the explosion
03:42:05 <monqy> but i can't escape because my script is bugging out
03:42:43 <zzo38> Then don't kill them.
03:42:54 <elliott> i thought it might be one of those tv things or something
03:42:57 <elliott> but i guess they just like playing crawl
03:43:11 <Sgeo> elliott, FooTV and Fightclub moved to termcast.something
03:43:28 <Sgeo> termcast.develz.org
03:43:44 <monqy> ok i think i fixed it
03:43:48 <monqy> going to run away from this worm
03:44:37 <elliott> what geomtry does crawl take place in i remember its weird because of circlelos
03:45:36 <monqy> crawl is really inconsistent about geometry things
03:46:05 <Sgeo> I do like being able to fire at things that aren't in straight lines away from me
03:46:10 <Sgeo> But that's not a LOS thing
03:46:26 <Sgeo> Well, they are in straight lines, just not diagonal or orthogonal
03:46:29 <monqy> for most purposes it's all chebyshevlike but it pretends it's euclidean for things like los and calculating trajectories
03:47:18 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chebyshev_distance
03:47:54 <monqy> anyway playing again
03:48:50 <monqy> something's wrong with this i have to check it
03:50:00 <monqy> ok probably fixed enough
03:50:46 <elliott> you need to give me more warning about these :'(
03:50:47 <Sgeo> elliott, it's all Xom's fault
03:50:48 <monqy> xom inner flamed a rat
03:51:09 <monqy> elliptic is good ye
03:51:18 <monqy> (and hyperbolic is elliptic)
03:51:28 <Sgeo> monqy, is your script not good at avoiding inner flames?
03:51:34 <monqy> Sgeo: my script is awful
03:51:39 <monqy> Sgeo: I haven't worked on it much
03:52:03 <monqy> eventually i should maybe get the script to a point where it isn't absolutely horrible but
03:52:09 <Sgeo> monqy, or, you can avoid early inner flames by not worshipping Xom
03:52:50 <elliott> the worst thing about crawl
03:52:55 <elliott> is how tiny the viewport is
03:53:01 <elliott> and you have all these annoying stats taking up more screen than the actual map
03:53:25 <elliott> why isn't the name on the right translated
03:53:41 <monqy> only the message area ghets trnslated
03:54:34 <monqy> i was going too fast
03:54:43 <elliott> i cant tell how far into the game you're actually getting
03:54:47 <elliott> like how many nethack dlvls
03:54:54 <monqy> i don't know nethack
03:55:09 <elliott> nethack is a bad game (but not as bad as crawl)
03:55:28 <Sgeo> elliott, do you like any roguelikes?
03:55:43 <monqy> i remembered vagrant while i was looking away
03:55:50 <monqy> then i came back after i hit enter and it was already there
03:56:02 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Sch%C3%A9ma_synchronicit%C3%A9_in_English.png
03:56:09 <Sgeo> This thing? http://pastebin.com/KprE6bfz
03:56:25 <elliott> it's shorter than that i think
03:56:29 <elliott> or actually i think it was like 100 lines
03:56:34 <elliott> but they were very very dense lines
03:57:59 <zzo38> We can make up another roguelike in Haskell, called extensible-roguelike (also the package name); I write a few things and then we can even work together because to add something will be necessary simply add a file
03:58:33 <zzo38> Using extensible-data package
03:59:07 <elliott> did monqy ever play vagrant i forget
03:59:13 <monqy> i asked for it and you said you lost it
03:59:51 <zzo38> But I did make some short roguelikes such as the KING game for 7HRL.
04:00:13 <elliott> monqy: i read all Ss as snakes
04:00:47 <Sgeo> I tried to give monqy a message
04:01:04 <monqy> using this script probably isn't helping crawl not seem arbitrary and randomly difficult
04:02:37 <Sgeo> Did Xom just turn walls to ice?
04:02:55 <Sgeo> You die. Xom bursts into laugher!
04:03:01 <monqy> menkuare, a unique mummy, killed me
04:03:18 <monqy> take out the fleeing
04:03:24 <monqy> it is hurting more than helping
04:03:41 <Sgeo> monqy, are you a bad person for using that style?
04:04:03 <monqy> this isn't supposed to be good code
04:04:16 <monqy> being a mess is part of the fun
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04:05:29 <elliott> why not just make it stop when it wants to flee
04:05:29 <elliott> so that you can flee and restart it
04:05:29 <elliott> monqy: is that a bad idea ;_;
04:05:52 <elliott> <monqy> menkuare, a unique mummy, killed me
04:05:52 <elliott> <monqy> take out the fleeing
04:05:52 <elliott> <elliott> why not just make it stop when it wants to flee
04:05:52 <elliott> <elliott> so that you can flee and restart it
04:05:52 <elliott> <elliott> im...just saying
04:05:55 <elliott> <elliott> monqy: is that a bad idea ;_;
04:05:56 <elliott> <elliott> help monqy stard and
04:06:01 <elliott> <monqy> it is hurting more than helping
04:06:03 <elliott> <Sgeo> monqy, are you a bad person for using that style?
04:06:08 <elliott> <monqy> this isn't supposed to be good code
04:06:10 <elliott> <monqy> being a mess is part of the fun
04:06:24 <monqy> anyway yeah now it just fails instead of fleeing
04:07:09 <monqy> oh no I got teleported into a gnoll castle
04:07:41 <Sgeo> And why was it on those scrolls
04:07:44 <monqy> prevents me from reading accidentally
04:07:57 <monqy> if i kill one of them, they all die now
04:08:19 <elliott> does crawl not have elbereth
04:08:21 <monqy> i have to get away but hounds are fast
04:08:24 <monqy> crawl doesnt have elbereth
04:08:42 <elliott> wow its actually called iner flam in german
04:09:25 <zzo38> If you want to play small roguelike game then try KING game as well
04:09:37 <elliott> this is the first danger monqy has been in that i actually understand
04:10:37 <elliott> did you ask it to walk into the dart trap
04:10:45 <monqy> it asked me if i wanted to
04:11:13 <Sgeo> Those sorts of things usually ask for capital Y or N
04:11:27 <elliott> when it says your surroundings suddenly seem different
04:11:31 <elliott> is that xom tepelorting you
04:11:43 <zzo38> KING game is the game that you have to collect one hundred stones to become king
04:12:26 <monqy> xom inner flamed a snake
04:12:54 <monqy> i think there's something really wrong in the way this is fighting
04:12:55 <elliott> did you get the auto-space thing working i forget
04:13:05 <monqy> i ;;ll have to fix it later
04:13:10 <monqy> not going to bother fixing it now
04:13:34 <monqy> they're the same thing
04:13:49 <elliott> the thing that means you dont even have to press space a lot
04:13:59 <monqy> yeah that's part of my autofight
04:14:20 <monqy> sigmund went invisible and killed me from afar with his scythe
04:14:46 <monqy> it's more fair if you're paying attention and not using a ridiculous macro
04:14:53 <monqy> but then it's also more boring so
04:15:03 <Sgeo> And not worship Xom
04:15:22 <Sgeo> Although that makes it more boring too
04:16:07 <elliott> whats the brb bbs difference
04:16:35 <Sgeo> bbs is longer duration than brb imo
04:16:37 <elliott> monqy: does the autofight ever work
04:16:59 <monqy> it plows through easy boring tedious things (most of the game)
04:17:10 <monqy> but when it hits something even slightly interesting it just explodes
04:17:40 <monqy> the dancing around is
04:17:44 <monqy> it plowing through easy boring tedious things
04:18:01 <elliott> i cant diwstingushi that from just
04:18:05 <monqy> most people use a less aggressive autofight that only takes one step at a time and doesn't do any dancing
04:18:24 <monqy> and they have it on tab instead of space, since space skips important messages
04:18:39 <monqy> (i have it on space because space skips annoying combat clutter messages)
04:18:55 <monqy> anyway trying again
04:19:56 <zzo38> You should worship AAAA!!!!BBLJLJlkjabasb,,AAAAAAA,,,AA!!!!!AAA!!!!!??
04:20:43 <elliott> monqy: why does it unknown command
04:21:22 <monqy> what i want to know is why sometimes it dances around monsterss when it should be fighting them
04:21:27 <monqy> i probably goofed something up real bad :(
04:21:59 <elliott> how do you regani hp so quickly
04:22:03 <elliott> in nethack it takes like years
04:22:04 <zzo38> Maybe don't fight everyone
04:22:14 <monqy> and I have my spacebar rest for me
04:22:18 <zzo38> Only sometimes, and don't waste time please
04:22:30 <monqy> 5 rests until either something comes into view or you've waited 100 turns
04:22:38 <elliott> oh wait how many turns is a rest
04:22:54 <elliott> with nethack we just prefix a repeat number before . or s
04:23:05 <elliott> and it does it that many times or until something happens
04:23:06 <monqy> honestly I dislike the whole regaining hp over time mechanic because resting is awful
04:23:13 <elliott> which usually means: a monster is right next to you
04:23:35 <elliott> monqy: sorry but: vagrant has that mechanic :'(
04:23:50 <elliott> which are the most fun hp regain system ever
04:23:53 <elliott> actually does it have hp over time
04:23:55 <monqy> my roguelike won't have hp over time
04:24:22 <monqy> I need to make my roguelike sometime
04:24:29 <elliott> i want to make a roguelike too after seeing this
04:24:56 <monqy> if you want a good impression of crawl you probably shouldn't be watching me
04:25:05 <monqy> not that crawl is good but
04:26:08 <monqy> I'm having trouble since i dislike crawl but i also kind of think you have an unfair anticrawl bias and should give it a chance so im just confused :'(
04:26:14 <monqy> depends on what you mean by magic
04:26:25 <elliott> i realise that crawl is better than what im seeing here
04:26:26 <monqy> maybe some spells are fun
04:26:33 <elliott> but ive like also watched more regular crawl for like
04:26:54 <monqy> some people play crawl really boringly
04:27:01 <monqy> other people do exciting things
04:27:01 <elliott> also ais523 doesn't like it
04:27:25 <elliott> and i cant bring myself to disagree with ais523 on roguelikes
04:28:46 <elliott> maybe ~i~ should play ~crawl~
04:28:49 <elliott> to prove to myself its bad game
04:29:05 <monqy> and the different parts of the game are
04:29:17 <elliott> are you about to do interesting squarelos thing because if not ill uh register an account i guess
04:29:24 <monqy> like i dislike early game and midgame but late game can be sort of fun if you do it right
04:29:34 <monqy> i'm done with squarelos for now
04:29:46 <monqy> i'll have to improve the script later
04:29:53 <Sgeo> monqy, lategame with minimum runes or with more runes?
04:30:06 <Sgeo> crawl.develz.org
04:30:18 <Sgeo> telnet to port 345, or there's an ssh key thingy
04:30:19 <monqy> Sgeo: parts of both
04:30:38 <monqy> Sgeo: like vaults:8 can be fun but scumming abyss for its rune is never fun
04:30:55 <elliott> do i need to do any configuration before playing
04:31:02 <monqy> if you want your thing configured
04:31:03 <elliott> i dont care about minor tweaks
04:31:24 <Sgeo> It comes with a lot of what a NetHack person would consider tweaks already
04:31:31 <monqy> do you know the keys
04:31:31 <Sgeo> Color-coded inventory
04:31:38 <elliott> you will have to teach me as i go
04:31:44 <Sgeo> There's a tutorial thing
04:31:44 <elliott> is all the junk in the trunk
04:31:49 <monqy> o is autoexplore, tab is autofight
04:31:58 <Sgeo> monqy, there's an autofight key???
04:31:58 <monqy> X is map, G is interlevel autotravel
04:32:08 <monqy> Sgeo: I can't believe you didn't know about autofight
04:32:21 <monqy> Sgeo: autofight is the most important thing in crawl
04:32:25 <Sgeo> I thought that was your macro
04:32:37 <elliott> sgeo is really boring though
04:32:38 <monqy> my macro is a heavily modified autofight that does a lot more and is faster
04:32:53 <Sgeo> Oh, you need to configure autofight
04:32:56 <monqy> normal autofight only takes a single step and has a lot of other restrictions and only does fighting etc
04:32:56 <Sgeo> At least according to learndb
04:33:04 <monqy> Sgeo: no you don't
04:33:13 <monqy> Sgeo: that;s outdated
04:33:19 <Sgeo> elliott, you can select class first
04:33:25 <monqy> depends on what sort of game you want to play
04:33:32 <Sgeo> elliott, do you want to worship Xom?
04:33:33 <elliott> but preferably not one where i die immediately
04:33:35 <monqy> you're out of luck
04:33:35 <Sgeo> Ok, then press space
04:33:47 <monqy> maybe a chaos knight?
04:33:50 <monqy> troll chaos knight?
04:33:52 <Sgeo> Chaos Knight I think for Xom
04:34:18 <monqy> you don't want to use weapons
04:34:23 <monqy> you use your fists
04:34:23 <Sgeo> Automatic unless a monster recently turned invisible
04:34:42 <monqy> c to chop up a corpse you're standing on, e to eat the chunks of flesh
04:34:49 <monqy> you have to chop it
04:35:12 <monqy> one thing about trolls is they probably have one of the most easyboring early games but they're a nice introduction maybe?
04:35:22 <elliott> im so used to walking around meticulously
04:35:28 <elliott> but i get the feeling crawls terrain is way too boring for that
04:35:28 <monqy> autoexplore and autofight helps crawl be less boring
04:35:34 <monqy> crawl levels are way too huge
04:35:47 <monqy> if you aren't speedrunning, you should be autoexploring
04:35:52 <elliott> is out of the dungeon = quit
04:36:06 <Sgeo> elliott, corpses are color coded
04:36:12 <monqy> if it's too boring you might want to dive down a few levels
04:36:15 <Sgeo> So if you know the code, you won't eat anything poisonous
04:36:28 <monqy> Sgeo: it prevents you from eating poisonous chunks anyway
04:37:19 <Sgeo> I think brown is "Can make you sick but won't kill you"?
04:37:34 <Sgeo> (bleeding) reminds me of DF
04:37:45 <monqy> elliott: you cant choke
04:38:06 <monqy> Sgeo: brown is can make you nausea but not poison you. trolls don't have to worry about that though
04:38:19 <Sgeo> monqy, don't have to worry?
04:38:26 <monqy> elliott: snakes are faster than you so it's a bad idea to run away and let them hit you
04:38:37 <monqy> Sgeo: they won't get nausea from brown chunks
04:38:54 <elliott> im startled by how easy it is so far
04:39:11 <monqy> crawl early early game varies wildly dependent on your character
04:39:14 <Sgeo> Trolls have it easy in the beginning. If you worshiped Trog would be easier
04:39:15 <monqy> trolls have ridiculously easy early games
04:39:25 <monqy> trolls have armour problems
04:39:51 <Sgeo> You don't want Xom to be bored
04:39:56 <monqy> don't worry about it
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04:40:08 <Sgeo> monqy, isn't hurting yourself non-boring?
04:40:14 <elliott> i dont have any flesh chunks
04:40:20 <monqy> elliott: find some more
04:40:42 <monqy> choko is permafood
04:40:42 <Sgeo> I keep thinking choko == chocolate
04:40:49 <monqy> it's a gourd isn't it
04:41:29 <monqy> for some people yes
04:41:37 <elliott> i have elected not to be scared
04:41:39 <Sgeo> Sigmund is well known at least
04:41:52 <elliott> why autopickup deactivated
04:41:57 <monqy> because sigmund went inviisble
04:41:59 <Sgeo> elliott, because someone turned invisible
04:42:09 <Sgeo> Not safe to stop and pick stuff up when there's an invisible enemy nearby
04:42:32 <elliott> can i pray to xom or something
04:42:37 <monqy> new players have troubles with sigmund so he has a reputation for being nasty
04:42:43 <monqy> you can try your items or kill him
04:42:48 <Sgeo> I think there is a god that you can ask for help, but Xom isn't it
04:42:49 <monqy> or run away but that won't work by now
04:42:57 <elliott> well i cant see him so killing him is quite difficult
04:43:06 <monqy> e is probably healing
04:43:17 <monqy> if you have a large stack early on it's most likely curing\
04:43:18 <Sgeo> yellow = potentially lifesaving
04:43:35 <monqy> you already have a robe
04:43:54 <monqy> some robes are better than others but that one can't possibley be better than yours
04:43:55 <Sgeo> Go berserk, oh wait you can't
04:44:09 <Sgeo> (Note: I knew you can't)
04:44:33 <monqy> you can go down it
04:44:46 <monqy> but it doesn't connect to another staircase so you can't go bakc up
04:44:47 <Sgeo> I'm going to assume it's the >
04:45:12 <Sgeo> elliott, that puts a log thingy somewhere public
04:45:21 <elliott> can i do anything with altar tho
04:45:31 <Sgeo> elliott, altars are for converting to the god
04:45:32 <monqy> p to pray at it but you're already worshipping xom
04:46:02 <elliott> does autofight do anything but go in the direction of the monster
04:46:05 <elliott> cuz thats what ive been doing to fight
04:46:39 <Sgeo> Finding something doesn't mean you're standing on it
04:46:43 <monqy> autofight also does some prioritizing and stops fighting if your hp drops below a certain threshhold and it's easier to mash than the direction keys since it will always point in the correct direction and you won't overstep or misstep
04:47:09 <Sgeo> You don't want to autofight something that you need to hit with ranged attacks, right?
04:47:18 <Sgeo> I lost a good TrBe due to not having ranged attacks
04:47:26 <monqy> elliott: ogres hit hard so don't back yourself into a corner
04:47:36 <monqy> elliott: eating chunks a lot is fine but eating permafood is excessive
04:47:50 <elliott> and i just meant because i've been engorged like
04:48:04 <monqy> Sgeo: you don't need ranged attacks
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04:48:08 <Sgeo> elliott, with most species, you can't get engorged with corpses
04:48:18 <Sgeo> elliott, you'd be too disgusted to eat when not hungry
04:49:06 <Sgeo> elliott, you can set exclusions so autoexplore avoids the area
04:49:10 <monqy> eating in combat probably isn't a good idea
04:49:45 <elliott> i like how i don't have to think about what items are interesting
04:49:49 <elliott> because the game comes with a bot
04:50:09 <monqy> it's not at all a sophisticated bot
04:50:17 <Sgeo> elliott, if you want to really think the game is all bot-ty, try Ctrl-F
04:50:19 <elliott> yeah but it's not at all a sophisticated game either
04:50:20 <monqy> but you have an easy character combo to start
04:50:34 <RocketJSquirrel> My reverb engine MAY have gone crazy ... 68GB of intermediate data and counting.
04:50:35 <Sgeo> monqy, back me up in saying it won't kill him to try it
04:50:41 <monqy> maybe I should have given you a harder starting combo because as-is im constantly afraid of you getting bored because you're never in danger
04:50:56 <Sgeo> elliott, just press it
04:51:01 <elliott> yeah a bit more danger would be welcome but im happy to go down a bit more until something interesting happens
04:51:17 <Sgeo> It only knows things you've seen
04:51:24 <Sgeo> So try food or shop or .
04:51:34 <monqy> but you cant sell to shoppe
04:51:39 <Sgeo> Yes, but you cannot steal and you cannot self.
04:51:41 <monqy> you have to enter shoppe with >
04:51:53 <monqy> fountains don't do anything
04:52:00 <elliott> they're much more fun in nethack
04:52:37 <Sgeo> elliott, bones files are also more boring in Crawl
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04:52:56 <Sgeo> The only thing that is saved is the character itself. No items, no nast monsters
04:52:56 <monqy> maybe that was a bad time to hold down tab
04:53:16 <elliott> are these things slower than me
04:53:23 <monqy> ogres and rats are the same speed
04:53:25 <Sgeo> So you get to fight a p, with no reward
04:53:28 <elliott> do i have enough hp to kill the hound then run?
04:53:40 <Sgeo> Although player ghosts are harder in Crawl then nethack
04:54:00 <monqy> trolls regenerate hp quickly so you can probably run a bit and then resume fighting
04:54:57 <Sgeo> You can cause your friends to target a specific monster
04:55:18 <Sgeo> (Although you have no friends, so)
04:55:29 <elliott> that was actually pretty fun so consider my anti-crawl sentiment WEAKENING
04:55:50 <monqy> geyent aeybals paralyze you
04:55:57 <monqy> if they can see you
04:55:59 <monqy> they will para you
04:56:14 <monqy> crawl has its moments but most of it isn't moments. if only crawl was 100% moments
04:56:35 <elliott> is meleeing them dangerous
04:56:36 <Sgeo> monqy, are sprints non-boring in your opinion?
04:56:46 <monqy> Sgeo: they have different problems
04:56:56 <monqy> Sgeo: "boring in a different way"
04:57:19 <Sgeo> elliott, go find stares
04:57:23 <elliott> monqy: is there a travel command
04:57:29 <monqy> then > to go donwstains
04:57:41 <Sgeo> There's also X
04:58:12 <monqy> you rpobably want to go upstairs
04:58:22 <Sgeo> monqy, what happened that .... Xom just saved elliott
04:58:32 <Sgeo> elliott, you have more teleporting to do
04:59:17 <Sgeo> elliott, pause, think
04:59:19 <Sgeo> Check inventory
04:59:32 <monqy> at some time you might want to identify those items
04:59:41 <monqy> now is not the time
04:59:50 <elliott> maybe i'll read a scroll at random
05:00:00 <monqy> probably won't save you
05:00:06 <monqy> best bet might be to try killing the centaur
05:00:21 <monqy> ideally you shouldn't have done what you did
05:00:29 <elliott> that's not really an option
05:00:37 <monqy> running away won't work
05:00:45 <monqy> since centaurs are ranged and fast
05:00:55 <Sgeo> elliott, you're examining an item in inventory
05:01:10 <elliott> ok what if i zap a wand at random
05:01:16 <monqy> you can probably finish the centaur off if you just hit it normally
05:01:32 <monqy> zapping the wand could kill you
05:01:59 <Sgeo> <Gretell> elliott the Ruffian (L7 TrCK), worshipper of Xom, slain by a centaur on D:8, with 800 points after 2027 turns and 0:26:48.
05:02:08 <elliott> ok what's a less boring starting thing
05:02:09 <Sgeo> Wait, how were you on D:8
05:02:15 <monqy> Sgeo: he dove a bit
05:02:16 <Sgeo> elliott, some other Chaos Knight?
05:02:23 <monqy> maybe not a chaos knight
05:02:26 <monqy> probably not a troll
05:02:35 <Sgeo> monqy, Lugonu worshipper?
05:02:55 <monqy> you could go a nontroll ck, or a troll ck and just dive more
05:03:07 <elliott> i want a different thingy with a harder early game
05:03:07 <Sgeo> elliott, if you worship Lugonu, you won't start on level 1
05:03:17 <elliott> aer chaos nights the only xommers
05:03:17 <monqy> only chaos knight (ck) starts with xom
05:03:29 <Sgeo> elliott, try Abyssal Knight
05:03:33 <Sgeo> You start in the Abyss
05:03:35 <monqy> mummy chaos knight has a harder early game
05:03:52 <monqy> you start with the exit nearby and an ability to exit it
05:04:01 <monqy> elliott: sgeo trying to make starting in the abyss sound amazing
05:04:06 <monqy> it's really rather mundane
05:04:08 <Sgeo> monqy, I've never tried it
05:04:15 <Sgeo> Just sounds hard
05:04:30 <monqy> deep dwarves don't regain hp naturally
05:04:32 <Sgeo> Grey doesn't mean can't
05:04:35 <Sgeo> It means difficult
05:04:56 <Sgeo> I know *** Knight Demigod is forbidden
05:05:05 <monqy> elliott: depends on your playstle i guess
05:05:15 <elliott> ooooootabtabtabooootabtabooo>
05:05:23 <monqy> centaurs are fast so you can run away from dangerous stuff
05:05:35 <Sgeo> Why more than one o?
05:05:46 <monqy> Sgeo: because sometimes aotuexplore stops
05:05:48 <elliott> because it just stops when it's still boring
05:06:05 <monqy> elliott: maybe pick a spear; spears can reach over a tile (use tab to do it)
05:06:18 <monqy> you can also use v to do it manually but doing it manually is teedious
05:06:29 <Sgeo> What does v do exactly?
05:06:35 <monqy> evoke wielded item
05:06:41 <monqy> V is evoke item from inventory
05:06:55 <Sgeo> elliott, attack many things
05:06:59 <Sgeo> It's good fighting berserk
05:07:02 <Sgeo> But then you slow down
05:07:04 <monqy> berk makes you fast and hit harder
05:07:10 <monqy> but you can't use items or cast spells
05:07:19 <monqy> and you get exhausted and slow after berk ends
05:07:30 <elliott> ugh why is my centaur picky
05:07:34 <Sgeo> elliott, Berserkers start off being able to berserk arbitrarily
05:07:40 <Sgeo> elliott, and most species are
05:07:44 <Sgeo> Trolls are an exception
05:07:47 <elliott> whats nonpicky species for future reference
05:08:01 <monqy> mummies don't have to eat at all
05:08:07 <monqy> vampires have a special eating mechanic
05:08:14 <monqy> I think felids are nonpicky but hahahahahahahahah felids
05:08:53 <Sgeo> monqy, is glowing good?
05:09:06 <monqy> elliott: you have to be hungry to eat chunks
05:09:10 <monqy> Sgeo: what do you mean by good
05:09:27 <monqy> elliott whiy arent you weielding your weapone :(
05:11:20 <Sgeo> green == poisonous
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05:12:49 <elliott> monqy: where do i get food anyway
05:13:09 <monqy> or food acquirement
05:13:13 <monqy> or food gifts from xom
05:14:02 * Sgeo is amused at it claiming that you quaffed a potion of experience
05:14:03 <monqy> don't bother with what skills do what at this stage of learning
05:14:30 <elliott> should i just select them all
05:14:36 <monqy> the;yr ealready all selected
05:14:45 <monqy> what you can do now is focus them or deslect them or hit enter
05:15:18 <Sgeo> How did elliott suffer?
05:15:31 <monqy> xom statdrain is dumb but whatever
05:15:38 <monqy> (statdrain is generally dumb)
05:15:45 <Sgeo> elliott, you're hungry, you can eat corpses now
05:15:49 <Sgeo> Oh, not hungry anymore
05:17:53 <elliott> monqy: why do crimson imps say weird
05:18:18 <monqy> imps have weirdspeak
05:19:02 <monqy> hounds are faster than you i think
05:19:05 <monqy> porcupines are not
05:19:53 <monqy> when Sick you won';t regenerate hp
05:19:59 <Sgeo> elliott, you need to stand on the stairs to use them
05:20:21 <Sgeo> elliott, has a lot of altars
05:20:23 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sat Apr 21 06:20:55
05:20:38 <Sgeo> elliott, good place to start worshippping a god
05:21:12 <Sgeo> elliott, also, monsters shouldn't spawn there, so good place to rest
05:21:56 <monqy> pikel is a unique big kobold with a band of slaves
05:22:10 <Sgeo> pikel[1/1]: A (big) kobold slaver, on his way to the Orcish Mines to sell his wares. Comes with a band of 4 humans, which will be pacified when you kill Pikel. Has a whip of either flaming or electrocution.
05:22:10 <monqy> his whip is either flaming or electric
05:22:49 <monqy> they're probably already aimed
05:22:54 <zzo38> Can you buy his wares?
05:23:24 <Sgeo> Anyway, t controls your pets
05:23:46 <Sgeo> Ooh, did I see deck of cards?
05:23:53 <monqy> looks like you killed pickel
05:23:59 <Sgeo> monqy, are cards useful for people who don't worship Nemelex Xobeh?
05:24:12 <monqy> Sgeo: if you have good evo, sometimes
05:24:50 <Sgeo> monqy, is Nemelex Xobeh the sort of fun that elliott likes?
05:25:26 <monqy> running away from centaurs isn't the best idea
05:25:43 <elliott> ok ONE more game and then im going to bed
05:26:18 <monqy> kobold or spriggan(doesnt eat meat at all) or troll or mummy(no food) or ghoul
05:26:31 <elliott> no food sounds convenient but mummys are: SPOOKY
05:26:35 <Sgeo> monqy, do you know what the word "picky" means?
05:26:42 <Sgeo> And hence what nonpicky means?
05:26:59 <monqy> Sgeo: it's a real word, Sgeo
05:27:05 <elliott> monqy: whats xom thing for kobold
05:27:21 <monqy> greyed out just means not recommended by elliptic&marvinpa
05:27:22 <Sgeo> monqy, and vegetarian does not fit "nonpicky" in any sense I know of
05:27:44 <monqy> maybe short sword for you
05:28:02 <zzo38> Dead people shouldn't eat at all
05:28:41 <Sgeo> It actually says getting BORED?
05:30:12 <monqy> also the thing with ghouls is they don't get hungry in the normal sense but they rot over time and eating heals them and unrots them
05:30:34 <monqy> and being hungry makes them rot a tiny bit faster
05:31:20 <Sgeo> monqy, why is all that food yellow?
05:31:43 <Sgeo> Why does kobold make food yellow?
05:32:25 <elliott> you know how my impression of crawl was that it's really boring and easy except when it just randomly springs immense difficulty on you arbitrarily
05:32:36 <elliott> that's still my impression of crawl
05:32:49 <Sgeo> elliott, the random immense difficulty is not helped by Xom
05:33:09 <elliott> Sgeo: ok but that's actually a slightly better impression than "it's really boring and easy"
05:33:35 <monqy> if you dont want that impression then don't go xom yeah. but still all of your deaths could have been pretty easily prevented. but yeah the boring and easy part is one of the reasons why i don't like crawl
05:33:45 <elliott> monqy: well they could have been easily prevented
05:33:48 <elliott> it's just that they weren't because
05:33:52 <elliott> i kept hitting things mindlessly
05:33:57 <elliott> because otherwise i'd be bored out of my skull
05:34:01 <elliott> checking each trivial action
05:34:18 <elliott> i guess i'll try more seriously tomorrow
05:34:20 <monqy> my roguelike wont have this problem (it will be exciting !)
05:34:29 <elliott> is your roguelike like my roguelike
05:34:32 <Sgeo> What was that quote, that was like "Anyone could win at NetHack if they spend two seconds per turn"
05:34:33 <elliott> maybe they're the same game
05:34:36 <monqy> whats vagrant like
05:34:41 <monqy> i wnt to paly vagrant
05:34:42 <zzo38> monqy: OK, what roguelike is that one?
05:34:45 <elliott> uh well vagrant as in vagrant.py is
05:34:50 <monqy> zzo38: i have not made my roguelike yet
05:34:51 <elliott> not the most difficult or complex game
05:34:56 <elliott> but My Roguelike would be pretty neato
05:35:04 <elliott> lots of dwarf fortressy procedural stuff
05:35:13 <elliott> a combat system that isn't just
05:35:18 <elliott> shove yourself into things until they die
05:35:27 <Sgeo> elliott, there is magic in Crawl
05:35:35 <elliott> zap wands at things until they die
05:35:37 <monqy> magic in crawl is boring too for the most part
05:35:46 <monqy> conjurations are plink at things until they die
05:35:51 <monqy> except instead of hitting one key to autofight
05:35:55 <monqy> you hit three keys to fire your spell
05:35:57 <monqy> and have to manage mp
05:36:13 <elliott> monqy: also i find repetitiveness really really boring in roguelikes
05:36:13 <monqy> the other schools are less boring
05:36:23 <elliott> i'd be inclined to have more elaborate questy things involving actual progress
05:36:23 <monqy> repetitiveness in roguelikes is awful
05:36:26 <zzo38> monqy: I have made some small roguelikes a bit. But to make a large one, I might do with Haskell; a roguelike game written in Haskell would the memory and speed be sufficiently efficient? But I can tell you my ideas in case you want, too
05:36:26 <elliott> rather than a lot of melee grinding
05:36:37 <Sgeo> elliott, I want to see you try a Sprint
05:36:37 <elliott> also i'd like actually interesting terrain
05:36:50 <elliott> nethack's terrain is mostly
05:36:56 <elliott> "a bunch of rooms with nonsense pathways"
05:37:02 <elliott> or sometimes "a big room divided up nonsensely"
05:37:15 <Sgeo> elliott, please Crawl sprint now, although I guess that won't help with terrain
05:37:15 <elliott> and crawl's seems to mostly be "stupid maze"
05:37:27 <elliott> Sgeo: eeeh i was going to go to bed; how long would that take
05:37:29 <monqy> crawl has a few different terrains
05:37:35 <zzo38> I can show you the small roguelikes in case you want.
05:37:36 <Sgeo> elliott, you'll probably die quickly
05:37:37 <monqy> "stupid maze" is one of the least annoying
05:37:47 <monqy> most annoying is probably open level with electric eels that shoot at you
05:37:57 <Sgeo> monqy, which sprint?
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05:38:01 <monqy> Sgeo: which sprint?
05:38:02 <elliott> monqy: btw when you asked about vagrant
05:38:05 <elliott> was it about existing vagrant
05:38:06 <Sgeo> The only one I've even attempted is I
05:38:08 <elliott> or platonic ideal roguelike vagrant
05:38:18 <elliott> ok well existing vagrant is
05:38:23 <elliott> imagine an infinite terrain
05:38:28 <elliott> with walls placed at random (not as rooms)
05:38:35 <elliott> and you have a turn counter
05:38:44 <elliott> and your fedness goes down each turn
05:38:49 <Sgeo> monqy, are ziggurat's interesting, because there's a "Ziggurat Sprint"
05:38:49 <elliott> and if it gets to 0 you die
05:38:56 <elliott> and you can walk around getting potions and healing
05:39:02 <elliott> also there's monsters which attack you and i think steal your money sometimes
05:39:11 <monqy> my roguelike wont have food
05:39:14 <elliott> also the potion system is nice because it just adds on to a single counter which you can turn into hp
05:39:21 <elliott> rather than being all boring and inventory
05:39:31 <monqy> and it wont have annoying inventory system
05:39:33 <elliott> (the turning into hp takes a random amount of potion off and turns it into a random amount of hp, basically)
05:39:43 <monqy> and it wont have any sort of item identification !!
05:39:47 <elliott> monqy was all hahahha felid
05:39:51 <elliott> monqy: i hate identification of all forms
05:40:00 <zzo38> monqy: If it has nothing like that, then, what will it have?
05:40:04 <monqy> i've only seen identification done well once but
05:40:09 <monqy> i don't know if it would work in a roguelike
05:40:52 <Sgeo> r, but from the inventory screen and selecting an item you can do things there too
05:40:55 <monqy> and it wasn't item identification it was more like performing linguistic analysis on spells
05:41:33 <elliott> monqy: also another thing i hate is basically anything that makes spoilers meaningful at all
05:41:37 <Sgeo> elliott, I do believe I said you'd die quickly
05:41:45 <Sgeo> elliott, like in NetHack?
05:41:45 <elliott> ie i don't like guesswork, ever
05:41:49 <monqy> oh yeah spopielrs are awful
05:41:50 <elliott> Sgeo: yes, like 90% of nethack
05:42:07 <elliott> because you can either play without the spoilers and get a billion yasds
05:42:16 <elliott> or play with spoilers and deal with a level of indirection to finding out trivial things
05:42:34 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure Crawl is sort of anti the whole spoiler thing
05:42:42 <monqy> crwl has spoilers out the wazooo
05:42:44 <Sgeo> Although when it comes to read-identifying scrolls, it is still a bit
05:42:46 <monqy> just less than nethack maybe?
05:42:58 <monqy> crawl pretends to be antispoiler but
05:43:10 <elliott> i also hate anything that can be automated trivially but i guess that's kind of obvious
05:43:26 <elliott> like if autoexplore is helpful 90% of the time that just means your level design is crappy
05:43:36 <monqy> same with autofight and monster design
05:43:42 <monqy> or whatever it is design
05:44:10 <Sgeo> elliott, well, no need for autoexplore in sprint
05:44:16 <monqy> and also their presence is kind of bad because they are crutches
05:44:22 <elliott> i also hate both nethack's and crawl's viewport/moving systems
05:44:26 <monqy> 'oh hey there is autoexplore so having awful huge levels is fine'
05:44:31 <elliott> but i'm not sure how i'd do it myself
05:44:32 <monqy> what is a good viewport/moving system
05:44:35 <elliott> i quite like vagrant's viewport system
05:44:43 <elliott> well you know how with crawl every move you make scrolls everything
05:44:49 <elliott> (and with nethack you just plain can't have non-tiny levels)
05:45:01 <elliott> i find the every-move-scrolls-everything thing a bit disorienting
05:45:09 <elliott> so with vagrant you can move around the middle of the screen and everything stays still
05:45:16 <elliott> the scrolling only happens when you walk nearer the edge
05:45:24 <monqy> but you have to turn it on
05:45:32 <elliott> i seem to remember hearing it described but it wasn't as good as vagrant's
05:45:43 <Sgeo> I should sleep
05:45:46 <monqy> i've never had a problem with scrolling
05:45:55 <elliott> actually i'd be tempted to just have predefined areas where
05:46:01 <elliott> when you go to the edge it completely scrolls it out
05:46:10 <elliott> i.e. the scrolling is dictated by the level design
05:46:37 <elliott> monqy: tell me about monqylike
05:46:38 <monqy> i haven't come up with anything for my roguelike better than "levels are just really really tiny and you can't go to levels you've left so there's no awful exploration or empty space or traveling or scrolling problems or anything like that"
05:47:14 <elliott> i don't like really really tiny but uh
05:47:17 <elliott> we probably have different notions of that
05:47:25 <elliott> "really really tiny" is "smaller than nethack levels" to me
05:47:32 <monqy> my levels would be
05:47:35 <monqy> smaller than nethack levels
05:47:39 <monqy> nethack levels are pretty big
05:47:42 <elliott> have you seen nethack levels
05:47:50 <monqy> there's lots of space
05:47:58 <elliott> well, yeah, but that's just because of bad level design
05:48:53 <elliott> monqy: like the Astral Plane doesn't have a lot of wasted space
05:49:39 <monqy> maybe i could get a good level design going
05:49:43 <elliott> monqy: anyway i think levels should be a conceptual unit
05:49:54 <elliott> ie a level should correspond to some actual thing or unit
05:50:15 <elliott> one design idea, or one quest, or one melee difficulty, or whatever
05:50:30 <elliott> so it's not really so much size-based as meaning-based
05:50:44 <monqy> thats one way to do it
05:51:04 <monqy> the way i was thinking is less size-based and more it is the structure and flow of the game
05:51:46 <monqy> another thing i was thinking is i could make multiple roguelikes each playing with a different concept
05:51:51 <elliott> i think in a way most roguelikes overdo and underdo the amount you need to think each turn
05:52:14 <monqy> i don't mind overdoing but underdoing is awful
05:52:20 <elliott> a game where you had to plan every single turn would be pretty boring because you need some element of repetition and structure for it to have an actual progression
05:52:49 <elliott> like, grinding is useful in very small doses as a pacing element, to bridge parts of difficulty
05:53:08 <elliott> but with most roguelikes it's about fifty times too much grinding in a row followed by a deluge of slowness
05:53:23 <monqy> i've never seen grinding done well so
05:53:28 <monqy> maybe it could be done well?? but
05:53:35 <monqy> i don't know what that would be like
05:53:58 <elliott> monqy: well im using grinding in the sense of just "obstacles that you generally know how to overcome"
05:54:13 <elliott> like monsters you've already fought etc.
05:54:39 <elliott> a game where you do a new thing every single turn would be kind of rubbish because there'd be absolutely no learning or improvement to it
05:54:46 <elliott> but the grinding is too random in existing roguelikes
05:54:52 <quintopia> i think no grinding is optimal. the fighting of randoms should be just the right amount for the story...never just for the aim of levelling
05:55:08 <monqy> different kind of grinding, quintopia
05:55:22 <elliott> i don't think i like the idea of experience levels at all
05:55:30 <elliott> you should just have a bag of variables that increase appropriately
05:55:32 <monqy> i don't like experience levels either
05:56:32 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sat Apr 21 06:57:04
05:56:37 <elliott> monqy: another thing i want is a magic system with some actual composition to it
05:56:42 <monqy> i think the closest thing to an experience system i've seen done well/near-well is brogue's enchantment system where you put enchantments into items to make them better
05:56:48 <quintopia> then again, i'd prefer to play DROD than a roguelike.
05:57:00 <elliott> just zapping a spell is boring
05:57:07 <elliott> zapping two and having their effects combined is much less boring
05:57:10 <monqy> i've seen a magic system with some composition (at least in a sense?) but it wasn't in a roguelike
05:57:10 <Sgeo> elliott, like the patch for NetHack where you mix potions based on colors?
05:57:15 <Sgeo> Although based on colors can be silly
05:57:29 <monqy> anyway if my roguelike has spells it'll have composition is one thing i decided a while ago
05:58:00 <Sgeo> What do composing spells look like?
05:58:11 <elliott> i don't actually know what i want combat to look like because
05:58:18 <elliott> but spells for everything is tedious
05:58:31 <monqy> melee can probably be interesting if done well
05:58:32 <elliott> i guess melee could be non-boring if you actually had to control things
05:58:37 <quintopia> Sgeo: if spells have environmental effects, their effects can stack, for instance
05:58:43 <elliott> like instead of just "stab" there are actually options at each point
05:59:39 <elliott> anyway i'm growing increasingly of the suspicion that monqy's game looks basically like my game
05:59:47 <monqy> it probably doesn't
06:00:14 <monqy> maybe it shares a lot of principles/ideas/whateveR??
06:00:31 <monqy> opinions of this is why other roguelikes are bad
06:00:37 <elliott> well i haven't heard you say anything i've disagreed with YET so
06:00:40 <elliott> say something disagreeable
06:01:03 <zzo38> I would have experience levels although you do not gain much for fighting (which mostly will waste time and other things if you try to earn experience points this way, and in addition might increase levels of the kind of creature fighting you if more appear faster than you); you gain more experience points for quests and other unique things
06:01:35 <monqy> i'm contemplating an identification-system-sort-of-thing for spells but it wouldn't just be normal identification. have you ever played treasure of the rudras?
06:02:06 <elliott> (the thing to guess is: no)
06:02:37 <zzo38> And if you fight too many of the single kind of creature, you will not earn any experience points from that one anymore, but their level will still increase slightly. You need to use tactics to avoid wasting time in order to win.
06:02:40 <monqy> it's an rpg and it has a spell system where spells are words and you write your own spellset
06:03:08 <monqy> and you have to perform some pretty basic linguistic analysis sort of stuff on the spells your enemies use to derive the forms to use and compose in your spells
06:03:54 <zzo38> monqy: Interesting ideas
06:04:40 <elliott> monqy: when can i play your roguelike
06:04:49 <monqy> and i thought "wow i'd like that sort of thing" but then "oh no having it fixed would be spoilery" so "i'd have to make it randomized and make the the player identify spells theirselves but that might be okay because it was fun in treasure of the rudras but maybe it won't work in roguelikes so i will have to see (it will be an adventurE)"
06:05:02 <monqy> elliott: i dont know maybe it will never be finished :(
06:05:49 <elliott> monqy: what programming language is it written in
06:05:52 <elliott> vagrant is written in python
06:05:59 <elliott> that's why vagrant is better than vagrant
06:06:23 <monqy> monqys mysterious language which may or may not ever be implemented
06:06:28 <monqy> or otherwise haskell
06:06:48 <monqy> but probably monqys mysteryouse language which may or may not ever be implemented
06:07:04 <monqy> #1 problem with implementing it: who knows what the design is? not me, monqy
06:07:16 <zzo38> monqy: If you use Haskell, would you ever intend to use my "extensible-data" package?
06:07:39 <elliott> monqy should implement my roguelike and i'll implement his and then we can both play the roguelikes we want without having to implement them
06:08:29 <zzo38> monqy: Look it up. It allows you to add fields of records, choices, items to lists, nodes to trees, etc, in different modules that do not have to know each other
06:09:45 <elliott> monqy: anyway vagrant was uh
06:09:52 <elliott> well it was sort of fun staying alive for ages
06:10:11 <elliott> but it was not the greatest roguelie
06:10:17 <zzo38> It consists of four modules: Data.Extensible.List, Data.Extensible.Product, Data.Extensible.Sum, Data.Extensible.Tree. The extensible lists require Template Haskell to work; extensible trees can optionally use Template Haskell to derive the root node although it is not required.
06:11:56 <elliott> monqy: anyway now i want to implement my roguelike
06:12:17 <zzo38> Are you able to invent it while sleeping?
06:12:39 <monqy> i will train myself to write my language spec and implementation in my sleep
06:12:50 <monqy> it will be perfect
06:13:02 <elliott> the problem with implementation is
06:13:08 <elliott> roguelike code is so ugly and uurgh
06:13:16 <monqy> that's why i have my own language
06:13:18 <quintopia> i will write a roguelike in redgreen
06:13:29 <elliott> unless you have a fancy system for combining them
06:13:32 <monqy> my own language will handle everything cleanly
06:13:43 <monqy> if doesn't handle everything cleanly: it's not my language
06:13:47 <quintopia> i want a language with a clean handle
06:13:50 <zzo38> elliott: It is why I suggested using extensible-data package
06:14:19 <zzo38> You may also want to implement some of the rules of Magic: the Gathering as well
06:16:27 <quintopia> zzo38: it is a good puzzle game. you should try it.
06:17:08 <zzo38> OK. I have other puzzles games too, though, including Hero Hearts, and some I made up myself
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06:18:46 <quintopia> there is time to play all the games
06:29:56 <zzo38> I also made up many new pieces in Hero Hearts, such as the dotted balloons (which create another object when punctured), more colors of blobs, reverse blobnets (which kill the hero when there isn't a blob on the playfield), bone (combine two bones to make a skull), bone-pack, boot heart, maker bridge, camera (copies whatever object it is pushed into), cross (Jesus saves), footprint block, jail (traps any object which enters), jumping balls,
06:32:28 <zzo38> kill counter (a wall until a certain number of creatures are killed; this can be good or bad depending on circumstances), maker wood (firewood that creates something other than fire when lit), lightning bolt (destroys or partially destroys an object it touches), low ceiling (which you cannot fly over or throw grenades over), pokeballs, rocks with holes, upsidedown hearts (which must be pushed over a rotator), worm eggs, and even more
06:33:43 <zzo38> Now the game has at least 180 different kind of pieces, many of which have multiple subtypes.
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06:42:09 <zzo38> Are some port numbers broken on this IRC?
07:01:47 <zzo38> (even Imakuni? has a computer, and on his day off he goes into his computer to think about the past)
07:11:23 <zzo38> My sister used to refer to a satellite dish as a "saddle plate", and Dewey Decimal System as "Dewey Dezmo Machine".
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07:42:48 <oerjan> <oklopol> "oerjan � oklopol: fix your client to use utf-8 okthxbye" no u
07:44:54 <oerjan> your messages show up broken in the logs. i think the above paste may be an example, although i'm not sure what that character is.
07:48:10 <ais523> my client doesn't understand it either
07:48:10 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
07:48:13 <ais523> so it may be broken UTF-8
07:49:01 <oerjan> i assume putty/irssi did something weird to it when pasting it, too
07:50:06 <pikhq> Could be using Xchat, with its really borken charset handling.
07:50:42 <oerjan> CTCP VERSION reply from oklopol: mIRC v6.34 Khaled Mardam-Bey
07:50:57 <oerjan> CTCP VERSION reply from oklopol: ( NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.nnscript.com :: www.esnation.com )
07:51:04 <oerjan> (actually in the other order)
07:58:39 <graue> i remember mIRC scripting... those were the days
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08:34:11 <zzo38> My Pokemon Card is difficult for some people
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10:13:42 <ais523> oh dear, I just came across zzo38 stumbling into the middle of a FOSS versus anti-FOSS flamewar: http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/25988/287889.aspx#287889
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10:44:18 <fungot> oerjan: if it is iterative?" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord
10:46:45 <fizzie> They switched our "measure how much electricity you've used" device to one of those remote-readable smart boxes, had forgotten to bring the 'got back afterwards.
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11:09:20 <olsner> "This is the guy who wanted to fork Firefox because it didn't handle gopher appropriately." :)
11:12:23 <olsner> someone talking about zzo38 on thedailywtf forums
11:13:00 <nortti> did zzo38 want to fork firefox because it didn't handle gopher?
11:14:53 <nortti> wait. Is vonkeror that fork?
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12:46:34 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31419
12:46:49 <nortti> why is HackEgo so slow?
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13:14:16 <itidus21> Thank god HackEgo isn't FOSS, it'd be even worse! Somehow. Apparently.
13:15:16 <HackEgo> I'm not slow, I'm big boned.
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15:02:18 <nortti> Does c2bf really implement only a subset of K&R C?
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15:44:22 <nortti> now I will have to write a preprocessor to it and write my own stdio.h
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15:59:43 <itidus21> speaking of K&R .. this pic surfaced http://oi40.tinypic.com/2wc31js.jpg
16:01:53 <nortti> ugh. makes me remember the time I had to translate one of my pretty large ansi c programs to k&r c because ack on my macminix box didn't know ansi c
16:02:33 <itidus21> the joke is that it contains hi
16:03:26 <itidus21> since hi is an important esolang motif lately
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16:17:50 <Madoka-Kaname> (I take your words and raise Malborge, author of unknown thing!)
16:18:01 <itidus21> i screenshotted the pdf file and edited hello, world into hi, world as some kind tomfoolery
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17:34:01 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: You should feel bad. Inventing CSS. How dare you.
17:36:53 <ais523> elliott: I don't know offhand, and you could look it up as easily as I could
17:38:13 <elliott> ais523: well, more importantly, can I buy voodoo dolls of them?
17:38:47 <elliott> ais523: btw, if you ever get the chance to watch monqy play crawl, take it
17:39:21 <ais523> why? is he really good, or really bad, or something?
17:39:24 <ais523> I could look up a ttyrec
17:39:44 <elliott> ais523: he plays by mostly pressing space all the time, which he has bound to a completely insane autofight macro
17:40:06 <ais523> elliott: autorobin, or something else?
17:40:18 <elliott> it takes multiple turns at a time
17:41:11 <elliott> ais523: he's squarelos on crawl.develz.org, FWIW
17:41:52 <elliott> ais523: also, i played crawl and it was really boring
17:42:13 <ais523> elliott: I got kicked from ##crawl-dev once for calling it repetitive
17:42:34 <elliott> mostly i pressed o and tab a lot
17:42:40 <elliott> and then died because i wasn't paying attention
17:43:43 <elliott> ais523: anyway, a ttyrec really wouldn't do it justice
17:43:57 <elliott> since over 50% of monqy playing crawl is monqy dying and modifying his script
17:44:50 <elliott> ais523: on that note, what's a good ttyrec player?
17:45:11 <ais523> elliott: second-best is termplay on Windows, ipbt on Linux or Mac OS X
17:46:21 <elliott> ==> Validating source files with md5sums...
17:46:21 <elliott> ipbt-r9253.tar.gz ... FAILED
17:46:58 <fizzie> I tried the 'ttyplay' thing that was in the Ubuntu "ttyrec" package, and it was kind of confuzzling and minimal.
17:47:01 <ais523> err, Linux version of termplay, I guess
17:47:05 <ais523> fizzie: it doesn't even have a rewind
17:47:15 <ion> http://i.imgur.com/eb7Iv.jpg
17:47:25 <elliott> meh, i'll just use ttyplay
17:47:34 <fizzie> It did have a speed control, though. I think.
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17:52:59 <elliott> ais523: here, this is a pretty representative ttyrec: http://crawl.develz.org/ttyrecs/squarelos/2012-04-21.04:18:39.ttyrec
17:53:19 <elliott> although he survives longer than usual
17:53:34 <elliott> ais523: btw, jettyplay doesn't display colours on that ttyrec, and prints a bunch of unknown/unsupported messages
17:53:41 <elliott> which ruins monqy's beautiful flashing square player character
17:54:03 <ais523> ah, OK, he must be using a weird terminal
17:54:12 <ais523> ttyrecs are inherently terminal-specific
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17:54:57 <elliott> ais523: just TERM=rxvt-unicode
17:55:00 <elliott> should be xterm-compatible
17:55:32 <ais523> what really annoys me is termcap entries doing something complex and terminal-specific when the terminal in question understands the VT100 codes just fine
17:55:36 <elliott> anyway, watch it with colour if you can; the flashing square is integral to the experience
17:55:50 <elliott> playing it in a urxvt with a console player should work, right?
17:55:55 <ais523> as in, being xterm-compatible is not really what's wanted, xterm has to be it-compatible
17:56:15 <ais523> and most console players parse the codes themself, I think only ttyplay doesn't
17:57:20 <elliott> indeed, works with ttyplay in urxvt here
17:57:39 <elliott> oh, also, he plays with the messages set to faux-german
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18:02:27 <impomatic> Can anyone identify the file format of the docs in this zip? http://www.forth.org/library/eforth_SOC/eforth_SOC_source/f83/insidf83.ZIP
18:06:03 <ais523> hmm, it's /mostly/ text
18:08:24 <elliott> ais523: btw, does crawl get any less boring once you get further in to the game?
18:08:59 <ais523> elliott: arguably yes, but you don't really get further into the game without being very spoilt, either on spoilers or on repeatedly dying to things
18:09:17 <ais523> and it's still not that much better
18:09:43 <ais523> it mostly just goes into the realm of annoying deaths that are either unavoidable, or avoidable but due to a typo or something rather than a lack of strategy
18:09:54 <elliott> oklopol: like nethack, but worse
18:10:25 <elliott> ais523: i hate spoilery games
18:11:17 <ais523> elliott: the worst part is that the game fully spoils most of the information about monsters but the most important things (speed, damage potential, attack potential, how quickly you can kill it)
18:12:41 <elliott> ais523: is brogue any good?
18:12:56 <ais523> don't know, never played it, haven't heard much about it
18:15:58 <elliott> 2011-05-16.txt:19:41:45: <ais523> elliott: you and your mentions of vagrant
18:22:17 <itidus21> I find it difficult to find motivation to play games as that acidic wash of aging strips away the meaning of works of fiction until they are just skeletons of philosophical stances garnered with pretty colours.
18:22:34 <itidus21> And in the end it comes down to tragedy and comedy I guess.
18:25:02 <elliott> ais523: hey, do you have a copy of vagrant?
18:25:21 <ais523> there may be one in the logs
18:25:36 <ais523> you did show bits of its early development to me, but I think it was pasted in IRC, or in a pastebin
18:26:42 <elliott> ais523: I've searched the logs
18:32:59 <Madoka-Kaname> impomatic, neither trid nor file is able to identify it
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18:34:23 <impomatic> Madoka-Kaname: thanks. I think they're from a Mac. The figures are actually MacDraw, not AutoCAD.
18:35:29 <ais523> impomatic: ooh, and it's using \r\r as a linebreak
18:35:37 <ais523> further evidence for some classic Mac program
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18:50:29 <Ngevd> `welcome impomatic
18:50:32 <HackEgo> impomatic: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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18:56:03 <elliott> impomatic has been here for years :P
18:56:29 <HackEgo> elliott: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
18:58:02 <fizzie> Ngevd: 2009-03-27 20:04:06 -!- impomatic has joined #esoteric
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18:58:22 <fungot> Selected style: iwcs (Irregular Webcomic scripts)
18:58:27 <fungot> Ngevd: there's the internet, adam. it could just apply a jolly good. nothing has a bite that big, long turn, we be evadin' pursuit, you're sorely mistaken, my good man. all hobbits are hard.
18:58:43 <Ngevd> All hobbits are hard indeed.
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19:13:10 <elliott> Ngevd: You should watch me play Crawl. It's like watching paint dry.
19:13:32 <Ngevd> elliott, can't, too busy watching paint dry
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19:15:52 <itidus21> fungot: do you care what i say?
19:15:52 <fungot> itidus21: i can think of one good thing! compuchronic transfer, direct neural interfaces, enter and look, something of it, fast, highly technological terror you've constructed. the ability to be captured the palladium
19:16:24 <elliott> ais523: You should watch paint dry. It's like watching me play Crawl.
19:17:48 <itidus21> fungot: There was an Old Man of Asta, Who possessed a large cow, but he lost her; But they said, 'Don't you see She has rushed up a tree? You invidious Old Man of Asta!'
19:17:48 <fungot> itidus21: hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, h
19:18:40 <elliott> `addquote <fungot> itidus21: hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, h
19:18:40 <fungot> elliott: of all, the first one was a complete the binding the crocodile's jaws are tied us up and left us here! we're the last! it is!
19:18:42 <HackEgo> 843) <fungot> itidus21: hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, h
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19:26:05 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs* jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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19:28:45 <ion> Oh, i missed you playing Crawl.
19:29:05 <elliott> i'm not sure if i consider the level of gameplay crawl has offered me so far to be enough to constitute "playing"
19:29:43 <elliott> "elliott" on crawl.develz.or
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19:36:44 <elliott> btw i barely know how to play crawl in case that isn't clear
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19:38:27 <ion> Hi, you have a 0.10-a0-1253-ge187e2a save game: [T]ransfer your save to the latest version (0.11-a0-1260-gb7668d5)?
19:38:38 <ion> My old game still seems to be there.
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19:41:49 <elliott> ion: why is crawl so boring
19:43:09 <oklopol> why must programming be so damn boring, i have so many programs that i want to make :(
19:43:25 <ion> I seem to have an XL 23 HoPr.
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19:44:19 <elliott> hmm, where is ion on the game list
19:44:41 <ion> I didn’t start playing, i just checked out the old game and quit.
19:44:55 <ion> And i was on the akrasiac server.
19:44:57 <elliott> good decision, crawl sucks
19:45:04 <elliott> im on this one because monqy is
19:45:26 <ion> I have an account there, too. I don’t remember why i started the game on akrasiac. Perhaps it had a newer snapshot.
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20:20:55 <elliott> ais523: You should add clog to the access list.
20:22:17 <elliott> ais523: What, you just want to taunt it by leaving it as an op until it crashes?
20:23:09 <elliott> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-04-20#180206
20:23:12 <ais523> lament showed up in #nethack recently
20:23:21 <ais523> and lots of people started asking him if he was the same lament as in various other channels
20:23:25 <zzo38> Do you Pokemon Card instead?
20:23:50 <elliott> ais523: He was here a few days prior to that, to kick pikhq.
20:23:57 <zzo38> Has anyone figured out the game by now?
20:24:02 <elliott> Maybe he'll just visit us every few days and kick/ban/op someone at random.
20:25:41 <elliott> ais523: What's a good roguelike that doesn't end in "Hack"?
20:25:54 <ais523> Shiren the Wanderer for DS?
20:26:55 <elliott> ais523: Does that thing still exist?
20:27:12 <ais523> I wouldn't have expected it to spontaneously stop existing
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20:27:30 <ais523> we /should/ get elliott to play ADOM, it'll be hilarious
20:27:43 <elliott> How can I resist when you say things like that?!
20:27:46 <elliott> Is there an online server?
20:28:14 <zzo38> If there is an online server, why does it matter what operating system it runs on?
20:28:23 <elliott> seems yes; http://ancardia.ath.cx/adom_server_info.txt
20:28:32 <elliott> but most things with online servers probably run on Linux
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20:29:18 <ais523> elliott: http://ancardia.ath.cx/
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20:29:56 <ais523> Note that ADOM will not launch if your terminal size is something else than 80x25 characters!
20:30:19 <elliott> Your terminal size appears to be 80x24 characters. A 80x25 -sized terminal is REQUIRED for playing ADOM on this server. Please correct your terminal settings and try again. You may want to consult the readme, available at the main menu, and at http://ancardia.ath.cx/adom_server_info.txt
20:30:53 <zzo38> ais523: Actually, I think ADOM still works if there is more than 25 rows, although you need to have the same terminal size when loading a save game as you do when you start the game, otherwise it won't work.
20:31:01 <elliott> I keep giving it the "launch ADOM" command
20:31:04 <elliott> and it just bounces me back to the memory
20:31:15 <ais523> also, punishment for violating a conduct is that it kills the process, it seems
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20:31:30 <ais523> elliott: this server is entirely within the attitude of the rest of the game…
20:31:46 <elliott> maybe I'll just install it locally and termcast
20:32:00 <elliott> ais523: how do you termcast, again?
20:32:17 <elliott> hmm, ADOM is closed source?
20:32:26 <ais523> script -f >( cat ./ratry_login - | nc -q5 noway.ratry.ru 31337 > /dev/null ) "$@"
20:32:29 <ais523> yes, it's closed source
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20:32:41 <elliott> what format is ratry_login again?
20:32:46 <ais523> hello username password
20:33:20 <elliott> Try `nc --help' for more information.
20:33:20 <elliott> Script started, file is /dev/fd/63
20:33:30 <elliott> what does -q do in your netcat?
20:34:09 <ais523> elliott: oh, it actually kills the termcast process when the thing being termcasted ends
20:34:27 <ais523> without it, the termcast process has a tendency to stick around, defying all logic, such as the lack of a controlling terminal
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20:34:57 <elliott> [elliott@dinky tmp]$ script -f >( cat ./ratry_login - | nc noway.ratry.ru 31337 > /dev/null ) adom
20:34:57 <elliott> Script started, file is /dev/fd/63
20:35:00 <elliott> err, why didn't adom start?
20:35:04 <elliott> it just put me back at my prompt
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20:35:26 <ais523> elliott: is your terminal exactly 80 by 25?
20:35:53 <elliott> adom starts if i just $ adom
20:35:57 <elliott> but not in the script thing there
20:36:08 <elliott> does "hello username password" work to create a new account?
20:36:30 <zzo38> Maybe they could add other challenges too, such as Level1-man (you lose if you advance an experience level), modified Iron-man (start in Infinite Dungeon and not allowed to use upstairs command), and the game where you cannot carry more than a certain weight limit of equipment.
20:36:59 <ais523> or, hmm, people haven't figured out the logic behind termcast's account system yet
20:37:13 <ais523> the username comes up on the menu, at least; it's not clear if the password does anything or not
20:37:46 <elliott> er, oops, I think I broadcasted a password I use a lot to termcast by thinking the nc had finished when it hadn't; I killed the process now, though, and nobody was watching
20:38:17 <elliott> ais523: OK, I'm ehADOM on termcast
20:39:53 <itidus21> so someone has suggested i might infact be a narcissist.. so i will look into it
20:39:54 <ais523> I, umm, don't actually know
20:39:58 <ais523> does the numpad work? what about arrow keys?
20:40:09 <ais523> btw, ADOM has way more commands than NetHack
20:40:10 <zzo38> I think I have read something like that, that the author might sell the source-codes for ADOM for one million dollars and then you can open-sourced if you want
20:40:11 <elliott> but those can't do diagonal
20:40:28 <zzo38> Turn on NumLock you can push 123456789 to move including diagonal
20:40:34 <elliott> is this some kind of world map
20:40:40 <zzo38> Yes you start on the world map
20:40:50 <zzo38> Use the downstairs command to enter a location.
20:41:06 <ais523> oh, we have someone who actually knows the controls here
20:41:08 <zzo38> Push e for eating, you can also pray for satiation by pushing _ if it is necessary
20:41:08 <ais523> that's surprisingly useful
20:42:25 <zzo38> Push m for acid if your character is Drakeling; however, this decreases your satiation level.
20:42:34 <elliott> is it just me or is there nothing interesting around
20:42:39 <ais523> try looking for a cave entrance
20:42:47 <elliott> will that be on the world map?
20:43:19 <zzo38> Something labeled * or o will be a location you can enter which contains something other than just the landscape
20:43:36 <ais523> elliott: OK, the asterisks are the interesting places, and the os
20:43:48 <elliott> aha, this looks more roguelike
20:44:10 <ais523> / is open door, I think
20:44:17 <elliott> i like how i transform everything into mangled heaps when i kill them
20:44:40 <zzo38> The symbol / can mean an open door or a pile of arrows
20:44:55 <elliott> there's a command to clean your ears????
20:44:56 <ais523> there's a command to clean out your ears
20:45:15 <zzo38> Yes, in case you plugged them you can clear your ear by pushing E
20:45:30 <zzo38> You can also push ! to dip something into a potion
20:45:30 <ais523> on a single key, no less!
20:45:36 <ais523> zzo38: how do you wear armour?
20:45:46 <zzo38> ais523: Push i and then c
20:46:08 <ais523> zzo38: ah, why didn't I think of that?
20:46:15 <ais523> elliott: stones, the unit of weight
20:46:29 <elliott> oh well, I'll just assume studded leather armor is better than thick furs
20:46:30 * ais523 does not play ADOM, but it's occasionally fun to watch other people get traumatized by it
20:46:56 <zzo38> elliott: If worn, they will tell you the bonus/penalty applied.
20:47:04 <elliott> is there really no equivalent of nethack's ctrl+walk
20:47:17 <elliott> aaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaa
20:47:40 <zzo38> One more thing is, push T or function keys to set tactics meaning you get bonus/penalty for attacks, damage, and defense.
20:47:41 <elliott> conveniently, pgdown and pgup aren't working
20:47:43 <elliott> so i'll just pick at random
20:47:48 <ais523> elliott: apparently this screen is /also/ really crucial for your survival
20:48:41 <ion> elliott: Yeah, the last time i looked there wasn’t a ctrl+walk. :-\ But the autoexplore functionality mostly makes up for it.
20:48:48 <elliott> oh, there's an autoexplore?
20:48:51 <elliott> this is ADOM, btw, not nethack
20:49:17 <ion> Ah, ok. Sorry for picking IRC lines out of context and inventing my own context for them. :-P
20:49:31 <elliott> god i love large bat corpse
20:50:10 -!- RocketJSquirrel has set topic: <elliott> god i love large bat corpse | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
20:50:25 <zzo38> Bone does not provide much satiation, but they can be used to repair skeletons and so on
20:51:03 <elliott> ais523: i was expecting orcish war cries to foretell uhhh
20:51:06 <elliott> something a lot more threatening than that
20:51:14 <elliott> why can't I pagedown/pageup?!?!
20:51:34 <ais523> maybe it has to be /numpad/ + and -?
20:51:39 <elliott> except it does on this screen
20:52:48 <zzo38> In ADOM, some creatures will be created neutral (meaning not hostile toward you); you will know it is the case since if you try to hit them it will ask you if you are sure. You can then, if you wish, try to talk to them by C but beware some creatures are unable to speak
20:53:59 <zzo38> After you quit the game, then before starting a new game you may want to look at configurations in case you want to edit them.
20:54:11 <elliott> quit??? i'm playing to win
20:55:01 <elliott> why is there a door to nothing
20:55:38 <zzo38> Even if you save game push S to continue later, it is still possible to edit configurations and then when you load the save game file it will use the updated configuration.
20:55:43 <ais523> elliott: you expect me to be able to help?
20:56:01 <elliott> ais523: more than help can help himself, yes
20:56:38 <elliott> I don't suppose there's a travel command, either
20:56:41 <zzo38> During the game push ? for help, please.
20:56:55 <zzo38> elliott: To automatically move a far distance, push w and direction
20:57:28 <zzo38> But it won't work while sickness, poison, and so on.
20:58:09 <elliott> ais523: err, it seems like going down and up the stairs changed the terrain
20:58:25 <ais523> elliott: no persistent levels where you are, I guess
20:58:32 <ais523> I think it must be the Infinite Dungeon, from the flavour messages
20:58:36 <zzo38> elliott: If you go down and up stairs and it is different, then you are in the infinite dungeon.
20:58:39 <ais523> so no persistent levels would make sense
20:58:42 <elliott> ais523: but there's no upstairs!
20:58:58 <ais523> elliott: I guess you'll have to go down, then
20:58:59 <elliott> hmm, so wait, how do you get out of the infinite dungeon?
20:59:02 <zzo38> elliott: Maybe you just didn't find it.
20:59:04 <elliott> keep switching levels until you get enough upstairs?
20:59:08 <zzo38> You can go upstairs
20:59:20 <elliott> zzo38: afaict, I've mapped out the entire level
20:59:21 <ais523> ADOM almost certainly has secret doors
20:59:53 <zzo38> Yes there is secret doors; you can try to kick the wall (push k) or search the wall (push s), or use scrolls of mapping or whatever else.
21:00:35 <zzo38> Use C-t to activate a trap that you are standing on.
21:00:49 <elliott> zzo38: you shouldn't have told me that :P
21:02:24 <zzo38> Push p for payment, q for quest, t for throw, d for drop, r for read, z for wand, Z for spell, m for acid (Drakelings only), e for eating, a for skills, g for give item, C to talk to someone, x for experience points, and $ to count your money.
21:02:47 <elliott> is there any way to view previous messages?
21:02:52 <zzo38> Actually you can kick nearly anything in this game; wall, door, floor, stairs, creature, altar, forge, items, and so on
21:02:59 <zzo38> elliott: Push : and m
21:03:14 <zzo38> (You may want to edit the configuration to set it to a single key if you want)
21:03:46 <ais523> elliott: it's not NetHack
21:03:50 <zzo38> elliott: Try! Push k and 5 and see that it won't work
21:03:52 * ais523 wonders what control-D . does in NetHack
21:04:23 <zzo38> (Anytime it ask you a direction to target, push 5 to target your own location)
21:05:04 <elliott> god i love dwarven sausage
21:05:21 <elliott> ais523: so, err, how infinite is this cave actually?
21:05:29 <elliott> infinite in the "I will never get out unless I find an upstairs" sense?
21:05:38 <ais523> elliott: until the internal counters overflow, I think
21:06:11 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.25926
21:06:17 <zzo38> elliott: Not necessarily; find the stairs there must be one, even if it is being obscured by creatures or items
21:06:44 <ais523> elliott: doomed is a status, I don't see why you'd have incurred it yet
21:08:13 <ais523> oh, don't kill cats, it makes the game much harder later on
21:08:37 <elliott> that's not the kind of advice help was looking for!
21:09:57 <zzo38> Actually if you kill anyone can potentially make it harder because it will make any new creature of the same kind generated to be a higher levels; so use moderation if there is a lot of a certain kind of creature to be found in the game.
21:10:21 <zzo38> (This rule doesn't apply to uniques)
21:10:53 <elliott> hmm, where's the dungeon level indicator?
21:11:19 <zzo38> elliott: Near the bottom right of the screen
21:13:20 <zzo38> Unlike NetHack, ADOM does not include the kitchen sink.
21:14:07 <ais523> elliott: did you /accomplish/ anything?
21:14:28 <elliott> ais523: umm, I levelled up a lot
21:14:34 <elliott> ais523: I'm not sure how you accomplish anything in this game
21:14:57 <ais523> given to you in towns, mostly
21:14:59 <zzo38> elliott: In the town (labeled o). Talk to someone they will tell you a quest
21:15:03 <elliott> hmm, I became a coward somehow
21:15:10 <ais523> oh, and some of them are mutually exclusive
21:15:25 <zzo38> elliott: Pushing F7 or T makes coward, push a different function key
21:15:32 <zzo38> Push F4 to remove coward and set to normal
21:16:19 <elliott> how is it even possible to have negative HP?!
21:17:26 <zzo38> If you have negative HP you are dead
21:18:21 <elliott> ais523: well, that was... fun
21:18:36 <elliott> I have a feeling I missed the worst parts
21:19:05 <ais523> elliott: right, the death even made some sort of logical sense
21:19:40 <zzo38> Try some of my "small roguelike" game, they are for DOS but you might be able to run them on a DOS emulator or modify them a bit to get them to compile on FreeBASIC
21:19:51 <elliott> did my HP go down significantly on the first hit?
21:19:54 <elliott> probably my own fault for not noticing
21:20:03 <elliott> zzo38: I've already played KING
21:20:09 <zzo38> elliott: Yes you have to notice it otherwise is no good
21:20:46 <zzo38> elliott: O, you have done so? Do you like this game? The other small roguelike game I made is called 100LEVEL which deliberately contains only a few instructions
21:23:04 <zzo38> Could you win at either game?
21:24:05 <nortti> elliott: where can I find them?
21:26:00 <nortti> zzo38: where can I find your small roguelike games?
21:26:55 <zzo38> nortti: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/RL/KING.ZIP http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/100level.zip
21:35:05 <zzo38> nortti: Does this work OK to you?
21:36:42 <zzo38> I mean, this computer games.
21:37:02 <nortti> I am still compiling DOSBOX
21:40:13 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=aKMrBaXJvMs holy crap this is cool
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21:45:44 <elliott> fizzie: Deewiant: might be interested in/have already seen ^
21:53:28 <nortti> zzo38: why is king under gpl3 and 100level under public domain?
21:53:50 <zzo38> nortti: Just because I put them that way; I do not remember the reason at this time.
21:56:04 <ion> elliott: viznut’s stuff tends to be.
21:56:26 <zzo38> For 100LEVEL, you might want to change the game mode, since TURNS is probably the easiest one, while BALANCE is the most difficult. Also, just try different letters on the keyboard to see what works; I won't tell you the function of each key you have to figure that out by yourself, but I will tell you that all functions are assigned (case-insensitive) letters; sometimes other keys are synonyms for them
21:57:03 <elliott> ion: Yeah, we did a lot of playing with the one-line audio stuff in here some months ago.
21:57:06 <elliott> (Or were you here for that?)
21:58:07 <elliott> Proceed with installation? [Y/n]
22:02:09 <elliott> whoa, even // and ** produce cool output
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22:21:54 <ais523> bleh, too much xkcd (i.e. a nonzero amount); I'm expecting someone to come out with "so it has come to this" at any moment
22:22:44 <elliott> am not sure you realise that those things do not originate from xkcd
22:23:18 <ais523> elliott: indeed, xkcd just brings them into the public eye and makes sure they get referenced obnoxiously a lot
22:23:18 <oerjan> i was sort of disappointed that googling "so we meet again" didn't put something from tvtropes at the top
22:23:28 <oerjan> (or anywhere on the first page)
22:23:48 <elliott> xkcd references things because they're culturally ubiquitous
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22:24:25 <elliott> look! there's even an Onion article! http://www.theonion.com/articles/my-old-nemesisso-we-meet-again,17647/
22:24:26 <ais523> yes, but being culturally ubiquitous is different from being obnoxiously quoted
22:24:36 <ais523> elliott: the rest of that /wasn't/ xkcd references
22:24:54 -!- Nisstyre has changed nick to nisstyre.
22:25:05 -!- nisstyre has changed nick to Nisstyre.
22:25:14 <ais523> on that note, I'm reading xkcds I haven't read; 1041 almost made me laugh
22:25:15 <elliott> i give up on operation convincing ais523 that "so we meet again" and "my old nemesis" were not popularised by xkcd in any way
22:25:18 <ais523> which is pretty unusual
22:25:21 <oerjan> i was actually thinking of an old larson cartoon. and also colonel haken.
22:25:25 <ais523> elliott: err, I just said that they weren't
22:25:35 <ais523> the xkcd is specifically "so it has come to this", which is less culturally ubiquitous
22:25:43 <ais523> but it would fit in quite well in that conversation
22:26:12 <oerjan> of course _both_ of those are obviously referring something already ubiquitous
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22:30:04 * ais523 notices that xkcd references have themselves become enough part of culture that I've seen people make references to not-yet-published xkcds in the hope they'll turn out relevant
22:30:27 <ais523> there's always a /chance/
22:30:36 <ais523> and the great thing is, people rarely check the number and just assume they know the one you mean
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22:46:05 <nortti> zzo38: did you make vonkeror because firefox didn't have good enough gopher support?
22:46:27 <zzo38> nortti: No, I made it for the other reason.
22:46:34 -!- impomatic has left.
22:46:38 <zzo38> Does the game work now?
22:47:15 <nortti> zzo38: by the way why did you create vonkeror
22:47:25 <zzo38> nortti: I made parts of it
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23:21:25 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least eight of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
23:21:40 <oerjan> hm i sense some inflation
23:21:41 <HackEgo> Sweden is the suburb capital of Norway. It's where all the Nobel prizes are announced, except the Math Prize.
23:22:17 <HackEgo> Norway is the suburb capital of Sweden. It's where the Nobel Peace Prize is announced.
23:22:32 <HackEgo> Europe is a Finlandic country. More details as they become available.
23:22:40 <elliott> `learn Europe is the national anthem of Kosovo.
23:23:26 <elliott> `pastelogs Europe is the national anthem
23:23:50 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1830
23:24:18 <elliott> `learn Europe is the national anthem of the Republic of Kosovo.
23:24:29 -!- nortti_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:25:29 <oerjan> `echo "You have been reported to the House Un-American Activities Committee" > wisdom/internationale
23:25:32 <HackEgo> "You have been reported to the House Un-American Activities Committee" > wisdom/internationale
23:25:37 <oerjan> `run echo "You have been reported to the House Un-American Activities Committee" > wisdom/internationale
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23:27:02 <oerjan> elliott: it's what wikipedia uses
23:27:39 <RocketJSquirrel> In the McCarthy era, the House of Representatives had a possy of dickbags.
23:27:46 <RocketJSquirrel> They were called the House Un-American Activities Committee.
23:28:26 <elliott> `quote domesticated canines
23:28:30 <HackEgo> 135) <fungot> ais523: killer bunnies can be harmed by domesticated canines only.
23:29:27 <oerjan> "The duration of copyright in France is 70 years following the end of the year when the author died, plus (for musical works) 6 years and 152 days to compensate for World War I, and 8 years and 120 days to compensate for World War II respectively."
23:30:10 <elliott> hmm, can we extrapolate from that to figure out how long WWIII will last?
23:30:17 <oerjan> (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Internationale)
23:30:40 <oerjan> well ww2 didn't last >= 8 years...
23:31:15 <ais523> isn't there some small village on the english/scottish border that was fighting WWII up until a few years ago, or is that an urban legend?
23:31:36 <nortti> seems to have lasted 8 years
23:32:34 <oerjan> nortti: ww2 started in 1939
23:33:35 <nortti> 1937 was when conflict between china and japan began and it is consisdered to be part of ww2. in europe it started in 1939
23:33:39 <oerjan> btw that quote above is to explain why the internationale _still_ is copyrighted in france
23:34:46 <nortti> really? that's just insane
23:35:05 <elliott> nortti: If "it is considered to be part of WWII", then WWII cannot have started after that.
23:35:14 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:35:18 <elliott> I misread what you two were disagreeing about.
23:37:29 <nortti> "In 2005, Le Chant du Monde , the corporation administering the authors' rights, asked Pierre Merejkowsky , the film director and an actor of Insurrection / résurrection , to pay €1,000 for whistling the song for seven seconds." from http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Internationale
23:39:13 <nortti> it is 7 seconds for fucks sake
23:43:25 <nortti> `? The House Un-American
23:43:25 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
23:43:28 <HackEgo> The House Un-American? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:46:18 -!- Tod-Autojoined has changed nick to TodPunk.
23:46:44 * elliott lives in a House Un-American
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23:52:32 <HackEgo> elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things?
23:54:08 <HackEgo> Finns are helpful, albeit grossly overpopulated (cf. 'Finland').
00:01:53 <HackEgo> C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault
00:04:06 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry
00:12:27 <HackEgo> Haskell is preferred by 9 out of 10 esoteric programmers. Ask your GP today! http://learnyouahaskell.com/
00:12:48 <oerjan> `run echo 'No instance for (Wisdom IRC) \ arising from a use of `wisdom' \ Possible fix: add an instance declaration for (Wisdom IRC) \ In the expression: wisdom (Proxy :: Proxy IRC)' > wisdom/haskell
00:12:51 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ bash: -c: line 0: `echo 'No instance for (Wisdom IRC) \ arising from a use of `wisdom' \ Possible fix: add an instance declaration for (Wisdom IRC) \ In the expression: wisdom (Proxy :: Proxy IRC)' > wisdom/haskell'
00:13:51 <oerjan> `run echo "No instance for (Wisdom IRC) \\ arising from a use of `wisdom' \\ Possible fix: add an instance declaration for (Wisdom IRC) \\ In the expression: wisdom (Proxy :: Proxy IRC)" > wisdom/haskell
00:13:53 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
00:14:03 <oerjan> `run echo "No instance for (Wisdom IRC) \\ arising from a use of \`wisdom' \\ Possible fix: add an instance declaration for (Wisdom IRC) \\ In the expression: wisdom (Proxy :: Proxy IRC)" > wisdom/haskell
00:14:17 <HackEgo> No instance for (Wisdom IRC) \ arising from a use of `wisdom' \ Possible fix: add an instance declaration for (Wisdom IRC) \ In the expression: wisdom (Proxy :: Proxy IRC)
00:15:09 <lambdabot> mueval-core: internal error: PAP object entered!
00:15:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:17:02 <lambdabot> mueval-core: internal error: PAP object entered!
00:17:27 <elliott> `run echo "Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'" >wisdom/haskell
00:17:30 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
00:17:38 <elliott> `run echo "Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \\ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'" >wisdom/haskell
00:17:41 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
00:17:50 <elliott> `run echo "Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \\ arising from a use of implicit parameter \`?haskell'" >wisdom/haskell
00:17:59 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
00:20:29 <elliott> oerjan: ps i see you've been fully indoctrinated into the reflection school of thought
00:21:34 <oerjan> ...that, or i was trying to make the error message particularly ridiculous...
00:22:24 <oerjan> obviously someone of skill could make that much worse
00:22:30 <elliott> oerjan: Have I mentioned we need special syntax for proxen?
00:22:55 <elliott> Well, writing reflect (Proxy :: Proxy p) all over the place is really awful.
00:23:01 <elliott> It'd be nice if we could just write reflect ~p or such.
00:23:09 <elliott> So ~t --> (Proxy :: Proxy t).
00:23:42 <zzo38> I think that is the problem of the lack of good macros in Haskell in general
00:25:04 <oerjan> elliott: hm this could obviously be improved if we had the :: sections i've been thinking of before
00:25:26 <oerjan> then you could let reflect (:: p)
00:26:19 <oerjan> since (:: p) = (\x -> x :: p) which has type (p ->) p, that would be of the required form
00:27:11 <elliott> oerjan: best of all, it would even be a correct type signature for the entire thing
00:28:34 <elliott> Does anyone know a good graphical side-by-side comparison/diff tool?
00:29:37 -!- hagb4rd2 has quit (Quit: hagb4rd2).
00:30:05 <elliott> vimdiff uses some pretty unreadable background colours here...
00:30:40 <RocketJSquirrel> Still, I only use 'diff', because I'm not some kind of wuss.
00:31:45 <elliott> Hey, what's the standard off-white foreground colour used in xterm?
00:34:36 <elliott> What does it mean if every few letters I type, my cursor switches from insert to override mode and back????
00:36:39 <oerjan> elliott: btw (reflect x :: p) would also be shorter, for whatever x = undefined you choose
00:36:58 <elliott> oerjan: I don't like undefined.
00:37:12 <oerjan> actually you could make that x = Proxy
00:37:19 <oerjan> just as long as it's polymorphic
00:37:20 <elliott> Err... I also can't press altgr+2 to switch to the 2nd desktop. soething is wrong here.
00:37:42 <oerjan> wait id should also work
00:37:46 <olsner> you're probably holding down the control key or something
00:39:03 <oerjan> (reflect id :: p), (reflect [] :: p), are some of the possibilities. i don't recall any shorter predefined ones.
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00:41:27 <elliottasdf> After hard-rebooting and trying to log in, it says my password is incorrect
00:41:29 <oerjan> <oerjan> (reflect id :: p), (reflect [] :: p), are some of the possibilities. i don't recall any shorter predefined ones.
00:41:35 <elliottasdf> I can enter it into the username field without problems
00:41:41 <nortti> i have written very simple stdio.h for c2bf and I am currectly working on a simple c preproceasor
00:41:55 <olsner> elliottasdf: maybe your password is not what you think it is
00:42:07 <elliottasdf> olsner: Yes, very helpful, thank you, seeing as I've entered it N times today.
00:42:17 <olsner> maybe you're not even elliott
00:43:59 <nortti> elliott: what os are you using?
00:44:21 <elliottasdf> Arch Linux, kernel version 3.2.2; login is via the standard VT login.
00:45:22 <elliottasdf> Two completely random, unexplainable behaviours in direct succession.
00:45:39 <elliottasdf> I think I have a USB hard drive with an Arch installation ISO on it.
00:45:52 <elliottasdf> Do you think it's worth a try to mount my Linux partition and reset my password with it?
00:45:56 <olsner> oh, maybe it's a bug in the key logger
00:48:02 <nortti> elliottasdf: try booting from live cd and setting second field in your /etc/passwd entry as empty
00:48:12 <Sgeo> Hi elliottasdf
00:48:15 <elliottasdf> Easier to chroot in and use passwd(1), no?
00:48:27 <Sgeo> Switching to CL and learning Another System Definition Facility?
00:48:27 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
00:48:43 <Sgeo> ....jokes might be a bad idea I guess, sorry
00:49:05 <elliottasdf> I'm not in *that* bad a mood. Although that one would make my day worse no matter how it was going.
00:49:06 <HackEgo> 78) <fedoragirl> My mascot is a tree of broccoli.
00:49:49 <nortti> I petsonally thik editing /etc/passwd is easier
00:50:14 <Sgeo> Editing password from LiveCD?
00:50:16 <Sgeo> I've done that
00:50:23 <HackEgo> 513) <Phantom_Hoover> You realise the micromanagement it took to make quintopia encrust my silver throne with emeralds rather than a jug?
00:50:39 <Sgeo> Read some forum post suggesting to chroot to the system on HD then use passwd
00:50:56 <Sgeo> Seemed to work
00:51:17 <elliottasdf> The insert keys are coming from inside the house.
00:51:26 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
00:51:42 <elliottasdf> I booted the live CD, typed "ls " and — I swear to god — ^[[2~ appeared after ls and before the space.
00:51:56 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:52:13 <elliottasdf> Unplugged the keyboard, plugged back in, same behaviour, what the fuck?!
00:52:18 <Sgeo> "Fixing partner's lost password: Boot into LiveCD, chroot into HD, use passwd. Tried unsuccessful options such as logging into recovery (on my machine), and pondered editing /etc/shadow directly but didn't know exactly what to change."
00:52:34 <elliottasdf> In fact, it seems that "s" is the only key affected.
00:52:39 <elliottasdf> Sgeo: That's irrelevant now, it's something to do with the keyboard.
00:52:57 <Sgeo> Change your password to something without an s
00:53:50 <Sgeo> I should read the update
00:53:55 <Sgeo> I read part of it, but got distracted
00:54:10 <elliottasdf> olsner: nortti: Any ideas what that could be?
00:54:51 <elliottasdf> Took off & replaced keycap on "s"; nothing unusual, same behaviour.
00:55:35 <elliottasdf> ...and pressing the insert key only actually works half the time.
00:55:42 <elliottasdf> Like, literally alternating nothing/it appears/nothing/it appears.
00:55:48 <nortti> try different keyboard
00:57:49 <nortti> try opening up keyboard and cleaning contacts
00:57:53 <elliottasdf> Took keycap off insert key. Now "s" produces "as[INSERT]".
00:59:54 <elliottasdf> It does sound like something's up with the circuit, though.
01:00:02 <elliottasdf> ISTR that the connections are laid out in a rather nonsensical manner.
01:00:04 <Sgeo> What does a do?
01:02:03 <itidus21> so your keyboard might be messing up your password entry :-?
01:03:11 <elliottasdf> How to fix it is less so, especially since taking off all the keycaps would probably result in my fingers becoming bloody messes.
01:04:07 <itidus21> i hope it's not a laptop ... that would be positively annoying
01:05:04 <itidus21> my kb has keys which can be lifted with a butterknife
01:05:42 <oerjan> elliottasdf: oh hm btw about reflect - wouldn't you usually call it as reify ... (\p -> ... reflect p ...) ?
01:05:47 <itidus21> i remember the agony trying to fix the spacebar
01:05:54 <oerjan> so no explicit Proxy needed
01:06:08 <elliottasdf> If you can do that, you can just do let p = x in ... p ...
01:06:18 <elliottasdf> The whole point is that you propagate the info through types.
01:06:33 <elliottasdf> The only thing you use the initial proxy for is to unify the types correctly.
01:07:01 <elliottasdf> Anyway, if anyone has any ideas that don't involve taking off every keycap, they'd be really really appreciated...
01:07:31 <oerjan> "the fast implementation ascends from the ranks of completely unportable black magic to being merely mostly unportable black magic" :D
01:09:29 <zzo38> I don't like the way those reflection stuff works; I had a better solution in Ibtlfmm where values can be made into types by {} around it and types into kinds by {} around it but it is not implemented as far as I know
01:09:31 <oerjan> elliottasdf: um, i don't see anything in the API that _forbids_ using the passed-in p as the proxy for reflect.
01:09:52 <oerjan> in fact the example does so
01:09:53 <elliottasdf> oerjan: I said it was _pointless_, and not what you usually do.
01:10:05 <elliottasdf> oerjan: Because you would have to pass the bloomin' p around everywhere as a parameter!
01:10:07 <zzo38> elliottasdf: Yes it probably does work better than before, but still it isn't sensible to me the way it is done in Haskell
01:10:10 <elliottasdf> If you do that, you can just pass the value itself.
01:10:43 <elliottasdf> foo :: (Reifies s Config) => IO (MyThing s)
01:10:50 <elliottasdf> (where MyThing's type parameter is phantom)
01:10:58 <elliottasdf> then you can't do anything like that, you must construct your own proxy.
01:11:46 <oerjan> elliottasdf: oh hm reflect (:: p) is _not_ of type p. because that's really (:: s).
01:13:25 <zzo38> Maybe this way better: data DynamicMonoid (x :: *) (_ :: {x}) (_ :: {x}) :: * = DynamicMonoid x;
01:13:47 <zzo38> (But it won't work in Haskell)
01:14:14 <elliottasdf> zzo38: I see you are still determined to reinvent Agda without looking at it.
01:14:52 <zzo38> elliottasdf: Yes I did make a mistake, it should be (_ :: {x -> x -> x})
01:15:30 <zzo38> I did look at Agda; it fails a few things I was looking for too, and it requires Unicode, and so on.
01:15:51 <lambdabot> elliott says: "with a lot of unicode" is like agda's @faq. "yes, agda can do that with a lot of unicode!"
01:16:36 <zzo38> Even if it has some features like Agda or Coq, it isn't any of them.
01:17:56 <elliottasdf> You know who knew about keyboard matrices?
01:18:07 <elliottasdf> Ilari. I distinctly remember Ilari talking about scancodes and keyboard layouts and shit.
01:18:54 <zzo38> People have told me some of these ideas resemble Haskell, Agda, Prolog, Lisp, Clean, and a few other things.
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01:19:33 <elliottasdf> My keyboard has now started producing input without me pressing any keys.
01:20:03 <zzo38> O no, now you have to buy another keyboard, or fix it with a screwdriver and that stuff
01:20:48 <lambdabot> olsner says: shapr: 2eyb6ard 0a5ntenance
01:20:54 <oerjan> demonic possession, obviously
01:21:16 <elliottasdf> OK, I tried to stop it and it just spewed a 1 out in the middle of the 3s.
01:21:21 <elliottasdf> Ctrl+C then stopped doing anything entirely.
01:22:06 <elliottasdf> oerjan: Frankly, that seems plausible at this point.
01:23:28 <fizzie> Zen and the Art of 2eyb6ard 0a5ntenance, a famous book.
01:24:02 <elliottasdf> Now it's started printing out "E"s at a much slower rate.
01:24:54 <fizzie> Not much. I'd suggest a vigorous shaking, but I suppose that's as likely (or maybe slightly more) to make whatever's wrong worse.
01:25:01 <nortti> elliottasdf: Get cross, hold it in front if you in front of your keyboard and say "By the power of christ I command you to leave"
01:25:23 <nortti> that might help with demonic possession
01:25:47 <fizzie> Yes, a soul-stealing machine like a camera can also help.
01:26:00 <oerjan> nortti: he doesn't have the faith
01:26:11 <olsner> is a possessed camera better than a possessed keyboard?
01:26:53 <elliottasdf> I swear to god, "s" now inputs asd[INSERT][INSERT][INSERT].
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01:28:01 <elliottasdf> fizzie: I tried shaking and it didn't do much.
01:28:06 <elliottasdf> Except it logged me out of that console somehow.
01:29:33 <nortti> elliottasdf: alvur is not in irc right now
01:30:00 <elliottasdf> nortti: It was a joke. I wouldn't talk to that guy if he was the only person on the planet who could fix my keyboard, anyway.
01:31:02 <nortti> well that's one reason
01:31:05 <olsner> but... do you really want to fix a keyboard that breaks? you should get a keyboard that doesn't break instead
01:31:10 <fizzie> Personally I'd just buy a new keyboard, but certainly it at least has been possible to open those things up and clean/unstick the actual contact points, if that's the problem. Just removing keycaps probably doesn't open things up enough, though, and it might be somehow otherwise broken.
01:31:18 <lambdabot> Local time for elliottasdf is 2012-04-22 01:31:18 +0000
01:31:23 <elliottasdf> Can't really buy a new keyboard in the timeframe I'd like.
01:31:40 <fizzie> Don't you have 24h computer shops in Hexham?
01:32:02 <lambdabot> Local time for nortti is Sun Apr 22 04:34:23 UTC+3.00 2012
01:32:23 <lambdabot> Local time for olsner is Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970
01:34:18 <fizzie> How'd that work, anyway? I think I saw a CTCP TIME from lambdabot the other day.
01:34:42 <lambdabot> Local time for fizzie is Sun Apr 22 04:34:38 2012
01:35:16 <lambdabot> Local time for elliottasdf is 2012-04-22 01:35:15 +0000
01:35:50 <lambdabot> Local time for olsner is Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970
01:36:01 <elliottasdf> Also, sitting here with this laptop is really uncomfortable. :(
01:36:11 <elliottasdf> Also where is monqy? Today is terrible. I hate today.
01:37:09 <fizzie> I have a spare PS/2 keyboard you can have if you pick it up. The 'u' doesn't work after an icecream incident, though.
01:37:49 <fizzie> They probably sell some kind of USB adapters.
01:38:18 <elliottasdf> They do. They don't work very well, esp. for things like the Model M which require rather more than a USB port is willing to offer.
01:38:54 <fizzie> It's a real Compaq-brand keyboard, from a... Compaq Presario CDS 633?
01:39:18 <fizzie> It was certified MPC level... 2?
01:39:46 <elliottasdf> fizzie: I'll forgive you if you watch me play Crawl.
01:40:20 <fizzie> http://www.recycledgoods.com/product_images/e/719/s_p_23909_1__90557_zoom.jpg yessss that looks familiar.
01:40:49 <fizzie> Sadly, imma sleep right about now. Early (noon) morning tomorrow.
01:41:41 <fizzie> That thing's got a Sound Blaster 16 card with an Adaptec SCSI chip integrated right on it.
01:41:53 <fizzie> The CD drive's hooked up with that.
01:42:59 <fizzie> Also something that looks just like a Tseng Labs ET4000 VLB video card, except it's not physically a card, it's on the motherboard.
01:43:51 <fizzie> The (three) expansion card slots are in a board that sticks up vertically from a custom slot in the mb.
01:46:34 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/caiY Y'mean, try to make this madness work? :P
01:47:27 <pikhq> elliottasdf: Yup, it's really insanely crappy.
01:48:08 <pikhq> Presumably cheap and hopefully quick and easy to get?
01:48:33 -!- NSQX has joined.
01:48:54 <pikhq> Yeah, either try cracking it open and seeing if there's any shorts, or buy a new one.
01:50:49 <pikhq> SIXTH is impossible to google.
01:51:03 -!- augur has joined.
01:51:38 <NSQX> http://esolangs.org/wiki/UniCode All of us would always have ''only a few thoughts'' for UniCode, but what I want is teamwork by the whole community to help finish the first UniCode specification, which would require 65536 different instructions thought of.
01:53:34 * oerjan predicts that NSQX is not going to get what he wants
01:53:52 <NSQX> No, first we will have teamwork on the UniCode 1.1 specification, which maps all the characters in Unicode 1.1 (65536 characters) to UniCode instructions. After we finish the UniCode 1.1 specification with our teamwork, then we will work on the UniCode 2.0 specification, which has more than 110,000 characters.
01:54:02 <elliottasdf> NSQX: Anyway, it would really be a good idea to omit the rows with no UniCode instruction description.
01:54:17 <elliottasdf> Otherwise the page will get way too big for the server and browsers very quickly, if a lot of people collaborate on creating the subpages.
01:54:36 <oerjan> NSQX: even besides the technical problems, there are not sufficiently many people sufficiently interested in this project.
01:54:49 <oerjan> (i, for one, don't care about it.)
01:56:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:56:10 <NSQX> Anyway, however, I am okay even if the ''UniCode 1.1 specification'' is completed in ''2020'' or earlier.
01:56:49 -!- augur has joined.
01:56:52 <nortti> elliott: you can get a free ps/2 keyboard from me if you come to finland and clean sodium hysrokside from it yourself
01:57:44 <nortti> Little incident on chemitry claas
01:58:00 <olsner> why did you bring your keyboard to chemistry class?
01:58:32 <oerjan> his whole life is a lye
01:58:33 <nortti> it got to my phome which i put on my old keyboard after I got home
01:58:51 <NSQX> Well, for just this moment, think of any characters which are not yet mapped to any UniCode instructions, then type the character and your proposed instruction on this IRC channel. Of course, unlike a wiki, anything you type here does not fill up any server.
01:59:07 <elliottasdf> It does, multiple bots log every line sent to the channel
02:00:03 <nortti> NSQX you can create you own channel just for that
02:00:47 <elliottasdf> Well, it's certainly fine to collaborate on esolangs here.
02:02:17 <nortti> U+0666 : start a satanic ritual
02:03:17 <NSQX> Okay, talk about thousands of UniCode characters and their instructions on the non-logged channel #uclang
02:04:52 <nortti> but how we maintain list of what does what
02:05:34 <elliottasdf> Right, logging is quite the benefit there :P
02:07:31 <elliottasdf> NSQX: You won't be able to fill up any disk by talking in here, anyway.
02:07:48 <elliottasdf> The freenode servers rate-limit every client, so there's no way for any one person to cause much data to be logged per day.
02:10:49 <nortti> RocketJSquirrel: ITYM? and U+0666 was in hexadecimal
02:12:09 <oerjan> there are no yaks in peru
02:12:17 <RocketJSquirrel> nortti: "ITYM" = "I think you mean", and I'm making fun of our silly, would-be-prime-if-not-for-symmetry number of fingers.
02:12:30 <oerjan> and tibet has only lamas, not llamas
02:13:44 <RocketJSquirrel> elliottasdf: Our number of fingers is 2*5. If it wasn't for the free multiple of two thanks to symmetry, it would be prime.
02:14:41 <elliottasdf> Well, my keyboard appears to have become completely useless.
02:16:54 <olsner> then why is it still your keyboard?
02:17:07 <nortti> elliottasdf: what are you using to write then?
02:18:48 <nortti> What kind of specs does your other laptop have?
02:19:10 <elliottasdf> The other one is, like, 1.33 GHz Core 2 Duo ULV with 4 gigs of RAM.
02:21:10 <elliottasdf> This one is 2.13 GHz Core 2 Duo with the same RAM, but the RAM is DDR3, the HD is SSD and the resolution is higher.
02:30:19 <elliottasdf> You can't just shimmy down from the ceiling like that.
02:30:47 <oerjan> it's an ooooooooooooooooooooomen
02:32:20 <zzo38> Then leave it alone, unless it touched you
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02:38:28 <HackEgo> 710) <fizzie> Do you want me to live dangerously and just stick it in the bot without testing it? <elliott> fizzie: Yes. <elliott> There is pretty much no way it won't be amazing.
02:39:16 <NSQX> Well, to find Unicode escape identifiers to put in the table of UniCode characters, go to http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/(hexcode)/index.htm
02:39:53 * elliottasdf isn't sure what an "escape identifier" is meant to be.
02:40:36 <NSQX> For example, http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/00AB/index.htm for the Unicode escape identifier for UniCode's right shift instruction, which is LEFT-POINTING DOUBLE ANGLE QUOTATION MARK
02:40:51 <elliottasdf> I don't see anything marked as an escape identifier on that page.
02:41:41 <NSQX> Then look for "LEFT-POINTING DOUBLE ANGLE QUOTATION MARK" on that page, it is the Unicode escape identifier apart from the code.
02:42:28 <NSQX> No, 0x00AB (171) is the code.
02:42:50 <elliottasdf> That's just the number of the codepoint (in hex and decimal).
02:43:19 <elliottasdf> So I'm not sure what you want that column to contain, other than the hex version of the column next to it.
02:43:59 -!- NSQX has quit (Quit: leaving).
02:44:14 -!- elliottasdf has changed nick to elliott.
02:44:19 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
02:44:19 -!- elliott has joined.
02:44:33 <elliott> @tell monqy sorry, it was necessary
02:46:13 <elliott> Oh, *now* you start talking again.
02:46:33 <elliott> It would take a Unicode Big Endian codepoint to express my distaste.
02:46:40 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Quit: hagb4rd).
02:48:13 <elliott> Hey oerjan, fix my keyboard or I'll cry.
02:49:14 <elliott> Actually, I might just cry anyway. But you should still fix my keyboard.
02:49:16 <elliott> I'm getting rather keybored.
02:49:59 <elliott> oerjan: Come on, swat me for that.
02:50:06 <elliott> It would beat eternal nothingness.
02:51:05 <oerjan> I'm sorry, elliott. I'm afraid I can't do that. Except for the swatting part. -----###
02:51:23 <elliott> Two spaces after full stops? You must really hate me.
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02:52:51 <oerjan> i have used that for years, i think.
02:54:03 <elliott> Well, my other computer doesn't use a monospaced font.
02:54:06 <oerjan> i'm just not talkative enough for it to show up often.
02:54:19 <elliott> So I don't see the awfulness as much.
02:54:22 <elliott> But I can't use that because
02:54:59 <elliott> I bet soon you'll get really keybored of hearing about my broken keyboard.
02:55:53 <oerjan> i'm not betting against that.
02:56:02 <oerjan> seems it's that earth day thing
02:56:18 <elliott> Is the earth rebelling against my artificial technology?
02:56:27 <elliott> Is the EARTH to blame for my BROKEN KEYBOARD???
02:56:42 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
02:57:27 <elliott> ALSO I DON'T HAVE ADBLOCK HERE
03:14:41 -!- nortti has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
03:27:22 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/suggested-edits/245370
03:41:16 <qfr> I presume that was you, elliottq
03:41:18 <qfr> elliott * even
03:41:33 <elliott> Totally. I logged out and suggested an edit just so I could reject it.
03:42:13 <elliott> idcbhygytfrdsr, and all that.
03:42:19 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep.
03:42:54 <elliott> (I Don't Care 'Bout How You Guys Yank Televisions From Radical Democrats (So Radical))
03:45:30 <elliott> "Ibex 'Dangerously Crass' Begats Hella Yak Geishas, You Tossers", Fucking Ridiculous Diocese Sluttily Rants
03:46:59 <elliott> Incantations Don't Castrate Banned Hamburgers; However, Yammering Ghouls' Ytterbium Tools Froze Recently, Damning Saintly Raccoons.
03:49:34 <elliott> Isengard Disease Causes Buggery, Hugs; Y'all Gimli-Yacht Travellers, For Real; Don't Sex Rabbis.
03:49:47 <elliott> qfr: Come on, I can't do all these by myself.
03:51:37 <qfr> elliott of course you can, you know Haskell
03:58:20 -!- monqy has joined.
03:58:39 <elliott> monqy a lot happened monqy monqy
03:58:50 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
03:59:02 <monqy> a lot really did happen, if i have a message,
03:59:34 <monqy> oh no now i have to logread
04:01:39 <monqy> 01:51:38: <NSQX> http://esolangs.org/wiki/UniCode All of us would always have ''only a few thoughts'' for UniCode, but what I want is teamwork by the whole community to help finish the first UniCode specification, which would require 65536 different instructions thought of.
04:02:04 <elliott> You skipped the part where my keyboard broke.
04:02:14 <monqy> :( where should i start
04:02:29 <monqy> also oh no UniCode pages on the wiki
04:07:39 <monqy> i'll just start where i last quit and skim until i find something interesting
04:08:58 <elliott> also monqy i played crawl some more
04:09:33 <monqy> im going to tv your deaths
04:10:07 <elliott> how do you watch the tv again
04:10:36 <monqy> telnet termcast.develz.org
04:10:43 <monqy> i'll find all your games i havent seen and queue them up
04:11:57 <elliott> rest in piece lichemaster the firebug, deep elf
04:12:18 <elliott> really bad about black on black text
04:12:45 <monqy> probably someone in ##crawl will ask me why i queued all of these deaths
04:12:48 <monqy> i shoiuld prepare an excuse
04:13:22 <elliott> how could anyone question the beauty of me dying
04:13:38 <monqy> i like it, but i might like it because it's bad
04:13:56 <elliott> should i join, is it a scary kind of place
04:14:04 <monqy> i don't think it's scary
04:14:22 <monqy> it's friendly depending on stuff i guess
04:14:28 <monqy> 21:14:21 < mikee_> monqy, what are you doing
04:14:36 <elliott> i kept pressing ctrl+p to try and view previous messages
04:14:43 <elliott> i ended up praying a lot instead
04:14:51 <elliott> but xom didn't seem to mind
04:14:56 <elliott> monqy: also are you doing them in reverse order
04:15:02 <elliott> because that was my most recent one i think
04:15:03 <monqy> it's easier that way
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04:15:48 <elliott> is ##crawl laughing at how bad i play
04:16:13 <monqy> so far only mikee has said anything and it was just asking me why all these d:1 mucks are important
04:17:08 <elliott> oh boy i remember this one
04:17:19 <elliott> xom was all inner flame and i was all oops
04:17:44 <elliott> i forget how i actually died though
04:17:47 <monqy> for future reference (assuming any future at all) that brown ^ was a shaft and you could have stepped on it and hit > for a free escape
04:18:02 <elliott> thanks, i'll let past me know
04:19:39 <elliott> monqy—elliott !tv monopoly
04:20:14 <elliott> normalises the speed doesn't it
04:20:35 <elliott> also i meant to say monqy instead of squarelos so that it was more symmetrical sigh
04:20:53 <monqy> well making big delays shorter is fine by me but i wish it kept small delays small
04:21:21 <elliott> wait ##crawl know my nickname now OOPSE
04:21:41 <monqy> they probably won't bother you
04:21:52 <monqy> unless you join and say bad things
04:22:09 <monqy> one way to find out
04:22:17 <elliott> don't do it and think about it instead???
04:23:29 <elliott> why is the background all wrong
04:23:54 <monqy> ^Q to quit, S or ^S to save and quit
04:24:01 <monqy> what terminal are you usicng
04:24:21 <monqy> termian dltot app is kown to have crawl problems
04:24:29 <elliott> i have a brighter background
04:24:42 <elliott> how do i make it forget me
04:24:46 <monqy> i forget what ##crawl says about terminal.app
04:24:56 <elliott> i dont want to know (it would hurt my (feeligns))
04:25:57 <elliott> monqy: is there a way to disable how crawl sets its own background
04:26:03 -!- asiekierka has joined.
04:32:48 <elliott> monqy: i cant figure it out :'(
04:34:38 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Sat Apr 21 21:34:37 2012
04:35:44 <monqy> 21:35:38 <Henzell> macos[1/1]: Install iTerm, do not use Terminal.app. If you like X, any sane X terminal emulator will work (xterm, urxvt).
04:38:23 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
04:40:07 <elliott> monqy: i used xterm but now every text am really small :(
04:40:58 <monqy> can you make every text bigger
04:42:05 <elliott> monqy: how do you paste into xterm without mouse
04:42:28 <monqy> try pressing three fingers on your touchpad?
04:42:39 <elliott> monqy: doesnt work in os x
04:43:38 <elliott> i think because its even more boring when im not acutally making the game do anything
04:44:13 <elliott> i may grow to quickly regret this decision
04:45:11 <monqy> if you want to get far enough to see different parts of crawl which is probably the best thing to do to get into it
04:45:15 <monqy> muck probably isn't the best choice
04:45:22 <monqy> but i dunno what a good choice would be
04:45:29 <monqy> the 'best' choices are boring
04:45:39 <monqy> trolls and berserkers and such
04:45:43 <elliott> i just picked muck because
04:45:50 <elliott> (a) you were playing muck and
04:45:58 <elliott> (b) they don't have to eat which is nice
04:45:59 <monqy> muck is one of those
04:46:02 <monqy> infamously bad combos
04:46:11 <elliott> i'm kind of infamously bad too
04:46:15 <elliott> but uh yeah trolls sound boring
04:46:21 <elliott> berserker i GUESS i could do???
04:46:32 <elliott> i just don't want to worry about eating all the time
04:46:36 <monqy> mube is also on the infamously bad side
04:46:40 <elliott> so things that can eat corpses, or don't need to eat, appeal to me
04:46:51 <monqy> kobe is good though
04:47:12 <monqy> oh no am i accidentally using the shortenings do you know what they mean i forgot to explain them
04:47:25 <elliott> kobold berserker sounds good
04:47:44 <elliott> kobolds don't have to eat right
04:48:05 <elliott> what definition of "good" are you using
04:48:12 <elliott> and is that water meant to be an a with a hat
04:48:23 <monqy> it's meant to be a ≈
04:48:46 -!- augur has joined.
04:48:57 <monqy> as a berserker you can pray over corpses you don't want to eat to sacrifice them to trog, press a to use god abilities (you start with berk)
04:49:05 <elliott> ok i guess ill stick with this
04:49:07 <monqy> you could play a kobe and maybe dive a bit and use berk to kill hard stuff
04:49:32 -!- MSleep has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
04:50:06 <elliott> i have to type my 20-character password each time
04:50:18 <monqy> it gets trunkated to the first 8
04:50:27 <elliott> but the sign up thing said 20 char
04:51:06 <elliott> _You hit the plant but do no damage.
04:51:18 <elliott> also are things that are bold blue good
04:51:28 <monqy> the _s separate messages on different turns
04:51:40 <monqy> blue means it has some enchantments or something
04:51:46 <monqy> this could mean it's negatively enchanted and cursed
04:51:49 <elliott> level up once or twice on the first floor thing
04:52:06 <elliott> also diving sounds like a pain when
04:52:11 <elliott> the non-boring way to find >s is autoexplore
04:52:15 <elliott> but that searches lots of other things too
04:52:51 <elliott> when trog accepts my kill is that
04:52:53 <monqy> cannibalism isn't a problem in crawl unless you worship good gods or the corpse of your race is indedible to you
04:52:56 <elliott> do i have to do anything about it
04:53:00 <monqy> it means you might have gained some piety
04:53:02 <elliott> also then why didnt it prompt me about eating the kobold bitses
04:53:45 <elliott> that's an instadeath thing right
04:53:49 <elliott> or was that nethack im thinking of
04:54:02 <monqy> crawl just won't let eat poisonous chunks
04:54:10 <monqy> unless you have rpois, in which case they're just like clean chunks
04:54:19 <monqy> unless they're pois+contam, in which case they're just like contam chunks
04:54:25 <monqy> but kobolds treat clean and contam the same so
04:55:53 <elliott> so does trog like me killing uhhh
04:56:16 <monqy> i think trog doesn't care about plants or "nonliving" things?
04:56:20 <monqy> maybe just not care about plants
04:56:22 <elliott> ok so basically everything
04:56:32 <monqy> nonliving is things like golems
04:56:50 <elliott> jesus fuck how bad are me and the giant newt at aiming
04:57:09 <elliott> i swear roguelikes take place in a world where everybody's swords are made of jelly
04:57:56 <elliott> im level up once more and then go dive
04:57:57 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
04:58:05 <monqy> if you level up once more
04:58:09 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
04:58:22 <monqy> really you could have dove right at the beginning but maybe you feel more comfortable this way
04:58:27 <monqy> berk is really strong
04:58:35 <elliott> what was the "if" i dont quite
04:58:44 <elliott> doing it to get items and uhhh
04:58:54 <monqy> maybe theres not enough xp on this level
04:59:00 <elliott> it feels less foolhardy if i level up a bit first because then i have a Serious Commitment to the game
04:59:19 <elliott> but you're right, i'll go down a level
04:59:31 <elliott> then level up once, then dive time
04:59:46 <monqy> my strat on berkers is dive until i find hard things then berk them for all the levels i could have gotten by doing things slowly
04:59:59 <elliott> ok this is the part where we find out i've forgotten how to do that
04:59:59 <Sgeo> elliott, berserker?
05:01:16 <monqy> until you start having trouble?
05:01:24 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
05:02:03 <monqy> oh i wasn't watching
05:02:09 <Sgeo> WHat's in inventory?
05:02:36 <elliott> i think ill try monqys strategy this time
05:02:58 <monqy> also when berking try to handle just one thing at a time
05:03:06 <elliott> the orcs came before the berk thing
05:03:07 <monqy> i don't know how you got into that situation
05:03:09 <elliott> that was sort of a last minute thing
05:03:16 <elliott> there were orcs and i was almost dead so
05:03:31 <zzo38> The next session of Dungeons&Dragons game not played yet so I selected a flaw and a feat (it is allowed to select a trait no more often than once every five levels, although less often if you wish; but only upon advancing a level)
05:03:35 <monqy> also if you're in especially trrouble you can use one of trogs other abilities before the berk too, like trogs hand for extra hp regen and magic resistance, or brothers in arms from berking friends
05:03:38 <Patashu> you should play a spriggan wizard
05:03:44 <Patashu> 2. if you run out of magic darts run
05:03:45 <monqy> uuugh kiting is boring
05:03:47 <elliott> monqy: man trog is like 10x nicer than xom
05:03:53 <monqy> I explicitly avoided suggesting kitey things
05:04:30 <monqy> kiting is when you used ranged stuff then step away until you're out of range and repeat
05:04:32 <Patashu> faster than like everything
05:04:48 <monqy> you're in no danger at all and you can kill anything that's slower than you and melee only
05:04:50 <Patashu> it's kind of silly, spriggans and centaurs are way too powerful as a result
05:04:52 <monqy> i.e. most of early game
05:05:14 <monqy> it's a Big Crawl Problem
05:05:30 <monqy> either search or go back up and try another downstairs
05:06:22 -!- quintopia has joined.
05:07:41 <elliott> uhh is there a decent wiki
05:07:43 <elliott> i found a wiki once googling
05:07:44 <monqy> i've never used them!!
05:07:47 <elliott> i don't know if it's any good like
05:07:52 <monqy> the wiki is infamously bad
05:07:59 <Patashu> what I do when I want to know A Thing in crawl is
05:08:06 <Patashu> or if it's not a monster ??name_of_thing
05:08:25 <monqy> ##crawl is generally better than wiki but sometimes bad people give bad advice
05:08:27 <monqy> or are generally bad
05:08:28 <Patashu> you can pm the bots directly if you don't want to reveal your shameful secrets
05:08:33 <Sgeo> elliott, the Crawl wiki is considered obsolete by everyone
05:08:47 <monqy> Sgeo: obsolete and full of bad advice and misinformation
05:08:53 <monqy> Sgeo: it is doublebad
05:09:24 <monqy> you can berk again
05:09:44 <Patashu> btw, the most important thing to know in crawl as a combat wombat is the concept of weapon delay
05:10:01 <monqy> is that really the most important thing
05:10:04 <Patashu> every 2 points in $weapon_skill your weapon's weapon delay is reduced by 10%
05:10:11 <monqy> i thought the most important thing was like
05:10:12 <Patashu> to a minimum of 70% or half of its original whichever is lower
05:10:19 <Patashu> for strategy purposes it is
05:10:19 <monqy> when to run and how to position yourself
05:10:26 <monqy> oh i was thinking tactics
05:10:33 <Patashu> basically you want to pump your weapon skill until you have the min delay for your weapon
05:10:38 <Patashu> then you can do other things as well
05:10:38 <elliott> i keep getting sidetracked
05:10:52 <monqy> you don't have to dive
05:10:58 <monqy> diving is less boring than clearing everything
05:11:08 <zzo38> ADOM has something like weapon delay too; the more skills you have reduce the energy costs. This is described fully in the instructions (push ? during the game).
05:11:16 <Patashu> alternate o and tab until D:1 is cleared
05:11:17 <monqy> Patashu: for some reason elliott is exploring manually
05:11:26 <Patashu> I have a friend who explores manually
05:11:28 <elliott> was trying to find stairs quicker
05:11:28 <monqy> also don't alternate o and tab, put them both on the same key
05:11:31 <elliott> because autoexplore is all
05:11:35 <monqy> and make sure that key is spacebar
05:11:46 <monqy> also put other things on spacebar
05:11:52 <elliott> monqy "speaking from personal experience"
05:12:00 <elliott> is "other things" a euphemism for "a giant lua macro"
05:12:07 <monqy> if you want it to be!
05:12:29 <monqy> if i was serious about winning my macro would be smaller or better
05:12:54 <monqy> but I prefer crazy
05:13:28 <elliott> i was expecting that kobold to be angrier
05:13:35 <monqy> kobolds aren't very angry
05:13:48 <Patashu> goliath beetles are sloooow
05:13:50 <Patashu> but they hit for like all your hp
05:13:54 <monqy> they're slow but hit kind of hard?? just don;'t keymash into them
05:14:07 <elliott> ill just wait to not be exh
05:14:14 <elliott> this is my strategy for everything btw
05:14:22 <monqy> you can hit 5 to be less exh
05:14:24 <Patashu> you can kill it and take 0 damage with hack and back
05:14:47 <Patashu> dying to goliath bettles is boring-er
05:14:54 <elliott> suddenly i agree with patashu
05:14:58 <zzo38> Is it possible to win at Crawl without ever advancing an experience level?
05:15:04 <monqy> one solution to goliath beatles: dont fight them
05:15:27 <monqy> that's "keymashing into them"
05:15:39 <monqy> zzo38: well, maybe with absolutely insane luck manipulation, but then I don't know
05:15:40 <zzo38> monqy: In ADOM it is possible; someone won an ultra ending with only one experience point in total (which is not enough to advance a level).
05:15:48 <Patashu> zzo38: you would need insane luck manipulation
05:17:22 <elliott> monqy: how come kobolds can like
05:17:26 <elliott> throw across insane curves
05:17:28 <Patashu> there's technically nothing stopping you
05:17:33 <Patashu> since the runes and orb are on the ground
05:17:38 <Patashu> except there'll be thousands of enemies in your way
05:17:38 <monqy> elliott: insane curves?
05:17:47 <elliott> im around the corner from them completely
05:17:47 <Patashu> and you don't start with enough escape resources nor will you find enough
05:17:49 <elliott> and they just hit me anyway
05:17:56 <Patashu> also, if you can see a monster it can hit you
05:18:03 <Patashu> (well, ignoring things like glass)
05:18:03 <monqy> elliott: they're approximations of plain ol euclidean lines
05:18:17 <elliott> you cant throw curves like that irl
05:18:25 <monqy> they're bad approximations
05:18:25 <elliott> and then randomly decides to bend
05:18:41 <Patashu> in crawl, the field of vision model is that you can project a line from anywhere within your tile to anywhere in the other tile
05:18:43 <elliott> do i need to care about whether i increase str int or dex
05:18:43 <Patashu> and that counts as being in LOS
05:18:50 <zzo38> Can you, scare someone away, teleport in different places, get a lot of defense, etc
05:18:52 <monqy> ther'es a certain tension between realism and crawl isn't real life, and in crawl it ends with everyone being upset
05:18:53 <Patashu> also, int if you plan on casting spells (you don't)
05:19:01 <Patashu> zzo38: you can do all of those things
05:19:05 <monqy> elliott: go dex on kobe probably?
05:19:07 <Patashu> but you can't do them enough without levels or a shitload of comestibles
05:19:15 <elliott> ive never increeased dex before
05:19:41 <monqy> str would be for armours and you're probably as kobe doing more a dodgey route. you already have enough str for any armour you'd want to use
05:20:10 <monqy> oh no what did you do
05:20:23 <zzo38> elliott: Then you must learn......
05:20:27 <Patashu> zzo38: the thing about crawl that's different from most roguelikes is that 'teleportation' takes a few turns to activate
05:20:34 <Patashu> and during those few turns you're pretty vulnerable to whatever's in your line of sight
05:20:53 <monqy> "pretty vulnerable" just as vulnerable as usual
05:21:01 <monqy> you can do stuff while waiting to teleport
05:21:05 <monqy> like heal, run away, etc
05:21:12 <Patashu> there's a teleport control status, but certain levels (like zot:5) prevent it from working, too
05:21:15 <elliott> monqy: didnt you say trog had magic abilities
05:21:26 <monqy> elliott: you only have enougjh piety for berk
05:21:27 <Patashu> while theoretically you could teleport-dance to get three runes the orb and leave you can't really do it enough and reliably enough
05:21:32 <Patashu> oh, and when you have the orb that disables ctele too
05:21:38 <zzo38> Is it possible to win at Crawl with a small inventory weight limit
05:21:45 <elliott> monqy: is this the part where i die
05:21:53 <monqy> elliott: do you have potieon
05:22:02 <monqy> you could randomly try one of those
05:22:18 <zzo38> (In ADOM, someone has once won with the weight limit being no more than one chaos orb, meaning you have to place each orb individually)
05:22:27 <elliott> this is a new level design
05:22:28 <Patashu> yeah, ADOM has crazy amounts of exploits, I've read
05:22:36 <Patashu> like where you teleport to the rooms in darkforge full of pools weapons and armour
05:22:43 <Patashu> and get everything you need to be unnecessarily powerful
05:22:54 <monqy> elliott: crawl has "vaults" which are chunks of predesigned dungeon structure, and "entry vaults" which happen on game start
05:22:54 <elliott> whats that weird circle level thing
05:22:58 <monqy> elliott: that's that
05:23:08 <elliott> oh how do you offer a corpse thing btw
05:23:43 <elliott> is it bad to do it too much
05:23:53 <Patashu> pray does nothing if there's no corpse under you
05:24:04 <monqy> worst that can happen is you pray away the corpses you want to eat and run out of food "rip"
05:24:21 <monqy> i forget if praying with a corpse under you costs a turn
05:24:26 <monqy> if it does i guess that could be bad in combat
05:24:35 <monqy> but otherwise it's strictly beneficial
05:24:45 <zzo38> Patashu: I know, ADOM has a lot of these things; it has the "uberjackal" effect which many people hate but I think it is not strong enough
05:25:00 <monqy> if you don't need the corpse or turn for something else: pray is stricktly good
05:25:40 <zzo38> And you can win without ever entering Darkforge, even. You could also win by entering only the tower of flames and the main dungeon
05:26:04 <zzo38> (I have found where the world map is stored in the executable, and edit it; it is not difficult to do)
05:26:27 <zzo38> (For example, to restrict certain areas of the game)
05:26:50 <Patashu> You should try crawl, zzo38
05:27:08 <zzo38> Patashu: I have played Crawl too
05:27:16 <zzo38> And I do have it on my computer
05:27:26 <monqy> what crawl is this
05:27:35 <monqy> you seem like the sort of person who would play ancient crawl
05:28:03 <monqy> you're probably a bit too early for an orc warrior
05:28:10 <monqy> if you don't get away it will kill you
05:28:16 <monqy> and if it has a polearm it will kill you from afar
05:28:23 <elliott> it used an orcish halberd :(
05:29:11 <elliott> playing more properly now though
05:29:20 <elliott> They say that the Orb of Zot exists deep, deep down but nobody ever got it.
05:29:23 <elliott> this is the worst opening sentence ever
05:29:30 <Patashu> like you read opening sentences
05:29:31 <elliott> but nobody ever got it??? are you fucking kidding me
05:29:37 <monqy> elliott: it's not the worst
05:29:45 <monqy> elliott: amazingly there's one that's even better
05:30:20 <monqy> The bosom of this dungeon contains the most powerful artefact, the Orb of Zot.
05:30:32 <monqy> oh it's not as great as i remember it:(
05:31:44 <monqy> also maybe you are diving a bit too quickly?? maybe dive to d:3 then find something difficult to get a level or two off of before going further??
05:31:54 <monqy> or go further and if you see anything too difficult run away
05:32:01 <monqy> and go back up and level up
05:32:30 <elliott> i think my main problem though is that
05:33:13 <Patashu> possibly you're bad at them because you don't play them enough
05:33:18 <elliott> i feel like monqy was just treating my badness as a crawl-specific thing and is now giving up on me
05:33:44 <monqy> what happened there
05:34:02 <zzo38> Which roguelike games are designed to be impossible to win at?
05:34:07 <elliott> i think it mostly is impatience though because uh
05:34:11 <elliott> monqy: btw i found vagrant
05:34:22 <monqy> is smart kobold winnable? I've never tried
05:34:30 <elliott> but uh my problem is basically
05:34:36 <elliott> when nothing much ish appening i go too fast because
05:34:42 <elliott> its really boring to consider every little thing that i know will be fine
05:34:46 <elliott> but then i get into trouble and dont realise it
05:35:00 <monqy> it's a crawl problem
05:35:00 <Patashu> that's why crawl has tedium-reducing buttons
05:35:05 <Patashu> like o, tab, G, x X and so on
05:35:14 <elliott> monqy: its kind of nethack problem too for me
05:35:20 <monqy> i dont play nethack so
05:35:26 <Patashu> 2. is the thing that has appeared difficult?
05:35:27 <monqy> i wouldnt know if its a nethack problem
05:35:30 <Patashu> 3. no? tab tab tab or cast cast cast
05:35:31 <elliott> well nethack is a lot less boring because the maps are a lot smaller and stuff but
05:35:39 <elliott> there's a lot of monsters that are really easy to dispose of
05:35:45 <monqy> i used to play nethack a little bit but i stopped
05:36:05 <monqy> and i didn';t want to bother with spoilers because yawn
05:36:11 <monqy> i knew about elbereth but never used it
05:36:19 <Patashu> the other thing you need is a strong early game so you figure out what your resources are and get a strong attack quickly
05:36:27 <elliott> a lot of the variants nerf elbereth because
05:36:28 <Patashu> if you're a melee character, pump the type of weapon you're using, and look for strong weapons of that kind
05:36:33 <elliott> you can just spam it forever
05:36:36 <monqy> i think the furthest i got is it was time to do the quest or something and i couldn't figure out how
05:36:41 <Patashu> if you're a spellcaster, pump the kind of spell you're using (+ spellcasting if you need to reduce your hunger, e.g. spriggan)
05:36:52 <Patashu> the other thing to do is play the id game properly
05:37:03 <Patashu> how I do it is wait until I have a bunch of scrolls, then start reading them
05:37:11 <Patashu> if I'm prompted to select an item, it's either identify, enchant armour or recharging
05:37:14 <elliott> is there for no reason whatsoever
05:37:19 <Patashu> once I have id, I use it on all my potions
05:37:27 <Patashu> (you do it that way because there are more dangerous potions than dangerous scrolls)
05:37:28 <monqy> you can use e or y to confirm eating
05:37:33 <elliott> Patashu: this sounds REALLY BORING
05:37:47 <elliott> youve ruined it for me now but ON THE OTHER HAND thats convenient
05:37:51 <monqy> elliott: identification in crawl is boring
05:38:06 <monqy> i dont know what Patashu said but
05:38:07 <elliott> how many times have you won crawl btw im just curious
05:38:17 <Patashu> elliott: the early game only lasts until about D:5 thankfully
05:38:21 <monqy> i someohw won it 17 times before getting sick of it
05:38:45 <elliott> i guess its easier to win than nethack
05:38:54 <Patashu> nethack is easier if you're really, really spoiled though
05:39:01 <elliott> winning nethack 17 times would be pr ETTY imrpresive
05:39:03 <monqy> some people think it iss, some people think it isntt
05:39:14 <elliott> but then monqy could be relaly good i wouldnnt know ive never seen monqy play
05:39:19 <monqy> people have won crawl hunderetds of times
05:39:31 <monqy> i used to be pretty good but then i got sick of it
05:39:54 <Patashu> btw, monqy, have you played brogue yet
05:40:03 <monqy> i liked it until i got sick of it too
05:40:03 <elliott> i was asking ais whether brougre is good
05:40:18 <monqy> no :( i got to like the level before the last as my best
05:40:32 <monqy> i won doomrl a good few times before getting sick of it too
05:40:36 <monqy> brogue is another roguelike
05:40:43 <monqy> it's like rogue but it has a b in front
05:40:58 <Patashu> but it's full of gas you can set on fire
05:41:00 <Patashu> bridges you can set on fire
05:41:05 <Patashu> and in general you should set fire to things whenever possible
05:41:07 <zzo38> I have many ideas to make up a roguelike game. One is that each kind of creature and each class has two numeric values associated with it called "experience factor" and "score factor", neither of which affect NPCs. Also that inactive areas are stored to disk instead of memory, that experience points are mostly earned from quests and other unique things, that tactics to save time are important, many kinds of spells/items, etc
05:41:11 <Patashu> (preferably while not in it)
05:41:28 <elliott> monqy: im doing what you said
05:41:47 <zzo38> I don't know what is your opinion of some of my ideas for roguelike games
05:41:50 <monqy> just rest it off maybe?
05:41:55 <Patashu> quaff whatever kind of potion you have the most of
05:41:56 <monqy> if you get too low on hp you can try your potions
05:41:59 <Patashu> (it'll probably be curing or heal wounds)
05:42:09 <monqy> alternatively start reading scrolls for identify and start the identification game right now
05:42:27 <monqy> 5 just pauses when you lose hp from pois
05:42:38 <monqy> where by dumb i mean
05:43:06 <monqy> annoying but sometimes lifesaving? like it's just annoying if you're high hp and if you're low hp it should be pausing on hp loss anyway so yeah it's just dumb
05:43:13 <monqy> 5 is better than .
05:43:18 <monqy> just hit 5 multiple times
05:43:31 <monqy> also now you got trog's hand!! congratulatiosn1!!
05:43:33 <zzo38> Patashu: When I am playing KING game I usually only quaff a potion I have more than one of if it is unidentified, however, in KING, all potions are equally likely to appear
05:43:43 <elliott> i dont WANT trogs hand that s DISTUGISTNG its all BLOODIED STUMpe
05:43:54 <monqy> you lost trogs hand
05:44:02 <monqy> you lose piety over time and you went below the trogs hand threshhold
05:44:06 <Patashu> trog's hand is incredibly good
05:44:42 <monqy> shafts can take you down up to 3 levels i think? and you cant go back up them so
05:44:47 <monqy> only use for escape or SERIOUS DIVING
05:44:53 <monqy> are you serious about your diving
05:45:03 <elliott> i guess my joking diving...
05:45:24 <monqy> also it might be good to
05:45:27 <zzo38> There is a review of my KING game which says that the game is good in general but things such as, even after you identify a potion it still might be difficult to understand, for example a potion of Regenerate will regenerate the level, not your health.
05:45:30 <monqy> rest off exh before exploring
05:45:30 <monqy> in case you need to berk
05:45:41 <monqy> or you could backpedal until exh goes away if you ned to berk
05:45:45 <monqy> also you don't need to berk everything
05:45:51 <elliott> i thought i died to one of those before
05:46:01 <monqy> also also also oh i forgot what i was going to say drat
05:46:10 <elliott> this game is not that bad really
05:46:13 <monqy> rest off slow definitely
05:47:17 <elliott> does being very full or jjjorijtiorjtojrtijrotjritjroijtoirjtoirjtoirjtoirjtiorjtirojt thingy
05:47:31 <monqy> only really weird things like
05:47:40 <monqy> not being able to eat a royal jelly to restore your stats
05:47:51 <elliott> really careful about keeping at right level of hunger
05:48:12 <monqy> if you eat too much permanent food you won't have any for later
05:48:17 <monqy> assuming you get later
05:48:24 <Patashu> unless you're about to starve
05:48:33 <monqy> should proably trogshand&berk yuor ghost
05:48:49 <monqy> dont berk from far away
05:48:57 <monqy> you lose berk duration quickly when walking
05:48:59 <elliott> yeah that was a last minute oopse
05:49:01 <Patashu> why is it that in roguelike
05:49:05 <Patashu> people use circles expecting them to be circles
05:49:11 <Patashu> but they should use squares instead
05:49:20 <monqy> Patashu: nobody knows
05:49:23 <Sgeo> Wait, how id elliott manage to find elliott's ghost?
05:49:33 <Patashu> I think it's more likely to pick ghosts of people who have died lately
05:49:35 <monqy> Patashu: were you around for the squarelos branch? in which square los was implemented
05:49:37 <Patashu> and elliott has died a lot lately
05:49:42 <monqy> Patashu: and erocrawl, in which square los was implemented
05:49:48 <monqy> Patashu: some of the devs (kilobyte) don't like it
05:50:21 <Patashu> maybe cdo has its own ghosts
05:50:31 <monqy> cao has cao ghosts and cdo has cdo ghosts
05:50:32 <Patashu> stop running around slowed
05:50:35 <elliott> i like the part where slow + exh + worm
05:50:37 <Patashu> now you can't hack and back that worm
05:50:38 <monqy> yeah i said to rest off slow!!
05:50:47 <Patashu> now you can hack and back it
05:50:48 <monqy> hack and back is the dumbest
05:50:58 <monqy> you have enoiough hp to just hit it, don't even need berk
05:51:02 <monqy> if it gets you low, run away
05:51:03 <Sgeo> hack and back?
05:51:08 <elliott> quite a few species by now
05:51:10 <Patashu> 1) wait for it to step next to you
05:51:19 <Patashu> works on anything much slower than you
05:51:40 <monqy> at the cost of: guilt, hating yourself, me sending you the message "hi"
05:52:03 <Patashu> am I also forbidden to cast mephitic cloud and cblink
05:52:08 <monqy> i will also send you "hi" if you: kite excessively, use mephitic cloud, -yes
05:52:16 <Sgeo> And mephitic cloud?
05:52:23 <monqy> don't you play crawl sgeo
05:52:44 <zzo38> Can I use an Either monad transformer on a list monad?
05:52:46 <elliott> `addquote <Sgeo> hack and back? <Patashu> works on anything much slower than you <monqy> at the cost of: guilt, hating yourself, me sending you the message "hi" <Patashu> am I also forbidden to cast mephitic cloud and cblink <monqy> i will also send you "hi" if you: kite excessively, use mephitic cloud, -yes
05:52:49 <HackEgo> 844) <Sgeo> hack and back? <Patashu> works on anything much slower than you <monqy> at the cost of: guilt, hating yourself, me sending you the message "hi" <Patashu> am I also forbidden to cast mephitic cloud and cblink <monqy> i will also send you "hi" if you: kite excessively, use mephitic cloud, -yes
05:53:14 <zzo38> And if so, will it do what I am trying?
05:53:29 <zzo38> elliott: Oops you typed it backwards!!!!!!
05:53:30 <monqy> elliott: perhaps a few too many things to be berking
05:53:38 <monqy> elliott: you might run out of berk and be slowed in fron of them all
05:53:41 <monqy> Patashu: sword in stone
05:53:42 <Patashu> you can't run from things while slowed
05:53:49 <Patashu> faster than you are right now
05:53:59 <Patashu> do you have any id'd potions/scrolls
05:54:11 <elliott> is there any level of good that can help me now
05:54:13 <Patashu> the regen is like 1 hp/turn or so
05:54:18 <Patashu> do you have any id'd scrolls/potions
05:54:18 <elliott> i berked when there was only one human
05:54:21 <monqy> it's more than 1hp per tern isnt it
05:54:27 <elliott> i have a potion of heal me up
05:54:34 <zzo38> If your character is human then they may be as fast as you I suppose, so you can run away at the same speed they are running, I suppose, I would think. But if your character not human then consider something else
05:54:43 <elliott> zzo38: im david slowed though
05:54:44 <monqy> elliott: generally if you'r ein unexplored territory you should see if there's something you can't see or back way intpo exoplorded tarretory if you can
05:54:52 <monqy> elliott: anyway you can probably survive this
05:55:08 <Patashu> use the potion of heal wounds to heal
05:55:14 <elliott> there's a trap, could i maybe run to trap, just asking
05:55:23 <monqy> you can run it just won't get you away from the human. it will hit you but less frequently
05:55:31 <monqy> you cant get to the trap
05:55:34 <monqy> it's enclosed in walls
05:55:37 <Patashu> btw, I just thought of something
05:55:40 <monqy> it's sword in stone vault
05:55:40 <Patashu> has elliot been bothering to upgrade armour
05:55:55 <elliott> should i move before doing that
05:55:59 <elliott> or is here as good a place as any
05:56:36 <monqy> wha y are you attacking
05:56:47 <elliott> 06:55 <Patashu> trog's hand and hit it
05:56:56 <Patashu> well I shouldn't have should I
05:57:04 <elliott> "heal me up" was ambiguous
05:57:12 <Patashu> curing is good enough at low levels
05:57:13 <zzo38> elliott: Do you have "heal woulds"?
05:57:21 <Patashu> I don't have any woulds that need healing
05:57:49 <monqy> backpedaling will reducce the frequency at which the human hits you
05:57:57 <monqy> you can recast trogs hand once it expires
05:58:03 <monqy> aim for a staircase you can go up
05:58:14 <monqy> then you will only have things that are adjacent to you to worry about
05:58:20 <monqy> and you can maybe berkem by then
05:58:32 <elliott> i cant really aim for anything
05:59:02 <Patashu> look at all that shit you had
05:59:28 <elliott> how do you call up message history
05:59:35 <Patashu> that is the worst entry vault I've ever seen
05:59:44 <monqy> Patashu: there's a kobold with disperasal darts
05:59:47 <monqy> Patashu: and a secret door i think
05:59:50 <monqy> Patashu: but yeah it's bad
05:59:58 <Patashu> turn off everything except maces and flails
06:00:03 <elliott> im dont do anything patashu says after latst time without monqy confirmation
06:00:25 <Patashu> anyway the reason why you do that is
06:00:29 <Patashu> more m&f = lower weapon delay
06:00:29 <monqy> maybe identify stuff if youre ok with that sort of thing. generally the thing to do is read scrolls to identify them and use id scrolls on potions, since bad scrolls arent so bad but bad potions are real badlike
06:00:36 <Patashu> lower weapon delay = you get hit less because you hit more faster like
06:00:40 <Patashu> so it's the best thing to raise early on
06:00:52 <elliott> i dont really know HOW to identify stuff :x :x :x
06:00:54 <monqy> i dunno if you're at a learning point at which you should bother with skills
06:00:57 <monqy> elliott: just use them
06:01:23 <Sgeo> elliott, read-iding works with many scrolls, although id/enchant armor/recharge it would be useful with spoilers
06:01:48 <elliott> this is what happens when i spam tab
06:01:56 <monqy> you werent in a chokke pont
06:02:12 <Patashu> the only tough monster on D:1
06:02:15 <monqy> elliott: it wouldn't hurt to do the skill thing where you disable everything but m&f for aw hile but ehh
06:02:18 <Sgeo> elliott, basically, scrolls that can be used on items are either ID or enchant armor or recharge
06:02:24 <monqy> elliott: if you want to: hit m to open the skille menu
06:02:27 <Sgeo> One of the tutorials actually goes through that
06:02:46 <monqy> u disabled maces and flal
06:03:07 <Patashu> doesn't matter if you're only training one thing
06:03:10 <monqy> asteris makes them train faster relative to ther skills you have on
06:03:13 <Patashu> * means 'disproprtionately train this'
06:03:28 <Patashu> turn off everything that isn't m&f
06:03:37 <monqy> also you may want to switch to manual mode it doesnt mater when youre only training one thing
06:03:50 <Sgeo> I do not understand the m screen at all
06:03:50 <monqy> Sgeo: don't you play crawl?
06:04:15 <Patashu> D:1 is always full of long corridors
06:04:17 <Sgeo> monqy, not much
06:04:44 <monqy> you always seem so enthusiastic about it
06:04:51 <monqy> talking about xom and stuff
06:05:05 <Patashu> btw, if you see any gloves, helmets, hats, boots, shields or whatever
06:05:10 <elliott> its like that thing that sgeo knows a lot about but has never played ever i forget what it is
06:05:10 <Patashu> pick them up and wear them (they won't autopickup)
06:05:57 <Sgeo> elliott, NetHack? DF? (Although I would not say I know a lot about either)
06:06:05 <Sgeo> DF especially I seem to prefer reading stories over playing
06:06:43 <monqy> mutation is a bad idea
06:06:47 <monqy> unless you like bad ideas
06:06:51 <monqy> (bad ideas can be fun)
06:06:51 <Patashu> it makes the early game more exciting
06:06:54 <monqy> ((bad ideas can also be bad))
06:07:00 <monqy> at this early point it's probably a good idea to quaf it
06:07:07 <Patashu> mutation makes your life more exciting
06:07:21 <Patashu> potions of mutation are 100% random
06:07:22 <Sgeo> Mutations are ... could be a resistance. Could be something else
06:07:39 <monqy> you got more hp (good), less mp (doesnt matter), and you move slwoly (bad)
06:07:42 <elliott> i dont want to cover ground slowly
06:08:06 <monqy> die from being slwo
06:08:12 <monqy> if by increase you mean
06:08:13 <Patashu> you can fix it via a few ways
06:08:36 <monqy> potion of cure mutatiosn, zin, jiyva
06:08:38 <elliott> + & also y r u peer pressuring jerks
06:08:56 <Sgeo> Don't both Zin and Jiyva suck?
06:08:58 <Patashu> (the scroll that did nothing is either remove curse or amnesia)
06:09:03 <Sgeo> Well, I've heard worse about Zin
06:09:07 <Patashu> is good as a swap for late game
06:09:13 <elliott> saying reither mreove curse of aensia
06:09:15 <monqy> Sgeo: are you listening to stories from bad people
06:09:40 <monqy> paralys is abd you can drop it
06:09:45 <monqy> d- to drop useles item
06:09:55 <monqy> you cant throw potion
06:10:02 <monqy> you cant dip either
06:10:07 <elliott> i dont care i want o keep it
06:10:11 <elliott> i ever need to be paralysde
06:10:15 <monqy> it's either encfhant armour or recharg wand
06:10:18 <monqy> and you dont have any wand
06:10:22 <elliott> i recharged my animal skin wand
06:10:37 <Sgeo> monqy, with evaporate...
06:10:38 <monqy> also wands dont explod
06:10:46 <monqy> Sgeo: shshshshshshshshssh
06:10:51 <monqy> Sgeo: also eliots trog
06:10:58 <Sgeo> monqy, oh, right
06:10:58 <monqy> he won't worship evaporate
06:11:07 <monqy> trog doesnt like magic
06:11:09 <Sgeo> elliott, Trog is antimagic
06:11:19 <monqy> lure the gnolls into the corridor
06:11:30 <Sgeo> elliott, spellbooks are useful with Trog though
06:11:35 <monqy> does the gnoll have a polearm
06:11:35 <Sgeo> You can make them burst into flame
06:11:46 <Patashu> wait for him to walk next to you
06:11:47 <monqy> ok try running back again
06:12:19 <elliott> i used my zerk to get out of the net
06:12:23 <monqy> the problem with zerking then is you're stuk in the net and berk will expire quickly with you trying to get out of it
06:12:27 <Patashu> you can kill things while in a net
06:12:34 <Patashu> you can't melee while in a net?
06:13:02 <monqy> does the other gnoll have a polearm
06:13:27 <Patashu> you can cast -spells- while under a net
06:13:34 <monqy> kobolds cant throw nets
06:13:34 <Patashu> (unless kobolds can't use them?)
06:13:40 <monqy> kobolds are too smalle
06:13:43 <Patashu> well if you could use it it would be awesome
06:13:47 <elliott> forgot to wait for non-exh
06:13:55 <monqy> dont need to berk the jackal
06:14:02 <Patashu> it's not like they're brogue jackals
06:14:22 <monqy> brogue jackals arne't so bad
06:14:35 <Patashu> it's easy to slip and die to them
06:14:41 <monqy> what's annoying is brogue vampire bad packs. not really hard most of the time but augh so annoying
06:14:41 <Patashu> because they spawn in packs on D:3 and move super fast
06:14:50 <Patashu> yeah vampire bats are worse
06:14:54 <Patashu> but you have darts for them at least
06:15:22 <monqy> brogue ogres can also be a problem early on. brogures
06:15:30 <Patashu> ogres at least you can run away from indefinitely
06:15:42 <zzo38> A monad transformer for Either would be simple: lift = EitherT . fmap Right; join (EitherT x) = EitherT (x >>= either (return . Left) id);
06:15:47 <monqy> dont bother with it right now at least
06:15:49 <elliott> zzo38: its in transformers
06:15:55 <Patashu> I prefer ac builds to ev builds
06:15:59 <Patashu> but I haven't played with them as much
06:16:22 <monqy> don't bother with armours until you have your other stuff down
06:16:31 <elliott> i never have my other stuff down
06:16:32 <zzo38> elliott: I didn't see it in transformers
06:16:35 <monqy> and then you rpobalby want a dragon armour or something
06:17:08 <monqy> maybe could put on leather armour if you found it
06:17:24 <monqy> ring mail hurts a bit more than leather armour so if you want to take baby steps go leather first
06:17:26 <zzo38> elliott: I didn't find it in mtl either; but I looked I found it in the package called EitherT
06:17:35 <elliott> monqy: btw is there an equivalent of nethack ant
06:17:40 <coppro> I have just come up with the best idea ever
06:17:45 <elliott> zzo38: oh wait it was an edwardk package it was in
06:17:49 <coppro> elliott: have you played nethack4 yet?
06:17:52 <Patashu> appears in packs, is unnecessarily dangerous?
06:17:53 <elliott> monqy: uhhh in nethack beginners die to swarms of ants a lot
06:18:04 <coppro> we need an IRC-based client for nethack
06:19:00 <monqy> and rest to full hp etc
06:19:06 <zzo38> join (EitherT x) = EitherT (x >>= either (return . Left) runEitherT); is what it should be
06:19:12 <monqy> and dont flee into unexplored area
06:19:17 <Patashu> 1586697 games for *: 448897x , 100673x a hobgoblin, 96271x a kobold, 59749x a gnoll, 49001x an orc priest, 48617x an orc wizard, 46036x a snake, 42409x an ogre, 41408x Sigmund, 38909x a goblin, 36786x an orc, 27486x an orc warrior, 27406x a centaur, 27355x a jackal, 27330x a giant gecko, 18774x a worm, 13987x Terence, 13309x Ijyb, 12979x a giant cockroach, 12313x a rat, 12188x an ooze, 10628x
06:19:35 <Patashu> yeah I don't know how people die to her
06:19:40 <elliott> do i want glowing orcish short sworde
06:20:00 <monqy> if you find a better mace or flail and have decednt attack delay with it
06:20:13 <monqy> as a maces kobe you are probably aiming for a demon blade
06:20:24 <monqy> elliott: might want to trogs hand it for the mr to avoid confusion
06:20:29 <Patashu> orc wizards are easy if you can get into melee with them
06:20:52 <Patashu> the orc wizard is forced to approach you
06:20:57 <Patashu> since it can't shoot past the gnoll
06:21:04 <monqy> Patashu: unless it blinks to the other side
06:21:09 <monqy> Patashu: unless it blinks away
06:21:18 <Patashu> keep hitting the thing in front of you
06:21:20 <coppro> I kind of really want to write this client now.
06:21:24 <coppro> IRC colors and everything.
06:21:30 <monqy> get to a corner so the orc wizard will have to get next to you and can't blink away without getting out of sight
06:21:35 <monqy> so it can't shoot at you from afar
06:21:49 <monqy> then just plow through or backpedal
06:21:52 <elliott> i should be able to get rid of it
06:21:52 <Patashu> walk backwards until the quokka catches up with you
06:21:55 <zzo38> But the package implements it in a way which seems too long to me such as EitherT x >>= f = EitherT $ do { res <- x; case res of { Right r -> runEitherT . f $ r; Left l -> return (Left l); }; };
06:22:20 <monqy> you mgiht want to trogs hand but
06:22:30 <coppro> we could have a collective game going
06:22:30 <elliott> i think i want to zerk him now
06:22:33 <coppro> !map and it sends you the map
06:22:36 <EgoBot> mapmapmapmapmapmapmapmapmapmapmap
06:22:38 <coppro> !north it moves you north, etc.
06:22:54 <Patashu> because of that other orc wizard down there v
06:22:55 <coppro> THIS IS SUCH A GREAT IDEA RIGHT GUYS
06:23:15 <coppro> elliott: should I write this?
06:23:29 <monqy> ruin down the stairs
06:23:32 <elliott> in the three seconds before i die
06:23:45 <zzo38> coppro: Write it only if you like to do so
06:23:56 <monqy> elliott: stairs take a bit more than a turn to descend so
06:24:04 <Patashu> (that would have been useful)
06:24:05 <elliott> doesnt that mean i could have escaped
06:24:08 <monqy> could have identified that speed potion
06:24:19 <Patashu> btw any source of haste in crawl is very overpowered
06:24:22 <Patashu> it makes you do everything 1.5x as fast
06:24:42 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Sat Apr 21 23:24:40 2012
06:25:57 <elliott> ive started new game ready
06:27:21 <elliott> Patashu: are you ready to give me bad advice
06:27:52 <zzo38> coppro: Are you good at Pokemon Card?
06:28:08 <coppro> zzo38: do you have another puzzle?
06:28:17 <coppro> elliott: which server?
06:28:30 <coppro> for the stupid, please expand acronym
06:29:24 <zzo38> coppro: No, but I would want to know what someone else knowing Pokemon Card would think of this: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_14/pokemoncard1.png Such as, who is winning and so on. I do have a later picture too
06:29:35 <zzo38> (Can you read Japanese a bit?)
06:29:48 <coppro> zzo38: No, I cannot read japanese
06:29:49 <monqy> you can kill plant if you hit it enough but it's usually not worth the bother
06:30:00 <monqy> bushes are even less worth the bother
06:30:13 <coppro> zzo38: I am also not familiar enough with the video game to interpret the situation from that screenshot
06:30:13 <elliott> i fucking hate it when things flee
06:30:30 <elliott> now that ive made your life a bother
06:30:35 <elliott> im gonna deny you the privilege of killing me
06:31:11 <elliott> thats pretty useless actually
06:31:22 <Patashu> for mapping branch ends and so on
06:31:23 <zzo38> coppro: You do not need to know the video game; everything there should be clear of the card game. The top player has already taken one side card, and has seven cards in hand and eight cards in trash and twenty-four cards in draw pile. Hopefully everything else is clear. (If not, ask.)
06:31:28 <monqy> magic mapping is useful on branch endings and for mapping out zot for diving i
06:31:46 <monqy> particularly for mapping out special pandemonium levels if you want to do a controlled teleport to the rune
06:31:52 <zzo38> coppro: Also, have you shown anyone else the two puzzles I have written? You are the only one I have shown who could solve them
06:32:16 <coppro> No, I have not. I don't know very many people who play Pokemon and I don't talk to any of them on a regular basis
06:32:26 <coppro> As for your earlier question, I don't know what all the cards do
06:32:29 <elliott> patashu peer prssured me so much
06:32:39 <zzo38> COPPRO: Also, the swirl icon next to KANGASKHAN means confuse
06:32:43 <monqy> dont bother with the scale mail
06:33:06 <monqy> ring mail would be better than scale mail for you right now, and leather better than that, but animal skin might really be best at the meoment
06:33:11 <Patashu> the mundane forms of armour, from least to most AC, is: animal skin/robe < leather < ring < scale < chain < splint < plate
06:33:12 <zzo38> coppro: I can give you the card texts. Wait a moment.
06:33:38 <elliott> and ran away before i could bash it in
06:34:01 <Patashu> you'll find that downstairs suck as an escape route
06:34:09 <Patashu> I once fled from an orc warrior downstairs
06:34:21 <Patashu> bother with that duder later
06:34:44 <Patashu> he probably had a shitload of hand axes
06:35:13 <Patashu> when you butcher two or more chunks
06:35:38 <Patashu> you're too busy worshipping trog to worship okawaru
06:35:48 <Patashu> scroll of blinking? potion of levitation?
06:35:53 <zzo38> KANGHASKHAN [Lv40]: Retreat cost 3, weak { # }, resist { @ }, attacks: { * } FETCH: draw a card; { **** } COMET PUNCH: Damage 2*coins(4).
06:36:25 <monqy> blink/tele from distortion hit/unwield
06:36:40 <monqy> tloc miscast from god wrath
06:36:40 <elliott> that guy must have high standards
06:36:47 <Patashu> okawaru? nah he's pretty chill
06:36:58 <Patashu> the only chiller god is cheibriados
06:36:59 <monqy> you want chill? go chei
06:37:20 <Patashu> he hates it if you cast spells
06:37:27 <zzo38> DARK CHARIZARD [Lv38]: Retreat 3, weak { 6 }, resist { # }, attacks: { * } NAIL FLICK: 1 damage; { MM } CONTINUOUS FIREBALLS: Toss coins equal to number of energy cards, each heads discards one energy and 5 damage
06:38:50 <zzo38> CHARMANDER [Lv9]: Retreat 1, weak { 6 }, no resist, power: GATHER FIRE: One during your turn if not sleep/confuse/paralyze, you can move one fire energy from another of your cards to this one. attacks: FIRE TAIL: does 2 point of damage
06:39:08 <Patashu> who knew iguanas were so dangerous
06:39:19 <Patashu> zerking doesn't work if you wait until you have 1 hp left
06:39:43 <monqy> did you wait until you had 1 hp left to zerk
06:39:45 <monqy> yeah don't do that
06:39:46 <elliott> monqy is going to come back and
06:39:58 <elliott> but then i had 1hp suddenly
06:40:09 <Patashu> elliott: do you have a query open to Gretell
06:40:19 <Patashu> <Gretell> iguana (l) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-24 | AC/EV: 5/9 | Damage: 15 | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: magic(12) | XP: 37.
06:40:20 <monqy> one of the ##crawl bots
06:40:22 <Patashu> a magical bot of wonderousness
06:40:23 <monqy> could just join ##crawl
06:40:26 <zzo38> HAUNTER [Lv17]: Retreat cost zero, no weakness, resist { # }, power: TRANSPARENCY: If not speel/confuse/paralyze, toss a coin if any attack has an effect on this card, and if heads negate all effects; attack: NIGHTMARE: 1 point of damage and opponent sleeps
06:40:27 <monqy> probably nobody would hate you
06:40:37 <monqy> they're nice people
06:40:45 <monqy> except for ebarett
06:40:46 <elliott> ill stick to #esoteric FOR NOW
06:41:02 <elliott> i dont like the sound of that :(
06:41:19 <monqy> he often has good opinions but
06:41:25 <monqy> just has a tendency to be a jerk about them
06:41:27 <zzo38> DROWZEE [Lv12]: Retreat 1, weak { @ }, resist none, attack: { * } POUND: 1 damage; { @@ } CONFUSE: 1 damage and toss a coin if heads confused opponent.
06:41:29 <elliott> i dont care about good opinions
06:41:38 <elliott> like having good opinions is the most worthless skill ever anyone can do that
06:41:44 <monqy> good because lots of people in ##crawl have bad opionions
06:41:55 <elliott> why can't everyone just be monqy
06:42:33 <zzo38> JYNX [Lv23]: Retreat 2, weak { @ }, no resistance; attacks: { @ } DOUBLESLAP: Two coins, 1 damage per heads; { @@* } MEDITATE: Damage is 2 + amount of damage already on opponent
06:42:44 <zzo38> coppro: OK, does this help?
06:43:04 <monqy> 20:25:41: <elliott> ais523: What's a good roguelike that doesn't end in "Hack"?
06:43:10 <monqy> as far as roguelikes go, imo brogue is good
06:43:33 <Patashu> brogue reasons: popping a bloat to kill the pack of jackals mobbing you
06:45:12 <Patashu> the door puzzle on level 3 just had a bunch of scrolls
06:45:38 <monqy> what if the'yre good scroles
06:45:52 <Patashu> enchantment is guaranteed to be generated at a certain rate
06:45:55 <Patashu> and all the other scrolls are just ok
06:46:17 <Patashu> it's the game gypping you out of an awesome staff/weapon
06:47:15 <coppro> zzo38: I would say that the bottom player has the advantage
06:47:21 <elliott> scroll of random uselessness
06:47:35 <Patashu> you don't have to go i -> item -> r
06:47:43 <coppro> zzo38: the top player's pokemon are not very useful. Kangaskhan will die to a meditate
06:47:54 <coppro> and the charizards are terribly without any fire energy
06:48:01 <Patashu> since you don't know id yet
06:48:43 <monqy> enhcant weapon 1 increases accurac, 2 increases damag
06:48:47 <zzo38> coppro: You are correct about the bottom player having the advantage, but not quite right about the meditate. Here is a later state of the game: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_14/pokemoncardII.png
06:48:55 <elliott> 27 poisoned needles its my lucky day
06:49:28 <coppro> oh wait that is fire energy
06:50:06 <zzo38> coppro: Yes it is fire energy, although I don't know what you are refering to.
06:50:14 <elliott> change the skill thing any time soon
06:50:26 <coppro> zzo38: I thought the energy on top was colorless
06:51:41 <zzo38> coppro: On top of what? Do you mean the energy attached to KANGASKHAN [Lv40]? It doesn't matter since that card can use any energy to attack. (However, in the first picture, it is confused.)
06:52:31 <coppro> zzo38: attached to the Charizards
06:52:35 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: leaving).
06:52:43 -!- coppro has joined.
06:52:46 <zzo38> (Note: In the second picture, Charmander has ten fire energies.)
06:52:49 <monqy> you cant dig metalle walls
06:52:51 <zzo38> coppro: Yes, they are fire
06:52:57 <elliott> i htink monqy is distracted by genius loges
06:52:58 <monqy> and they are ground to lightning i think
06:53:14 <monqy> im still diestract
06:53:32 <Patashu> why do you do this to yourself
06:53:49 <monqy> im distracted and then i look aback and 1hp and zerked
06:54:04 <Patashu> zerk isn't something you can use at low hp
06:54:21 <elliott> now watch as i die in the next 10 turns
06:54:22 <Patashu> if I want to die a lot on D:4
06:54:41 <monqy> elliott: someone with a name starting with "elli" joine ##crawl and i thought it was you for a second
06:54:47 <monqy> turns out it was just elliptic
06:54:48 <coppro> I'm sorry, I don't agree that that tip was professional
06:54:56 <coppro> it's just an amateur tip
06:55:05 <monqy> elliott: by the way you should join ##crawl just because you'd have the same four-letter prefix as one of the regulars
06:55:19 <zzo38> coppro: OK, did you see the second picture? It is just a later picture of the same duel
06:56:22 <Patashu> you probably can't afford anything though
06:56:37 <zzo38> Do you think the ten fire energies on Charmander is for MR.FUJI to fill up your draw pile, or to make a large attack later? Actually it is just a bluff.
06:56:37 <elliott> i can afford a cursed -6 ring of dexterity
06:57:24 <Patashu> [$] selected -> shopping list
06:57:26 <Patashu> it means when you get 390 gold
06:57:30 <zzo38> elliott: Well, if you need to reduce your dexterity it might be useful (I don't know why you need to do that); but you should probably remove the curse so that the ring can be removed when you want to put your dexterity score back to normal
06:57:31 <Patashu> crawl will be 'ding! you can afford this now'
06:57:58 <monqy> ring of regen is one of the lamer regeneration sources
06:58:01 <monqy> i forget if it's any good
06:58:01 <Patashu> you don't have to decide NOW
06:58:12 <elliott> ive decided i dont trust patshu
06:58:21 <Patashu> you should do exactly the opposite of what I say
06:58:27 <Patashu> buy the -6 ring of dexterity and wear it
06:59:15 <Patashu> early game ogres basically murder ppl
06:59:48 <elliott> escape to jewerlyry shoppe
07:00:04 <monqy> watch as orc kiles you
07:00:27 <monqy> it would counteract the pois at least
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07:00:32 <zzo38> coppro: It seem you know Pokemon Card better than the other people who have tried to answer the puzzles and analyze the pictures; nobody else could understand even if they know Pokemon Card
07:00:34 <monqy> you might not need it
07:00:37 <monqy> whatever it won't really hurt
07:00:48 <zzo38> coppro: Also, if *you* make a puzzle for Pokemon Card please tell me
07:01:00 <coppro> zzo38: I do enjoy puzzles, so if you have more, I would like to know
07:01:01 <monqy> can just rest it off
07:01:09 <coppro> I don't think I will make any in the near future, but I will tell you if I do.
07:01:21 <monqy> berking that adder?
07:01:32 <monqy> adderberk isn't such a agreat idea past the very first few levels
07:02:34 <coppro> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adder_(electronics)
07:02:37 <monqy> also have you found any more maces or flaisles
07:02:51 <monqy> did you pickt ehm up
07:03:00 <zzo38> coppro: I will tell you if I have more puzzles. Currently I have none but I would like you or someone else to make some that I can look at; if it isn't you either then we can both try it
07:03:19 <Patashu> I almost always die early game in brogue
07:03:22 <Patashu> but I almost never die early game in crawl
07:03:24 <monqy> elliott: could searhc for mace
07:03:25 <Patashu> I wonder if anyone out there is the opposite
07:03:37 <monqy> don't run for the stairs
07:03:47 <monqy> go around the corner
07:04:04 <monqy> now would be a good stop
07:04:32 <monqy> those are alll the amces
07:04:41 <monqy> they dont look too special
07:04:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `meh'': not found
07:04:59 <elliott> should i trya nd kill orcish wizerd
07:04:59 <monqy> it's a bit more resistant to corrision but ehh whatever
07:05:06 <monqy> if you don't charge into it
07:05:21 <monqy> and make sure you're in melee range and it's not blinking everwhere, and yoi're 1vs1ing it
07:05:58 <zzo38> coppro: I would also ask if you know about defensive strategies/tactics in chess? I find some of their tactics can be played in Pokemon Card too, actually
07:06:16 <monqy> sure but don't pick it up now
07:06:21 <monqy> go around the corner so the wizard cant see you
07:06:25 <Patashu> blowgun + anything else is usually a wasteof time
07:06:41 <monqy> needles can be good early game
07:06:52 <monqy> might want to try the glowing hammer
07:07:00 <monqy> you've got a corner to hide behind
07:07:00 <elliott> i think ill fight orcish wizard in that corridor
07:07:24 <monqy> one thing about berking wiszards is they blink away
07:07:36 <monqy> might want to trogshandok flee
07:08:00 <monqy> maybe curing first
07:08:18 <monqy> trogshand and hide behind the corner
07:08:22 <monqy> so the other wizard cant see you
07:08:35 <monqy> ok remember where the wziard is
07:08:39 <monqy> since its invisibeblel
07:08:45 <monqy> wizard is still there
07:08:53 <monqy> if you pick up the hammer
07:09:16 <monqy> it upgraded its weapon
07:09:26 <monqy> it wont work since you cant see it
07:10:09 <monqy> none of the spells sets with invis have blink
07:10:27 <Patashu> (I haven't memorized spell sets for any enemies :( )
07:10:32 <Patashu> (well for the ones that change them around)
07:10:34 <monqy> Patashu: i queried it in ##crawl
07:10:58 <elliott> still another orc wizard tho
07:11:04 <elliott> i think ill get that nice hammer then leg it to a stairs
07:11:12 <elliott> im never going to get that hammer am i
07:11:17 <monqy> you'll get it eventually
07:11:49 <Patashu> btw the hammer will be slightly worse than your mace, unless it has a cool brand like flaming or freezing
07:12:20 <monqy> 01:58:51: <NSQX> Well, for just this moment, think of any characters which are not yet mapped to any UniCode instructions, then type the character and your proposed instruction on this IRC channel. Of course, unlike a wiki, anything you type here does not fill up any server.
07:12:32 <elliott> monqy!!! i need ur attention
07:12:39 <elliott> no wiz gonna stop me get my hammer
07:12:48 <elliott> patashu said its slightly worse
07:13:02 <Patashu> (in which case it's better)
07:13:13 <monqy> youd be hable to tell by now
07:13:24 <monqy> i forget which is better of hammer and mace
07:13:49 <Patashu> I've now officially played more games of brogue than of crawl
07:13:59 <elliott> don't wanna have to eat when in melee
07:14:11 <monqy> orc priests can smite you from behind enemies
07:14:41 <monqy> kill priest first, then the other orcs
07:14:47 <monqy> unless a wizard comes
07:15:27 <elliott> holy shit this is orc town
07:15:34 <monqy> ou probably ate a roten chunk or soetmhgntn
07:15:48 <monqy> nasuea just means you cant eat more chunks for the moment
07:15:52 <monqy> kill it dont backpedal
07:15:57 <monqy> maybe hand, dont zerk
07:16:17 <monqy> look at its logfile
07:16:27 <monqy> ask sequell, politely
07:16:40 <elliott> 08:16 <elliott> hi whats log file ofsoul
07:16:43 <monqy> !log soul defe d:4
07:16:56 <elliott> 08:16 <Sequell> 24. soul, XL4 DEFE, T:1489: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/soul/morgue-soul-20120422-065107.txt
07:17:17 <monqy> oh it doesn't haeve the scary splells
07:17:24 <monqy> not too much worry then
07:17:33 <monqy> unless it proves fhchanelgnging
07:17:49 <monqy> kill the wizard while it's next to you
07:17:56 <monqy> and if it blinks away go back to the ghost
07:19:23 <elliott> is that thing actually useful for anything ever
07:21:01 <monqy> probably charge them and berk once next to them
07:22:11 <monqy> if you really want to use it then use it
07:22:21 <monqy> not without more str
07:22:26 <monqy> more armour skill maybe
07:22:30 <monqy> preferably not on a kobold
07:22:32 <elliott> is scale mail better than skin though im just asking
07:22:34 <Patashu> yeah he needs two more str points
07:22:40 <elliott> aint got much smarts in me
07:22:54 <monqy> your target is probably dragon armour or something
07:23:19 <elliott> how can i tell if its heavy
07:23:41 <monqy> you want to have as much str as the evasion penalty times 3
07:23:56 <monqy> to get the maximum benefit str can have on armour
07:24:00 <monqy> beyond that you need armour skill
07:24:05 <monqy> what do you mean hevye
07:24:21 <elliott> or can i just carry it around "§uncaringley§"
07:24:28 <monqy> a cap on how much burden you can have
07:24:35 <monqy> and how many inventory letters you can have
07:24:38 <elliott> does it matter should i worry about carrying around scale mail
07:24:39 <monqy> dont worry about it right now
07:24:47 <monqy> if you need to drop it later you can
07:25:48 <monqy> crimson imps are annoying since they regenderate hp quickly and blink around
07:26:17 <monqy> oone comone way to deal with them is to "park" them on a previous level by leading them to a staircas, taking it with it adjacent, waiting for ot to blink away, and going down
07:26:27 <elliott> i prefer just waiting for it and berk
07:26:43 <monqy> also im really tired owwwow i shoudl slep before i give bad advice
07:26:48 <monqy> eyeballs will para you
07:26:54 <monqy> jelly will corrode your stuff and kill you
07:26:59 <monqy> do not ifhgt stuff in front of an eyeball
07:27:07 <elliott> what should i do to eyball
07:27:16 <monqy> nothing's around naymroe
07:27:23 <monqy> oyu mighty want a replacement for your mace sometime
07:27:36 <monqy> preferably: something better than a mace
07:27:39 <elliott> so i dont wake up this basterd
07:28:13 <elliott> wow scorpions are assholes
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07:28:49 <monqy> have other better options but
07:29:46 <zzo38> Do you agree or disagree: No free man should be hanged twice for the same offence.
07:30:11 <monqy> what about free ghosts
07:30:23 <monqy> are ghost ever free
07:30:29 <monqy> elliott: close distance while it's asleep
07:30:40 <monqy> elliott: if you have trouble you can berk it
07:30:46 <monqy> berk before having trouble
07:30:49 <monqy> yeah that was good
07:31:07 <elliott> ive lurned from my scoprion mistakes
07:31:35 <Sgeo> elliott, eating poison isn't the most possible thing
07:31:41 <elliott> why are there so many scorpions
07:32:28 <Sgeo> elliott, me being stupid and referencing Homestuck
07:32:35 <elliott> monqy: i feel like im becoming
07:32:43 <elliott> Sgeo: isnt that... spiders
07:32:58 <Sgeo> elliott, but she is a Scorpio, so
07:33:12 <monqy> scorpiones are pretty much spiders
07:34:02 <elliott> i guess i dont need to yet
07:34:14 <monqy> it's with 'a' just like the other things
07:34:23 <monqy> it's called brothers in arms
07:34:30 <Patashu> ok, this game of brogue I have some actually good items
07:34:38 <Patashu> sword of slowing, leather armour of mutuality, staff of lightning, staff of obstruction
07:34:39 <monqy> also trog powers have power based on piety so at high piety they will be bettter
07:34:40 <oklopol> duddes duddes, the short music programs things was horribly cool.
07:34:41 <Patashu> remind me not to die this time
07:34:45 <Sgeo> elliott, Trog isn't too boring for you?
07:35:04 <Patashu> all he can do is hit you with his flail
07:35:24 <elliott> uhhh who should i be hitting
07:35:29 <Patashu> doesn't matter you're dead
07:35:32 <monqy> for letting this happen
07:35:56 <Sgeo> elliott, hey, with #nethack help you survived shk wrath
07:35:58 <monqy> i dont know ;_; i want to sleeep
07:36:10 <elliott> am i keeping monqy awake oops
07:36:20 <elliott> pick it up when monqy isnt tired
07:36:22 <Patashu> it doesn't matter because you're dead
07:36:31 <monqy> hit obhth btobhthbh
07:36:36 <elliott> can i sent in reinforcements
07:36:39 <monqy> jk you cant hit both
07:36:41 <monqy> not when youre berk
07:36:44 <Patashu> when you're zerk all you can do
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07:37:04 <elliott> i did better than all the previous times
07:37:11 <Sgeo> elliott, why Kobold and not Troll?
07:37:22 <elliott> because of those kobold camp comics
07:39:13 <Patashu> ok, this staff of lightning
07:39:16 <Patashu> is pretty good at killing things
07:40:12 <oklopol> more like the kill staff of killightning.
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07:40:48 <Patashu> now I have two staffs of lightning
07:40:54 <Patashu> I should duct tape them together
07:42:04 <elliott> can i watch you play somehow
07:42:35 <Patashu> I could livestream it but it'd be hard to see because of how big it is
07:43:49 <Patashu> crawl only makes fun of people who think the game is based on luck
07:43:53 <Patashu> or who think they're good when they aren't
07:44:20 <elliott> but i kind of think it is based on luck though
07:44:26 <elliott> my losses are based on stupidity
07:44:42 <elliott> but i can't deny there's something really arbitrary about it
07:47:55 <elliott> this is my third day of playing crawl bte
07:48:29 <elliott> This seems like a good idea, and I support it, but I suspect NSQX will manage to mess it up somehow. —Maharba 05:45, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
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07:53:40 <Sgeo> elliott, enjoying it?
07:54:00 * Sgeo is going to play a bit, not sure as what
07:54:11 <elliott> play kobold beerekrkserker it ts the funetste
07:54:19 <Sgeo> I want to play a spellcaster
07:54:25 <Sgeo> And I play troll berserker a lot, so
07:55:28 <Sgeo> "Transmuters shift their form to fight in a beast's shape"
07:55:29 <Patashu> what kind of spellcasters have you won as so far
07:55:48 <Sgeo> Patashu, I have never won Crawl
07:55:58 <Patashu> you get blade hands and stab everything with them
07:56:11 <Sgeo> Patashu, that sounds slightly boring
07:56:29 <Sgeo> Sludge Elf or Spriggan?
07:57:00 <Sgeo> Welcome, Sgeo the Demonspawn Transmuter
07:57:56 <Sgeo> What is good about claws for hands?
07:58:02 <Sgeo> Other than that's what trolls have
07:58:19 <Patashu> turn off everything except uc and transmutations
07:58:31 <Sgeo> Patashu, what about fighting?
07:58:40 <Patashu> fighting doesn't offer a large benefit until xl16
08:00:00 <Sgeo> Patashu, not spellcasting? not dodging?
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08:00:22 <elliott> vmklerpe gojwp ejfopj thjiowemc s/r[pgk xpojer
08:00:27 <elliott> lkejr qorj xigowpkrm lkmvb.,mjyew[p w[ kpc[kvmx.,mwe t;fl
08:00:27 <Patashu> and uc and transmutations help you the most
08:00:35 <Patashu> the first transmutation lets you use a weapon, right?
08:00:42 <Patashu> so I guess you can use a weapon instead of uc if you like
08:01:12 <Sgeo> Automatic or manual?
08:01:24 <Patashu> I don't know I never fucked with that
08:02:21 <oklopol> are we discussing automatic vs manual fucking
08:02:37 <Sgeo> Patashu, I feel stupid
08:03:13 <Sgeo> HOW IS THAT USEFUL AT ALL?
08:03:25 <Sgeo> I have a pair of horns on my head. Lovely.
08:03:36 <Patashu> horns makes your headbutts do more damage
08:03:41 <Patashu> you're getting the perfect mutations for a tm
08:03:56 <Sgeo> Patashu, that was just the spell, not mutation
08:04:18 <Patashu> you should probably find a weapon that isn't shit in that case
08:04:21 <Patashu> and also use that at the same time
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08:05:08 <Patashu> holy FUCK I'm bad at brogue
08:05:45 <elliott> just hink u never bad at brogue as im crawl
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08:06:45 <elliott> my eyesnever stop multipleying
08:07:57 <Sgeo> Patashu, hand axe sufficient?
08:08:04 <elliott> you're gonna get kicked out of petrol with that attitude
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08:12:02 <Sgeo> I feel like I behaved stupidly
08:12:43 <Patashu> fighting ogres is a good way to die
08:12:50 <Patashu> when they're suddenly fodder
08:12:53 <elliott> unless you can berk ber ke berk
08:13:12 <elliott> wizards, jolly & ebullient
08:16:09 <Patashu> cool another death to vampire bats
08:16:12 <Patashu> I'm going to put brogue down
08:19:06 <Sgeo> elliott, playing again
08:21:53 * Sgeo asks a question in ##crawl
08:24:23 <elliott> Sgeo: did mym essages get droped
08:24:45 <Sgeo> I didn't notice until you said
08:24:50 <Sgeo> It does have the press _ thing
08:27:10 <Sgeo> Not a conductor?
08:28:53 <Sgeo> elliott, I'm scared
08:29:10 <Sgeo> elliott, should I zerk?
08:29:57 <Sgeo> Your shield and crystal plate armour prevent you from hitting the jelly.
08:30:00 <Sgeo> Now I'm ticked
08:30:28 <Sgeo> elliott, feel free to call me an idiot
08:30:52 <Sgeo> I had so much stuff in inventory... although I was berserking
08:30:55 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOSD_Program_Cubes oh boy can you say original research
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08:34:43 <fizzie> Origona... originnul... original resurr... original rece... origami resea... no, I can't.
08:35:11 <elliott> fizzie: Can you add clog to the access list?
08:35:15 <elliott> If it loses its connection, it'll lose its +o.
08:35:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, I finally got around to taking a photo of the errors on booting Arch.
08:35:43 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:36:08 -!- elliott has joined.
08:36:09 <elliott> VERY INTERESTING THAT I LOST CONNECTION RIGHT AFTER POINTING OUT AN UNFAIRNESS
08:36:14 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
08:36:14 -!- elliott has joined.
08:36:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: thats just the stack trace
08:37:05 <Sgeo> If you're short on gold for some particularly interesting commodity, you can place it onto your shopping list. The game will interrupt you when you have collected enough gold to finally purchase an item on that list. You can read the shopping list in the game with '$'.
08:37:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Oi, fizzie, fix my computer so I don't have to use Windows.
08:37:55 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: If it fits in the video memory scrollback buffer, shift-pageup a bit.
08:38:11 <fizzie> Though it might be too far gone after the error message for that.
08:38:38 <fizzie> Well, you can normally. Perhaps not after a panic.
08:39:19 <fizzie> Alternatively, try a serial-console boot, that lets you log that stuff up.
08:39:39 <elliott> fizzie: is clog on access list yet
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08:40:26 <elliott> warped jenkins exquisitely
08:41:31 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `wje'': not found
08:42:20 <elliott> `i'll always end up dying', he said, wje
08:42:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: i'll: not found
08:42:57 <elliott> Sgeo: whres your next game
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08:43:17 <elliott> hi Phantom_Hoover welcome to australia
08:43:23 <Sgeo> elliott, I'm reading the guide for some reason
08:43:26 <Sgeo> Also should eat soon
08:43:36 <elliott> —not that there's any accounting for taste—
08:44:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you'll need a serial cable
08:44:11 <fizzie> And serial ports in both computers.
08:44:59 <elliott> @ask monqy that german translation ISN'T faux german???
08:45:03 <elliott> @ask monqy like, it's real german?
08:45:34 <fizzie> A network console also exists, but your error might be slightly too early for that.
08:45:51 <oklopol> jwe jwe jwe jwe jwe jwe jwe jwe jwe
08:45:54 <oklopol> jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew
08:46:25 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: w`jè: not found
08:48:21 <elliott> # NOTE TO SELF: IF THIS DOESN'T WORK, FIX IT
08:48:30 <Sgeo> Apart from divine help, the most convenient way to do so is by reading a scroll of amnesia, which will let you pick a scroll to forget.
08:48:43 <elliott> : function try_corpsey_chunky_thing()
08:48:44 <Sgeo> Yes, please help me forget this scroll
08:49:07 <elliott> @tell monqy was rly disappointed that this code is well laid-out and readable
08:49:15 <elliott> @tell monqy please make it worse
08:51:31 <elliott> ^rainbow wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje
08:51:31 <fungot> wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje
08:51:34 <elliott> ^rainbow wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje
08:51:34 <fungot> wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje
08:51:35 <elliott> ^rainbow wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje
08:51:35 <fungot> wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje
08:51:36 <elliott> ^rainbow wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje
08:51:36 <fungot> wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje
09:00:00 <Sgeo> elliott, ok, I'll play a little with XOm
09:00:31 <Sgeo> lol with Chaos Knight, none of the species are recommended
09:00:38 <Sgeo> So I guess Chaos Knight is never recommended
09:01:12 <elliott> breathe the forging of a new era
09:01:22 <Sgeo> elliott, I am a HOCK
09:01:40 <Sgeo> elliott, you watching?
09:04:17 <oklopol> is "force" used in english in the sense of forcing a new meme? i can't find this in the urbandictionary, but what else would you use for it.
09:04:56 <oklopol> WHY IS IT NOT IN _THE_ URBANDICTIONARY THEN
09:05:06 <oklopol> it's almost as if that place sucks ass worms
09:09:12 <Sgeo> While it is active, you can't eat unless you are starving or near starving (and you only get half nutrition then).
09:19:00 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is 2012-04-22 09:18:59 +0000
09:19:05 <Sgeo> elliott, stones. Such a great gift
09:20:36 <Sgeo> Probably a useless amulet, but whatever
09:24:59 <Sgeo> elliott, did Xom just save my life?
09:25:05 <elliott> Your surroundings suddenly seem different.
09:25:05 <elliott> Your surroundings suddenly seem different.
09:25:07 <elliott> Your surroundings suddenly seem different.
09:25:09 <elliott> Your surroundings suddenly seem different.
09:25:11 <elliott> Your surroundings suddenly seem different.
09:25:13 <elliott> _Your surroundings suddenly seem different.
09:26:11 <Sgeo> I have no idea if that was a waste
09:27:46 * Sgeo barfs on elliott
09:28:04 <Sgeo> I'm going to go eat IRL
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10:07:33 <Patashu> so I just thought, if you're going to play a berzerker anyway
10:07:39 <Patashu> the point of being in light armour is so you can also cast spells, right
10:07:49 <Patashu> so if you worship trog I can't figure out what the point is
10:07:53 <Patashu> anyway the cool thing about armour is
10:07:57 <elliott> (i heard crawl's magic is boring though)
10:07:59 <Patashu> guaranteed damage reduction
10:08:04 <Patashu> (crawl's magic is cool fuck da haters)
10:08:09 <elliott> kind of the point of armour yes
10:08:46 <Patashu> GDR is actually slightly different from AC
10:08:55 <Patashu> it's based only on the base armour class of what you're wearing
10:09:39 <Patashu> 14 * (base AC-2)^(1/2)% is your GDR
10:09:44 <Patashu> in plate armour that's a whopping 39.6%
10:10:00 <Patashu> (unlike AC itself, which is just -1dAC)
10:10:05 <elliott> i really don't like the kind of people monqy doesn't like
10:10:25 <Patashu> you can wear plate as soon as you're in 18 str
10:10:32 <Patashu> the problem is finding a set, but until you find plate you can just use whatever you find
10:12:37 <elliott> how can i be anything without monqy
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10:14:46 <Patashu> the other cool thing about GDR is
10:14:52 <Patashu> you don't have to put -anything- in the armour skill for it to kick in
10:14:57 <Patashu> it works basically for free
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10:16:19 <Patashu> other things you can do: pick up and throw darts/spears/javelins at tough (melee) monsters while waiting for them to approach, pillar dance, fully explore each level before descending to the next
10:17:49 <elliott> last one is fucking boring jesus
10:17:52 <elliott> i tried that to start with
10:22:03 <Patashu> but it improves your survivability A LOT
10:22:16 <Patashu> and I find the later part of the game more fun than the earlier parts
10:22:16 <elliott> have you even SEEN the levels
10:22:24 <elliott> that's why i try to get to them
10:22:35 <Patashu> you won't get to them if you keep dying
10:22:57 <elliott> i've been dying less each time!
10:23:09 <elliott> fuck you man i'm gonna start a new game
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10:26:00 <elliott> wonder if that's worth getting
10:26:53 <Patashu> kobold with a dagger of venom
10:27:05 <Patashu> now you're berserk and dead
10:27:24 <Patashu> you were so close to the orb
10:27:31 <elliott> i don't even know where the orb is
10:27:35 <elliott> how many levels of dungeon are there before actual shit
10:28:06 <Patashu> 27 levels of the dungeon, then 5 levels of zot
10:28:10 <Patashu> buuut you need 3 runes to get into zot
10:28:13 <Patashu> and there are 0 runes in the main dungeon
10:28:23 <elliott> do you go to space to get them
10:28:36 <Patashu> except replace 'space' with 'snakes' 'the ocean' etc
10:29:17 <elliott> should i drop my aminal skin
10:29:22 <elliott> or might it be useful later
10:30:26 <elliott> uhhh maybe i should switch back to animal skin
10:30:40 <Patashu> 'curse' in crawl just means you can't take it off
10:30:45 <Patashu> pretty irrelevant right now
10:30:53 <Patashu> it's not like nethack where
10:31:05 <Patashu> cursed items turn into shitty versions
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10:31:29 <elliott> well that went better than expected
10:32:51 <Patashu> unlike iguanas and geckos, which are incredibly dangerous
10:33:01 <Patashu> you could die in two smites
10:34:26 <elliott> surprised i lasted that long
10:38:09 <elliott> what's the key for that :P
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10:38:38 <Patashu> so d is enchant armour or recharging
10:39:51 <NSQX> http://esolangs.org/wiki/--C-%3DC-C--
10:39:52 <Patashu> zap test that wand already
10:40:31 <elliott> that was not a desirable outcome
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10:42:08 <Patashu> the enchantment isn't so important
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10:42:47 <elliott> i.e., do i desperately need a new mace
10:42:54 <Patashu> it just means you can't take it off
10:42:54 <NSQX> http://esolangs.org/wiki/--C-%3DC-C--
10:43:03 <elliott> NSQX: the message came through
10:43:12 <elliott> Patashu: right, but wielding isn't wearing, so I wasn't sure
10:43:16 <Patashu> you should mentally replace 'curse' and 'cursed' with 'glue' and 'glued'
10:43:20 <Patashu> and that's what cursing is in crawl
10:43:54 <elliott> i wonder why i automatically picked up a cheese
10:44:01 <Patashu> since it's not blacked out
10:44:09 <elliott> i guess cheese is kind of meaty
10:45:14 <Patashu> (you don't want rings of ice/fire since they make you vulnerable to the opposite element)
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10:45:21 <Patashu> (they also boost spells of that element, but you're a caveman)
10:46:23 <elliott> nobody can ever tell me crawl isn't cruel and arbitrary
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10:46:57 <elliott> i will admit, this is a very funny game
10:47:08 <Patashu> it's like all the bad guys were having a meeting
10:48:07 <elliott> it'd probably have killed me while I was running away
10:48:26 <Patashu> when I say 'pillar dancing' do you know what that means
10:48:49 <elliott> not really, though i recall the term existing
10:49:00 <Patashu> pillar dancing is where you exploit the property of being as fast or faster than your opponent
10:49:12 <Patashu> and running around the circuit with them chasing you
10:49:26 <elliott> yeah that falls well under "boring rubbish i can't be bothered with"
10:49:52 <Patashu> why do you even want advice then
10:49:58 <Patashu> if you're just playing it to see how horribly you die
10:50:06 <NSQX> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?=PHPE9568F36-D428-11d2-A769-00AA001ACF42 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?=PHPE9568F34-D428-11d2-A769-00AA001ACF42 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?=PHPE9568F35-D428-11d2-A769-00AA001ACF42 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?=PHPB8B5F2A0-3C92-11d3-A3A9-4C7B08C10000
10:50:09 <elliott> i just don't want to get into situations where i have to do that in the first place
10:50:20 <Patashu> that's kind of hard, though
10:50:26 <Patashu> since when you start you're very vulnerable and have no resources
10:50:32 <elliott> so is winning in the first place :p
10:50:38 <elliott> and yeah yeah i know i'd just rather take some risks earlier on
10:50:42 <Patashu> I've only played crawl ~30 times
10:50:47 <Patashu> winning crawl is pretty easy
10:50:52 <elliott> it means i'll have to restart more often, but it also means that i won't be bored to death
10:51:10 <hagb4rd> hey, what game are you talking about`? another nethack-like?
10:51:35 <Patashu> telnet crawl.develz.org port 345
10:53:04 <Patashu> are you ever going to pick up darts and throw them at things, btw
10:53:11 <Patashu> darts blow but it's slightly better than waiting around
10:53:17 <elliott> i haven't seen many darts around this time
10:53:26 <Patashu> autoexplore doesn't pick them up tho
10:53:55 <NSQX> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?=PHPE9568F35-D428-11d2-A769-00AA001ACF42
10:54:35 <elliott> nethack doesn't have that kind of nonsense
10:54:41 <Patashu> this is why crawl is the superior game
10:55:14 <Patashu> might does not stack with berk
10:55:29 <Patashu> as part of its package deal
10:55:37 <elliott> you can always have more might
10:55:46 <Patashu> if you want more might S instead of D
10:56:23 * NSQX attempts to freeze the conversations about anything else than esoteric programming languages on #esoteric
10:56:35 <elliott> they're the backbone of this channel
10:57:11 <NSQX> <CTCP>SHOOT Patashu<CTCP>
10:58:27 <Patashu> to figure out what's in a big pile
10:58:38 * Sgeo prefers ,, for some reason
10:58:46 <Sgeo> I think because NetHak
10:58:59 <Sgeo> Also, because Wulfram II
10:59:12 <Sgeo> Wait, I forget what , did in Wulfram II
10:59:21 <Sgeo> One of , and . was drop and the other was install
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10:59:24 <Sgeo> Forget which was which
11:00:13 <Patashu> you can't eat all that shit
11:00:37 <Sgeo> elliott, just press enter when the map comes up
11:02:09 <Patashu> I wouldn't fight him right now
11:02:13 <elliott> that's the colour of nearly dead things tho just logicing for you
11:02:21 <Patashu> can you get to a staircase?
11:02:29 <elliott> or that upstairs, but it's one way
11:02:53 <Patashu> now he's going to follow you up
11:03:36 <Patashu> also, that wasn't one way at all
11:03:48 <Patashu> how much does pain do again
11:03:55 <elliott> i thought green was one way but APPARENTLY NOT
11:03:59 <Patashu> pain won't do anything for you
11:04:19 <Patashu> (basically, pain does more damage the higher your necromancy skill is)
11:04:29 <elliott> it seemed a bit weak there
11:04:32 <Patashu> (it's a brand designed for a certain build, which is weird but ok)
11:04:34 <elliott> but i guess i am lower in the dungeon
11:04:46 <Patashu> use it until it reveals what its +s are
11:04:48 <Patashu> then try the protection flail
11:05:02 <Patashu> sometimes id scrolls let you id more
11:05:19 <Patashu> is the best scroll in the game
11:05:53 <Patashu> swap to the flail of protection
11:05:58 <Patashu> ditch the flail of pain you'll never use it
11:06:07 <elliott> is that why edmund was such a wuss
11:07:36 <Patashu> when you get a new thing you can train the skill associated with it
11:07:40 <Patashu> (and it turns it on automatically)
11:08:01 <Patashu> you should have darted it imo
11:08:37 <Patashu> idk why you aren't autopicking them up
11:08:49 <Sgeo> Patashu, the ones he didn't autopickup weren''t his I think
11:09:08 <Patashu> woah, I clicked something and I'm seeing a replay of elliot's entire game
11:09:19 <Patashu> since it's a 'bolt' and not a 'puff'
11:09:28 <Patashu> so you can use it to rape multiple enemies at once
11:09:41 <Patashu> if you see something and you're like OMG
11:09:43 <Patashu> check your inventory first
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11:10:54 <Patashu> I'll just repeat what I said
11:11:00 <Patashu> since it's a 'bolt' and not a 'puff' it pierces multiple enemies
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11:13:04 <Patashu> what about your other scrolls
11:13:25 <Sgeo> elliott, feel any desire to switch gods?
11:13:45 <Patashu> he is frighteningly vengeful
11:13:46 <Sgeo> Patashu, I was joking since elliott found an altar
11:14:11 <Sgeo> Patashu, didn't know Trog was vengeful though
11:14:20 <Patashu> and then beat the centaur's face in
11:14:46 <Sgeo> slurping noise?
11:15:25 <Sgeo> Patashu, are spellbooks useful with Trog, in the "nice way to place a trap for things that I can trigger" way?
11:15:30 <Sgeo> Or is that more annoying than anything
11:15:32 <Patashu> sgeo: they're not useful ENOUGH
11:15:37 <Patashu> but it makes a conjure flame where you put it
11:15:41 <Patashu> (also, you can throw a book then ignite it)
11:15:45 <elliott> is my wand really gonna be useful
11:16:08 <Patashu> again, aim at that furthest orc
11:18:01 <Sgeo> Why does cursing matter if it's a good weapon anyway?
11:18:09 <Patashu> sgeo: he can't butcher with a cursed mace in his hands
11:18:36 <Patashu> Gretell> elliott (L8 KoBe) killed Sigmund. (D:5)
11:18:53 <Patashu> trogs hand will help you resist it but
11:19:04 <elliott> beautiful sentence structure there
11:19:11 <Patashu> trog's hand gives you 'MR'
11:19:14 <Patashu> MR does NOT help you resist damage
11:19:19 <Patashu> what it does help you do is shrug off status effects
11:19:24 <Patashu> like paralysis and confusion
11:20:02 <elliott> gnoll fuckin shaman??? bullshit
11:20:59 <elliott> i'll just berk him in one go
11:21:55 <elliott> btw how do i see how many turns in i am
11:22:21 <Sgeo> Patashu, the ***... is piety?
11:24:00 <Patashu> to do that you have to edit your rc
11:24:20 <elliott> like a stats screen or w/e
11:24:25 <Patashu> this is what you want to turn on
11:24:46 <elliott> ok is this sabre worth anything
11:25:51 <Patashu> maybe find something with less MR
11:26:13 <Patashu> teleportation is one of the best wands
11:26:17 <Patashu> you can zap yourself with it
11:26:33 <Patashu> the centaur can't hit you as long as the imp is there
11:27:39 <Patashu> wait one turn then go one ne
11:27:56 <Sgeo> You're not going to get any treasures from it
11:28:24 <elliott> how long do i get to keep it
11:28:25 <Patashu> you know what enslavement is good on, right?
11:28:52 <elliott> not long at all, as it turns out
11:29:05 <Patashu> you don't have much shit to id
11:29:08 <Patashu> id your wand of teleportatoin
11:29:18 <Patashu> because teleportation is a useful escape mechanism
11:29:29 <Patashu> or something that might be recharging
11:29:44 <Patashu> on the wand of teleportation
11:30:15 <Patashu> try on the crude ring mail
11:30:16 <Sgeo> Scrolls of random uselessness are the best
11:31:10 <Sgeo> Randomly generated artifact
11:31:17 <elliott> can i drop my naimal skin now
11:31:28 <Sgeo> Basically: Random name and stats
11:31:42 <Patashu> the game just rolls some dice and says 'ok have this'
11:32:33 <Sgeo> Does elliott know what blinking does?
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11:35:00 <Sgeo> There's a which stat thing in LearnDB which just says Int
11:35:09 <Sgeo> But I'd think that doesn't apply to non-spellcasters
11:35:57 <Sgeo> Read the scroll of random uselessness!
11:36:57 <Patashu> you're not going to go into the sewers?
11:37:27 <elliott> how dangerous are the sewers
11:37:35 <Sgeo> Oh, that's not a shop?
11:37:45 <Patashu> ok the thing to know about the sewers is
11:37:47 <Patashu> if you're standing in water
11:38:04 <Sgeo> Eating food in the sewers. Not at all gross.
11:38:23 <Patashu> telnet crawl.develz.org port 345
11:38:52 <elliott> its really hard to distinguish the two types of water here
11:40:07 <Patashu> how did someone die in the sewers
11:40:31 <Patashu> you have wands for a reason
11:40:41 <Sgeo> Patashu, what's how he died?
11:40:53 <Patashu> so he probably died xommily
11:40:57 <Patashu> since the sewers are yawnsville
11:41:06 <nortti> "Articles lacking sources from December 2009"
11:41:16 <nortti> wikipedia categories...
11:42:13 <elliott> is it supposed to be really hard to see
11:42:15 <elliott> the difference between the two here
11:42:21 <elliott> can barely distinguish them
11:43:10 <Patashu> made coming to the sewers worth it
11:43:55 <Patashu> btw once you have ****** piety
11:43:57 <Patashu> trog starts giving you shit
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11:44:23 <elliott> an orc, an orc priest, an orc wizard and a centaur work into a bar
11:44:47 <elliott> i think i could have taken those on but ok
11:45:00 <elliott> sure unless you want excitement
11:45:11 <Patashu> also get out of that centaur's los
11:45:19 <Patashu> no you just want to melee it
11:45:24 <Patashu> it's its ranged attack you're worried about
11:48:00 <Patashu> I see lots of corpses to pray with
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11:48:22 <Patashu> unless you LOVE orc priests
11:48:28 <elliott> they're kinda fun actually
11:48:32 <Patashu> there are shops in the orcish mines
11:48:42 <elliott> ps - total ripoff of nethack gnomish mines
11:49:02 <Patashu> orc:4 has a chance of things like stone giants, ettins and orc warlords
11:49:08 <Patashu> it's secrety actually really dangerous!
11:49:12 <Patashu> it's a newbie trap basically
11:52:43 <Patashu> don't get into that situation in the first place
11:53:17 <Patashu> unless you're SUPER desperate
11:53:20 <Patashu> it's for curing status effects
11:53:30 <Patashu> past the early game it won't heal more than even a single round of melee
11:54:45 <Patashu> crazy yiuf has a guaranteed quarterstaff of chaos
11:54:51 <Patashu> random chance of chain paralysis until you die
11:55:13 <elliott> should i zap test wands on U
11:55:22 <Patashu> and berserk your pansy ass
11:56:36 <Patashu> <Henzell> chaos brand[1/9]: Imitates other brands, or can heal, polymorph, berserk, haste, invisify, petrify, paralyse, torment, cause miscasts and probably do a lot more to enemies. Added in 0.5, only gifted by Xom, Xom's vault guards, found on Pan lords, or on the uniques Crazy Yiuf (always) or Psyche (sometimes).
11:56:39 <Patashu> that's why it's not worth using either
11:56:47 <Patashu> you can't use it to fight hard enemies because you'll randomly berserk them
11:56:53 <Patashu> which makes them nigh unstoppable juggernauts
11:56:58 <Patashu> basically picture when you berserk
11:57:00 <Patashu> -except it doesn't run out-
11:57:41 <Patashu> do you know the trick for goliath beetles
11:58:11 <Patashu> if it hits you it might kill you at your hp
11:58:41 <elliott> is it still going to follow me in a straight line
11:59:12 <Patashu> you have a nice big pillar
11:59:28 <Patashu> it won't fight back unless it gets cornered
12:02:09 <lambdabot> Local time for Sgeo is Sun Apr 22 08:02:09
12:02:11 <elliott> Patashu: sick of this shield and ring mail thing
12:04:29 <Patashu> that wasn't the best place to hide waiting for him but ok
12:05:03 <Patashu> that doesn't have a horse's body
12:05:07 <Patashu> in terms of dealing with him
12:05:46 <Patashu> at a certain point in the game
12:05:49 <Patashu> orcs lose the ability to hit you
12:06:06 <Patashu> (it's also 100% predicted by your AC, EV and SH scores!)
12:06:09 <Patashu> (and how fast you're hitting)
12:06:16 <Patashu> (e.g. if you're at min delay they're only hitting about half as often)
12:06:23 <Patashu> (so it looks like your defenses are waay better but really it's you that's in slow motion
12:06:44 <Patashu> swap to your other mace again
12:07:13 <Patashu> want to know what the pro way of dealing with jellies is
12:07:26 <elliott> wacking with something you don't care about is better
12:08:32 <elliott> ok, lemme clear this level first
12:08:39 <Patashu> the things to watch out for in the lair are
12:09:14 <Patashu> but the lair is easier than the main dungeon because
12:09:17 <Patashu> no spellcasters hurling shit at you
12:10:45 <Patashu> also there are a lot of them
12:10:50 <elliott> i would be green if i was a green rat too
12:11:46 <Patashu> while you're sick you can't regen
12:12:28 <Patashu> it's ALLIGATORS that are tough
12:12:32 <Patashu> (and you don't meet those until the swamp)
12:13:53 <Patashu> btw a pro as hell zerk strategy is
12:13:57 <Patashu> back up about a room's length
12:14:01 <Patashu> that way in the post zerk rest period
12:14:04 <Patashu> you're less likely to be ambushed
12:14:08 <Patashu> (like what happened just then)
12:14:42 <elliott> a water moccasin AND a plant???
12:18:42 <Patashu> if you guzzle cure wounds like that
12:18:48 <Patashu> you won't have any left for when you REALLY need it
12:18:55 <elliott> i was pretty close to death there
12:19:08 <Patashu> I would have brothers in armsed
12:19:13 <elliott> oh, I forgot about that :x
12:19:19 <Patashu> you can swap places with your pet
12:19:33 <Patashu> especially when you get a good roll and he sends a berzerk giant
12:20:03 <elliott> are you sure i can't just berk this
12:21:43 <Patashu> moce ise pf the chple [pomt
12:21:48 <Patashu> nice use of the cvhoke point
12:22:16 <elliott> guess what i'm gonna quaff
12:22:58 <elliott> actually going to brothers in arms
12:24:26 <Patashu> on any other character that would be a good amulet
12:24:30 <Patashu> but you p. much have gourmand by being a kobold
12:24:51 <elliott> "The giant frog hits the plant."
12:25:17 <Patashu> is that the yak that fled earlier?
12:26:03 <Patashu> and circle it indefinitely
12:26:29 <Patashu> why do you go in a straight line like that
12:27:06 <Patashu> any of those pillars work fine
12:27:12 <elliott> oh so there are pillars here
12:27:19 <Patashu> that you can circle around
12:27:28 <Patashu> back yourself right into a wall
12:27:31 <Patashu> where what you should do is
12:28:49 <Patashu> that's better than scale but worse than splint
12:29:20 <Patashu> your ring mail artifact isn't THAT good
12:29:25 <Patashu> I'd upgrade to chain or better when you feel like it
12:29:29 <Patashu> also, figure out what that ring is
12:29:32 <elliott> i'm fine with it for now but OK
12:30:10 <Patashu> you can leave that on then
12:30:34 <elliott> likew ho would write that scroll
12:30:47 <Patashu> giant slugs are as slow as goliath bettles
12:31:49 <Patashu> nice use of the choke point
12:31:58 <Patashu> when you reach ****** piety under trog he will do one of two thingd
12:32:05 <Patashu> 1) gift you a godlike weapon you can use until the end of the gae
12:32:10 <Patashu> 2) give you some piece of crap you don't care about
12:32:34 <Patashu> a deudly centipede was guarding it
12:32:42 <Patashu> you need to pick it up too
12:33:19 <Patashu> do I need to tell you what resist corrosion does?
12:34:16 <Patashu> ok, it's probably not going to die
12:34:37 <Patashu> (and kick yourself for running out)
12:35:49 <Patashu> you just dropped a match on it
12:36:58 <elliott> how can frogs be so deadly
12:37:53 <elliott> the worst part of roguelikes is that lull after you die when you really don't want to go back to early-game stuff
12:38:06 <Patashu> you'll probably be a looot better at the early game now
12:39:14 <elliott> maybe i'll play again while i still remember how
12:40:23 <Patashu> everything except m&f turned off?
12:41:00 <Patashu> the way you run from enemies
12:41:33 <Patashu> the first thing you did wrong is run into a part of the map you hadn't explored yet
12:41:40 <Patashu> (hint: these are more likely to contain enemies that will stop you from running away
12:41:46 <Patashu> the second thing you did is, when you reached that intersection
12:41:51 <Patashu> you went into the middle of it instead of off at an angle
12:42:01 <Patashu> you make it impossible to change direction without the enemy getting a hit off of you
12:42:11 <Patashu> in general, you don't use diagonal movement over orthogonal movement as often as you could
12:42:20 <elliott> i forgot dungeon 1 could have actually scary stuff
12:42:45 <elliott> i gave up on that game as soon as i entered low hitpoints
12:43:00 <Patashu> you can pillar dance away from a hobgoblin indefinitely
12:43:03 <Patashu> (if you don't do... that instead)
12:43:05 <Patashu> (which is not pillar dancing)
12:44:15 <Patashu> you waste a turn whenever you don't cut a corner
12:44:32 <elliott> it's something i know i'm terrible at, diagonal movement
12:46:01 <Patashu> are you familiar with the concept of luring?
12:46:28 <elliott> uhh is it something other than the obvious
12:46:42 <Patashu> if you see a tough monster that makes you really worried, you might opt to back off a long distance with it following you
12:46:49 <Patashu> so you know with almost certainty you'll only have to fight it
12:46:55 <Patashu> instead of charging at it and discovering it has lots of friends waiting with it
12:47:04 <Patashu> obviously it's a pick and choose kind of strategy
12:47:08 <elliott> i just sometimes don't follow them because they'd be tedious
12:47:23 <Patashu> you have a very low tolerance for tedium, it seems
12:48:57 <Patashu> you could just walk around it
12:50:52 <elliott> i mean let's put it this way
12:50:57 <elliott> i'm already better at crawl than i am at nethack
12:51:09 <elliott> that says more about my nethack performance than my crawl performance
12:51:17 <Patashu> except I was actually bad at nethack
12:51:21 <Patashu> started the invocation but forgot the candles
12:51:31 <Patashu> anyway it was a fluke and I should never have gotten that far
12:52:49 <elliott> been like that the whole time
12:53:03 <elliott> wouldn't forget something that important!
12:54:51 <elliott> is a bunch of hobgoblins called a foolish consistency
12:55:36 <Patashu> what do those ones even mean
12:55:45 <Patashu> you won the mutation lottery
12:56:00 <Patashu> the -1 str doesn't even matter
12:56:08 <Patashu> you can now eat green corpses
12:56:53 <Patashu> the dart trap won't kill you btw
12:57:05 <Patashu> going into the elbows of corners
12:57:22 <Patashu> how much damage can a worm do tops
12:58:03 <Patashu> worms are goliath beetle speed
12:58:09 <Patashu> though with your weapon's delay
12:58:10 <elliott> i hate everything at that speed
12:58:13 <Patashu> you might not be able to hack and back them properly yet
12:58:35 <Patashu> so it's a good thing you don't worship zin
12:59:20 <hagb4rd> can i watch using one of the clients? can't get it done with telnet (there are 2 options: (R)egister and (Q)uit ..) i've registered but after that nothing happened
12:59:33 <elliott> burst into flames of its own accord
12:59:36 <Patashu> it should give you the option to (W)atch
12:59:52 <elliott> hagb4rd: crawl.develz.org 345?
12:59:54 <elliott> sure you got that right? :P
12:59:57 <elliott> then press W as soon as you connect
13:00:47 <hagb4rd> okay..somehow the line was not displayed correctly..but 'w' works fine
13:00:56 <elliott> hagb4rd: make sure your terminal is 80x24
13:01:04 <Patashu> you're poison resistant, right?
13:01:11 <Patashu> so meph won't confuse you (if he knows it)
13:01:11 <Patashu> just run up and murder his face
13:01:30 <Patashu> he summons a lot of imps at once
13:01:38 <Patashu> (the player spell only summons one imp)
13:02:26 <Patashu> you are a Good Player if you know when to use haste
13:02:30 <Patashu> and a bad player if you never use it
13:02:38 <elliott> what if i use haste constantly
13:02:43 <Patashu> then you'll run out of haste
13:02:58 <Patashu> I think I've said this before but
13:03:01 <Patashu> haste is really, really, really good
13:03:06 <Patashu> but it won't save you if you're a turn away from death
13:03:15 <Patashu> it's like berzerk ,you have to identify it's about to be needed and use it pre-emptively for maximum benefit
13:03:38 <Patashu> haste makes you 1.5x as fast in both moving and attacking
13:03:58 <Patashu> there might be a wizard or priest
13:04:39 <Patashu> also, orc parties are a good target for luring
13:04:43 <Patashu> since they often have priests or wizards
13:04:46 <Patashu> and can have many if you're unlucky
13:05:41 <Patashu> but backing up would have been safer (scorpions are same speed)
13:06:46 <Patashu> what else are you going to do
13:07:07 <elliott> i survived a little longer than i would have otherwise
13:08:36 <Patashu> I just thought of something
13:08:39 <Patashu> the next time you find a book
13:08:50 <Patashu> when something annoying is next to you
13:09:52 <Patashu> also, keep in mind throwing and afing will take two turns
13:09:59 <Patashu> if you don't think you can handle two turns of melee, well, you should have done it earlier!
13:10:17 <Patashu> but I imagine it would work well on like an orc wizard
13:11:38 <Patashu> the bat's mortal enemy is the tab
13:11:43 <Patashu> have I just blown your mind or what
13:12:59 <Patashu> ##crawl found some splats of this guy who
13:13:06 <Patashu> didn't know how to go diagonally
13:13:18 <Patashu> taking orthogonal steps up to a lich
13:14:11 <Patashu> at least you landed next to the upstairs
13:14:33 <Patashu> have an orc as a souvenier
13:14:36 <Patashu> go to the choke point already
13:15:00 <Patashu> you can't hack and back it yet
13:15:03 <Patashu> because your weapon delay isn't low enough
13:15:15 <Patashu> if you had show_game_turns on you'd see it takes you 1.2 or so turns to swing a weapon
13:16:11 <Patashu> why are you throwing darts from melee range
13:16:17 <Patashu> it will kill you in one hit
13:16:22 <Patashu> find a place you can pillar dance
13:16:29 <Patashu> diagonal movement may be necessary
13:16:55 <Patashu> I meant that little triangle thing
13:17:58 <Patashu> the first ogre of any game
13:18:01 <Patashu> is NOT there to fuck around
13:18:08 <Patashu> he's there to beat your pansy skill into a pulp
13:18:14 <Patashu> since you suck with your weapon and have no defenses to speak of
13:19:40 <Patashu> it's good to know for sure
13:20:17 <Patashu> youy should think 'alert alert'
13:20:21 <Patashu> geckos are faster than normal speed
13:20:37 <Patashu> (crawl's early game monsters are unintuitive like that)
13:21:23 <Patashu> hmm, I think I know what the colour coding for stairs is now
13:21:31 <Patashu> green = there's no monsters on the other side
13:21:35 <Patashu> red = there are monsters on the other side
13:21:56 <elliott> you can tell whether there's monsters?!
13:22:07 <Patashu> and turn green/red after you've gone through them
13:22:22 <Patashu> if you could see onto the other side of stairs without taking them I think crawl would be too easy
13:23:38 <Patashu> your m&f isn't going up very fast
13:25:26 <Patashu> since kobolds have apt 3 in short blades
13:25:32 <Patashu> that it might be better to go short blades path
13:25:38 <Patashu> (apt 3 means you raise the skill almost twice as fast
13:25:44 <Patashu> (apt 4 means you do raise the skill twice as fast)
13:25:49 <Patashu> (similarly, apt -4 is twice as slow)
13:26:28 <Patashu> nice position you left yourself in
13:26:31 <elliott> what is potion of porridge btw
13:26:39 <Patashu> what can you even do from this point
13:26:46 <Patashu> probably start by trog handing
13:27:43 <Patashu> anyway, next game you should try this
13:27:46 <Patashu> first short sword you find?
13:27:53 <Patashu> and train short blades exclusively
13:27:59 <Patashu> it might work better since you'll train it a lot faster
13:28:03 <Patashu> and quick blades own if you can get your hands on one
13:28:24 <elliott> that thing's like elbereth
13:30:53 <Patashu> btw, there's an undisclosed secret mechanic in crawl, whereby if you retreat partially behind a wall to get a ranged weapon user out of los, they'll move to the tile furthest from you that enters your los
13:30:55 <Patashu> I swear they always do that
13:31:17 <Patashu> ideally you'll move to a spot where you can close in 0 or 1 turns after they appear
13:31:20 <Patashu> not always possible however
13:32:16 <Patashu> do you have any unused scrolls?
13:33:24 <nortti> "can't open 'ed.c': File exists"
13:33:37 <Patashu> you know about doors, right?
13:33:46 <Patashu> yeah what the fuck are doors
13:34:03 <Patashu> and see a centaur pack on the other side
13:34:08 <Patashu> the best response is usually to shut the door
13:35:53 <Patashu> you keep moving intothe elbow of corridors
13:35:55 <Patashu> instead of cutting across them
13:36:00 <Patashu> stop that, even in situations where it doesn't matter
13:36:12 <Patashu> look at all those id scrolls
13:36:40 <Patashu> btw, don't forget that if you see an orc wizard blink it doesn't know invis
13:37:06 <elliott> is there any reason not to drink the potion of smart
13:37:42 <Patashu> orc wizards have three sets of spells: haste and blink, confuse and invis, haste and invis
13:37:46 <Patashu> and they always have something to damage, of course
13:38:09 <Patashu> once you're in melee with it
13:39:59 <Patashu> I'm wondering if that whip of electrocution
13:40:23 <Patashu> it fits into your maceandflailskind strife specibus, yes
13:40:28 <Patashu> ok yeah, as a weapon whips suck
13:40:32 <Patashu> but as a brand electrocution owns
13:41:37 <Patashu> you shouldn't be meandering off into the unknown
13:41:44 <Patashu> you should look for a place you can pillar dance around
13:42:00 <Patashu> you had a wand of draining?
13:48:35 <Patashu> are you going to play again?
13:48:46 <elliott> was taking a minute's break
13:48:49 <elliott> you can go to bed if you want though :P
13:50:00 <Patashu> try swapping to a short blade as soon as you see one
13:50:11 <Patashu> (daggers suck except for stabbing)
13:52:22 <Patashu> stabbing only works if you're stealthy
13:52:28 <Patashu> and if you were stealthy you'd be using a dagger
13:52:33 <Patashu> for the stabbing damage multipler
13:52:41 <Patashu> (if you ever want to try a stabber, roll a spriggan enchanter)
13:53:02 <Patashu> then you follow the hyperbolic guide
13:53:04 <Patashu> ??hyperbolic ??hyperbolic[2] ??hyperbolic[3]
13:53:55 <Patashu> you stab most things to death while they're asleep
13:54:05 <Patashu> and if they don't die you can put them to sleep again with eh or run cuz you're fast
13:54:14 <Patashu> (and you'll run a lot since you'll be very flimsy)
13:54:25 <Patashu> it's a looot diifferent from playing a kobe in any case
13:55:12 <Patashu> and stand next to the door
13:55:15 <Patashu> you don't even have it yet
13:55:20 <Patashu> stand next to the door anyway
13:55:37 <Patashu> sure, if you think you can
13:55:48 <elliott> well i can't beat him can i
13:55:57 <Patashu> kind of risky without hand I guess
13:56:00 <Patashu> where's the nearest staircase?
13:57:36 <Patashu> you can use potions while confused
13:57:47 <Patashu> just not...wands, invocations, scrolls or rods
13:58:32 <Patashu> also, if you're going to swap to sblades
13:58:39 <Patashu> you can leave your skills au natural until you actually find the short blade
13:58:58 <Patashu> armour or fighting or something
13:59:54 <Patashu> how did you -not- have hand
13:59:57 <Patashu> the last time you got to sigmund
14:00:33 <Patashu> if you find a scroll of acquirement, wish for weapon
14:00:37 <Patashu> you'll be likely to get a quick blade
14:01:59 <lambdabot> Local time for Patashu is Mon Apr 23 00:01:57 2012
14:03:05 <Patashu> you don't have to hand -every- time you're poisoned
14:03:08 <Patashu> only if you get poisoned a lot
14:04:45 <Patashu> hand as soon as you see a priest or wizard
14:05:08 <Patashu> if you can move out of los in one turn
14:05:51 <Patashu> (chain and splint and plate are better)
14:06:46 <Patashu> so enchant armour or recharging
14:07:02 <Patashu> oh, then it was recharging
14:08:38 <Patashu> blinking is the best scroll
14:08:52 <Patashu> it seems if you do it immediately
14:08:55 <Patashu> most of the orcs don't even come looking for you
14:09:11 <Patashu> since you've lost hp already
14:09:31 <Patashu> lol I was about to suggets you pick up the morningstar
14:09:36 <Patashu> and you have a nice sblade too
14:09:41 <Patashu> (elec is a great brand early on)
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14:10:55 <Patashu> did you see that worker ant go into the elbow
14:11:01 <Patashu> clearly needs to take more advice from me
14:11:11 <Patashu> your sblades skill is going up
14:12:23 <Patashu> aaaaaa this wizard is eating me
14:13:38 <elliott> oh he's the guy who's actually a weakling
14:17:44 <Patashu> this will be your main weapon until you get a quick blade
14:18:06 <Patashu> new contender for worst berk
14:19:01 <Patashu> Prince Ribbit (F) | Speed: 14 (swim: 60%) | HD: 6 | Health: 40 | AC/EV: 0/16 | Damage: 20 | Flags: amphibious, spellcaster, cold-blooded | Res: magic(40), drown | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 302 | Sp: blink; teleport self.
14:19:04 <Patashu> basically he's a blink frog by himself
14:19:07 <Patashu> and he appears a lot earlier
14:19:35 <elliott> confusion him then melee? will that stop him blinking
14:21:11 <Patashu> you don't want the imp blocking you off
14:22:35 <Patashu> now imagine a pack of prince ribbits
14:22:38 <Patashu> and you know why you died to blink frogs
14:24:06 <Patashu> the First Ogre Of The Game (tm) came a bit late to pull one over on you
14:24:16 <elliott> i think he might have been the second
14:24:27 <Patashu> the second ogre is never quite like the first
14:24:52 <Patashu> if you invis after monsters have seen you
14:24:56 <Patashu> they still know roughly where you are
14:25:03 <Patashu> it's not a guaranteed escape mechanism
14:25:07 <Patashu> but it's probably heal wounds
14:25:36 <nortti> I got unix v6 ed to work on my system :D
14:25:48 <Patashu> you may as well flick shields on too
14:26:11 <Patashu> (you should have gone up the stairs)
14:27:42 <Patashu> use a scroll of remove curse
14:28:06 <Patashu> you might want to find out what kind of ring that is
14:28:24 <Patashu> he was using a spear of venom
14:30:07 <Patashu> yeah, your artifact gloves
14:30:13 <Patashu> if your int gets drained to 0 or lower, you should take the gloves off
14:30:24 <Patashu> (you get a grace period and then you die of having no int)
14:30:28 <Patashu> (like if you were starving)
14:31:21 <Patashu> tanking those hits like a pro
14:31:53 <Patashu> it will run out waaaay before they all die
14:31:54 <elliott> how did you find out my secret plan
14:32:04 <Patashu> not zerking is a good plan for kobold vault
14:34:43 <Patashu> take the dagger of distortion
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14:35:09 <Patashu> this is a good opportunity to practice piller dancing
14:35:27 <Ngevd> In response to the seeming renewed developement of UniCode, I have renewed developement of Uniquode
14:36:16 <Patashu> the artifact isn't very good
14:36:19 <Patashu> since +2 dex is like nothing
14:36:41 <Patashu> here's how you deal with the eel
14:37:30 <Patashu> it knows what to do already
14:37:58 <Patashu> you got back all the piety you spent on that bia
14:40:06 <elliott> think i can turn more of these on yet?
14:40:54 <Patashu> when you get some heavy armour like plate pump armour too
14:45:54 <Patashu> steam dragon (D) | Speed: 10 | HD: 4 | Health: 20-39 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Damage: 12, 6 | Flags: fly, !sil | Res: magic(16) | XP: 183 | Sp: steam ball (3d10).
14:46:59 <Patashu> is that long or short blade?
14:47:41 <Patashu> anti-magic is a brand that does no damage, but makes spellcasters less likely to cast spells
14:48:01 <elliott> i don't like that brand then
14:48:02 <Patashu> so you want to use the electro sword most of the time
14:48:11 <Patashu> it's actually pretty useful
14:48:20 <Patashu> since you start meeting spellcasters that do omfg amounts of damage with their blasts
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14:52:52 <Ngevd> I barely got the hang of Pokmon Mystery Dungeon, I don't think I'm up for Crawl
14:52:59 <Patashu> crawl is the easiest roguelike
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14:53:43 <Patashu> I think this is the entrance to the orcish mines
14:56:21 <Patashu> you can do orc 1:3 if you like
14:56:43 <Patashu> also, should probably butcher stuff
14:58:43 <Patashu> lair appears between D:8 and D:13
14:58:52 <elliott> I wanna go for orcish mines
14:59:24 <Patashu> also, stairdancing is > go down stairs < go up stairs [Tab] kill whoever followed you
14:59:34 <Patashu> you'll end up doing it a lot
14:59:37 <Ngevd> I managed to get 100% completion on Pokmon Ranger, but that isn't a Roguelike in any way, shape, or form.
15:00:36 <Patashu> corpse corpse corpse corpse
15:00:46 <Patashu> and yeah, I was right about the stair colour coding
15:04:07 <Patashu> move towards the high priest
15:04:28 <Patashu> that's a pretty early orc high priest
15:04:50 <Patashu> I thought trog summons were shielded from abjuration
15:04:58 <Patashu> maybe it's a piety in max_piety check
15:05:49 <Patashu> there's always three < one escape hatch < three > one escape hatch >
15:05:56 <Patashu> just that in orcish mines they're in separated 'bubbles'
15:07:56 <Patashu> if you do, ask me about anything new you see
15:09:25 <elliott> fucking anti magic bullshit
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15:10:12 <Patashu> longer answer: your max hp is still really low
15:10:15 <Patashu> so you might randomly die in elf
15:11:59 <Patashu> blinking, tele, curing, heal wounds
15:12:32 <Patashu> blink onto that other < down there
15:12:36 <Patashu> that's the one you came in by
15:12:55 <Patashu> lucky you didn't get smited more
15:13:02 <Patashu> now you know the importance of staircase colours :)
15:13:58 <elliott> how many corpses until trog likes me fully
15:14:09 <Patashu> are you hoping for a quick blade gift?
15:16:16 <Patashu> btw, a combo you should try some time is hill orc priest
15:16:20 <Patashu> hill orc priests are special, they worship beogh
15:16:23 <Patashu> the god of converting orcs to be allies
15:16:27 <Patashu> and over time he levels them up to be better orcs
15:18:08 <Patashu> you can only blink within LOS
15:18:11 <Patashu> also, waste of a blinking scroll
15:19:41 <Ngevd> Wow, I own at least 5 books
15:19:45 <Patashu> yeah, I think that's right
15:20:46 <Patashu> the orcish mines, a perfect place to go and hang out if you like
15:20:51 <Patashu> -ambushes on every single staircase per level
15:21:18 <Patashu> can you go one tile east for me
15:21:28 <Patashu> I got the colour scheme thing wrong, then
15:21:31 <Patashu> maybe green is up, red is down
15:21:45 <Patashu> ok, I guess you just have to REMEMBER which staircases are cleared already
15:21:49 <Patashu> because that's totally unreasonable
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15:22:24 <Patashu> you're not done until you find the four shops
15:22:28 <Patashu> or flee because the area is too hard
15:24:12 <Patashu> (they will do that randomly)
15:24:17 <Patashu> (they don't have a smite/turn quota, it's random per turn)
15:25:49 <Patashu> why doesn't that work anymore
15:26:01 <Patashu> now stay summoned this time
15:26:42 <Patashu> lucky you have your troll to tank everything for you!
15:27:22 <elliott> what is it with these orcs
15:27:27 <Patashu> you are in the ORCish mines
15:29:13 <Patashu> I wonder if they see invisibility
15:29:17 <Patashu> tele takes too long to kick in
15:29:30 <elliott> don't have many other options
15:29:53 <Patashu> tele takes approximately 3 turns
15:30:16 <elliott> that was counterproductive
15:30:38 <Patashu> I think that actually works
15:31:22 <Patashu> (that probably wasn't the best place to run. I presumed it was cleared out by then)
15:31:43 <Patashu> anyway turns out invis does stop smiting
15:32:51 <Patashu> see what else you can lure
15:33:38 <Patashu> and you don't know what it is
15:33:51 <Patashu> you might want one of those
15:33:55 <Patashu> first can you bia that knight for me?
15:34:33 <Patashu> you can't order it to attack it since you can't see it
15:36:01 <elliott> i just murdered the entire population
15:36:04 <elliott> and they're still selling me shit
15:37:14 <Patashu> get digging and disintegration
15:37:21 <Patashu> disintegration can do two things
15:37:27 <Patashu> 1) it destroys one section of wall if it's diggable
15:37:30 <Patashu> 2) it destroys statues instantly
15:37:47 <Patashu> (unless the statue is roxanne)
15:38:12 <Patashu> roxanne is a unique statue
15:38:19 <Patashu> anyway, you may as well leave orc now
15:38:44 <Patashu> just don't take that staircase that goes to harold
15:39:27 <elliott> down the escape hatch here?
15:39:34 <Patashu> there's normal stairs right there
15:39:54 <ion> elliott: The piety will come back after a while.
15:40:47 <elliott> do i want glowing orcish splint male
15:41:33 <Patashu> is this your first encounter with BEES
15:41:38 <ion> glowing orcish splint females are hot
15:41:44 <Patashu> notice how when you're attacking things
15:41:46 <Patashu> the world is moving in slow motion?
15:41:52 <Patashu> that's because you're at mindelay
15:43:03 <Patashu> fog would have been nice to know earlier
15:43:13 <elliott> are these worse than the other ones
15:44:25 <Patashu> don't go into the middle of them all
15:45:29 <ion> You could just add travel exclusions to the eel area and explore the rest of the level as usual.
15:45:36 <Patashu> ion: the eel area was the level
15:46:00 <Patashu> figure out what that ring is
15:46:04 <ion> Wasn’t like half of the level outside the view of the eels?
15:46:15 <Patashu> ring of invisibility isn't like in other games
15:46:19 <Patashu> you have to actually -evoke- it for invisibility
15:46:24 <Patashu> and it has a failure rate unless you pump evocations a lot
15:46:25 <ion> with potentially an useful item somewhere
15:46:27 <Patashu> but hey, ring of invisibility right
15:47:53 <elliott> how do i get to that fucking bazaar
15:47:57 <Patashu> you can come back to it l8r
15:48:05 <Patashu> (it's permanent because it wasn't announced)
15:48:28 <nortti> because writing cc hello.c && ./a.out would have been too boring: "cpp hello.c > hello_prep.c && ./wrapper/c2bf hello_prep.c && bfc a.b > a.c && cc a.c && ./a.out"
15:48:58 <ion> elliott: Also note the autofight key, the tabulator. It’s handy when you don’t care which enemy to hit.
15:49:04 <Patashu> it can't attack through the glass
15:49:05 <elliott> ion: I've been using that.
15:49:17 <Patashu> also, tab usually picks the enemy you were going to attack anyway
15:50:16 <Patashu> elliott: hill giants are your new ogres
15:50:35 <Patashu> why is there so much water in this dungeon
15:51:03 <ion> I tend to always add travel exclusions around dangerous places so i can safely autoexplore and autotravel.
15:53:02 <Patashu> drop your scroll of blinkin
15:53:49 <ion> How did dropping the scrolls help?
15:53:52 <Patashu> do you have anything you can id?
15:53:55 <Patashu> ion: it prevents them from burning up
15:54:16 <elliott> I think I want to go down another level.
15:54:20 <elliott> Is this the last lair level?
15:54:30 <Patashu> if it's not on D:13 you'll have to struggle your way up
15:54:45 <Patashu> I don't even know what to do
15:54:56 <Patashu> run away from the giant, first
15:55:28 <ion> Nooo, don’t
15:55:34 <ion> Enjoy your hydra.
15:55:41 <Patashu> all the stair cases are in one spot
15:55:53 <elliott> I'm just going to go bezerk.
15:56:03 <elliott> That was my way of asking you whether that would be a good idea.
15:56:11 <elliott> Is the reason that I would die?
15:56:13 <Patashu> hydras gain heads if you hit them with a sharp, non flaming weapon
15:56:26 <Patashu> I hate using blinking scrolls
15:56:50 <Patashu> it should go for it anyway
15:56:59 <Patashu> go for that upstairs over there
15:57:12 <Patashu> why are your dungeon levels so awful today
15:57:44 <ion> Try to blink to the other stairs up.
15:57:46 <Patashu> (should have done it earlier, actually)
15:58:23 <Patashu> you are having really bad luck
15:58:31 <elliott> OK. Time to take a breather.
15:58:38 <elliott> This is a much less chaotic situation than five seconds ago.
15:59:33 <Patashu> oh, now you're in the water
15:59:54 <ion> Note that you’re faster than them if you’re out of the water and the others are in the water.
16:00:19 <ion> You *are* in water.
16:00:32 <Patashu> I don't know why you walked off the stairs to begin with
16:00:35 <itidus21> someones gonna have fun reading this log! (no sarcasm..) it will read like journey to the center of the earth maybe.
16:00:46 <Patashu> with an orc wizard in los the whole time?
16:01:01 <Patashu> try confusing the orc wizard
16:01:02 <elliott> Confusion, invis, random, magic, digging, slowing, disinteg
16:01:04 <Patashu> it's crazy but it might work
16:01:06 <elliott> I've tried that a lot before
16:01:33 <elliott> I have 4 HP. A single hit from the yak would take me out.
16:01:43 <Patashu> a single magic dart will take you out
16:01:46 <Patashu> and is also guaranteed to hit
16:01:50 <Patashu> unlike the yak which is not
16:02:14 <elliott> What if I go one east, then hit the orc?
16:02:18 <Patashu> can you confuse the yak too?
16:02:19 <elliott> That'll get me just out of the reach of the yak.
16:02:56 <Patashu> (they all look shitty really)
16:03:42 <elliott> This is like that time in NetHack...
16:04:07 <Patashu> neither was guaranteed to work
16:04:12 <elliott> Can I have the death message from ##crawl?
16:04:21 <Patashu> <Gretell> elliott the Swashbuckler (L12 KoBe), worshipper of Trog, slain by a yak on D:12, with 16802 points after 17648 turns and 2:04:04.
16:04:57 <elliott> @tell monqy You _have_ to watch the 1768 / 2:04:04 turn game I just died in.
16:05:21 <itidus21> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
16:05:28 <elliott> To play again, or to take a break first...
16:05:33 <elliott> Patashu: Also, go to sleep.
16:05:37 <lambdabot> Local time for Patashu is Mon Apr 23 02:05:34 2012
16:06:21 <elliott> ion: You can dispense Crawl advice and wisdom, right?
16:06:32 <ion> elliott: I suck at Crawl.
16:06:45 <ion> FSVO advice and FSVO wisdom, sure.
16:07:02 <Patashu> anyway, in future be more careful with zerks when you're in serious peril
16:07:06 <Patashu> just as being hasted is reallyt really good
16:07:09 <Patashu> being slowed is really really bad
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16:09:55 <elliott> ion: Take a look at this Dungeon:1
16:10:29 <ion> The hblSl are behind glass. They won’t be able to do anything.
16:10:43 <elliott> That makes much more sense.
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16:25:16 <HackEgo> 651) <elliott> fizzie: It's like a JIT, if JITs were... strings.
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16:37:42 <elliott> you have a 2 hour replay to watch
16:37:48 <elliott> no it's not optional sorry
16:37:49 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:38:22 <elliott> i don't think the tv thing will play a full two hours though
16:38:33 <monqy> id have to download the ttyrecs
16:40:27 <monqy> or use the tv thing but
16:40:27 <monqy> ##crawl woul kill me
16:40:27 <elliott> oh can it actually play two hours
16:40:27 <elliott> you should totally do that, i hear ##crawl are nice
16:40:27 <monqy> if you know how to
16:40:27 <elliott> downside, my play would become laughing stock of crawl
16:40:27 <elliott> anyway lemme find the direct link to the ttyrec
16:40:27 <monqy> its easy with the !ttyrec sequelle command
16:40:27 <elliott> http://crawl.develz.org/ttyrecs/elliott/2012-04-22.13:56:36.ttyrec but this is like
16:40:27 <elliott> a totally distant second to watching it on the tv
16:40:27 <elliott> also i've uhhh forgotten most of it
16:40:27 <monqy> 09:39:55 <monqy> !hs elliott -ttyrec
16:40:27 <elliott> but there's a lot of really good bits
16:40:27 <monqy> 09:39:56 <Sequell> 34. elliott, XL12 KoBe, T:17648: http://crawl.develz.org/ttyrecs/elliott/2012-04-22.13:56:36.ttyrec
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16:40:41 <elliott> i see patashu requested my slaying earlier
16:41:12 <monqy> shorthand for !lg [...] max=sc
16:41:15 <elliott> connect with a new nickname and request it in /msg
16:41:26 <elliott> that would be pretty obvious
16:41:57 <elliott> monqy: what ttyrec player do you use
16:42:25 <elliott> to relive... the mammaries
16:42:37 <monqy> whatever i found first
16:42:39 <elliott> oh uh the ttyrec is uxterm so
16:42:43 <elliott> i guess it'll probably work fine though
16:43:27 <monqy> i havent bothered finding a great ttyrec player. ttyplay is the first i found and it works fine enough so i use it
16:43:35 <elliott> oh jettyplay loads this one fine
16:43:53 <elliott> it certainly has lots of features
16:44:43 <elliott> i think it will probably be uhhh
16:44:46 <elliott> less than 2 hours in practice
16:44:50 <elliott> because there was a lot of doing nothing
16:45:04 <elliott> it's exciting though. like an action movie
16:45:30 <monqy> when should i start it now?
16:47:43 <monqy> oh no what code were you talking about
16:47:49 <ion> TODO: synchronized multiuser ttyplayer
16:48:04 <elliott> this is quite boring to start with
16:48:09 <elliott> but it gets interestingly relatively quickly
16:48:52 <ion> Actually, i want a synchronized multiuser video player with a chat overlay.
16:50:48 <monqy> the ""general wisdom"" is to do the lair before orcish mines because orcish mines can be hard, but powerful characters can do orc first if they want
16:50:48 <elliott> mostly the fun parts consist of the ten thousand near-death experiences
16:51:01 <elliott> you should see what i have to deal with right before the entrance to the orcish mines
16:51:06 <elliott> and also i didn't know where the lair was
16:51:11 <elliott> and i thought fighting orcs was fun
16:51:15 <elliott> that was before i went down into the orcish mines
16:51:33 <monqy> lair appears from dungeon lvel 8 to 13 i think??
16:54:24 <monqy> oh nice elec weapon there
16:54:47 <elliott> the best number of orc priests
16:54:53 <elliott> yes it's a nice weapon it gets nicer later on
16:57:26 <elliott> a huge number of corpses to trog
16:57:31 <elliott> like at the expense of actually eating
16:57:58 <monqy> eating is more important since you need food to berk and berk costs a lot of food
16:58:15 <elliott> i also use brothers at arms a lot
16:58:21 <monqy> i guess thats later
16:58:24 <elliott> so in retrospect it was a good decision
16:59:08 <elliott> really bad berks occasionally
16:59:18 <elliott> like ones that run out right as i reach whatever i was trying to berk
17:00:06 <elliott> wow i spent a lot of time on dungeon 3
17:00:20 <elliott> now i follow an ant for ages
17:02:18 <elliott> add another e on to that word
17:03:01 <monqy> oh yeah dont berk things that will probably walk away from you
17:03:33 <monqy> edmund is ususally a wimp just dont fight him with other things at the same time
17:04:31 <elliott> gotta have scroll of curse whatveer
17:07:51 <elliott> run down a corridor really angrily
17:08:16 <elliott> the thing before the entrance to the mines
17:08:26 <elliott> that's when the exicteing starts
17:08:29 <monqy> mines entry vault?
17:08:40 <elliott> the long game before this i lost to blink frogs
17:09:15 <monqy> blink frog pakcs have to be handfled carefully yeah
17:09:26 <elliott> i think my technique was: berk
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17:12:01 <elliott> prince ribbit has a human corpse?
17:12:40 <elliott> that was me checking i had
17:12:43 <elliott> corrosion resistance thing
17:16:22 <elliott> monqy: the entrance is on this floor iirc
17:17:46 <elliott> the pre-entrance bit i mean
17:19:03 <elliott> argh, this level is way more complicated than i remember
17:20:50 <monqy> did you look up its logfirle
17:21:16 <monqy> sometimes ghosts can have particularly scary features that are spoiled in their logfiles
17:23:24 <elliott> i thought that was the entrance
17:24:23 <monqy> space warps horribly around you? oh no did one of htem have a distortion weapon oh yes
17:24:30 <monqy> you could have gotten
17:24:33 <monqy> banished to the abyss
17:25:00 <elliott> patashu demandd ido the boring thing here
17:27:12 <monqy> bia on an eel is probably a bit excessive
17:28:38 <monqy> probably you hit ' or something
17:28:47 <monqy> ' switches between weapons in slots a and b
17:30:11 <monqy> oh no what idd you do
17:30:35 <monqy> why didnt you just hit the b and run away if you got low on health :(
17:30:44 <elliott> ohhh nooo you might dieeee
17:31:22 <monqy> 59 is far too much to die to a golaithe beetle in 1 hit
17:31:44 <elliott> i think this is the entrance
17:32:25 <elliott> i might even modify my configuration to not stop for bats
17:32:38 <elliott> uuugh this part was a pain
17:33:04 <monqy> bats are ez with lots of autofight
17:33:22 <monqy> yeah that is a crawl problem
17:33:38 <monqy> (which is why you should have a key with both autofight and autoexplore on them)
17:34:08 <elliott> just because autoexplore put me there
17:34:15 <monqy> woww whata re you doing
17:34:20 <elliott> so i don't get electrocuted
17:34:39 <monqy> or do you mean from using your elec weapon on a water monster
17:34:51 <elliott> patashu just said electorcute
17:35:02 <monqy> oh dont worry about it
17:35:11 <elliott> not in a rational state at the time
17:37:37 <monqy> antimagic is good but for most things you shoul dusie your elec i think??
17:37:48 <elliott> spoiler the next god gift is an antimagic weapon too
17:37:59 <monqy> trog likes antimagifc
17:39:05 <monqy> there are lots of ways to do armour and im not really an expert at it
17:40:08 <elliott> wasn't sure if you could melee them
17:41:12 <elliott> 90% sure this is the entrance
17:42:53 <monqy> the only reason your iron troll was able to kill erolcha is
17:42:57 <monqy> because there was a bat behind her
17:43:00 <monqy> so it went for the bat
17:43:10 <monqy> ah yeah that's the Orc entry
17:43:38 <monqy> nice giant spore behind the orcs
17:43:58 <monqy> i probably would have shot a piercing ranged attack at the giant spore back there
17:44:06 <monqy> kill the spore and hurt and confuse the orcs
17:44:07 <elliott> the best part is how this makes me decide i WANT to go in the orcish mines
17:47:31 <elliott> that meat ration really hit the spot
17:49:57 <elliott> it looked so easy at this stage
17:50:32 <elliott> monqy: do you go "hi" at people who do this too
17:50:48 <elliott> use staircases to vacuum up bad guys
17:51:08 <monqy> i'd probably say hi at this point
17:51:13 <elliott> i can accept a hi, the alternative was uhhhhhhhhh
17:51:29 <monqy> losing all your hp in stair dancing is definitely a "hi" moment
17:53:11 <elliott> somehow they got much easier right after
17:54:07 <monqy> for orc high priest and such you might want to use antimagic if you have a good antimagic weapon
17:54:25 <elliott> trust me i make far poorer decisions than not switching weapon along the way
17:54:43 <elliott> i like the part where escape hatch
17:55:23 <elliott> i tried to coordinate this at first
17:56:10 <elliott> monqy: spoiler the best part is when i stair dance with the wrong upstairs
17:59:13 <elliott> i think he was giving me a hint
17:59:51 <monqy> i wonder which ending vault you got
18:00:10 <monqy> stairdance into elf
18:00:12 <elliott> ...with the entrance to the elvish mines
18:00:41 <elliott> must have been fun for the elves
18:02:29 <monqy> did you see any orc warlords or stone giants or iron trolls
18:02:57 <elliott> there's a bit ten times as crazy as this at the end
18:03:51 <monqy> yeah orc:4 has an end vault
18:05:28 <elliott> i like how more orcs came to the safe place
18:06:53 <elliott> that the orcs could go around my throttle
18:07:13 <elliott> ok i knew it but i thought it just wouldn't be a problem
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18:07:31 <itidus21> oops shaohiosahiaohsiaoas sorryyy
18:07:49 <elliott> dont worry "yak" does not even begin to explain the cause of death at hand
18:07:59 <elliott> monqy: this is where it starts to get brilliant
18:08:00 <oklopol> "18: And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him."
18:08:27 <elliott> monqy: wrong stairs again!!!
18:09:43 <elliott> not where the stairs are!!!
18:10:07 <elliott> how did i ever survive that
18:10:11 <oklopol> was the h not pronounced when the earth was created?
18:10:42 <elliott> monqy: god im really bad at stairs
18:11:02 <monqy> at least youre alive!!!
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18:13:08 <elliott> kobold can't catch a break
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19:03:34 <zzo38> My opponent has NIGHTLY GARBAGE RUN in his hand, but no eligible cards in his trash, and I intend to keep it that way!! All of his cards are resisted to all of my cards but I might still win
19:04:25 <zzo38> Especially if he doesn't wake up this turn.
19:04:56 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:05:05 <nortti> "Mmm, now there's an idea: adding syntax coloring to ed... Perhaps we could also build a Lisp interpreter into it?"
19:05:50 <zzo38> He did not wake up so now I am nearly guaranteed to win, as long as I do not knock out any of his cards.
19:07:38 <zzo38> Although he can still attempt to retreat even if confused, so I have to be careful about that too. I do have GUST OF WIND so that might help.
19:08:03 <nortti> "ed's size on my debian box is around 42k." ed 42kB in size!? ed on my box is 6.16kB
19:08:23 <zzo38> nortti: Maybe it is the Haskell version?
19:08:50 <nortti> zzo38: well I am using the versuon from unix v6
19:09:24 <zzo38> I know that executables for Haskell programs are much larger than C executables
19:09:54 <nortti> or maybe he just has a very crappy c compiler
19:14:07 <nortti> I have made my c2bf preprocessor kinda usable (supports #include <name> and #include "path") and my stdio.h has working implementations of getchar,putchar and puts
19:14:50 <nortti> is there some feature you would really want to see ib c2bf?
19:15:17 <ais523> nortti: why not just use cpp as the preprocessor?
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19:16:53 <zzo38> He does have the ability to save himself (use SWITCH to reactivate KANGHASKHAN [Lv40] and then retreat), but he seems to be blind to that fact
19:17:08 <RocketJSquirrel> nortti: I cannot even begin to imagine why you are using C2BF for anything.
19:17:10 <nortti> ais523 because it throws in all kinds of junk that c2bf can't take and system header files don't really work with c2bf
19:18:06 <nortti> RocketJSquirrel: I use unix v6 ed for coding. Did you get your answer?
19:18:17 <elliott> nortti: you realise RocketJSquirrel wrote c2bf
19:18:55 -!- RocketJSquirrel has changed nick to Gregor.
19:19:12 <Gregor> -NickServ- 13 failed logins since last login.
19:19:22 <Gregor> THERE SHALL BE ONLY ONE GREGOR
19:20:24 <nortti> Gregor: to put it another way: I like hacking little bit limited stuff
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19:21:49 <nortti> by the way when was c2bf last updated?
19:23:49 <nortti> Well I am working on a update. Getting string support is now top priority for me
19:24:19 <Gregor> It has some kind of array support, strings shouldn't be enormously difficult.
19:24:48 <elliott> It would be easier were you to just implement --C-=C-C-- ;)
19:26:18 <monqy> amazing new esolang by our friend nsqx
19:26:58 * ais523 disapproves of having a single datatype called "void" that can hold more than one value
19:27:21 <Gregor> ANYTHING can be lost in the VOID.
19:27:31 <zzo38> If I simply pass my turn now, I am guaranteed to win.
19:27:44 <Ngevd> I don't think it is turing-complete either, due to having linear-bounded memory
19:27:49 <elliott> ais523: I disapprove of any datatype called "void" with more than zero values
19:28:08 <elliott> Ngevd: Oh, good point. You should post that on the talk page.
19:28:10 <ais523> elliott: C's void has one value
19:28:30 <elliott> ais523: well, technically C doesn't really have a void type at all
19:28:35 <elliott> but yes, I disapprove of C's abuse of the term "void"
19:29:29 <ais523> Deewiant: it's normally assumed to be 0 by analogy with the other types, but a type with one value, it doesn't make sense to say what the value is
19:29:32 <ais523> as you can't distinguish it from anything
19:29:34 <nortti> elliott: I am trying to get c2bf to compile itself because I am crazy
19:29:43 <elliott> ais523: That's pseudoscience.
19:30:16 <Deewiant> ais523: How can you tell it has even one value?
19:30:23 <ais523> Deewiant: because you can return void
19:30:38 <ais523> a type with no values, things that returned that type couldn't return
19:30:48 <elliott> you can return (with a special form) from a function with return type void
19:30:52 <elliott> but it doesn't ever acutally return a value
19:30:59 <elliott> actually, you could make a good case that C's void _does_ have 0 values
19:31:02 <zzo38> Actually in C, void just means the lack of a type, as far as I can tell
19:31:03 <ais523> elliott: in that case, there are a huge number of special cases for void
19:31:05 <elliott> but that C means something different by the usual function arrow
19:31:11 <ais523> e.g. a ? b : c works fine with b and c being void
19:31:46 <Gregor> ais523: But that ?: has no value.
19:32:03 <ais523> Gregor: it has the same value as all other void things
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19:32:27 <Gregor> Right. None. You can't put it anywhere. You can't store, use, compare or even cast it.
19:32:58 <ais523> hmm, can you take its address?
19:33:08 <ais523> void* exists as a type, but I don't think you can get a void object to take the address of
19:33:22 <Gregor> And you can't dereference a void*.
19:33:28 <elliott> you can't dereference a (void *)
19:33:35 <elliott> but you can cast it to another pointer and dereference that
19:33:37 <ais523> /I/ can, I don't know about you :)
19:33:38 <zzo38> ais523: The type void* means a pointer to something that it does not specify the type, so "void" is in place of the type
19:33:38 <elliott> thus, void must have no values
19:33:44 <ais523> <gcc-bf> goto *(void*)0
19:34:52 <elliott> oh, hey, Aardwolf! I haven't seen you in here before
19:35:15 <ais523> Aardwolf: it's only TC given an infinite program
19:35:31 <elliott> I was about to say just what ais523 was going to say
19:36:28 <Ngevd> Also erroneously Turing-complete?
19:37:24 <Aardwolf> Is a desktop computer considered Turing-complete?
19:37:32 <ais523> Aardwolf: no, it doesn't have access to infinite storage
19:37:40 <elliott> ais523: stop stealing my thoughts
19:37:55 <ais523> it's what's known as a "bounded-storage machine", a machine where lack of storage is the only obstacle to TCness
19:38:10 <Aardwolf> If a language specifies no limits, is it not infinite then?
19:38:59 <Aardwolf> What makes Brainfuck Turing complete then?
19:39:02 <Gregor> A language not specifying limits may or may not be TC, but at least isn't assured not to be.
19:39:17 <Ngevd> Brainfuck can access infinite area in a finite program
19:39:40 <Ngevd> +[>+], for example
19:39:40 <zzo38> Aardwolf: You are Lode Vandevenne, isn't it? I used your LodePNG library in my TeXnicard program.
19:39:47 <Aardwolf> Yes, in that case, it's actually not Turing complete
19:39:55 <Gregor> The language Brainfuck-as-interpreted-by-your-favorite-Brainfuck-interpreter-running-on-a-real-computer is not TC.
19:40:37 <Gregor> The language Brainfuck is TC.
19:40:55 <elliott> Aardwolf: It'd be possible to make such a CA-type thing TC by providing a way to expand the field.
19:41:07 <elliott> Game of Life patterns can construct things dynamically, which is why it's TC
19:42:17 <ais523> elliott: indeed; the most popular method to achieve TCness is to have infinite storage; the second most popular is to have some method of increasing the storage from within the program
19:42:31 <Aardwolf> Yep, I got it, thanks for explaining it! I thought, if it's similar to a PC, it's TC, but a PC also can't magically expand its RAM so... :)
19:42:34 * ais523 used infinite rather than unbounded intentionally
19:42:39 <Ngevd> I think, in Uniquode, I'm gonna make ℒ execute STDIN as a brainfuck program
19:42:43 <Gregor> elliott, ais523: Is that usefully distinct from having infinite storage?
19:42:53 <elliott> Consider a BF derivative with wrapping tape.
19:42:58 <elliott> And an instruction to add a new 0 byte to the tape.
19:43:37 <Gregor> I don't mean "is there a difference between these two classes of languages," I mean "is there any useful knowledge to be gained by distinguishing them."
19:44:44 <ais523> Gregor: TCness proofs are often easier distinguishing them
19:45:07 <ais523> an expandable-storage language isn't going to be able to simulate an infinite-storage language directly, you'll need to automatically add expands at appropriate places
19:45:31 <oklopol> consider the language where every program of length n is given BB(n) memory
19:45:33 <ais523> this came up in the MiniMAX proof, where someone asked why I didn't just use an existing BF derivative rather than inventing my own with an explicit expand command
19:46:33 <elliott> ais523: infinite-storage is like GC for expandable-storage machines, or something
19:46:50 <ais523> now I'm trying to work out if that's TC
19:47:07 <ais523> I guess it is, by definition, and possibly points out problems with the definition…
19:47:11 <elliott> you can't write a UTM simulator in it, no?
19:47:25 <ais523> elliott: you can, if it runs out of memory you go into an infinite loop
19:47:30 <oklopol> well, if it runs out of memory and detects it, it could just loop forever without doing anything.
19:47:38 <ais523> it's not BF-complete, though
19:47:45 <elliott> this language is of the devil
19:47:50 <oklopol> then if only the result after program stops is used for tcness considerations, it's just as tc as it originally was.
19:48:14 <elliott> oklopol: you're meant to use your powers for _good_
19:48:14 <nortti> but if source given to it is infinite in size?
19:48:21 -!- impomatic has joined.
19:48:49 <elliott> nortti: infinite programs don't exist
19:48:58 <ais523> `addquote <elliott> gah <elliott> this language is of the devil <elliott> oklopol: you're meant to use your powers for _good_
19:49:02 <HackEgo> 845) <elliott> gah <elliott> this language is of the devil <elliott> oklopol: you're meant to use your powers for _good_
19:49:18 <HackEgo> 484) <itidus20> monqy: last night in my dreams I saw a false photo album of my childhood... looking ghostly
19:49:18 <elliott> proof: no program prints chaitin's constant. if we have infinite programs, then putchar a; putchar b; ... can print chaitin's constant
19:49:20 <HackEgo> 402) [on spiking] <CakeProphet> drugs are expensive. It would be a waste to use them on a random stranger.
19:49:21 <HackEgo> 842) <elliott_> (help why are german) <monqy> i play the german version of crawl <elliott_> i
19:49:24 <HackEgo> 317) <Gregor> elliott: Fythe-generated code doesn't use C calling conventions, because C calling conventions are for pussies.
19:49:30 <impomatic> Busy Beavers? Dewdney wrote something about those...
19:49:33 <nortti> elliott: start is ptogram and rest is padding
19:49:41 <HackEgo> 824) <Taneb> coleridge and
19:49:41 <HackEgo> 558) <NihilistDandy> Also Perl, but I don't really consider that a programming language so much as a really heavy implementatino of awk
19:49:44 <ais523> elliott: this is why I invented 1cnis, to allow for infinite programs that don't have that sort of problem
19:49:44 <HackEgo> *poof* <Gregor> elliott: Fythe-generated code doesn't use C calling conventions, because C calling conventions are for pussies.
19:49:56 <ais523> elliott: agreed, although 824 isn't too great either
19:49:59 <Ngevd> coleridge and was one of the voice recognition ones
19:50:04 <oklopol> elliott: that's kind of a silly proof :D
19:50:05 <zzo38> (I mean, the fastcc in LLVM)
19:50:06 <elliott> ais523: it's better than the ten that follow it
19:50:15 <elliott> oklopol: sorry if you can't handle my LOGIC
19:50:22 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29698
19:51:32 <oklopol> cellular automata are pretty much given infinite programs
19:52:04 <impomatic> If anyone is feeling generous, I'd quite like this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/110862346333#ht_542wt_1270
19:52:08 <Ngevd> oklopol, with a finite region non-default
19:52:39 <oklopol> oh you mean periodic outside a finite region
19:52:44 <elliott> impomatic: if I buy that, do you end up indebted to me for life?
19:52:58 <elliott> i mean i figure someone's soul is probably worth at least 261 euros
19:53:03 <ais523> elliott: "indebted for life" doesn't really work, that just implies that he never pays the debt back
19:53:14 <Ngevd> If we all chip in 5 euros, no problem
19:53:26 <impomatic> elliott: yes, what ais523 said :-)
19:53:34 <zzo38> Ibtlfmm could be made to compile into Haskell but it wouldn't work well because of some optimizations which are not allowed in Haskell and that an interpreter would be difficult too
19:53:45 <elliott> impomatic: you're a terrible debtor!
19:53:47 <impomatic> As long as I don't have to pay the debt in the afterlife...
19:53:49 <zzo38> Ngevd: I don't have any euros
19:53:50 <itidus20> impomatic: would pirated ebook versions suffice?
19:53:58 <elliott> Would a photograph suffice?
19:54:13 <Ngevd> zzo38, can you get any in the next minute?
19:54:16 <zzo38> A photograph of what?
19:54:23 <ais523> a spider with seven legs?
19:54:23 <elliott> impomatic: Here you go: http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/ODYzWDEyODA=/$(KGrHqVHJ!8E-E7jRHUzBPi)jpt8uw~~60_12.JPG
19:54:33 <ais523> also, what a bizarre URL
19:54:39 <ais523> (my client won't parse $ as part of an URL, incidentally)
19:54:58 <oklopol> Ngevd: usually, you study the set of all infinite inputs, but yeah sometimes you restrict to periodic or finite (+ unary outside).
19:55:07 <itidus20> i get a great deal of joy from metaphorically and hypothetically hunting ebooks online
19:55:12 <elliott> i wonder if i could even enter my details in that amount of time
19:55:17 <zzo38> Even if I did have euros I would have no way to pay them within the next minute.
19:55:44 <elliott> OK, now you'll have to bid on it with Feather
19:55:51 <Aardwolf> Haha the forth books jumped in price during the last 3 seconds
19:55:57 <ais523> elliott: Feather doesn't work like that
19:56:02 <elliott> ais523: That's what you always say.
19:56:02 <ais523> you'd have to put a bid of $0 on
19:56:08 <elliott> I don't think you even believe it yourself.
19:56:10 <ais523> then retroactively increase it to something larger
19:56:46 -!- tswett_ has changed nick to tswett.
19:57:15 <itidus20> so thats a fuckton of money for secondhand books
19:58:00 <oklopol> Ngevd: but usually you study undecidability of questions.
19:58:21 <oklopol> well okay then there's the people who like tcness proofs, and do things like universal CA
19:58:36 <impomatic> I could probably put the same collection together for less... I checked Amazon, Abebooks, eBay to figure out how much to bid.
19:58:37 <Ngevd> One day, I hope to understand all this.
19:59:14 <ais523> impomatic: how much do you think the collection should have been worth?
19:59:35 <oklopol> there aren't really any books on CA, so it may be a bit hard to get into it
20:00:04 <impomatic> To me, it's worth just over 100 euros. Some of the books on Amazon etc are overpriced.
20:00:36 <oklopol> well i'm not aware of one that contains any useful data
20:00:50 <impomatic> One of the books was listed for $150 or so, but it doesn't mean anyone would pay.
20:01:51 <oklopol> well there are at least two books about ca, wolfram's book called "pretty pictures of CA and a boring undecidability proof in the appendix", and then some other guy's book which looked stupid.
20:02:00 <impomatic> http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=The+Recursive+Universe+by+William+Poundstone
20:02:19 <ais523> oklopol: ANKOS contains at least one incorrect proof
20:02:30 <ais523> and I got to tell Wolfram about that over the phone :)
20:02:40 <ais523> although I'd worked out a fix for it, so it wasn't a disaster
20:03:16 <itidus20> oklopol: on this list you can see that many exist.. but i assume most are not useful from this chat http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l2736&_nkw=cellular+automata
20:04:00 <oklopol> "Provides a comprehensive treatment of all the techniques in nonlinear dynamics together with C++, Java and SymbolicC++ implementations."
20:05:04 <oklopol> well that's a lot of books, i have no idea if all of them suck :D
20:05:09 <itidus20> for the scavenger such books tend to exist free.. but i know i am not among people who would stoop so low
20:05:28 <oklopol> at least there isn't one that people suggest as reading material if you want to get into CA.
20:05:37 <itidus20> oklopol: ok cool.. so you genuinely didn't realize ... so thats good...
20:05:47 <itidus20> i showed someone something novel
20:05:51 <oklopol> perhaps because afaiu most people think CA are a dying field.
20:06:22 <Ngevd> Cellular Automaton
20:06:25 <oklopol> (i strongly disagree, it's the best)
20:07:07 <zzo38> Do you like the flaw/feats I have selected in the Dungeons&Dragons game?
20:07:22 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:07:28 <itidus20> oklopol: growing up.. i didnt know any books existed... simply being aware that some resource exists can be a great thing
20:07:42 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:07:50 <elliott> most people only find out that books exist when they turn 20 or so
20:07:58 <elliott> I was lucky, only took me until 13
20:08:12 <elliott> ais523: when did you realise that books existed?
20:08:49 <Ngevd> itidus20, if that's normal for Australia I'm glad I got out when I did
20:09:05 <ais523> elliott: much earlier than that, we used books in school
20:09:22 <nortti> I have alway known that books exist. Am I normal?
20:09:33 <ais523> nortti: is anyone in this channel normal?
20:09:35 <elliott> nortti: no. you're probably going to die
20:09:44 <elliott> it's usually fatal to be exposed to books before 3 years of age
20:09:55 <elliott> monqy: it's okay, adults are speaking
20:10:08 <ais523> zzo38: who in this channel is almost normal?
20:10:11 <zzo38> We are all a bit crazy
20:10:21 <oklopol> itidus20: well there are a lot of research papers that are suggested for reading, which i am aware of.
20:10:43 <Ngevd> fungot is pretty normal
20:10:59 <Ngevd> fizzie, poke fungot
20:11:17 <itidus20> my universe is expanding rapidly
20:11:39 <itidus20> dear god i hope there is nothing else
20:11:42 <elliott> http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/130033/how-to-use-an-account-after-puppet-sock-punishment-action
20:12:25 <oklopol> the day after i subscribed to the arxiv mailing list was when i realized papers most definitely exist.
20:12:25 <ais523> elliott: the answer is entirely correct and sensible
20:12:43 <elliott> ais523: yes, it's the other part that isn't
20:12:48 <itidus20> the trouble with research papers is that you need an extra level of comprehension to read them beyond books
20:13:07 * elliott wonders if anyone has asked anything similar on Wikipedia
20:13:12 <oklopol> and also how little CA stuff is being done, unless you count the papers of our group, there has been one paper on CA, and oh god how we laughed at it
20:13:17 <elliott> "What is the best way to avoid an IP block from Wikipedia?"
20:13:18 <ion> What is PUPPET-SOCKing?
20:13:27 <elliott> ion: Like sockpuppeting, but inside out.
20:13:39 <elliott> Instead of one person controlling multiple accounts, multiple accounts control one person.
20:13:54 <ion> It also seems to involve shouting.
20:14:14 <itidus20> in soviet russia, sock wears you as puppet
20:15:24 <itidus20> cottonsock47 has been banned for being a human puppet.
20:16:30 <elliott> ais523: Welcome to America.
20:17:24 <Ngevd> elliott, Welcome to the UK
20:17:24 <elliott> ais523: Why isn't it not 9 pm?
20:17:35 <elliott> @time where ngevd used to be
20:17:37 <lambdabot> Local time for where is Mon Apr 23 06:17:34 2012
20:17:39 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Sun Apr 22 13:17:37 2012
20:17:46 <elliott> monqy: Can I come over there?
20:17:58 <ais523> I don't think @time accepts time zones
20:18:09 -!- elliott has changed nick to BST.
20:18:12 <BST> ais523: Try now.
20:18:15 <lambdabot> Local time for BST is 2012-04-22 20:18:14 +0000
20:18:20 <ais523> meanwhile, where will be wondering why they got a random CTCP TIME…
20:18:23 <BST> It has an off-by-one error.
20:18:30 -!- BST has changed nick to UTC.
20:18:30 <Sgeo> Someone please explain to me how lol is an appropriate response here? http://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/sk5fj/nothing_on_the_internet_prepared_me_for_this/c4fbe0b?context=3
20:18:33 <lambdabot> Local time for UTC is 2012-04-22 20:18:32 +0000
20:18:33 <lambdabot> Local time for UTC is 2012-04-22 20:18:32 +0000
20:18:40 -!- UTC has changed nick to elliott.
20:18:43 <ais523> why did it reply twice?
20:18:44 <monqy> Sgeo: why are you browsing reddit
20:18:49 <Ngevd> Local time for Melbourne is 6:18 AM
20:18:49 <monqy> Sgeo: why are you browsing /r/funny
20:18:57 <monqy> Sgeo: what's reddit, what's /r/funny
20:18:58 -!- itidus20 has changed nick to Melbourne.
20:19:09 <lambdabot> Local time for Melbourne is Mon Apr 23 06:18:45
20:19:09 <lambdabot> Local time for Melbourne is Mon Apr 23 06:18:45
20:19:11 <elliott> the great thing about /r/funny is that nothing in it is funny and everyone is terrible
20:19:13 -!- thutubot has joined.
20:19:19 -!- Melbourne has changed nick to itidus20.
20:19:40 <ais523> [CTCP] Received unknown CTCP-TIME request from thutubot to Channel #esoteric.
20:19:49 <Sgeo> That's... special, thutubot
20:19:52 <itidus20> my time isnt perfect.. but its close enogh
20:20:01 <ais523> thutubot's still probably doing /that/
20:20:08 <ais523> that's the reason I brought it here in the first place
20:20:19 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is 2012-04-22 20:20:18 +0000
20:20:19 <thutubot> Local time for elliott is 2012-04-22 20:20:18 +0000
20:20:33 <elliott> why did lambdabot say it twice
20:20:42 <Sgeo> elliott, that's not lambdabot
20:21:12 * ais523 notes that repeating everything lambdabot says is actually thutubot's main use nowadays
20:21:17 <ais523> oh, and doing Underload when fungot isn't here
20:21:22 <ais523> on that note: fungot isn't here
20:23:12 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.11695
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20:23:38 <itidus20> i... i didn't think that out very well
20:23:39 <ais523> elliott: here's another good one: http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/95207/how-does-a-stack-overflow-moderator-know-about-sockpuppets
20:23:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1382
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20:27:11 <elliott> "KKK If i m cheater then it is not the law to punish others ... !!!!"
20:27:15 <elliott> Their logic is infallible.
20:27:34 <elliott> @qu— wait, that would actually work if I did it.
20:27:35 -!- thutubot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:28:18 <zzo38> In Dungeons&Dragons game, I have selected the flaw called "Weak Combatant" and the feat called "Favored Mercy (Aberration)"
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20:29:35 <Ngevd> Quick, what's "You're welcome" in Swedish?
20:30:50 <Deewiant> "Welcome" is "välkommen", not sure how the "you're" would be added idiomatically.
20:31:23 <olsner> you don't usually add "you're" at all, it's just välkommen
20:32:01 <Deewiant> Of course, if you wanted the response to "thanks", it's "var så god".
20:32:13 <Ngevd> Yes, that would be preferred
20:32:52 <Deewiant> Evidently written together, according to Wiktionary. O_o
20:33:14 <elliott> Deewiant: "Written together"?
20:33:33 <elliott> Well, if you enunciate too clearly, the old religious people beat you up.
20:34:46 <elliott> Deewiant: In Finnish of course you don't have this problem, not because your language has fewer profanities, or because your country has fewer old religious people, but instead because you never talk.
20:36:10 -!- MoALTz has joined.
20:36:14 <Ngevd> In a couple of years, I may need to learn enough Finnish to pass as a Finnish beggar in Lund, Sweden
20:36:18 <oklopol> in finnish, when someone says thanks, i usually say "mm"
20:36:44 <elliott> Yes, it's normal to have such strange reflex responses to something unknown, like people being polite.
20:37:01 <elliott> Finnish people are often diagnosed with PTSD after going to the shops.
20:37:25 <elliott> olsner: Or people talking you to you?
20:37:46 <olsner> you to people to you talking you to tou
20:38:00 <Ngevd> oklopol, shenanigans
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20:40:31 <elliott> i will miss you all in heaven ~~~>
20:40:33 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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20:43:12 <nortti> "The BHCT claim that Lane's rogue suicide prevention efforts endanger the lives of the people trying to kill themselves. "
20:44:23 -!- MoALTz__ has joined.
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20:45:38 <ais523> nortti: surely the question is as to whether it makes them more or less likely to end up dead
20:46:17 <Ngevd> Is this those nets that I heard about?
20:46:27 -!- Lumpio_ has joined.
20:47:30 <zzo38> I think they should be allowed to select the method of their death, such as, scientific experiments, war, being eaten, losing at Washizu mahjong, etc
20:47:33 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
20:47:45 <nortti> "It's either an insane anarchy symbol or a symbol for a highly educated Satan."
20:47:57 -!- MoALTz has joined.
20:48:23 <zzo38> The government just wants to get paid a lot of taxes.
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20:51:09 <zzo38> nortti: What are you refering to?
20:51:43 <nortti> zzo38: http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/article/3/7/5/126375.jpg?v=1
20:52:55 <zzo38> It doesn't look like those things to me
20:53:45 <nortti> "Their long-term goal is to completely rewrite the yeast genome, officially meaning that scientists aren't just playing God but taking over from where the last guy left off."
20:53:53 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: brb).
20:54:43 -!- augur has quit (*.net *.split).
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20:56:32 <nortti> 'if you asked a computer to design a life-form to survive the anti-life equation of a continent that is Australia, it would never say, "Weld a duck to a beaver after filling both with poison."'
20:57:05 -!- Frooxius has joined.
20:57:32 <zzo38> nortti: Are you sure? The computer might be programmed to be crazy too
20:58:06 -!- TheFogg has joined.
20:58:45 <zzo38> Can you make a quiz about esolang using this format gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/0quiz.menu*c and then send it to sprunge, and then send it to gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net/7quiz.menu*B
21:00:47 <nortti> there are other people still using gopher?
21:01:35 <zzo38> nortti: Yes there is a bit, including Floodgap they will tell you the list of all the gopher servers they know, which are hundreds
21:02:23 <nortti> I know about floodgap. It is fron page on overbite android
21:05:28 <Lumpio_> You did not just seriously post a gopher:// URL
21:05:38 <zzo38> Lumpio_: Actually I did
21:06:22 <ais523> Lumpio_: zzo38 is quite a gopher fan
21:08:28 <nortti> Lumpio_: weren't you who said that no one uses gopher anymore
21:09:36 <Lumpio_> I guess that would imply zzo38 is a no-one.
21:10:36 <nortti> I think I am double no one. I have written a few gopher clients and servers
21:10:50 <zzo38> I have also written a few gopher clients and servers
21:11:02 <ais523> Lumpio_: try doing a web search for zzo38 (or "zzo38 OR zzo38computer", as he recommends)
21:11:44 <zzo38> You may occasionally find impostors and unrelated things but you can find relevant things too
21:12:36 <zzo38> I wrote two gopher client programs, one for Windows and one for UNIX; I have also written two gopher server programs, one in BASIC and one in C.
21:13:30 <nortti> zzo38: was the one for unix written in shell scripts
21:14:19 -!- Lumpio_ has changed nick to Lumpio-.
21:15:28 <nortti> I'd like to see it. I have also written one in shell scripts, but it wasn't really that usable
21:15:51 -!- TheFogg has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:16:39 -!- MoALTz has joined.
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21:17:31 <Ngevd> I could do with a Gopher client, but the only thing I'd do with it is stalk zzo38
21:17:37 <Ngevd> So I think I'd better not
21:17:52 <zzo38> nortti: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/bashgopher/bashgopher (I wrote it using MinGW; it does work on Linux too with minor modifications)
21:18:24 <zzo38> If you want gopher client on Windows: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/visgopher/visgopher.exe source-codes: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/visgopher/visgopher_src.zip
21:19:27 <zzo38> nortti: I want to see a one you have too
21:19:39 -!- fungot has joined.
21:19:43 <Ngevd> "Component 'MSCOMCTL.OCX' or one of its dependencies not currently registered: a file is missing or invalid"
21:19:53 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
21:19:59 <zzo38> Ngevd: Simply find a copy of that file which can be downloaded (possibly from Microsoft)
21:20:31 <nortti> zzo38: I'll send it when I get to my computer (on my cellphone right now)
21:21:09 <nortti> have you used gophervr?
21:21:20 <zzo38> nortti: I have read about it.
21:21:39 <nortti> it is pretty intetesting
21:21:54 <nortti> still not as good as lynx
21:23:16 <Ngevd> Nah, it's not liking me
21:23:28 <Ngevd> MAYBE SOME OTHER DAY I WILL VISIT ZZO38'S GOPHER PAGE
21:24:03 <zzo38> Ngevd: I can try to make a proper installer to see if that works better
21:24:05 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Quit: hagb4rd).
21:24:16 <Lumpio-> Now I can brag to all my friends about having used gopher
21:24:20 <Ngevd> zzo38, if you're not too busy
21:24:30 <nortti> Lumpio-: lynx supports EVERYTHING!!
21:24:42 <Lumpio-> nortti: Does it support WebGL?
21:24:56 <Ngevd> Lumpio-, if that's something to brag about... you have friends?
21:25:14 <Lumpio-> Ngevd: I have... IRC friends .__.
21:25:38 <Lumpio-> Wait a minute, why is there a thing called "furryscript" in here
21:26:03 <zzo38> Lumpio-: Furryscript is the name of a programming language
21:26:31 <zzo38> A description is found here: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/FurryScript
21:26:45 <Lumpio-> Wait a minute, you have a gopher proxy for Stack Overflow!?
21:26:52 <zzo38> Lumpio-: I don't consider it, but perhaps somewhat
21:26:59 <zzo38> Lumpio-: Yes I do have
21:27:27 <Ngevd> zzo38, do you go bouldering from time to time?
21:27:45 <zzo38> Ngevd: I do not even know what that means, probably not
21:28:06 <Ngevd> It's a style of rock-climbing
21:28:27 <Ngevd> Without ropes, a small climb, with crash pad
21:28:46 <zzo38> I almost never go to rock-climbing
21:28:53 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/user/munkystargate
21:29:01 <Sgeo> I think this person is either stupid or a troll
21:29:21 <Ngevd> I believe there are very few actually stupid people
21:29:43 <nortti> "Multi-licensed with Creative Communism"
21:29:55 <Ngevd> Also, why is my surname on that page
21:29:59 <Ngevd> Also also, goodnight
21:30:03 -!- Ngevd has quit (Quit: goodnight).
21:31:38 <Lumpio-> I believe most people are actually stupid.
21:32:27 <nortti> zzo38: do you really use netcat to communicate over IRC
21:32:37 <zzo38> nortti: I used to; now I use PHIRC
21:33:06 <nortti> was it hard to respond to pings?
21:34:36 <nortti> I haven't really used IRC with netcat not counting the one time I used it to study how IRC protocol works
21:35:34 <Lumpio-> ...I've used telnet to IRC from Windows at times
21:35:44 <Lumpio-> I don't know why I didn't just use a web client.
21:37:10 <Gregor> http://codu.org/rawirc.c
21:37:56 <nortti> I also use irssi on my computer
21:38:48 <ion> I switched from Irssi to WeeChat.
21:41:00 <ion> 1988 Crystal Light National Aerobic Championship Opening http://youtu.be/ozoTzkCeO-A
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21:44:57 <ion> `words --french
21:45:26 <ion> `words --french 50
21:45:32 <HackEgo> priege albenfisse hûraissentiel untortain énolo asses sanie punisain asil epison ensement reiona pahomo dreursumino galiseignera conifcurt lehesneaux lacées sofnou maliti stel dina defolic filmander revena
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22:14:05 <zzo38> I have made setup program now: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/visgopher/Setup.exe
22:21:01 <ais523> bleh, the appropriate channels are being useless, so I'll ask #esoteric instead
22:21:21 <ais523> does anyone know what needs to be done to a chroot, to be able to connect to a postgresql database (that's outside the chroot) from inside it?
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22:27:45 <Gregor> I love when foods label themselves "98% fat free"
22:27:55 <Gregor> Also known as "2% fat"
22:29:19 <monqy> better than 100% fat, hey
22:29:32 <ais523> monqy: unless it's something like butter that's intended to be 100% fat
22:29:43 <Gregor> Was just about to say what ais523 just said ;)
22:29:49 <Gregor> If I'm buying a tub of lard, it'd better be 100% fat.
22:30:06 <ais523> OK, so how do I make a socket-on-filesystem?
22:30:26 <Gregor> ais523: Do whatever the Hurd does, and then don't do that.
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23:12:09 <Gregor> Madoka-Kaname: That's why I went with lard.
00:04:12 <pikhq> Anyone here know more about low-level x86 legacy junk than I do?
00:05:25 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/FTdG If so, tell me why this isn't working.
00:07:39 <Lumpio-> It seems you're writing a bootloader. Did you know there are many bootloaders that work perfectly fine, and enable you to skip the boring parts of building stuff that runs without an OS?
00:07:48 <olsner> maybe the disk addressing is wrong
00:08:02 <olsner> do heads and cylinders start at 0 or 1, for instance?
00:08:11 <pikhq> olsner: All but sectors are 0-indexed.
00:08:54 <pikhq> Lumpio-: This is like saying "It seems you're writing a kernel. Did you know there are many kernels that work perfectly fine?"
00:10:02 <pikhq> Replacing the x86 bootup sequence with "you get 32k loaded at 0x10000" is aesthetically pleasing.
00:11:00 <pikhq> As is knowing all the code running since the BIOS lost control.
00:11:29 <Gregor> pikhq: So, BIOS OK, bootloader not :)
00:11:41 <pikhq> Gregor: BIOS is unavoidable.
00:12:09 <Lumpio-> ...not if you can fit a disk driver into 510 bytes!
00:12:28 <Gregor> You could write your own BIOS code!
00:12:39 <pikhq> Lumpio-: The BIOS is still going to run before your bootloader.
00:12:59 <pikhq> Gregor: I suppose in theory I *could*, but that is machine-specific hell.
00:13:21 <pikhq> About the only thing you know for certain *there* is that the instruction pointer is at 0x0800:0.
00:14:41 <Lumpio-> I've only read about BIOS development once, and I heard it's not very easy.
00:15:07 <pikhq> Hardware manufacturers are lowest-cost bastards.
00:15:26 <Lumpio-> I never knew how much the BIOS actually does
00:15:42 <Lumpio-> Apparently some people hacked a C compiler to generate code that runs in the CPU cache
00:15:52 <pikhq> It's just some remedial hardware initialisation and a lot of legacy junk.
00:15:52 <Lumpio-> ...because the BIOS has to initialize the main memory controller before the memory can be used
00:16:11 <pikhq> Yeah, that's called "overengineering".
00:21:46 <Lumpio-> So anyways is your thing crashing at the disk read or
00:24:57 <olsner> seems to work in bochs, whatever that means
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00:35:22 <zzo38> "You might as well ask why they don't have touchdowns in baseball, or why they don't have a "royal flush" in tennis." Are you going to make a baseball with touchdown and a tennis with royal flush?
01:14:32 <pikhq> Lumpio-: No, it's just not jumping into my code right.
01:14:38 <pikhq> Maybe it's a qemu bug?
01:17:24 <pikhq> 'Cept, unless qemu is horrifically broken, this should work...
01:17:38 <pikhq> Can't be a BIOS bug if it works in bochs, seeing as qemu uses the same BIOS.
01:21:40 <Gregor> Freenode should allow Unicode nicks ...
01:21:47 <pikhq> VBox has a retarded interface, making it nontrivial to just go "run this disk image kthx"
01:24:09 <pikhq> As does bochs, for that matter.
01:25:02 <pikhq> "You can also start bochs with the -q option to skip these menus."
01:25:13 <pikhq> I passed -q to you!
01:26:35 <Lumpio-> pikhq: What debugger are you using
01:27:22 <pikhq> None, because there god-damned isn't a sane asm debugger.
01:27:58 <pikhq> And bochs appears to be horrifically broken on my system.
01:28:02 <pikhq> bochs-bin: symbol lookup error: /usr/lib/bochs/plugins/libbx_x.so: undefined symbol: XpmCreatePixmapFromData
01:28:58 <zzo38> Gregor: No, I think it should be ASCII according to RFC
01:31:28 <Lumpio-> pikhq: How did you determine it's not jumping into your code right
01:32:18 <pikhq> Lumpio-: I don't see the single side effect my code has, writing 'A' to the screen.
01:33:15 <ion> http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalzberg/2012/04/22/university-of-florida-eliminates-computer-science-department-increases-athletic-budgets-hmm/
01:33:16 <Lumpio-> How does it write it to the screen? Did you try writing something before the jump out of the bootloader?
01:33:22 <Lumpio-> ...could you paste the code it loads?
01:34:22 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/ITAD
01:38:08 <zzo38> I also would like to have a custom BIOS in PC; one which uses the PC BIOS functions (both the old and new ones) but has Forth interpreter built-in, which can be used to configure the BIOS and to allow the computer to function even without an operating system. In addition, it should implement: terminal by serial port, telnet, TFTP, and download an operating system to RAM to run, to install from internet in that way.
01:39:55 <zzo38> Lumpio-: Have you figured out the Pokemon Card puzzle better now? (First and/or second file)
01:40:08 <Lumpio-> zzo38: I haven't really looked at it
01:40:49 <Lumpio-> pikhq: I'd probably try writing directly into the display memory instead of using BIOS calls
01:40:54 <Lumpio-> ...just in case something messed it up
01:41:54 <zzo38> Lumpio-: If you want the hint then I can provide some if asked; the (incorrect) solution you gave is what everyone (other than coppro) has said, too.
01:42:20 <zzo38> And, yes, you can write directly into the display memory which is usually how I do it too
01:43:23 <pikhq> Lumpio-: Ugh, writing to specific addresses in real mode. :P
01:43:52 <Lumpio-> This is what 32 bits and protected mode is for ~
01:44:14 <zzo38> There is also unreal mode
01:50:00 <pikhq> Anyways, did it and it doesn't work.
01:50:05 <pikhq> Though it works before the jump.
01:51:08 <Lumpio-> How are you making your disk image, got a makefile?
01:51:19 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/IhFW
01:52:24 <zzo38> I have partially written an operating system for PC, but I have currently abandoned work on it (and might never continue); but you can look at it if you want to.
01:53:16 <pikhq> According to qemu's memory inspection, there's nothing but null at 0x10000.
01:53:35 <pikhq> Which seems quite strange.
01:54:32 <Lumpio-> I made memory management and multiprocessing but then I got bored.
01:56:23 <pikhq> I genuinely got nothing here.
02:00:19 <Lumpio-> I wonder where the stack starts if you don't set sp
02:01:17 <pikhq> Lumpio-: sp is set by the BIOS to 256 bytes above the end of your bootloader.
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02:04:39 <zzo38> I also wrote a short MBR code which you can use if you want to.
02:06:15 <Lumpio-> aww, I found one of my own too
02:06:50 <coppro> Writing a kernel is fin
02:08:24 <Lumpio-> ...it seems to do the exact same thing
02:09:30 <pikhq> Lumpio-: What differences even exist?
02:11:02 <Lumpio-> Well mine is dumb and assumes disk0
02:11:33 <Lumpio-> ...and it doesn't bother with byte movs and just sets full registers but
02:13:42 <Lumpio-> Oh and there's no jmp at the start
02:15:21 <pikhq> Oh, now I see what it is.
02:15:39 <pikhq> Fun fact: qemu borks on just catting stuff together.
02:15:48 <pikhq> Making a 1.44M image makes it work.
02:16:34 <Lumpio-> Maybe it doesn't like if you read past the image (even if it's emulating a floppy)
02:17:06 <Lumpio-> I'd at least print a warning...
02:20:29 <zzo38> Why do you just assume disk0?
02:21:22 <pikhq> zzo38: I don't. :)
02:41:53 <zzo38> Another programming language I wanted to invent, other than Ibtlfmm, is one which combines C, LLVM, and BLISS. Do you have any suggestion for name? Probably I could implement it more easily, and possibly in Haskell; but it will compile into LLVM
03:02:56 <pikhq> Now to figure out why the heck I can't get into protected mode.
03:03:06 <pikhq> Dear qemu: infinite reboot loop? Not helpful.
03:12:00 <zzo38> pikhq: I have had that problem too; the problem is that the example code to enter protected mode has a mistake in it.
03:13:38 <oklopol> why do seagulls keep attacking me :(
03:15:26 <oklopol> i mean yeah i do want to tear their wing out and grind them into featherpudding, but that's only due to the previous attacks.
03:19:13 <oklopol> (which is pretty much every time i see seagulls, and once some bigger bird decided i was oh so totally delicious)
03:19:25 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/dNQU Further ideas?
03:22:47 <Gregor> oklopol: It's because you bathe in fish carcasses every morning.
03:23:43 <itidus20> oklopol: those gulls are ones i fed some bread to at a picnic years ago...
03:24:36 <itidus20> :| .. life has grown considerably more depressing since those years
03:24:55 <oklopol> yeah isn't it great how our lives evolve :)
03:25:09 <oklopol> i'm gonna go back to work, let's see if i make it there alive.
03:25:30 <itidus20> lol. my moneys on you staying alive.
03:25:51 <oklopol> well right, i'll probably just lose my sight.
03:27:47 <zzo38> Too many cards spoils your chances of winning.
03:28:26 * itidus20 sends a raichu to assist oklopol.
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03:49:56 <zzo38> To assist oklopol doing what?
03:54:37 <pikhq> zzo38: In what way was the example code mistaken?
03:55:13 <zzo38> pikhq: I seem to remember, it was that it set an extra bit of the keyboard controller to tell the computer to reboot
03:56:05 <zzo38> Yes that is what was wrong.
03:57:41 <pikhq> Heeeey, still doesn't work.
03:57:57 <zzo38> Perhaps look at my code
03:58:53 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/DefZ
04:04:47 <pikhq> Not quite. Doesn't seem to be working still.
04:06:07 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/CLGI The incantations, they work not.
04:15:58 <zzo38> pikhq: Does it have two ways of hexadecimal numbers?
04:17:52 <pikhq> zzo38: Whaddya mean?
04:18:14 <pikhq> deadbeefh and 0xDEADBEEF are both hex numbers in nasm, if that's what you mean.
04:18:27 <zzo38> Yes that is what I meant
04:20:34 <pikhq> Only thing I can figure is that my global descriptor table table is wrong somehow.
04:21:15 <zzo38> pikhq: Maybe it is; does the emulator tell you anything about the reboot purpose? In Bochs, it did say the reboot was due to the keyboard controller command.
04:21:30 <pikhq> qemu doesn't tell me that at all.
04:21:39 <pikhq> And bochs isn't working on my distro ATM.
04:22:11 <zzo38> Then I don't know. I don't know much about global descriptor table.
04:23:17 <pikhq> Well, who does? It's arcane magic.
04:24:25 <zzo38> With the hexidecimal numbers, the thing I can see is that since you can use names too, it might confuse things if you have a name called "bach" or something like that. (In my program, all numbers are hexadecimal, and all names must be prefixed by $ so there will never cause such confusion)
04:25:21 <zzo38> pikhq: Arcane magic like in Dungeons&Dragons 3.5 eidition, like in 4th edition, or like in Icosahedral?
04:27:30 <pikhq> bochs-bin: symbol lookup error: /usr/lib/bochs/plugins/libbx_x.so: undefined symbol: XpmCreatePixmapFromData
04:27:34 <pikhq> Fuck you, bochs. Fuck. You.
04:29:52 <fizzie> pikhq: Shouldn't the limit part of gdtr: be "gdtend-gdt" rather than "gdt-gdtend"?
04:30:00 <pikhq> fizzie: ... Probably.
04:30:44 <fizzie> And also dw for the limit and dd for the base, I'd think.
04:31:49 <pikhq> The base is supposed to be a 32-bit physical address for the GDT...
04:32:23 <fizzie> Yes, so why would it be "dw"?
04:37:18 <pikhq> Not that that helps at all.
04:38:40 <pikhq> Okay, finally got bochs working.
04:39:33 <pikhq> Message: write_virtual_checks(): write beyond limit, r/w
04:40:21 <pikhq> Oh, duh. Let's set up my data segments. XD
04:42:09 <pikhq> Message: interrupt(): gate descriptor is not valid sys seg (vector=0xff53)
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05:01:47 <zzo38> Do you like the nasm syntax or my syntax? There are other kind of assembly syntax too, in case you like that one instead, too.
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05:07:32 <pikhq> I think I prefer nasm syntax, but yours isn't too bad.
05:07:50 <pikhq> What's *bad* is AT&T-style syntax, as per gas.
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05:54:26 <zzo38> I don't like Haskell's deleteBy and deleteFirstsBy; I would prefer :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a]
05:55:24 <zzo38> And intersectBy should be :: (a -> b -> Bool) -> [a] -> [b] -> [b]
05:58:37 <zzo38> Or perhaps like this :: (Foldable t, MonadPlus m) => (a -> b -> Bool) -> t a -> m b -> m b
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07:01:02 <Sgeo> Why am I reading a comic about Go rather than sleeping?
07:01:50 <pikhq> Because sleep is for mortals.
07:01:59 <olsner> maybe you're afraid that if you go to sleep you will never wake up
07:03:30 <Sgeo> http://www.tigersmouth.org/viewpage.php?page_id=37
07:03:48 <Sgeo> Hmm, it appears to be for kids
07:04:02 <Sgeo> Judging from the "Play Go now" thing saying that there are other kids in the KGS room for the comic
07:05:53 <monqy> what did you expect
07:13:04 <zzo38> I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition
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07:22:07 <olsner> no one expects.... etc
07:23:51 * pikhq demands the Spanish Inquisition
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07:34:46 <zzo38> I thought of something like this: mconcat . primeFactors = id; map primeFactors . primeFactors = map return . primeFactors; primeFactors mempty = []; It is something which can be done on a category too, where you have a functor from that category to the free category of the quiver of that category.
07:49:12 <zzo38> I think it is also a faithful functor
07:51:07 <zzo38> Do you know these things?
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13:18:57 <NSQX> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-04-22#193102zzo38
13:23:04 <NSQX> Well, since void just means "no type", I used it as the only type in --C-=C-C-- because --C-=C-C-- literally had "no different types" but C/C++ does not allow assignment of a variable without decleration and I did not want to remove that restriction from --C-=C-C--
13:41:38 <Gregor> Sooo you conflated ⊤ and ⊥.
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13:44:59 <Gregor> And here I was going to say something about how the dyn type conflates ⊤ and ⊥ anyway.
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14:06:04 <Gregor> COLON EQUALS (U+2254) ≔
14:06:09 <Gregor> Why does this unicode character exist.
14:06:14 <Gregor> It admits in its name that it's two characters.
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15:15:33 <elliott> 21:08:28: <nortti> Lumpio_: weren't you who said that no one uses gopher anymore
15:15:33 <elliott> 21:09:36: <Lumpio_> I guess that would imply zzo38 is a no-one.
15:15:41 <elliott> Lumpio-: It's more that he doesn't count as part of "everyone".
15:16:25 <elliott> 21:26:45: <Lumpio-> Wait a minute, you have a gopher proxy for Stack Overflow!?
15:16:30 <elliott> It's read-only, or I'd use it exclusively :'(
15:17:02 <Lumpio-> I doubt OAuth would support Gopher anyways
15:18:14 <elliott> Any authentication mechanism that doesn't support gopher is useless.
15:19:47 <ion> HTTP-over-Gopher
15:21:11 <elliott> 22:21:21: <ais523> does anyone know what needs to be done to a chroot, to be able to connect to a postgresql database (that's outside the chroot) from inside it?
15:21:18 <elliott> ais523: If it uses a TCP socket, then "nothing", I think.
15:21:24 <elliott> If it doesn't, maybe make it so it does?
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15:21:39 <elliott> — I hear that you can send fds over Unix sockets.
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15:30:10 <ais523> tabcomplnoworkwithoutspace
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15:31:40 <ais523> elliott: you can telnet nethack4.org now, btw
15:31:48 <ais523> I recommend using telnet-ssl, to annoy kerio
15:32:02 <elliott> I'm sure telnet will be sufficiently annoying to start with
15:32:05 <ais523> or ssh nethack@nethack4.org, password is nethack
15:32:21 <ais523> elliott: right, but I'm trying to undermine his main argument about ssh's superiority
15:32:28 <elliott> anyway, if I play NetHack 4, I might forget the little amount of knowledge of how to play Crawl that I have
15:32:34 <elliott> ais523: you should set up mosh
15:32:38 <elliott> ais523: it'd be ideal for NetHack
15:32:42 <elliott> since most of the screen doesn't change each turn
15:32:48 <elliott> and it'd ensure consistent cross-terminal support
15:33:04 <elliott> (also, it authenticates over ssh, so you only have to install the mosh-server program and let ssh connectors use it)
15:33:08 <ais523> doesn't mosh assume that it isn't on a vastly shared account with separate sessions per user?
15:33:24 <elliott> I think you can set it up to run any program you want
15:33:43 <elliott> but it doesn't necessarily assume that beyond the fact that it starts a shell
15:33:57 <ais523> well, it isn't starting a shell in nethack4.org's case
15:34:07 <elliott> right, that's why I said you'd have to configure it to start the right program
15:34:11 <elliott> but you have to do that with ssh too
15:34:18 <ais523> I set nethack's login shell as a compiled executable that chroots to a hardcoded directory, drops permissions, and runs a hardcoded executable
15:34:39 * ais523 thinks there's something delightfully self-contradictory about a suid login shell
15:34:45 <elliott> right, so that just has to recognise whatever arguments ssh adds if you pass it "mosh-server blah blah blah"
15:34:57 <elliott> and start mosh-server with the hardcoded executable it runs as a parameter
15:37:08 <elliott> wow, how can a tr0lltherapy comment be at 315 points?
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15:39:35 <elliott> even if you will massively disrupt tab-completion
15:39:41 <HackEgo> ellisonch: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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15:44:16 <ais523> elliott: I can ping you easily enough with e tab
15:44:30 <elliott> ais523: anyway, that only works if i was the last e to talk, I think
15:44:32 <ais523> although arguably bash-like rather than cmd-like completion would be better in this case
15:44:46 <ais523> so if someone else is the last e to talk, I can just shout at them for not being you
15:44:47 <elliott> it should be based on frequency of how much you ping someone, IMO
15:44:58 <elliott> unless they haven't talked in ages
15:45:05 <ais523> elliott: if I just press tab, it repeats my last ping
15:45:12 <ais523> but I rarely do that, hard to get into the habit
15:45:24 <ais523> (there was no need to ping on that line, but I did anyway for testing purposes)
15:58:52 <elliott> ais523: OK, I'll try NetHack 4
15:59:21 <ais523> for some reason, it doesn't do anything but ASCII graphics on the server, not sure what that's about
15:59:27 <ais523> probably some misconfiguration in the chroot
15:59:56 <elliott> ais523: how long are the passwords?
16:00:23 <ais523> elliott: as big as can fit into the internal buffer, I think; they get hashed and salted, and the resulting hash seems to be around 50-60 chars long
16:00:29 <ais523> including the copy of the salt
16:00:42 <elliott> ugh, you should truncate them at 8 chars like CDO so I have less to type
16:00:54 <ais523> you could just use a shorter password?
16:00:59 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
16:01:08 <ais523> there's no reason your password has to be max length
16:01:17 <elliott> but that way I can't blame the server for password insecurity
16:01:31 -!- nortti has joined.
16:02:15 <elliott> ais523: actually, I think ssh /is/ superior to telnet for game servers, just for better reasons than kerio
16:02:24 <elliott> because you can let people register with an SSH key rather than a password
16:02:41 <elliott> katia:~ elliott$ cat /dev/urandom | tr -cd 'a-zA-Z0-9' | head -c 20
16:02:43 <ais523> hmm, except that would require creating users on the server
16:02:58 <elliott> ais523: well, or using an SSH library to hook up the authentication to something else
16:03:07 <nortti> elliott: are you using OS X?
16:03:12 <ais523> fwiw, I use head -c on /dev/urandom, followed by uuencode, to produce random passwords
16:03:15 <elliott> but it's not really a problem to create a bunch of users; you can do it in a chroot if you want to avoid cluttering up the rest of the system
16:03:23 <elliott> nortti: yes, because my keyboard is broken
16:04:04 <elliott> OK, setting LANG=C makes tr do what I want there
16:05:54 <ais523> one thing that's weird: running gcc with all locale settings set to C rather than my usual en_GB.utf8
16:06:07 <ais523> the messages are still in English, but different
16:07:25 <elliott> "Confirm password:" fuuuuck
16:07:42 <elliott> please tell me it autologsin after that
16:08:01 <ais523> elliott: you'll be logged in after confirming
16:08:04 <elliott> ais523: are the default settings sane
16:08:14 <ais523> although one of them doesn't work and the fallback is insane
16:08:27 <ais523> why are you using a password more complcated than you can type, anyway?
16:08:35 <ais523> and why can't you just copy it with dragover/middleclick?
16:09:03 <elliott> ais523: because I'd usually use the same password I use for more or less everything (terrible habit, I know, but I haven't thought of a convenient enough fix yet), except I refuse to type that over telnet
16:09:09 <elliott> so I just generate a random one and email it to myself
16:09:32 <elliott> ais523: bug: it mangles the case of the name I give it
16:09:45 <elliott> ugh, first thing I did was type o
16:10:01 <elliott> ais523: bug two: Ctrl+hjkl doesn't work
16:10:19 <elliott> just not through doors, or something
16:10:29 <ais523> you wouldn't expect it to work through doors
16:10:38 <ais523> elliott: I swap o and v in Crawl
16:10:45 <ais523> you can swap o and v in nh4, if you like
16:11:16 <elliott> bug three: G isn't travel :P
16:11:24 <ais523> you can swap G and _ too if you like
16:11:48 <elliott> wow, early-game nethack monsters are so weak compared to Crawl
16:12:27 <elliott> ais523: blue is a bad choice for text, btw
16:12:34 <elliott> because the default colour for it is usually too dark to be readable
16:12:46 <ais523> elliott: you can turn on use_darkgray and it'll be darkgray instead
16:13:00 <ais523> that's not on by default because it has rendering problems on many terminals, and it wouldn't do for it to be invisible
16:13:00 <elliott> I was making a defaults suggestion, but thanks
16:13:07 <nortti> zzo38: You wanted to see my shell script gopher client: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28915864/shgopher
16:13:48 <nortti> @tell zzo38 Myhell script gopher client: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28915864/shgopher
16:15:09 <elliott> wow, it's amazing just how weird NetHack feels after playing Crawl for a few days
16:17:02 <elliott> ais523: btw, does nethack4.org have spectators?
16:17:08 <elliott> if yes, why does it force you to log in first?
16:17:14 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:17:23 <ais523> elliott: not yet, although you can see recordings of games after they happen (including other people's)
16:17:29 <ais523> it hasn't been implemented yet
16:17:44 <elliott> what was wrong with dgamelaunch, out of curiosity?
16:17:55 <ais523> it's not a good fit for nitrohack's view of the world
16:18:05 <ais523> and it's pretty cruftily coded internally
16:18:28 <ais523> it's got too much of a dependence on the terminal settings of the person playing
16:18:52 <elliott> wow, this level is really weird
16:19:35 <elliott> (http://ompldr.org/vZGhlZw)
16:20:51 <elliott> ais523: btw, why does the weak message say "SPECIES needs food, badly!"? it does that in nethack too
16:21:05 <ais523> elliott: it's a reference to Gauntlet
16:21:30 <ais523> it triggers only on things that were classes in gauntlet; elf was a class, so was wizard, and a couple of others
16:21:39 <ais523> indeed, it isn't, it's a class
16:23:01 <elliott> ais523: hearing the chime of a cash register probably shouldn't stop travel
16:23:22 <elliott> hmm, it seemed to just there
16:23:26 <elliott> but I could be misinterpreting the situation
16:23:30 <ais523> I don't think I've changed anything about that wrt travel stoppers
16:23:35 <ais523> did you see a monster, or step on an item or engraving?
16:23:38 <elliott> well, that's why i'm making suggestions :)
16:23:44 <elliott> I don't think I saw a monster, but I could have
16:24:29 <elliott> ais523: another bug: tab doesn't do my fighting for me ;)
16:25:40 <elliott> wow, Firefox doesn't support javascript: URIs any more
16:25:43 <elliott> I wonder what that means for bookmarklets?
16:26:02 <nortti> elliott: what? it doesn't?
16:26:04 <ais523> or all the sites that still use them?
16:26:21 <elliott> ais523: oh, good point; it's probably just direct address-bar entry they've disabled
16:26:32 <nortti> elliott: what firefox version are you running?
16:26:50 <elliott> ais523: hmm, autoexplore will happily explore even if there's monsters about
16:27:04 <ais523> elliott: but only one step, if they're a threat
16:27:20 <ais523> it's not identical to Crawl autoexplore, it's meant to stop at places where there's a reasonable choice of continuing or stopping
16:27:37 <elliott> yes, I'm just reporting every way the interface differs from Crawl's as a bug :)
16:27:42 <elliott> apart from the things i hate about crawl's interface
16:29:21 <elliott> everyone else must be really terrible
16:29:39 <ais523> elliott: no, the server just only came up very recently
16:29:48 <ais523> all the /good/ players haven't died yet :)
16:29:52 <elliott> ais523: btw, it's not clear that the scrollbars are really scrollbars
16:30:01 <elliott> I suggest putting e.g. Unicode up and down arrows at the top and bottom of them
16:30:17 <ais523> that'd leave less room for the bar itself, which is a problem on a smaller screen
16:30:22 <elliott> no, put them inside the bar
16:30:27 <elliott> at the topmost and bottommost positions
16:30:36 <ais523> I mean it'd shorten the bar by 2
16:30:43 <elliott> it would leave the bar at the exact same size
16:30:50 <elliott> you put the arrows /inside/ the bar
16:31:04 <elliott> if you really have one-character-big scrollbars, put an UPDOWN ARROW in them, I'm sure there's a character like that
16:39:28 <elliott> ais523: hey, which Crawl bot is which, again?
16:39:54 <ais523> elliott: Henzell reports on CAO; Gretell reports on CDO; Sequell reports stats in response to IRC questions
16:40:09 <ais523> generally speaking, for IRC queries, learndb stuff goes to Henzell, everything else to Sequell
16:40:12 <elliott> hmm, so Sequell is the one I want to ask about monsters/items?
16:40:15 <elliott> I thought there were two bots
16:40:19 <elliott> one of which did monsters and the other items, or something
16:40:29 <ais523> oh, not sure on that one, if you're looking for raw stats
16:40:34 <ais523> ask henzell if you're looking for learndb entries
16:40:40 <elliott> well, I want to ask the question "is this better than this", mainly :P
16:41:35 <ais523> try looking at in-game information? i then the item letter
16:42:41 <elliott> meh, I'd rather know before I pick it up
16:43:02 <elliott> 05:08:37: <Patashu> Henzell responds to ??
16:43:02 <elliott> 05:08:46: <Patashu> Gretell responds to @??
16:44:23 <elliott> ais523: hmm, what syntax does sequell use?
16:45:16 <ais523> elliott: in /msg to Henzell
16:45:20 <ais523> I know, I just tried it
16:45:42 <ais523> elliott: the documentation on how to use sequell is a learndb entry
16:45:45 <ais523> thus, it is in henzell
16:46:08 <ais523> not really, it's more logical than splitting the entries up between bots
16:46:10 <elliott> how do you view the subsequent pages? :P
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16:49:09 <ais523> elliott: repeat the query with a number in square brackets
16:49:22 <elliott> 17:46 <Henzell> I don't have a page labeled !lg[2] in my learndb.
16:49:30 <ais523> elliott: oh, !lg is a redirect, it seems
16:49:42 <ais523> you have to use the name it responded with to access subsequent entries
16:49:54 <elliott> anyway, AFAICT this is just the documentation for !lg
16:49:58 <elliott> is that the only command Sequell supports?
16:50:18 <elliott> oh, for heaven's sake, I'll just ask you: is chain mail or ring mail better?
16:50:46 <ais523> I assume chain mail, but I don't know, and it probably depends on your skills
16:51:12 <ais523> this sort of question rarely has a simple answer in Crawl, because it's going to depend on a formula with nested d calls and twenty input variables
16:51:24 <ais523> (apparently there's a d(d(d6)) call in Crawl somewhere)
16:51:53 <elliott> 17:51 <elliott> ??chain mail
16:51:53 <elliott> 17:51 <Henzell> chain mail[1/1]: 7 AC, -4 EV.
16:51:53 <elliott> 17:51 <elliott> ??ring mail
16:51:54 <elliott> 17:51 <Henzell> ring mail[1/1]: +5 ac -2 ev.
16:51:57 <ais523> when making Crawl Light, one of the things dtsund did was add a numerical spell success percentage value; in order to do this, he first had to modify the code to be able to actually work out the success rate
16:52:15 <elliott> hmm, is crawl light any good?
16:52:21 <ais523> which was apparently mathematically nontrivial
16:52:31 <ais523> and I approve of it compared to regular Crawl, but it hasn't forked very far yet
16:54:05 <ais523> this is probably not a good strategy ;)
16:54:24 <elliott> ais523: well, I have no use for it, I'm just glad I can id them no
16:54:33 <elliott> my #1 crawl complaint so far, btw, is that autoexplore stops for bats
16:54:42 <ais523> you can make it not stop for bats in your RC file
16:54:44 <elliott> it should just ignore them, or maybe repeatedly autofight until they die
16:54:49 <ais523> doing so means you will probably get killed by bats, though
16:55:06 <elliott> ais523: I don't remember a bat ever doing appreciable damage to me, ever
16:55:13 <elliott> but yes, it should switch to autofight instead
16:55:18 <elliott> like monqy's script, except less... drastic
16:55:21 <ais523> elliott: it adds up, and they're faster than you
16:55:37 <ais523> also, the whole bat dance thing is ridiculous, there's a sequence of weird motions you can make to keep the bat in combat more often
16:55:54 <elliott> my #2 crawl complaint: worms and goliath beetles exist
16:58:04 <elliott> wait, I forgot, I'm a berserker
16:58:08 <elliott> OK, I don't care much about worms then
16:59:34 <ais523> worms are pretty easy, you can outrun them, so you just pelt them with junk/spells until they're dead
17:00:00 <elliott> ais523: yes, but that's really really annoying
17:00:08 <elliott> and I start hating Crawl whenever I have to do that
17:00:22 <ais523> elliott: this is why I hate Crawl, you have to do that on pretty much everything later in the game
17:00:24 <elliott> I forget whether he's a wimp or not
17:01:38 -!- augur has joined.
17:01:52 <elliott> hmm, I wonder if monsters pick up things you leave around on the floor
17:02:39 -!- cheater has joined.
17:04:11 <ais523> elliott: they can do; and jellies can destroy them
17:05:06 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 11.0/20120312181643]).
17:05:24 <elliott> ais523: right; I left a quarterstaff of chaos on the floor and then thought better of it
17:20:03 <elliott> ais523: err, why does Crawl let you wield armour?
17:20:22 <ais523> I think it lets you wield anything
17:20:34 <ais523> in NetHack, wielding armour is occasionally useful, but I don't think it is in Crawl
17:22:28 -!- oerjan has joined.
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17:23:59 <elliott> does Trog dislike you using glowing items, since they're magic?
17:24:03 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
17:25:33 <elliott> this channel has too little monqy in it to be ##crawl
17:27:12 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:27:41 <ais523> elliott: he doesn't dislike magic, he dislikes spellcasting (specifically)
17:27:45 <ais523> he's just fine with other sorts of magic
17:27:55 <elliott> ais523: good to know, thanks
17:29:41 <elliott> argh, there's chain mail on dungeon:1 and I didn't even notice
17:34:51 <oerjan> i wish webchat gave _some_ indication that you're still connected even if no one is talking :(
17:35:19 <oerjan> it's failure to do so is making me nervous.
17:35:31 <elliott> just say @ping every 10 seconds
17:35:57 <oerjan> elliott: yes that will go down well. i want a method which doesn't require me to do more than glance at the window.
17:36:15 <elliott> use an eye-based control interface so you can type @ping<ret> by glancing
17:36:59 <elliott> ais523: hendell is really useful, thanks
17:38:21 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nervous enough not to stay here, actually).
17:42:28 <elliott> z adder skeleton (wandering)
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17:57:50 <elliott> ais523: haha, I was in a fight so long that I managed to go berserk, finish being berserk, recover from my exhaustion and slowness, and go berserk /again/ before it finished
17:57:50 -!- cheater has joined.
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18:05:33 -!- augur has joined.
18:05:43 <HackEgo> 232) [CTCP] Received CTCP-ERRMSG reply from clog: unknown CTCP: ERRMSG.
18:05:54 <HackEgo> 86) <Warrigal> A person's sex is not the same thing as their penis length.
18:05:55 <HackEgo> 107) <soupdragon> if you claim that the universe is more than 3D the burden of proof is on you to produce a klien bottle that doesn't self intersect <soupdragon> ^ I learned that trick from atheists
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18:23:48 <ais523> elliott: was it a disappointing anticlimax, as usual?
18:24:17 <elliott> I went down, ran into two powerful uniques, and decided to fight them rather than running away and preparing
18:25:16 <ais523> I'd call that a reasonably disappointing anticlimax
18:25:28 <elliott> well, NetHack has its fair share of that kind of stuff, too
18:25:38 <elliott> fighting everything you run into = dead
18:25:59 <ais523> yes, but the alternative is normally "find a creative way round" rather than "run away and use a different staircase"
18:26:45 <elliott> fair enough, although I think I could have survived if I had fought less stupidly
18:26:53 <elliott> rather than using berk as the solution to (and cause of) every problem
18:32:50 <olsner> hmm, britishairways.com looks like it says british hairways
18:39:17 <elliott> ais523: another reason mosh would be good for roguelikes: lets you know when your connection is lagging, stopping you doing really stupid things due to it
18:46:58 <elliott> I like how Crawl highlight "{was cursed}" in red
18:51:02 <elliott> ais523: hey, how can I check how much something weighs in game?
18:51:16 <ais523> elliott: in NetHack 4, the weight is shown in braces {5}
18:51:21 <ais523> you can't in vanilla NetHack
18:51:25 <ais523> Crawl also displays weight somewhere
18:51:33 <ais523> I think it's measured in aum, arbitrary units of mass
18:51:41 <elliott> thanks, that level of detail per game is the opposite of what I needed :P
18:53:04 <Gregor> (And knowledge is power!)
18:53:13 <ais523> oh, what information were you looking for?
18:53:37 <elliott> well, the weight of splint mail in Crawl; but how to find the weight of any item is a more useful abstraction of that
18:54:27 <ais523> try the i screen, I guess, it's probably there
18:54:37 <elliott> aha, selecting the item in i works
18:55:03 <elliott> _Your low strength makes using this armour a little more difficult.
18:55:08 -!- impomatic has left.
18:55:51 <ais523> elliott: I told you there were far too many stats involved :)
18:56:07 <elliott> I wouldn't care if there was a good info source for it
18:56:12 <elliott> e.g. a wiki that isn't as terrible as the one everyone says is terrible
18:56:59 <elliott> hmm, I can't figure out how much str I'll need
18:57:28 <ais523> neither can anyone else
18:57:34 <ais523> you could ask ##crawl, I guess, maybe they'll know
18:57:48 <elliott> accordingly, I've never joined it
18:58:43 <elliott> ais523: does esolangs.org load for you?
18:59:07 <ais523> elliott: it's being slow, at least, not loaded yet
18:59:14 <elliott> Gregor: ping, can you try too?
18:59:26 * elliott tries downforeveryoneorjustme too
18:59:33 <ais523> and stuck at the "Looking up…"
18:59:56 -!- nortti has joined.
19:00:04 <elliott> indeed, http://178.79.159.81/ loads instantly
19:00:05 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:00:09 <elliott> that means it's probably afraid.org
19:00:22 <elliott> we really need to get that domain moved somewhere more reliable
19:00:23 <ais523> yep, I think it's a DNS issue
19:03:04 * elliott considers emailing THE ALAN DIPERT
19:03:08 <Gregor> elliott: Looking up forevers.
19:03:43 * elliott while true; do ping -t5 esolangs.org; done
19:04:09 <elliott> right as i do that it goes back up
19:04:11 <elliott> you win this time, THE ALAN DIPERT
19:05:07 <Gregor> elliott: 'snot up for me.
19:05:14 <elliott> Ooh, I think it just broke again.
19:07:15 <elliott> Gregor: Has it been down long enough to complain yet?
19:08:07 <elliott> I FEEL A CRITICAL 9 SHORTAGE RIGHT NOW
19:08:35 <elliott> ais523: DO WE EVEN HAVE ANY 9S ANY MORE
19:09:27 <olsner> oh my, are we looking for ALAN DIPERT again?
19:09:56 <nortti> @tell nortti does this work with the sender beign the same as receiver
19:10:41 -!- nortti has changed nick to nortti_.
19:11:20 <nortti_> when does lambdabot inform about new messages?
19:11:20 <lambdabot> nortti_: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:12:00 -!- nortti_ has changed nick to nortti.
19:14:11 -!- nortti has changed nick to nortti_.
19:14:51 <elliott> nortti_: When you first talk after either joining or not speaking for ages
19:14:58 <elliott> (Changing nick also counts as joining)
19:15:24 -!- nortti_ has changed nick to nortti.
19:15:33 <olsner> so if you join and don't say anything, you don't get notified?
19:16:08 <elliott> Gregor: It's still down :'(
19:17:11 <Gregor> elliott: Now I have to go look up that conversation in the logs X-D
19:17:17 <Gregor> C obsessively turning everything into 9s.
19:17:31 <elliott> _Two_ shimmering altars of Xom???
19:18:49 <nortti> Gregor: what conversation
19:20:57 <Gregor> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-03-08#011843elliott
19:21:38 <elliott> ais523: centaurs are assholes
19:21:55 <ais523> elliott: wait until you meet yaktaurs
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19:22:15 <elliott> are those like centaurs but instead of horse it's a yak
19:22:24 <elliott> i think i might have met one already actually
19:23:21 <Gregor> Very much like "cen" is Latin for "horse", "yak" is Latin for "yak".
19:23:32 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:23:43 <elliott> `addquote <Gregor> Very much like "cen" is Latin for "horse", "yak" is Latin for "yak".
19:23:46 <HackEgo> 845) <Gregor> Very much like "cen" is Latin for "horse", "yak" is Latin for "yak".
19:23:52 <elliott> Gregor: it's roguelikes, all their monsters are goofy
19:25:36 <Gregor> Since when does clog have ops, btw?
19:27:10 <nortti> c2bf project status: moved actual code out of stdio.h, discovered string.h which made writing c2bf-cpp much easier, wrote very simple c2bf-libc and made it it's own makefile which compiles c2bf-libc to object code and updated wrapper to automaticaly run c2bf-cpp and link executables with c2bf-libc if command line argument -libc is present
19:27:18 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:27:28 <elliott> nortti: It would be about 10x easier to just finish gcc-bf.
19:27:57 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
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19:28:04 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:29:11 <nortti> elliott: where can I find gcc-bf?
19:29:36 <nortti> also esolangs.org seems to be down al lest for me
19:30:34 <Gregor> nortti: elliott has decided to take it down as a show over power.
19:30:45 <Gregor> We must give penance for him to bring it back.
19:31:01 -!- Gregor has set topic: All hail elliott, lord of the wiki | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:31:26 <elliott> I once deleted a valuable esolang... JUST BECAUSE I COULD
19:31:30 <elliott> Then I removed the deletion log entry from the database.
19:32:15 <elliott> Oh, a "potion of porridge" is just... porridge.
19:32:41 <Gregor> elliott: It should make you barf porridge.
19:32:48 <elliott> nortti: YOU WILL NEVER KNOW.
19:33:24 <Gregor> Wait, where's Schrodilang?!?!
19:39:00 <Gregor> Ohlook, esolangs.org is back up.
19:39:12 <elliott> https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3931 "Summary: BEES"
19:39:22 <Gregor> Well I guess it just loves me then.
19:41:20 * elliott drafts an email to THE ALAN DIPERT.
19:41:46 <Gregor> To: THE ALAN DIPERT <THE ALAN DIPERT@THE ALAN DIPERT>
19:41:50 <Gregor> Subject: THE ALAN DIPERT
19:42:47 <elliott> Can people try to ping esolangs.org's nameservers to see if they're up?
19:42:55 <elliott> Just want to make sure I can blame afraid ;)
19:43:35 <Gregor> All are unpingable, but to be fair, that may be normal.
19:43:45 <elliott> Gregor: Well, send them a DNS request for themselves, then.
19:44:08 <elliott> Gregor: Are you sure that's not cached?
19:44:18 -!- boily has joined.
19:44:38 <Gregor> I didn't know how to ask dig to do the right thing.
19:46:43 <elliott> "You occasionally shout uncontrollably."
19:47:00 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Quit: reboot).
19:51:14 <olsner> ;; connection timed out; no servers could be reached
19:54:44 <elliott> how could anyone upvote that ridiculously stupid answer?!
19:57:16 <olsner> which ridiculously stupid answer?
19:57:48 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10286680/how-to-create-typeclass-instances-of-a-promoted-type; the answer that isn't mine.
19:58:06 <olsner> oh, yours is not the stupid answer?
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20:01:49 <HackEgo> 806) <oklofok> you tell us you're making a lisp interpreter, but you don't mention its polterchrist is c++ templates? <oklofok> isn't that like telling us you're taking a bath and not mentioning you're bathing in a WORLD FULL OF SNAKES
20:02:31 <ais523> http://www.ioccc.org/years.html
20:02:38 <ais523> Gregor: your moment to shine!
20:02:43 <elliott> ais523: you're like a week late
20:03:28 <elliott> but I'd expect nothing less from you ;)
20:04:47 <elliott> ais523: hey, what do you do when there's a jelly, an orc wizard, and an orc?
20:05:53 <ais523> orc wizards are not top priority if their LoS is blocked, plain orcs are reasonably wimpy
20:06:50 <olsner> did you come up with "the Cutter Kobold of Trog"?
20:07:04 <elliott> it's "the Cutter: Kobold of Trog"
20:07:04 <olsner> or is that provided by the game?
20:07:11 <elliott> well, I decided to be a kobold berserker
20:07:15 <elliott> which means that I worship trog
20:07:21 <elliott> and the cutter thing advances as you go through the game
20:07:27 <elliott> but no, I didn't pick the phrase specifically
20:09:01 <elliott> ais523: hmm, maybe I can melee the jelly, escaping the wizard's line of sight, and then hand of trog+berk the orcs
20:09:20 <olsner> I think it's bath o'clock now (or 5-10 minutes past)
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20:10:59 <elliott> thanks for the reassurance, ais523 :P
20:11:34 <ais523> elliott: I often keep a backup weapon for jelly-killing
20:11:48 <ais523> typically a weapon that's good but strictly worse than my main weapon
20:11:49 <elliott> i just realised, thanks :P
20:11:59 <elliott> actually, my backup weapon is a bit worse than my main weapon
20:12:03 <elliott> err, I'll just ruin my main weapon
20:15:29 <Gregor> <ais523> Gregor: your moment to shine! // feel free to praise me even though you're late
20:15:43 <ais523> I praised you already!
20:15:47 <ais523> back when the winners were announced
20:15:55 <Gregor> Read the code THEN praise me.
20:16:02 <Gregor> So you know what you're praising!
20:16:05 <ais523> but, hmm, I'll have to think of something even more creative for next year, and I'm out of ideas
20:16:07 <ais523> and I'd seen the code already
20:16:54 <elliott> now it's jelly + orc priest + orc wizard
20:17:54 <elliott> holy shit, this is like orcsville
20:18:27 <Gregor> Orcsville, the newest game by whatever dumbshits made Farmville.
20:21:38 <elliott> ais523: is henkaure scary? not in learbdb
20:22:13 <ais523> elliott: has spells that can be very nasty for a starting character if he uses them, or quite an advanced character because they scale; does bad stuff to you if you kill him
20:22:17 <ais523> run if you can, is simplest
20:22:39 <elliott> I think I can, but it'll be quite difficult to explore this level if he's around
20:22:45 <elliott> downtime so far, btw: 18:58 --> 20:21
20:22:55 <elliott> ais523: also, I can get MR easily
20:23:18 <ais523> elliott: so long as you don't run out of piety
20:23:26 <elliott> ais523: I sacrifice a /lot/ of corpses
20:23:26 <ais523> not a risk unless you really abuse it, I think
20:23:40 <elliott> well, I use it pretty much every time I come across an orc wizard
20:23:44 <elliott> and I've never lost the ability to do it, ever
20:24:03 <elliott> Your +0,+0 mace glows black for a moment.
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20:34:34 <elliott> ais523: btw, who wrote "They say that the Orb of Zot exists deep, deep down but nobody ever got it."?
20:34:58 <ais523> elliott: some of the developers, because they were afraid people wouldn't understand the object of the game
20:35:06 <ais523> the message is randomized, there's a bunch of them, none are any good
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20:40:01 <elliott> ais523: well, badness is one thing
20:40:12 <elliott> ais523: "but nobody ever got it" is badness at a professional level
20:40:21 <elliott> how many of the devs are non-native speakers?
20:48:40 <elliott> ais523: btw, ##crawl *is* scary, right?
20:49:04 <ais523> mostly it's just boring
20:49:21 <elliott> i have this vision of a silent channel judging me for being a terrible player
20:49:44 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
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20:50:38 <elliott> what if it's a channel filled with 20 monqys
20:50:42 <elliott> i don't know if i can handle that much monqy
20:51:45 <elliott> Ohh -- that'll teach me not to read the original question thoroughly 8^( – comingstorm 6 mins ago
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21:17:49 <elliott> ais523: Gregor: does esolangs.org work for you yet?
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21:20:51 <ais523> elliott: it was slower than normal but loaded in around 5s
21:20:54 <elliott> You feel as though Xom is toying with you.
21:20:54 <elliott> _Suddenly, the walls become transparent!
21:21:03 <elliott> ais523: how can that happen if I don't worship Xom???
21:21:19 <ais523> are you sure you don't worship Xom?
21:21:26 <elliott> # #.....##..+ +..... #+# ...# Kobold of Trog **....
21:21:31 <ais523> either that, or they've decided to make him poke in from time to time anyway
21:21:39 <ais523> alternatively, did you anger Xom?
21:21:44 <ais523> angry Xom acts much like happy Xom
21:22:24 <elliott> I don't recall doing anything to anger Xom, although I'm probably pretty boring
21:22:27 <elliott> "Xom cannot be prayed to, has no conducts, and accepts no sacrifices. He is not so much worshipped as he is experienced."
21:22:34 <elliott> "When Xom is in a bad mood he gives you random mutations and when he's in a good mood he gives you good mutations. As a result Xom worshippers will typically have good mutation sets or be dead."
21:23:50 <elliott> actually, the main reason I'm afraid to join ##crawl is that they already know how bad I am
21:24:03 <elliott> except they think I'm even worse than I am, since I got better since then
21:24:15 <ais523> elliott: Xom is no longer mutation-heavy, they moved that stuff to Jiyva
21:24:41 <elliott> (monqy spammed a bunch of my deaths to the TV bot)
21:30:00 <elliott> 22:29 <Henzell> sheep[1/3]: Not even sorear has died to this one yet. These crafty beasts have managed to outwit lemuel 2 times!
21:30:05 * elliott tries to work out what "not even sorear" implies
21:31:12 <elliott> ais523: hmm, is there a command like autoexplore but that just walks around randomly instead?
21:32:51 <ais523> it doesn't seem massively useful
21:33:17 <ais523> I think TAEB has a behaviour for doing that, though
21:33:26 <ais523> as a final fallback in Behavioral
21:33:54 <elliott> ais523: it'd be useful for grinding
21:34:08 <elliott> I want to train my sword skills before descending lower, but have explored everywhere already
21:34:16 <elliott> so I just want to run into monsters a lot
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21:44:54 <ais523> elliott: that doesn't work in Crawl, the game's intentionally balanced to stop you doing that
21:45:17 <elliott> ais523: no, my short blades level was below my experience level
21:45:26 <ais523> the monsters are too wimpy to give good exp for a while, then they spawn too slowly to give you food, then it spawns massively out of depth stuff to kill you
21:45:55 <ais523> skill points are split between skills
21:46:11 <ais523> so if you want a higher short blades skill, you should have been focusing it earlier
21:46:29 <ais523> and you won't get enough exp to make a meaningful training of it without going lower
21:46:55 <elliott> ais523: I couldn't focus it earlier
21:46:57 <elliott> I didn't have a short blade
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21:48:09 <elliott> gah, there should be something to stop you butchering things you can't eat
21:49:57 <ais523> <elliott> I didn't have a short blade <--- Crawl Light fixes this!
21:50:21 <olsner> "<elliott> i don't know if i can handle that much monqy" <-- maybe you can handle the monqy, but can you handle the hi?
21:50:30 <elliott> monqy is uncorrelated with hi
21:50:49 <ais523> elliott: it lets you focus a skill even if you have no way of training it
21:50:57 <ais523> and exp gets funneled into it nonetheless
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21:51:02 <elliott> ais523: that's unrealistic!
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22:02:26 <elliott> fwiw: total downtime was 18:58 to 21:17
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22:12:04 <elliott> ais523: how come mimics are so bloody strong?!
22:13:12 <ais523> because you can run away!
22:14:39 <elliott> hmm, I see what monqy meant about anti-Crawl bias now
22:15:32 <ais523> I'm pretty biased/cynical/jaded about it
22:15:36 <elliott> no, he mentioned it from me, but you're where I got it from :)
22:15:59 <ais523> elliott: I /want/ to like Crawl, I just can't
22:16:55 <ais523> oh, good, they used "inept mimic"?
22:17:07 <elliott> it almost killed me, so it's not very inept after all
22:17:13 <ais523> they named that just a few days ago, I talked them out of using "playful", or something equally awful
22:17:13 <elliott> or at least, less inept than I am
22:17:28 <elliott> ais523: must have been, like, a day before I started playing
22:17:30 <elliott> since I've had them all the time
22:17:53 <elliott> ais523: I suppose "trunk" really is trunk :)
22:18:07 <ais523> depends on how long it is since the last release
22:18:15 <elliott> I only play it because monqy told me to
22:20:50 <elliott> and no convenient corridor
22:22:35 <elliott> ais523: hey, can you build walls in Crawl?
22:24:06 <ais523> I think there are summoning spells that create temporary immobile monsters, but they're really high-level
22:31:02 <elliott> 23:30 <Henzell> iron devil[1/1]: Lots of resistances, but slow and doesn't hit as hard as you would expect. Almost completely ignorable 4. Not even worth killing in the Hells, but be careful if it shows up on D:7 or something (and isn't across lava).
22:33:07 <elliott> ais523: so are inept mimics new?
22:33:37 <ais523> they decided they wanted more mimics, and so created a weak version to put on earlier levels
22:34:17 <elliott> ais523: I hate the devs already
22:38:49 <elliott> ais523: does Crawl ever use bold white?
22:39:04 <elliott> (and if not, are there any other reasons to use brightness, not bold, for ANSI bold?)
22:40:03 <ais523> elliott: I'm not sure, but I expect so
22:40:11 <ais523> but it'd be using it /for/ brightness
22:40:20 <elliott> yes, but I just set white to the same colour as bright white
22:41:03 <elliott> ugh, I'm too used to the terrible rendering of Menlo 13pt to use anything else now
22:44:25 <elliott> ais523: anyway, I'm going to send an email to THE ALAN DIPERT now
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23:10:23 <elliott> Gregor: This PNG is too big :'(
23:11:23 -!- monqy has joined.
23:16:00 <monqy> another elli- person i see
23:16:08 <elliott> monqy: i: played crawl more, & died more; but: the deaths weren't interesting these times
23:16:13 <shachaf> monqy: hi can i speak with elliotts
23:20:13 <monqy> elliott: did you get anywhere
23:20:21 <monqy> shachaf: what does that mean
23:20:29 <elliott> monqy: Nowhere of interest.
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23:22:31 <elliott> monqy: also wowe ais523 really hates crawl
23:22:51 <monqy> depending on what you mean by really, hates, crawl
23:23:10 <elliott> i think he's almost certainly worse
23:23:29 <elliott> his answer to every single Crawl-related question involved making Crawl look as hopelessly bad as possible
23:23:47 <shachaf> Why does ais523 hate Crawl?
23:23:49 <elliott> "is X or Y better" "who knows, it probably depends on 500 stats and nested dice rolls!"
23:23:59 <elliott> "how should I handle this monster" "run away, like everything else"
23:25:14 <elliott> monqy: ps is crawl light better
23:25:18 <elliott> ais said yes but he's biased
23:25:38 <elliott> also if i join ##crawl will they remember that time you played all my really bad muck deaths ;___;
23:26:17 <elliott> shachaf: Can you the DNS SOA entry for esolangs.org?
23:26:21 <elliott> I don't want to put my email there.
23:26:48 <monqy> elliott: crawl light has some noble goals but afaik it hasn't branched far enough to be substantially better oh wait no I take that back
23:26:58 <monqy> elliott: it got rid of item identification
23:27:01 <monqy> elliott: a big plus
23:27:12 <monqy> I think it's also working on getting rid of food?
23:27:26 <elliott> i don't like how you can train things without
23:27:46 <monqy> crawl used to force you to use your skills to train them
23:27:49 <monqy> trust me it's better now
23:28:06 <elliott> in crawl i can't train short blades without having had a short blade or whatever
23:28:10 <elliott> but apparently in crawl light you can
23:28:15 <elliott> and i think that's a bit silly
23:28:29 <monqy> also probably ##crawl won't remember your muck deaths but even if they do they won't care
23:28:47 <monqy> I forget how crawl light's experience system works
23:29:49 <elliott> monqy: can you be esolangs.org's SOA email
23:29:56 <shachaf> elliott: Can I the DNS SOA entry?
23:30:11 <monqy> i can't do that :(
23:30:25 <monqy> 21:24:41: <elliott> (monqy spammed a bunch of my deaths to the TV bot)
23:30:25 <monqy> 21:24:43: <elliott> (to view them)
23:30:25 <monqy> 21:24:46: <elliott> (in ##crawl)
23:30:26 <shachaf> Oh, you want to put my email address there?
23:30:29 <elliott> monqy: all you have to do is forward any messages about it to me!!!!!!!
23:30:29 <monqy> elliott: i didn't spam them in ##crawl
23:30:37 <elliott> someone in ##crawl noticed anyway
23:30:45 <elliott> <bold>same thing</bold> i can't do bold on this client
23:31:01 <monqy> i spammed them in private message but i queued it after some stuff people were watching on tv so
23:33:33 <monqy> 22:22:35: <elliott> ais523: hey, can you build walls in Crawl?
23:33:41 <monqy> tomb card in escape decks can make temporary walls
23:36:22 <elliott> Come on, someone has to want to be my SOA.
23:36:25 -!- Patashu has joined.
23:36:29 <elliott> Gregor! You must want to be my SOA.
23:36:40 <monqy> also scariest thing about ##crawl for you would probably be people mistabcompleting you/elliptic
23:36:44 <shachaf> elliott: What does an SOA do?
23:36:56 <elliott> monqy: are there any other ellis in ##crawl
23:37:18 <elliott> shachaf: Responds to emails about the domain.
23:37:20 <monqy> there's just elliptic he's a regular and also a dev
23:37:27 <shachaf> elliott: What kind of emails.
23:37:35 <elliott> shachaf: Uhh, none, really.
23:37:56 <elliott> monqy: But if there was another then people couldn't blame me for ruining tab complete.
23:38:34 <monqy> get ellisonch to join with you
23:38:40 <shachaf> elliott: Does it allow me to steal the domain name if I get malicious about it?
23:39:19 <elliott> you could lie to people who ask about the domain
23:39:44 <shachaf> Like saying "hi monqy" to them?
23:40:37 <shachaf> Just use your email address.
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23:46:37 <pikhq> elliott: SIXTH. Find.
23:46:54 <elliott> i'll let you know that the only copies on sprunge are old
23:46:58 <elliott> and have a bug (that i know how to fix tho)
23:47:07 <pikhq> I'm merely curious is all.
23:47:16 <pikhq> I'm doing my own nastiness. :P
23:47:26 <pikhq> Well, it should be. It's in 512 bytes and x86.
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23:47:33 <elliott> no, uglier than you're imagining
23:47:41 <elliott> i invented my own word encoding
23:47:53 <elliott> and theres a separate compiler and interpreter
23:47:56 <elliott> except only the latter works
23:48:53 <elliott> 2011-11-10.txt:00:27:26: <elliott> ais523: goes through sprunge pastes I made in 2011-{03,04,09} and prints out the ones that contain "push 0xB800", which was one of the first lines of my Forth bootsector code
23:48:57 <elliott> ah, I can reuse my 2011 effort to find it
23:49:26 <shachaf> What Forth bootsector code?
23:49:34 <elliott> pikhq: btw, I think it should be possible to fit a "TC but for memory" forth in the 510 bytes
23:49:39 <elliott> pikhq: but it will be very very difficult
23:49:49 <pikhq> shachaf: Elliott wrote a Forth in a bootsector.
23:49:50 <elliott> I size-optimised the hell out of everything and it still pushed up against the limit with only a few basic words
23:49:56 <elliott> it wasn't really a Forth, it was something that could become a Forth :)
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23:50:13 <pikhq> elliott: No kidding; you'd want a truly ridiculous word encoding.
23:50:40 <pikhq> Well, actually. That itself might not be a big deal. What you would want is some really ridiculous primitives.
23:50:49 <elliott> pikhq: the word encoding was simple enough
23:51:01 <elliott> it just allowed for very few characters, and packed them together
23:51:11 <elliott> it didn't allow mixing alpha+numeric
23:51:16 <elliott> one bit was reserved for denoting whether the thing was a number or not
23:51:23 <shachaf> elliott: 446 bytes, please.
23:51:35 <elliott> a word could be like 5 characters in the end, IIRC
23:51:51 <pikhq> elliott: Microsoft, in their infinite wisdom, stick the partition table in the boot sector.
23:52:11 <pikhq> You can and should freely ignore this on floppy disks.
23:52:27 <lambdabot> http://io.smashthestack.org:84/intro/
23:52:35 <elliott> right, no partition table on floppies
23:52:36 <pikhq> Or if you are writing a *volume* boot record, not a master boot record.
23:53:07 <pikhq> A normal MBR will just grep for the active partition and chain load the first sector of that.
23:53:12 <elliott> i didn't link to the sprunge i found
23:53:15 <elliott> however i can just run the script again
23:53:56 <elliott> katia:logs elliott$ for x in $(grep 'elliott>.*http://sprunge\.us/' 2011-0{3,4,9}-??.txt | sed 's/.*\(http[^ ]\+\).*/\1/g;'); do if curl -sS "$x" | grep -c 'bits 16' >/dev/null; then echo "$x"; fi; done
23:53:56 <elliott> curl: (6) Could not resolve host: 2011-03-09.txt:21:43:04; nodename nor servname provided, or not known
23:53:56 <elliott> curl: (6) Could not resolve host: <elliott>; nodename nor servname provided, or not known
23:53:59 <elliott> any ideas how to fix that?
23:55:13 <elliott> pikhq: i assign you since you're the one getting me to do it :)
23:56:40 <pikhq> Abuh? That... *should* work.
23:57:09 <pikhq> Maybe remove that semicolon after g? Otherwise, though, ?
23:58:21 <shachaf> Maybe look at the output and see what's going on?
23:59:20 <elliott> pikhq: i suspect it's some gnu extension
23:59:35 <elliott> removing semicolon didn't work
00:00:46 <elliott> pikhq: heh, that first paste is some of it
00:00:59 <shachaf> I didn't say *I* wanted to look at the output. I probably wouldn't use sed for this in the first place.
00:01:29 <elliott> shachaf: Feel free to write a non-sed equivalent!
00:01:41 <pikhq> elliott: That looks POSIXly correct is the thing.
00:01:52 <elliott> Well, OS X is not always POSIXly corect :P
00:01:58 <pikhq> It's POSIX certified.
00:02:23 <pikhq> And with the POSIX subsystem that is almost never installed, it actually acts like it. :P
00:02:51 <elliott> pikhq: Here's one of the latest versions of it: http://sprunge.us/OYVO
00:03:03 <elliott> I fixed the bug at one point, but I'd have to think a bit to remember what the problem is.
00:03:07 <elliott> (You can see it in the comment towards the end.)
00:03:39 <elliott> Explanation of the comment header things: "RESERVES" means it wants a specific value for them that you can never change ever and must be set up at the start.
00:03:45 <elliott> (Or it uses them for persistent state.)
00:03:57 <elliott> The macro swap exchanges the stack stack and call stack pointers.
00:04:13 <elliott> rword is the interactive read-a-word-from-the-terminal procedure.
00:04:40 <elliott> fword takes a packed word name and tries to find the corresponding subroutine address.
00:06:34 <elliott> pikhq: Anyway, feel free to play around with it; it should work as-is.
00:06:49 <elliott> But there's that bug. So if you want to use the \ word, you'll have to ask me to remember what the bug was and how to solve it.
00:07:27 <elliott> I believe it involved the fact that @ is encoded as 0, and I believe my solution was to make sure I only give up _after_ passing a 0, not when I reach one.
00:07:35 <elliott> (Requiring @ to be kept last, of course.)
00:09:46 <elliott> pikhq: Also, do you want to be my SOA email?
00:16:27 <shachaf> pikhq: Remember the time that elliott refused to be in the channel until you were kicked?
00:18:18 <elliott> pikhq: I'm setting up DNS for esolangs.org.
00:19:18 <pikhq> What, and you can't use your own?
00:19:42 <elliott> Also my email address is rubbish. :(
00:20:55 <shachaf> pikhq: Do I typically say things in #esoteric to annoy people?
00:22:26 <Gregor> elliott: tenminutemail ;)
00:22:41 <elliott> Gregor: It has to last longer than ten minutes!!!
00:22:55 <Gregor> elliott: twentyminutemail?
00:27:36 <elliott> http://sprunge.us/SYUJ I remember this.
00:31:43 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/posts/10289914/revisions Well, that lasted 9 minutes.
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00:48:01 <elliott> Gregor: What's the best domain name?
00:51:53 <elliott> pikhq: So does that thing actually assemble and run correctly?
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01:16:42 <Gregor> Creation Date: 2011-04-28T17:45:54.0Z
01:16:42 <Gregor> Last Updated On: 2012-04-24T01:06:36.0Z
01:17:22 <itidus20> that abizern guy has quite a high reputation
01:17:27 <elliott> Gregor: Not necessarily...
01:18:03 <elliott> I have almost as much rep as him.
01:20:55 <itidus20> yeah... "thats" what i take out of it..
01:39:23 <HackEgo> 821) <shachaf> elliott: Apparently Rowan Williams is Primate of All England. <shachaf> CHECKMATE CREATIONISTS
01:39:35 <HackEgo> 252) <ais523> gah, why does lose keep winning?
01:39:35 <HackEgo> 436) <Gregor> oklopol: Why do you have so much experience with hoop-and-stick? :P <oklopol> Gregor: my fetish: learning pointless skills
01:42:09 <itidus20> a little.. i hide behind hackego a bit
01:43:18 <elliott> shachaf: Should I register esolangs.org@gmail.com or something to receive esolangs.org mail. :(
01:43:36 <shachaf> elliott: How about: dns@esolangs.org?????
01:43:52 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
01:43:52 -!- ellisonch has joined.
01:43:55 <elliott> shachaf: That would (a) require me to set up esolangs.org mail (b) defeat the point since the SOA person is meant to be the technical contact about the domain.
01:44:07 <elliott> Technical contact could include asking me why the domain's email is broken.
01:44:26 <shachaf> What if defeating the point *is* the point?
01:44:43 <elliott> You really can't turn off the irritating, can you.
01:44:47 <monqy> that was a normal hello
01:44:52 <elliott> monqy: is anybody talking about things in ##crawl this is important
01:45:09 <monqy> ##crawl is usually at least somewhat active
01:45:13 <monqy> now is no exception
01:45:22 <elliott> ok are they talking about something that you have anything at all to say about
01:45:36 <monqy> i usually don't pay attention that's how active it is
01:45:42 <shachaf> elliott: To be fair, you started it with an irritating request which you made over and over again.
01:45:46 <shachaf> ASCII silly question, get a silly ANSI
01:45:54 <elliott> shachaf: Hey, I only asked that one like twice.
01:46:07 <elliott> I only Unicode Little Endian silly question.
01:46:14 <shachaf> But how many times did you ask isomorphic questions?
01:46:25 <Sgeo> What question did elliott ask?
01:46:26 <shachaf> elliott: Don't be nonsense, please. There's "Unicode" and "Unicode Big Endian".
01:46:40 <monqy> 18:46:00 -!- itidus20 [~itidus21@120.148.51.163] has joined ##crawl
01:46:58 <elliott> ##crawl, what a great channel, never going to join ##crawl
01:47:06 <monqy> just join it it's not scary
01:47:21 <elliott> 02:46 <monqy> 18:46:00 -!- itidus20 [~itidus21@120.148.51.163] has joined ##crawl
01:47:39 <monqy> it won't be suspicious
01:48:10 <itidus20> "<crate> since i will have to apport all my arrows to not attract even more spiders as i go to fetch them"
01:50:34 <elliott> I bet I'll join ##crawl and then shachaf will immediately say something stupid to me.
01:51:01 <shachaf> elliott: You're the one who's been highlighting my name in this channel for the past N minutes.
01:51:17 <elliott> 02:46 <shachaf> elliott: Don't be nonsense, please. There's "Unicode" and "Unicode Big Endian".
01:51:24 <elliott> Looks like a highlight to me!!!!!
01:52:15 <itidus20> shachaf well i highlighted you once with a quote
01:52:30 <itidus20> actually i highlighted elliott also with the same quote
01:52:38 <shachaf> itidus20: Are you Primate of all #Esoteric?
01:53:23 <itidus20> well i believe in the possibility of evolutionary creationism :P
01:55:19 <itidus20> the creator may have simply written some self-modifying lazy evaluating cellular automaton
01:55:50 <itidus20> im not clear that self modifying is approriate therethough
01:58:48 <itidus20> the jungian myth would suggest man is required to initiate the lazy evaluation... i dunno if i should be reading this book
02:07:57 <itidus20> yeah who knows what i will come up with next in my inane rambling.. ok i will roll the quotes
02:08:12 <HackEgo> 747) <zzo38> Even the Spanish Inquisition is in this game. <ais523> zzo38: was it unexpected? <zzo38> Kind of...
02:08:15 <HackEgo> 168) <fizzie> (I've just been playing with myself.)
02:08:23 <HackEgo> 592) <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Sort of a monadic human centipede.
02:09:43 <itidus20> 3 quotes. 5 highlights. 0 double highlights.
02:10:39 <itidus20> yeahhhhh... im just gonna stop talking
02:21:19 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Mon Apr 23 19:21:18 2012
03:01:00 <qfr> [03:55:20] <itidus20> the creator may have simply written some self-modifying lazy evaluating cellular automaton
03:01:05 <qfr> Yes, his name is Stephen Wolfram
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03:32:55 * tswett ponders The Cynic Project.
03:33:56 <tswett> I'm guessing that TCP's Alex Smith is not the same as our Alex Smith, given that TCP's Alex Smith went to the University of Minnesota and is now working in NYC.
03:40:20 <Sgeo> Dear Chrome: Please stop asking me to kill the goproblems page
03:40:24 <Sgeo> It doesn't need killing
03:42:36 <Sgeo> Ok, maybe it does
03:45:11 <shachaf> You people like golfing, right? Any ideas about this snippet (from another channel)? for(p=q.width=1117,(c=q.getContext('2d')).drawImage(this,0,e=0);p;)e+=String.fromCharCode(c.getImageData(--p,0,1,1).data[0]);top.eval(e)
04:03:33 <shachaf> The code that it decompresses uses variables like "y".
04:03:46 <shachaf> And this is running in the context of an img.
04:06:12 <shachaf> Because it runs in the wrong context.
04:06:20 <shachaf> Amusingly, (1,eval)(e) works correctly.
04:08:46 <shachaf> http://perfectionkills.com/global-eval-what-are-the-options/
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04:35:03 <shachaf> elliott: OK, the "top" is gone.
05:01:57 <shachaf> elliott: For what it's worth, down to with(q.getContext('2d'))for(p=q.width=1115,drawImage(this,0,e=0);p;)e+=String.fromCharCode(getImageData(--p,0,1,1).data[0]);eval(e)
05:02:55 <shachaf> You need a pretty big number before that saves a whole three byts.
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05:31:39 <pikhq> I think you can make that a bit shorter with while(drawImage(this,0,e=0),p=q.width=1115)
05:32:24 <pikhq> I am apparently incapable of making good suggestions tonight, so I shall refrain.
05:32:59 <elliott> shachaf: What's it at now?
05:34:01 <pikhq> Oh, BTW, I totally got my bootloader working.
05:34:39 <pikhq> My issue was simple: ds is uninitialised when you enter the bootloader, and lgdt indexes off the code segment when in real mode.
05:35:00 <shachaf> elliott: I think it's about the same.
05:35:01 <pikhq> Well, I suppose it does in protected mode too, but who uses non-flat memory in protected mode?
05:35:33 <elliott> shachaf: with(q.getContext('2d'))for(p=r.width=1115,drawImage(q,0,e=0);r;)e+=String.fromCharCode(getImageData(--p,0,1,1).data[0]);eval(e)
05:35:53 <elliott> Oh, wait, q =/= q.getContext('2d').
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06:34:46 <elliott> with(q.getContext('2d'))for(p=q.width=1115,drawImage(this,0,e=0);p;)eval(e+=String.fromCharCode(getImageData(--p,0,1,1).data[0])
06:35:25 <shachaf> elliott: That evals it at every iteration of the loop?
06:39:32 <elliott> with(q.getContext('2d'))for(p=q.width=1115,drawImage(this,0,e=0);p;)(p?void:eval)(e+=String.fromCharCode(getImageData(--p,0,1,1).data[0])
06:39:57 <elliott> with(q.getContext('2d'))for(p=q.width=1115,drawImage(this,0,e=0);p+1;)(p?void:eval)(e+=String.fromCharCode(getImageData(--p,0,1,1).data[0])
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06:42:27 <elliott> for(x=q.getContext('2d'),p=q.width=1115,drawImage(x,0,e=0);p;)e+=String.fromCharCode(x.getImageData(--p,0,1,1).data[0]);eval(e)
06:44:47 <elliott> for(x=q.getContext('2d'),p=q.width=1115,x.drawImage(x,0,e=0);p;)e+=String.fromCharCode(x.getImageData(--p,0,1,1).data[0]);eval(e)
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07:29:45 <Sgeo> ...The Vatican Secret Archives don't seem to be very secret
07:30:35 <elliott> The use of the word "secret" in the title "Vatican Secret Archives" does not denote the modern meaning of confidentiality. Instead, it indicates that the archives are the Pope's personal property, not belonging to those of any particular department of the Roman Curia or the Holy See. The word "secret" was generally used in this sense as also reflected in phrases such as "secret servants", "secret cupbearer", "secret carver", much like an es
07:30:35 <elliott> teemed position of honor and regard comparable to a VIP.[3]
07:32:01 <monqy> sometimes, the bests secrets
07:32:03 <monqy> aren't secret at all
07:32:47 <coppro> monqy: did you know samus is a girl.
07:33:59 <monqy> welcome to me being on
07:34:13 <coppro> monqy: you're turned on by the sexy sexy hand
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07:34:23 <coppro> aww yeah, that feels good
07:34:29 <coppro> ... okay, clearly I need sleep
07:34:53 <monqy> as main screen i highly advise this course of action
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08:07:57 <Sgeo> Using "em" in a context where "me" would fit while talking to someone not previously exposed to Spivak pronouns is not a good idea.
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08:28:10 <olsner> oh, Spivak didn't actually invent those pronouns
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09:10:29 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Tue Apr 24 02:10:27 2012
09:10:48 <lambdabot> Local time for asiekierka is Wed Apr 25 04:10:46
09:10:55 <asiekierka> obviously my clock is completely screwed up
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10:50:31 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Tue Apr 24 03:50:30 2012
10:50:37 <elliott> monqy: you are bad at sleep
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11:29:23 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Tue Apr 24 04:29:21 2012
11:29:27 <elliott> monqy: youre running out of sleep
11:29:35 <elliott> soon there will be no sleep left
11:29:36 <monqy> school will be fun
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12:08:08 <elliott> hi Phantom_Hoover watch me play crawl
12:08:42 <elliott> telnet crawl.develz.org 345
12:08:58 <elliott> actually who knows if the xterm shit will work for you there but oh well give it a try
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12:10:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: im pausing
12:12:18 <elliott> http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc771275(v=ws.10).aspx
12:13:47 <elliott> it just makes me want to strangle you
12:13:49 <elliott> for being impossibly vague
12:13:58 <elliott> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/
12:14:10 <Lumpio-> pkgmgr probably has a repository of like
12:14:14 <elliott> conncet with telnet to crawl.develz.org, port 345
12:14:22 <Lumpio-> It's pretty bad even for Microsoft.
12:14:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Well when I say 'didn't work' I invariably mean either 'failed the same as before' or 'failed without output'.
12:14:25 <elliott> Lumpio-: but they're all microsoft packages
12:14:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ok but putty will still be a lot more pleasant
12:15:47 <Phantom_Hoover> " I believe it is legal to use PuTTY, PSCP, PSFTP and Plink in England and Wales and in many other countries,"
12:16:00 <elliott> you realise that every second you waste not being connected is
12:16:07 <elliott> a second my ttyrec grows a second longer
12:16:16 <elliott> what if i ascend with this great big ten minute hole in the middle???
12:16:22 <elliott> monqy: is ascend correct terminology
12:16:47 <monqy> i don't think there's a "correct" word
12:16:52 <monqy> ascend is good enough
12:17:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: can you see my screen
12:17:37 <elliott> ive used elfish too though sry
12:17:54 <elliott> monqy: is the cloak good, I forget
12:17:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yes precisely because of kobold camp comics
12:18:04 <monqy> have cloak is better than no cloak
12:18:11 <monqy> where by have i mean
12:18:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: dude i stole it from elves
12:18:41 <monqy> cloak goes over body armour not in place of
12:19:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: have you ever played crawl
12:20:21 <elliott> this is the boring early level it gets more fun
12:20:36 <elliott> wow what is with this iguana
12:21:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: now the best part about crawl
12:21:46 <elliott> even though the levels are huge
12:21:49 <elliott> it does all the walking and picking up for you
12:22:11 <elliott> it is impossible to hate autoexplore when the levels are this boring
12:22:43 <monqy> crawl people like autoexplore. i think it's a crutch but so long as the levels are as they are it's necessary
12:23:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you know worms
12:23:41 <elliott> in crawl worms are basically like that, except they can half kill you with one hit
12:24:40 <elliott> elves aren't the worst in this game
12:25:01 <monqy> elves happen later
12:25:04 <elliott> monqy: what is it with giant geckos lately
12:25:19 <monqy> but mostly elves are optional
12:25:51 <elliott> have you seen their priests
12:26:22 <elliott> i love scroll of random uselessness
12:28:11 <elliott> 13:28 <Henzell> eustachio[1/3]: A summoner. His name is Eustachio. You killed his favorite bat. Prepare to die. In 0.8, now found from D:4 to D:10!
12:28:18 <elliott> 13:28 <Henzell> eustachio[2/3]: In trunk, you killed his favourite rat instead.
12:28:21 <elliott> 13:28 <Henzell> eustachio[3/3]: Beware his glorious mustache! Not to be confused with pistachio.
12:30:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: welcome to orc priest
12:31:08 <Phantom_Hoover> _The hound barely misses you. The hound closely misses you.
12:36:48 <elliott> monqy: this was the plan i was on before right
12:37:18 <monqy> it was Patashu's plan not mine
12:37:32 <Patashu> oh, we playing crawl again?
12:37:41 <Patashu> I just finished a promising brogue game
12:37:47 <Patashu> a dar blademaster stepped on a paralysis trap
12:37:52 <elliott> monqy: if i want to drop one of these skills for now
12:37:55 <Patashu> and it woke up first and killed me something good
12:38:13 <monqy> dorp sbl for now maybe?
12:38:29 <monqy> why is he doing sbl anyway
12:38:31 <elliott> ill keep them all on equally
12:38:51 <elliott> "Your attack speed is very fast."
12:38:52 <monqy> Patashu: no planning for later on???
12:39:02 <Patashu> yeah, that sounds like mindelay
12:39:06 <Patashu> monqy: qblade IS planning for later on!
12:39:21 <monqy> how much slaying are you planning on
12:39:21 <elliott> i get the feeling that Patashu's plans are inferior to monqy's plasns
12:39:58 <monqy> well the thing is sbl means lots of keypresses later on if you don't have great slaying
12:40:15 <monqy> i'm not a dwhip guy, for the same reasons, but i'm more of a dwhip guy than a sbl guy, for those reasons
12:40:32 <monqy> sbl is fine for stabbing and fine if you like keypresses / have slaying
12:40:59 <Patashu> <Gretell> elliott (L8 KoBe) killed Grinder. (D:5)
12:41:18 <monqy> but i prefer big weapons or pain weapons or elemental staves or something else like that or unarmed combat
12:41:21 <Patashu> imagine if traps in crawl were like brogue traps
12:41:32 <Patashu> you'd be fighting something and suddenly POISON GAS EVERYWHERE
12:41:39 <Patashu> it took until D:6 for ijyb to spawn?
12:41:41 <elliott> uhhh how can i tell whether hes dangerous or not
12:41:56 <elliott> some ijybs are mor equal thano thers
12:42:02 <monqy> name colour isn't a great indication of how dangerous something is
12:42:06 <monqy> it gets so much stuff wrong
12:42:06 <Patashu> the only thing a unique can spawn with is different eq
12:42:13 <Patashu> well, it's right about ijyb and menkaure
12:42:54 <Patashu> that must be the orcish mines
12:42:59 <monqy> maybe not the best positioning
12:43:08 <Patashu> it was the worst positioning
12:43:36 <Patashu> heal wounds guzzling is symptomatic of bad play
12:44:07 <elliott> yeah i realised it was bad play
12:44:10 <elliott> i was trying to avoid it becoming dead play
12:44:15 <elliott> how scary are water moccasins
12:44:18 <elliott> can i take one on with 8 hp
12:44:29 <elliott> how many turns until im dead
12:44:41 <Patashu> you keep waiting until you're 1 turn from death
12:45:09 <monqy> two turns from death
12:45:11 <Patashu> you played like a bad player
12:45:18 <Patashu> can't water moccasin hit quite hard
12:45:26 <monqy> oh i'm speaking in metaphor
12:45:46 <monqy> i wasn't watching though what happened
12:45:51 <elliott> i have a wand of paralysis
12:45:54 <elliott> would that get the moccasin
12:45:59 <Patashu> really bad positioning on the orc band
12:46:00 <monqy> if it doesn't resist it
12:46:04 <Patashu> and walking around during the zerk
12:46:13 <elliott> it was a last save attempt
12:46:15 <Patashu> so wands will probably work
12:46:18 <elliott> i know exactly why everything i did was terrible
12:46:24 <Patashu> that's the important step, yes
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12:46:53 <Patashu> might want to heal isntead of o
12:47:17 <Patashu> not sending you very far today
12:47:46 <monqy> walking around at not full hp?
12:47:53 <elliott> to get to the upstairs to escape
12:47:55 <monqy> oh you were getting to the stairacs
12:48:31 <Patashu> why are you holy-shitting about easy monsters
12:48:39 <Patashu> you're long past the point in the game where jackals and imps are dangerous
12:49:03 <elliott> right, now time to do this like a non-stupid person
12:49:55 <Patashu> btw, if you hate crawl centaurs, brogue centaurs are way worse
12:50:00 <Patashu> they shoot AND try to walk away from you
12:51:36 <elliott> 13:51 <Gretell> sanka the Frost Mage (L7 MfIE), slain by elliott's ghost on D:5, with 643 points after 5672 turns and 0:13:59.
12:52:01 <elliott> wow i don't have very good piety
12:52:24 <elliott> i think ive been eating a lot and also what the hell
12:52:27 <Patashu> THIS is the staircase to the orcish mines?
12:52:35 <Patashu> everything here should be easy
12:53:12 <monqy> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
12:53:13 <Patashu> that priest is not smiting you much
12:53:24 <monqy> why isn't that priest smiting oh there it goes
12:55:38 <monqy> rest peacefully, potion of speed
12:55:52 <Patashu> you keep running into corners
12:56:31 <Patashu> I don't know why you bothered to fight it
12:56:34 <Patashu> jellies are speed 9, you're 10
12:56:38 <Patashu> you could have ran from it indefinitely
12:56:44 <Patashu> (also they hit surprisingly hard)
13:01:19 <Phantom_Hoover> im watching team roomba's videos, this is more importnat
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13:16:56 <Patashu> it won't show up on ctrl+f
13:17:05 <Patashu> (it probably should be a thing)
13:20:30 <monqy> you can use the lev potions to get into another area maybe? i forget
13:20:45 <monqy> a few sewers do that sort of stuff
13:22:25 <elliott> 14:22 <Henzell> ossuary[1/2]: An early game portal to a miniature tomb, stuffed with mummies and zombies and traps and things. The portal is timed and will eventually close on its own.
13:22:54 <elliott> (also i really want more hp soon i think i'll turn on fighting)
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13:25:05 <Patashu> everything will be slower than you
13:25:09 <Patashu> (except like zombie bats and shit)
13:25:34 <Patashu> don't drink from sparkling fountains
13:25:40 <elliott> are they like nethack fountains
13:25:49 <elliott> i won the jackpot this time
13:26:02 <Patashu> it can randomly give gain <stat> or mutation
13:26:06 <Patashu> but also degeneration, decay and strong poison
13:26:19 <Patashu> it can be situationally worth quaffing from
13:26:52 <Patashu> this is the doors vault version of ossuary
13:26:55 <elliott> before i get shit about that
13:27:00 <elliott> i really don't have time to deal with an anything centaur
13:27:05 <elliott> when i have only 43 max hp
13:27:15 <Patashu> undead centaurs can't use their ranged weapons
13:27:22 <Patashu> undead pretty much can't do shit but melee
13:27:29 <Patashu> unless they're skeletal warriors or bone dragons
13:28:01 <elliott> not kidding about this being easy
13:28:39 <Patashu> portal vaults pick from a random collection of designs
13:28:42 <Patashu> so sometimes they're insane
13:29:00 <Patashu> like, there's an ice cave that ends with a frost giant
13:29:07 <Patashu> and a bailey with an orc warlor
13:29:08 <elliott> thanks scroll of random uselessness
13:29:14 <Patashu> also, you just cast summon butterflies
13:29:21 <elliott> i read a scroll of random uselessness
13:29:51 <Patashu> then it'll go away eventually
13:30:21 <Patashu> id those potions young kobold
13:30:34 <elliott> i dont have enough for that
13:30:45 <Patashu> nice potions you're lugging around
13:30:51 <Patashu> 'hmm how am I going to get out of this situation'
13:30:57 <Patashu> 'paralysis, confusion or degeneration?'
13:31:15 <Patashu> like how baileys tend to have enchant <foo> scrolls
13:32:43 <monqy> look at your a screen
13:32:43 <Patashu> can you show me the fail rate on +blink mutation
13:33:05 <monqy> i don't think it would go up with evo
13:33:30 <elliott> like scroll of blinking???
13:33:30 <monqy> that's random blink, not the controlled blink from the scrolls
13:33:41 <Patashu> but it's still a source of blink
13:33:48 <elliott> i dont feel any great need to mutate
13:33:50 <Patashu> so don't forget you can do it
13:33:51 <monqy> if you also have teleport control you get a semicontrolled blink
13:34:06 <Patashu> scblink is seriously useful
13:34:09 <elliott> i'll get on with dying, slowly
13:34:14 <monqy> you can use your semicontrolled blink to do anything you want
13:34:32 <Patashu> see something threatening? scblink away
13:34:36 <Patashu> surrounded by melee monsters? scblink away
13:34:41 <elliott> i dont buy into this crawl startegy of
13:34:43 <Patashu> a few turns from death? scblink away (NOTE: NOT ONE TURN, MULTIPLE)
13:34:51 <Patashu> crawl is all about knowing when to run
13:34:58 <elliott> im not playing by that rule
13:34:59 <Patashu> if you want to never die maybe play pokemon mystery dungeon???
13:35:09 <elliott> no i want to be able to die because of my own stupidity
13:35:12 <elliott> not because i wasn't a coward
13:35:36 <Patashu> I think that ogre could have killed you
13:35:49 <monqy> i would definitely have blonked away after it hit that big time
13:36:00 <Patashu> and thrown darts or something
13:36:13 <monqy> it'll eat the items then split oh it didn't split yet
13:36:26 <elliott> if i switch to an alt weapon the ogre will kill me
13:36:51 <elliott> Patashu is going to tell me to throw and back away
13:36:55 <elliott> i count on monqy to steer me to the righteous path
13:37:14 <Patashu> +4 is almost entirely resistant to corrosion
13:37:58 <Patashu> lucky you didn't get hit again
13:38:09 <elliott> i hear crawl is all about luck
13:38:09 <monqy> randomized movement energy "wow fun"
13:38:10 <Patashu> you were one_turn_from_death for a while
13:38:59 <Patashu> btw if you point your blonk at a wall
13:39:05 <Patashu> it will just pick randomly
13:39:10 <Patashu> if it can't find an open tile in that direction
13:39:16 <Patashu> (found that out the hard way)
13:41:03 <Patashu> wow, even javelins are too big for kobolds
13:42:23 <Patashu> it is what we humans call sarcasm
13:42:40 <elliott> not m ypotion of coagulated blood
13:42:40 <Patashu> you pick odd directions for your scblinks
13:43:15 <monqy> east sounds like asking for it to fail
13:43:32 <Patashu> I seriously thought scblink was more reliable than that
13:43:49 <monqy> "2 turns before death: saves the day"
13:43:50 <elliott> i really really need more hp
13:44:04 <elliott> monqy says fighting gives me hp so
13:44:05 <monqy> could turn off armour and dodge
13:44:40 <monqy> or could turn off sbl and turn armour back on or w/e
13:44:44 <Patashu> wasn't that scroll recharging?
13:45:11 <elliott> not having any of that beetle's bullshit
13:45:36 <Patashu> rcurse doesn't uncurse stuff not worn
13:46:13 <Patashu> instead of trying ot kill you
13:46:16 <elliott> hes scared of my kobold fuckin power
13:46:24 <Patashu> use it to strengthen yourself
13:47:45 <Patashu> why is nothing dropping corpses
13:48:14 <elliott> why is everything such a fucking coward
13:48:29 <elliott> they're better at it than me
13:48:44 <elliott> because iwas near starving
13:50:55 <Patashu> it's not like your ghost could zerk you
13:51:15 <Patashu> the priest was late to the party
13:52:35 <elliott> orcish mines entry methinks
13:54:04 <Patashu> notice the orc wizard going all the way to the top left?
13:54:08 <Patashu> hoping to get the ranged drop on you?
13:54:12 <Patashu> crawl conspires against you like that
13:56:33 <Patashu> and that's before its weapon
13:57:00 <Patashu> you should probably bia it
13:57:26 <elliott> the alternative is running away forever
13:57:29 <elliott> it's never going to just go away
13:57:29 <Patashu> (zerk just makes it threeshot)
13:57:44 <Patashu> so you could just skip the level, or explore the rest of it, or whatever
13:57:49 <Patashu> you don't HAVE to kill everything the instant you spot it
13:57:58 <monqy> blonking away from it into a wall(thus getting blonked right into it)
13:58:19 <Patashu> that's a blink frog, I just saw
13:58:24 <Patashu> and deal with the blink frog as it comes to you
13:58:28 <Patashu> then you can worry about JUST the hill giant
13:58:58 <Patashu> kite the blink frog to you
13:59:16 <Patashu> is better than right there
13:59:19 <elliott> monqy: should i ab aa tab tab tab just wondering
14:00:38 <Patashu> I don't know what I just did
14:00:52 <Patashu> you get to pick a location
14:01:28 <elliott> going up the stairs is pointless
14:01:33 <elliott> there's nothing there, and it'll only take me a few turns to recover
14:01:49 <Patashu> well, anywhere that's Not There is fine really
14:01:53 <Patashu> go explore the rest of the level
14:02:26 <elliott> let me just kill the hill giant
14:02:57 <Patashu> hill giant (C) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 42-78 | AC/EV: 3/4 | Damage: 30 | Res: magic(44), drown | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 657.
14:03:01 <Patashu> and that's pre giant club damage
14:03:08 <Patashu> which I think makes it Damage: 50? I'm not sure how the math works tbh
14:03:14 <Patashu> if it just straight adds the damage modifier
14:04:20 <Patashu> if you could paralyze it it'd be easy
14:04:50 <elliott> kill the z, confuse the hill orc, kill it?
14:05:48 <Patashu> I don't think monqy is here
14:12:02 <Patashu> I don't think trogs would regen you fast enough to matter atm
14:12:17 <elliott> i can blink out afterwards
14:12:37 <Patashu> only one thing to od now, right
14:12:57 <Patashu> is going to be a seriois ussie
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14:13:50 <elliott> ill back away once or twice
14:14:16 <elliott> ill back away once or twice then pummel
14:14:24 <Ngevd> elliott, I'm worried, this is like the time ais523 got into Dredmor
14:17:04 <Patashu> ring of fire isn't completely a waste
14:17:16 <Patashu> against things that are fiery
14:17:18 <Patashu> I would much rather have rf+
14:17:26 <Patashu> you want a lot of rf+ for zot
14:18:10 <Patashu> but since ring of fire also gives a cold vuln I wouldn't walk around in it
14:18:34 <Patashu> you are racking those potions of curing up
14:18:40 <elliott> how strong do those trolls hit
14:18:42 <Patashu> do you know what stashing is?
14:18:50 <Patashu> troll (T) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 25-53 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Damage: 20, 15, 15 | Flags: regen | Res: magic(28) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 305.
14:18:59 <elliott> why aren't i getting more hppppp
14:19:04 <Patashu> anyway, you know how fire and ice damage can wreck your consumables?
14:19:08 -!- MDude has joined.
14:19:10 <Patashu> the more consumables you have the more likely it is to happen
14:19:18 <Patashu> so it makes sense to stash (temporarily or permanently) large quantities of consumables
14:19:20 <Patashu> leaving just a few at a time
14:19:34 <elliott> this troll scares me a bit
14:20:19 <elliott> back away from what into where
14:24:29 <Patashu> you should probably not hand if it's blatantly not needed
14:24:35 <Patashu> just so trog gives you gifts sooner/more often
14:24:40 <Patashu> who knows, you might even use one of his gifts!
14:24:43 <elliott> yeaaah i was getting a bit worried but it was probably not necessary
14:24:48 <Patashu> like if he gifts, say, a qblade of flaming or a sabre of speed
14:24:58 <elliott> why aren't i getting more hp :(
14:25:24 <Patashu> you're a tiny freaking kobold
14:26:17 <Patashu> sabre is the upgrade to short sword
14:26:21 <Patashu> until you get a quick blade
14:26:37 <Patashu> you don't even have to manually walk there
14:26:38 <elliott> better than my chain mail of cold resistance?
14:26:51 <Patashu> plate is pretty fucking sweet
14:28:07 <Patashu> also, if you swap to that sabre
14:28:12 <Patashu> get your short blades skill to 12
14:28:15 <elliott> monqy said things about sabre before
14:28:58 <elliott> 09:14 elliott: are sabres any good vs short swords
14:28:58 <elliott> 09:15 monqy: they do more damage but are a bit slower so they need more skill to get them fast
14:28:58 <elliott> 09:15 monqy: and they're a bit less accurate
14:29:36 <Patashu> he's not actually telling you anything useful
14:29:39 <Patashu> here's the actual useful information:
14:29:46 <Patashu> you want to use the heftiest weapon you can get to mindelay
14:30:07 <Patashu> for instance, 'of electrocution' does a fixed amount of damage, so no matter what it's on it owns early game
14:30:16 <elliott> "continue walking where you were"
14:30:20 <elliott> instead of searching and selecting again
14:30:34 <Patashu> the most important button in cnrawl
14:31:15 <elliott> ok now how do i make it not shit
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14:31:38 <elliott> i want enchantments and shit
14:31:48 <Patashu> also, it might already have good +s
14:31:52 <Patashu> hit things with it to find out
14:33:25 <Patashu> this is a ?heal wounds moment
14:34:59 <elliott> what is giving me so much pain
14:35:10 <Patashu> may as well do the priest first
14:35:13 <Patashu> since it rips and tears fast
14:35:41 <elliott> christ almighty on a fucking pogo stick
14:36:19 <Patashu> in most roguelikes, you can get healing potions so strong it's always the safe thing to do
14:36:21 <Patashu> crawl's are just weak enough
14:36:22 <elliott> should i add dodging to the mix?
14:36:36 <Patashu> you're wearing a buckler, right?
14:36:42 <elliott> i dont even know what a buckler is
14:36:58 <elliott> armour for your balls or something
14:37:41 <Patashu> did you change your tileset
14:38:20 <elliott> i don't want to be near that giant spore
14:38:37 <Patashu> I actually have no idea how damaging a giant spore explosion is
14:38:53 <Patashu> now you can do whatever you like
14:39:31 <elliott> take that active ballistomycete
14:39:44 <Patashu> btw, I'd like to quantify for you how much berzerk helps your melee
14:39:49 <Patashu> -you go under the effects of haste, so 1.5x as fast
14:39:55 <Patashu> -you get 1.5x whatever your hp was
14:40:12 <elliott> the HP is the main thing for me really
14:40:14 <Patashu> -you do 1d10 extra damage and have 5 extra strength (which adds a tiny bit more damage as well), as though under the effects of might
14:40:15 <elliott> since i have so damn little of it
14:40:23 <Patashu> well, it's the hp AND the haste And the damage
14:40:29 <Patashu> it stretches out what little hp you have soooooo much
14:40:31 <Patashu> as long as you use it right
14:42:34 <elliott> i really don't like how hard those trolls hit
14:42:49 <elliott> going to focus more on fighting to get that HP up
14:43:07 <Patashu> hi second hill giant of the game
14:43:33 <elliott> could lightning help me here
14:43:40 <Patashu> it wouldn't stop the troll from beating on you
14:43:59 <elliott> the only way is closer to the hill giant
14:45:00 <Patashu> and when the regen runs out
14:45:02 <Patashu> zerk or something like that
14:45:08 <elliott> how s hould i back up this way
14:45:26 <Patashu> you could pillar dance around that p on its side
14:46:18 <elliott> ahahahahahahahaahhahaahahahahaha
14:47:30 <Patashu> she's guaranteed to have curare
14:47:33 <Patashu> and likely to have a dagger of distortion
14:47:53 <Patashu> but it will cure the poison
14:48:41 <Patashu> really she's going to keep curaring you for a while
14:48:50 <elliott> i don't have that many ?curing
14:48:59 <Patashu> you don't have to cure it until she stops using it
14:50:36 -!- Gregor has set topic: Sub-channels for other interests include: #esoteric , #esoteric-minecraft , #esoteric-chess-variants , #esoteric-ponies . There, now everybody knows. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
14:51:34 <Patashu> curare doesn't make you exhausted anymore?
14:52:22 <Patashu> I don't want you to die either
14:52:29 <Patashu> then we'll see what's the haps
14:52:40 <Patashu> ! is for potions ? is for scrolls, I keep forgetting
14:53:35 <Patashu> sonja pulled ALL the stops
14:53:51 <Patashu> it'll keep you zerk longer
14:55:14 <Patashu> short sword of venom would be pretty good
14:56:53 <Patashu> (that's how it works in this game)
14:57:02 <Patashu> well, it's not corrosion resistant anymore is it
14:57:22 <elliott> any suggested adjustments?
14:57:54 <elliott> btw just out of curiosity, how far into the game would you say I am
14:58:43 <elliott> maybe up armour or shields?
14:58:51 <Patashu> what you're doing right now is fine
14:59:13 <elliott> im really concerned about how much my hp drops when fighting eg trolls though
14:59:31 <Patashu> kobe is the build that screams 'zerk everything because hunger isn't a concern'
14:59:49 <Patashu> you probably account for most cdo deaths
15:02:04 <elliott> when did orcs become so boring
15:03:33 <Patashu> wights don't do much damage
15:03:56 <Patashu> you can't unzerk out of a zerk
15:04:02 <elliott> no, but i can whack the wight
15:04:10 <Patashu> elliott about to die probably
15:04:28 <elliott> it looked worse before with wossname
15:05:10 <elliott> ok i can get past the wight in like one, two turns
15:05:14 <elliott> but phyphor is pretty damn fast
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15:06:13 <elliott> that's not very reassuring
15:06:17 <elliott> monqy: does that plan sound reasonable
15:06:17 <Patashu> and yeah you probably should have started on the wight earlier
15:06:20 <Patashu> sorry, didn't realize how tough the ghost was
15:06:42 <elliott> this is the second time i've died to phyphor today
15:07:15 <monqy> i think it was sswiftness
15:07:18 <monqy> a bit different from haste
15:08:07 <elliott> i blame Patashu for making me get that sabre
15:08:24 <Patashu> elliott's sonja was more fun than usual
15:08:28 <Patashu> she had a wand of draining
15:10:34 <elliott> Patashu: yeah, disto weapon?!?!
15:10:36 <elliott> idont actually know what that means
15:14:18 <Patashu> no, she had venom this game
15:14:23 <Patashu> (it's 50% disto 50% venom I think)
15:14:49 <monqy> nagl sounds like nacl there's just a bit of voicing off
15:14:55 <monqy> plus NaGl looks kind of like NaCl
15:15:07 <monqy> though NaCj looks kind of like NaCl too
15:19:47 <elliott> monqy: are you braodcatste
15:20:19 <Patashu> by the way, ?enchant armour strategy:
15:20:24 <Patashu> always enchant your secondary pieces of armour first
15:20:33 <Patashu> since you're less likely to swap them out for something else
15:20:53 <Patashu> also, I see al ot of pretty useful potions there
15:20:57 <Patashu> if you had known the ghost would be that tough
15:21:12 <Patashu> (hint: if you quaff might and speed, it's like a zerk without the downside of being zerk)
15:21:27 <elliott> i should have just quaffed mutation
15:21:27 <Patashu> you never id'd heal wounds?
15:21:30 <elliott> and turned into a butterfly or something
15:21:49 <elliott> so many crap potions from that tomb
15:21:54 <elliott> and was iding them all at random
15:25:13 <elliott> https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4274 wow this is such al ong topic about words
15:25:30 <elliott> i dont know why im reading it
15:27:17 <monqy> oh no are you reading tavern
15:27:21 <Patashu> when you unwield distortion it's like translocation miscast
15:27:33 <Patashu> it might do up to 43 damage
15:27:36 <Patashu> or banish you to the abyss
15:27:38 <Patashu> or it might do nothing noteworthy
15:27:46 <monqy> it's implemented as a tloc miscast
15:28:02 <monqy> it's implemented as triggering a tloc miscast effect
15:28:47 <elliott> 16:27 <monqy> oh no are you reading tavern
15:28:58 <elliott> Patashu: monqy: it eventually goes on to "lets remove distionrton thing from early game because it hurt and not good"
15:29:04 <elliott> and people going "why not remove sigmund then!!"
15:29:46 <Patashu> people being butthurt about dying in crawl
15:30:30 <elliott> monqy: whats the absolute baddest of ridiculous species/thing/god combo
15:31:20 <monqy> muck and ddak are the most popular
15:31:24 <monqy> mube used to be popular too
15:31:55 <elliott> yeah but even monqy plays muck
15:32:03 <elliott> i want something so stupid and awkward nobody even bothers doing it for laughs
15:32:22 <elliott> (so i can make my crawl goal to win that)
15:33:04 <monqy> there are a lot of things people avoid because they're bad in a boring way
15:33:07 <Patashu> since that's just plain unfun
15:33:13 <Patashu> the problem with a lot of 'bad builds' is
15:33:15 <Patashu> you can reskill out of them
15:33:19 <Patashu> and do what's actually good for the race
15:33:28 <elliott> that's why i included god in the equation
15:33:33 <monqy> like with ddak and muck if you look at them closely there's something beautiful about how bad they are
15:33:43 <elliott> preferably the god should hate all the most practical ways for your kind to survive
15:33:47 <monqy> with, say, teee, it's just "hey you're a teee"
15:34:02 <monqy> elliott: ddak sort of kind of falls into that
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15:34:11 <elliott> (i am allowing conversions)
15:34:34 <Patashu> could you, as a muck, abandon xom
15:34:41 <Patashu> would that improve your chance of winning?
15:34:46 <Patashu> or is he even worse after you abandon him
15:36:01 <elliott> monqy: (this was inspired by someone in that thread mentioning spriggan fighter of cheirbecierbcieroioaercbios as a stupid conduct)
15:36:13 <elliott> (but i don't know how bad that actually is)
15:37:52 <Patashu> assuming you're going a stabby build
15:37:57 <Patashu> since iirc chei doesn't make your stealth checks worse
15:38:25 <elliott> monqy: what about a muck switched to idk one of the annoying righteous gods
15:38:31 <elliott> i guess nothing beats xom really
15:38:37 <Patashu> mummies can't worship the good gods
15:39:22 <elliott> what if you start as something else then polymorph into a mummy post-conversion
15:40:55 <monqy> can't polymorph to undead
15:41:22 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Tue Apr 24 08:41:20 2012
15:41:57 <Patashu> you can't polymorph in crawl
15:42:01 <Patashu> but you can cast 'form' spells
15:42:07 <Patashu> if you worship a good god and deliberately cast necromutation
15:42:15 <Patashu> the good god excommunicates you
15:43:01 <elliott> huh? ive seen wands of poylmrohp
15:43:30 <Patashu> if you cast polymorph other on a monster
15:43:38 <Patashu> if a monster casts polymorph other on YOU
15:43:41 <Patashu> you get a 90% bad mutation 10% good mutation
15:43:54 <Patashu> (so if it happens often enough you get all-the-bad-mutations-all-of-them)
15:44:11 <Patashu> (btw potions of mutation are 50%, and cards of helix are 50% or better)
15:44:47 <elliott> sigh i just want a really bad creature with a god that hates it
15:46:19 <HackEgo> Europe is the national anthem of the Republic of Kosovo.
15:50:56 <Patashu> if you abandon a god or are excommunicated from it
15:51:02 <Patashu> the god brings down his wrath on you every onw and again
16:00:50 <elliott> i might try og next if i get tired of kobe
16:09:05 <Patashu> you should try mibe or hobe
16:09:27 <Patashu> ogre and troll might be good too, haven't tried them
16:10:11 <elliott> ive heard habe might be good as a beginner
16:10:26 <elliott> 17:10 <Henzell> mibe[1/1]: Press aa to win.
16:10:38 <Patashu> you know how I said kobold has -20% max hp?
16:10:53 <elliott> i was thinking about just training fighting like shit all the way through though
16:11:20 <Patashu> fighting doesn't give hp very fast until xl16
16:11:34 <Patashu> (basically, it gives one point per skill level per 8 xls)
16:11:49 <Patashu> going from kobe to mibe or hobe would be just
16:12:35 <elliott> yeaaaah but really i love kobe i just wish it had a bit more hp
16:12:40 <elliott> the solution may be just to level it up harder
16:13:29 <elliott> (a) im externally predisposed to liking kobolds more than minotaurs or hill orcs or what the fuck ever
16:13:45 <elliott> (b) forgot what this was gonna be
16:17:09 <elliott> http://ompldr.org/vZGh4YQ "You will get decimated by elven ambushes and swallowed whole by carp as you struggle just to trade for weak copper weaponry. But that's what life is like for a Kobold."
16:18:20 <elliott> Oh, there we go, http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/2965122/images/1226219247193.gif. (The image in the bay12 forum thread was broken, so I rescued Google's thumbnail.)
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16:31:34 <Gregor> Why did I list #esoteric as a sub-channel of itself ...
16:32:45 <elliott> one of those doesn't exist
16:32:50 <elliott> the other one i don't really want in the topic logged forever
16:33:04 -!- elliott has set topic: go to #esoteric-ponies ———Gregor | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
16:33:11 <elliott> (there are a bunch of spiders that crawl IRC topics for no apparent reason)
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17:29:16 <yasar> Have you ever tried dd'ing your swap partition and piping it to "strings" lots of interesting things can come up.
17:36:22 <Gregor> I personally like mplayer'ing my HDD.
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18:12:07 <oklopol> my record for consequtive minutes of watching numbthreers is 15 minutes
18:12:14 <oklopol> i'm so gonna break it today
18:15:21 <oklopol> "you can't measure an electron without changing it. therefore, if you observe a bank robberist dudde, he will change his pattern." "wooooooow slow down whatnow you know i got like a c in physics dudde? be gentle with my brain"
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18:24:42 <oklopol> whoops i didn't quite manage two minutes
18:33:20 <qfr> consecutive
18:35:20 <oklopol> also the math dudde needs to work on a 3sat to find where the bank robbersteins attack nexts.
18:35:47 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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18:42:27 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: (lesse if I can remember a decent command) mplayer -demuxer rawvideo -rawvideo w=640:h=480:fps=15:format=rgb24 /dev/sda
18:43:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I remember the mplayer thing, although I didn't try it because I wasn't about to start running commands with /dev/sda in them as root unless my paranoia was assuaged by necessity.
18:44:47 <oklopol> "you know it's considered unsolvable, right?" "well certainly people who've failed to solve it might think that, but we all know, minesweeper consistency is an np pcomplete problem"
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19:09:25 <nortti> Lumpio-: how is your os project?
19:09:54 <Lumpio-> Dead and buried since N years ago?
19:11:10 <nortti> weren't you trying to create a bootloader a few days ago?
19:11:26 <Lumpio-> I just used GRUB with mine.
19:12:27 <fizzie> nortti: pikhq was writing a bootloader the other day.
19:12:31 <Lumpio-> I don't have anything to do with putkaos
19:13:35 <ion> I slept for 17 hours.
19:13:56 <nortti> fizzie: ok. I was probably confusing him to Lumpio- for some reasom
19:14:18 <oklopol> ion: hey i did that a few weeks ago
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19:16:45 <oklopol> i like to work the night between sunday and monday so i occasionally sleep quite a bit afterward
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19:23:03 <pikhq_> The bootloader works, and I've not done more yet.
19:24:33 <nortti> pikhq_: what kind of os are you making?
19:24:57 <pikhq_> I dunno, I was partly doing a bootloader for the sake of it.
19:25:05 <pikhq_> I guess if I do anything it'll be a Forth, though.
19:26:06 <nortti> "...send back to your phone at
19:26:14 <nortti> "...send back to your phone at the speed of ninjas on jetpacks."
19:27:28 <nortti> pikhq_: by forth do you mean kernel coded in forth or a forth system?
19:29:46 <nortti> that would be interesting. Singletasking or multitasking
19:30:11 <pikhq_> Probably single-tasking for simplicity.
19:30:56 <olsner> multitasking isn't that hard though, just swap some stacks :)
19:31:27 <pikhq_> olsner: Yes, but it is strictly more effort. :P
19:32:08 <nortti> or you can also do same as I did and use co-operative multitasking. It isn't that hard as you don't have to worry about locks and re
19:34:18 <nortti> you still have to swap stacĸs though
19:49:07 <ion> A WebGL invitation to Stream (a Finnish demo party). http://byterapers.com/streamnine/invitation.html
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19:58:16 <Gregor> I love how all the results for the google doodle are always about the google doodle, and only secondarily the person it commemorates.
19:58:27 <Gregor> They should make it search for name -google
20:07:30 <coppro> I love that it actually unzips
20:08:01 <oklopol> it's google, obviously it unzips.
20:11:02 <oklopol> why would you have a zipper that doesn't work
20:50:28 <ais523> I keep forgetting which countries exist in this channel and which ones don't
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21:17:56 <nortti> where does olsner live currently
21:25:31 <nortti> what makes you think so?
21:27:43 <olsner> from where was I kidnapped?
21:28:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know, there are lots of places less terrible than Sweden.
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21:44:52 <nortti> " It's the process of taking barren, uninhabitable terrain and re-engineering it to support life. You know, like Detroit, but in reverse."
21:51:37 <Phantom_Hoover> What the shit Google and James Cameron are starting an asteroid mining company FINALLY IT IS THE FUTURE AGAIN
21:53:15 <nortti> "So it turns out the real danger of dressing androgynously is the possibility of your kid growing up to get elected president of the U.S. four times in a row."
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22:10:41 <nortti> http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2011/03/09/the-paradox-of-choice/
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00:48:50 <zzo38> I saw the message already
00:48:50 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
01:00:03 <zzo38> Yes I know, I saw this message already.
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01:15:05 <zzo38> For some categories, can you have, a fully faithful functor from that category to the free category of a subset of that category's quiver
01:15:35 <zzo38> Does this have a shorter name?
01:16:38 <zzo38> And then, if you have the variant with cancelling, does that have another name?
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01:31:13 <zzo38> Do you know what I am meaning?
01:31:52 <zzo38> Do you know about category theory?
01:31:57 <shachaf> Any idea why the BWTed version is significantly less compressible than the input in <http://sprunge.us/AiIC>?
01:35:00 <zzo38> shachaf: Does it depend what compression scheme?
01:35:24 <shachaf> In this case it's PNG (DEFLATE).
01:35:33 <shachaf> But every compression program I tried did better with the input.
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02:22:31 <zzo38> What is the most number of times you have ever retreated in a single turn in Pokemon Card? (not counting cases in which your active pokemon is confused)
02:34:25 <zzo38> As far as I remember, the most I have done is two times, although I have made a puzzle requiring three times.
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03:36:07 <ais523> zzo38: I think I've retreated hundreds of times in a turn, using two Pokémon with zero retreat cost, just because I could, not for any good reason
03:40:05 <zzo38> ais523: OK; but how many have you done for some good reason?
03:41:30 <zzo38> I have done twice sometimes in order to remove the energy from some other card, which was sometimes useful. Have you ever played an evolution card but then never used any of the evolution card's attacks or powers?
03:42:09 <zzo38> ais523: Can you make up any Pokemon Card puzzle? I made two but I would like to know if you have any, too.
03:42:43 <ais523> zzo38: not really, I'm not used to which cards are which and you wouldn't know the modern cards anyway
03:42:51 <ais523> and I don't really play the card game, I'm more used to the video game
03:44:33 <zzo38> ais523: To make up the satisfactory puzzle, the cards don't matter as long as the old rules are used and all card texts are included. (Make up your own cards if you wish; I recommend naming them CUSTOM 1, CUSTOM 2, DARK CUSTOM 1; and then add levels if necessary for multiple different cards of same name)
03:44:50 <const> does a Aperiodic finite state automaton mean that the graph is cycle free ? because any cycle would in theory create a period wouldn't it ?
03:45:34 <zzo38> ais523: Also, I made two puzzles only so far have you seen them or solved them yet?
03:45:42 <const> oh, from wikipedia Equivalently, a graph is aperiodic if the greatest common divisor of the lengths of its cycles is one;
03:45:48 <const> I don't understand why
03:46:12 <ais523> not sure quite what "aperiodic" means in this context
03:46:25 <const> ais523: the transition function is aperiodic
03:46:39 <const> (a subset of DFAs)
03:46:58 <ais523> aperiodic with what input?
03:47:06 <ais523> given that it's finite, it's got to repeat eventually
03:47:36 <const> ais523: tbh, I'm not fully certain
03:47:43 * const is going based off of wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aperiodic_finite_state_automaton
03:49:25 <ais523> oh, follow the "aperiodic" link; it's talking about aperiodic monoids
03:50:09 <const> I'm trying to understand that in terms of the graph of the DFA
03:50:56 <const> ie, the wikipedia article is in term of group theory and I'm trying to understand in terms of a graph
03:51:14 <ais523> the definition in terms of regular languages is interesting
03:51:25 <const> sure, I'll take that
03:51:56 <const> as far as I understand it, its 'any regular language that can be expressed without a *' but I have a feeling that isn't very technical
03:52:49 <ais523> yes, because it allows the complement operation, and you can get infinite sets that way
03:53:09 <const> ais523: what is the definition in terms of regular languages ?
03:53:32 <ais523> basically, any regular language that can be defined using only concatenation, alternation, and complements
03:54:50 <const> ais523: that is basically what I got from 'star free'
03:55:03 <const> but good to know I understood it correctly :)
03:55:13 <ais523> I'm not sure complements are normally allowed in the definition
03:55:44 <const> actually, they can't be
03:55:57 <const> because union + compliment -> a much larger set
03:56:00 <const> oh wait, thats for PDA
03:56:05 <const> meh, they might be
03:56:56 <const> normally we have union, concat, and star
04:07:11 <zzo38> ais523: Do you know the answer to my question relating to category theory? Also, are you able to solve either of my Pokemon Card puzzles?
04:07:24 <ais523> zzo38: I looked at them earlier, don't really want to look at them again
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07:18:15 <oklopol> ais523: what do you mean by alternation?
07:18:24 <zzo38> coppro: What is that?
07:19:36 <Sgeo> zzo38, the thing starting with / is probably the command in coppro's client to switch to another ... thingy (channel or other thing, "window" I guess)
07:20:01 <Sgeo> Seeing coppro use irssi and having a vague recollection that irssi does that seems to reaffirm my belief
07:20:17 <fizzie> /win some, /lose some.
07:20:30 <pikhq> It's short for /window
07:20:42 <oklopol> complements are usually not allowed in regexps, because the whole beautiful point is that out of building operations, intersection and concatenation emerge by magic.
07:21:14 <pikhq> irssi lets you type unambiguous prefixes of its commands.
07:21:26 <pikhq> Erm, no, that doesn't quite explain it.
07:21:42 <pikhq> Cause /n is /nicks, but there's more commands starting in n.
07:21:53 <fizzie> That's because /n is a (default) alias.
07:22:15 <fizzie> But /win isn't one, presumably because it doesn't need to be.
07:22:45 <pikhq> So, unambiguous prefixes plus some aliases.
07:22:49 <pikhq> Kay, actually makes sense.
07:23:42 <fizzie> Sadly, you can't use unambiguous prefixes of aliases. (Well, maybe it's not that sad.)
07:23:45 <zzo38> But there is a ASCII DELETE sign before the slash
07:25:40 <pikhq> Shame that's not getting rendered nicely here.
07:25:57 <pikhq> Utterly invisible, in fact.
07:26:10 <Sgeo> I see a something there
07:26:29 <Sgeo> Either that or 667F, anyways
07:26:37 * Sgeo wonders what 667F is
07:26:41 <zzo38> The ASCII DELETE code is 007F
07:27:46 <shachaf> Why doesn't my listofUnicodecharacters have U+667F?
07:27:53 <shachaf> As well as a bunch of others.
07:28:08 <shachaf> Also, why are my fonts broken?
07:28:14 <pikhq> Probably omits the CJK space for convenience.
07:28:15 <shachaf> They don't show important characters like ಠ.
07:28:34 <shachaf> Well, it has *some* CJK characters.
07:28:47 <shachaf> Ah, looks like it's mostly radicals and strokes and such.
07:28:48 <kmc> i,i unicode big indian
07:29:04 <Sgeo> I need to stop reading the Fark Politics tab
07:29:19 <ais523> oklopol: alternation = A or B
07:29:23 <pikhq> I am sleep deprived. It is 1:30. I see no connection between these two facts. :P
07:32:02 <shachaf> kmc: Now I want to start a store selling various mind-altering substances just so I can call it the Psychedeli.
07:32:11 <shachaf> Hmm, apparently that name is taken. Never mind.
07:34:31 <shachaf> I like to think of "I,I" as an owl face.
07:37:56 <shachaf> Does it still work with lower-case 'i's?
07:38:09 <kmc> i'm not sure about an owl specifically
07:38:11 <kmc> but it's a face anyway
07:41:06 <zzo38> pikhq: Is it daylight saving time in your area?
07:41:17 <pikhq> zzo38: Unfortunately!
07:41:58 <zzo38> pikhq: That is why you are sleep deprived, then.
07:42:26 <pikhq> DST initiated weeks ago.
07:42:45 <pikhq> I still hate the misanthropic bastards who keep it alive, mind you.
07:43:01 <zzo38> I also don't like daylight saving time
07:43:56 <Sgeo> What would happen if everyone just used 12:00 to mean GMT midnight
07:44:14 <Sgeo> No more fiddling with timezones, I mean
07:44:48 <pikhq> We'd see a sudden influx of unicorns farting rainbows, and manly men weeping tears of joy.
07:44:58 <zzo38> Sgeo: Then it may correspond approximately to the hour angle of the sun, I guess (hour angle of sun is 00:00 at solar noon)
07:45:21 <pikhq> Assuming by GMT you actually meant UTC.
07:46:11 <zzo38> It corresponds to the Greenwich hour angle, not the local hour angle anymore
07:46:12 <pikhq> I'm afraid my computer hates mean solar time, regardless of the meridian used.
07:46:28 <Sgeo> pikhq, I'm somewhat uncertain as to the difference? Something to do with leap seconds?
07:46:56 <pikhq> Sgeo: GMT is defined as the mean solar time at Greenwich.
07:46:57 <zzo38> Timekeeping on computer should be signed 64-bit UNIX time in my opinion.
07:47:34 <Sgeo> What's UTC then?
07:48:08 <pikhq> UTC is defined by TAI, International Atomic Time, with leap seconds to keep it within a second of the mean solar time at 0° longitude.
07:49:09 <pikhq> Unlike GMT, UTC has the nice property that one second is an SI second, not a 60th of a 60th of a 24th of the day, whatever the hell that ends up actually being at the time.
07:49:47 <Sgeo> And I am aware that a second is defined in terms of ... some atomic thing
07:49:52 <zzo38> Yes, the SI second is better
07:49:57 <Sgeo> Something to do with cesium, iirc?
07:50:03 <zzo38> SI units are usually better in general
07:51:15 <pikhq> It's the period of time from some number of cycles of the light emitted from cesium during one of its electron transitions.
07:57:25 <zzo38> Were you looking for setup program for Visgopher? I do have it available now.
08:11:08 <fizzie> If "listofUnicodecharacters" equals UnicodeData.txt, "[t]here are nine special ranges of characters that are represented only by their start and end characters, since the properties in the file are uniform, except for code values (which are all sequential and assigned) -- CJK Ideographs (U+4E00 - U+9FA5)"
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09:00:51 <kmc> shachaf: there is already a stoner-themed sandwich shop chain
09:01:28 <kmc> http://chebahut.com/
09:02:10 <kmc> http://azdailysun.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/sub-shop-driver-hits-pot-hole/article_eb8e9f25-ed3e-551a-8bad-64638cd94d2c.html
09:04:34 <kmc> zzo38: what do you think of Random Standard Time? it's a local dialect of EST where 00:00 through 05:59 are spelled as 24:00 through 29:59
09:05:09 <kmc> (I am not sure if RST switches to EDT or if it's called Random Daylight Time then)
09:05:12 <zzo38> kmc: What is the purpose of that?
09:05:33 <kmc> to shift the day rollover to a time when people are less likely to be awake
09:05:57 <zzo38> I was thinking that might be a reason
09:06:12 <kmc> to avoid confusion between "day" as an aligned 24h interval and "day" as a contiguous period of wakefulness
09:06:39 <kmc> sighsof(shachaf)
09:07:09 <zzo38> Well, use it if it helps you; because of the way the time is written, it is clear what is meant and should not result in anything ambiguous. You simply add hour after midnight same way both ways
09:09:40 <shachaf> kmc: That sounds like a good name for a website where I list C-related annoyances.
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09:11:56 <kmc> Julian Assange has a talk show now and it's on Hulu
09:12:56 <kmc> flight tomorrow afternoon
09:13:03 <shachaf> Is Californiamusicthing over?
09:13:44 <kmc> getting home from it: car train bus train train cab bus train train plane bus train
09:13:47 <kmc> not optimal
09:13:58 <shachaf> I do not recollect ever having used the word "yeah". Odd.
09:14:20 <kmc> i saw Godspeed You! Black Emperor live
09:14:26 <kmc> it is hard to tell when the soundcheck ends and the set begins
09:16:20 <shachaf> I have the feeling the ptrace gremlins and their time machine are making the API worse every time I look at it.
09:16:39 <kmc> there were a lot of good shows
09:16:43 <kmc> The Black Keys were excellent
09:17:18 <shachaf> Sometimes I wish I didn't not-stand almost all music with drums in the background.
09:17:33 <shachaf> (Other times I feel smugly superior about it, because if you don't enjoy something, then why not?)
09:18:07 <kmc> why not milk it for some smug superiority, you mean?
09:18:35 <shachaf> If I don't like it then it's obviously bad, and people who do like it are obviously bad people.
09:19:13 <kmc> that's how it works
09:23:28 <kmc> in this episode, Julian Assange and his guest prank call David Horowitz at home
09:23:40 <kmc> and he repays them by unleashing a stream of weapons grade crazy
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09:28:41 <kmc> and assange just watches with this face like, "trolled"
09:29:37 <kmc> i would repeat some of it here but i think it would count as trolling-by-proxy
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09:45:14 <kmc> this is really funny if you ignore the fact that Horowitz is serious and there are millions of people who agree with him
09:50:04 <shachaf> Is there an actual spec for D?
09:50:47 <zzo38> Who is Horowitz and what are these prank calls about?
09:52:09 <kmc> it's not actually a prank call
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13:29:11 <elliott> 19:13:35: <ion> I slept for 17 hours.
13:29:12 <elliott> 19:14:18: <oklopol> ion: hey i did that a few weeks ago
13:29:12 <elliott> 19:14:27: <oklopol> 18 is my record
13:29:20 <elliott> ion: oklopol: mine's 21, iirc
13:34:09 <elliott> 07:45:21: <pikhq> Assuming by GMT you actually meant UTC.
13:34:12 <elliott> pikhq: GMT is UTC these days.
13:34:18 <elliott> 07:43:56: <Sgeo> What would happen if everyone just used 12:00 to mean GMT midnight
13:34:18 <elliott> 07:44:14: <Sgeo> No more fiddling with timezones, I mean
13:34:29 <elliott> 07:46:28: <Sgeo> pikhq, I'm somewhat uncertain as to the difference? Something to do with leap seconds?
13:34:29 <elliott> 07:46:56: <pikhq> Sgeo: GMT is defined as the mean solar time at Greenwich.
13:34:36 <elliott> pikhq: Sgeo: No, it is not.
13:37:54 <elliott> `addquote <kmc> i saw Godspeed You! Black Emperor live <kmc> it is hard to tell when the soundcheck ends and the set begins
13:38:04 <HackEgo> 846) <kmc> i saw Godspeed You! Black Emperor live <kmc> it is hard to tell when the soundcheck ends and the set begins
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14:35:06 <elliott> @where+ fizzie I know nothing about fizzie.
14:35:26 <lambdabot> elliott is thumbing around Northumberland
14:35:36 <elliott> @where+ elliott I know nothing about elliott.
14:53:06 <lambdabot> I know nothing about phantom_hoover.
15:02:54 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10306696/what-does-parse-error-with-mean
15:02:54 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10303904/why-is-there-a-parse-error
15:03:06 <oklopol> he's not just a robot, he's also the definition of robot
15:03:23 <nortti> "Will DJGPP run on my brand-new Acme i986DX7/900 PC with a SCSI-III 10-Terabyte disk drive under MulticOS/42 v7.99 operating system?"
15:04:21 <oklopol> elliott: why would you learn the syntax of a language when there's forums though
15:04:40 <elliott> oklopol: that's not the worst part, the worst part is that the exact same person reposted the exact same question /after getting answers/
15:04:48 <elliott> and after responding to those answers
15:05:01 <oklopol> oh i assumed i was seeing things
15:07:33 <oklopol> as a set, the sense that answer makes does not contain a point which, as a singleton set, is open.
15:12:56 <oklopol> omg, dude on numb3rs solved the riemann hypothesis
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15:13:14 <oklopol> dudde. that's cool it's hard.
15:16:29 <ion> After the 17-hour sleep, i was awake for a few hours and then slept for 12 hours. ಠ_ಠ
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15:17:16 <oklopol> do you do that a lot? it could be a sign of you being a sleepyhead.
15:22:12 <oklopol> so these duddes want this duddes proof of the riemann hypothesis so they could factorize large numbers and break encryptions.
15:24:22 <oklopol> i guess the fact that they now know that things based on the riemann hypothesis actually work means they can convince their hacker bosses to start using these algorithms instead of the known ones
15:25:09 <oklopol> although there is some relevant context
15:25:59 <Phantom_Hoover> What if the proof is in a proof checker and it does efficient factorisation as a crucial step?
15:27:07 <oklopol> and he tells a guy at american journal of number theory that he has an "almost finished" proof, the journal guy is all like omgomgomg i have to see this, finally we have the answer by this dude who couldn't finish his phd, I HAVE TO SEE THIS.
15:28:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Or is he just like "guys guys guys I totally have a proof you can trust me I'm from TV".
15:28:25 <oklopol> well the journal guy didn't mention getting any concrete proof
15:29:37 <Phantom_Hoover> "Mathematician announces proof that he has a proof of the Riemann hypothesis"
15:30:50 <Phantom_Hoover> "Proof of proof of Riemann hypothesis declared 'flawed', 'bullshit'."
15:31:06 <Gregor> A ZKP of the Riemann hypothesis would be kind of a dick move X-D
15:31:18 <elliott> X = mathematician announces proof that he has a proof of X
15:31:39 <elliott> Gregor: don't you just mean a non-constructive proof
15:32:24 <Phantom_Hoover> No, he doesn't, because only constructivists would care then.
15:32:28 <elliott> zero-knowledge proof i think
15:32:28 <Gregor> elliott: No, I mean if said mathematician had a way of proving that he had the proof, without providing the proof (which is probably not meaningful)
15:32:35 <Gregor> Yeah, zero-knowledge proof is what I meant.
15:32:42 <ion> oklopol: Never happened before.
15:32:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you realise constructive proofs are useful for more than ideology right
15:32:49 <elliott> they give you an algorithm
15:33:15 <elliott> a non-constructive proof of P=NP would be so anticlimatic
15:33:18 <Phantom_Hoover> An algorithm is... hardly useful for the Riemann hypothesis.
15:33:19 <oklopol> we were reading this article where we prove that some things are decidable
15:33:23 <oklopol> and the proof is fine and well
15:33:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you can use it to factorise numbers!!
15:33:29 <oklopol> and then i ask, erm so what's the algo
15:33:33 <Gregor> elliott: Idonno, it would spark a hunt for a constructive proof.
15:33:34 <Phantom_Hoover> We can /already/ calculate non-trivial zeroes to our satisfaction.
15:33:50 <oklopol> although we then extracted it ofc
15:34:05 <Gregor> elliott: Also, "anticlimatic" means "against the climate"
15:34:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Also what about my nonconstructive proof of the existence of a proof or disproof of the Riemann hypothesis?
15:34:40 <Gregor> elliott: So, a non-constructive proof of P=NP would destroy the environment?
15:35:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: that's useful nonconstructively
15:35:16 <elliott> it proofs ~(~proof /\ ~disproof)
15:35:40 <oklopol> omg, his proof of riemann hypothesis was wrong
15:36:06 <oklopol> apparently it's too hard to even claim to have a correct proof in a tv show :D
15:36:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: uh what is your proof then
15:36:33 <elliott> what are you even proving, is it just "RH isn't independent of ZFC"
15:36:37 <elliott> because even i can prove that
15:36:45 <Phantom_Hoover> (It basically relies on zeta(z) = 0 being decidable for all z.)
15:37:11 <elliott> you don't need decidability to condition on an equality in ZFC
15:37:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Existance of a proof or disproof is equivalent to decidability?
15:38:11 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: how do you enumerate the complex numbers?
15:38:37 <Phantom_Hoover> A thing (wait this is decidability I'm talking about right not something else).
15:39:15 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: hmm perhaps just a dense subset since it's analytic
15:39:54 <elliott> i don't see what you're talking about at all
15:39:58 <oklopol> well aren't you talking about checking numbers z and evaluating zeta of z to some precision?
15:40:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Well no, I just don't actually /know/ how you decide whether zeta(z) = 0 for arbitrary z.
15:41:09 <oklopol> how do you give the z as input
15:41:15 <elliott> a non-trivial zero in ZFC+RH must be a zero in ZFC+~RH because the zeta function is the same in both, q.e.d.
15:41:26 <elliott> that doesn't hold, because the value of the zeta function at that zero could be independent
15:42:11 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, I don't know, throw a dart at a dartboard and map its position to C??
15:42:27 <oklopol> sounds like you'll get a computable number?
15:42:55 <oklopol> proving the hypothesis in a measure 0 set.
15:43:54 <elliott> just take the reals as countable
15:44:08 <oklopol> take a countable model of ZFC
15:44:21 <elliott> There exists a model of ZF¬C in which real numbers are a countable union of countable sets.
15:45:00 <elliott> (the countable sets are {3,4}, {4,5,6,7,8}, {nullity, 2nullity, 3nullity}, and {8})
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16:24:34 <nortti> "and here less is considered to be more than more"
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17:46:22 <HackEgo> spaceships: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
17:48:16 <elliott> http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php/Names_from_a_high_order_Markov_Process_and_a_simplified_Katz_back-off_scheme what a title
18:12:17 <elliott> hmm, http://stackoverflow.com/questions/163026/what-is-your-least-favorite-syntax-gotcha has been at 9 delete votes for the past, like, week
18:14:42 <Sgeo> elliott, I've seen similar questions that were interesting
18:14:59 <elliott> I doubt it, all those questions are ancient and crap
18:15:08 <elliott> like the ridiculous "favourite programmer cartoon" one
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18:24:21 <nortti> have you seen zzo38 lately?
18:27:27 <elliott> zzo38 is sometimes away for a while
18:31:36 <nortti> goes up and down 2 times per day?
18:42:27 <nortti> or is zzo38's height affected by moon?
18:45:24 <Gregor> Technically speaking, all of our heights are affected by the moon, just not very much.
18:59:30 <pikhq> Also affected by our velocities, as well as that of anyone observing.
19:00:09 * elliott wonders whether Lancycummins is a spambot.
19:02:39 * Gregor wonders whether elliott is a spambot.
19:02:45 <itidus21> occasionally he is like a superwave
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19:34:12 <itidus21> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use_%282012%29/en "This is a human-readable summary of the Terms of Use."
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19:36:29 <itidus21> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use_%282012%29/fi "Tm on helposti luettava yhteenveto kyttehtojen sisllst."
19:37:57 <olsner> they call finnish human-readable?
19:38:45 <Ngevd> `addquote <olsner> they call finnish human-readable?
19:38:48 <HackEgo> 847) <olsner> they call finnish human-readable?
19:40:04 <HackEgo> 377) <Phantom_Hoover> Lymia, I don't know what that is but I want to hit you for it on principle.
19:40:05 <nortti> itidus21: they don't call it human-readable. Translated to english:"
19:40:07 <HackEgo> 257) <Vorpal> !bfjoust test (-)*10000 <EgoBot> Score for Vorpal_test: 12.9 <Vorpal> yay
19:40:14 <HackEgo> 747) <zzo38> Even the Spanish Inquisition is in this game. <ais523> zzo38: was it unexpected? <zzo38> Kind of...
19:40:23 <HackEgo> 116) <Bubo> ooh a test to see your procrastination hotspots <Bubo> ill do it later
19:40:24 <HackEgo> 19) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
19:41:03 <nortti> -"+"This is easily readable summary of terms of use"
19:41:03 <olsner> you shall find bekkler! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
19:41:32 <itidus21> nortti: well thats good of them :-D .. but the english version does literally say human-readable
19:41:54 <olsner> that must mean they think the finnish is easily readable by non-humans
19:42:31 <elliott> olsner: which one is the worsto ut of that set?
19:43:07 <oerjan> hm 116 gave a chuckle here
19:43:12 <nortti> olsner: Empä nyt sanoisi että me emme olisi ihmisia
19:43:30 <olsner> nortti: ei saa peittää
19:43:37 <HackEgo> *poof* <Phantom_Hoover> Lymia, I don't know what that is but I want to hit you for it on principle.
19:44:24 <itidus21> it worries me that a terms of use document might ever take a non human-readable form
19:44:47 <nortti> olsner: was that google trandlate finnish "It is not allowed to cover"
19:45:02 <olsner> nortti: no, it's what it says on radiators
19:46:04 <itidus21> i included the equivalent statement from the finnish terms of use for curiosity.. but it was really the english one i was worried about..
19:46:14 <nortti> well it can be translated to "covering is not allowed"
19:49:06 <itidus21> ok on google i get 44,300 results for +"This is a human-readable summary" so i will just let this one go
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19:50:05 <olsner> vs 1.3 billion results for summary, does not look good for the humans
19:50:18 <Ngevd> itidus21, it means rather than lawyer-readable
19:50:51 * ais523 saw a ping in #esoteric and started typing "hi elliott" before checking who it was from
19:50:51 <elliott> http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/ is a human-readable summary of Esolang's content licensing
19:51:14 <ais523> elliott: there are also machine-readable versions of CC licenses
19:51:30 <ais523> apparently this is an attempt to abuse the DMCA, in that removing them would be circumventing a technological watermarking measure
19:51:51 <elliott> ais523: err? that is a CC license
19:54:37 <Ngevd> How long before Lancycummins makes either a spam page or a BF deriviative?
19:55:29 <oerjan> the very first BF derivative spam page
19:56:27 <nortti> is there a difference anymore
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19:59:20 <itidus21> My least favorite syntax gotcha: >[ //do stuff... ] When I intended: [ //do stuff... ]
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20:03:15 <itidus21> at pidgi.net 15:17, 23 April 2012 Lancycummins (Talk | contribs) New user account
20:04:15 <ais523> itidus21: what language is that?
20:04:32 <itidus21> my last 2 posts were unrelated from each other
20:04:54 <ais523> itidus21: I know, I was refering to the syntax gotcha one
20:04:57 <itidus21> ais523: brainfuck with colourful illegal c-style commenting
20:06:39 * elliott wonders what pidgi.net is.
20:06:40 <oerjan> it's the .'s that make it illegal, not the //
20:06:59 <ais523> oerjan: unless it's a header comment
20:06:59 <elliott> I think it's probably a spambot, but can't access the database to find out.
20:07:16 <itidus21> elliott: actually lancycummins is all over the net
20:07:18 <ais523> elliott: have you tried visiting it with a web browser?
20:07:30 <elliott> itidus21: yes, seemingly 0 posts everywhere
20:07:41 <elliott> ais523: (after I said that)
20:08:33 <elliott> wow, who uses MediaWiki as a file repository?
20:09:38 -!- Ngevd has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
20:10:51 <ais523> elliott: probably at least one person
20:11:09 <ais523> Wikipedia specifically have a speedy deletion rule to stop people steganographically embedding files in images they upload and using it as a file server
20:12:11 <ais523> elliott: presumably it happens often enough that they need a rule against it
20:13:02 <itidus21> ok found something! http://www.okaymark.com/user/history/lancycummins/
20:13:33 <elliott> ais523: we can preemptively ban a spammer!
20:14:04 <ais523> elliott: just because we can doesn't mean we should!
20:14:39 <elliott> ais523: but this spammer seems to rarely do anything on most sites!
20:14:43 <elliott> the deletion script might miss it!
20:15:46 <HackEgo> 842) <Sgeo> hack and back? <Patashu> works on anything much slower than you <monqy> at the cost of: guilt, hating yourself, me sending you the message "hi" <Patashu> am I also forbidden to cast mephitic cloud and cblink <monqy> i will also send you "hi" if you: kite excessively, use mephitic cloud, -yes
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20:33:58 <HackEgo> 229) <quintopia> vorpal: a lot of people in AK fly <Vorpal> quintopia, well getting a pilot cert is a lot more complex than a driving license :P <quintopia> being an AK resident is a lot more complex than a driver's license too
20:34:05 <HackEgo> 205) <tswett> elliott: just to bring you up to speed, you are now my baby nephew. <olsner> wtf, elliott is a nephew and his uncle is here? <nooga> what <tswett> Heck yes I'm elliott's uncle.
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20:34:09 <HackEgo> 154) <ais523> it was too difficult
20:34:22 <HackEgo> 347) <Cheery> [...] OOPS.. my cockfile got destroyed
20:34:22 <HackEgo> 3) <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order.
20:34:37 <HackEgo> *poof* <ais523> it was too difficult
20:36:01 <ais523> that quote seems awful
20:36:09 <ais523> it may have been funnier in context but I doubt it
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20:43:39 <tswett> elliott: have I told you you're now capable of walking, and you can sort of say a couple of words?
20:43:48 <elliott> tswett: thanks, I wasn't aware
20:44:25 <tswett> I don't know if you're potty-trained yet.
20:44:39 <tswett> But yeah, congratulations on the walking thing.
20:44:45 <elliott> it was difficult but i tried
20:44:46 <tswett> Many kids never get to that stage.
20:45:41 <elliott> ais523: are you /sure/ we can't block lancycummins?
20:46:13 <ais523> elliott: it looks a little like admin abuse even if it isn't
20:46:17 <ais523> OTOH, Graue probably would have done
20:46:28 <elliott> ais523: I was going to leave a comment on the user talk page linking to the evidence
20:46:46 <ais523> oh, in that case it's probably fine
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22:39:16 <elliott> just reinstall for christs sake
22:40:00 <Phantom__Hoover> I have useful data? Or does reinstall not mess with that these days, im stupid
22:41:13 <elliott> get the data first obviously
22:41:18 <elliott> if you don't know how to do that i disown you
22:42:14 <Phantom__Hoover> The people in #arch suggested downgrading the kernel package from a live disk.
22:42:14 <ais523> elliott: the problem often isn't getting the data, but finding somewhere to store it while you reinstore
22:42:35 <elliott> that's not the arch channel
22:42:38 <elliott> ais523: he has a windows partition
22:42:55 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: get the latest live medium, boot it, pacman -S irssi on the second terminal, log in here, report to me
22:43:19 <shachaf> elliott: That's a pretty neat representation.
22:43:20 <Phantom__Hoover> Also how do you expect me to get it onto the Windows partition.
22:43:35 <elliott> shachaf: the lambda calculus one?
22:43:47 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: with one of the writable ntfs drivers?
22:43:48 <shachaf> Or the few snippets I saw of the conversation.
22:44:08 <shachaf> It sounds horrible to use in practice. :-)
22:44:10 <Phantom__Hoover> 'Useful data' here means 'data it took large amounts of time to download'.
22:44:17 <elliott> shachaf: I'm... not sure why.
22:44:26 <elliott> You need some rank-2/existential for parsing it.
22:44:34 <elliott> Well, that's not strictly true. But it practically is.
22:44:39 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: How big is the data?
22:45:06 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Do you have live media that can contain it?
22:45:49 <shachaf> elliott: Is saying "cheers" in an American accent the worst crime one can commit?
22:45:52 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: is it really that important
22:46:09 <shachaf> It's a good thing my accent isn't very American, then. :-)
22:46:14 <ais523> what's the worst crime the other can commit?
22:46:24 <shachaf> Although it's similarly rhotic.
22:46:30 <shachaf> Which I guess is the point.
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22:46:52 <shachaf> elliott: What if I had a South African accent. :-(
22:46:53 <Phantom__Hoover> Well that and the general inconvenience of rebuilding all the configuration means I'd rather fix rather than reinstall.
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22:47:54 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: You mean which 'r' I use?
22:48:06 <pikhq> shachaf: Isn't South African English generally non-rhotic?
22:48:30 <shachaf> (My accent isn't South African or anything.)
22:49:05 <pikhq> What *is* your accent? "Hard to classify"?
22:49:18 <Phantom__Hoover> There are ten different rhotic consonants; different accents use different ones.
22:49:48 <shachaf> pikhq: I'm not sure how I'd classify it, but I'm bad at accent classification in general.
22:50:07 <elliott> shachaf: I've never used that LC representation in practice. Maybe I should.
22:50:28 <shachaf> A Hebrew speaker figured out that I speak Hebrew from my accent once, but I don't think it's a very typical one.
22:50:50 <shachaf> pikhq: If you want you can call me and I'll accent at you!
22:51:03 <shachaf> Although I'm slightly sick right now, so that changes it further.
22:51:28 <pikhq> Non-native accents are pretty hard to classify.
22:52:13 <shachaf> pikhq: I once spoke with shapr on the phone.
22:52:19 <pikhq> If you're lucky it'll be one featuring mostly patterns from the native language because of, say, learning the language from someone else with the same native language.
22:52:27 <pikhq> If you're unlucky it'll be a weird, mismatched mess.
22:52:45 <shachaf> pikhq: "my native language" is also a hard one to place.
22:52:53 <pikhq> If you happen to, say, be a Hebrew speaker learning English from a German speaker. :P
22:53:08 <shachaf> I'm told that the first language I spoke was English, but then I decided to forget it when I was ~3 and didn't relearn until I was ~10-11.
22:53:57 <pikhq> Phantom__Hoover: If it was an American, don't be surprised.
22:54:03 <ais523> shachaf: what are the official languages of the country in which you spent most of your childhood living?
22:54:14 <elliott> ais523: German, Swahili and Lojban
22:54:26 <ais523> elliott: I choose not to believe you
22:54:28 <Phantom__Hoover> It was another Scot (who himself had a pan-RP accent, it's more common than you'd think in Edinburgh).
22:54:36 <shachaf> ais523: I think Hebrew and Arabic?
22:54:49 <pikhq> We don't hear many *different* sorts of accents from the UK, so consider yourself doing well if they can identify the constituent country it's from.
22:55:06 <shachaf> pikhq: _Pygmalion_ is a good play.
22:55:23 <shachaf> Much better than e.g. _My Fair Lady_.
22:57:04 <HackEgo> 618) <Phantom_Hoover> It's like Pygmalion and Galatea but more weeaboo. <Phantom_Hoover> Also lesbian.
22:58:59 <Phantom__Hoover> pikhq, what about distinguishing Ireland and Scotland, you guys can do that, right?
22:59:29 <ais523> shachaf: that's an interestingly religiously charged combination
23:00:15 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: I am aware of its existence, and thought that that would be the most likely place in the world to have that sort of combination
23:00:33 <elliott> Hebrew is basically a dialect of Lojban anyway
23:01:08 <ion> “Spirit Mirror Pendant: Wearer gains experience points 25% faster.” Cool, except that now i have trouble deciding which character to give it to.
23:01:42 <HackEgo> 640) <fungot> Ngevd:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov
23:01:44 <ais523> ion: unless you're speedrunning, whoever in your eventual squad currently has the lowest experience and doesn't need the points for anything else
23:01:44 <HackEgo> 802) <Sgeo_> Why does CL get called functional? <oerjan> it's sort of like how you call ancient greece democratic.
23:01:53 <pikhq> Phantom__Hoover: Only with the more stereotypical accents.
23:02:02 <HackEgo> 798) <fungot> elliott: the new fnord <fungot> elliott: what is the point? nothing changed.
23:02:02 <HackEgo> 491) <Taneb> aibohphobia <Taneb> The fear of palindromes
23:02:04 <HackEgo> 548) <monqy> i am out of all the fame loops <monqy> and the australien soap opera loops <monqy> so much loop / s omcuh
23:02:14 <pikhq> Otherwise you'll hit "rhotic -> flip a coin".
23:02:50 <ion> ais523: In Grimrock every character seems to gain experience at roughtly the same rate. So i should figure out which one gaining more experience would be the most useful for me.
23:02:51 <pikhq> ais523: Yeah, Israel has *quite* a religiously charged combination going on.
23:02:55 <ais523> 491 is not original, and not massively funny
23:03:03 <ais523> and I don't really like 548 either
23:03:16 <Phantom__Hoover> pikhq, bringing the light of other peoples' jokes to the world.
23:03:19 <ais523> if 798 is not two sentences from different contexts, it's awesome
23:03:24 <ais523> otherwise it's cheating
23:03:48 <elliott> ais523: they were within <3 minutes of each other
23:03:52 <elliott> without much being said in the interim, IIRC
23:04:03 <elliott> I cut out the interim lines because it was too good to pass up on
23:04:17 <pikhq> Phantom__Hoover: Joke? What?
23:04:20 <pikhq> Phantom__Hoover: Ah, right.
23:04:28 <pikhq> Phantom__Hoover: Think I missed your line in there.
23:05:09 <pikhq> Not in a contest of wits.
23:05:28 <ion> I think i’ll give it to the mage.
23:05:41 <pikhq> I'll just have to challenge you to a contest of GUNS, EAGLES, BARBECUE, AND PATRIOTISM! FUCK YEAH!
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23:45:29 <shachaf> ais523: Does my style remind you of God?
23:52:37 <shachaf> elliott said my style reminded him of God.
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00:04:44 <shachaf> monqy: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Creation_of_the_Sun_and_Moon_face_detail.jpg
00:06:44 <monqy> shachaf: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d4/Man_in_the_Moon_with_key.jpg
00:07:55 <monqy> shachaf: did you know: lesser known monqy trivia: at school: this reallye happened: someone nicknamed me "god" (why??)
00:08:13 <shachaf> monqy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FullMoon2010.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Llave_bronce.jpg
00:08:29 <shachaf> monqy: Wait, you go to elliott?
00:09:16 <monqy> shachaf: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Man_In_The_Moon2.png
00:09:21 <elliott> why doesn'tcrawl have monqy as a go
00:09:25 <elliott> if i patched that in would they accpt it
00:10:01 <monqy> i dont really know if theres "one true name" for them
00:10:08 <monqy> usually it's devs or dev team or devteam or something like that
00:11:13 <shachaf> it is written in the booke of monqy:
00:11:37 <elliott> crawl doesnt have book of x intros
00:11:48 <elliott> "They say the Orb of Zot exists deep, deep down but nobody ever got it."
00:12:03 <shachaf> im' talknig about nethack :'(
00:12:28 <elliott> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/ucgi/~markm/git?p=crawl-ref.git;a=commitdiff_plain;h=46c3bdfbb600940b5de1c4a9e9750f247568facf
00:13:04 <shachaf> Crawl is written in C++??!?!!
00:13:09 <monqy> i've patched it it's a pain
00:13:18 <monqy> historical artefact i guess
00:13:23 <shachaf> monqy: WELEL IVEEE PATCHED NETJHAKC!!
00:13:29 <shachaf> And I wrote really bad code. :-(
00:13:46 <shachaf> I was younger and foolisher than elliott.
00:13:48 <monqy> one time i patched nethack too but it was just for playing around (with crawl the patches actually got put into the game true story)
00:13:59 <shachaf> My patch is running on NAO.
00:14:01 <elliott> shachaf: donte be silly that was the guy who invented json
00:14:09 <shachaf> elliott: No it was me. :-(
00:14:19 <elliott> ur just trying to take credit
00:14:25 <monqy> "who shoudl i belev"
00:15:00 <monqy> patch "by shachef not elliotts"
00:15:33 <monqy> if crawl code wasn't painful i probably would have made my very own fork
00:15:47 <monqy> but since it is "welp"
00:16:03 <shachaf> what if monqrawl and crawlqy merged
00:16:50 <monqy> but probably it would be qcrawl since the de-facto standard naming scheme for crawl variatns that dont exist is (letter)crawl and mcrawl is already taken
00:17:23 <monqy> incidentally i'm listed on the mcrawl devteam (the mcrawl devteam is just people who say silly things that should change about crawl)
00:17:32 <monqy> ((except for rwbarton who sometimes implements them))
00:17:41 <elliott> basically the same thing right
00:18:06 <elliott> monqy: whate about crawl lighte
00:18:07 <monqy> yet another javascript objectnotation
00:18:16 <monqy> crawl light exists
00:18:32 <monqy> it's imamture but it exists
00:18:53 <shachaf> elliott: HLep i jsut read haskell code like c++?:(
00:19:08 <elliott> monqy: https://gitorious.org/~rwbarton/crawl/mcrawl
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00:19:35 <monqy> i knew some codeing was implemtned but i forgot it had a repositeor
00:23:10 <itidus20> http://rwbarton.com/ "Welcome aboard. This site is dedicated to the thoughts and interests of rwbarton. " Powered by WebSite TONIGHT from godaddy.com
00:23:46 <monqy> is that the saim rwbarton or a diferent rwbarton
00:24:54 <monqy> oh no, domainsbyproxy
00:25:10 <itidus20> quotation from rwbarton.com "Therefore, as this Easter day draws to a close, how fitting that we contemplate atoning Jesusbending and curved in Gethsemane. His bleeding curvature transformed the grammar of death. Until Gethsemane and Calvary, death was a punctuating, rigid exclamation point! Then death, too, curvedinto a mere comma!"
00:25:39 <monqy> wasnt't sourcrereal also domainsbyproxy
00:26:21 <monqy> and theres another site that i realized sourcreal reminded me of but it's gone now :'( it was like sourcereal years ago for me when i was just a kiddo who didnt knew about sourcreal
00:27:09 <monqy> teaandcrumpets.co.uk "have you heard of it"
00:27:48 <monqy> it had a page where they time traveled and prevented the holocaust by way of hitler forming an um pa pa band
00:28:07 <elliott> http://web.archive.org/web/20091208063734/http://www.teaandcrumpets.co.uk/
00:28:27 <monqy> the images look a bit gone :(
00:28:28 <elliott> http://web.archive.org/web/20060616121723/http://www.teaandcrumpets.co.uk/ this one is lesss broke
00:28:31 <itidus20> monqy: that sounds like a fascinating universe, but, theres no guarantee that it's a better one
00:28:42 <monqy> thats old teaancrumpets from before i knew of it
00:30:31 <monqy> First off we took a trip to Germany during the early 1940’s and convinced Hitler that mutton chops and a top had were the right kind of fashion accessory for a evil dictator, of course we knew that they are the tools of comedy.
00:30:43 <monqy> oh no the picture of hitler in a top hat is gone
00:31:09 <itidus20> does Godwin's law apply in this situation?
00:31:32 <monqy> So that’s Hitler sorted out, you may be interested to know what happened to Hitler and the rest of the Second World War well Hitler formed the now world famous German um-pa band im hitler fühlen meine Freude.
00:31:36 <monqy> Previously to this he handed back all the Jews unharmed and gave control of the invaded countries to random world leaders that were pulled out of his prize bingo machine that he loved so much, this was the favored option over blindfolded darts with a map of the World as this was deemed unsafe and unfair.
00:31:50 <itidus20> Actually, it's a universe in which there is no Godwin's law.
00:32:09 <shachaf> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mike_Godwin_at_Wikimedia_2010.jpg
00:32:39 <shachaf> Godwin is an actual lawyer.
00:37:46 <itidus20> he has also commented on the talk page of the article about him
00:41:46 <shachaf> monqy: this isnt usenete :'(
00:42:11 <shachaf> I once spammed Usenet. :-(
00:43:17 <shachaf> Something I was selling on eBay. :-(
00:43:27 <shachaf> I feel like a terrible person whenever I think about it.
00:43:31 <shachaf> I had no idea what I was doing.
00:44:08 <shachaf> monqy: "am i a teriblle pesrson"
00:44:38 <shachaf> You're just asking because you want to find the post. :-(
00:45:38 <shachaf> (You'll be able to find it based on the information I've given you, I think.)
00:46:53 <shachaf> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walkalong_glider
00:47:03 <shachaf> I had spent a long time looking for those and couldn't find them anywhere online.
00:47:09 <shachaf> Then I found several for sale in a local store.
00:47:21 <shachaf> So I bought an extra one and thought I'd put it online for people like me to find.
00:47:55 <itidus20> Ok ok I admit it.. when I said, Monqy V: The Scrolls of Oreze, the way I arrived at Oreze was capitalizeFirstLetter(reverse("zero") + "e")
00:49:47 <elliott> monqy: capitalising the first letter of monqy is sin right
00:50:11 <monqy> depending on what you mean by sin
00:50:32 <itidus20> haha.. you will never resolve that definition in time to act upon it
00:51:15 <shachaf> > let monqy = 5 in sin monqy
00:53:33 <ion> Is fmap sin a sinner?
00:54:38 <monqy> i hate trigonometry
00:55:30 <shachaf> Here in AMERICA, we'd pronounce the 'r' at the end.
00:57:36 <shachaf> pikhq: How do I learn Japanlanguage. :-(
01:09:46 <itidus20> i dunno what they say its like Namco Bandai Games To
01:10:23 <itidus20> i know" to" can mean "and" .. ahh who knows
01:17:43 <itidus20> but when the games have names like kingdom hearts 3d: dream drop distance, and extend every extra .. i'm not worried
01:18:33 <elliott> do you realise you never make any fucking sense
01:19:05 <monqy> don't worry itidus20 i like it that way
01:19:28 <monqy> (i still have yet to resolve that definition have i run out of time to act upon it)
01:20:19 <itidus20> ok i'll try to clarify.. trigonometry -> trigger no metry -> . o O (metry no trigger -> metori no torigga(not an actual transliteration) )
01:21:34 <itidus20> doki doki is an onomatopeia representing a heart beating in a panic which is occasionally used in video game titles
01:21:47 <itidus20> monogatari means something like story and also shows up in video game titles
01:21:53 <pikhq> toriganametori for realz
01:22:37 <pikhq> Dictionary says "yes".
01:23:09 <itidus20> "namco bandai games" is something a hyper-enthused japanese man says in the introduction to dragon ball kai (an abridged series of dragon ball z) episodes
01:24:11 <itidus20> and finally, there is a game named Extend Every Extra, and as google told me another one named Extend Every Extra Extreme. And another game named Kingdom Hearts 3D subtitled Dream Drop Distance
01:25:12 <itidus20> But obviously my explanation does nothing to make it look like I don't have a thought disorder.
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01:37:59 <Sgeo> That reminds me of a weird game
01:38:31 <Sgeo> It's literally only because of "namco" which sounded familiar
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02:18:01 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy update
02:18:13 <elliott> can he be decisive about anything yet
02:19:11 <HackEgo> 841) <Sgeo> hack and back? <Patashu> works on anything much slower than you <monqy> at the cost of: guilt, hating yourself, me sending you the message "hi" <Patashu> am I also forbidden to cast mephitic cloud and cblink <monqy> i will also send you "hi" if you: kite excessively, use mephitic cloud, -yes
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03:38:57 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Wed Apr 25 20:38:51 2012
03:41:59 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Wed Apr 25 20:41:55 2012
03:46:47 <Sgeo> Google is giving me trouble
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04:15:32 <itidus20> it's funny to me.. I have absolutely no conception of where this place fits into the world at large. I am naive and innocent.
04:19:04 <itidus20> well you guys seem to be signifigant in the realm of HWN
04:19:39 <elliott> no we just hang out in #haskell
04:22:43 <itidus20> *contemplates* i think noone i have ever met face to face in real life (except the the time i was at school -- none of my classmates for some of that time though) would have the foggiest clue what a haskell was.
04:22:43 <shachaf> Whoa, man, I've been "ed in HWN.
04:22:44 <shachaf> (That says "double-quoted", by the way.)
04:22:44 <shachaf> itidus: It's actually a quoting ring.
04:22:44 <shachaf> I @remembered one of those quotes of elliott's; elliott @remembered one of mine.
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04:23:35 <itidus20> oh.. hmm.. this one guy my dad was friends with might
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04:23:38 <Sgeo> I met someone who is a major Haskell fan
04:23:44 <Sgeo> And I told my gf about Haskell
04:23:50 <shachaf> 21:19 < elliott> no we just hang out in #haskell
04:23:52 <shachaf> 21:21 < shachaf> Whoa, man, I've been "ed in HWN.
04:23:55 <shachaf> 21:22 < shachaf> (That says "double-quoted", by the way.)
04:23:57 <shachaf> 21:22 < shachaf> itidus: It's actually a quoting ring.
04:24:00 <shachaf> 21:22 < shachaf> I @remembered one of those quotes of elliott's; elliott @remembered one of mine.
04:24:18 <itidus20> i think i could safely convince most people a haskell was a form of cough syrup
04:25:20 <shachaf> Oh, my text came through before.
04:26:11 <shachaf> Or my Internet connection is just really really slow.
04:26:21 <shachaf> 64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_req=1 ttl=54 time=797 ms
04:26:38 <itidus20> "* shachaf has quit (Quit: Reconnecting)"
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04:26:48 <shachaf> I'm getting *dozens* of kB/s.
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04:40:57 <elliott> `addquote <monqy> 200 and 20 are the same <monqy> different notations for the same thing
04:41:00 <HackEgo> 846) <monqy> 200 and 20 are the same <monqy> different notations for the same thing
04:41:37 <HackEgo> Spot_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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04:56:32 <Sgeo> `welcome HackEgo
04:56:35 <HackEgo> HackEgo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
04:57:00 <Sgeo> `welcome A man with a space for a face
04:57:05 <HackEgo> A: man: with: a: space: for: a: face: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
04:57:17 <Sgeo> Well, that's interesting
04:57:43 <elliott> its for welcoming multiple people
04:58:47 <Sgeo> I am now bizarrely proud of "A man with a space for a face"
04:58:59 <Sgeo> Doesn't help that I was just reading Lyttle Lytton stuff
05:02:14 <elliott> a man with a space for a face
05:09:28 <Sgeo> http://adamcadre.ac/12lyttle.html
05:09:32 <Sgeo> tswett's on there
05:20:59 <Sgeo> Why is my DNS sucking?
05:23:58 <shachaf> How do Britishizens pronounce "argh"?
05:27:15 <shachaf> What if they see it written down?
05:30:12 <pikhq_> shachaf: They go off for tea instead.
05:30:49 <shachaf> I BET ELLIOTT DRINKS GREEN TEA
05:32:29 <itidus20> i think it might be a silent "gh"
05:36:08 <itidus20> disregard my comments as per usual
05:36:37 <itidus20> Argh! is an esoteric programming language in the spirit of Befunge, Brainfuck, and friends
05:45:46 <Sgeo> Are you a trope/
06:14:55 <shachaf> kmc: I hear there's a much more stylish and professional competitor to mosh. It's called the Portable Shell.
06:15:34 <shachaf> That makes me think of a wumpus, not a trombone.
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06:35:37 <pikhq_> There was an anime called "Superbook". It was Bible. Produced by Tatsunoko Productions in conjunction with Christian Broadcasting Network for the purpose of, well, evangelism.
06:35:46 <pikhq_> It was the first anime broadcast in the US.
06:35:58 <pikhq_> *Pat Robertson* is responsible for that.
06:37:18 <Sgeo> Is it bad in a good way, by any chance?
06:37:32 <Sgeo> Sounds like it could be fun
06:38:07 <Sgeo> Do they get to experience the story with the two she-bears?
06:38:35 <Sgeo> TV Tropes claims that it was good.
06:38:37 <Sgeo> That sounds boring.
06:39:33 <Sgeo> It's surely possible to enjoy fiction that promotes a PoV that I don't agree with
06:40:18 <pikhq_> I anticipate Heinlein would have at least half the fandom otherwise.
06:41:58 <Sgeo> I guess liking Libera doesn't really prove anything, does it >.>
06:42:14 <Sgeo> That's just music, and I don't understand most of the lyrics
06:42:47 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsmA4imWeqA
06:46:02 <shachaf> kmc: I found a worse offender for sparking useless IRC discussions full of hand-waving and pet broken explanations than "what is monad?".
06:47:34 <pikhq_> shachaf: "What is functional programming?"
06:47:58 <shachaf> I think that question ought to win an award or something.
06:48:06 <shachaf> It's like the busy-beaver function of IRC arguments.
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06:48:52 <ion> Why Every Proof that .999... = 1 is Wrong http://youtu.be/wsOXvQn3JuE
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06:52:54 <pikhq_> That is... Definitely the most painful Vi Hart video.
06:53:16 <pikhq_> The "humor" such as it is just falls really, really flat.
06:53:19 <Sgeo> Is she saying that it's not equal, or that common proofs don't work?
06:53:23 <Sgeo> I didn't watch yet?
06:53:24 <ion> pikhq: Meh, i liked it.
06:53:31 <pikhq_> Sgeo: She's saying it's April 1st.
06:54:06 <ion> It’s April 0.999…?
06:55:41 <Sgeo> pikhq_, hit your head with this video, which I think is serious http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myfZ8hmmApE
07:00:20 <monqy> not even going to bother
07:01:06 <pikhq_> Sgeo: All I get from that is that omnipotence is a damned confusing property for anything to have.
07:01:37 <pikhq_> And that whoever did this video is retarded.
07:01:39 <Sgeo> pikhq_, how does a "set of all powers" become a "universal set" in the mathematical sense that the video is using?
07:01:56 <pikhq_> Sgeo: It doesn't, this guy is retarded.
07:02:42 <pikhq_> Correction, maximally retarded.
07:03:26 <Sgeo> I never really payed attention to this person's math
07:03:38 <Sgeo> Just the attempted connection between "universal set" and "set of all powers"
07:04:25 <pikhq_> Honestly, this feels a lot like some of those fundies on Youtube willfully misunderstanding everything to desperately cling on to things.
07:05:14 <Sgeo> It doesn't matter what the issue is, there will be idiots who attempt to support their side, and fail miserably
07:05:51 <elliott> Although I can't follow the mathematics, I was also skeptical of that first assumption that God represents a "universal set". God is often said to be preexistent, which means that such a being would be beyond the existent world of time & space. That would make the presence or absence of God unknowable and undefinable by religious dogma. I consider attempts at proving or disproving the existence (or preexistence) of God, by use of t
07:05:51 <elliott> he scriptures, science or math, to be futile.
07:07:23 <Sgeo> The "there are idiots who will fail to support 1+1=2" thing also applies to comments on the video.
07:07:38 <Sgeo> *successfully support
07:07:58 <pikhq_> Not that you can meaningfully "prove" things scientifically, unless by "prove" you mean "estabilish that foo is most likely the case", anyways.
07:08:51 <pikhq_> Sgeo: And, yeah. Regardless of how right or wrong something is, there are idiots who will support it.
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07:58:21 <pikhq_> --- www.l.google.com ping statistics ---
07:58:21 <pikhq_> 21 packets transmitted, 0 received, 100% packet loss, time 19999ms
08:08:26 <qfr> pikhq_ no, many things are unsupported
08:09:24 <pikhq_> qfr: Only because the set of things is unbound, but the set of idiots is definitely bound.
08:09:33 <pikhq_> And, of course, an individual idiot can only support finite things.
08:09:51 <pikhq_> If we had infinite idiots, this would not be the case.
08:13:13 <Sgeo> What's with the l?
08:17:46 <pikhq_> I dunno; the DNS redirects there though.
08:18:03 <pikhq_> Well, rather, the reverse DNS comes up as that.
08:18:31 <fizzie> They do quite a lot of it.
08:18:36 <fizzie> api.google.com is an alias for api.l.google.com.
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08:20:04 <fizzie> Both google.com and l.google.com have the same nameservers, though they do have somewhat different TTL values.
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09:02:43 <shubshub> I wanna Make my own version of brainfuck
09:02:44 <HackEgo> shubshub: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
09:05:02 <elliott> c.f. http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Phantom_Hoover
09:05:12 <elliott> you make one by deciding on uhh meanings for new commands or
09:05:16 <elliott> change the existing instructions to be different
09:05:52 <elliott> not sure what you're having difficulty understanding
09:06:03 <elliott> explaining what the new brainfuck-like language does
09:06:08 <shubshub> How do I change the commands what do I use Please Help im New to this
09:06:28 <elliott> you don't use any tool, you just describe it in english... if you want to change an interpreter to do your language then that's different
09:06:31 <elliott> you'll have to modify its code
09:06:42 <elliott> but the wiki accepts unimplemented languages so that's by no means a requirement
09:06:45 <elliott> uhhh from any brainfuck implementation
09:06:51 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_implementations here's a whole bunch
09:07:37 <shubshub> is there Maybe an Interpreter written In Batch???
09:07:46 <elliott> i'm not sure batch is powerful enough
09:07:57 <elliott> i don't know enough about batch to say for sure, I don't use Windowd
09:08:22 <shubshub> Basically to change what something is you do set something=blah
09:08:45 <shubshub> then you can do set something=%something:h=g% then it would become blag
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09:09:53 <shubshub> with something like that would it be possible or is it completely impossible?
09:10:42 <shubshub> Im Gonna Make a BrainFuck Interpreter and call it BatchFuck
09:10:50 <elliott> you'll need at least looping
09:11:09 <elliott> you'll need to be able to do that
09:11:43 <shubshub> Im pretty sure you can by doing ( / will mean a new line btw) :first / echo hi / goto first
09:14:55 <shubshub> does BrainFuck Have Networking Capabilities?
09:15:07 <Lumpio-> It does if you pipe its output into netcat
09:15:28 <Lumpio-> ...then again it's not a standard tool
09:15:37 <Lumpio-> Also why Do You Randomly capitalize Stuff?
09:15:42 <shubshub> well then since it doesnt then Batch will be totally possible
09:16:23 <elliott> batch can't necessarily do any computational task not involving networking...
09:16:46 <Lumpio-> https://github.com/masarakki/r-fxxk
09:17:14 <Lumpio-> https://github.com/masarakki/r-fxxk/blob/master/lib/r-fxxk.rb <- although it doesn't even seem to support reading input ¬u¬
09:17:23 <Lumpio-> Then again the only thing people use brainfuck for is writing hello world so who needs input
09:17:28 <elliott> and it says "BrainFuck" sigh
09:17:43 <shubshub> People have Made Games In brainfuck
09:18:04 <elliott> does german capitalise "in"
09:18:14 <elliott> shubshub: is your caps lock broken
09:18:17 <Lumpio-> shubshub: Why do you capitalize random words
09:18:31 <elliott> i have a nasty force of hobbit myself
09:18:32 <Lumpio-> Stop doing it, it looks pre
09:18:50 <elliott> loosen up a little and let hte magic of capitalisation into your life
09:20:47 <shubshub> lul wtf someone wrote a brainfuck intepreter in BrainFuck
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09:22:02 <fizzie> Hey, where's... oh, there it is.
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09:24:12 <shubshub> elliot what would be the easiest brainfuck interpreter to understand on that Link you gave me????
09:24:13 <Lumpio-> Why not write a brainfuck interpreter in brainfuck
09:24:28 <shubshub> BrainFucks to hard for me to understand so Im gonna make my own
09:24:32 <Lumpio-> That's the best way to prove it's turing complete.
09:24:41 <Lumpio-> Because if something can implement brainfuck, it's turing complete.
09:24:55 <Lumpio-> This argument is correct because billions of religious people use the same argument to justify their life.
09:25:04 <Lumpio-> And billions of people can't possibly be wrong.
09:25:57 <Lumpio-> I wrote brainfuck in pure functional style just to shove it at the face of people who claim functional programming languages can't solve everything an imperative language can
09:28:40 <fizzie> The easiest to understand is obviously:
09:28:42 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
09:28:44 <shubshub> can I write it in another language then convert it into Brainfuck?
09:29:17 <fizzie> Lines 294-306 + 351-372 of that are the clearest brainfuck interp.
09:29:47 <fizzie> That was the link, right there.
09:29:55 <fungot> shubshub: haha. " i heard it's good"
09:30:03 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
09:30:08 <fizzie> Also what a fortuitous response.
09:30:24 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
09:30:30 <shubshub> its freaking Impossible for me to read
09:30:49 <elliott> did you make sure to read the right lines
09:31:14 <shubshub> I honestly can not understand it
09:31:15 <fizzie> I do hope those were the right lines. It was a very quick glance.
09:31:36 <elliott> don'tworry i can't understand that one wiether
09:32:10 <shubshub> can i write It In BASIC then convert it Into brainfuck code?
09:32:51 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BFBASIC
09:32:53 <fizzie> ^bf ,[>,]<[.<]!skrow ti tub
09:33:00 <elliott> that's what the game is written in
09:33:43 <lambdabot> I have a Haskell interpreter (written in brainfuck)
09:33:47 -!- shubshub has changed nick to shubshub_has_bee.
09:33:49 <lambdabot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\...
09:33:52 -!- shubshub_has_bee has changed nick to shubshub.
09:34:25 <shubshub> wow I didnt even know my nickname was registered to me^_^
09:34:51 <elliott> fizzie: tell me about speech recognition
09:34:54 <elliott> the nitty gritty theory of it
09:34:57 <fungot> shubshub: assuming ( number? 2) t not work on them? please?
09:35:04 <fungot> shubshub: f! h;! " icfp has been full of exciting conversations on esoteric and brainfuck!
09:35:10 <fungot> shubshub: my intentions are not fnord, last checked fnord) ( i know of
09:35:26 <elliott> fizzie: lots of mathematics and symbols and the like preferably, i like it raw
09:39:17 <fizzie> Well, I mean, it's just \argmax_{words} P(words | sound), that's all there is to it.
09:41:38 <shubshub> MY BASIC CODE ISNT COMPILIONG!!!!!\
09:41:39 <fizzie> Well okay sometimes you Bayes it up and P(sound | words) P(words) instead.
09:42:11 <elliott> ok teach me about something that isnt
09:42:30 <shubshub> Here is My script: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=L9zEYWbV whats wrong with it???
09:42:47 <shubshub> Im Using http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Execute_Brain****/BASIC/QuickBasic btw
09:42:57 <shubshub> http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Execute_Brain****/BASIC/QuickBasic
09:43:19 <Sgeo> What does MID$ do?
09:43:29 <Sgeo> I'm wondering how instruction knows to stop reading characters
09:43:45 <Sgeo> To stop at the end of lol or keep going for lolol, for example
09:44:32 <Sgeo> shubshub, did the original source you used just interpret normal Brainfuck? > < + - etc?
09:44:51 <Sgeo> Because in that case, it's quite likely that you'll need to do more than just replace those
09:45:04 <Sgeo> Because your interpreter will need to find the boundaries for each instruction now
09:45:13 <Sgeo> The original one just knew that one character is one instructions
09:45:21 <Sgeo> And I suspect that your modifications did not change that fact.
09:45:27 <elliott> bfbasic does not run arbitrary basic.
09:45:34 <elliott> it compiles a restricted dialect.
09:45:43 <Sgeo> ...this is bfbasic?
09:45:55 <shubshub> Im trying to make Basic code then convert it to BrainFuck
09:46:16 <Sgeo> Well, I don't know anything about Basic or BFBasic, just saying what I'm guessing based on what you've said
09:46:57 <Sgeo> Oh, well, what I said wouldn't be a compile error
09:47:20 <Sgeo> shubshub, you should try to get it to work on QuickBasic before attempting to port to BFBasic
09:47:23 <Sgeo> One step at a time, etc.
09:47:25 <fizzie> elliott: Well uh I guess it's pretty nifty that http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/stuffs.png I just wrote that for the homeworks of one of our courses.
09:47:40 <elliott> fizzie: That's nice. Can you say it in-channel?
09:48:06 <shubshub> sorry its Just Im a One of those stick with what I orignally had in mind people
09:48:25 <Sgeo> Q(theta, theta^old) = sum from t=2 to T sum i=1 to 6 sum k=1 to 6 ... I don't know what that letter is
09:48:32 <fizzie> elliott: Um, okay, it was just $Q(\TT, \TT^{\mathrm{old}}) = \sum_{t=2}^T \sum_{i=1}^6 \sum_{k=1}^6 \xi(z_{t-1,i},z_{t,k}) \ln a_{i,k} + \sum_{t=1}^T \sum_{k=1}^6 \sum_{d=1}^5 \gamma(z_{t,k}) \left[ -\frac{(x_{t,d}-\mu_{k,d})^2}{2\sigma_{k,d}^2} - \frac{1}{2} \ln 2\pi\sigma_{k,d}^2 \right]$.
09:48:44 <elliott> shubshub: What? It's simple.
09:48:52 <elliott> It's just a bunch of sums.
09:49:10 <fizzie> Sgeo: It's a lowercase xi.
09:49:28 <shubshub> Teach me How to write the interpreter In BFBASIC
09:49:38 <Sgeo> shubshub, first, figure it out with QuickBasic
09:49:44 <Sgeo> How are you trying to compile it?
09:50:19 <Sgeo> shubshub, well, the interpreter you found is not written in BFBASIC. It's written in a language that is different but looks similar.
09:53:13 <Sgeo> shubshub, so first, try to obtain QuickBasic. Try to see if you can get the original code to run. Once you've done that, try to modify it
09:53:31 <Sgeo> shubshub, alternatively: Try compiling the original code with BFBASIC. Observe it fail to compile.
09:54:10 <Sgeo> shubshub, and what did you try?
09:54:20 <Sgeo> Sorry, suggested too many things at once
09:54:50 <shubshub> I used the original basic code and it failed to compile
09:55:39 <Sgeo> shubshub, ok. So the code you found will not work in BFBASIC. If you still want to stick to that code, it should run on QuickBasic.
09:57:34 <shubshub> Id Like something that I can compile Into BrainFuck code so it makes me look so pro
09:58:14 <elliott> i can assure you there is little risk of that
09:58:41 <elliott> sorry i was talking to fizzie
10:04:21 <shubshub> SOMeone tell me how to download the C2BF compiler pleASE?
10:04:42 <shubshub> https://c2bf.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/brainfuck/c2bf/trunk/ i dont know which files I Need
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10:06:15 <elliott> you need svn to download it
10:06:20 <elliott> http://subversion.tigris.org/
10:06:29 <elliott> http://subversion.apache.org/
10:07:02 <elliott> you will also need a c compiler and a unix build environment
10:08:53 <shubshub> Quick what does this say In Brain fuck?: +++++++++++++++++++++++++[>++>+++>++++>+++++<<<<-]+++++++++++++++++++++++++>>---.>+.+++++++..+++.<<<+++++++.>>+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.<<<+.
10:09:16 <elliott> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++[>++>+++>++++>+++++<<<<-]+++++++++++++++++++++++++>>---.>+.+++++++..+++.<<<+++++++.>>+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.<<<+.
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10:09:35 <shubshub> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++[>++>+++>++++>+++++<<<<-]+++++++++++++++++++++++++>>---.>+.+++++++..+++.<<<+++++++.>>+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.<<<+.
10:10:17 <shubshub> +++++++++++++++++++++++++[>++>+++>++++>+++++<<<<-]+++++++++++++++++++++++++>>---.---.+++++++..+++.<<+++++++.>>----------.++++++++++++++.----.+++++.---------------.+++++++++++++.---------.------.<<.>>.+++++.-------.+++++++++++++..---------.+++++++.<<.>>+++++++.-----------.+++++++++++++.<++++++++++++++++.>--.<++++++.>++.<------.<.>>++.-----.---.+++++.<+++.<.>>.<+++.+.>-.
10:10:30 <shubshub> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++[>++>+++>++++>+++++<<<<-]+++++++++++++++++++++++++>>---.---.+++++++..+++.<<+++++++.>>----------.++++++++++++++.----.+++++.---------------.+++++++++++++.---------.------.<<.>>.+++++.-------.+++++++++++++..---------.+++++++.<<.>>+++++++.-----------.+++++++++++++.<++++++++++++++++.>--.<++++++.>++.<------.<.>>++.-----.---.+++++.<+++.<.>>.<+++.+.>-.
10:10:30 <fungot> HELLO ESOTERIC CHANNEL SHUBSHUB WROTE THIS
10:10:42 -!- mvta has joined.
10:10:53 <HackEgo> mvta: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
10:10:53 -!- mvta has left.
10:10:59 <elliott> !bf_txtgen HELLO ESOTERIC CHANNEL SHUBSHUB WROTE THIS
10:11:04 <EgoBot> 254 ++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++>+++++>++<<<<-]>++.>>-.<<++++..+++.>>>++++.<<-.<++++.----.+++++.>.<--.>++++.>--.>.<.<-.>--.<++++++..>++++.<--.>>.<<+++++++.>+++.<++.>------.<<+.>>++++++.<.>------.>.<<++.<-.---.>---.>+++.>.<<.>+++.+.<-.>>----------------------. [507]
10:11:17 <shubshub> !bf_txtgen WTF ITS THAT EASY WHY DIDNT YOU TELL ME
10:11:20 <EgoBot> 260 ++++++++++++++[>++++++>++>+++++>+++++<<<<-]>+++.---.>>.<++++.>>+++.<<<.-.>.<+.>>>-.<-----.<<.>.<---------------.>>.++++++++++++++++++.++++++.<.>--.>.<++.<.<-.>>>+.<<<.>>>+++++.<-----.<.>+++++.>+.<----.<.>-.<<+.+++++++..>.>>--.--------.<<----------------------. [841]
10:16:40 <shubshub> '""""'""""'""""""'""'"""'""'""'""'""'""'""'""'""'""'"""'""""'""""""'"""'""""""""""'"""""'""""""""'""
10:16:40 <shubshub> """"""'""""""""'""""""""'""""""""'""""""""'""""""""'""""""""'""""""""'""""""""'""""""""'""""""""'"""
10:16:40 <shubshub> """""'""""""""'""""""""'""""""""'""""""""'""""""""'""""""""'""""""""'""""""""'""""""""'""""""""'""""
10:16:40 <shubshub> """"'""""""""'""""""""'""""""""'""""""""'""""""""'""""""""'""""""""'""""""""'""""""""'"""""""'"""'""
10:16:40 <shubshub> ""'""""""'"""""""'""'"""'"""""""'"""'""""'""""""'""'"""'""'"""""""'""'"""'""""""'"""'""""""""""'""""
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10:17:19 <shubshub> didnt plan that well it was spose to translate it
10:17:28 <shubshub> I did ^UnReadable then pasted 98 lines
10:19:36 <Sgeo> shubshub, EgoBot does not know every esolang
10:22:53 <fizzie> And fungot (whose prefix ^ is) even less so.
10:22:54 <fungot> fizzie: i'll do some more list stuff, then the user will insert a sentence stating this fact in a way.
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10:38:16 <shubshub> bai be back tommorow for more great fun
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10:46:08 <fizzie> /topic the channel of great fun | logs
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14:14:55 <listrophy> just added a new lang to the wiki: ellipsis
14:17:22 <nortti> isn't that basicaly unary
14:20:45 <Gregor> I was expecting elliott to say that.
14:24:11 <Gregor> Feel free to add it to the pile: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Brainfuck_derivatives
14:24:43 <Gregor> Then, take a deep breath, and write an esolang that isn't a BF derivative ;)
14:24:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Then dig a nice little hole and bury yourself in it (am I being too much of an asshole I can never tell);
14:25:51 <listrophy> to be fair, i did write it not knowing the wiki existed
14:26:19 <Gregor> In spite of PH being kind of a dick, we're just trying to expand your horizons! 8-D
14:26:21 <listrophy> thought compiling to bf was novel. obviously i'm quite mistaken. =)
14:27:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Only kind of a dick???? listrophy, your mother never loved you because you made a brainfuck derivative
14:27:46 <Gregor> OK, in spite of PH being an enormous, erect, throbbing equine phallus.
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14:28:15 <Gregor> We're also super-mature in this channel/community.
14:28:30 <listrophy> Gregor: nah. ph is ok. i like the cut of her jib
14:29:11 <nortti> I have to confess that I have made a brainfuck derivative. It was called functional bf and I don't remember that much of it except it used lambdas
14:29:17 <Phantom_Hoover> why did you go from talking about me to talking about some boat suddenly
14:29:23 <ais523> elliott: three mdashes in a row in the topic? seriously?
14:29:42 <Gregor> Apparently one of my languages was reclassified as a BF derivative :(
14:29:46 <Gregor> (Which is fair since it's a BF derivative)
14:30:50 <boily> Writing esoteric languages isn't normal, but on Brainfuck derivatives, it is. BF derivatives: never once.
14:30:55 -!- Gregor has set topic: You guys Pinkie Pie just wants everypony to smiiiile ——————————————————————————Gregor | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
14:33:03 <Gregor> DISAPPOINTED BY LACK OF HATRED HERE.
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15:35:49 <nortti> https://p.twimg.com/ArXcPfoCIAE1r0G.jpg:large
15:38:28 <Ngevd> Phantom_Hoover, how's your brick?
15:39:02 <Ngevd> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ellipsis
15:39:49 <Ngevd> Phantom_Hoover's brick may be interested
15:40:22 <nortti> we talked avbout it before you joined
15:40:35 <Ngevd> So, Phantom_Hoover's brick is in use?
15:41:22 <Ngevd> But then we'll only have at least 0 IOCCC winners!
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15:43:05 <nortti> Gregor: how does your jit in your IOCCC entry work?
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15:46:02 <ais523> Ngevd: Ellipsis seems to be an uninteresting Unary derivative
15:46:10 <ais523> so it's a BF derivative derivative, more than anything else
15:46:51 <Ngevd> Ooh, I made one of those many years ago
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15:50:24 <ais523> listrophy: is it your language? sorry, we just get a huge number of BF-alikes in here and it starts to get repetitive after a while
15:53:05 <ais523> have you seen Unary before? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Unary
15:53:10 <ais523> if not, congratulations on rediscovering it
15:53:21 <oklopol> there should be a wiki for noobs where bf derivatives are ok, and another one for us true esolangers, which would be nice and empty except for some archaic jewels.
15:53:28 <listrophy> ais523: so, i wrote it to make fun of semicolon, ignorant of esolangs.org
15:53:40 <ais523> listrophy: that seems reasonable enough
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15:54:31 <listrophy> ais523: and happily enough discovered that since the unicode char for ellipsis is 3 bytes, you can write a compiler to handle both unicode and '...'
15:54:51 <ais523> just by checking the length of the file?
15:55:40 <oklopol> i should make a habit out of turning all my undecidability proofs into esolangs
15:56:24 <oklopol> has anyone languagized PCP?
15:56:52 <oklopol> PCP's a big thing here in turku
15:56:53 <Ngevd> I managed to make a brainfuck derivative before I knew what brainfuck was
15:58:34 <fizzie> Obligatory nitpicking: the "Unicode character" doesn't really have a size in bytes; various different encodings of it have various different sizes; the UTF-8 form is three bytes.
15:59:15 <listrophy> fizzie: and thanks for the correction
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16:15:06 <Gregor> <nortti> Gregor: how does your jit in your IOCCC entry work?
16:15:08 <Gregor> Quite well, thank you.
16:15:46 <nortti> Gregos: does it compile with c2bf ;D
16:17:31 <Gregor> Well, you can't JIT in BF regardless, so no.
16:18:54 <nortti> I can't see how it works with multilple architectures
16:19:03 <Gregor> Quite well, thank you.
16:20:34 <Gregor> I could actually explain it, but I'd rather you bang your head against it a bit more first 8-D
16:21:39 <Ngevd> I'm not entirely sure how either C or JITs work in general
16:21:50 <Ngevd> So it may take me a few years
16:22:03 <Ngevd> And I may soon lack both a head and a wall
16:28:20 <Gregor> nortti'll figure it out I'm sure.
16:29:04 <ais523> `addquote <Ngevd> And I may soon lack both a head and a wall
16:29:08 <HackEgo> 847) <Ngevd> And I may soon lack both a head and a wall
16:30:35 <Gregor> nortti: Here's a hint that's not a useful hint: It is known not to work on SPARC and PA-RISC, although the reason it doesn't work on the latter is uninteresting (stack grows up)
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16:34:32 <ais523> "You have to download a total of 3,167 M. This download should take about 1 second with your connection."
16:34:39 <ais523> I don't think my connection is /that/ good!
16:34:50 <Gregor> That's some fast webertubes
16:35:24 <oklopol> i routinely get 7M a second
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16:37:13 <ais523> I'm upgrading Ubuntu to 12.04
16:38:06 <nortti> ais523: why are you using ubuntu?
16:38:08 <ais523> now it's estimating the download time required as about 1 and a half hours, which seems a lot more plausible
16:38:23 <ais523> nortti: it's what came on my last laptop originally, and I've been too lazy to switch distro
16:38:40 <nortti> ais523: pre-installed linux?
16:38:40 <oklopol> what kind of third world country do you live in
16:39:00 <ais523> although it /still/ came with a Windows key on the keyboard
16:39:25 <fizzie> I speedtest.net'd the workstation at work just for giggles; it said something like 860Mbps down. That's still not quite as good as all that, especially since I suppose that 3,167 M was in bytes.
16:39:40 <nortti> ais523: is that done with something other than netbooks and braindead "my first operating system" distros
16:40:04 <ais523> nortti: it was Dell, back when they were trying to frighten Microsoft into giving them lower prices for Windows
16:40:16 <ais523> they actually went through with their threat to sell preinstalled Linux for a while to show they were serious, I got it then
16:40:24 <nortti> ais523: and they still include windows key?
16:40:38 <ais523> as far as I can tell, they just took a standard Windows laptop and swapped out the OS
16:40:58 <ais523> it even came with Windows documentation :)
16:41:42 <nortti> ais523: remembers me about this computer when my friend bought it as used. He didn't want windows xp preinstalled so they just taped windows license to the bottom so they could charge as much money as usually
16:42:25 <ais523> this computer, the Windows license was on the outside of the box, which actually really impressed me
16:48:08 <nortti> Gregor: my brain is hurting
16:48:32 <Gregor> You must work THROUGH the pain 8-D
16:49:30 <ais523> oh, it went back to 1 second
16:49:39 <ais523> was getting a download rate of 3050 PB/s for a bit
16:49:42 <ais523> or claiming to, at least
16:49:49 <ais523> but then it changed its mind again
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17:50:49 <Gregor> Unicode has a codepoint "INVISIBLE TIMES"
17:50:55 <Gregor> That ... that is amazing.
17:51:40 <ion> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2%E2%81%A23 “Wolfram|Alpha doesn't know how to interpret your input.” :-(
17:54:03 <ais523> hmm, I wonder why this distro upgrade wants to remove lzma
17:54:17 <ais523> removing ghdl I can understand, it's probably unmaintained (I still need it, but I guess I'll install from source)
17:54:56 <ion> Perhaps it’s being replaced with xz.
17:56:28 <ion> (It can handle lzma files, too.)
17:58:20 <pikhq_> ais523: lzma is deprecated.
17:58:32 <ais523> pikhq_: what's the replacement?
17:59:00 <pikhq_> Same compression algorithm, has support for .lzma files for backwards compatibility.
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18:19:42 <ion> Glorious Master Translator http://dontevenreply.com/view.php?post=110
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18:36:11 <nortti> thinking about it --c-=c-c-- with (at least two cell) arrays and pointers would be turing complete even without dynamic memory allocation
18:37:06 <nortti> if only memory was stack
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18:47:49 <ais523> dpkg: libc6-i686: dependency problems, but removing anyway as you requested:
18:47:57 <ais523> let's hope this works out :)
18:48:21 <ais523> OK, new libc's in place
18:48:34 <ais523> that would be a bad moment for a crash :)
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18:49:13 <nortti> ais523: is your new libc also glibc?
18:49:38 <ais523> it's called "libc-bin", I'd be surprised if it wasn't based on glibc
18:49:43 <ais523> (although it may well be eglibc)
18:50:37 <nortti> I am thinking about moving my own distro to uClibc
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19:05:07 <nortti> ais523: or maybe I switch to libc4! BWAHAHAHA
19:08:00 <itidus20> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=wolfram
19:15:49 <ais523> hmm, that was vaguely worrying, a dialog box opened with an error icon and a bunch of unreadable text
19:15:59 <ais523> and then disappeared again
19:16:07 <ais523> a fraction of a second later
19:16:37 <pikhq_> Smaller than uclibc, full-featured, fast: what's not to like?
19:20:08 <kmc> doesn't work with mosh :/
19:20:40 <kmc> i don't remember, but other people were looking into it
19:20:54 <kmc> or, did look into it
19:21:09 <pikhq_> I'm going to bet it's relying on glibc's behavior of defining a couple feature test macros if you don't define any.
19:21:18 <pikhq_> (which is, of course, non-compliant)
19:22:18 <pikhq_> Defines _BSD_SOURCE and _SVID_SOURCE, which suffices to get some non-POSIX code working.
19:22:52 <pikhq_> Of course, modern code should define _POSIX_C_SOURCE 200809L or _GNU_SOURCE.
19:23:38 <nortti> pikhq_: well musl looks awesome. I wil take a look at it later
19:24:21 <pikhq_> Hmm. Then again... mosh is in C++, isn't it?
19:24:54 <pikhq_> In which case you're probably running into some edge case with musl and libstdc++ interacting, which is probably a musl bug.
19:32:18 <nortti> pikhq_: is it possible to use musl with linux 2.4 or uClinux
19:32:51 <pikhq_> Linux 2.4, maybe. uClinux, probably not without some porting.
19:33:19 <pikhq_> Though, using it with Linux 2.4 will *certainly* not work with threads; Linux 2.4 threading was Broken.
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19:35:45 <pikhq_> LinuxThreads did not comply with POSIX behavior at all, produced some rather odd behavior with scheduling, and claimed SIGUSR1 and SIGUSR2 for its own purposes.
19:36:00 <pikhq_> Oh, also, each thread had its own process ID.
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19:37:20 <ais523> pikhq_: each thread /still/ has its own process ID; but getpid doesn't return it, it returns a different number
19:37:36 <ais523> ooh, the terminal is /almost/ working, just an error message on load
19:37:55 <pikhq_> Anyways, LinuxThreads sucked, and NPTL is only supported on 2.6+.
19:37:57 <ais523> oh, but return isn't; doesn't matter, I can still use control-J
19:37:58 <elliott> ais523: I played Crawl some more and dislike it even less now
19:38:13 <pikhq_> (or crazy-ass backports that will probably break if you look at them wrong)
19:38:16 <elliott> mostly because I stopped being a kobold
19:38:22 <ais523> what combo are you using now?
19:38:41 <elliott> it solved my two most annoying problems
19:38:44 <ais523> hmm, I don't think that's a very good combo
19:38:47 <ais523> what were the problems?
19:38:49 <elliott> (a) killing anything took ages
19:39:14 <ais523> you'll run into problems later rather than earlier with that build, I think
19:39:15 <elliott> ais523: it doesn't seem like a bad combo but "what do i know"
19:39:21 <elliott> i coerced monqy into picking it for me, so
19:39:30 <elliott> and ds is white (not grey) when i pick ak
19:39:30 <ais523> due to having no way to kill midgame uniques
19:39:35 <elliott> so it's not disrecommended
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19:39:39 <ais523> and yes, DS is not that bad for AK
19:40:04 <ais523> which god are you going with?
19:40:18 <ais523> wasn't thinking for a moment
19:41:21 <elliott> 20:41 <elliott> !hs elliott
19:41:21 <elliott> 20:41 <Sequell> 77. elliott the Impaler (L15 DsAK), worshipper of Lugonu, blasted by Aizul (poison arrow) on D:17 on 2012-04-26, with 84580 points after 43254 turns and 3:34:58.
19:41:41 <elliott> that was a really stupid death and entirely my fault; I quaffed a potion of curing with like 14 HP while Aizul was right next to me
19:41:53 <elliott> I should have either read a ?tele a few turns ago or cast enter the abyss
19:42:42 <elliott> ais523: I'm not sure why you think DsAK isn't a very good combo (though I ask out of curiosity rather than doubting)
19:43:07 <ais523> it has no special burst attack
19:43:36 <ais523> with, say, Be you can berserk in an emergency; with casters you can reserve your MP for emergencies
19:43:39 <elliott> ais523: well, it has banish :)
19:43:49 <ais523> things start resisting that after a while
19:43:58 <elliott> they already did by my point in the game
19:44:03 <elliott> ais523: oh, and DsAK can go spellcastery
19:44:07 <elliott> I just went for heavy armour instead
19:44:53 <elliott> ais523: anyway, I think it's better (for me) to have no emergency rush kinda thing
19:44:57 <elliott> because I just use it whenever there's the slightest bit of trouble
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19:45:21 <elliott> I'd much rather have a powerful normal attack, and an emergency escape mechanism
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19:46:19 <elliott> anyway, they should just eliminate the earlygame and I'd probably like Crawl more than I dislike it
19:46:26 <elliott> earlygame, food, and identification
19:47:13 <ais523> elliott: oh, you currently more dislike it than like it?
19:47:26 <elliott> yes, but not enough to stop me playing it
19:47:30 <elliott> I dislike NetHack more than I like it, too
19:47:39 <elliott> I haven't played a roguelike I like more than I dislike yet
19:48:08 <ais523> I play Crawl now and again, but I nearly always die either to a typo (often boredom-induced), or to something I couldn't have known without spoilers
19:48:34 <elliott> I use Henzell on pretty much everything that looks like it could be even vaguely scary
19:48:46 <elliott> and yeah, I usually die due to doing something stupid in the earlygame because it's tedious
19:48:54 <ais523> the other thing I don't like about the game is the excessive amount of randomness, which makes it hard to figure out anyone's stats
19:48:56 <elliott> but I find it quite fun and less luck-based after that
19:50:00 <ais523> none of the tabs were capable of scrolling
19:50:04 <ais523> nor could I open new pages in it
19:50:06 <ais523> so it was kind-of useless
19:52:47 <elliott> ais523: that's Firefox's normal mode of operation
19:53:16 <elliott> TODO: reply to prgmr, reply to THE ALAN DIPERT, [redacted]
19:53:37 <elliott> hmm, I wonder whether I should reply or reply to all
19:55:58 <ais523> elliott: reply to all three in the same email
19:56:15 <elliott> err, I meant whether to use reply or reply to all on this prgmr email
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19:56:23 <ais523> elliott: who was CCed in?
19:56:27 <elliott> the email I got is from the support person, cc'd to luke (the owner/sysadmin)
19:56:37 <nortti> pikhq_: can musl be used with pcc or clang
19:56:45 <ais523> compromise, and CC some random person you've never heard of
19:58:11 <ais523> how do I create a new tab in Gnome 3 Epiphany?
19:58:30 <ais523> oh, control-t works, but I was hoping for some way to do it with the mouse
19:58:40 <ais523> perhaps it's just not used to running inside gnome 2
19:58:48 <ais523> and you're meant to use something in the wider interface
19:58:50 <kmc> install xmonad lolololololololololololololololololololo
19:58:51 <ais523> elliott: there isn't a file menu
19:58:57 <ais523> there's exactly one menu, called "web"
19:59:10 <ais523> and it has a "new window" item, but not "new tab"
20:00:13 <elliott> GNOME shouldn't have tabs, anyway
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20:00:40 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:00:51 <lambdabot> shachaf said 7d 1h 35m 8s ago: how predictable !
20:01:00 <pikhq_> Actually, no, wait, pretty sure I've built it in pcc.
20:01:39 <ais523> ooh, Evolution hasn't horribly disintegrated yet, I think
20:02:31 <Taneb> The process, movie, or music festival?
20:02:40 <nortti> pikhq_: I am thinking about clearing my distro of gnu software
20:02:48 <ais523> Taneb: the email (+ related stuff) client
20:03:00 <ais523> nortti: so it'd be notGNU/Linux?
20:03:00 <pikhq_> nortti: Unfortunately, it is going to be Hell to free Linux of GNU stuff.
20:03:13 <pikhq_> At a minimum you need GCC, binutils, and GNU Make.
20:03:25 <elliott> Gregor is way ahead of you
20:03:29 <pikhq_> (and patching so it can use non-GNU sed)
20:03:31 <elliott> pikhq_: only a few files in Linux have FSF copyright
20:03:33 <ais523> pikhq_: gcc is probably replaceable by clang, either now or later
20:03:43 <pikhq_> elliott: *Building* the kernel. :)
20:03:45 <elliott> you don't need gcc, clang can build a working kernel, if you patch it, sort of
20:03:57 <ais523> the other two may be harder to replace
20:03:59 <pikhq_> GNU Make is probably the worst part to replace.
20:04:04 <ais523> I guess you could just rewrite the kernel to use aimake ;)
20:04:11 <elliott> it's meant to be a drop-in replacement for gnu make
20:04:24 <elliott> (with a bunch of extra features that you don't care about)
20:04:32 <nortti> ais52€: I can build linux 2.4 tcc
20:04:39 <ais523> nortti: that's a weird typo
20:04:56 <ais523> is € altgr-4 for you, or some other combination?
20:05:13 <nortti> i have € on same key as e on android
20:05:23 <Taneb> So that's how you get
20:06:56 <kmc> compose e =
20:07:11 <elliott> does anyone have a combining hyphen
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20:09:23 <nortti> elliott: I am not trying to compete with Gregor. I just want to create bit different distro from my own which is pretty boring standard linux 2.4+gnu binutils+busybox+gcc
20:09:54 <elliott> 14:26:19: <Gregor> In spite of PH being kind of a dick, we're just trying to expand your horizons! 8-D
20:10:04 <elliott> Gregor: "Consider how much better life could be thinking with a brick!"
20:10:26 <Taneb> PH may be a dick, but...
20:10:37 <Taneb> I forgot the second part to that sentence
20:10:55 <olsner> maybe you meant "PH may be a dickbutt"?
20:11:16 <elliott> 14:27:46: <Gregor> OK, in spite of PH being an enormous, erect, throbbing equine phallus.
20:11:19 <elliott> I think Gregor has something to tell us.
20:11:32 <elliott> 14:28:30: <listrophy> Gregor: nah. ph is ok. i like the cut of her jib
20:11:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wait, you're a /lesbian/ vampire?
20:12:48 <elliott> 14:29:23: <ais523> elliott: three mdashes in a row in the topic? seriously?
20:13:41 <HackEgo> 339) <elliott> oerjan: why so potable ...... <oerjan> DRINK ME
20:13:52 <olsner> "We noticed you have not accepted our invitation to join Stack Overflow Careers."
20:13:58 <ais523> you can do another four if you're in the mood for deleting
20:14:04 <elliott> olsner: you can accept it and then not create a profile
20:14:04 <olsner> they really want me on their site!! I'm so honored
20:14:15 <HackEgo> 825) <Taneb> hang on I have bright idea <Taneb> navajo to f me 1 in 3 people
20:14:18 <HackEgo> 841) <Sgeo> hack and back? <Patashu> works on anything much slower than you <monqy> at the cost of: guilt, hating yourself, me sending you the message "hi" <Patashu> am I also forbidden to cast mephitic cloud and cblink <monqy> i will also send you "hi" if you: kite excessively, use mephitic cloud, -yes
20:14:28 <HackEgo> 838) <elliott> It's... not really links2-optimised. <nortti> elliott: I don't think that any page is links2 optimised
20:14:29 <HackEgo> 799) <shachaf> Lent is a bad habit that people find very difficult to give up.
20:14:46 <HackEgo> *poof* <elliott> oerjan: why so potable ...... <oerjan> DRINK ME
20:14:53 <ais523> wrt 799, I gave up new year's resolutions years ago
20:14:56 <ais523> and have kept that ever since
20:15:12 <ais523> (I don't resolve to make resolutions to fix bad habits, I just sort-of avoid them for a while and the problem fixes itself)
20:16:22 <HackEgo> 38) <ehird> `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny <HackEgo> How hard is that
20:16:46 <ais523> that doesn't look too much like hungarian…
20:16:56 <ais523> although "gy" is a valid hungarian letter
20:17:10 <ais523> (and that's not a representation or anything, "gy" is actually how it's written in Hungarian too)
20:18:11 <nortti> ? Did the number of "38) <elliott> It's... not really links2-optimised. <nortti> elliott: I don't think that any page is links2 optimised" change?
20:18:25 <ion> business as usual http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/04/25/210198.html
20:18:39 <nortti> it shows as 38 on my phone
20:19:27 <HackEgo> 838) <elliott_> (help why are german) <monqy> i play the german version of crawl <elliott_> i
20:19:31 <olsner> hmm, "Finland" was not an accepted location to finish the registration, but "Sweden" was fine
20:19:41 <olsner> and I accidentally a profile, oh well
20:19:49 <elliott> It changed number slightly.
20:19:50 <nortti> or androirc just suck like usual
20:19:56 <HackEgo> 837) <elliott> It's... not really links2-optimised. <nortti> elliott: I don't think that any page is links2 optimised
20:19:57 <elliott> Because I deleted a quote.
20:20:34 <elliott> Gregor: HackEgo's Unicode shit breaks AndroIRC.
20:20:37 <elliott> Can you just get rid of it?
20:20:44 <elliott> nortti: What does that show as?
20:22:18 <nortti> also the new 838 shows as 838
20:23:17 <HackEgo> 122) <AnMaster> alise, marble <AnMaster> marbelus
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20:26:24 * nortti does and doesn't at the same time
20:26:45 <elliott> You are partially covered in large bone plates (AC +2, SH +2).
20:27:45 <ais523> elliott: DS mutations are always positive, or mostly positive, IIRC
20:28:02 <elliott> yeah, but the best i've got is like AC +2, EV -1
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20:33:42 <elliott> hmm, this might be the first time i die to sigmund
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20:49:43 <elliott> hmm, there's a new MediaWiki release out
20:49:47 <elliott> but I'll hold off until 1.19
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21:17:02 <ais523> zzo38: six exclamation marks?
21:19:06 <nortti> zzo38: have I sent you my shell script gopher client you wanted to see?
21:19:35 <zzo38> nortti: Yes I have seen it.
21:19:50 <zzo38> ais523: Do you think five and a half would be better?
21:20:23 <ais523> zzo38: yes, the half an exclamation mark would be an interesting thing to talk about
21:21:46 <nortti> zzo38: comparing our gopher clients it is pretty clear that I like ed and I assume you like vi
21:25:23 <zzo38> nortti: Yes I do like vi
21:26:01 <nortti> zzo38: what do you think of emacs?
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21:26:42 <zzo38> nortti: I think it contains too much bloated but if these are the features which you like then use it; I prefer vi
21:27:55 <nortti> my current ed binary is 6,16kB
21:30:41 <nortti> I dislike all the bloat in vi
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21:32:53 <zzo38> Have you seen bashgopher and Visgopher?
21:34:11 <nortti> I have seen bashgopher which is a very good gopher client but I haven't seeb visgopher
21:35:20 <zzo38> Visgopher is designed only for Windows; I don't know if it will run on Wine, though. But, bashgopher is designed for UNIX. I did make the setup program for Visgopher now, since some people were having problems to install it.
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22:25:51 <zzo38> A few weeks ago I had some dream, I was illithid and in some generic hotel without any name or anything like that (for some reason, in my mind it is Victoria), and had some key I was trying to get rid of. But whenever I was getting rid of it, someone else caught it. And then I received a notice to go to somewhere; following instructions led to a building that I have been to before (as myself, human, but still in the dream!) with many stores and bakery etc, but
22:26:06 <zzo38> And today, I am going to Victoria, as it turns out. Unexpectedly.
22:26:20 <zzo38> (I will go on Victoria Day too; but unexpectedly there is something today too)
22:26:23 <ais523> hmm, so I'm now using Ubuntu 12.04, currently with Unity
22:26:29 <ais523> and… it's actually pretty usable
22:26:51 <ais523> it reminds me of some Windows 7 or OS X-like interface, just rotated 90 degrees
22:28:00 <ais523> could someone nickping me? I want to test something
22:28:33 <zzo38> I have used the newest Ubuntu at FreeGeek. Commands are still the same but menus and graphic interface are changed, the guest account name is not simply "guest" anymore, etc
22:28:40 <zzo38> ais523: How to do that?
22:29:01 <ais523> zzo38: how to do what?
22:29:08 <zzo38> ais523: How to nickping you
22:29:31 <ais523> zzo38: oh, say a line with my nick in
22:30:12 <zzo38> Is it possible to tell one of the bots to do that?
22:30:30 <ais523> the problem is bots would respond too quickly
22:30:33 <ais523> I wanted a bit of a delay
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22:33:09 <elliott> Rule #1 of civility: Always respect fluid. Accept your neighbour who may wish you to be carbon ; consider their desire and enact.
22:34:24 <ais523> elliott: you may be horrified to hear that I'm actually just fine with Unity
22:34:35 <elliott> did they make it less horrible
22:34:46 <ais523> this version is said to be significantly less horrible than the last one
22:34:49 <ais523> yes, and I just upgraded
22:34:50 <elliott> too bad im "done with ubuntue"
22:35:02 <ais523> hmm, now I'm going to reboot, to see how long it takes to boot
22:35:16 <ais523> it booted very slowly this time but the first boot on a new version always is slow
22:35:27 -!- ais523 has quit.
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22:39:26 <ais523> about 40 seconds to login prompt, maybe 10 to 15 more to log in
22:39:35 <ais523> about the same as before, although far from good
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22:45:43 <ais523> figuring out what to do to configure it is often a little complex
22:45:58 <elliott> OS X is still OS X, if anyone was wondering
22:46:02 <ais523> e.g. it requires holding down the left mouse button for several seconds on an icon to reorder them in the task bar
22:46:07 <ais523> elliott: Unity is halfway to OS X too
22:46:18 <ais523> slightly further than Windows 7
22:46:39 <elliott> OS X sort of works only because of the maniacal single-mindedness about it
22:46:45 <elliott> which is why imitations of it are usually really painful
22:47:15 <ais523> Unity seems to have a maniacal single-mindedness about something else, that happens to be quite close to OS X in execution
22:47:38 <ais523> e.g. the window management buttons being in the top left make total sense in Unity even though they don't in Gnome
22:48:21 <ais523> now, let's go reinstall Flash, in preparation for the day we don't need it
22:49:43 <ais523> hmm, fun reviews, there's a debate in the comments about whether it works on various versions of Ubuntu, and whether it's capable of showing the color red
22:50:15 <ais523> and apparently it was installed by default anyway because the fact that I'd accepted the license had been recorded
22:50:22 <ais523> (I uninstalled it for the update because the updator didn't like it)
23:01:49 <TeruFSX> can somebody explain to me why nan!=nan generally
23:02:41 <ais523> TeruFSX: because NaN represents the result of a calculation that produces no result, or an arbitrary result
23:02:53 <TeruFSX> i was trying to explain that to somebody, they did not get it
23:02:58 <ais523> given that 0/0 can reasonably be /any/ number, you can't expect it to return the same value every time
23:03:40 <TeruFSX> why does NULL==NULL then, if nan!=nan?
23:04:06 <TeruFSX> my reasoning is that NULL is a single quantity, just an empty one
23:04:14 <ais523> because NULL isn't a number, but a pointer, and represents something in particular (the absence of a value)
23:04:28 <ais523> note that many languages have their null-equivalent not equal to itself, incidentally
23:04:37 <elliott> how come NaN!=NaN but 42==42
23:04:55 <ais523> there's only one possible value of 42
23:05:13 <ais523> meanwhile, conclusions of Flash tests: Flash works in Firefox and in Konqueror but not in Epiphany
23:05:22 <ais523> and Konqueror confuses Unity
23:05:35 <ais523> I guess Chromium for YouTube would make a lot of sense…
23:05:57 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/8RESf.png "Runs an embedded hypervisor OS, much like the Xbox 360, to squeeze performance out of inferior hardware"
23:06:10 <elliott> wow, reddit, it really *is* easy to solve every problem when you have no idea what words mean
23:06:28 <ais523> OK, is there seriously no way to customize the fonts?
23:06:56 <ais523> hey, and I didn't know this touchpad did multitouch
23:07:33 <ais523> but tapping it with two fingers at once right-clicks, that's pretty much the biggest multitouch giveaway ever
23:08:47 <ais523> seems the multitouchiness isn't being used for anything else, though
23:08:47 <elliott> my touchpad must not be multitouch, then
23:08:58 <ais523> elliott: either that or the drivers don't support it
23:09:01 <elliott> depends how you define "tap" :)
23:09:35 <ais523> elliott: same action as is used to click, just with two fingers at once not one
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23:09:57 <elliott> fair enough, then it is trur
23:09:59 <ais523> wow, this is demonstrating to me just how much I used to tap one end of the touchpad, then the other with another finger, to move the cursor quickly
23:10:04 <elliott> but I would call that a click or a press, not a tap
23:10:11 <ais523> such an operation doesn't work on a multitouch touchpad, but does on a single-touch one
23:10:15 <elliott> the touchpad can support recognising taps as clicks, but it's disabled
23:10:29 <ais523> elliott: a press is longer; a click is a software operation not a hardware one
23:10:37 <elliott> not about length, it's about force
23:10:50 <ais523> oh, I'm using tap-as-click, so it is about length for me
23:10:51 <elliott> i have to depress the touchpad to cause a click; just tapping it won't do anything
23:11:06 <elliott> it's one of those fancy huge-glass-button touchpads
23:11:38 <ais523> meanwhile, is it crazy that I dislike the bar being at the left rather than the bottom only because it's a greater maximum distance to move the mouse?
23:12:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: they haven't done much for a while, have they?
23:12:18 <ais523> elliott: 3DS is their most recent new console, and it isn't that recent
23:12:28 <elliott> wow, the Wii has lasted 6 years
23:12:33 <elliott> that's insane for console hardware
23:12:37 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know of anything, but I don't follow them as much as I used to.
23:12:59 <Phantom_Hoover> haven't consoles been effectively technologically stagnant for that long
23:13:17 <Phantom_Hoover> seeing as the 360 and ps3 haven't undergone any major changes since
23:13:26 * ais523 turns touchpad speed and acceleration up
23:13:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well, the 360 came out in 2005
23:13:50 <elliott> the Wii ... hasn't changed at all
23:14:20 <elliott> ais523: you might be able to disable the multitouch driver if you don't like it
23:14:22 <elliott> or is this a new computer?
23:16:27 <elliott> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
23:16:33 <elliott> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAB
23:17:48 <ais523> elliott: same computer
23:17:57 <ais523> and I don't really dislike it, just have to retrain my muscle memory
23:18:15 <ais523> it doesn't normally take long, just a few days with a new computer and I can typically find all the keys I actually use in the dark
23:20:02 <ais523> the Ubuntu people have done a good job integrating programs with the OS, it seems
23:20:25 <ais523> if someone nickpings me, then the email-and-IM icon lights up, and the menu below it says who nickpinged me
23:23:01 <elliott> they had that before they left gnome 2
23:24:59 <pikhq_> elliott: PS2 is on 13 years and counting.
23:25:10 <elliott> PS2 has not really "survived" :P
23:25:19 <elliott> It just hasn't realised it's dead yet.
23:26:20 <pikhq_> Okay, if we count from time-to-successor, then the 2600 is the ultimate.
23:26:52 <ais523> bleh, so many bugs to deal with, though
23:27:03 <pikhq_> Or, actually. Gameboy.
23:27:28 <pikhq_> 12 years from the Gameboy release to the GBA release.
23:27:49 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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23:30:32 <ais523> obviously to be expected in a beta (the release hasn't hit my mirrors yet)
23:31:05 <elliott> ais523: you /still/ use Konversation?
23:34:50 <ion> Is this dog?
23:36:12 <elliott> ais523: hey, I've written 90% of an email, if I send it as-is do you think they'll notice?
23:36:32 <ais523> depends on what the other 10% is
23:36:43 <ais523> meanwhile, I think I need a better newsreader than XPN
23:36:48 <ais523> it is also reasonably buggy, and more so in this version
23:42:06 <elliott> ais523: can you write a good roguelike for me?
23:42:25 <ais523> elliott: Animist is still in its very early planning stages, and you might not like it anyway
23:42:31 <shachaf> elliott: What does it mean when I really don't like the spelling "ax"?
23:42:40 <elliott> shachaf: it means you're correct
23:42:49 <shachaf> Maybe I should stick to it anyway because my spellchecker (which is set to AMERICAN) doesn't like "axe".
23:42:51 <elliott> ais523: does it have a hunger mechanism
23:43:14 <ais523> elliott: not sure yet, but if it did, it would actually be relevant
23:43:34 <elliott> ais523: Does it have item identification?
23:43:35 <ais523> rather than crawl-like
23:43:43 <ais523> probably all items will be IDed upon encountering them
23:43:51 <ais523> as in, no unIDed items
23:44:00 <elliott> ais523: Does it have a discrete experience level system?
23:44:34 <elliott> YOU HAVE CHOSEN INCORRECTLY
23:44:46 <ais523> although it's discrete along seven different axes
23:45:03 <monqy> what's experience level system
23:45:14 <elliott> ais523: By "discrete", I don't necessarily mean "discrete".
23:45:22 <elliott> ais523: I mean "levelling up as distinct from stats raising gradually".
23:45:45 <ais523> you don't have a level that's distinct from your stats
23:45:46 <elliott> It's okay if you use integerrs.
23:45:53 <ais523> but it uses small integers for stats
23:46:43 <elliott> ais523: Tell me more about Animist!
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23:47:30 <ais523> elliott: it's got reasonably complex tactics (things like facing are part of the game), and strategy is meant to be important yet flexible, and the main mechanic is a sort of entropy mechanic where MP doesn't regenerate over time and you can't gain experience except by spending it
23:47:57 <elliott> ais523: Does it have a boring combat system?
23:48:05 <ais523> depends on what you consider to be boring
23:48:17 <ais523> the combat should ideally involve at least a bit of thought
23:49:30 <elliott> ais523: btw, are any angband variants worth playing?
23:49:46 <ais523> angband is a game for people who enjoy grinding
23:49:56 <ais523> it's very good at satisfying those people, but other people get bored quickly
23:50:04 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
23:50:05 <ais523> thus, it fills an important niche in the market
23:50:43 <elliott> does that apply to all derivatives?
23:51:29 <ais523> yes, they all have the same basic idea
23:51:39 <ais523> some, like ToME, manage to make it even more down that path, somehow
23:52:52 <elliott> http://pastebin.com/XyaTFxGJ haha, what a great death ("Message History" onwards)
23:53:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:59:57 <elliott> ais523: hey, what's the worst roguelike?
00:00:16 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:00:22 <ais523> probably one I've never heard of
00:00:29 <elliott> monqy: hey, what's the worst roguelike?
00:00:56 <elliott> yes, i already established that
00:01:10 <shachaf> I established it *years* ago.
00:01:18 <elliott> i have comprehensive justification
00:01:25 <monqy> worst roguelike is
00:01:29 <monqy> gee is there even one
00:01:29 <shachaf> Mine is both left- *and* right- justified.
00:01:49 <shachaf> elliott: OH NO, PARADOX: nethack is worse than rogue and rogue is worse than nethack
00:02:08 <elliott> 22:13 elliott: I think the best roguelike is probably robotfindskitten
00:02:08 <elliott> 22:14 elliott: there's no grinding, no unforseeable deaths
00:02:08 <elliott> 22:14 elliott: and the level and creature design is interesting
00:02:09 <elliott> 22:14 elliott: also, no food, no item identification, no exp levels
00:02:11 <elliott> 22:14 ais523: it's kind-of simplistic
00:02:13 <elliott> 22:14 elliott: that just means there's no need for spoilers!
00:02:17 <elliott> 22:42 elliott: another good thing about robotfindskitten: no boring combat system
00:02:19 <elliott> 22:43 ais523: no interesting combat system either
00:02:21 <elliott> 22:43 elliott: that's preferable
00:02:56 <elliott> The no-save feature of the Torneko and Shiren series, which is the main premise of roguelike games, was described as "the worst flaw in any RPG is the lack of a decent save system"[14] by Worthplaying.com and "[going] against the very foundation of what an RPG should be" by Gaming Age.[15]
00:06:22 <elliott> ais523: btw, i forget what your opinion on dredmor was
00:06:34 <ais523> elliott: it's addictive in the MMO sort of way
00:07:34 <elliott> ais523: also, if I make a roguelike, should I call it vagrant, it feels like it would sully the name
00:07:47 <ais523> depends on how good it is
00:08:23 -!- Patashu has joined.
00:08:53 <ais523> call it something else then
00:09:00 <elliott> but vagrant is a really good name
00:09:12 <ais523> unless you create something worthy of the name
00:09:29 <shachaf> elliott: You should make a game almost, but not quite, entirely unlike rogue.
00:10:04 <elliott> shachaf: that's my intention
00:10:29 <shachaf> ais523: Have I ever said anything in this channel that wasn't with an intent to annoy?
00:16:07 -!- augur has joined.
00:20:52 <elliott> ais523: what language should I write my roguelike in
00:20:59 <elliott> the answer is objective lolcode
00:21:17 <elliott> i'll simplify it with nonsense query lists
00:21:58 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:22:24 <elliott> maybe i'll do it in java or something, just for the hell of it
00:22:35 -!- augur has joined.
00:23:26 <ais523> OK, so the main issue now is trying to get Evolution working
00:23:32 <ais523> because it isn't accessing any of my mail accounts
00:23:43 <ais523> hmm, except possibly the Yahoo! one
00:25:12 <ais523> OK, I can send, and I can receive via POP3
00:25:19 <ais523> something seems wrong with IMAP, though
00:28:54 -!- const has changed nick to trout.
00:30:14 <ais523> I sent a usenet post to eternal-september.test
00:30:23 <ais523> and a bot saw the test and emailed me to say it had gone through OK :)
00:30:42 <elliott> it managed to parse your insane email?
00:33:24 <elliott> ais523: btw, wikihack is still substantially above nethackwiki almost always in my google results
00:35:43 <ais523> elliott: I didn't send it with the insane email
00:36:00 <ais523> just the standard ais523, nethack4.org (unobfuscated)
00:39:02 <elliott> ais523: I wonder what a roguelike in APL would look like
00:41:22 <ais523> OK, I think I fixed Evolution by deleting and recreating its information about my mail accounts
00:41:46 <ais523> being only IMAP that was broken, I can just redownload the whole things from the servers
00:41:56 <ais523> (if POP had been broken, I'd need to have restored from backups)
00:42:28 <elliott> pop is a horrible protocol
00:42:40 <ais523> it's good at doing the job it's designed for
00:42:46 <ais523> just that job is one that you might not necessarily want
00:43:08 <ais523> (it's fine for me, using Yahoo! purely as a relay and as a buffer for when I'm not online is exactly what I want from it)
00:48:02 <ais523> hmm, I've managed to trigger apport 4 times so far, I think (initctl, compiz, konqueror, gnome-screenshot-tool)
00:48:23 <ais523> this is what happens when you use betas, I guess
00:52:39 -!- pikhq has joined.
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00:55:47 <elliott> ais523: things with antennae can wear helmets, right?
00:57:40 <ais523> the game might distinguish helmets from hats for the purpose
00:58:05 <elliott> that was meant to be a real-world question so I could object to the game :)
01:12:58 <elliott> OK, todo list is now one item shorter.
01:13:56 <elliott> ais523: you want to be the SOA, right?
01:14:27 <elliott> it's an email i have to put in the dns
01:14:32 <elliott> as a technical contact for esolangs.org
01:14:35 -!- calamari has joined.
01:14:58 <ais523> you should typically get the DNS people to put their own email there and forward to you
01:15:19 <ais523> the people who run the DNS server, and/or administer the name
01:15:35 <elliott> the people who run the DNS server are the ones who want the email
01:16:51 <ais523> are they offering to obfuscate it for you?
01:17:12 <ais523> you should probably put your own there anyway, as emails to the DNS are likely to be along the lines of "your server's been hacked"
01:17:12 <elliott> I don't care about spam, I just dislike my email :(
01:17:19 <ais523> create another one and forward it?
01:17:22 <elliott> I'll probably just register another gmail account and forwar- yeah
01:17:28 <elliott> creating a google account is a pain though
01:17:34 <elliott> they don't support more than one email per account
01:17:35 <ais523> use a different provider than gmail?
01:18:13 <elliott> all the other free ones are worse, at least as far as the sign-up process goes
01:19:02 <elliott> Password strength: Too short
01:19:02 <elliott> Use at least 8 characters. Don’t use a password from another site or something too obvious like your pet’s name. Why?
01:19:11 <elliott> Google!yYou're berating me before I even started typing it
01:20:03 <ais523> random fun story: I was changing newsreader from xpn to pan, and couldn't remember my newsserver password
01:20:18 <ais523> xpn indicated the length in the box, and it didn't follow any of the usual password generation schemes
01:20:38 <ais523> so I looked in the dotfiles for it, and it was something very random-looking, so I guessed it was encrypted somehow
01:20:52 <ais523> asked for a password reminder, turns out it wasn't encrypted after all, that actually /was/ the password
01:20:58 <elliott> hmm, does anyone know if Google have any age restrictions for people over 16 but under 18?
01:21:13 <ais523> (a secondary conclusion can be drawn from this about the way that Eternal September store passwords)
01:26:40 * elliott wonders what esolangs.org's name is
01:26:45 <ais523> elliott: I think the answer to your question is "no" (with a suitably restricted definition of "anyone")
01:26:48 <ais523> elliott: esolangs.org?
01:26:59 <ais523> I can't think of any other reasonable answer to that question
01:27:14 <elliott> ais523: sorry, Google is too Western-biased; it has to have a first and last name
01:27:51 <ais523> I don't think gmail is really designed for people to create email addresses for non-human entities
01:27:58 * ais523 wonders if there are webmail providers which are
01:28:35 * elliott briefly considered just taking the opportunity to register a new personal email, but realised that he still had outstanding obligations wrt his current one.
01:30:13 <elliott> as in, things that depend on the email that I can't switch over conveniently
01:32:46 <elliott> maybe I should just use my name
01:32:59 <elliott> but that, err, involves claiming esolangs.org@gmail.com is male
01:34:06 <ais523> I don't see why email addresses can't have genders
01:35:02 * elliott is not entirely certain how to log out of google
01:36:03 <elliott> ais523: Can you send esolangs.org@gmail.com a test email?
01:36:19 <ais523> yes, do you want me to?
01:37:42 * elliott waits for the forwarded email
01:38:33 <ais523> I'm currently testing Evolution, so I sent the email to /both/ of us as a test
01:38:51 <elliott> hmm, no email in my personal account yet
01:39:56 * elliott tries to log in to the other account
01:40:14 <elliott> I received it there, which is worrying
01:40:54 <elliott> ais523: can you try again?
01:44:49 <elliott> "Yes, delete this sucker" -- Linode DNS manager
01:44:50 <ais523> some of those are work emails, you probably shouldn't have done that
01:47:14 <elliott> can someone ping me in 15 minutes?
01:47:32 <ais523> hmm, I will if I remember, but I probably won't remember
01:50:35 <ais523> elliott: hmm, interesting result: my personal work-provided email forwards (behind the scenes) to my work work-provided email, and it ended up with two copies of your reply
01:50:47 <elliott> that's good, it's a super important reply
01:50:52 <ais523> so I guess I learned something I wouldn't have otherwise
01:51:16 <ais523> btw, you owe me $500 for unauthorized use of nethack4.org, let's cancel out the debts and call it even
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01:52:20 <elliott> ais523: what i neglected to mention is that the $ there is elliott dollars
01:52:26 <elliott> which are worth 1000 US dollars each
01:52:37 <elliott> I'll happily pay your $500 USD fee
01:55:04 <ais523> elliott: but you agreed to /cancel/ the debts against each other
01:55:07 <ais523> it's your fault if they aren't equal!
01:55:46 <elliott> hey, if a machine's public IP is 2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:9fdd/64, I can just chop off the /64 to get a decent address to stick in the DNS, right?
01:56:22 <ais523> the unslashed version of an address is always an address somewhere inside the range it designates
01:56:38 <elliott> just wondered if it would be better to pick some other address in the range for some reason
01:56:51 <ais523> they will have picked that particular one for a reason
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02:00:09 -!- pikhq has joined.
02:02:19 <ais523> elliott: not at home; nethack4.org is accessible via IPv6
02:02:31 <elliott> does nethack4.org's server have IPv6?
02:02:47 <ais523> it can do IPv6 outbound if it can do it inbound, almost certainly
02:03:09 <ais523> it does not, however, have any web browser but wget, which isn't really a web browser
02:03:44 <ais523> do you want a wget of esolangs.org, by any chance?
02:04:19 <ais523> elliott: it's been about 15 minutes, here's your ping
02:04:26 <elliott> ais523: thanks, but I reset the timer :)
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02:11:20 <elliott> wow YouTube ads are really annoying
02:11:33 <ais523> you don't adblock youtube?
02:11:51 <elliott> I just haven't got around to buying a new keyboard yet
02:11:53 <ais523> oh right, you'd probably need to use firefox to adblock it properly
02:12:28 <ais523> one of my own personal arguments as to why adblocks are morally justifiable is that they actually make me see more ads on a site
02:12:46 <ais523> as they make me more inclined to visit it rather than unable to tolerate it, and this includes when I'm in browsers that don't have adblock
02:12:52 <elliott> ais523: can you try to look up esolangs.org's IPv6 address with the ns1.linode.com nameserver on nethack4.org?
02:13:06 <ais523> hmm, I'm not sure if it has dig or an equivalent
02:13:40 <ais523> I'll install it temporarily
02:14:20 <ais523> there's no AAAA there, just an A field
02:14:28 <elliott> guess I'll wait some longer
02:14:58 <ais523> it installs and uninstalls really quickly
02:15:32 <ais523> btw, one nice improvement from 10.04 to 12.04: the huge list of kernels in the GRUB screen is hidden behind a submenu
02:15:40 <ais523> it just shows the most recent one outside it
02:15:43 <ais523> that's a great compromise
02:15:51 <elliott> ais523: that's been there for years
02:16:08 <ais523> there's a reason I stated the version numbers
02:16:14 <elliott> I remember using a 10.x without a huge list
02:16:33 <ais523> elliott: anyway, I'm glad I decided to try Unity first, despite your advice to just go straight to xfce
02:16:34 <coppro> it may also have been a fresh install
02:16:45 <ais523> yep, the list grew over time
02:17:05 <elliott> I don't really suggest xfce to people
02:19:13 <ais523> you suggested it to me in particular, when I asked for advice
02:19:29 <elliott> that's a misrepresentation of my opinion of xfce :)
02:19:49 <elliott> I'll tell people that Xfce is a reasonable simulacrum of GNOME 2
02:20:02 <elliott> but my real advice is to use xmonad
02:20:09 <elliott> (or another tiling WM, if you wish)
02:22:56 <ais523> tiling WMs don't fit my workflow yet
02:24:34 <elliott> yeah, I said that, but then I jsut shut up and installed one and it works fine
02:24:53 <elliott> ais523: are you sure dig doesn't require additional options to return AAAA records?
02:26:45 <ais523> also, just realised that you can check from an IPv4 connection
02:27:20 <ais523> elliott: try dig -t AAAA
02:27:43 <ais523> esolangs.org.86400INAAAA2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:9fdd
02:27:47 <elliott> OK, now I just need to set up the web server to handle IPv6
02:33:40 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:35:05 -!- augur has joined.
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02:41:00 <elliott> ais523: does wget let you set a Host header?
02:41:10 -!- quintopia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:41:19 <ais523> elliott: err, isn't that header the one that contains the name of the website you're accessing?
02:41:23 <elliott> if so, it would be useful if you could try and send an http request to 2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:9fdd for host esolangs.org, path /wiki/Main_Page
02:41:37 <ais523> in which case, you'd do it via wget http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page wouldn't you?
02:41:43 <elliott> esolangs.org doesn't point there
02:41:58 <ais523> oh, I see, the idea's to send one that doesn't match the IP?
02:42:15 -!- quintopia has joined.
02:43:51 <ais523> elliott: --header="Host: esolangs.org"
02:44:21 <ais523> requires wget 1.10 or above
02:44:48 <ais523> shachaf: most software does
02:44:53 <shachaf> I thought it was, like, an eternal unchanging binary.
02:45:23 <ais523> $ wget -6 --header="Host: esolangs.org" "http://[2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:9fdd]/wiki/Main_Page
02:45:51 <ais523> the reply looks like MediaWiki-generated HTML
02:46:01 <elliott> 2001:4b98:dc0:41:216:3eff:fedd:d4e3 - - [27/Apr/2012:02:45:14 +0000] "GET /wiki/
02:46:01 <elliott> 200 18599 "-" "Wget/1.12 (linux-gnu)"
02:46:06 <ais523> and yes, it's the Main Page
02:46:15 <elliott> OK, I'll email THE ALAN DIPERT, and then esolangs.org will be IPv6 Ready(TM)
02:46:28 <ais523> nethack4.org.8818INAAAA2001:4b98:dc0:41:216:3eff:fedd:d4e3
02:46:32 <ais523> same IP, I was just checking
02:47:02 <ais523> you should have checked that first, in case it was a bad timing coincidence and you just violated someone else's privacy
02:47:18 <ais523> I'd be pretty annoyed if it wasn't the case that nethack4.org's IP is public information anyway
02:47:22 <elliott> I don't consider IPs private
02:47:35 <ais523> well, I consider them an identifier of the person
02:47:38 <shachaf> I might email AN ALAN DIPERT myself.
02:47:42 <elliott> they're a rather terrible identifier
02:47:50 <ais523> imagine if you'd accidentally let slip that Simon Cowell or someone had visited esolangs.org
02:48:00 <elliott> hey, I'd do that purposefully
02:48:03 <ais523> (apparently he's the most famous person in the UK right now)
02:48:08 <shachaf> ais523: Is your name "Simon Cowell"?
02:48:15 <elliott> but, I don't believe that you can identify Simon Cowell from an IP
02:48:22 * shachaf wants to know ais523's legal name.
02:48:37 <elliott> shachaf: alan imogen sarkozy
02:48:45 <ais523> elliott: that seems a little implausilbe
02:50:24 <elliott> OK, time to reduce my todo list to one entry
02:50:33 <pikhq_> Seems to me it'd be much better to be ais467 with a name like that.
02:51:03 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
02:51:06 * elliott attempts to figure out the joke
02:51:20 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:51:31 <shachaf> elliott: map length . words
02:52:18 <elliott> right, his real name is atoms is sad
02:52:44 -!- quintopia has joined.
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02:53:38 <elliott> OK, todo list now has one entry.
02:54:08 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Thu Apr 26 19:54:05 2012
02:54:47 <ais523> elliott: is it the redacted one, or is it one of the others?
02:54:56 <shachaf> monqy: Do you live in Hawaii?
02:55:45 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Thu Apr 26 19:55:44 2012
02:56:10 <elliott> monqy: guess what im going to play soon
02:56:28 <shachaf> elliott: With monqy's feelings?
02:56:52 <Sgeo> I got what looks like a Twitter phishing email, but it just links to some online pharmacy thing
02:57:09 <shachaf> Too much spam in one place.
02:57:25 <ais523> Sgeo: where were you hoping it would link?
02:57:41 <Sgeo> ais523, to an actual site pretending to be Twitter
02:59:06 -!- elliott has set topic: illegal | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
03:00:09 <shachaf> Apparently that's a real site.
03:00:15 <shachaf> It doesn't pretend to be Twitter, though. :-(
03:04:43 <Sgeo> elliott, where?
03:04:49 <Sgeo> I know it's available on some Crawl server
03:05:12 <elliott> by robotfindskitten i mean crawl
03:05:48 <monqy> them brits do the darndest things
03:06:17 <shachaf> does crawl have mail daemone :'(
03:06:26 <monqy> it's not like it's an issue
03:06:48 <monqy> overvaluing piety is a great way to abyssdie
03:06:55 <monqy> also die in general
03:07:19 <shachaf> Playing crawl is a great way to die.
03:07:35 <shachaf> I die 80% more when I'm playing crawl.
03:08:11 <elliott> am i surrounded by heavy water
03:08:55 <shachaf> elliott: whats'e your username
03:09:12 <elliott> ok im not terrible (sometimes) but im at least really bad
03:10:05 <elliott> telnet crawl.develz.org 345
03:10:30 <elliott> what the heck am this lava do here
03:11:11 <monqy> elliott: elevator vault
03:11:28 <elliott> how far down will it go???
03:11:37 <monqy> just skips over one level
03:11:45 <monqy> megacoincidencelucky
03:11:54 <elliott> wow have they enabled like
03:11:57 <elliott> extra weird formations in trunk today or something
03:12:05 <monqy> that's just another vault
03:12:19 <elliott> shachaf: i play trunk crawl
03:12:34 <shachaf> elliott: you diede colon open parenthesis
03:13:42 <monqy> ring of fire gives you rC- watch out !
03:14:22 <monqy> minus a pip of resist cold
03:14:26 <monqy> so if you have zero pips that means you get
03:14:32 <monqy> cold vulnerability!
03:14:42 <monqy> unless you find something fiery
03:14:46 <monqy> then you can put it on for the rF+
03:15:01 <elliott> shachaf you are ruining my crawlsperience :(
03:15:17 <elliott> i need the gentle wisdom of monqy in times like this
03:15:59 <shachaf> monqy: can ie have some wisdom
03:16:30 <shachaf> Washington State Destination Marketing Organizations
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03:17:52 <shachaf> elliott: why ddint you telle me about
03:17:53 <shachaf> http://www.humblebundle.com/
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03:59:53 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
04:00:11 <HackEgo> shubshub: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
04:00:16 <shachaf> fungot: Say hi to shubshub
04:00:17 <fungot> shachaf: no need for anything other than c where it's the only reasonable way to get to it. the interviewee thought it was
04:00:38 <HackEgo> SHUBSHUB: AGAIN: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
04:00:49 <shubshub> I was HERE YESTERDAY! no need to welcome me
04:00:58 <HackEgo> shubshub: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
04:00:58 <elliott> Welcome to the channel, shubshub!
04:03:12 <shubshub> elliot do you know anything about Batch? I Need to know if i can set the contents Of a file as a Variable for Later use?
04:03:26 <ais523> shubshub: it's a backquote, not a quote
04:03:54 <shubshub> anyway can someone answer my question?
04:04:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
04:04:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: lol: not found
04:04:30 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: foundit: not found
04:06:31 <pikhq_> I should *not* be swapping like crazy ATM.
04:06:45 <pikhq_> I have a gig of RAM free and somehow I'm in a constant swap.
04:10:37 <ais523> the number of segfaults flying around recently is crazy, I bet there's something wrong with some commonly used library
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04:13:13 <shubshub> can someone Help me with my batch programming?
04:13:31 <shubshub> I Need to run commands in the batch file and the commands come straight from a text document
04:13:45 <fungot> elliott: mä lähen nukkuu öit. if 1700 is too late! i mean,
04:13:48 <fungot> elliott: but constants with mutable parts. then an event message is generated. iirc, some security enhancement patches to linux made use of a channel to be on the computer
04:13:49 <fungot> elliott: simply returning f is icky since that might have been touched by his noodly appendage you would know that car is unsafe.
04:13:49 <fungot> elliott: i shall finalize srfi 46, however, this all should be a /etc/ postfix/ sasl/ fnord? here's not even the vms kernel!
04:14:06 <Sgeo> Why do I keep dreaming of making Worst Shot Ever?
04:14:11 <ais523> meanwhile, Nibbles is busy running at 100% CPU quite a bit
04:14:41 <ais523> what makes you think fungot can run batch files at all?
04:14:41 <fungot> ais523: how is it " break the bot" fnord?
04:15:03 <pikhq_> Also: no, minecraft, left click is *not* "drop".
04:15:05 <fungot> shubshub: fnord sounds like something fnord.)
04:16:43 <pikhq_> LET ME MOVE MY GOD DAMNED INVENTORY AROUND YOU BITCH
04:17:26 <ais523> OK, when it's appearing to work, it's still running at 30% CPU, which is far too much for such a simple game
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04:17:46 <ais523> I would worry it's my code, except that it's worked fine in the past with my code…
04:18:57 <ais523> wow Unity sucks at figuring out which program a process belongs to
04:19:05 * pikhq_ flips off all software
04:19:26 <Sgeo> Including the Freenode servers?
04:19:40 <pikhq_> Sure, why the fuck not.
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04:20:56 <elliottasdf> "Looks like it still presents a blocking interface, so it throws away much of the benefit of async IO. :-("
04:20:59 <pikhq_> Linux decides to swap when there's a whole *gig of free RAM* available, Minecraft decides to drop whenever I click on any item in my inventory...
04:21:11 <pikhq_> Yeah, I'm just declaring today a day to hate all software.
04:21:29 <ais523> and Unity can't figure out what to do if multiple .desktop files describe the same executable
04:21:40 <kmc> linux swappiness is tunable
04:21:49 <kmc> eager swapping is a defensible design choice
04:22:12 <pikhq_> /proc/sys/vm/swappiness remains 0.
04:22:32 <pikhq_> kmc: It isn't defensible when it's swap thrashing.
04:30:28 * pikhq_ comes of the opinion that swap should simply be forbidden...
04:37:01 <Deewiant> elliottasdf: Pong, if it's still relevant
04:37:24 <Sgeo> monqy, elliottasdf UPDATE
04:37:39 <elliottasdf> Deewiant: Probably not, unless esolangs.org's nameservers end in linode.com for you.
04:43:12 <pikhq_> lvremove /dev/frodo/swap ;# Suck it, Linux!
04:50:44 <monqy> oh is that what it does
04:51:12 <shubshub> Its Batch except programmed using ?<insert name of number? (eg: ?five??three??eight??fifteen? ?eight??nine? would Output echo hi and Output hi to the screen)
04:52:00 <shubshub> Im gonna add it to the list of languages
04:54:21 <elliottasdf> note that "Please link only to existing article pages on this wiki. A stub is enough to start with, as long as it has a link to further information. Languages with no link to a description are likely to be deleted."
04:56:05 <shubshub> How do I put the text into a code box?
04:56:32 <monqy> (into the code box)
04:57:04 <monqy> your hands & fingers
04:57:34 <elliottasdf> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Contents
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05:14:58 <shubshub> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Numeric_Batch
05:15:55 <ion> Numeric_Bitch
05:17:49 <shubshub> Im making adjustments currently also to make it better and More Useable
05:18:16 <shubshub> Make fungot Learn Numeric_Batch
05:18:17 <fungot> shubshub: about 200g chocolade daily keeps a mind and body seem to have
05:18:32 <fungot> shubshub: 6.001 test on friday? coming back home in two days some time in the evenings nowadays, it's possible to become internationally famous after your suicide even if you had
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05:29:55 <shubshub> Maybe an infinite Line Interpreter next?
05:31:13 <shubshub> omg wtf is this guy even real?
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05:32:58 <fungot> shubshub: oklotalk itself will be transformed... dang it. it is based on one of the big problems with scheme
05:33:05 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
05:33:32 <EgoBot> 41 ++++++++[>+++++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>.+.>++. [120]
05:35:36 <monqy> shachaf: omg wtf is this guy even real?
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05:42:53 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2
05:43:03 <fizzie> That's what ^def is used for.
05:43:10 <shubshub> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Numeric_Batch
05:43:16 <fizzie> ^def tmp ul (blahbleh)S
05:43:36 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
05:44:02 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
05:44:15 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
05:44:31 <shubshub> fizzie: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Numeric_Batch My programming language :D
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05:47:07 <monqy> elliottasdf: have you seen Numeric Batch, Shubshub's programming language? :D
05:48:23 <shubshub> I worked Hard on Numeric Batch Now to Mix and Match the translation Numbers
05:48:39 <elliottasdf> fizzie: when is fungot gonna support numeric batch
05:48:40 <fungot> elliottasdf: of course it can't be as good as the 2nd ( ecs) ( by step). variable resolutions can have some vouchers, they're fnord acceptable within everyday conversation. fnord.
05:49:03 <fizzie> elliottasdf: Right as soon as someone else does the Befunge interp.
05:49:30 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
05:49:34 <fizzie> It's the language fungot's written in.
05:49:34 <elliottasdf> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge it's crap really
05:49:35 <fungot> fizzie: i'm going to bed earliest at like 3am, maybe 6am here, and i was planning
05:49:55 <fizzie> (Away must get to work.)
05:50:02 <shubshub> It should be easy to Interperet Numeric Batch In Befunge its only converting the numbers into letters and executing them as batch code
05:50:34 <shubshub> fizzie: please ill give u a cookie :D
05:50:49 <fizzie> I'm willing to accept a regular batch interpreter in Befunge too.
05:50:50 <shubshub> you might wanna wait a bit while I Mix and match the translation code ok
05:51:22 <Deewiant> It's the "executing them as batch code" part that is hard.
05:51:40 <monqy> what's so hard about batch code ? it's just batch code.
05:52:04 <shubshub> yea its basically Taking text and using it as code
05:52:28 <Deewiant> Well, not hard as such, just a fair amount of work.
05:53:53 <Deewiant> There's what, 10 commands, many with a lot of options, and probably some syntax gotchas.
05:54:22 <shubshub> Deewiant: there is a shitload more than 10 commands In Batch
05:54:45 <monqy> batch can do ~anything you want~
05:54:49 <Deewiant> shubshub: call, echo, for, goto, if, pause, shift, setlocal/endlocal
05:54:50 <monqy> a lot of comamnds, man
05:55:21 <Deewiant> I guess it does because it's not a typical comment in that you can't use some characters inside it.
05:55:59 <Deewiant> Most of those aren't batch commands, those are programs.
05:56:25 <elliottasdf> Deewiant: It's not Numeric Batch if it can't do everything Batch can.
05:56:56 <shubshub> fizzie: elliotasdf: Im Updating Numeric Batch Now
05:57:17 <monqy> is he updating numeric batch now? he didn't tell me
05:57:35 <monqy> shubshub: please be updating numeric batch now
05:57:47 <Deewiant> Batch can run programs you've got installed: if you run it on a system without xcopy.exe, it won't run it.
05:57:48 <shachaf> monqy: why dont'e you update numeric batchH!
05:57:48 <monqy> i want my numeric batch updates
05:57:58 <monqy> Sgeo: please put me on the numeric batch update list
05:58:03 <shachaf> shubshub: Please put -- bah.
05:58:18 <elliottasdf> Deewiant: Right. So fungot has to be able to run any command on fizzie's system.
05:58:19 <fungot> elliottasdf: perhaps you could suggest particular dimensions?') on channel in case am being ignored, but the ui is stored as a value of type a and never returning. then you can
05:58:19 <Deewiant> But yeah, apparently some stuff like copy and move are builtins after all.
05:58:39 <Deewiant> elliottasdf: Yep; one hopes that it runs inside a chroot.
05:59:12 <elliottasdf> So if it's not a batch command it can't be possible.
06:00:18 <shubshub> elliotasdf: fizzie: monwy: shachaf: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Numeric_Batch Updated :D
06:00:45 <shachaf> shubshub: Please take me off the numeric batch update list.
06:01:03 <shubshub> didnt know there was a list but ok
06:01:13 <monqy> shubshub, sgeo: please put shachaf on the numeric batch update list
06:01:24 <shachaf> It contains elliotasdf, fizzie, monwy, shachaf
06:01:34 <shubshub> I typod with monwy i meant monqy
06:01:37 <Sgeo> I will not maintain such a list.
06:01:52 <monqy> shubshub: please put Sgeo on the numeric batch update list
06:02:49 <shubshub> elliotasdf: On a scale of 1 to 10 How well is my Programming Language?
06:03:15 <Sgeo> shubshub, it's a batch derivative, correct?
06:03:39 * shubshub should call the interpreter NumericCMD.exe then :D
06:04:16 <Sgeo> Theoretically untranslatable?
06:04:24 <Sgeo> Here, have some theoretically untranslatable stuff
06:05:01 <Sgeo> enhrundpybwydyenamdrmbedd
06:05:19 <Sgeo> (Note: May not be theoretically untranslatable due to horrifically poor randomization)
06:07:07 <shubshub> fizzie: are you working on fun*ot yet (dont want fun*ot to talk :D)
06:09:03 <Sgeo> fungot, don't say a word
06:09:11 <fungot> shubshub: mainly i can't use
06:09:18 <fungot> shubshub: that's bj's territory" source), but now it hangs up when loading it
06:09:24 <fungot> shubshub: undefined variable ' call/ cc diverts the control flow clear.)) be false mathematically.
06:09:35 <fungot> shubshub: trying to figure out how to use
06:09:39 <Deewiant> If you're so excited about getting NB in fungot, why don't you write the interpreter in Befunge yourself?
06:09:39 <fungot> Deewiant: what do you do signatures? hahaha. ( back to work.
06:09:52 <Sgeo> Wow, I'm a jackass
06:09:55 <shubshub> Deewiant: i dont know how to use Befunge
06:10:16 <Sgeo> shubshub, reading the page on the esolang wiki may be a start
06:10:17 <Deewiant> Read the wiki page and the related links, play around? How did you learn anything?
06:11:08 <shubshub> id rather someone who is fluent In Befunge to write it :D
06:11:12 <monqy> come on, befunge isn't just taking text and using it as code, like batch is
06:12:10 <shubshub> why did fungot have to be programmed in Befunge?
06:12:11 <fungot> shubshub: too much irc going on for embedded scheme i.e. micro controller based specially pics/ fnord
06:12:21 <shubshub> fungot, why are you programmed in Befunge?
06:12:22 <fungot> shubshub: ( 1/ 2 to the complex plane to the complex list posited in most biology texts, is simply reproduction with inherited change. viruses are _very_ hard to compare since stalin compiles to c, as opposed to
06:12:28 <monqy> fizzie: you should have programmed fungot in Batch
06:12:28 <fungot> monqy: of zeroes, rather than something that fnord machinecode) means you're officially low-level.
06:12:33 <monqy> fizzie: or better yet, Numeric Batch!
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06:12:59 <shubshub> monqy: Numeric Batch is not fluent enough too Many errors Unless you know how to set a variable to a new line
06:13:02 <elliottasdf> fungot doesn't take text and use it as a program
06:13:02 <fungot> elliottasdf: i don't think it was): learning and writing scheme is that?
06:13:06 <fungot> Madoka-Kaname: what does let lp (... strange. looks like a stable internet and/ or
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06:19:56 <elliottasdf> [An error has been encountered while decoding this message. Please quit and reopen IceChat.]
06:21:22 <Sgeo> elliottasdf, you're a worse jackass
06:21:35 <elliottasdf> [An error has been encountered while decoding this message. Please quit and reopen IceChat.]
06:21:40 <elliottasdf> [An error has been encountered while decoding this message. Please quit and reopen IceChat.]
06:22:06 <shubshub> How do i set a new line in a batch variable>
06:22:20 <elliottasdf> Connection error -18 (Connection reset by peer).
06:22:40 <Sgeo> shubshub, btw, the reason fungot is not responding is because I have a character between two of the letters in the name, that makes fungot not see its name. However, the character is not visible to us.
06:22:41 <fungot> Sgeo: where is the break? you call yourself a scener? ld i guess i'm what that page was that there are 32 registers in the order they evaluate.) sort of.
06:22:55 <Sgeo> Oh, I forgot to do it for the second fungot
06:23:23 <fungot> elliottasdf: ok. but it parses almost all useful variants. maybe takes a bit more
06:23:51 <fungot> shubshub: no, i think. hm.
06:23:59 <fungot> shubshub: what language was it written by mankind? :) fnord/ fnord/ english/ wa/ fnord/ fnord
06:24:08 <fungot> shubshub: same thing :p they might want to write a procedure that accepted a continuation that takes a function which reduces streams of a's to values of type type name, with the fnord
06:24:15 <fungot> shubshub: and a muffle with a port fnord. :_) if i just had to spoil the moment, i prefer scheme
06:24:45 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
06:24:52 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
06:26:01 -!- elliottasdf has changed nick to elliott.
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06:26:27 <augur> shubshub: uh.. hi?
06:26:45 <shubshub> elliott: Can You Make a program that will set a variable then echo it on screen Using Numeric Batch? can you do that for me?
06:27:51 <elliott> Usually Linux, right now OS X since my keyboard broke.
06:28:25 <elliott> Also, I don't really know batch.
06:28:31 <Sgeo> elliott, the second fungot in my line.
06:28:32 <fungot> Sgeo: don't people have anything better to do
06:28:34 <elliott> Also I don't feel like it.
06:28:49 <Sgeo> shubshub, nope.
06:29:06 <Sgeo> You could try Googling
06:29:08 -!- shubshub has changed nick to shubshub[A].
06:29:08 * shubshub[A] is set as away : Reason(Dinner Mmmmm NOM NOM)
06:29:20 <monqy> i love dinner mmmmm nom nom
06:29:41 <Sgeo> shubshub is asking for a program in numeric batch, right?
06:29:47 <elliott> monqy: yOU MISSPELLED "OM NOM NOM!"!!!!
06:29:52 <Sgeo> Couldn't e just write it in regular batch then translate
06:29:59 <elliott> monqy: please correct other peoples mistakes
06:29:59 <Sgeo> It looks like a trivial translation
06:30:06 <elliott> Sgeo: if you're so smart why don't YOU do it
06:34:19 <fizzie> Deewiant: It does run under a chroot.
06:36:50 <ais523> elliott: hmm, improved interfaces can be annoying
06:37:06 <ais523> now the touchpad does multitouch, I can two-finger-tap for right-click and two-finger-drag for scrolling
06:37:16 <ais523> and the lack of any gesture for middle-click is really starting to grate
06:37:25 <ais523> I did, it doesn't work
06:37:30 <ais523> three fingers is the most obvious thing to check
06:37:42 <elliott> if it's the synaptics driver, there'll be some premade thing on google for it
06:37:44 <ais523> but that probably means messing around with config files by hand
06:37:46 <elliott> might even just be a setting
06:39:47 -!- shubshub[A] has changed nick to shubshub.
06:39:47 * shubshub is no longer away : Gone for 10 mins 39 secs
06:40:32 <shubshub> Sgeo the reason I cant do that is because I dont know how to set a newline in a batch variable
06:40:32 <elliott> ais523: we don't do away-announce scripts here, right?
06:40:50 <elliott> im not sure i was checking
06:40:50 <Sgeo> shubshub, so Google for that information
06:41:11 <quintopia> elliott: you're right. we totally dont
06:41:22 <elliott> who made quintopia an op and where do they live
06:41:26 <ais523> elliott: away-announce scripts in any even moderately large channel get you yelled at
06:41:38 <fizzie> elliott: freenode guidelines say we don't. ("be considerate" http://freenode.net/poundfreenode.shtml "-- changing your current nick to nick|away --")
06:41:46 <ais523> I think the correct reaction to them is to yell at them here, too
06:42:05 <fizzie> On the other hand, it wasn't "nick|away", it was "nick[A]", which is a completely different thing altogether.
06:42:17 <elliott> fizzie: "Please do not intentionally annoy or harass users, whether by spamming, trolling, flamebaiting, astroturfing, soapboxing or typing in all caps."
06:42:35 <elliott> "Be civil and respect other people's opinions, whether you agree or not. Please do not be rude, judgmental or belittling. Respond to incivility with greater civility and respect. Please do not accuse others or request kicks or bans in public, engage in personal attacks, intentionally offend or provoke others. Do not discuss or taunt users who have been removed, kicked, banned, quieted or devoiced. Be positive."
06:42:36 <shubshub> fizzie: Hows the Numeric Batch Interpreter coming along in Befunge?
06:42:56 <fizzie> I'm not the one who's doing it, someone else is.
06:43:01 <elliott> fizzie: Hey, that's not the right guidelines.
06:43:12 <elliott> Making me think civility is required.
06:43:17 <fizzie> elliott: Oh, whoops. I blame Google.
06:43:27 <elliott> I've been doing a lot of that lately.
06:43:48 <fizzie> elliott: I got confused because they also have a page called "Channel Guidelines" in general.
06:44:20 <Sgeo> I blame shubshub
06:44:43 * Sgeo unblames shubshub
06:44:44 <fizzie> It's the blame game, I see.
06:44:51 <monqy> I didn't do anything!
06:45:42 <elliott> It's a freenode guideline to give it to anyone blamed.
06:46:25 <fizzie> It's best to do a lot of +b'ing in the winter, since it raises the channel temperature, and hypothermia is serious business.
06:46:32 <shubshub> fizzie: which Befunge are you using?
06:46:59 <quintopia> you shouldnt go swimming for at least 30 minutes after any +b
06:47:23 <shubshub> and did you make the brainfuck interpreter?
06:47:32 <fizzie> And the Underload one.
06:47:40 <elliott> see, numeric batch should be easy then
06:47:49 <shubshub> its far to confusing for me to do Numeric Batch One could you please make a Numeric batch one :D
06:48:08 <shubshub> all it has to do is translate the numbers into letters
06:48:20 <fizzie> That's not all it has to do.
06:48:22 <shubshub> It doesnt have to execute them
06:48:42 <shubshub> but fung.ot is not allowed to execute them
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06:49:17 <elliott> it can be if you believe it to be
06:49:18 <shubshub> i did it so the bot wouldnt talk
06:49:33 <fungot> quintopia: i liked the part where i got that working ( sort of)
06:49:40 <fungot> quintopia: i mean " always", and " jaws".).
06:49:58 <Sgeo> shubshub, elliott is joking when he says that's not allowed
06:50:19 <shubshub> fizzie: cant you program the interpreter In another language for f.ungot to execute?
06:50:21 <elliott> Sgeo: what right do you have to declare me to be nonserious
06:50:34 <elliott> i strongly object to any attempt to avoid nickpinging fungot as a subversion of its code
06:50:34 * shubshub declares elliott nonserious by tying him up
06:50:35 <fungot> elliott: and many times c programs become actually slower because c lacks the necessary system libs for the compat_sunos thing to work,
06:50:51 <elliott> ais523: am i still a minor
06:51:14 <ais523> elliott: in the UK, yes
06:51:18 * shubshub is going to make a Numeric Batch interpreter In Numeric Batch :D
06:51:21 <elliott> ais523: but I live in Iceland!
06:51:27 <monqy> wow esoteric is just a 16 party isn't it
06:51:39 <quintopia> i would live in iceland. that place is cool.
06:51:42 <Sgeo> shubshub, isn't Numeric Batch already written in Bash?
06:51:42 <elliott> you grow fast when bricking brains
06:51:51 <Sgeo> So Batch -> Numeric Batch
06:52:01 <shubshub> But I wanna see if its gonna be able to self interpret its self
06:52:07 <fizzie> Anyway, I don't want any separate-executable dependencies for fungot, it's a purity thing.
06:52:07 <fungot> fizzie: what does shift and reset are interesting from a practical standpoint, yes, mztake! right! wrong! red! green! fnord!
06:52:16 <elliott> fizzie: that just means you have to implement dos in fungot
06:52:17 <fungot> elliott: plenty of lisps will probably do so in schlep? i can do with define-macro you cannot do anything else?
06:52:20 <fizzie> I think that's it concurring.
06:52:30 <elliott> fizzie: fungot can do it with define-macro
06:52:30 <fungot> elliott: if i use fnord for my login needs.
06:52:31 <Sgeo> shubshub, well, interpreted language. I may be mistaken, but you may have to run the interpreter in the interpreter
06:52:35 <elliott> can't you even do it with anyhting else?
06:52:38 <Sgeo> Shohould be no problem
06:52:52 <shubshub> Sgeo: I Know but ill code it properly to work :D
06:52:59 <quintopia> fungot did it with define-macro in the conservatory
06:53:00 <fungot> quintopia: ( lambda ( x) ( x y)))
06:53:05 <ais523> right! wrong! red! green! fnord!
06:53:12 <shubshub> Ill call the Numeric Batch coded Numeric Batch Interpreter NumericNumericCMD
06:54:31 <Sgeo> shubshub, are you going to make a compiler?
06:54:49 <shubshub> actually screw the self interpretation idea
06:55:15 <shubshub> because of the interpreter converting the ?one? and stuff in the translator
06:55:17 <Sgeo> shubshub, converting your batch to numeric batch is not complicated at all
06:55:38 * itidus20 is surprised by the quintopia and flees.
06:55:43 <Sgeo> I may be wrong, I haven't taken a good look, I may have wrongly assumed the conversion to be trivial
06:56:11 <shubshub> compiler finished it converts the code into batch which then you can compile to exe :D
06:57:10 <quintopia> itidus20: do you think .ot is a tld?
06:58:19 <shubshub> SGeo: I made a Numeric2Batch Converter :D
06:58:27 <Sgeo> Congratulations
06:58:49 <shubshub> Just by adding these lines of code to the interpreter
06:58:49 <shubshub> echo @echo off >> converted.bat
06:59:16 <shubshub> itidus20: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Numeric_Batch
06:59:53 <itidus20> shubshub: i know nothing. but i have seen the chat thusfar
07:00:51 <itidus20> numeric batch makes you a more productive member of the esolang community than me :D
07:01:07 <shubshub> its a Batch Derivitave written in batch
07:01:58 <Sgeo> Category:Shameful
07:02:12 <ais523> shubshub: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ESME
07:02:31 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esme
07:03:32 <elliott> ais523: meh, Esme is not the worst
07:03:39 <ais523> I also recommend reading the talk page
07:03:43 <ais523> elliott: depends on your definition of worst
07:04:00 <elliott> ais523: well, it's amusing in a kind of impossibly nonsense way
07:04:12 <elliott> something like FURscript is just terrible
07:04:26 <elliott> I think Snack might be the worst, though, because it's terrible /and/ devoid of any effort whatsoever
07:04:27 <shubshub> should I Make a Joke Language?
07:04:41 <ais523> elliott: I think it's to do with whether for "worst", you want something that's closest to 0 good, or closest to minus infinity good
07:04:44 <shubshub> Numeric Batch isnt a joke language
07:05:07 <Sgeo> elliott, is Ook a joke language?
07:05:52 <Sgeo> I am not a joke! I may be a joke, but I am not not turing-complete!
07:05:56 <ais523> elliott: I don't think Snack is even deserving of Shameful
07:06:01 <elliott> fizzie: Whoa, you made EDITS.
07:06:13 <ais523> but then, I consider Shameful to be for things that are actively bad, rather than just passively bad
07:06:15 <elliott> ais523: are you saying the author of Snack does not deserve to feel shame for their creation?
07:06:34 <fizzie> elliott: I wanted to do my EDITS here on-channel, but the person disappeared.
07:07:38 <ais523> we still need [[Category:Not brainfuck derivatives]] btw
07:08:02 <ais523> hmm, esolang idea: an esolang whose entire purpose for existing is to not be a BF deriv
07:08:06 <shubshub> if %lol%==say echo Hello World
07:08:06 <shubshub> if %lol%==dont_say echo Hello World
07:08:07 <shubshub> if %lol%==saysay echo HelloHello WorldWorld
07:08:23 <elliott> ais523: haha, dibs on that
07:09:17 <shubshub> isnt Snack a brainfuck derivitage
07:09:52 <fizzie> But some people do eat brainfuck derivatives for snacks.
07:10:13 <shubshub> I should make a Language that only sometimes works :D ill call it MaybeNumericBatch
07:10:22 <Sgeo> I want there to be a language that would be hard to make a derivative of
07:10:28 <Sgeo> Not sure how that could possibly work though
07:10:39 <Sgeo> shubshub, there are languages like that
07:10:42 <monqy> shubshub: you know snack? :D
07:11:00 <shubshub> ill just reprogram my language to Only work if a certain random number is met :D
07:12:29 <quintopia> heres my language: assign a natural ordering on TMs. let the program consisting of n ":D" emoticons perform the same function as the nth TM in this ordering.
07:13:50 <itidus20> i could think of some truely awful languages, so because they are so bad i won't mention them.
07:15:14 <itidus20> the longer i hold them captive the more they begin to mutate in my thoughts.
07:15:40 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Not_a_brainfuck_derivative
07:15:55 <itidus20> ok this is what occured to me..
07:17:09 <itidus20> a language which takes any finite input and converts it into a well formed html document with all brainfuck characters emphasized
07:18:42 <ais523> itidus20: how is that a language, rather than just a program?
07:19:37 <shubshub> http://esolangs.org/wiki/MaybeNumericBatch :DS
07:20:06 <shubshub> http://esolangs.org/wiki/MaybeNumericBatch :D Yay
07:20:25 <coppro> elliott: can I flesh out semantics for not a brainfuck derivative?
07:20:33 <elliott> coppro: that /is/ the semantics
07:20:36 <ais523> coppro: probably in a different article
07:20:56 <coppro> (I wanted to make it an SKI derivative)
07:21:47 <shubshub> My New programming Language called MaybeNumericBatch its the Joke Language that only sometimes works hehe :D
07:23:07 <itidus20> ais523: that question you just asked is frighteningly difficult
07:23:25 <itidus20> so i suspect i could get away with it >:-)
07:23:50 <shubshub> what Makes a Derivitave a Derivitave??
07:24:01 <elliott> being based on that language
07:24:14 <shubshub> you mean being built in the language its alternating?
07:24:30 <ais523> shubshub: no, simply being intentionally similar
07:24:37 <ais523> so, e.g. MaybeNumericBatch is a NumericBatch derivative
07:24:52 <shubshub> its just a modification of NumericBatch
07:25:26 <shubshub> Has anyone ever Made a Game Maker Language Derivitave???
07:25:26 <ais523> shubshub: that's what makes it a derivative
07:25:29 <ais523> being just a modification of something
07:25:46 <qfr> derivative
07:27:58 <itidus20> im too sleepy or something to really give a good rationale of why X is a derivative of Y but Z is not, nor why X is a language while Y is merely a program.. so i will just admit i am trolling
07:28:31 <ais523> itidus20: it's pretty bad trolling, simply because it's somehow making the channel discussion more intelligent on average
07:29:50 <ais523> (this is the opposite problem from what bad trolling normally has)
07:30:42 <elliott> ais523: itidus20 has a very special definition of "trolling"
07:30:52 <elliott> the definition is roughly "saying things"
07:31:35 <ais523> elliott: perhaps it's a long drawn-out troll of its own
07:31:44 <ais523> this sentence is either insightful or trolling
07:31:55 <elliott> ais523: you mean we could all be victims of an elaborate aim hecking?
07:32:11 <ais523> elliott: not sure what you mean by that
07:32:13 <elliott> HEY GUYS REMEMBER WHEN THAT GUY LIKED PHP AND WE'LL REFERENCE IT UNTIL THE END OF TIME
07:32:26 <elliott> ais523: sounds like your aim is hecked
07:32:34 <itidus20> well.. what happens if a language is the process of translation between english and finnish?
07:32:57 <ais523> itidus20: type error, I think
07:36:18 <itidus20> on a side note.. whoa my blood sugar testing strips no longer need a code calibration
07:40:09 <itidus20> ok i see where im wrong.. a language doesn't define what it's translated to.
07:41:11 <itidus20> something like that,,, im clueless 8-}
07:42:48 <elliott> monqy: shubshub made a new language :D
07:44:26 <monqy> is it on the wiki i want to read about it :D
07:46:16 <shubshub> http://esolangs.org/wiki/!!!Batch :D
07:47:04 <monqy> i too wonder if its possible :D
07:48:09 <shubshub> Making Programming Languages Is Fun :>
07:48:31 <shubshub> monqy: go make a programming language :D
07:48:35 <ais523> -ok, this is bad enough, I'm bringing out the hyphens-
07:49:11 <shubshub> fizzie: I Made a New Language for u to give to fungot lol\
07:49:11 <fungot> shubshub: ( finitely looping)?
07:49:23 <fungot> shubshub: i see when i moved my program while it was loaded?? i was wanting something that would allow you to become all at once, it'll only make ya stronger
07:49:30 <fungot> shubshub: not my sun laptop?' fnord tap tap tap
07:49:38 <itidus20> set str=?!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!?
07:49:42 <fungot> shubshub: spawning a process alone requires more you get owned, it seems.
07:50:03 <elliott> is this upside down because you live in new zealand
07:50:57 <shubshub> elliot: yes i do live in new zealand
07:51:32 <itidus20> !bftext set str=?!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!?
07:52:10 <shubshub> ooooh itidus u tryin to make brainfuck interpreter of my language :D
07:52:27 <shubshub> ":DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
07:52:45 <shubshub> !bf_textgen set str=?!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!
07:53:00 <shubshub> !bf_textgen set str=?!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!?
07:53:17 <itidus20> lol.. the missing ? wasn't why it didn't work
07:53:23 <EgoBot> 41 ++++++++[>+++++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>.+.>++. [93]
07:53:25 <monqy> :o i made a new language
07:53:36 <shubshub> !bf_txtgen set str=?!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!?
07:53:39 <EgoBot> 334 +++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++++>+++>+++<<<<-]>>+++++.--------------.+++++++++++++++.>>-.<<-.+.--.-----------------------------------------------------.++.>.<------------------------------...>.>+...<....<<---..------------------------------...>.>....>.<.<.....++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++..>>.<..<<.........>.<-----------------------. [644]
07:53:46 <monqy> its brainfufck but each command is "hi" with the number of is determining what command it is!!!
07:53:53 <elliott> monqy: put it on the wiki!!!
07:54:35 <shubshub> monqy: try and make a new language using !!!Batch :D
07:54:42 <monqy> easter egg: program "hi monqy" flips a coin and it either gives you a high five or makes your computer explode
07:54:42 <quintopia> how about brainfuck, but the commands are all variants on monqy: hi! monqy: halp!
07:54:47 <monqy> but it doesn't work because the coin is too big
07:55:13 <shubshub> monqy: see if u can make a language using !!!Batch :D
07:55:16 <elliott> tell us about how hard it is for you
07:55:29 <monqy> ok i;ll make a language using !!!Batch :D
07:56:19 <shubshub> ill add more things to !!!Batch to help
07:58:10 <monqy> New language ! Maybe!!!Batch Does Everything !!!Batch Does Except It Only "Sometimes" Works If The Random Number Generator Lands On Either 12 Or 35 Then it Will Work :D
07:59:07 <elliott> how do you come up with these
08:00:23 <quintopia> monqy: suggest this one: a language where all the commands are sequences of nullops, and the number of nullops determines how many nullops get performed, and the only symbol in the language is "". (you have to suggest it because it will be a brilliant idea if you say it)
08:00:39 <monqy> why do i have to say it
08:00:58 <shubshub> monqy: try make something thats not !!!Batch Using !!!Batch :(
08:01:09 <elliott> Maybe!!!Batch isn't !!!Batch!
08:01:18 <monqy> NumericBatch using !!!Batch
08:01:19 <elliott> (if the random number generator lands on either 12 or 35)
08:01:58 <monqy> i don't know what it does it's just called BatchFuck
08:02:14 <elliott> is it a brainfuck derivative AND a batch derivative
08:02:37 <monqy> it's also a Snack derivative, sshshhh
08:03:17 <elliott> im going to write my game in batchfuck
08:03:34 <elliott> quintopia: nobody can be married to monqy he's too perfect
08:03:38 <monqy> little known BatchFuck secret: BatchFuck is a UniCode derivative
08:03:42 <elliott> we will have to settle for being married to shubshub
08:03:48 <quintopia> and can you will me the millions BatchFuck will make when you die?
08:04:15 <elliott> i think quintopia will die before monqy
08:04:21 <elliott> unless quintopia assassinates monqy
08:04:40 <quintopia> why would i ever destroy such astounding genius?
08:04:54 <shubshub> !!!Batch Interpreter In !!!Batch
08:05:07 <elliott> !!!Batch interpreter in Snack
08:05:18 * quintopia pronounces that "bang bang bang batch!"
08:05:28 <monqy> anything is possible if you believe hard enough
08:05:39 <elliott> it's pronounced chk chk chk batch
08:05:53 * quintopia claps his hands and believes that monqy will fly
08:05:57 <monqy> bang! bang! bang!.................................~batch~
08:06:05 <itidus20> i think you would need a snack derivate first
08:06:08 <shubshub> quintopia actually its pronounced Explanation Mark Explanation Mark Explanation Mark Batch
08:06:11 <elliott> it took !!!Batch to help monqy fly
08:07:00 <shubshub> If I write ???Batch In !!!Batch There is going to be so much fucking code
08:07:18 <monqy> brainfucking code? :D
08:07:29 <monqy> BatchFucking code? :o
08:07:52 <shubshub> it will be ?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!? Time the amount of number the letter corrosponds to
08:09:40 <itidus20> shubshub: don't worry about how much code there is.. but you may want to automate the process of writing it a bit and not do it entirely by hand
08:10:46 <elliott> like !!!Batch but ! and ? are swapped
08:11:35 <monqy> ‽‽‽Batch for president
08:12:46 <elliott> "he authored the first Haskell compiler, hbc, which remains competitive with the Glasgow Haskell Compiler to this day."
08:13:12 <elliott> http://anil.recoil.org/papers/2011-cufp-scribe-preprint.pdf
08:17:07 <shubshub> Im almost ready to update !!!Batch
08:18:39 <ion> https://www.google.com/search?q=zerg+rush
08:20:40 <elliott> is it a starcraft anniversary or sth
08:24:17 <quintopia> the zerg 'o's won...i didnt realize i was supposed to kill them
08:34:44 <ion> http://communities-dominate.blogs.com/.a/6a00e0097e337c8833016304a50dcd970d-pi http://communities-dominate.blogs.com/brands/2012/04/paging-truth-police-one-last-time-the-reality-of-nokia-when-criminal-ceo-elop-took-charge-as-ceo-and.html
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08:43:45 <itidus20> there is this language i thought of which is basically a subset of brainfuck which could have some compression uses but probably obvious and blah
08:44:29 <itidus20> hmm ... that doesn't sound as good in practice
08:44:55 <itidus20> i forgot that the lack of a - means it has to cycle around a lot of +'s
08:45:28 <itidus20> and once you reach 3 instructions theres much better things available
08:46:20 <shubshub> itidus20: give me an example of a itidusFuck program lol
08:46:49 <itidus20> nah what i just described is really absurd
08:48:54 <qfr> A guy told me that Brainfuck was supposed to be a research language
08:49:04 <qfr> I thought it was supposed to be humorous
08:49:15 <itidus20> if you assume that you only have 26 characters + a space as 27th character.. then h = +++++++. from there next e = ++++++++++++++++++++++++.
08:50:15 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/P′′
08:51:02 <ion> Ten points for using the correct prime symbol.
08:51:44 <HackEgo> shubshub: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
08:51:48 <itidus20> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++..+++.
08:52:33 <itidus20> i forgot that in regular bf i now have to loop 256 times instead of 27
08:53:17 <itidus20> shubshub: don't worry.. i am only using 2 out of the 8 bf instructions
08:54:52 <itidus20> its really a horrifically bad idea
08:56:08 <shubshub> someone should make a brainfuck interpreter using only + and .
08:56:44 <itidus20> + and . isn't really sufficient to do much
08:56:57 <elliott> i would like to report that monqy has died of being not hardcore enough
08:57:00 <elliott> funeral services are tomorrow
08:57:15 <elliott> monqy "not hardcore enough"
08:57:16 <itidus20> it was a horrendously awful idea.. which i didn't realize how awful until just now
08:58:30 <elliott> monqy "not hardcore enough"
08:58:32 <shubshub> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
08:58:51 <shubshub> ^bf +++++++++++.+++++++++++++++++
09:00:18 <itidus20> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++..+++.
09:00:36 <shubshub> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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09:02:14 <itidus20> by satisfying coincedence "Hello" is easy thanks to the capital H
09:02:42 <itidus20> i was cheating with an asciitable
09:02:50 <mroman_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:--C-%3DC-C--
09:02:58 <mroman_> ^- How would you pop from a call-stack?
09:03:33 <itidus20> shub well .. you start at 0 .. and + adds one .. when you reach 256 it instead loops around to 0 again
09:03:46 <itidus20> and . prints the ascii value of the number
09:04:20 <elliott> i would just like to report that monqy has died again
09:04:32 <itidus20> but formally speaking its not always ascii..
09:05:09 <shubshub> HOW ABOUT WE JUST MAKE AN INTERPRETER FOR C++ IN HELLO++
09:05:44 <shubshub> Make C++ Interpreter In hello++
09:06:13 <shubshub> Make C++ interpreter in hello++
09:06:39 <shubshub> make a c++ interpreter in hello++
09:06:52 <shubshub> Make c++ interpreter in hello++
09:07:12 <mroman_> elliott: return was obvious.
09:08:48 <mroman_> I can't figure out how you would write something to the bottom of the stack
09:09:10 <elliott> you can't, that's why it's just a PDA
09:09:42 <elliott> it still gives you infinite storage
09:09:42 <shubshub> !!! OOOh i know what my next programming language can be :)
09:09:55 <mroman_> Of course @infinite storage
09:10:32 <monqy> hey guys im a zombie now
09:10:38 <mroman_> Can PDAs duplicate the top element?
09:10:41 <monqy> is that cool or what
09:10:47 * shubshub makes monqy normal human again
09:11:41 <monqy> oh wait babies can't talk can they
09:11:43 <monqy> ahfahgalojhaohjolahj
09:12:17 * shubshub those things u hang clothes up with
09:12:34 <monqy> those can't talk either can they
09:13:47 <shachaf> shubshub: cani be peg???????
09:13:50 <shubshub> gonna add numbers to my programming language
09:14:16 <monqy> shachaf: be careful what you wish for!! it might almost sound like pig, and then you'll be a pig
09:14:32 <monqy> shachaf: can you oink
09:14:48 <monqy> pegs don't oink do they
09:15:24 <itidus20> ahh pokemon rules. a creature can pronounce it's own name.
09:16:38 <shachaf> I just realized that "plz" is the American spelling of "pls".
09:17:05 <fizzie> If fungot is being too weird, you can switch the style to something less weird.
09:17:06 <fungot> fizzie: you can save up to 500! i'm in a serious bout of mental problems again. how surprising, it seems. darcs get. be sure to pick a name other than those two.
09:17:09 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
09:17:18 <itidus20> lifthrasiir: that would be a funny name for a pokemon.
09:18:02 <itidus20> shubshub: you could also get away with shub i think if you were a pokemon
09:18:44 <itidus20> i suspect the vocabulary would be shub and shubshub
09:18:57 <shubshub> shub shubshub shubshubshubshubshub
09:19:17 <monqy> what if there was an esolang where the only command was shub
09:20:43 <shubshub> ill make that when I Have finished !!!Batch'
09:22:00 <shubshub> what about if someone made hctab (anyone have any idea what kind of language it would be?)
09:23:10 <elliott> you sure do like batch a lot
09:23:11 <shubshub> so basically the alphabet is reversed from z = a
09:23:21 <shubshub> elliott: its the only language I Know :)
09:23:28 <itidus20> i haven't laughed so hard for quite some time
09:23:33 <monqy> you know english don't you
09:23:33 <elliott> don't you know !!!Batch???
09:23:45 <monqy> how about MaybeNumericBatch
09:23:49 <shubshub> The Only Main Real Language I Know is Batch
09:24:15 <monqy> new study shows english "totally a fake"
09:24:20 <monqy> "don't even bother, wow"
09:25:37 <ais523> shubshub: why don't you combine all these language variants into one single language, with multiple selectable features (e.g. randomness or alphabet reverse or mahjong or whatever)
09:26:04 <monqy> majong is a good feature :D
09:26:40 <itidus20> tetris is too, but could result in your language being sued
09:27:11 <itidus20> the tetris company doesn't like unlicensed tetris stuff to exist
09:27:58 * shubshub is arrested by the tetris company D: ): :( :c
09:28:21 <monqy> that's like a tongue twister, but for your fingers
09:28:26 <monqy> unless you lick your keyboard to type
09:28:29 <monqy> but that's gross don't do it!
09:29:15 <shubshub> I can type at 92 words a minute :D :) c:
09:29:42 <monqy> that's a lot of words
09:30:00 <shubshub> thats like 92 words every minute
09:30:45 <elliott> 10:28 <monqy> unless you lick your keyboard to type
09:33:08 <elliott> ais523: monqy: Arcane Sentiment is back!!!!
09:33:15 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
09:33:15 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
09:33:16 <myndzi> >\ /`\ /< | /`\ |\ |\ | /| >\ |\
09:33:41 * ais523 declares "wtf the fuck" as a new recursive acronym
09:33:45 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
09:33:45 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
09:33:45 <myndzi> /^\ /| /| | /^\ |\ /< | /< /`\ >\
09:33:52 <monqy> welcome back, arcane sentiment
09:34:12 <ion> "w" ++ cycle "tf"
09:34:49 <itidus20> but did he do that recursive acronym by accident?
09:35:20 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
09:35:26 <ion> Strange, i saw the \k/ and instantly thought of killer bees.
09:35:58 <elliott> ion: i associate k with bees now too :(
09:36:08 <elliott> shubshub you should play crawl
09:36:28 <elliott> https://tiles.crawl.develz.org/#lobby
09:37:08 <ion> elliott: I normally don’t associate all “k”s to them, but “k” with line art around it did the trick.
09:37:43 <elliott> shubshub: let me know when you've registered and started playing!!!
09:38:01 <elliott> monqy: what am disapointmente,
09:38:09 <monqy> what am disappointmente, indeed
09:38:56 <itidus20> so many freaking bots in here .. almost impossible to recall all the commands
09:40:25 <shubshub> oooo oooo NEW IDEA FOR IRC BOT
09:40:58 <shubshub> Call It !!!Bot its Programed in !!!Batch :D I Updated !!!Batch btw
09:41:23 <shubshub> http://esolangs.org/wiki/!!!Batch Updates: Bunch Of New Commands
09:42:28 <HackEgo> 2012-03-10.txt:01:19:33: <elliott> unless you just mean batch compilation
09:42:33 <HackEgo> 2010-05-05.txt:13:27:03: <Phantom_Hoover> EgoBot: Hello.
09:42:58 <HackEgo> 2012-04-26.txt:10:38:16: <shubshub> bai be back tommorow for more great fun
09:43:35 <HackEgo> 2012-04-26.txt:10:38:16: <shubshub> bai be back tommorow for more great fun
09:43:46 <HackEgo> 2012-04-27.txt:09:42:58: <HackEgo> 2012-04-26.txt:10:38:16: <shubshub> bai be back tommorow for more great fun
09:43:47 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: save: not found
09:44:03 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
09:44:16 <HackEgo> 2011-09-18.txt:04:16:54: <CakeProphet> I think portals will be great fun.
09:44:41 <HackEgo> wget: unable to resolve host address `hi'
09:45:01 <shubshub> HackEgo is Programmed in batch i can tell
09:45:35 <elliott> there happens to be a port to windows
09:45:40 <elliott> that can be invoked in batch scripts
09:45:49 <elliott> but HackEgo is based on sh not batch
09:46:06 <shubshub> well HackEgo is Made in what i call LinuxBatch then
09:46:38 <shubshub> sometimes i think ur all bots lol
09:47:08 * shubshub makes the ok Programming Language
09:47:43 <monqy> ok "the new hi??????"
09:47:52 -!- Deewiant has set topic: ok | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
09:47:55 <shubshub> please stop elliot its annoyin
09:47:57 -!- shubshub has set topic: hi.
09:48:02 -!- Deewiant has set topic: ok | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
09:48:04 -!- shubshub has set topic: didnt know i could change the topic.
09:48:08 <Deewiant> shubshub: Please don't remove the log URL
09:48:10 -!- Deewiant has set topic: ok | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
09:48:27 <elliott> only i get to remove the log url
09:48:45 <monqy> have I ever changed the topic? myabe one time I contemplattd it
09:49:06 -!- shubshub has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ is a website.
09:49:52 <monqy> "never would have guesseD"
09:49:57 -!- Deewiant has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ is a website ok.
09:51:08 <shubshub> elliot: can you please stop saying ok :)
09:51:36 <quintopia> it say it is ok for elliott to say ok, ok?
09:53:17 <shubshub> shafuck is impossible to write programs in as it requires breaking shafuck :L
09:54:01 <ion> A certain channel has a bunch of bots running a script that notices short lines (like “:-)” or “ok” or “hi”) said by anyone (including other bots) and repeats the line on the channel with a certain probability (perhaps 0.5 or something).
09:54:42 <monqy> you can't repeat yourself that's against the ruuuules!!!
09:55:06 <ais523> don't do something like that
09:55:17 <monqy> shachaf: nice nose
09:55:26 <monqy> shachaf: how can i get a nose like that
09:55:27 <elliott> see /msg chanserv access #esoteric list for a list of the ops
09:55:32 <shachaf> monqy: Tell a lot of lies.
09:55:57 <monqy> thank you shachaf. dear everyone, shachaf is a good person.
09:55:59 <ais523> but really, it shouldn't matter who's telling you not to spam
09:56:07 <ais523> spamming is bad either way
09:56:07 <elliott> aww, that's out of order in my client
09:56:35 <shachaf> There ought to be a television series called "monqy and the brain".
09:56:47 <shachaf> elliott: would you be the braign
09:57:02 <elliott> sorry, i have only a brick
09:57:08 <elliott> pending reverse PH procedure
09:57:42 <elliott> monqy: btw i got shachafs nose before shachaf
09:57:58 -!- shubshub72 has joined.
09:58:02 <shachaf> elliott: Mine wasn't an em-dash.
09:58:32 <elliott> "lucida grande whats even UP with you???"
09:58:51 <ion> :───────────────┐
09:58:53 <ion> (──────────┘
09:59:00 <elliott> shachaf "ruins everything"
09:59:06 <monqy> ion: wow how do you get a nose like that I want a nose like that
09:59:13 <monqy> I'm sick of my :ーーーーーーーー) nose
09:59:24 <monqy> lies are for losers !
09:59:32 <shubshub72> Hey Guys Lets Hold a !!!Batch Programming Competition
09:59:40 -!- shubshub72 has changed nick to shubshub7280.
09:59:43 -!- shubshub has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
09:59:45 -!- shubshub7280 has changed nick to shubshub.
09:59:53 <elliott> œ∑´®†¥¨^øπ“‘åß∂ƒ©˙∆˚¬…æ«`Ω≈√∫~µ≤≥÷
10:00:05 <elliott> ÅÅÍÎÏ`©ÓÒÔÚÒÆŸ˜ÙÇÛÇı¿˘¯˘ˆ¯˜¯
10:00:15 <elliott> rho rho rho your boat gently down the steam
10:00:26 <elliott> merrily merrily merrily merrily life's an aim hecker's dream
10:00:39 <shubshub> #1 ANNUAL !!!BATCH PROGRAMMING COMP BEGINS Make the best !!!Batch program you can and I will Judge them you have 10 Minutes Go!
10:01:02 <elliott> µå¥∫´ ^¬¬ ∆¨ß† †å¬˚ ¬^˚´ †˙^ß
10:01:12 <monqy> set str=?!!!!!??!!!??!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!??!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!
10:01:45 <shachaf> Or, as they spell it in Britain, a "mase".
10:01:54 <monqy> oh I missed a thing
10:01:56 <monqy> set str=?!!!!!??!!!??!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!??!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!?
10:01:56 <elliott> shachaf: ~ø∑ ^ ~´´∂´ å ~øß´ µåΩ´
10:02:09 <ion> Some line drawing characters for your enjoyment:
10:02:27 <shachaf> elliott: "are you pressing option on a mac os x keyboarde"
10:02:30 <ion> I mean, nose drawing characters
10:02:33 <elliott> (shachaf, ion, monqy, ais523, shubshub)
10:02:47 <shachaf> I WANT TO SEE ION'S BOX ART
10:03:03 <ion> éøøíóþþ, ßhá©háf, µóñäü, áí߀²³, ßhúbßhúb
10:03:24 <shachaf> ais523: Can you kick everyone from this channel who isn't ion?
10:03:26 <ion> It wasn’t art, it was just nose drawing characters for you.
10:03:45 <monqy> ⌫ is that a pencil
10:04:12 <monqy> wow what's this thing ⇟
10:04:57 <elliott> ais523: ˙´¬¬ø †˙´®´¡ ˙ø∑ å®´ ¥ø¨ †˙^s ƒ^~´ ∂奿
10:04:58 <ais523> besides, nobody would be there to watch
10:05:25 <monqy> "hello" - ⎀ / "ok" - ⇬
10:05:30 <ion> https://gist.github.com/2508095
10:05:40 <shachaf> ais523: OK, just kick me, then.
10:05:47 <shachaf> At least I won't have to bear this channel.
10:05:55 <ion> https://raw.github.com/gist/2508095/04ce1107ba6b130dc87f596940f59373c997e345/line_drawing_characters
10:06:06 <elliott> ion: ~ø⁄ †˙´ π´®ƒø®µå~çe µ¨ßt ∫´ ø~ ÈÂÇ
10:06:06 <ais523> shachaf: do you not realise that /part exists?
10:06:14 <elliott> ion: (no! the performance must be on IRC)
10:06:14 <shachaf> ais523: I DEMAND TO BE KICKED
10:06:37 <monqy> maybe if you complain about wanting to be kicked enough you'll gain kick immunity
10:06:47 <elliott> oerjan already kicked him after he asked to a lot
10:06:50 <elliott> "didn't learn his lessone"
10:06:59 <elliott> i think we should just kick him whenever he asks and apply a three-kick-strike-ban rule\
10:07:26 <shachaf> elliott: "i learnede my lessone which was if your'e annoyinge enoughe youe gete whate youe wante :'("
10:07:48 <shachaf> The ' in :'( is the same as the "'" in "don't".
10:07:50 <shubshub> can i pleae have a million dollars and ill shut up
10:08:50 <ion> Except that don't uses the kluge that approximates both ‘ and ’ so that we can spare the number of keys in our mechanical typewriters and codepoints in ASCII. :'(
10:09:38 <shubshub> ?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?
10:09:45 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
10:10:22 <shubshub> I told u guys to shut up in !!!Batch
10:10:26 <shachaf> HEY EVERYBODY, I heard ion puts two spaces after his periods.
10:10:40 <ion> I don’t have periods. :-\
10:11:08 <elliott> shubshub: irc cheat code: type /part and everyone shuts up
10:11:25 <shubshub> I dont want to part from the channel
10:11:44 <ion> Irssi has a cool easter egg: “/disco dancing”
10:11:45 <monqy> little known monqy trivia: today i saw a note addressed to "eliot"
10:12:15 <monqy> eliot: was it you?
10:12:32 * shubshub slaps monqy with a rainbow trout
10:12:49 <monqy> what happened to the o
10:13:13 <ion> Are rainbow trouts into other trouts instead of the opposite fish?
10:13:23 * shubshub slaps ion with a big red brick
10:13:41 <ion> FWIW, i saw the “o”.
10:13:54 <shachaf> U+2205 [∅] NO LETTER O ALLOWED
10:14:38 <shachaf> "is shubshub a police car"
10:14:38 <elliott> `addquote <shachaf> U+2205 [∅] NO LETTER O ALLOWED
10:14:42 <HackEgo> 847) <shachaf> U+2205 [∅] NO LETTER O ALLOWED
10:14:52 <elliott> shachaf: you should send that to the fake unicode consortium
10:14:57 <shubshub> `addquote <shubshub> IM GOING TO EAT A FACE
10:15:01 <HackEgo> 848) <shubshub> IM GOING TO EAT A FACE
10:15:07 <shachaf> elliott: You should do it and say it was me.
10:15:13 <HackEgo> *poof* <shubshub> IM GOING TO EAT A FACE
10:15:32 <elliott> shachaf: actually, it should probably be NO LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O ALLOWED
10:15:35 <shubshub> `addquote <shubshub> mmmm nom nom
10:15:38 <HackEgo> 720) <Phantom_Hoover> Dinner? At two? <fizzie> It's four here already. See, UTC+2. You need to add a couple of hours. Or was that subtract? I can never get those straight.
10:15:41 <shachaf> elliott: You mean SMALL LETTER O
10:15:45 <elliott> shubshub: stop abusing the bots
10:15:50 <shachaf> elliott: Also, it should use ø instead of ∅
10:16:00 <HackEgo> 848) <shubshub> mmmm nom nom
10:16:13 <HackEgo> 142) (in #irp) <Sgeo> Flonk, ask on #esoteric? <Flonk> Sgeo: yeah well its C++, so not that esoteric :P
10:16:13 <monqy> I can personally relate to 720
10:16:13 <HackEgo> 581) <fizzie> Isn't "strip nomic" just another word for all dating, though?
10:16:18 <HackEgo> 286) <zzo38> However is probably better to have both queen/king and government in case one does bad thing, the other side can argue to them
10:16:19 <monqy> dinner at two in particular
10:16:19 <HackEgo> *poof* <shubshub> mmmm nom nom
10:16:43 <shachaf> U+000F8 [ø] NO LATIN SMALL LETTER O ALLOWED
10:16:47 <elliott> monqy: 720 "only makes sense if you had been there"
10:16:47 <shachaf> U+000F8 [ø] NO LATIN SMALL LETTER O ALLOWED ON THESE PREMISES
10:16:53 <elliott> shachaf: it should be capital o to look more sign-y
10:17:00 <elliott> although SMALL LETTER reads better
10:17:08 <elliott> shubshub: stop telling people to stfu
10:17:23 <shachaf> U+000D8 [Ø] NO LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O ALLOWED
10:17:29 <shachaf> U+000D8 [Ø] NO LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O ALLOWED ON THESE PREMISES
10:17:36 <shachaf> U+000D8 [Ø] LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O-FREE ZONE
10:17:53 <elliott> U+00D8 ANGUISHED BACKWARDS FACE WITH GLASSES
10:17:56 <ion> That would fit to https://plus.google.com/109925364564856140495/posts (whose images are broken since Google™ changed their CSS)
10:18:12 <elliott> ion: 11:14 <elliott> shachaf: you should send that to the fake unicode consortium
10:19:15 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
10:19:18 <ion> Today I, ion, accidentally missed a line on IRC.
10:19:20 <shachaf> "whatse the beste unicode codepointe"
10:19:27 <elliott> ion: it was nice knowing you
10:19:30 <elliott> i can help with the seppuku
10:19:53 <shachaf> Truly, a fate worse than death.
10:19:53 <shubshub> elliott I Need and idea for my next programming language'
10:20:23 <shachaf> elliott needs too ideas. he needs too ideas. that's as many as too ones.
10:20:30 <ion> I’ve been meaning to study Forth and Agda in some order.
10:20:43 <shachaf> ion: Forth and Agda are basically the same thing,
10:21:04 <shachaf> So just pick whichever one has the better-sounding name.
10:21:24 <shachaf> elliott: DO YOU KNOW WHAT A RETICULE IS
10:21:42 <shachaf> HINT: IT DOESN'T MEAN A KIND OF LENS USED IN A TELESCOPE
10:21:48 <shachaf> Why did I think it meant that?
10:21:49 <elliott> is it something you do to splines
10:22:06 <elliott> lens in telescoping splines
10:22:11 <ion> `addquote <shachaf> Forth and Agda are basically the same thing
10:22:15 <HackEgo> 848) <shachaf> Forth and Agda are basically the same thing
10:22:21 <elliott> standards people, standards
10:22:23 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> Forth and Agda are basically the same thing
10:22:29 <HackEgo> 797) <fungot> elliott: the new fnord <fungot> elliott: what is the point? nothing changed.
10:22:32 <elliott> was hoping for a really bad quote there
10:22:37 <fungot> shubshub: cowboy coder riastradh: boo!
10:22:49 <shachaf> HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
10:22:54 <fungot> elliott: and then there was one on functional programming in general then java and other languages, but given say a group theory problem, i think
10:24:29 <HackEgo> 715) <oklopol> i don't lie, i tell stories <oklopol> there's no difference <oklopol> *a
10:24:35 <HackEgo> 751) [...] <fizzie> So if someone tells you "you're worth your weight in Ethernet", it's likely they think your worth is less than $2k.
10:24:44 <shubshub> why does elliot always delete my quotes
10:24:55 <elliott> because you never actually said the things you added
10:24:59 <elliott> and also, they're not funny
10:25:05 <HackEgo> *poof* shubshub: !!!Batch
10:25:10 <elliott> it's for quotes people actually said (almost always in this channel)
10:25:18 <elliott> also, there are formatting standards
10:25:49 <shachaf> `addquote <elliott> you can `addquote like whatever you want it don't make no difference if i said it (hi monqy)
10:25:53 <HackEgo> 848) <elliott> you can `addquote like whatever you want it don't make no difference if i said it (hi monqy)
10:26:07 <ion> An `addquote quine
10:26:09 <elliott> i'll leave that because iar
10:26:21 <HackEgo> *poof* <elliott> you can `addquote like whatever you want it don't make no difference if i said it (hi monqy)
10:26:21 <ion> You say it while addquoting it
10:26:48 <elliott> shachaf: Conor McBride came out with a new programming language1
10:26:54 <elliott> https://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/~conor/pub/Frank/TFM.pdf
10:28:04 <shubshub> !!!Batch is good if you know how to use it
10:28:22 <shachaf> elliott: Have you seen the Mikado?
10:29:28 <elliott> shachaf: You would like that manual, because it does your map-from-mapM thing that you've always wanted.
10:30:43 <ion> I’m sure there’s a `quote of you saying so.
10:31:25 <shachaf> `addquote <shachaf> I want that map-from-mapM thing that Conor McBride's future language, Frank, will eventually describe in its manual (once it comes out).
10:31:29 <HackEgo> 848) <shachaf> I want that map-from-mapM thing that Conor McBride's future language, Frank, will eventually describe in its manual (once it comes out).
10:31:39 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> I want that map-from-mapM thing that Conor McBride's future language, Frank, will eventually describe in its manual (once it comes out).
10:31:49 <shachaf> `addquote <elliott> `delquote 848
10:31:53 <HackEgo> 848) <elliott> `delquote 848
10:32:08 <elliott> that one will be ruined as soon as an earlier quote is deleted
10:32:36 <ion> Oh, that changes other quote IDs? :-(
10:32:50 <ion> That’s wrong.
10:33:28 <elliott> ion: it's been like that for ages, yeah.
10:33:34 <elliott> ion: it's uglier to keep arbitrary sequential identifiers around
10:33:52 <elliott> i would prefer to use a hash prefix or something
10:34:00 <shachaf> You should be able to specify your quote's name.
10:34:16 <shachaf> `superaddquote "fred" <elliott> `delquote "fred"
10:34:19 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: superaddquote: not found
10:34:24 <ion> The entire quote should be the ID, so you’d refer to them by themselves.
10:34:32 <shachaf> That's how lambdabot does it.
10:34:47 <shachaf> But then you couldn't make this trick work. :-(
10:35:32 <elliott> ion: that's a pain to use though
10:35:41 <elliott> hash prefixes accomplish that nicely
10:35:52 <elliott> then you can use any unambiguous prefix to delete
10:35:52 <ion> I was kidding.
10:36:01 <elliott> actually, it could just show the shortest unambiguous prefix
10:36:05 <elliott> so you never type or copy more than necessary
10:36:31 <shachaf> ion: The whole-quote approach isn't so bad.
10:36:38 <elliott> shachaf: Also, after that PDF: https://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/~conor/pub/Frank/keylog.fk
10:36:41 <shachaf> elliott: But what if you get collisions?
10:37:11 <elliott> shachaf: as i said, it would extend the hash as it becomes more ambiguous
10:37:21 <shubshub> elliott: what should I add Into !!!Batch Now???
10:37:38 <shachaf> elliott: OK, but that means you have the same problem as 848.
10:37:53 <shachaf> As you add quotes the hashes of other quotes change.
10:38:03 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pie: not found
10:38:06 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
10:38:10 <elliott> shachaf: well, the hashes aren't part of the quotes any more
10:38:14 <elliott> just a UI aid generated when printing the quote
10:38:33 <shachaf> But you still couldn't do `addquote <elliott> `delquote 848
10:38:41 <shachaf> Which was the whole point of this exercize.
10:38:47 <shachaf> "did you see me being americane"
10:38:49 <elliott> shachaf: you'd just have to find a partial collision
10:38:58 <elliott> and hope the prefix doesn't become ambiguous
10:39:02 <shachaf> elliott: But then someone could come along and ruin it. :-(
10:39:20 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
10:39:27 <shachaf> elliott: Anyway, if the hashes change, what's the advantage over numbers?
10:39:27 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
10:39:34 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
10:39:35 <elliott> shachaf: Oh boy, it has mixfix too!
10:39:38 <shachaf> Numbers are also just a display aid.
10:39:43 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
10:40:28 <shachaf> WHERE IS RocketJSquirrel!!!!!
10:40:54 <elliott> shachaf: read that pdf and file its really interestnig
10:41:56 <shachaf> elliott: I don't trust this map.
10:42:04 <shachaf> Where is execution order specified?
10:42:11 <elliott> shachaf: In the definition.
10:42:24 <elliott> shachaf: Just add <$>s and <*>s if it'll make you happy.
10:42:32 <shachaf> What if I want a different order?
10:42:37 <elliott> Then you write it the other way around.
10:43:08 <shachaf> So can any part of it magically become effectful?
10:43:15 <shachaf> For example I can give it "m (X -> Y)"?
10:43:28 <shachaf> Maybe I should just read it.
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10:46:41 <shubshub> I was gonna Make a BrainFuck Derivitave But Instead I made a Batch derivatave
10:47:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not sure whether instead to brickbrain you for your capitalisation or spelling.
10:47:49 <elliott> I created http://esolangs.org/wiki/Not_a_brainfuck_derivative
10:47:55 <shubshub> http://esolangs.org/wiki/!!!Batch http://esolangs.org/wiki/Numeric_Batch
10:48:00 <elliott> I eagerly await the replacement of my brick with a brain
10:48:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Hello elliott why have you sent this poor soul to their bricks
10:48:33 <shachaf> elliott: Can I edit it to s/is not/is/
10:48:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Also dude categorising it as a Brainfuck derivative doesn't make it one.
10:48:51 <shachaf> What does the "Edit" button mean?
10:49:08 <shubshub> Phantom_Hoover check out my languages http://esolangs.org/wiki/Numeric_Batch and also !!!Batch
10:49:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's a brainfuck derivative, because it's derived from, and based on, brainfuck
10:50:29 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover check out my language http://esolangs.org/wiki/English
10:50:36 <Phantom_Hoover> shubshub, OK um quick update on modern English capitalisation rules, you capitalise words at the start of a sentence or if they're the name of something specific.
10:51:48 <shubshub> can you Just look at my languages please
10:52:34 <Phantom_Hoover> I did, I just tried to forget because they're both so horrible.
10:52:54 <shachaf> shubshub is being held hostage by a Hobbit :'(
10:53:47 <shubshub> Phantom_Hoover Well they are Batch derivatives they cant get much better
10:54:33 <elliott> shachaf: Here's more to feed you with: https://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/~conor/pub/Frank/test.fk
10:55:15 <elliott> Probably read that before the keylogger.
10:55:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Whilst I will give you credit for making both articles so unreadable that the underlying ideas aren't apparent without considerable analysis, I will dock you all that and more for making what appears to be a language in which the only significant feature is that strings are specified by naming the alphabetical indices of the letters.
10:56:07 <elliott> The keylog.fk I linked after the PDF. (Okay, I don't think it's a keylogger.)
10:56:11 <elliott> Actually, this test.fk is a good introduction.
10:56:23 <shachaf> What if I'm too tired to read. :-(
10:56:42 <shachaf> "effect systems > type system" -- Oleg
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11:00:29 <shachaf> YOU MEAN "BEFORE" USING IT!!!!!!
11:00:32 <shubshub> 99 bottles of bear on the wall 9i9 bottels of bear take one downm pass it around 98 bottles of beer on the wall no more bottles of bear on the wall no more bottles of bear go to the store buy some more 99 bottles of bear on the wall :D
11:00:34 <shachaf> Why am I talking like this again?
11:01:58 <shachaf> elliott: Hmm, this is kind of neat.
11:05:17 <elliott> oh, and I like the if_then_else_ vs cond duality
11:05:24 <elliott> the former is monadic switching
11:05:29 <elliott> the latter is applicative switching
11:05:40 <ion> 99 bugs in the bug tracker, 99 reports of bugs. Take one down and commit a fix, 106 bugs in the bug tracker.
11:05:49 <elliott> ifte mc a b = do { c <- mc; if c then a else b }
11:06:05 <elliott> cond mc a b = (\x y z -> if x then y else z) <$> mc <*> a <*> b
11:06:17 <elliott> except that the condition isn't actually inside the functor in Frank
11:06:20 <ion> mc >>= bool b a
11:06:22 <elliott> but it has to be here to show how they relate :p
11:06:31 <elliott> `addquote <ion> 99 bugs in the bug tracker, 99 reports of bugs. Take one down and commit a fix, 106 bugs in the bug tracker.
11:06:34 <HackEgo> 849) <ion> 99 bugs in the bug tracker, 99 reports of bugs. Take one down and commit a fix, 106 bugs in the bug tracker.
11:06:50 <ion> That wasn’t actually my invention, i think i saw it on Slashdot.
11:08:19 <elliott> shachaf: Oh, that "Frank" name is awful.
11:08:27 <elliott> "It's called "Frank" because it aspires to a smooth interleaving of doing and being."
11:08:28 <ion> to be frank
11:09:09 <shachaf> I GOT IT BEFORE YOU SAID THAT
11:09:55 <shachaf> elliott: Where did you read about it/
11:10:15 <elliott> Frank? "pigworker" and "Frank" got mentioned in passing on #haskell.
11:12:13 <elliott> Dependenciesbase (<5), mtl, newtype, she, void
11:12:18 <elliott> shachaf: You can tell it's pigworker.
11:13:21 <elliott> I've used it a little bit.
11:13:28 <elliott> Not for anything *serious*, but it's not like pigworker does anything serious, either.
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11:20:17 <mroman_> int foo[n]; isn't &foo type int*?
11:21:03 <elliott> do arrays behave funkily there
11:22:04 <mroman_> int* and int** both are initialization from incompatible pointer type
11:22:34 <shachaf> When you do almost anything with it.
11:22:39 <elliott> I know that &foo[0] would be (int *), so...
11:23:28 <shachaf> http://mauke.hopto.org/stuff/c/array-pointer.html
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11:25:11 <mroman_> And int* f = &foo; points to the first element.
11:25:46 <mroman_> gcc throws an incompatible pointer type warning.
11:26:17 <mroman_> from which I conclude, that &foo is neither int* nor int**
11:27:30 <nortti> mroman_: try printf("%i",&foo); gcc warns about the type and tells it when you use -Wall
11:28:06 <shachaf> L.c:5:10: warning: incompatible pointer types initializing 'int *' with an expression of type 'int (*)[5]' [-Wincompatible-pointer-types]
11:31:33 <fizzie> It's because & is one of the listed expections for the "array gets converted to a pointer" rule. C99 6.3.2.1p3: "Except when it is the operand of the sizeof operator or the unary & operator, or is a string literal used to initialize an array, an expression that has type "array of /type/" is converted to an expression with type "pointer to /type/" that points to the initial element of the array ...
11:32:53 <fizzie> It's sensible, but it's confusing people when people keep saying untruely that "arrays are pointers".
11:35:28 <shachaf> elliott: HOW IS IT 04:35 :-(
11:35:44 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Fri Apr 27 04:35:41 2012
11:35:51 <lambdabot> Local time for nortti is Fri Apr 27 14:35:59 2012
11:36:02 <shachaf> elliott: Do you pronounce "nortti" like "naughty"?
11:36:19 <elliott> fizzie: In fairness, C would be much nicer if arrays were pointers.
11:37:04 <elliott> shachaf: How else would you pronounce it?
11:37:29 <shachaf> It's where you pronounce the 'r'.
11:39:24 <shachaf> That's how Americans would pronounce it.
11:40:40 <elliott> but that's how naughty is pronounced
11:41:14 <nortti> you can see correct pronounciation of my nick using this table http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/suomi/fon.html
11:41:15 <Deewiant> Also fi:tti != en:ty, the latter is aspirated and has a shorter t
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11:58:34 <shachaf> elliott: Is there any MONAD TUTORIAL that uses that sort of idea?
11:58:55 <shachaf> 04:46 < shachaf> The equivalent of [Action] when some actions get input from the results of other actions is pretty much a monad.
11:58:58 <shachaf> 04:47 < elliott> FSVO pretty much equal to more or less exactly.
11:59:09 <elliott> http://apfelmus.nfshost.com/articles/operational-monad.html
11:59:12 <elliott> http://apfelmus.nfshost.com/articles/operational-monad.html
11:59:41 <elliott> http://apfelmus.nfshost.com/articles/operational-monad.html
11:59:57 <elliott> http://apfelmus.nfshost.com/articles/operational-monad.html
12:00:13 <shachaf> Except for the three previous times you pasted it into the IRC channel.
12:00:52 <shachaf> How is GADT syntax simultaneously so good and so bad?
12:00:55 <ion> Which one of the previous four links should i open?
12:01:03 <elliott> Open this one: http://apfelmus.nfshost.com/articles/operational-monad.html
12:01:07 <elliott> I made it specially for you.
12:01:07 <ion> Ah, thanks.
12:01:49 <shachaf> elliott: Someone reading that article will probably come away thinking that monads are all about state. :-(
12:04:07 <shachaf> elliott: What's the difference between Codensity and ContT?
12:08:13 <elliott> 13:01 <shachaf> elliott: Someone reading that article will probably come away thinking that monads are all about state. :-(
12:08:21 <elliott> shachaf: Did you not see the Random bit?
12:09:01 <elliott> That will rather quickly dissuade any notion of monads just being state.
12:09:18 <shachaf> Random number generation is basically State.
12:09:22 <shachaf> And parsers are basically State.
12:09:39 <elliott> shachaf: You clearly didn't actually read the thing, since it shows a very non-state-like implementation of Random.
12:09:44 <elliott> And parsers are not "basically State".
12:10:04 <shachaf> (I'm using this in the Forth-Agda meaning of "basically" at this point.)
12:10:04 <elliott> No, especially since this one does N outcomes.
12:10:25 <elliott> OK, I won't bother responding, then.
12:13:08 <ion> This discussion needs Godwining. Hitler.
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12:13:57 <shachaf> ion: You just Godwon this discussion.
12:15:47 <nortti> shachaf: it is ${DEITY}won
12:17:10 <nortti> or you-shall-not-mention-anything-someone-could-mistake-as-religious-referencewon
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12:19:43 <shachaf> elliott: Hmm, I hadn't really noticed the similarity between "(:) :: a -> [a] -> [a]" and "bind :: (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b" before.
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12:24:42 <ion> What similarity? :-)
12:28:13 <shachaf> ion: Well, it's a similarity when you also have return!
12:28:37 <shachaf> I guess it's more the similarity between (++) :: [a] -> [a] -> [a] and (>>) :: m a -> m a -> m a
12:28:58 <shachaf> But that one is more obvious.
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12:30:09 <shachaf> ellisonch: Is this actually "operational semantics"?
12:30:11 <ion> (>>) :: m a -> m b -> m b -- :-(
12:30:29 <shachaf> ion: Right, but, like, whatever, you know?
12:31:14 <ion> PHP’s type system: “Right, but, like, whatever, you know?”
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13:18:33 <lambdabot> newtype Cont r a = Cont { runCont :: (a -> r) -> r }
13:19:31 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *) b. (MonadCont m) => ((a -> m b) -> m a) -> m a
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13:23:01 <lambdabot> forall a r. ((a -> r) -> r) -> Cont r a
13:31:54 <lambdabot> forall r a. Cont r a -> (a -> r) -> r
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13:47:52 <elliott> > let free f a = pure a <|> fmap f (free f a) in free succ 0
13:47:53 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (f a))
13:47:53 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M5760467943...
13:47:57 <elliott> > let free f a = pure a <|> fmap f (free f a) in free succ 0 :: [Int]
13:47:58 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,...
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15:03:11 -!- Gregor has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ is an okay website.
15:05:04 <Lumpio-> What is "Stalker mode" and why does it make my browser refresh like crazy
15:07:22 <Gregor> If it makes your browser /refresh/ like crazy, it's because your browser is broken.
15:07:25 <Gregor> But it follows the logs live.
15:07:30 <Gregor> So you can "watch" the channel without joining it.
15:07:48 <Gregor> It's there mainly to remind people that the existence of live logs implies the possibility of invisible idlers.
15:11:52 <elliott> Gregor: Did you know we're going to become IPv6-ready???
15:13:22 <ais523> elliott: you mean we aren't already?
15:13:28 <elliott> ais523: esolangs.org isn't
15:13:33 <elliott> ais523: because THE ALAN DIPERT hasn't updated the nameservers yet
15:13:47 <ais523> btw, I found the most awesome search engine ever: http://search-wise.net
15:14:05 <ais523> it ignores your query and returns a hardcoded list of results
15:14:24 <ais523> indeed, that's its intended purpose
15:16:25 <ais523> now we just need a lmgtfy equivalent for one of those sites
15:16:34 <ais523> to be simultaneously condescending /and/ useless!
15:18:50 <ais523> this is the best bad idea I've had today
15:21:12 <ais523> it's a pretty obvious acronym to use, from context
15:27:14 <ais523> meanwhile, pan (which I replaced XPN with) is working pretty well, apart from a couple of bizarre/inexplicable decisions
15:27:41 <ais523> for instance, I can't find the option to automatically check for new messages at a time interval, if there is one
15:27:48 <ais523> nor a way to unhide quoted text, which is hidden by default
15:28:42 <ais523> oh, hmm, replying to it shows the quoted text, but that's ridiculous
15:33:11 <ais523> any ideas? the quoted text thing is one of the stupidest design decisions I've come across, if the reply command is really the only way to see the text
15:42:48 <ais523> ah, found it, it's just buried a couple of submenus deep
15:44:22 <ais523> keybinding is Q, menu is View | Body Pane | Mute Quoted Text
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17:50:49 <ais523> oh, shubshub isn't here, that's reassuring
17:51:26 <Ngevd> What's the best strategy for ignoring people who are wrong?
17:51:44 <ais523> Ngevd: just ignoring them altogether is easy, act as if they aren't there
17:51:55 <ais523> trying to interact with them while ignoring the wrongness is harder, though
17:52:17 <Ngevd> Because I know a PHP fanboy who believes HTML sucks
17:52:41 <ais523> Ngevd: what are they using PHP for? and what do they think HTML sucks relative to?
17:53:04 <Ngevd> He's using PHP to make a website, and HTML relative to using DreamWeaver
17:54:15 <ais523> err, complete ignoring is the best option, unless you actually have to run the resulting monstrosity
17:54:52 <ais523> you could try hacking it if you feel like having some fun
17:54:58 <ais523> but it probably isn't worth it
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17:56:02 * ais523 thinks the chance that the resulting site will be secure is very low
17:56:10 <ais523> /slightly/ higher if it doesn't use any sort of database
17:56:48 <Ngevd> I beleive he also mentioned MySQL
17:58:19 <ais523> that doesn't surprise me, given the circumstances
17:58:37 <ais523> now, it's possible to write a secure website on that stack, but anyone who would voluntarily use it probably is incapable of doing so
17:59:35 <Ngevd> Shall I feign interest and ashame him when the site comes to fruition?
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19:25:22 <Ngevd> Hello pikhq_ oerjan
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20:15:02 <shubshub> Im trying to execute a batch file in python but I want to run the batch file with the replaced strings that python did to it?
20:16:34 <nortti> shubshub: you shouldn't ask "anyone know any python?". Just ask what is your problem
20:17:07 <shubshub> well is there anyway to execute the batch file in python with the replaced strings without writing those replaced strings to file?
20:19:16 <nortti> unless you use something like ksh in place of cmd.exe
20:20:04 <nortti> korn shell. Shell used on some unix-like systems
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20:23:05 <kmc> written by these guys: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korn
20:23:18 <Ngevd> Korn? I've heard of them
20:23:25 <Ngevd> The musicy people?
20:25:12 <kmc> we were just discussing the korn shell
20:27:59 <nortti> your opinion: besh unix shell? I like ash because it is POSIX compliant and small
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20:29:02 <itidus20> shubshub: you sure like your batch files
20:30:25 <kmc> nortti: why do you care about "small"
20:31:18 <nortti> kmc: my computer is pretty old
20:31:37 <kmc> that is pretty old
20:32:29 <kmc> bash is about 5.5MB resident set size on my machine
20:32:36 <kmc> but most of that will be shared between bash processes
20:32:45 <nortti> kmc: Also I am still not comfortable with multi megabyte binaries other than compilers
20:33:07 <kmc> well, get comfortable
20:33:13 <kmc> because computers are big now
20:33:14 <nortti> (I grew up using dos on old compaq)
20:33:56 <kmc> it doesn't make sense anymore to spend hundreds of programmer hours to decrease RAM consumption from 0.1% of system to 0.01%
20:34:19 <nortti> well compilers and large subsystems (for example x11)
20:35:22 <nortti> but for example the size of bash and vim are ridicilous
20:37:12 <kmc> it matters in some contexts
20:37:20 <kmc> i don't think it matters on a modern desktop/laptop pc
20:37:22 <kmc> even a 12 year old one
20:37:48 <kmc> i used to get worked up about "wasting resources" which are nowhere near scarce
20:37:58 <kmc> like 1 MB of RAM consumption in a world where a 1 GB upgrade costs $10
20:38:05 <kmc> but i got over it
20:38:22 <kmc> i'd rather spend my time building new things than "optimizing" an entirely irrelevant dimension of performance
20:38:58 <kmc> writing tiny programs is a fun game/challenge, though
20:40:04 <nortti> I don't optimize my code when it makes it hard to read or is not really worth is but I try not to waste memory and cpu time on things that can be easily done without using as much resources
20:40:22 <kmc> "easily" is relative though
20:41:09 <nortti> when writing fast and/or small programs is almost as easy as writing slow and/or lange
20:41:51 <kmc> a lot of people with this attitude won't even consider using a language higher level than C
20:42:01 <kmc> so they are making most things much harder than they need to be
20:42:46 <nortti> kmc: I use python most often
20:48:10 <nortti> kmc: but I also use C and assembly
20:53:46 <itidus20> all i want to know is whenever the pc does anything useful or valuable :P
20:54:17 <itidus20> although, since usefulness and valuableness are subjective...
20:55:25 <itidus20> pc = can run windows, but doesn't have to
20:56:44 <nortti> itidus20: Do you want to know is your Raspberry Pi doing anything useful or valuable?
20:58:27 <itidus20> for instance, right now my computer is only doing 3 signifigant things.. keeping some chats open, tracking the time, and keeping web documents open
20:58:42 <itidus20> most of it's hardware and cpu power is not being utilized
21:00:31 <kmc> whether the cpu power is fully utilized is not relevant to your question of whether it does "anything useful or valuable"
21:00:53 <kmc> most people who own cars consider them to be useful, even though they rarely drive at maximum speed
21:01:02 <Ngevd> Is this the 10% of your brain fallacy?
21:02:30 <itidus20> unlike a brain, a computer can use 100% of its capacity quite literally in certain work
21:03:14 <kmc> we don't understand the human brain well enough to have any idea what its "capacity" is, or how much is being used at any given time
21:03:14 <nortti> my computer is running x11 with openbox, irc client, web browser and music player and is using 16% of cpu
21:03:46 <kmc> also it's very hard to fully utilize a CPU, even if the cpu meter shows 100%
21:03:57 <kmc> you probably are not keeping all of the functional units busy
21:03:58 <Ngevd> If every bit of wire in a computer had an electric current in it, the computer would probably break
21:04:03 <nortti> unless you are using a singletasking system
21:04:16 <kmc> you are probably waiting on memory much of the time
21:04:24 <kmc> no, it's not about singletasking vs multitasking
21:04:45 <kmc> it's about instruction scheduling and cache utilization within a single instruction stream
21:05:23 <itidus20> i think i am determined to say one fallacy after another
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21:13:03 <kmc> itidus20: I'm still not sure what you get out of it :)
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21:18:51 <itidus20> for me, the most exciting code in a programming language is anything related to realtime input and realtime copying of bitmaps into video ram for display. for some naive definition of realtime.
21:20:10 <itidus20> i know that a monitor and a keyboard or gamepad are not themselves computers, but maybe i am just simple like that
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21:22:14 <shubshub> no I Made a Python Interpreter for my batch thing
21:22:27 <shubshub> i mean I Made a !!!Batch Interpreter in python sorry
21:22:28 <itidus20> as time goes on i am learning that theres some really exciting things i can do with a cpu inbetween the monitor and the keyboard
21:23:10 <nortti> shubshub: what kind of batch interpreter?
21:23:20 <itidus20> and, i have yet to figure out how esoteric languages fit into this map in my head
21:23:23 <shubshub> Its a !!!Batch Interpretr written in Python
21:23:58 <itidus20> so far i see them as possibly a training ground for language design/implementation
21:26:51 <Sgeo_> shubshub, how much of it just calls out to cmd.exe?
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21:35:25 <itidus20> i suppose a happy computer is a computer with good data sources
21:35:43 <itidus20> it seems that these days 99% of data comes from the internet
21:36:18 <itidus20> but due to coming from the internet it lacks relevance to ones own personal space
21:37:13 <itidus20> such that for most people, google corporation has more photos of your house than you do
21:40:43 <kmc> you should invent some kind of website which connects people according to real life relationships
21:40:50 <kmc> and then become rich and famous
21:40:55 <itidus20> it takes less physical exertion these days to look at the streets of tokyo to see whats there than to look in the cupboards to see whats there.. <<-- undeniable
21:40:55 <kmc> and have a major motion picture made about you
21:43:10 <kmc> you should put a webcam in your cupboards
21:44:43 <kmc> one day we will replace barcodes with RFID and then you can simply put an RFID reader in your cupboards
21:44:55 <itidus20> kmc: well.. one of these new fangled 3d scanners that can scan through walls will probably end up doing the trick
21:45:03 <kmc> people have tried to market home kitchen inventory system barcode scanners
21:45:10 <kmc> but nobody actually wants to scan their cans
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21:46:07 <kmc> how do you scan through walls
21:48:16 <itidus20> brb.. finding the answer or non-answer as it were
21:53:51 <itidus20> while trying to find it i did discover google can apparently scan books in 3d using infra-red
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21:59:15 <shubshub> I Finished The !Py!Batch !!!Batch Interpreter Coded In Python :D
22:00:09 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:01:01 <itidus20> kmc: the true answer is that what i get out of it is merely a compensation for the kind of healthy conversation i seem to be unable to do
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22:01:30 <nortti> shubshub: Is it a RISC OS program or why are you adding ! at the start of program name
22:01:50 <shubshub> Because thats the name of the language its batch represented in !!!!
22:02:22 <itidus20> lol nortti.. this must be your first time meeting shubshub
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22:23:24 <itidus20> because you don't yet know about the wonderful thing which is !!!Batch
22:27:39 <quintopia> how come the wiki has numeric batch and !!!batch but not batch?
22:28:42 <itidus20> "batch" refers to the native dos/windows scripting stuff
22:29:17 <shubshub> !!!Batch Is Interpreted In Python Now :D
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22:34:32 <kmc> Is Capitalizing Every Word Part Of Programming In Batch?
22:36:54 <itidus20> So looking at Talk:OISC the general message I get is that there is some controversy over whether an instruction which takes one parameter and then on the basis of that parameter selects a sub-instruction to perform counts as a single instruction
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22:37:48 <Ngevd> It counts as a single instruction, but defeats the point of an OISC
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22:44:15 <itidus20> i suppose if you have 2 parameters, and the second parameter is 0, you can infer that you don't want to do a division.
22:47:39 <Ngevd> Unless you are forcing an error to have hacky side effects
22:51:13 <shubshub> gonna go write a !!!Batch Interpreter In !!!Batch :D
22:54:13 <shubshub> actually its gonna be a Version Of !Py!Batch Written Using !!!Batch and Executed as a Python File :D
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23:11:34 <shubshub> Im Converting !Py!Batch Into !!!Batch Code and its working except it traslates everything into normal letters D:
23:15:26 <shubshub> well ive got a proven fact: !!!Batch Can Not Be Interpreted Inside Of !!!Batch For The simple fact is it converts everything even the translated shitload long ?!!!!! Into Lettering and stuff D: so currently it is impossible
23:16:01 * shubshub does have another idea however :D
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23:32:14 <kmc> I Don't Understand Your Style Of Capitalization shubshub
23:32:26 <kmc> Is This Related To The Batch Language Or Just Something You Do
23:33:38 <kmc> Well, That's Fun
23:43:14 <shachaf> kmc: Yesterday elliott made me get Agda working.
23:43:21 <shachaf> It turns out it's actually pretty neat.
23:46:36 * shubshub is making a Numeric Batch Interpreter In !Py!Batch
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00:07:38 <madbr> so what's the latest trend in esoteric langs
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00:22:02 <ion> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4456438/how-can-i-pass-the-string-null-through-wsdl-soap-from-as3-to-coldfusion-web
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00:29:35 <qfr> ion lol that sounds messed up
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00:51:44 <Sgeo_> o.O PyPy is working on STM?
00:52:10 <Sgeo_> "(The goal is not to expose STM to the user's program.) " Darn
00:53:08 <ion> sgeo: URL?
00:53:13 <Sgeo_> http://morepypy.blogspot.com/2012/04/stm-update-and-thanks-everybody.html
00:53:23 <Sgeo_> shubshub, do you know what a thread is?
00:53:25 <monqy> shubshub: Software Transactional Monads
00:53:40 * shubshub slaps monqy with a rainbow trout
00:53:40 <ion> With arbitrary side effects everywhere, it would be probably much more difficult to expose STM to the user.
00:55:17 <ion> It seems to say they do expose some kind of an interface.
00:55:35 <Sgeo_> I didn't read the whole thing
00:56:04 <ion> The “transactions” module (which i didn’t look at).
00:57:38 * shubshub is working on a Numeric Batch Interpreter Programmed In !Py!Batch (The Python Interpreter For !!!Batch)
00:58:00 <shubshub> (sorry i mean the !!!Batch Interpreter for Python)
00:58:28 <shubshub> The !!!Batch Interpreter written in Batch Is shitty It cant do More than 1 Line without confuzzling its self
00:58:55 <shubshub> this new one doesnt even need to have any normal batch commands in it not even set str=
00:59:05 <shubshub> You Just type it all up and away you go :D
01:00:14 <shubshub> !Py!Batch will also be able to read Python Programs Written Using !!!Batch
01:06:08 <fungot> shubshub: you mean the get-foreign-binding??? hahahaha" and
01:06:24 <kmc> I Really can't Deal With Random caps
01:06:30 <kmc> it's Fucking With my Head
01:06:42 <kmc> It Would be Much better if You Used Shouty All caps
01:06:48 <fungot> itidus20: epiphany doesn't even have the word " flower", it didn't work
01:06:50 <kmc> Or Anything really
01:07:40 <kmc> yes that's better
01:08:15 <shachaf> kmc: Just don't call the all-cap-cop. :-(
01:09:55 <itidus20> fungot: There was an Old Man who said, 'Hush! I perceive a young bird in this bush!' When they said, 'Is it small?' He replied, 'Not at all! It is four times as big as the bush!'
01:09:55 <fungot> itidus20: it seems to be looked at in that way
01:10:10 <shachaf> MYJAPA得ぬESEI得ぬPUTMETHODMAKESiTVRATHERDi絵笛不iCU得るTTOTYPETHiSｗａｙ．
01:10:14 <fungot> shubshub: is it caused by intensive allocation? so if i want to
01:10:57 <fungot> itidus20: just for the global environment of the call/ cc
01:11:44 <fungot> quintopia: be happy to help out with slava's stack-effect inferencer. hast thou a link? :) i don't understand
01:11:56 <fungot> shachaf: verily fnord, am i right in guessing that anonymous recursion would make this a snap. instantly fix photo flaws in just a tic...
01:12:17 <shachaf> fungot must be cheating. These sentences are too realistic.
01:12:18 <fungot> shachaf: i am new to fnord wrote a blog entry. i saw that in google
01:12:22 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:12:32 <fungot> shachaf: it's ircd. :p
01:12:45 <fungot> shachaf: but the brackets are reversed
01:13:01 <fungot> Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)
01:13:20 <quintopia> fungot, what dost thou think of death?
01:13:21 <fungot> quintopia: " very fnord of you,' said nanny, as much part of the scaffolding." hah! you can't do dat,' said vimes, walking around the figure.
01:13:36 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
01:13:50 -!- pikhq has joined.
01:13:53 <fungot> shubshub: that is just a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there
01:14:04 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot* homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:14:09 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
01:14:37 <fungot> itidus20: but it supports virtually every x estension on any host. it can in most real systems, which allow you to say what are most popular but certainly free software related channels are more popular
01:14:41 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
01:15:46 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
01:15:51 <fungot> shubshub: oznaczono jako spam holy flip shotgun thing looked shit hot. what the hell? dark angels? ( watching smoz tuck his tail)
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01:16:12 <quintopia> fizzie: can fungot have a ^tweet command?
01:16:13 <fungot> quintopia: this accident in live, go to the game
01:31:44 <madbr> still haven't figured how to garbage collect my language :(
01:36:59 <madbr> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fatmouse
01:37:30 <madbr> madoka: it's harder than that in my case
01:37:41 <madbr> since variables never go out of scope
01:37:57 <madbr> you have to figure out when a variable becomes a "dead end"
01:38:06 <madbr> ie can't produce any more new variables
01:38:12 <madbr> in which case it can be collected
01:44:17 <madbr> It's a lot harder than in java or stuff
01:44:29 <madbr> where eventually you run out of referrences
01:44:43 <olsner> 1. delete language, 2. garbage collected?
01:46:19 <madbr> yeah that's totally going to loop
01:46:30 <madbr> it is turing complete
01:47:43 <Madoka-Kaname> madbr, are you sure determining if a variable can still be used isn't Turing complete?
01:48:13 <madbr> I'm afraid it might involve solving the halting problem or something like that yeah :(
01:49:51 <Madoka-Kaname> test only ever goes out of scope if test2 halts, right?
01:50:46 <Madoka-Kaname> madbr, if all variables that can reference a variable are consumed, it's dead.
01:50:52 <Madoka-Kaname> But, I have no clue how you could apply that to arrays
01:51:14 <madbr> I think you can't solve all the cases
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01:51:43 <madbr> but you can at least solve the case where one of the indexes is always higher on new instances
01:52:53 <madbr> like on an array that's duplicated on each iteration, you can find out that newly produced variables always have a higher iteration index, and figure out when a whole iteration is "dead"
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01:54:09 <madbr> test.1.1 and test.1.1.1 are different arrays no?
01:54:44 <Madoka-Kaname> They share the same name, but, have different dimensions
01:55:46 <madbr> I guess test.1.1 should die once test.1.1.1 exists
01:56:19 <Madoka-Kaname> madbr: How do you plan on implementing this language?
01:56:26 <madbr> that's the problem
01:56:43 <madbr> I'll probably restrict iterators
01:56:57 <Madoka-Kaname> To represent the entire Fatmouse as [Variable -> Bool]
01:57:29 <madbr> to something like "don't make arrays with infinite amounts of data in them"
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01:58:22 <madbr> plus at least one of the iterators has to have real values in some array
01:58:46 <madbr> but yeah the real problem is garbage collecting the whole thing
01:58:54 <madbr> the other stuff is a challenge
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01:58:58 <Madoka-Kaname> Would it be possible to solve using algebra or something all the possible valid values?
02:02:20 <madbr> then it looks at all the values in test2
02:02:28 <madbr> each one gives a value to i
02:03:11 <madbr> yeah I don't think I could solve all the cases but maybe the easier ones
02:03:39 <madbr> ie "the compiler solves some cases but only really simple ones"
02:03:43 <Madoka-Kaname> I'm /pretty sure/ you can reduce everything there to rational expressions?
02:03:53 <madbr> otherwise you just have to write
02:04:38 <madbr> ie "every iterator must appear plain at least once in one of the conditions"
02:06:39 <Madoka-Kaname> You treat test3.i+6 as a condition-- you already have i
02:07:48 <madbr> but what if the user asks for
02:07:49 <madbr> test.i test.(4 + 5*i - 3*i*i + 2*i*i*i - 9*i*i*i*i + 7*i*i*i*i*i)
02:08:05 <madbr> test.i test2.(4 + 5*i - 3*i*i + 2*i*i*i - 9*i*i*i*i + 7*i*i*i*i*i)
02:09:09 <shubshub> we are all speaking our own programming langauges'\
02:09:27 <madbr> I guess the compiler would have to return an error along the lines of "I'm not matlab" :D
02:13:04 <itidus20> printf("1 = 0.");while(1)printf("9");
02:13:17 <madbr> var.x.y.z (x*x*x + y*y*y - z*z*z)=0
02:14:23 <madbr> yeah I have to update the page
02:14:39 <madbr> I'll probably want to switch the syntax from
02:14:54 <madbr> result.x.y condition.x condition2.y
02:15:03 <Madoka-Kaname> It amounts to a programming language that, in the long run, is basically a (logic programming?) language that requires a lot of high-level math to solve.
02:15:06 <madbr> condition.x condition.y
02:15:21 <madbr> (with python style indentation)
02:16:34 <madbr> but there's always at least one output
02:16:40 <madbr> does the program halt or not
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02:19:38 <Madoka-Kaname> The really problematic case is equations in the form of test.a.b + math on a and b without any limits
02:21:31 <madbr> is that prolog or something?
02:23:49 <Madoka-Kaname> Think of it as a function definition var(x,y,z) = (x*x*x + y*y*y - z*z*z)==0
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02:32:13 <shubshub> !!!Batch: !Py!Batch Updated To Version 1.2: More Code Added monqy Sgeo
02:36:16 <shubshub> madbr: would you be able to make a !!!Batch interpreter in Fatmouse?
02:40:48 <Madoka-Kaname> madbr, I'm reasonably certain that you can treat the individual arrays as functions.
02:42:13 <shubshub> How would I make a Programming Language iN Python?
02:48:25 <shubshub> Hey I have a question: is It Possible to make a programming language in another Programming Language that has features that the Language its made in couldnt perform
02:48:53 <Gregor> Also, "features" and "perform"
02:49:13 <shubshub> couldn't meaning the Original language Could not perform the function in any way shape or form no matter how hard u tried
02:49:43 <Sgeo_> shubshub, well, a compiler could. You could make a compiler that only reads standard input and output, yet outputs code that can do things
02:49:50 <Sgeo_> Such as manipulate hardware
02:50:57 <Sgeo_> Suppose I have some language where each line is a URL, and it outputs the page
02:51:10 <TeruFSX> if the language cannot perform these in any way, it's impossible
02:51:46 <Sgeo_> I could make a compiler for that language, which, itself, is not able to access the web. Maybe the language it's written in doesn't have network access. However, it could write code to disk and this code, itself, can access the network
02:52:10 <Sgeo_> So compiler (with no net access) takes URLang and converts it to a .exe which does have net access
02:52:13 <TeruFSX> that's accurate, i was also going to say that would mean that you can't interpret it
02:52:23 <Sgeo_> shubshub, it's because the compiler is just translating from one language to another
02:52:36 <Sgeo_> It itself does not need to perform the functions written in the language it's compiling
02:53:48 <shubshub> Hey Sgeo_ you any good at Python maybe you could help me make a Language in it
02:54:01 <TeruFSX> first, what do you want this language to do
02:54:11 <TeruFSX> second, are you going to compile or interpret it
02:54:32 <Sgeo_> shubshub, first, I want you to realize something. You can describe a language in English, using your words, without actually being able to use that language
02:54:44 <shubshub> Interpret it first also I want it to Pretty Much extend off Python and do features that Python can do But with less coding
02:54:57 <Sgeo_> In fact, there are several languages on the wiki, in which programs in those languages can never be run.
02:55:25 <TeruFSX> some require impossible things, such as solving the halting problem
02:55:28 <Sgeo_> shubshub, because they require "features" as you might call them which no program running on hardware as we know it can do.
02:55:44 <shubshub> lolol but one day they will be able to run?
02:55:56 <Sgeo_> And these aren't features like "Go access the Internet", but actual calculations so to speak
02:56:11 <kmc> solving the halting problem is actually impossible
02:56:17 <kmc> given a basic metaphysical assumption
02:56:39 <Sgeo_> shubshub, at least, unless there's a major revolution in computing that overturns what we know... and even then, the same concept would extend over to these new weird computers
02:56:40 <shubshub> I want this Python Language to be an easier version of Python yet do everything Python can do with less programming
02:57:09 <Sgeo_> kmc, eh, is it proven that there's no possible computers in this universe more powerful than TC?
02:57:20 <kmc> that is the basic metaphysical assumption
02:57:34 <TeruFSX> what class is the halting problem again?
02:57:53 <kmc> recursively enumerable
02:58:21 <kmc> meaning you can write a turing machine which prints out all the halting turing machines, one by one, and never prints a non-halting one
02:58:51 <shubshub> so Sgeo_ can you help me make a new language?
02:59:05 <kmc> equivalently, meaning you can write a turing machine which takes a description of a turing machine and returns "yes" if that machine halts, and never returns "yes" if it doesn't halt
02:59:06 <Sgeo_> shubshub, not much, perhaps a little.
02:59:12 <kmc> (but it's allowed to loop forever rather than saying "no")
02:59:27 <Sgeo_> kmc, how is that equivalent?
02:59:41 <shubshub> Can Programming Languages Be Interpreted In Multiple Languages to make one large interpreter?
02:59:48 <Madoka-Kaname> A limited version of Fatmouse that doesn't allow expressions in the 'set' phrase.
03:00:02 <Madoka-Kaname> (i.e. you can't write array.x+1 array.x, only array.x array.x-1)
03:00:03 <Sgeo_> shubshub, I have no idea what that question means, but people have made programs that work in different languages
03:00:57 <shubshub> Make a Programming Language Interpreter using Multiple Languages To Be able to understand what the code of this New programming language does
03:01:57 <kmc> Sgeo_: one direction is, we have a TM to enumerate the strings of a language; we want a TM to recognize strings in that language
03:02:15 <kmc> we take a string and then run the enumerator until it spits out that string
03:02:23 <Madoka-Kaname> madbr, if you want Fatmouse to be truly uncompilable, allow expressions like this:
03:02:32 <kmc> if the string isn't in the language, we run forever, which is ok
03:03:03 <Madoka-Kaname> Well, not 'truly uncompilable', but, rather, 'hard to compile without lots of math'
03:03:10 <Sgeo_> kmc, it's the other direction I'm concerned about. Yes or loop forever is trivial
03:03:13 <kmc> the other direction is, we have the recognizer, we want an enumerator
03:03:35 <kmc> you simulate the recognizer on all possible inputs, in parallel
03:03:37 <kmc> which is to say
03:04:05 <kmc> TM step 0 of input 0
03:04:09 <kmc> TM step 0 of input 1
03:04:12 <kmc> TM step 1 of input 0
03:04:33 <Sgeo_> Ah, it was the parallel running thing that was confusing me of how it could possibly work
03:04:45 <Sgeo_> I was thinking "You'd have to try them in serial"
03:05:04 <kmc> the parallel simulation thing is a really useful trick
03:05:43 <madbr> I thought it would be easier to evaluate if you let expressions everywhere except at least one of the instances of each iterator has to be in one of the input arrays without any computation
03:06:10 <madbr> so that you can pull out a list of possible values for each expression
03:07:53 <madbr> but then that's the reverse kind of language
03:08:14 <madbr> whereas your kind turns everything into functions I guess
03:09:38 <Madoka-Kaname> array.x.y.z x>5 array2.(x-2).y.z can be translated into
03:10:31 <Madoka-Kaname> var array$3$0: (Int, Int, Int) => Boolean = (x, y, z) => false
03:10:36 <shubshub> New Language Idea Name!: Venom Programming Language
03:11:17 <Madoka-Kaname> var array$3$1: (Int, Int, Int) => Boolean = (x, y, z) => array$3$0(x,y,z) || (x>5 && array2(x-2,y,z))
03:11:29 <kmc> shubshub: if you want to design a new language, you should start by learning a lot of existing ones
03:11:36 <kmc> otherwise you will make the same mistakes others have made
03:11:41 <monqy> Batch is a lot, ok
03:12:07 <shubshub> Im Not Making this new Language in Batch
03:12:31 <kmc> which is...?
03:12:54 <kmc> dude, i can't summarize how to design a good language in a couple of lines
03:12:57 <kmc> it's a huge topic
03:13:03 <kmc> many books and thousands of papers have been written about it
03:13:12 <kmc> but people don't read them
03:13:18 <kmc> and so the world is full of awful languages designed by amateurs
03:13:35 <Sgeo_> kmc, does it really make a big difference for esolangs?
03:14:07 <kmc> i wasn't talking about esolangs
03:14:29 <kmc> <shubshub> I want this Python Language to be an easier version of Python yet do everything Python can do with less programming
03:14:54 <kmc> i think inventing new languages is a great way to learn
03:15:01 <kmc> just don't expect to make a good one until you know a lot
03:15:09 <Sgeo_> kmc, I was considering making a language
03:15:19 <monqy> would it be good, Sgeo_
03:15:19 <kmc> shubshub: have you read this book? http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html
03:15:22 <Sgeo_> Goal not really to be good, just to be better than the only alternative
03:15:40 <monqy> what alternative, oh right that thing
03:15:55 <itidus20> kmc: is that a paraphrase or did he really say that? :P
03:16:34 * kmc thinks itidus20 and shubshub will get along great
03:16:36 <Sgeo_> Wait, shubshub does Ruby?
03:17:03 <Sgeo_> kmc, does Ruby count as having first-class functions, given the crappiness of blocks?
03:17:17 <ion> The crappiness of blocks?
03:17:22 <Sgeo_> shubshub, Smalltalk's a better language. Environment might not be so useful for implementing languages.
03:17:48 <Sgeo_> ion, they're non-first-class things that you can magically pass at the end of a method call
03:17:50 <ion> I mean, it’s better just to have a lightweight syntax for all lambdas instead of special sugar for the single-lambda-parameter case, but “crappiness”?
03:17:58 <kmc> Sgeo_: it has actual first-class functions too
03:18:28 <kmc> there's a function to turn a block into a first-class function, and you can call it with block syntax, so it's not much worse...
03:18:43 <kmc> blocks are interesting though, in that they capture the caller's continuation, sort of
03:19:23 <kmc> if you use "return" within a block
03:19:29 <kmc> it returns from the caller of the function that got the block
03:19:50 <kmc> that is from the lexically enclosing function of the block
03:19:53 <kmc> not from the block itself
03:20:11 <kmc> i remember someone on reddit wondering if in the far future there might be languages which let you capture "where to return to" as a first-class value :D
03:20:39 <kmc> anyway i haven't used ruby much, so some of the above might be wrong
03:20:41 * shubshub will make Venom using a Multitude Of Languages :D
03:21:21 <kmc> Will All the documentation Be Written In your Trademark Random capitalization Style?
03:21:41 <itidus20> it's probably not actually random
03:21:56 <kmc> itidus20: yeah, that's why it bugs me, i have to look for patterns
03:22:10 <shachaf> kmc: Agda is fun until you know something but don't know how to express it to the computer.
03:22:14 <itidus20> lol..............................
03:22:19 <shachaf> I guess that's true about learning a new language in general.
03:23:18 <kmc> but learning how to write functions so that things can be proven about them is a bigger fundamental shift than learning new stdlib IO functions or something
03:23:44 <kmc> even if you know Haskell, learning Agda has the same kind of brick-wall feeling that most people associate with learning Haskell :)
03:23:56 <shachaf> Well, you can prove things about any sort of function in Agda.
03:24:02 <shachaf> It's just that some are much easier than others.
03:24:41 <ion> These are pretty closely the same thing at varying levels of syntactic sugar:
03:24:43 <ion> def foo(f) f.call(42) end; foo(->(n) { puts "got #{n}" })
03:24:46 <ion> def foo(&f) f.call(42) end; foo {|n| puts "got #{n}" }
03:24:51 <ion> def foo() yield 42 end; foo {|n| puts "got #{n}" }
03:25:00 <shachaf> ion: They're not quite the same.
03:26:23 <shachaf> foo=->(&f){f.call(42)};foo.(&->(n){puts "got #{n}"})
03:26:25 <shubshub> the Variable Definer I Just Made can set about 10 Thousand Variables Every Minute
03:26:40 <shachaf> 10 Thousand Variables Every Minute
03:26:44 <shubshub> the variable definer is written in batch
03:26:55 <shachaf> that's as Many as 100 Hundreds
03:27:03 <Sgeo_> And that's terrible.
03:27:08 <ion> MORE THAN NINE THOUSAND
03:27:26 <kmc> the capitalization is eating away my brain
03:27:34 <shachaf> Sgeo_: You know what's terrible?
03:27:36 <ion> Sorry, i deserve to be kicked for saying “MORE THAN” instead of the correct “OVER”.
03:27:46 <monqy> I Think His Capitalization Is Pretty Nifty And/Or Neato :D
03:27:58 <itidus20> kmc: why are {the, can, set, about} uncapitalized?
03:28:02 <Sgeo_> monqy, that's not his capitalization?
03:28:30 <kmc> itidus20: i don't know!!
03:28:56 <shachaf> monqy: remberber the time when you implied I wasnt' good person :"(
03:29:01 <shubshub> what should be the max amount of variables for my language?
03:29:05 <itidus20> also.. for more agony, why did he elect to say "10 Thousand" instead of "Ten Thousand" or "10,000"
03:29:11 <monqy> shachaf: just like it was yesterday
03:29:11 <shubshub> No it needss to be more than 3
03:29:23 <shachaf> monqy: because it was yestreday
03:29:35 <kmc> anyone who needs more than 4 variables isn't a Real Programmer
03:29:41 <shachaf> kmc: I thought that was 3?
03:29:51 <kmc> shachaf: 30 thousand or 30 Thousand?
03:29:53 <ion> I’m trying to figure out what the alot of variables looks like.
03:30:14 <kmc> HoNeStLy EvEn MySpAcE CaPs WoUlD Be PrEfErAbLe
03:30:28 <ion> Probably pretty much like http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_D_Z-D2tzi14/S8TZcKXqR-I/AAAAAAAACwg/F7AqxDrPjhg/s1600/ALOT13.png but with various variable names instead of beer cans.
03:30:35 <shachaf> kmc: Your CaPs are way too regular.
03:30:55 <shachaf> It WOuLd bE BeTTeR lIKe thiS
03:31:05 <kmc> that would be not better
03:31:17 <monqy> hOIW abut tYPing lIOEk this??
03:31:18 <shachaf> I didn't say it would be better.
03:31:27 <shachaf> It would be "BeTTeR". Which is a word that means "worse".
03:31:40 <monqy> fyi, bETTER means BeTTer
03:31:40 <kmc> good to know
03:31:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.23082
03:32:32 <shachaf> did you know: worcester is better
03:33:07 <shachaf> I'm going to Yosemite next weekend!
03:33:18 <monqy> 2012-04-26.txt:09:01:36: <shubshub> hi
03:33:19 <monqy> 2012-04-26.txt:09:01:59: <shubshub> anyone here????
03:33:19 <monqy> 2012-04-26.txt:09:02:43: <shubshub> I wanna Make my own version of brainfuck
03:33:19 <monqy> 2012-04-26.txt:09:03:04: <shubshub> whose PH
03:33:19 <monqy> 2012-04-26.txt:09:04:21: <shubshub> how do i make one
03:33:56 <shachaf> monqy: remrebrer twhen you said how predictable !
03:34:08 <monqy> remember when you ruined how predictable ! :(
03:34:22 <monqy> bad person evidence excibit A
03:34:30 <shubshub> alright the max variables is 6,000
03:34:47 <itidus20> shub.. sorry to mess with your way of expressing numbers
03:35:13 <monqy> I don't know what I'd even do with 6,000 variables
03:35:14 <shubshub> well its gonna be a big Language shachaf
03:35:17 <monqy> maybe build a house?
03:35:25 <monqy> then I could live in it
03:35:36 <monqy> it's enough variables, I could do it
03:35:36 <shachaf> monqy: do you live in a hosue
03:36:07 <TeruFSX> you should probably limit your variable amount in a more natural way, like how BASIC does it
03:36:21 <monqy> hey, 6,000 is perfectly natural
03:36:22 <shubshub> Python will be used to load everything Into the Language :D
03:36:59 <itidus20> shubshub: seriously.. it's fine to say 6 Thousand.. i was just being a bastard
03:37:34 <kmc> Colonel Exploits
03:37:50 <monqy> itidus20: were you trolling
03:38:32 <shachaf> monqy: I heard itidus2 turns to stone during the day
03:39:11 <shachaf> i hearde eliot has a hearte of stone :"
03:39:14 <kmc> i heard itidus1 gets stoned during the day
03:39:39 <shachaf> kmc: I thought that was you. :-(
03:40:02 <HackEgo> 697) <shachaf> You should get kmc in this channel. kmc has good quotes. <shachaf> `quote kmc <HackEgo> 686) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks <shachaf> Well, in theory.
03:40:15 <HackEgo> 133) <CakeProphet> how does a "DNA computer" work. <CakeProphet> von neumann machines? <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, that's boring in the context of DNA. <Phantom_Hoover> It's just stealing the universe's work and passing it off as our own.
03:40:39 <shachaf> kmc: I still have a file full of quotes from you that I was going to make an IRC bot out of.
03:40:46 <shachaf> But then you didn't like the idea so I stopped.
03:40:54 <shachaf> Also by "full" I mean 3-5 lines.
03:41:02 <shachaf> But it's the entirety of the file, so the file is full of them.
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04:23:40 <shubshub> so far my language loads Variables and a User Input
04:23:55 <kmc> that one is almost german capitalizatino
04:25:09 <kmc> that's not what happened
04:25:24 <kmc> i ducked and you fell over comically into a pile of english grammar books
04:30:16 <itidus20> "<shubshub> so far my language loads Variables and a User Input" !!!time to celebrate
04:30:43 <kmc> Time To celebrate
04:31:21 <kmc> TcIeMlEe bTrOa t e
04:31:52 <TeruFSX> could we see an example program in this language, as it stands right now?
04:32:21 <shubshub> Its not able to do anything yet\
04:32:53 <kmc> it's not so much a language as a burlap sack full of spiders
04:33:38 <kmc> a friend of mine paid off his final university bill with a burlap sack full of gold coins
04:33:41 <kmc> with a dollar sign drawn on it
04:34:11 <itidus20> I have a coffee jar full of silver coins.
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04:55:10 <absentswett> So, as you can tell by my nick, I'm going to be going away for one week, on some sort of fun thing.
04:55:19 <absentswett> This information is definitely contained in my nick.
04:55:24 <shubshub> oh i though it said absents wet
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06:36:18 <ion> I haven’t got around to studying it, but i’ve been meaning to.
06:36:34 <ion> A LYAA would be helpful.
06:36:41 <shubshub> Venom Is being Developed Using The Ruby Programming Language'
06:36:56 <shachaf> ion: You should write one!
06:37:06 <shachaf> (Actually it already exists.)
06:37:27 <ion> shubshub: Should we pronounce “being” in a different way compared to all the other words in that sentence?
06:37:42 <ion> VENOM IS… (whispers) being… DEVELOPED USING
06:37:54 <shachaf> No pronounce it the same way as one of the other words.
06:38:00 <shachaf> VENOM IS VENOM DEVELOPED USING
06:38:03 <shachaf> VENOM IS IS DEVELOPED USING?
06:38:47 <shubshub> Venom is being developed using the Ruby Programming Language
06:39:12 <kmc> my brain hurts
06:39:18 <ion> Is the Ruby Programming Language™ the same thing as Ruby?
06:39:18 <shachaf> "Venom is ... the Ruby Programming Language"
06:39:29 <kmc> ion: https://github.com/liamoc/learn-you-an-agda
06:39:46 <kmc> venom is Being developed using the ruby programming language"
06:40:06 <ion> kmc: Thanks. Ah, i already saw that link but http://learnyouanagda.com/ that it links to didn’t work and i forgot about it.
06:40:56 <kmc> venom Is Being Developed Using The ruby programming language
06:41:19 <shubshub> VENOM IS BEING DEVELOPED USING THE RUBY PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE
06:41:29 <kmc> much better
06:41:31 <shachaf> VENOM IS BEING DEVELOPED USING THE RUBY PROGRAMMInG LANGUAGE
06:41:47 <Sgeo_> VeNoM iS bEiNg DeVeLoPeD uSi... /me shuts up
06:42:10 <shachaf> How many feet does a developed have?
06:42:40 <ion> Ｖenom Ｉs being Ｄeveloped Ｕsing Ｔhe Ｒuby Ｐrogramming Ｌanguage
06:44:16 <Sgeo_> What Language is Venom being Developed in?
06:44:24 <kmc> nevermind what Language
06:44:27 * Sgeo_ decides that now is the perfect time to stop being an asshole
06:44:29 <kmc> i want to know What language
06:44:46 <kmc> no actually
06:44:50 <kmc> i want to Know What Language
06:44:53 <kmc> if you Know What I Mean
06:45:22 <kmc> shachaf: is that a version of monqy which is better because it's written in Haskell?
06:45:58 <ion> the Ｖａｒｉａｂｌｅ Ｄｅｆｉｎｅｒ Ｉ Ｊｕｓｔ Ｍａｄｅ can set about 10 Ｔｈｏｕｓａｎｄ Ｖａｒｉａｂｌｅｓ Ｅｖｅｒｙ Ｍｉｎｕｔｅ
06:47:01 <shachaf> Does the c in kmc stand for cynical?
06:47:36 <ion> The c in kmc stands for ｄｏｎｇｓ?
06:47:37 <monqy> dongs doesn't start with c, kmc
06:48:41 <shachaf> kmc: How do you type in fullwidth characters?
06:48:53 <kmc> putStr . map (toEnum . (+ (fromEnum 'Ｅ' - fromEnum 'E')) . fromEnum) $ "INCEPTION"
06:48:53 <ion> perl -CS -Mutf8 -pwe 'y/!-~/！-～/; y/ / /'
06:49:01 <kmc> ion: of course, why didn't I think of that
06:49:25 <kmc> oh, that actually makes sense
06:49:26 <ion> foo c | c == ' ' = ' ' | c >= '!' && c <= '~' = chr (ord c + ord '！' - ord '!') | otherwise = c
06:49:36 <shachaf> Ｍｙ ｍｅｔｈｏｄ ｉｓ ｃｌｅａｒｌｙ ｓｕｐｅｒｉｏｒ．
06:49:43 <shachaf> Ｄｅｓｐｉｔｅ ｂｅｉｎｇ ｒｅａｌｌｙ ｉｎｃｏｎｖｅｎｉｅｎｔ．
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07:12:07 <shubshub> Apparently venom has already been made by someone else
07:13:13 <pikhq_> Unfortunately, my IME doesn't much care for inputting fullwidth Latin text to my terminal.
07:13:34 <pikhq_> Aaand I'm too lazy to use a script.
07:13:35 <shubshub> so im renaming the language To Poison :d
07:16:05 <pikhq_> I'm afraid that Capitalisation in the German Manner has been out of Vogue for Centuries in the English Language.
07:20:15 <Sgeo_> shubshub, just don't rename it to a single letter
07:20:23 <Sgeo_> They're hard to google and most of them are in use
07:20:58 <itidus20> V is a pretty good name but take their advice on this. don't call it V
07:21:02 <Sgeo_> shubshub, because most letters are taken.
07:21:20 <pikhq_> Though not most codepoints.
07:21:26 <Sgeo_> Off the top of my head
07:21:33 <Sgeo_> Wait, A? Or did I make that up
07:22:02 <shachaf> monqy: Am I a good person now;
07:22:11 <Sgeo_> shachaf, I got all the ones that I knew of off the top of my head at that moment..\
07:22:12 <itidus20> i am clueless about languages but I know that the following exist: C, C#, C++, D, F#, J++, R
07:22:17 <pikhq_> Why, U+1F432, 🐱, is perfectly open!
07:22:49 <Sgeo_> shubshub, somewhat
07:23:16 <Sgeo_> shubshub, to be honest, not especially
07:23:23 <shubshub> Im Gonna Officially Call My Language V#+-
07:23:35 <itidus20> I don't know much about it but yeah...
07:23:44 <Sgeo_> People may think it's a Microsoft language
07:23:56 <pikhq_> Actually, it'd probably work best as --C++#
07:24:10 <shubshub> why would they think its a Microsoft language
07:24:16 <shachaf> Much better language than C#
07:24:28 <Sgeo_> shubshub, several Microsoft languages end with #
07:24:45 <Sgeo_> C#, F#. J# I think
07:25:34 <shubshub> no i dont like V something something
07:25:37 <Sgeo_> What other MS languages end with #?
07:25:51 <shubshub> V^^ (what would that be called)
07:26:25 <monqy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_Sharp_(programming_language)
07:26:40 <monqy> it's on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%E2%99%AF page but it doesn't exist?? hlep
07:27:38 <Sgeo_> GHC is worked on by MS people and a lot of internals have names ending with #, does that count?
07:27:42 <shachaf> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_Licious_(Mushroom_Soup_Brand)
07:30:01 <itidus20> it just occured to me shubshub doesn't know yet about the matrix of solidity
07:30:45 <HackEgo> 287) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
07:31:56 <itidus20> its a mysterious quote which noone quite understands
07:32:34 <ion> shubshub: To Poison sounds like a nice name for a language.
07:33:03 <ion> sgeo: GHC#
07:33:12 <itidus20> probably delquote is appropriate here
07:34:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: del: not found
07:34:23 <shubshub> `addquote <shubshub> When In Doubt V** Out
07:34:26 <HackEgo> 851) <shubshub> When In Doubt V** Out
07:34:49 <HackEgo> 850) <shubshub> When In Doubt V** Out
07:34:56 <HackEgo> *poof* <shubshub> When In Doubt V** Out
07:35:09 <HackEgo> 849) <ion> 99 bugs in the bug tracker, 99 reports of bugs. Take one down and commit a fix, 106 bugs in the bug tracker.
07:35:20 <HackEgo> 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her.
07:35:54 <shubshub> `addquote <shubshub> `addquote 9001
07:35:58 <HackEgo> 850) <shubshub> `addquote 9001
07:36:06 <HackEgo> 850) <shubshub> `addquote 9001
07:36:39 <monqy> what's perfect about it
07:36:48 <HackEgo> *poof* <shubshub> `addquote 9001
07:36:52 <itidus20> shubshub: the quotes are a very special almost sacred thing :D (though i havent been here long) it is for your own good that they delete them
07:38:26 <coppro> that's what they want you to think
07:39:22 <shubshub> its different cuz it adds a negati ve to u instead of taking away a positive :D
07:39:31 <shubshub> omg there shud be a rating bot
07:39:42 <shubshub> where when u use the + or - then a number
07:40:00 <lambdabot> You can't change your own karma, silly.
07:40:18 <ion> @karma+ monqy
07:40:58 <monqy> @ask elliott i taught shubshub how to use @karma-
07:41:07 <ion> @karma+ monqy
07:41:09 <ion> @karma+ monqy
07:41:15 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
07:42:31 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: karma karma+ karma-
07:42:38 <itidus20> shubshub: would you like to learn brainfuck?
07:42:54 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
07:43:01 <itidus20> i must warn it is called brainfuck for a reason..
07:44:00 <itidus20> anyway.. there is 8 instructions in brainfuck: < > + - . , [ ]
07:44:07 <ion> Hmm. @karma should store who gave each + and - and weight the totals by the givers’ karmas.
07:45:20 <itidus20> i can't really brainfuck at all.. it boggles my mind
07:45:36 <itidus20> even though theoretically i know what each instruction does
07:45:46 <coppro> ion: EMULTIPLESOLUTIONS
07:45:55 <ion> coppro: sure
07:46:57 <itidus20> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[.]
07:46:57 <fungot> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ...
07:48:05 <fungot> <CTCP>.. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
07:48:55 <fungot> <CTCP>.. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
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07:55:06 <itidus20> the ! thing is unusual in brainfuck.. it means that after it to put some input
07:55:26 <itidus20> i forgot what it was for a while
07:58:42 <fungot> abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~
07:59:51 <itidus20> to do useful things in brainfuck will give a headache though
08:00:17 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
08:00:17 <EgoBot> 111 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>. [393]
08:00:47 <shubshub> ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
08:01:01 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
08:01:12 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for befunge!
08:01:30 <itidus20> oh.. well befunge makes brainfuck look easy
08:01:45 <shubshub> !bf_txtgen Hello There My Name Is Shubshub and I will be Helping you write in BrainFuck
08:01:48 <EgoBot> 752 +++++++++++++++[>+++++>++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>---.>>----.>+++..+++.<<++.<++++++++++++.>>+++.---.>+++.<.<.<-------.>>>+++++++.<<.<+.>>----.>------------.<++++.<.<-----.>>>++++++.<<.<++++++++++.+++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++++++++.>>---.>.<++++++.>++.-------------------.<<.>-------.<<-------.>>>++.--------------------------------------------------------------------.<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>.<<<+++++++++.--------------.+++..>>>.<+.+++.>.<<
08:01:53 <Lumpio-> Befunge is much more usable
08:01:59 <shubshub> ^bf +++++++++++++++[>+++++>++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>---.>>----.>+++..+++.<<++.<++++++++++++.>>+++.---.>+++.<.<.<-------.>>>+++++++.<<.<+.>>----.>------------.<++++.<.<-----.>>>++++++.<<.<++++++++++.+++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++++++++.>>---.>.<++++++.>++.-------------------.<<.>-------.<<-------.>>>++.--------------------------------------------------------------------.<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>.<<<+++++++++.--------
08:01:59 <fungot> Hello There My Name Is Shubshub and I w
08:02:12 <Lumpio-> Why do you capitalize randomly
08:02:15 <shubshub> well atleast it makes alot of brainfucking sence
08:03:06 <itidus20> shubshub: the most easy to understand instruction is the . since that is the output
08:03:28 <shubshub> itidus20 can you teach me Befunge and who invented it and why and what it does and what it was amde in
08:03:30 <augur_> anyone have suggestions for a good abstract strategy game?
08:03:42 <itidus20> no im an idiot at these things
08:04:12 <shubshub> Its Basically a Befunge Interpreter written In Befunge :D
08:05:21 <shubshub> the I has to be capitilzied its proper grammer
08:06:07 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
08:06:21 <pikhq_> shubshub: You lose that argument when you otherwise avoid typical usage.
08:06:27 <ion> “the I has to be capitilzied its proper grammer” was actually quite funny.
08:06:40 <Lumpio-> shubshub: I wasn't referring to that
08:06:51 <shubshub> `addquote <shubshub> the I has to be capitilized its proper grammer
08:06:55 <HackEgo> 850) <shubshub> the I has to be capitilized its proper grammer
08:06:58 <pikhq_> Meh, I'm a bit of a pedant, though.
08:07:02 <ion> `delquote 850
08:07:06 <HackEgo> *poof* <shubshub> the I has to be capitilized its proper grammer
08:07:09 <ion> Not *that* funny. :-P
08:07:32 <Lumpio-> The funny part was that that sentence was grammatically broken.
08:07:53 <itidus20> shubshub: when you put ^bf you start at 0 .. so when you put a + its like "+1" .. and putting - is like "-1"
08:08:01 <pikhq_> `addquote <Lumpio-> STOP CAPITALIZING <Lumpio-> It's making me feel weird <shubshub> the I has to be capitilized its proper grammer
08:08:04 <HackEgo> 850) <Lumpio-> STOP CAPITALIZING <Lumpio-> It's making me feel weird <shubshub> the I has to be capitilized its proper grammer
08:08:13 <HackEgo> *poof* <Lumpio-> STOP CAPITALIZING <Lumpio-> It's making me feel weird <shubshub> the I has to be capitilized its proper grammer
08:08:22 <shubshub> no pikhq it wasnt that funny at all
08:08:50 <ion> lumpio: He knows, he did that intentionally.
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08:09:27 <ion> He’s doing *all* of what he’s doing intentionally.
08:09:48 <shubshub> Im making a proper programming language now :D
08:09:57 <ion> He gets kicks from us getting all riled up from his tactics. :-)
08:10:02 <pikhq_> It would take astounding stupid to avoid typical usage that well.
08:10:11 <monqy> Phantom_Hoover: he's been here ever since he started being here
08:10:19 <pikhq_> Then again, there exists such stupid.
08:10:27 <Lumpio-> This guy might be for real
08:10:38 <pikhq_> Lumpio-: No, zzo38 merely speaks zzo38ese, not English.
08:10:48 <itidus20> shubshub: so with the brainfuck program of "-1" then "output" what happens is 0 -1 = 255! so it outputs character 255! :D
08:10:49 <pikhq_> By sheer coincidence the two languages share some mutual comprehensibility.
08:10:54 <ion> But i must admit shubshub is more entertaining than most trolls.
08:10:58 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?
08:11:07 <EgoBot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?
08:11:13 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
08:11:18 <itidus20> my wording makes no sense don't mind me
08:11:24 <Phantom_Hoover> ion, dammit, that takes all the fun out of yelling at dumb languages
08:11:49 <itidus20> ^bf -------------------------------------------------------.
08:12:01 <itidus20> ^bf -------------------------------------------------------.++.++.+++.++.+..+.....
08:12:11 <shubshub> !bf_txtgen Join the #PoisonLang Channel
08:12:14 <EgoBot> 241 +++++++++++++++[>+++++>++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>-.>>++++++.>.<-.<++.>++++++.>-.---.<<.+++.<++++++.>>-----.>++++.<++++.----.-.<<----.>>-------------.>+++++.-------.<<---.<---------.>>+++++++.>------.<++++++..>++++.<--.<----------------------. [531]
08:12:22 <shubshub> ^bf +++++++++++++++[>+++++>++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>-.>>++++++.>.<-.<++.>++++++.>-.---.<<.+++.<++++++.>>-----.>++++.<++++.----.-.<<----.>>-------------.>+++++.-------.<<---.<---------.>>+++++++.>------.<++++++..>++++.<--.<----------------------.
08:12:22 <fungot> Join the #PoisonLang Channel.
08:13:20 <itidus20> ^bf ---.+.-.+.-.+...-...+...-...+.....
08:13:37 * pikhq_ declares sleep beneficial, and does so.
08:13:47 <itidus20> so whats happening there is every time theres a . it outputs a character
08:14:15 <fizzie> pikhq_: So you declare sleep beneficial, and declare sleep beneficial.
08:14:27 <itidus20> but i must admit the good stuff is too complicated for me
08:14:58 <itidus20> i can't stand trying to compare 2 numbers in bf
08:15:00 <fizzie> There are some "useful" bits in.
08:15:20 <fungot> >>,[[-<+2>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<2[>+6[<+8>-]<-.[-]<]+32.[-]>>,]
08:15:23 <fungot> ,[>[->+10<]>[-<+>]<2-48[>+<-],]>.
08:15:59 <ion> I found the method of randomly capitalizing words to chafe our OCDs very innovative.
08:16:01 <fizzie> I'll be gone in fifteen minutes or so.
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08:17:52 <shubshub> ^bf +++++++++++++++[>+++++>++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>-.>>++++++.>.<-.<++.>++++++.>-.---.<<.+++.<++++++.>>-----.>++++.<++++.----.-.<<----.>>-------------.>+++++.-------.<<---.<---------.>>+++++++.>------.<++++++..>++++.<--.<----------------------.
08:17:52 <fungot> Join the #PoisonLang Channel.
08:18:13 <itidus20> ok fair enough there is no chr 256 it wins
08:19:15 <ion> > (text . pure . chr) 256
08:19:17 <lambdabot> mueval-core: <stdout>: hPutChar: invalid argument (Invalid or incomplete mu...
08:19:46 <ion> λ> (putStrLn . pure . Data.Char.chr) 256
08:21:11 <shubshub> TABS9597 you should make a programming language
08:22:02 <TABS9597> Im no good with programing languages
08:24:30 <fizzie> But you can't put a 0 over IRC.
08:24:48 <itidus20> i didn't think that deeply about it
08:30:30 <fizzie> It doesn't really check for errors.
08:31:17 <fizzie> : is the digit 10 and so on.
08:32:16 -!- shubshub has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ <--- EsoTeric Languages :D :P.
08:32:40 <fizzie> And / is the -1th digit.
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08:40:47 <shubshub> fizzie: Can fungot accept Python programming for an interpreter?
08:40:47 <fungot> shubshub: wtf! lol i dribbled just got mind raped i was going to be a real dumb one too, or in this
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08:53:55 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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09:00:33 <madbr> shubshub: you should try making a functional language
09:00:59 <madbr> functional not as in "it works"
09:01:41 <madbr> as in "you process functions... take in functions, process them, make new functions"
09:03:12 <monqy> shubshub: remember what I told you about Monads?
09:03:35 <madbr> tbh I don't understand monads yet
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09:05:16 <monqy> shubshub: you should take a look at a monad tutorial
09:06:05 <monqy> monad tutorials are fun!
09:06:10 <monqy> they tutorial you about monads
09:06:32 <itidus20> i think shub can do it but he will be a tough nut to crack
09:06:44 <monqy> shubshub: see, even itidus20 believes in you!
09:06:51 <itidus20> i know monads are beyond me though
09:07:20 <madbr> shachaf: what language do you normally program in
09:08:39 <shachaf> monqy: firstte steppe, a monad is just a monadoid in the endomonocategory of monads
09:09:01 <monqy> shubshub: listen to shachaf
09:09:05 <monqy> shubshub: he knows monads
09:09:32 <shachaf> shubshub: listem to me,i no monads good
09:09:56 <shachaf> if you break the monad laws you go to monad jail
09:10:06 <itidus20> shubshub: they could make you rich to be honest
09:10:23 <shachaf> itidus20: monadse can make you rich beyond your wildest dreames
09:10:30 <shachaf> itidus20: monadse can make you poor beyond your wildest dreames
09:10:56 <shachaf> itidus20: monadse can make you foamous beyond your wildest dreames
09:11:23 <Phantom_Hoover> ok some of the teaspoons in my house have "hospital property" engraved on them.
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09:12:22 <shachaf> elliott: Don't listen to monqy. monqy doesn't even know monads.
09:12:25 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the nhs is subsidising my teaspoons, spread the word
09:13:09 <itidus20> Phantom_Hoover: the plastic cup i drink from everyday is one i had in my pocket by accident after a viist to someones house
09:13:27 <itidus20> i can't even remember why it was in my pocket.. it wasn't a stealing attempt
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09:15:20 <itidus20> and cheap plastic thermuses are a joke
09:15:44 <shubshub> I Updated my !!!Batch Page with the source code of !!!Batch!Py!Batch Source Code :D (The Failed Yet Would Work Only If... !!!Batch Interpreter Written In !!!Batch)
09:18:36 <elliott> shachaf: do you have ipv6?
09:18:45 <shachaf> elliott: On my serverthing.
09:18:54 <elliott> everyone has ipv6 on their serverthing
09:19:10 <shachaf> Internet Protocolversion 6.
09:19:20 <monqy> ipv6 is out now? :o
09:19:28 <monqy> where i'm from all they've got is ipv5
09:19:30 <elliott> Protocolversion is french for protocol version
09:19:54 <shachaf> TWIST: IT'S ACTUALLY CHINESE.
09:20:17 <monqy> please say yes I love double twists oh :(
09:23:51 <shachaf> monqy: What's southern California like?
09:24:00 <shachaf> I almost went there this year.
09:24:37 <itidus20> it's shaped like a gerrymander
09:25:58 <shachaf> kmc: "You want rockstars you better be a rockstar yourself. Brogrammer startup job fairs are not going to cut it."
09:26:24 <itidus20> i just happened to be on the relevant wiki page
09:26:25 <itidus20> "The odd shapes of California Senate districts in Southern California (2008) have led to claims of gerrymandering."
09:27:24 <qfr> Brogrammers and hogrammersw
09:28:12 <Lumpio-> All they can do is copy and paste together some jquery mvc framework and python on rails or whatever and then boast about it to their friends at the coffee shop
09:28:28 <Lumpio-> Also they make "mashups" not software
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09:28:58 <itidus20> who do they think they are meeting up with friends at coffee shops, the people from the tv show 'friends'?
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09:34:29 <shachaf> This channel is such a waste of time.
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09:35:10 <shubshub> Quick Give me a language to create a new esoteric in
09:36:06 <monqy> oh no, shachaf :'(
09:36:37 <shubshub> nortti: No just no too difficult
09:37:35 <shubshub> Give Me Another Language to make a new esoteric in quick!
09:38:14 <Sgeo_> itidus20, am I not allowed to have a nasty streak on occasion?
09:38:35 <itidus20> do we have an interpreter for it in here though?
09:38:42 <shubshub> Sgeo_ you cant make a new esoteric in HQ9+
09:39:04 <itidus20> not that that is a requirement
09:39:34 <Sgeo_> shubshub, there's a great language called English.
09:39:45 <Sgeo_> It's a very good language to make an esoteric language with
09:40:06 * shubshub wonders If every living language is written in english?
09:40:27 <itidus20> http://esolangs.org/wiki/English
09:41:21 <Sgeo_> shubshub, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Gravity there is no program capable of interpreting or compiling programs written in Gravity
09:41:43 <Sgeo_> shubshub, I think the snarky thing to say about Perl is that the only spec for Perl is the implementation of Perl
09:42:22 * shubshub would have to now make a Gravity Interpreter Lol
09:43:49 <Sgeo_> shubshub, it's not possible. Well, hmm, I wonder if you could make a program to do it... but running the program would require infinite hardware
09:44:02 <Sgeo_> Or some other sort of infinity computer
09:44:27 <Sgeo_> Wait, turing-machines are infinite memory
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09:45:57 <shubshub> what esoteric language is the most easiest to learn and can do alot of stuff?
09:46:20 <itidus20> im awful at explaining it but bf is really actually quite powerful
09:46:45 <Sgeo_> itidus20, in terms of what it can compute, at least
09:47:40 <nortti> shubshub: at least if you have ever used forth
09:47:44 <itidus20> ^bf ,[.,]!this program prints everything after the exclamation mark... so its sort of like echo
09:47:44 <fungot> this program prints everything after the exclamation mark... so its sort of like echo
09:48:02 <fungot> this program prints everything after the exclamation mark... so its sort of like echo
09:48:38 <Sgeo_> shubshub, Brainfuck is capable of any computation a computer can make.
09:48:44 <itidus20> i dunno how it keeps that stuff in memory
09:49:09 <EgoBot> 56 +++++++++[>+++++>++++++++++>+><<<<-]>-.>+.<++.--.>++.>+. [191]
09:49:17 <shubshub> ^bf +++++++++[>+++++>++++++++++>+><<<<-]>-.>+.<++.--.>++.>+.
09:49:24 <shubshub> ^bf +++++++++[>+++++>++++++++++>+><<<<-]>-.>+.<++.--.>++.>+.+++++++++[>+++++>++++++++++>+><<<<-]>-.>+.<++.--.>++.>+.+++++++++[>+++++>++++++++++>+><<<<-]>-.>+.<++.--.>++.>+.+++++++++[>+++++>++++++++++>+><<<<-]>-.>+.<++.--.>++.>+.
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09:49:50 <itidus20> shubshub: ok ill explain it now or try to
09:50:33 <shubshub> ititdus20 r u any good at programming in brainfuck???
09:50:38 <itidus20> the comma means read in a character from the input.. the [ and ] sort of form a loop .. and the dot outputs a character
09:51:05 <itidus20> so the simplest program to use input and output would be like this
09:51:35 <shubshub> Whats The Most Diffcult Language To Learn Thats An EsoTeric
09:52:11 <itidus20> hmm.... i may have got smoething wrong there
09:52:14 <shubshub> nortti: I DONT WANT TO USE MALBOLGE
09:52:30 <Sgeo_> shubshub, does BancSTAR count as esoteric?
09:52:59 <itidus20> after the ! is the input into the program..
09:53:17 <itidus20> so ,. just reads a single character and outputs it
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09:54:16 <Sgeo_> shubshub, this is not an esolang, but here you go http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BANCStar_programming_language
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09:54:54 <Sgeo_> shubshub, it may as well be an esolang, it's more incomprehensible than many esolangs
09:54:55 <shubshub> @ask elliott Do You Know any Epic EsoLangs I should Program with?
09:54:59 <itidus20> i suspect from his id he was one of the other type of esoteric
09:55:55 <Sgeo_> There's something absurd about that exchange
09:56:03 <Sgeo_> You can tell yourself... why can't I tell myself
09:57:15 <shubshub> why is Java listed as a Joke Language?
09:57:37 <Sgeo_> Because a lot of people dislike it
09:57:59 <Sgeo_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Java
09:59:08 <nortti> Is asm not meant for human use? Have I misuded it for 3 years?
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10:07:46 <itidus20> "All popular modern languages are defined via a definitional interpreter with accompanying O’Reilly “animal” book. The work on Wikiplia is unrelated: We have no animal mascot"
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10:24:19 <shubshub> I Just added capital lettering to !Py!Batch
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10:25:59 <elliott> batch derivatives and fi ligatures
10:26:27 <oklopol> and when you say derivatives, i assume someone made a batch manifold?
10:29:03 <oklopol> a manifold is a topological space where all points have a neighborhood homeomorphic to euclidean space, and these homeomorphisms are compatible so that essentially you have a "locally euclidean" space with the global structure possily being very different.
10:29:38 <shubshub> well I didnt do that with my Batch Derivative
10:29:40 <oklopol> for instance a cirle looks like the reals locally, but globally it's a bit different.
10:29:52 <shubshub> http://esolangs.org/wiki/!!!Batch
10:29:57 <oklopol> also stricly speaking you cannot make a countable manifold
10:31:12 <oklopol> because euclidean space, that is, R^n for R the reals and n a natural number is uncountable, so you need to have at least the cardinality of reals
10:31:41 <oklopol> but i figured maybe you gave a better definition that doesn't have this horrible flaw.
10:32:04 <shubshub> do you like my programming language?
10:32:49 <elliott> Lumpio-: i know a great solution to capital problems
10:33:12 <oklopol> Was Created By Shubshub To Make Programming In Batch More Challenging and to Make it seem Better as it is Theoreticly Unreadable
10:33:12 <oklopol> Unless you use the Translator
10:33:31 <oklopol> sounds even more awesome than what i suggested
10:33:47 <elliott> theory don't always match up with practice y'know
10:34:23 <Lumpio-> elliott: What's your solution
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10:34:35 <elliott> Lumpio-: well it starts with /ig
10:34:39 <elliott> and ends with nore shubshub
10:34:44 <oklopol> when you say theoretically unreadable, i assume you mean parsing is high in the arithmetical hierarchy
10:34:52 <Lumpio-> ...I actually read that as regexp flags first
10:35:02 <Lumpio-> And was like "wait don't those go in the end"
10:35:20 <oklopol> what "seem" means is outside my understanding of game theory really
10:36:42 <oklopol> Without An Infinite Line Translator Code The Program Can Only Interpret Things On The set str= and Does not Handle set commands very well then executing another command after as It will most likely skip over that next command completely
10:37:52 <oklopol> http://esolangs.org/wiki/!!!Batch look how unreadable the code is?!?! that's basically UNREADABLE :D
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10:39:11 <elliott> sorry im not a good typier
10:41:18 <oklopol> hey duddes how about this language i've been designing the last 4 months where you take brainfuck except well call it brainfuckER and you reverse all the characters, and you have to draw the program in paint? and then there's brainfuckiest where you just say beep boop in a microphone and it's interpreted as a fibonacci code word and then it's multiplied by 7 and then it's interpreted as a brainfuck program except that if you print the same thing twice
10:43:33 <elliott> can you put those on the wiki
10:45:22 <oklopol> doesn't sound like something i'd do, but you can if you wish. how many bf derivatives are there out there?
10:54:48 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p9485438415.txt do you like my new language
10:55:17 <elliott> can you put it on the wiki
10:55:43 <oklopol> can't you do these complicated things for me :D
10:55:56 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Most_ever_Brainfuckiest_Fuck_you_Brain_fucker_Fuck&action=edit&redlink=1
10:56:01 <elliott> there that's like 90% of the effort done
10:56:21 <elliott> oklopol: did u see my brainfuck derivative
10:56:26 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Not_a_brainfuck_derivative
10:56:39 <elliott> its not as good as most ever brainfuckiest fuck you brain fucker fuck :(
10:57:21 <oklopol> almost left my nick out, but it's there now.
10:57:42 <elliott> oklopol: it's in the revision history anyway
10:58:03 <oklopol> but it needs to be explicit so people know the great work i do.
10:58:13 <elliott> fighting the temptation to put {{featured language}} on that
10:58:42 <oklopol> note that i have no idea if that's brainfuck complete :D
10:58:53 <elliott> go fucking yourself is definitely braincufk copmpetle
10:59:07 <oklopol> it's an important open question
10:59:40 <oklopol> holy fuck you're intelligent
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11:15:07 <oklopol> i think i have to get my colleague in on my next brainfuck project
11:18:33 <oklopol> it will be turing complete iff riemann's hypothesis is true XOR p != np.
11:18:51 <elliott> there's already a language whose tcness is predicated on goldbach's conjceture fwiw
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11:19:05 <elliott> (cpressey's Oozlybub and Murphy)
11:20:02 <oklopol> i didn't know that. in any case, that's not the only point.
11:22:14 <oklopol> that actually looks kind of interesting (at least its introduction)
11:23:11 <elliott> it's a cpressey lang of course it's interesting
11:23:31 <elliott> he and ais523 and oerjan are the only people who should be allowed to make esolangs
11:23:42 <oklopol> perhaps i will just make it trivially tc, but base the solution on obscure theorems no one knows.
11:24:02 <oklopol> hey, clue is pretty awesome.
11:24:35 <elliott> SEE WHAT I DID THERE???!?!?!?!?!?!???!?!?!?!?!?!??!??!?!?!?!??!??!?!?!??!?!?!??!!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!
11:25:40 <oklopol> i'm watching numb3rs for inspiration
11:26:40 <HackEgo> 766) <oklopol> speaking of math, i watched an episode of numb3rs today <oklopol> the first episode was more like 57471571c5
11:26:58 <HackEgo> 849) <ion> 99 bugs in the bug tracker, 99 reports of bugs. Take one down and commit a fix, 106 bugs in the bug tracker.
11:27:18 <HackEgo> 850) <Lumpio-> STOP CAPITALIZING <Lumpio-> It's making me feel weird <shubshub> the I has to be capitilized its proper grammer
11:27:26 <oklopol> hehe, that's an awesome quote
11:27:51 <elliott> i don't believe him though
11:28:04 <ion> I was just paraphrasing someone on Slashdot (who probably was paraphrasing someone else).
11:28:05 <oklopol> everytime i see one of my old quotes i'm like lol that guy is hilllarrious
11:28:55 <elliott> that one isn't exactly old :P
11:29:09 <oklopol> feels like forever, i've continued watching.
11:29:34 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.10757
11:29:56 <oklopol> "37) <oklopol> i'm my dad's unborn sister" i agree with you on this one ofc
11:30:19 <elliott> i think i ended up deleting none of those
11:30:57 <oklopol> "153) <oklopol> pigeons are very smart. all the known ways to show a language is not regular are based on pigeons."
11:31:50 <elliott> oklopol: whats youre opinion on how the quotes should be identified
11:31:57 <elliott> there is widespread dissent against the "changing numbers" system
11:32:30 <elliott> the most promising options seem to be (a) unchanging numbers like they used to be (but this is kinda ugly) (b) a prefix of some cryptographic hash of the quote contents (c) just identify it by the quote itself (so you delete it by pasting the quote in) (d) timestamp
11:33:32 <oklopol> "312) [After a long monologue] <oklopol> i think i have to escape this heated discussion before it becomes a flamewar" classic oklopol
11:33:38 <elliott> oklopol: remember famous bisexuals
11:34:24 <elliott> 537) <oklopol> i started running and smoking <oklopol> i love my lungs the way they are so trying to balance them out
11:35:00 <oklopol> do i really need to have an opinion on that? well i certainly think you should be able to refer to a quote.
11:35:36 <elliott> yes it's mandatory for you to have an opinion on that
11:36:21 <elliott> 841) <elliott> gah <elliott> this language is of the devil <elliott> oklopol: you're meant to use your powers for _good_t
11:36:32 <elliott> i've forgotten that language already, thank god
11:37:18 <oklopol> 443) <oklopol> well you know because i could've used my "wtf, you have multiple identity elements smiley" o=oO=O <oklopol> yeah, i have a smiley for everything.
11:37:34 <elliott> i like how the quote is misplaced
11:38:09 <oklopol> "451) <oklopol> you know that thing in the movies where they put a pillow on someone's face and try to suffocate them <oklopol> that doesn't work. <oklopol> we tried that with my ex once, but we just couldn't kill each other that way" :SADSADD
11:40:04 <Gregor> Here's a fun conundrum:
11:40:40 <Gregor> My unionfs thing is based on the environment with which a process looking at the union was called. Which is all fine and good, I just need to get that info out of /proc/foo/environ
11:40:57 <Gregor> HOWEVER, if that process is in the middle of an execve, guess what /proc/foo/environ does!
11:41:17 <Gregor> If you guessed "it's empty", YOU'RE WRONG! It blocks until execve is finished!
11:41:43 <Gregor> And what if, ohhh, execve was waiting on some FS functions, which are themselves waiting on /proc/foo/environ?
11:42:28 <elliott> Gregor: are you implementing all the features i asked for
11:42:46 <elliott> Gregor: do you have to go through /proc surely the kernel has interfaces for this
11:43:02 <Gregor> Yes, the kernel does have interfaces for this. They're called /proc.
11:43:28 <Gregor> Yes, they go like this:
11:43:35 <Gregor> open("/proc/whatever/environ", O_RDONLY)
11:43:41 <elliott> anyway check whether the process is currently execveing? can you do tha
11:44:14 <Gregor> Maybe? But even if I do, then what? I still need the environment.
11:45:06 <elliott> Gregor: And always read environ right after execve (so that if the first thing a process does is execve, you still know what its environ was).
11:45:15 <Gregor> Cache it from where? I need the environment that was /passed/ to execve.
11:45:25 <Gregor> Which may not be the environment of the caller.
11:45:27 <elliott> Cache it from previous requests.
11:45:38 <oklopol> look at you two being famous bisexuals together
11:45:46 <elliott> I'd expect it to use the original environ to resolve the request for the executable.
11:45:56 <elliott> But you could override execve somehow.
11:46:03 <Gregor> So then it's just a trick of figuring out if I'm in execve.
11:46:14 <elliott> Gregor: Consider running /secret/highlyprivate/motherfuck/executables/viruspoop.exe in a restricted environment.
11:46:30 <elliott> With your design, there'd be no way to run an executable in a heavily restricted environment.
11:46:38 <elliott> (Without specifically moving it somewhere to give it access to itself.)
11:46:53 <elliott> Also, it'd mean that you could pass exec a path that doesn't exist (from your perspective) and have things work, which is just weird.
11:47:14 <elliott> Gregor: HOWEVER make sure /proc/self/exe doesn't break if you use the parent's environment.
11:47:19 <elliott> You might have to re-link it somehow.
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11:47:45 <elliott> (Obviously it's fine for it to stay broken if you specifically run it in a union without access to itself, though.)
11:48:52 <oklopol> did you see my new brainfuck derivative? it's almost as good as the original.
11:49:44 <oklopol> really the connection is quite subtle
11:49:59 <Gregor> elliott: The call related to execing can be the very first call the unionfs sees :'(
11:50:04 <oklopol> the language was inspired by the seminal work of shubshub
11:50:19 <elliott> Ngevd: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Most_ever_Brainfuckiest_Fuck_you_Brain_fucker_Fuck
11:50:32 <elliott> Gregor: 12:45 <elliott> Gregor: And always read environ right after execve (so that if the first thing a process does is execve, you still know what its environ was).
11:50:49 <Gregor> elliott: Dude, I'm a filesystem.
11:50:58 <elliott> Gregor: So? You're in kernelspace.
11:51:02 <elliott> Can't you register that kind of shit?
11:51:17 <Gregor> No, I'm still FUSE. And even if I was in kernelspace, is it really appropriate to instrument every program >_<
11:51:29 <oklopol> Ngevd: elliott proved it's in fact _not_ brainfuck complete
11:51:48 <elliott> Gregor: Oh, FUSE? Well, fuck that.
11:51:52 <elliott> Gregor: Get into kernelspace, man.
11:51:56 <elliott> You can do things like instrument every program.
11:51:57 <Gregor> Although maybe this is the most compelling argument yet that I need to stop being FUSE X-D
11:52:17 <elliott> Gregor: If you specifically overrode execve, you could avoid the overhead of open/read after every execve.
11:52:27 <elliott> Since it gets pretty convenient access to the environment execve is passed :P
11:52:32 <oklopol> interestingly, the proof does not use standard recursion theoretic methods, but instead notes that fucking yourself is a bounded time process because nerds come really fast.
11:52:35 <elliott> Gregor: ALTERNATIVELY, you could use something that isn't the environment.
11:53:20 <elliott> Gregor: Hell if I know. How about getting into kernelspace (see a pattern here?) and adding your own execve-like syscall (or flag to an existing syscall) that contains the path to use?
11:53:42 <elliott> So that you only have overhead when the capabilities are being explicitly invoked, and always have direct access to the path.
11:54:24 <Gregor> execve is, roughly, the least interesting problem here >_>
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12:25:40 <absentswett> And you never can be, because asdfness doesn't exist.
12:32:26 <absentswett> Never mind. Saying "creibrodos" makes you asdf.
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12:39:29 <elliott> absentswett: i lost my asdf
12:41:35 <ion> Cheibriados?
12:41:57 * ion checks whether he remembered it correctly… apparently yes.
12:42:14 <ion> Known as Chei by friends.
12:44:50 <elliott> monqy laughs at chei so i laugh at chei too
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12:48:47 <ion> monqy plotted an assassination of the president so i plotted an assassination of the president too.
12:59:13 <elliott> ion: THEY INVENTED BERATEAHBLE AIR
13:03:12 <elliott> You answered this question within like 3 mins of asking which may as well be the time taken to type it. I saw it and was like "hey a Haskell question that I can answer and to which no one has answered yet, bring the rep train", and I go typing the answer when a new answer appears from an 20k rep guy telling just what I was about to say. You, experts, should really leave some questions alone for guys like us... :) – CodingTales 58 mi
13:05:50 <ion> Who implemented ＢＥＲＡＴＥＡＨＢＬＥ air?
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14:17:08 <elliott> "@CodingTales: The '20k brigade' tends to give rather succinct answers"
14:17:31 <elliott> "Also, you can set up email notifications for the haskell tag, and I'm sure having well-written explanations of the difference between IO a and a, the layout rule, and the monomorphism restriction at hand in a text file will help you beat them to the punch one day :-)"
14:17:44 <elliott> i've only been doing this for 4 months
14:18:26 <olsner> elliott: welcome to brigade
14:20:11 <elliott> im wondering whether to reply to
14:20:17 <elliott> those two comments or whether to just stay silent
14:20:57 <ion> Feeding conspiracies is always good.
14:21:23 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9050725/call-cc-implementation/9050907#9050907 <-- the 20k brigade tends to give rather succinct answers
14:21:27 <elliott> good thing i wrote that before i had 20k
14:29:22 <elliott> http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=4943 what a bug report
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14:42:31 <olsner> "Our problem is that those reports are being used by investment houses to make decisions sometimes worth billions, and we just cannot have those decisions made against wrong numbers."
14:47:50 <Deewiant> I've heard anecdotes about how you can't use fixed point even if you wanted to, because everybody expects the floating point level of accuracy...
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15:01:42 <elliott> fizzie: It's made of fire.
15:05:53 <elliott> [[It is currently permitted to define non-strictly-positive datatypes, such as
15:05:53 <elliott> data Bad = bad {Bad -> Bad} but don’t bet on that staying alive!]]
15:05:59 <elliott> Who would have guessed the owner of strictlypositive.org doesn't like those?
15:07:20 <Gregor> "Last edited by GregorR, in a few seconds"
15:07:54 <elliott> Gregor: That's what you get when using FeatherWiki.
15:08:11 <Gregor> It's also what you get when using GitHub's wiki, apparently.
15:08:27 <elliott> Gregor: What do you think that's coded in?
15:11:02 <elliott> Gregor: Do you have an opinion on the quote identifier issue?
15:12:33 <Gregor> " is the best identifier.
15:14:16 <elliott> "There is currently one built-in signature, declared as if
15:14:16 <elliott> sig Console = ouch Char | inch [] Char"
15:14:25 <elliott> We really must do something about McBride's naming.
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15:39:04 <Taneb> Everything needs to be more like Taneb
15:39:23 <Taneb> And that person on TVTropes called Tanebi
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16:56:34 <elliott> "I'm not too surprised the two languages are basically neck-and-neck here (a 10% difference is not noteworthy). Using C as a performance benchmark, Haskell loses some performance for its lazy functional nature, while Python loses some performance due to being an interpreted language. A decent match."
16:56:50 <elliott> lmao @ python users thinking that haskell has anything close to cpython's overhead
16:57:30 <elliott> Gregor: Do you know what happened when user put sleep(1) in the middle of their tight loop?
16:57:40 <elliott> Gregor: There was no statistically significant change in execution time.
17:00:21 <elliott> "Python is really optimized for this sort of thing. I suspect that Haskell isn't." YEAH PYTHON IS REALLY OPTIMISED FOR READING A FILE OF NUMERIC DATA AND QUICKSORTING IT
17:00:33 <elliott> HASKELL IS OPTIMISED SOLELY FOR OPERATING WITH
17:00:39 <elliott> That's why it's a functional language.
17:01:03 <elliott> (More like pure "boring"ctional, right?)
17:01:08 <elliott> This is so boring without shachaf.
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17:08:54 <elliott> MY THEFT IS NON-OPTIONAL!!!
17:17:52 <olsner> elliott: where did you find that python vs haskell thingy?
17:18:14 <elliott> Stupid answers to http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10357663/python-faster-than-compiled-haskell.
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17:56:58 <ion> “Python is really optimized for this sort of thing. I suspect that Haskell isn't.”
18:01:14 <ais523> ion: what sort of thing?
18:11:20 <ion> Ah, sorry, i only looked at the lines from the last ~hour.
18:13:42 <Gregor> "just" is certainly within the last hour ...
18:16:11 <elliott> Gregor: Don't you wish your compiler gave errors like these?
18:16:13 <elliott> Line ([PN "test"],RA [RN "throw",RN "inch",RBang]) (Raw () (RA [RN "throw",RN "inch",RBang]) (UnifyVFail {[Console, Throws Char, ] Char} Char))
18:16:25 <elliott> Line ([PN "main"],RQ (RA [RN "catch",RTh [([PN "a"],RA [RN "outch",RCh '!',RN ">>",RN "a"])]]) (RA [RN "throw",RCh 'a',RN ">>",RCh 'x'])) (Raw Char (RQ (RA [RN "catch",RTh [([PN "a"],RA [RN "outch",RCh '!',RN ">>",RN "a"])]]) (RA [RN "throw",RCh 'a',RN ">>",RCh 'x'])) (Raw {?0 -> [] ?1} (RTh [([PN "a"],RA [RN "outch",RCh '!',RN ">>",RN "a"])]) (Raw ?1 (RA [RN "outch",RCh '!',RN ">>",RN "a"]) (Cockup "oops"))))
18:19:16 <Gregor> Wow, '(Cockup "oops")'
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18:26:47 <elliott> @tell oerjan Hey, remind me to update that answer again.
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19:06:16 <elliott> I found that a while ago too.
19:06:24 <elliott> It's... not Haskell, though.
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19:06:53 <elliott> Well, it's just plain not. :p
19:07:03 <elliott> It's a restricted language that vaguely resembles Haskell.
19:07:11 <elliott> (Okay, it might be an actual subset.)
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20:25:18 <HackEgo> Ulfalizer: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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21:00:24 <zzo38> What is called if you have a functor which is bijective on objects but not necessarily bijective on morphisms?
21:01:26 <Ngevd> Yeah, definately fred
21:02:42 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
21:03:08 <monqy> elliott: sebi is an infamous startscummer
21:03:29 <monqy> iirc sebi likes startscumming
21:03:29 <elliott> has anyone messaged them "hi"
21:03:40 <elliott> they need to be "hi"d all the same
21:03:45 <monqy> if i see sebi i'll hi them
21:03:51 <monqy> oh sebi's on right now
21:04:23 <elliott> Legendary start scummer who has dethroned Meow in terms of quitting|leaving. Personally responsible for over half of all games ended by leaving the dungeon.
21:04:23 <elliott> Responsible for 7.33% of all online Crawl games.
21:04:24 <elliott> Responsible for 48.56% of all wanderers played online.
21:04:43 <elliott> oh wow they use bigterm too
21:04:48 <elliott> sebi "satan for our times"
21:04:52 <monqy> hugeterm, as they call it
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21:05:09 <monqy> hugeterm has huge in it, rather than big
21:05:20 <elliott> at first i thought that everyone playing crawl must use a big terminal
21:05:25 <Sgeo_> Startscumming occurs in Crawl?
21:05:46 <Sgeo_> How big is the variation in starting equipment?
21:05:46 <monqy> Sgeo_: stats used to be startscummable, wanderers and entry vaults are still startscummable
21:05:51 <elliott> monqy: you can't "hi" this guy properly because he isn't startscumming right now :(
21:06:09 <elliott> (how are stats not startscummable now? not random?)
21:06:37 <monqy> Sgeo_: even the most respectable crawl players will quit on some of the really stupid entry vaults, like there's one that makes you hack through a bunch of plants at the start
21:07:12 <elliott> but berking plants in general
21:07:23 <monqy> Sgeo_: vault is a technical term in crawl
21:07:27 <elliott> monqy: Sgeo_ doesn't play crawl he just
21:07:37 <Sgeo_> elliott, I play Crawl... just not very much
21:07:46 <elliott> i havent seen any evidence yet!!!!
21:07:50 <monqy> and you're bad at it
21:08:02 <Sgeo_> monqy, not denying that
21:08:18 <monqy> sgeo you haven't played online in a year
21:08:20 <elliott> monqy: calling sgeo bad is an insult to my badness
21:08:27 <Sgeo_> monqy, which server?
21:08:29 <elliott> do i get to say that now that i've survived lots of turns
21:08:37 <monqy> your high score was a year ago
21:08:41 <monqy> I forgot i did !hs not !lg
21:08:47 <monqy> elliott: your hs is better than sgeo's hs
21:09:01 <elliott> 22:08 <elliott> !hs elliott
21:09:01 <elliott> 22:08 <Quelles> 92. elliott the Impaler (L15 DsAK), worshipper of Lugonu, blasted by Aizul (poison arrow) on D:17 on 2012-04-26, with 84580 points after 43254 turns and 3:34:58.
21:09:03 <elliott> 22:08 <Quelles> 32. Sgeo the Cutter (L8 SpAs), worshipper of Kikubaaqudgha, shot by a centaur (runed arrow) on D:6 on 2011-03-26, with 1131 points after 8739 turns and 1:24:53.
21:09:08 <elliott> wow sgeo please tell me you haven't taken any advice ever
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21:09:26 <monqy> I think my first encounter with sgeo was helping him with a mfie
21:09:33 <monqy> this was before I joined #esoteric
21:09:39 <elliott> whats mfie im so bad at the shorthands
21:09:45 <monqy> merfolk ice elementalist
21:10:29 <Sgeo_> ...my HS isn't my TrBe?
21:10:43 <Sgeo_> I don't recall playing a SpAs
21:10:48 <elliott> 22:10 <Quelles> 45742. Sebi the Sorcerer (L22 DEWn), worshipper of Sif Muna, shot by a deep elf master archer (arrow of frost) on Elf:5 (elf hall gauntlet narrow) on 2011-01-25, with 345859 points after 132579 turns and 38:02:00.
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21:11:12 <elliott> way more than most ascensions
21:11:13 <monqy> 132579 turns isn't really a lot.
21:11:20 <elliott> i think i saw another digit there
21:11:23 <monqy> it's bad if you're aiming for turncount but
21:11:30 <elliott> missed a digit in ascension turn counts
21:11:39 <monqy> lots of people ascend in that timeframe and i guess it's decent if you don't care about turncount
21:12:21 <elliott> hmm, that means i was like 29% towards ascending
21:12:31 <monqy> what gets you shamed is if your turncount exceeds 200000 (the bots will give you a special pseudotitle "Farming")
21:12:52 <olsner> 132.5k turns is approximately one turn per second average over 38h
21:13:00 <Sgeo_> Is any farming possible in Crawl?
21:13:03 <monqy> most turns take less than a second
21:13:06 <monqy> Sgeo_: there are infinite branches
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21:13:22 <monqy> Sgeo_: and some other ways of farming too, most of which have been tamed a bit
21:13:27 <elliott> oh no not infinite branches
21:13:39 <elliott> my roguelike wouldn't have those
21:13:41 <Sgeo_> elliott, not infinite number of branches. Branches that are infinity size.
21:13:51 <elliott> geometrically it upsets me
21:13:56 <monqy> Sgeo_: also some other ridiculous ways of farming but all of them that i can think of got fixed :(
21:14:03 <elliott> especially if they don't remember so that you can go
21:14:05 <elliott> and see something different
21:14:08 <Sgeo_> elliott, don't ever try the maze in worlds.com
21:14:20 <elliott> im not kidding that makes me really uneasy
21:14:31 <elliott> that's why ADOM made me sad :(
21:14:51 <monqy> Sgeo_: like i made up one where you could get infinite powerful allies by way of polymorphing a powerful unique into a jelly, splitting it, repolying into something cool, and permataming (permataming was removed)
21:14:53 <Sgeo_> I think Worlds is the only 3d space I know of offhand where good nonsensical mazes are possible
21:15:15 <elliott> monqy: it doesn't count until it involves puddings
21:15:15 <zzo38> elliott: Going up and down stairs to see something different is only in the infinite dungeon (and in areas with multiple staircases), in ADOM.
21:15:38 <elliott> monqy: also do you really need the Farmer title punishment; the farming I know is generally considered to constitute its own punishment
21:15:43 <monqy> Sgeo_: and someone else found one where if you took uniques with you out of the abyss so they used it with a unique that stole your items to clone items
21:15:56 <elliott> but i suspect you've heard it
21:16:06 <Sgeo_> "if you took uniques with you out of the abyss" what
21:16:11 <Sgeo_> You forgot part of something
21:16:38 <monqy> put unique in abyss, find unique, find exit, get unique next to you, exit abyss, unique follows you but also stays in abyss
21:16:41 <monqy> but then it was fixed
21:16:50 <elliott> Sgeo_: "The DevTeam has arranged an automatic and savage punishment for pudding farming. It's called pudding farming."
21:17:21 <elliott> actually, it's better with the line before it on the wiki page
21:17:26 <zzo38> I think you shouldn't be allowed to duplicate uniques using any methods whatsoever. They have to make it so that all such things fail regardless of what tries to trigger it
21:17:27 <elliott> "At 16 October 2006, the Shrewd Dude posted a guide, How to Raise the Perfect Pudding. In 13 years, players have invented many strategies for more effective pudding farms, but they have also become bored. Jove stated in reply, "The DevTeam has arranged an automatic and savage punishment for pudding farming. It's called pudding farming.""
21:17:27 <monqy> most farming in crawl is either (a) performed by people who don't know that it's not worth it (b) people who like doing ridiculous farming and exploits
21:17:35 <elliott> "but they have also become bored" :')
21:18:37 <monqy> oh right there was another farming style I co-discovered where for a brief period if you used sticks to snakes and polymorphed the snakes you would get permaallies
21:19:09 <elliott> how do you "co-discover" things like that
21:19:12 <elliott> seems like a one-step process to me
21:20:09 <monqy> I discovered the snakes being nonsummons and someone else went from that and discovered that polymorphing them made them not disappear
21:20:23 <monqy> you could also get food from arrows by killing your snakes
21:21:11 <monqy> I don't think there's any equivalent of pudding farming in crawl
21:21:51 <elliott> but they're using a bigterm :( i don't understand anything any more
21:22:26 <monqy> kilobyte is well-known for hugeterm, hating square los, and being disconnected from reality
21:23:05 <elliott> why would anyone hate squarelos actually i can think of one (1) reason
21:23:43 <elliott> reason 1 out of 1: it's a bit uglier highlighted-squares-wise than a circle
21:24:01 <monqy> lots of squarelos hate is either "aesthetics" or "realism" but imo squarelos is aesthetically better and "realism" doesn't count (alternatively, squarelos is more realistic)
21:24:34 <monqy> i guess there are some gameplay arguments but they're all dumb and squarelos is much better gameplaywise
21:24:47 <elliott> i cant actually tell which is more realistic bceause
21:24:52 <elliott> in the real world people dont have 3d eyes
21:24:55 <elliott> which is more realistic help
21:26:20 <monqy> in crawl the geometry is more chebyshev than euclidean, so if you want a circle it should be a square
21:26:52 <elliott> understand crawl's geometry
21:26:59 <elliott> vagrant has a consistent geometry
21:27:26 <elliott> it's manhattan where you can jump diagonally (because you have diagonal rockets on your shoes)
21:27:41 <elliott> (also so does everyone else)
21:28:00 <elliott> except the diagonal rockets just fly up, and then go <some direction> and <another direction> to end up diagonally
21:28:03 <monqy> like movement and everything uses chebyshev distance but things like los and targeting etc try to be euclidean
21:28:14 <monqy> squarelos is still inconsistent but imo it's a better compromise than the status quo
21:28:35 <monqy> manhattan with diagonal rockets???
21:28:55 <elliott> monqy: i don't quite see how movement could use euclidean
21:28:58 <monqy> so effectively movement uses chebyshev distance but everything else is manhattan?
21:29:06 <monqy> elliott: there have been attempts to emulate it
21:29:15 <monqy> elliott: like making diagonal moves cost more
21:29:30 <monqy> of course that wouldn't actually make it euclidean but
21:29:31 <elliott> since when do diagonals cost more in euclidean space
21:29:42 <monqy> because you're moving more distance
21:29:50 <monqy> since you're on a square grid
21:30:05 <monqy> i really hate the idea of making diagonal moves cost more
21:30:16 <elliott> i don't really understand how that's euclidean at all
21:30:22 <elliott> implying walls around each tile somehow
21:30:23 <monqy> it's pretend-euclidean
21:30:35 <elliott> so you have to go south-west or whatever to go sw
21:30:46 <monqy> 2 turns per diagonal move it
21:30:52 <monqy> i forget the number
21:30:53 <elliott> how does that make it more euclidean at all
21:31:02 <elliott> i seriously don't understand in the slightest
21:32:39 <monqy> because then if you moved the same euclidean distance in any direction the times would be more uniform than with like chebyshevstyle where you can move euclidean distances faster going diagonally
21:33:06 <monqy> oh right there was a ridiculous argument about how moving diagonally is "optimal" and you might as well "rip out" your orthogonal movement keys
21:33:11 <monqy> (by kilobyte iirc)
21:33:58 <monqy> crawl on a hex grid
21:34:07 <monqy> i've never played it
21:34:27 <elliott> is it as amazing as i imagine
21:34:38 <monqy> i think i saw a screenshot of it once
21:34:54 <monqy> if my memory serves me, it was terminalbased with lots of spacing between tiles to get the hex effect
21:35:51 <monqy> http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commits/hexcrawl
21:36:26 <elliott> monqy: ais523 is the reason crawl stuff is on gitorius
21:36:28 <ais523> elliott: what are you sighing at?
21:36:40 <ais523> elliott: you can't possibly dislike it more than I dislike github
21:36:50 <elliott> yes, but i don't care how much you dislike the site crawl's code is on
21:37:34 <monqy> I don't really care about crawl code site oh wait there is something that really bothers me about gitorious but i forget what it is
21:40:01 <zzo38> I will play Dungeons&Dragons game soon I have to best some demon (or maybe they are human; I am unsure); I have some idea, but the floor is not slanted and our party seem not sufficient, and this castle is near nowhere... I do have a few other ideas though
21:40:39 <monqy> you might have to do git submodule update --init i forget if tthat's required for the first time you build it
21:40:56 <ais523> monqy: you do that if you're compiling on Windows or some other system that doesn't have the dependencies
21:41:03 <ais523> it goes and downloads the depenencies for you
21:41:04 <monqy> it's in the guide so
21:41:13 <monqy> (the compile guide)
21:41:22 <elliott> well this is an ancient branch so
21:42:03 <elliott> monqy: what los does hexcrawl have
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21:42:35 <oklopol> "elliott since when do diagonals cost more in euclidean space" ?
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21:42:53 <elliott> oklopol: ask monqy i still don't understand
21:43:35 <monqy> like i think the idea is that say you have a grid like
21:43:41 <monqy> and you're on the bolded dot
21:43:57 <monqy> and you can move up or up-right
21:44:12 <monqy> both of those tiles have a chebyshev distance of 1 from you
21:44:27 <monqy> but the up upright tile has a longer euclidean distance than the up tile does
21:44:33 <oklopol> "monqy I think my first encounter with sgeo was helping him with a mfie" i read "with his wife" and o_O
21:45:23 <monqy> imagine those points form a right triangle
21:45:40 <elliott> i mean, about euclidean distance
21:46:28 <Ngevd> Is the universe euclidean?
21:46:32 <monqy> i think taking longer to diagonal is implemented but you have to enable it explicitly with some odd compiletime flag
22:27:45 <monqy> oops what have i done
22:27:48 <elliott> don't make hi a thing again
22:27:57 <monqy> remember that time when we all changed our names to monqy and said hi
22:27:58 <elliott> you & i were just regular hiing
22:28:05 <elliott> a low point in history for us
22:28:09 <elliott> though we did not realise it at the time
22:28:17 <Ngevd> I will now go away in shame
22:28:21 <elliott> Ngevd: it's ok just realise that monqy is going to take some time to be over the shadow of the hi misuse he has suffered
22:28:26 <elliott> it's not your fault we all suffered
22:33:33 <elliott> ais523: wow, Bob Harper actually codes Haskell?
22:33:46 <ais523> elliott: I've never heard of him
22:33:51 <ais523> so you can go laugh at my ignorance now if you like
22:33:58 <elliott> does http://existentialtype.wordpress.com/ ring a bell?
22:34:07 <elliott> he's a rather famous ML guy
22:34:11 <elliott> who takes potshots at Haskell every now and then
22:34:36 <oklopol> in combinatorics we often consider the angle of observation
22:34:37 <ais523> you can't take good potshots of a language without knowing quite a bit about how to write in it
22:34:42 <elliott> he's pretty much a troll when it comes to haskell in the non-(annoying-4chan-sense)
22:34:51 <ion> http://www.mytrainerbob.com/
22:34:54 <ais523> hmm, I have edited a PHP file before now, but only the HTML bits that were embedded in it, so it doesn't count
22:35:27 <ion> > let parens s = "(" ++ s ++ ")" in fix parens
22:35:28 <lambdabot> "((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((...
22:35:39 <ion> Oh, i accidentally made lambdabot generate lisp.
22:35:54 <elliott> ais523: apparently he's the origin of the "Haskell is my favourite imperative language" thing
22:36:36 <ais523> > let minimum n = "`" ++ n ++ n in fix minimum
22:36:38 <lambdabot> "``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````...
22:37:31 <elliott> really good article on boolean blindness
22:38:20 <oklopol> also damn that mathematician is smug, "i looked a bit more closely than regular people, because i know ergodic theory and advanced applied combinatorics"
22:38:40 <ion> Haskell is my favorite array-oriented data-driven audio/database programming language.
22:38:43 <oklopol> disclaimer: he never actually said that
22:39:00 <elliott> oklopol: sounds like something you would say
22:39:27 <elliott> ais523: you hate booleans, right?
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22:39:39 <ion> data Bool = False | True | FileNotFound
22:39:49 <kmc> https://github.com/search?q=awesome
22:39:53 <ais523> elliott: what makes you think I hate booleans?
22:40:00 <elliott> ion: how many years in the past do you live
22:40:03 <elliott> ais523: all reasonable people do
22:40:16 <elliott> kmc: https://github.com/search?q=epic
22:40:20 <ais523> I think I'm getting trolled, but am not sure how
22:40:29 <elliott> hmm, there's too much phone bullshit there
22:40:34 <elliott> ais523: no, I'm completely sincere
22:40:59 <ais523> what specifically do you mean? you think people shouldn't use them, or you're upset that they exist, or what?
22:41:05 <ais523> ion: VHDL has nine-valued booleans
22:41:11 <ion> elliott: I just came back from fighting the Great War. Why?
22:41:11 <elliott> I think they shouldn't be used 99% of the time they are used
22:41:33 <elliott> and I think they should probably not be in standard libraries
22:41:36 <ais523> elliott: hmm, that's likely true due to Sturgeon's Law, but doesn't it apply to other data types too?
22:41:45 <ion> whit537 / assertEquals (Python)
22:41:47 <ion> An epic testing interface for Python
22:41:53 <ion> “assertEquals” does sound epic.
22:42:27 <kmc> elliott: ;.;
22:42:29 <elliott> isn't that the thing that used to be called "testosterone" but then someone went "ugh" and he changed it
22:42:46 <elliott> if only it was a jQuery library
22:42:59 <elliott> kmc: sounds like your aim is hecked
22:43:06 <kmc> A port of Twython to Server Side Javascript (Node.js). Beautifully fun non-blocking Twitter API calls for epic win.
22:43:14 * kmc murder rampage
22:43:15 <ion> The Great War reminds me, has anyone missed the Salad Fingers series?
22:43:33 <elliott> https://github.com/search?utf8=✓&q=%22epic+win%22&repo=&langOverride=&start_value=1&type=Everything&language= why doesn't this return more results
22:43:35 <elliott> more horrible, horrible results
22:43:59 <elliott> programmers awful, news at 11
22:44:36 <ion> Start from http://www.fat-pie.com/salad.htm
22:45:11 <ion> I’m here to inquire about your spooooooons.
22:45:49 <oklopol> "elliott oklopol: sounds like something you would say" yeah but when i say it it's not quite as smug as when regular people say it.
22:46:10 <elliott> kmc: anyway no github search result can compare to any popular stupid fucking github issue or commit or whatever
22:46:19 <elliott> with all the fucking meme images in the comments
22:46:42 <elliott> HAHAHAHA U POWND THIS EPIC FAIL OF SECURITY BUG [I DON'T ALWAYS HAVE SECURITY BUGS / BUT WHEN I DO THEY'RE FROM PHP!!!]
22:46:58 <kmc> :picard hand on face:
22:47:38 <elliott> HEY GUYS WHEN I PUT COMMENTS HERE DOES IT SHOW IT TO THE TWO PEOPLE ACTUALLY RELEVANT TO THIS BUG OR IS IT JUST TO REDDIT BECAUSE I'M GOING TO TALK PAST THE FORMER
22:47:43 <elliott> ok this is too much cynicism
22:48:34 <kmc> i think software developers cling to this sort of zany internet lolrandom shite because they are afraid of becoming soulless corporate drones
22:48:37 <kmc> and they somehow think this is better
22:48:45 <ion> elliott: I never got to sample the delights of your flavor.
22:49:09 <elliott> kmc: i blame the dot com bubble
22:49:59 <kmc> github founders explicitly acknowledge this
22:49:59 <kmc> http://37signals.blogs.com/products/2008/07/how-github-used.html
22:50:09 <kmc> 'Need to show a "this page is loading" message for background operations? Make it funny. "Forking" (copying) a repository takes a while and our "Hardcore Forking Action" loading screen has become infamous among users. Adding a bit of spice into things that are normally bland, boring, and unexciting goes a long way. You are not Bank of America or any other faceless mega corporation - showing your creative side in unorthodox places is the bes
22:50:15 <kmc> YES HOW CREATIVE
22:50:21 <kmc> HOW UNORTHODOX
22:50:25 <elliott> oh shit let me check my schedule for how much time i have to read some shit the github creators wrote on 37signals' blog
22:50:35 * shubshub is making a new interpreter :D
22:50:50 <elliott> kmc: every time I see "hardcore forking action" after forking something i'm just uuuuuugh
22:50:50 <kmc> you're really "picking a fight" and "getting real" and "insert other cult in-group phrase here"
22:50:51 <nortti> shubshub: in what language?
22:50:57 <elliott> maybe there's a userscript that makes it go away
22:51:09 <ais523> elliott: it shouldn't be hard to write one
22:51:15 <ais523> I'm actually writing a userscript right now
22:51:22 <elliott> ais523: that'd expose me to it more than I otherwise would be
22:51:26 <elliott> so it'd be a net loss for /me/ to write one
22:51:31 -!- kmc has set topic: 37 signals guiltied to a zegnatronic rocket society | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:56:45 <kmc> of course the best is when the soulless corporate entity co-opts that impulse
22:57:06 <kmc> yay google built us a ballpit! they have xkcd painted on the wall! let's work 60 hour weeks!
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23:02:25 <elliott> kmc: you hate booleans right
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23:13:45 <elliott> ais523: do people argue about los in the nethack community
23:16:44 <ais523> elliott: no, because everyone's happy with the way it works already
23:16:49 <ais523> which is both realistic and consistent
23:16:52 <elliott> ais523: nethack uses squarelos right
23:17:10 <ais523> no, it uses unlimited LOS, except for light sources
23:17:21 <ais523> it uses circular LOS for light sources, but that becomes relevant so rarely that people don't care
23:17:39 <monqy> what does it use for determining how light rays bend around stuff
23:18:36 <shubshub> whats wrong with my ruby code it errors out: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=gerWTStE
23:18:52 <ais523> monqy: there are four different algorithms in the source code, with different space/time tradeoffs
23:19:06 <ais523> I'm not sure how any of them work, offhand
23:19:42 <monqy> a lot of different algorithms
23:19:49 <kmc> while github lets you add a fancy bugtracker to your repo, bugs in github itself are reported by using a web form to send an email into the abyss, Web 1.0 style
23:19:51 <monqy> are they equivalent
23:20:20 <kmc> i guess this is the norm for proprietary hosted web apps
23:21:50 <kmc> i reported a bug on google maps several months ago
23:21:52 <ais523> var spans = d.getElementsByTagName('span'); for (var si in spans) { var s = spans[si]; window.alert(s);
23:21:58 <ais523> (followed by more of the loop)
23:22:04 <kmc> i have no way to check its progress or that they even received it
23:22:09 <kmc> other than noting that the bug is still not fixed
23:22:11 <ais523> the alerts I get back from that: three HTMLSpanElements, followed by the literal integer 3
23:22:15 <kmc> bug is "google has the wrong name for my city"
23:22:16 <elliott> kmc: that's not how github issues work...
23:22:25 <elliott> ais523: "for (var" is valid?
23:22:40 <elliott> that si persists after the loop, remember
23:22:42 <ais523> like "for my $x ($y) {" in Perl
23:22:51 <ais523> elliott: it is closed, just later on
23:22:57 <elliott> it's opening the irc channel
23:23:17 <elliott> ais523: for (x in y) is sort of unreliable???
23:23:23 <elliott> it doesn't enumerate an array at all
23:23:28 <elliott> for (i = 0; i < foo.length; i++)
23:23:40 <ais523> oh, right, it might have properties other than elements
23:23:47 <ais523> monqy: it enumerates all properties
23:24:05 <ais523> an array is an object which has just numerical properties, which are its elements
23:25:25 <elliott> an array can have more and still be an array afaik
23:25:43 <ais523> yay my code isn't erroring out no
23:25:48 <ais523> boo it still isn't working
23:26:07 <ais523> actually, the alert didn't get called at all
23:28:41 <monqy> ais523: do you know if facing has ever been done well in a roguelike?
23:29:05 <monqy> since you mentioned your roguelike would have it, iirc
23:29:39 <ais523> monqy: the Mystery Dungeon series uses it, although only to simplify the controls, it has no game effects
23:29:44 <elliott> by "iirc" he means "elliott told me"
23:29:52 <monqy> no I think I read it in a log too
23:30:00 <ais523> wait, no, it has exactly one game effect
23:30:05 <ais523> if you miss an attack you step back
23:30:13 <ais523> with a particular IQ skil
23:30:19 <ais523> in Pokémon Mystery Dungeon
23:30:27 <elliott> more like pacman mystery dungeon
23:30:32 <ais523> and even if you're using an attack-around-you skill, you still have a facing, which is used to work out what direction "back" is
23:31:02 <elliott> ais523: this came up after i came up with the best crawl-with-a-different-geometry derivative ever
23:31:19 <elliott> it's better than hexcrawl, it just came after hexcrawl
23:31:26 <elliott> crawl in full euclidean space
23:31:26 <monqy> the only roguelike I can recall seeing with facing was some stealthbased 7drl but it was really clunky since it took a turn to face so moving around was annoying
23:31:32 <elliott> just rendered onto a discrete grid
23:31:39 <elliott> and you can turn in fine increments and it rotates the game world
23:31:48 <elliott> inconsistent geometry problem: solved
23:31:52 <ais523> monqy: I'd make facing usually free, unless inflicted with a status change that makes it cost turns
23:32:20 <elliott> in eucrawl i'd probably just make h and l rotate and jk step forwards/back
23:32:53 <monqy> wow it'll be hell to move around
23:32:55 <elliott> and facing would be so that turning 360 degrees takes one turn
23:33:14 <elliott> 1/360 except more because i wouldn't let you face in arbitrary degree rotations probably
23:33:36 <elliott> monqy: well i could also make it use the mouse for that
23:33:44 <elliott> and then clicking could fire a projectile weapon
23:33:52 <elliott> quick, what did right-click do in doom?
23:33:56 <elliott> oh and mouse wheel would cycle through weapons
23:34:38 <monqy> I haven;t played doom :( maybe I should
23:35:02 <elliott> monqy: doom is pretty fun but it's also
23:35:09 <ais523> wow it's so long since I wrote JavaScript
23:35:13 <ais523> I keep confusing it with other languages
23:35:14 <monqy> I thought i heard it was easy
23:35:22 <monqy> who should i believe D:
23:35:23 <elliott> monqy: really weird if you've played any more moderner fpses
23:35:29 <ais523> I can't even remember the bits of the API that aren't the DOM
23:35:34 <elliott> there's tiny tiny ledges you just
23:36:16 * ais523 looks up how to tell if a string contains another string, case-insensitively
23:36:33 <ais523> wow MDN is taking a long time to load
23:36:49 <elliott> theyre using serverside firefox
23:36:52 <elliott> dgdfjgdfgkdlghdfklgjfdhgsklgdjkhfgj
23:37:27 <elliott> monqy: hcaey ou played wolfenstein 3d
23:38:03 <ais523> combining indexOf and toLowerCase, I guess
23:38:26 <elliott> this reminds me of that the5k entry
23:38:54 <elliott> which i suspect doesn't work any more
23:39:07 <elliott> indeed not, at least not in safari
23:39:12 <elliott> someone try http://www.wolf5k.com/wolf5k.html in firefox
23:40:25 <oklopol> given that you guys have magical internet powers, i'm being asked what "that one xkcd is where a stick figure is walking out at night and thinking about meeting people there"
23:40:54 <elliott> monqy: help i'm going to implement a euclidean roguelike test thing in like two minutes if you don't stop me
23:41:02 <elliott> also it's going to be in golfed python because that's all i know how to write roguelikes in
23:41:13 <kmc> stick figure walks out at night, lectures a strawman about science
23:41:15 <oklopol> could you link the one she means though?
23:41:20 <kmc> then performs oral sex on a woman
23:41:39 <ais523> does Javascript have a multilevel continue (i.e. continue a loop that's not the top level one)? Or shall I annoy elliott by using a boolean to simulate one?
23:41:54 <elliott> there's no way you can avoid booleans in javascript
23:41:56 <kmc> you should use edwardk's javascript-with-continuations-to-javascript compiler
23:41:59 <elliott> that's one of the many reasons not to use javascript
23:42:15 <ais523> elliott: I'm writing a Greasemonkey script, not like I have much choice
23:42:17 <elliott> you can't totally avoid them in Haskell either, although I do a good job of it
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23:44:28 <elliott> kmc: did you see McBride's new language?
23:44:42 <elliott> https://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/~conor/pub/Frank/test.fk
23:46:21 <monqy> elliott: i cant stop you im have to leave now and also morbidly curious bye have fun
23:46:35 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Sat Apr 28 16:46:34 2012
23:46:41 <monqy> i'll be back sometime
23:48:03 -!- Aardwolf has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:48:42 <itidus20> so, one way of putting it is: chebyshev = largest of |x| and |y|; euclidean = square root of x^2 + y^2
23:50:02 * shubshub is still working on a new interpreter
23:54:02 <itidus20> assuming dx and dy are in {-1,0,1}
23:54:11 <elliott> ais523: anyway, convince me not to imppement that
23:54:45 <elliott> 00:31 <elliott> ais523: this came up after i came up with the best crawl-with-a-different-geometry derivative ever
23:54:45 <elliott> 00:31 <elliott> after hexcrawl
23:54:45 <elliott> 00:31 <elliott> it's better than hexcrawl, it just came after hexcrawl
23:54:51 <elliott> 00:31 <elliott> crawl in full euclidean space
23:54:53 <elliott> 00:31 <monqy> the only roguelike I can recall seeing with facing was some stealthbased 7drl but it was really clunky since it took a turn to face so moving around was annoying
23:54:55 <elliott> 00:31 <elliott> fixed-point
23:54:55 <ais523> have you /seen/ Crawl's codebase?
23:54:57 <elliott> 00:31 <elliott> just rendered onto a discrete grid
23:54:59 <elliott> 00:31 <elliott> and you can turn in fine increments and it rotates the game world
23:55:01 <elliott> 00:31 <elliott> inconsistent geometry problem: solved
23:55:25 <elliott> ais523: well, 00:40 <elliott> monqy: help i'm going to implement a euclidean roguelike test thing in like two minutes if you don't stop me
23:55:31 <elliott> so it wouldn't actually be crawl (im cheating)
23:55:58 <itidus20> forward is phoenix, backwards is tortoise
23:56:18 <elliott> also, I don't even know if Python has fixed-point numbers in its standard library
23:57:15 <elliott> also, ew, the context is global-ish
23:57:19 <elliott> in which it stores the precision
23:58:25 -!- shubshub has quit (Quit: OUCH!!!).
23:58:35 <elliott> ais523: actually, I should really use a full vector image as the space
23:59:02 <elliott> (does discrete euclidean space even make /sense/?)
00:00:07 <itidus20> I'm confused. It seems I was completely right.
00:00:32 <itidus20> except the last business about -1,0,1
00:05:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:07:48 -!- MoALTz has joined.
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00:18:36 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
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01:08:45 <shachaf> kmc: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=iv&src_vid=cJ4W6gh4WCk&annotation_id=annotation_890880&v=dzQ5w8-bVHM
01:25:11 -!- shubshub has joined.
01:27:23 <shubshub> Im Gonna Make A Batch Compiler to Native :)
01:28:06 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
01:28:39 * shubshub is going to make Batch2RubyNative :D
01:33:09 <kmc> What Does That Even Mean
01:33:22 <shubshub> converts batch to ruby then ruby to native exe
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02:13:27 <zzo38> I realized the emerald monster is weak when they are far away from the castle, so we have to lead him away; and I had the idea of anti-magic field too, or if the wizard knows any beholder or anyone who likes to help us too; we found a gnome the wizard knows, but he is too small and is going elsewhere; but we probably can find a scepter of anti-magic since he knows where they are
02:13:57 <zzo38> Do you know how to win at level 40 of Pocket Color Block?
02:14:13 <zzo38> Is speed important in this level?
02:16:13 <zzo38> How many hit-points does this wall have anyways??????
02:30:14 -!- shubshub has joined.
02:31:55 <HackEgo> 2009-12-22.txt:20:58:28: <AnMaster> or will they change format?
02:32:14 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.18999
02:32:34 <elliott> note that pastlog is basically a copy of log
02:32:41 <elliott> so changing log won't help
02:33:14 <ais523> elliott: I was going to make a copy of log that removes nicks
02:33:28 <ais523> they're pretty much equivalent
02:33:31 <ais523> `cp bin/log bin/anonlog
02:33:35 <HackEgo> cp: missing destination file operand after `bin/log bin/anonlog' \ Try `cp --help' for more information.
02:33:45 <ais523> and I probably don't want to copy directly either
02:33:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cmd: not found
02:35:10 <ais523> `run sed '/echo/s/$/ | sed "s=<[^>]*>=="/' < bin/log > bin/anonlog
02:35:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/anonlog: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/anonlog: cannot execute: Permission denied
02:35:29 <ais523> `run chmod a+x bin/anonlog
02:35:38 <HackEgo> 2004-09-30.txt:18:16:29: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion#Esoteric_programming_language_related
02:35:59 <HackEgo> 2009-11-14.txt:00:22:26: So that I won't keep wondering if the Chrome UI is the reason I'm not doing any work for this project, because I'm not used to it
02:36:42 <elliott> first one I have no clue about; second one, maybe me?
02:36:46 <ais523> first one is before I came here, I think, or maybe only just after
02:36:46 <elliott> `log ^2009-11-14.txt:00:22:26:
02:36:51 <elliott> ais523: btw, it has an additional space
02:37:11 <ais523> `run sed 's/>=/> =/' bin/anonlog
02:37:14 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ if [ "$1" ]; then \ grep -P -i -- "$1" ????-??-??.txt | shuf -n 1 \ else \ file=$(shuf -en 1 ????-??-??.txt) \ echo "$file:$(shuf -n 1 $file)" | sed "s=<[^>]*> ==" \ fi \
02:37:23 <ais523> `run sed -i 's/>=/> =/' bin/anonlog
02:37:33 <HackEgo> 2006-02-01.txt:01:42:32: If you divide up the parse tree enough and make liberal use of temporary variables, it shouldn't be such a huge problem.
02:37:36 <elliott> i'm waiting for my original request to come back
02:37:39 <elliott> `log ^2009-11-14.txt:00:22:26:
02:37:50 <ais523> you already got a no output from it
02:37:59 <elliott> also, for 2006 I guess pikhq
02:38:10 <elliott> grep doesn't include the file name
02:38:23 <ais523> right, you wouldn't expect it to
02:38:25 <elliott> ais523: you need to make anonlog give the name more conveniently... make it echo it to solution
02:38:29 <elliott> so you can do `cat solution
02:38:44 <elliott> `pastlog So that I won't keep wondering if the Chrome UI is the reason I'm not doing any work for this project
02:38:52 <HackEgo> 2009-11-14.txt:00:22:26: <Sgeo> So that I won't keep wondering if the Chrome UI is the reason I'm not doing any work for this project, because I'm not used to it
02:38:58 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ monqy \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
02:38:58 <elliott> `pastlog ^18:16:29:.*Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion
02:39:08 <HackEgo> 2004-09-30.txt:18:16:29: <ZeroOne> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion#Esoteric_programming_language_related
02:39:12 <elliott> `pastlog If you divide up the parse tree enough and make liberal use of temporary variables, it shouldn't be such a huge problem
02:39:20 <HackEgo> 2006-02-01.txt:01:42:32: <GregorR> If you divide up the parse tree enough and make liberal use of temporary variables, it shouldn't be such a huge problem.
02:39:26 <elliott> well, I'm terrible at this so far :)
02:39:29 <ais523> neither of us have got any so far :)
02:39:33 <elliott> there's a reason my original game used segments of chat
02:39:35 <HackEgo> 2008-07-30.txt:23:39:47: -!- kar8nga has joined #esoteric.
02:39:54 <HackEgo> 2004-12-16.txt:08:00:00: -!- clog has joined #esoteric.
02:40:03 <elliott> you realise sed can q if the // isn't met, right?
02:40:13 <ais523> we may have to filter out non-privmsgs, but that would be hard
02:40:21 <HackEgo> 2005-01-01.txt:19:31:11: -!- puzlet is now known as puzzlet.
02:40:25 <ais523> because we'd have to find a replacement line instead
02:40:27 <elliott> you have the regexp for it right there
02:40:41 <elliott> you can do it while adding the solution thing ;)
02:40:50 <HackEgo> 2011-11-26.txt:04:32:50: that you don't tell a piece where to move each turn, it does it on its own.. and you just have some limited control .. like maybe allowed to specify movements of n pieces per turn
02:40:58 <ais523> better idea: just filter out names after -!- :)
02:41:14 <ais523> that one's got to be from the portal chess discussions
02:41:20 <ais523> I just can't remember who was doing portal chess
02:41:26 <zzo38> ais523: Use the raw log files
02:41:46 <elliott> `pastlog that you don't tell a piece where to move each turn, it does it on its own
02:41:54 <HackEgo> 2011-11-26.txt:04:32:50: <itidus21> that you don't tell a piece where to move each turn, it does it on its own.. and you just have some limited control .. like maybe allowed to specify movements of n pieces per turn
02:42:03 <ais523> yay, we got that one between us
02:42:15 <elliott> *beheaded me, that's the word
02:42:16 <HackEgo> 2005-04-25.txt:17:02:45: -!- graue has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
02:42:20 <elliott> ais523: stop using anonlog when it's still broken!
02:42:22 <zzo38> Can you acess the raw log files from HackEgo?
02:42:56 <HackEgo> 2007-11-18.txt:04:26:39: not exactly
02:42:59 <ais523> anyway, I'm not particularly inclined to fix it further
02:43:03 <ais523> OK, that's a tough one
02:43:14 <ais523> it could be me, but it probably isn't
02:43:25 <ais523> `log 04:26:39: not exactly
02:43:32 <HackEgo> 2012-04-29.txt:02:43:25: <ais523> `log 04:26:39: not exactly
02:43:37 <ais523> `pastlog 04:26:39: not exactly
02:43:38 <zzo38> You can use the raw log files, and search for lines with PRIVMSG immediately after the sender, and then does not contain a CTRL+A code at the beginning; and then delete everything before the colon (there will also be a colon for the sender, and a colon for the message text)
02:43:55 <zzo38> And also then filter out things with PRIVMSG :`
02:44:03 <zzo38> I mean, PRIVMSG #esoteric :`
02:44:08 <elliott> ais523: it's broken enough that it's painful to use
02:44:17 <elliott> you have to do something much more inconvenient instead
02:44:20 <ais523> I thought the time section would by itself
02:44:25 <ais523> because it's not part of the filename
02:44:25 <elliott> there's a name in the middle!
02:44:31 <ais523> `pastlog 04:26:39:.*not exactly
02:44:38 <ais523> that's why I left the extra space in
02:44:39 <HackEgo> 2007-11-18.txt:04:26:39: <bsmntbombdood> not exactly
02:44:47 <elliott> since when does grep split on spaces?
02:44:50 <HackEgo> 2004-06-17.txt:22:47:19: -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
02:46:52 <ais523> `run sed -i bin/anonlog 's/shuf -n 1 $file/grep "<.*>" $file | shuf -n 1/'
02:46:56 <HackEgo> sed: can't find label for jump to `in/anonlog'
02:47:06 <ais523> `run sed -i 's/shuf -n 1 $file/grep "<.*>" $file | shuf -n 1/' bin/anonlog
02:47:16 <HackEgo> 2011-11-18.txt:23:30:21: `cat bin/welcome2
02:47:33 <ais523> probably elliott, he's most likely to mess with welcome messages
02:47:38 <zzo38> ^< [^:]+:[^ ]+ PRIVMSG #esoteric :(.*)$
02:47:48 <zzo38> Perhaps that is what you want?
02:47:49 <ais523> elliott: I required < and > on a line, by grepping for them before the shuffle
02:47:52 <ais523> much better than using a loop
02:48:21 <elliott> anyway, it really needs to do segments to be playable
02:48:25 <HackEgo> 2008-08-19.txt:16:29:48: the issue was concurrent tracing, where I wanted all IPs to show the next instruction they would execute instead of space/semicolon
02:48:42 <zzo38> ^< [^:]+:[^ ]+ PRIVMSG #esoteric :([^`].*)$
02:48:52 <elliott> `pastlog the issue was concurrent tracing, where I wanted all IPs to show the next instruction they would execute
02:48:59 <HackEgo> 2008-08-19.txt:16:29:48: <Deewiant> the issue was concurrent tracing, where I wanted all IPs to show the next instruction they would execute instead of space/semicolon
02:49:06 <ais523> oh, the other possibility ;)
02:49:09 <elliott> I forgot Deewiant used to use lowercase
02:49:19 <elliott> I thought it was too grammatical/insightful for AnMaster
02:49:25 <HackEgo> 2010-10-30.txt:06:06:28: heh
02:49:36 <ais523> me, most likely, I say that more often than the rest of you
02:49:50 <HackEgo> 2010-10-30.txt:06:06:28: <elliott> heh
02:49:58 <elliott> i win by virtue of cheating by giving three options
02:50:03 <HackEgo> 2003-04-12.txt:13:30:43: :)
02:50:05 <elliott> but for "heh" I think I should be allowed
02:50:18 <HackEgo> grep: unmatched parentheses
02:50:27 <zzo38> Is there a raw log searching file?
02:50:30 <HackEgo> 2003-04-12.txt:13:30:43: <dbc> :)
02:50:59 <HackEgo> 2010-10-25.txt:21:25:17: Anyways. I'm figuring I'll create a new LVM volume to install the Debian root on so if I really do something stupid Gentoo's still *there*.
02:51:06 <pikhq> Yeah, that was me.
02:51:14 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.24233
02:51:18 <ais523> zzo38: look at that file to see how the log retrieval works
02:51:20 <elliott> I'm not even going to check that one, it's completely obvious
02:51:23 <HackEgo> 2005-05-28.txt:18:27:17: I don't mind, but probably the wiki will not be able to cope with that by default, and yes, we should avoid modifications
02:51:45 <ais523> `pastlog I don't mind, but probably the wiki will not be able to cope with that by default
02:51:52 <HackEgo> 2005-05-28.txt:18:27:17: <pgimeno> I don't mind, but probably the wiki will not be able to cope with that by default, and yes, we should avoid modifications
02:51:54 <pikhq> elliott: Hell, no need to check: I definitely did just that around 2010.
02:52:02 <elliott> "but probably the" tipped me off as odd
02:52:12 <elliott> but I couldn't think of a suitable speaker
02:52:21 <ais523> the older ones are harder than the newer ones
02:52:27 <HackEgo> 2011-04-08.txt:14:10:05: what if i copy it to the wrong spot?
02:52:43 <elliott> `pastlog what if i copy it to the wrong spot\?
02:52:48 <pikhq> Seemed a bit zzo38ese-ish.
02:52:50 <HackEgo> 2011-04-08.txt:14:10:05: <cheater99> what if i copy it to the wrong spot?
02:53:03 <HackEgo> 2004-04-26.txt:21:38:40: lament this channel is alive. we are just playing dead.
02:53:15 <ais523> has to be a regular at around 2004
02:53:24 <elliott> `pastlog lament this channel is alive\.
02:53:27 <ais523> that's what I'd have guessed to
02:53:32 <HackEgo> 2004-04-26.txt:21:38:40: <andreou> lament this channel is alive. we are just playing dead.
02:53:35 <ais523> which means it can't possibly be right
02:53:42 <elliott> fucking useless channel founder
02:53:45 <ais523> elliott: banning them won't remove them from the old logs
02:53:54 <ais523> and founders can just unban themselves
02:53:55 <elliott> I'll have to add that to the @ script
02:53:57 <pikhq> Retroactively ban them.
02:54:06 <HackEgo> 2009-11-13.txt:19:24:17: Inheritance is bad, and before you argue against that plz google some bit, especially c2 wiki.
02:54:06 <pikhq> Time machines FTW.
02:54:14 <elliott> I know for a fact that's me
02:54:16 <zzo38> Can you use AWK and/or Perl with it?
02:54:18 <elliott> I hate myself for saying that
02:54:38 <elliott> oh well, let's check JUST IN CASE
02:54:39 <ais523> zzo38: it's HackEgo, it runs arbitrary shell commands that are installed; I expect awk and Perl are both installed
02:54:45 <elliott> `pastlog Inheritance is bad, and before you argue against that plz google some bit, especially c2 wiki
02:54:52 <HackEgo> 2009-11-13.txt:19:24:17: <ehird> Inheritance is bad, and before you argue against that plz google some bit, especially c2 wiki.
02:54:59 <ais523> elliott: you should hate ehird, not yourself
02:55:04 <HackEgo> 2010-02-23.txt:17:06:34: assuming same struct as above that is
02:55:04 <pikhq> Yeah, that jerk, Mr. Hird.
02:55:09 <elliott> ais523: that guy has way too much stack overflow reputation
02:55:13 <elliott> and runs the wiki like an asshole
02:55:27 <ais523> `pastlog assuming same struct as above that is
02:55:36 <ais523> was he Vorpal in 2010? or still AnMaster then?
02:55:36 <HackEgo> 2010-02-23.txt:17:06:34: <AnMaster> assuming same struct as above that is
02:55:46 <HackEgo> 2005-08-20.txt:06:07:06: hi
02:56:06 <HackEgo> 2011-10-08.txt:06:07:06: <elliott> Failed to fetch http://gb.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/g/glib2.0/libglib2.0-0_2.30.0-0ubuntu3_amd64.deb 404 Not Found
02:56:25 <HackEgo> 2005-08-20.txt:06:07:06: <calamari> hi
02:56:33 <elliott> i actually based that guess
02:56:43 <elliott> i knew calamari said hi a lot back then
02:57:26 <ais523> who would say the null string back then?
02:57:40 <elliott> iirc it's actually a log bug
02:57:40 <ais523> it must have been a day where nothing was said
02:57:47 <elliott> ais523: the grep wouldn't match then
02:57:55 <ais523> elliott: so it'd return no data
02:58:04 <elliott> http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2004-09-12.txt
02:59:02 <HackEgo> 2010-06-22.txt:18:44:05: Huh?
02:59:13 <pikhq> Yeah. The capitalization does it.
02:59:14 <ais523> that's pikhq's capitalisation, indeed
02:59:19 <elliott> `pastlog 18:44:05:.*Huh\?$
02:59:35 <HackEgo> 2010-06-22.txt:18:44:05: <Phantom_Hoover> Huh?
02:59:42 <ais523> oh, we were all wrong :)
02:59:56 <zzo38> This doesn't work due to too slow possibly? cat /var/irclogs/_esoteric/????-??-??-raw.txt | awk 'sub(/^<[^:]+:[^ ]+ PRIVMSG #esoteric :/,"")' | shuf -n 1
03:01:35 <pikhq> /dev/null hath spoken.
03:01:35 <HackEgo> 2008-03-13.txt:23:41:25: typesafe unix!
03:01:48 <ais523> that looks like the sort of thing elliott would do
03:01:54 <ais523> not sure if it was him that said it, though
03:01:59 <pikhq> Yeah, I'm guessing elliott but not with high confidence.
03:02:09 <ais523> `pastlog typesafe unix!
03:02:27 <HackEgo> 2008-03-13.txt:23:41:25: <ehird> typesafe unix!
03:02:29 <zzo38> Maybe like this: awk 'sub(/^<[^:]+:[^ ]+ PRIVMSG #esoteric :/,"")' < `ls /var/irclogs/_esoteric/????-??-??-raw.txt | shuf -n1` | shuf -n1
03:02:38 <zzo38> `run awk 'sub(/^<[^:]+:[^ ]+ PRIVMSG #esoteric :/,"")' < `ls /var/irclogs/_esoteric/????-??-??-raw.txt | shuf -n1` | shuf -n1
03:02:53 <elliott> that was obviously me, yes
03:03:32 <zzo38> `run awk 'sub(/^<[^:]+:[^ ]+ PRIVMSG #esoteric :/,"")' < `ls /var/irclogs/_esoteric/????-??-??-raw.txt | shuf -n1` | shuf -n1
03:03:36 <HackEgo> T3h b0rb, t3h b0rk, t3h b0rk, b0rk b0rk!.
03:03:43 <elliott> i don't _want_ to know who said that
03:04:01 <pikhq> I'm going to guess a bot.
03:04:01 <ais523> but I'll find out anyway
03:04:18 <pikhq> (it'll make me happiest)
03:04:46 <elliott> it really needs the date to be a practical game
03:04:52 <ais523> `pastlog T3h b0rb, t3h b0rk, t3h b0rk, b0rk b0rk!
03:04:56 <ais523> I agree it needs the date
03:05:01 <ais523> I'll guess bsmntbombdood
03:05:07 <ais523> although he was mostly a bit classier than that
03:05:11 <HackEgo> 2006-09-05.txt:01:15:42: <Razor-X> T3h b0rb, t3h b0rk, t3h b0rk, b0rk b0rk!
03:05:19 <pikhq> Well *that's* strange.
03:05:21 <ais523> oh good, it's someone I've never heard of
03:05:22 <elliott> razor-x was basically pikhq, right?
03:05:34 <pikhq> elliott: No, though I did rather like her.
03:05:39 <ais523> oh, it's someone I have heard of but can't remember, then
03:05:41 <elliott> right, basically pikhq then
03:05:48 <zzo38> Search the username and hostname too, then
03:05:53 <zzo38> Maybe it gives you a hint
03:06:07 <pikhq> That's often a dead giveaway. :)
03:06:09 <HackEgo> 2009-12-13.txt:12:09:37: definitely kaylee
03:06:16 <pikhq> Definitely kaylee.
03:06:23 <HackEgo> 2005-03-20.txt:06:51:51: so you could write the entire webserver, netowrk layer, etc, in bf, given the appropriate in and out to the card ;)
03:06:26 <ais523> I bet it was actually someone else
03:06:31 <elliott> `pastlog definitely kaylee
03:06:40 <HackEgo> 2009-12-13.txt:12:09:37: <bsmntbombdood> definitely kaylee
03:06:45 <elliott> `pastlog so you could write the entire webserver, netowrk layer, etc, in bf, given the appropriate in and out to the card
03:06:50 <ais523> the attitude fits Sgeo but the actual text doesn't
03:06:53 <HackEgo> 2005-03-20.txt:06:51:51: <calamari> so you could write the entire webserver, netowrk layer, etc, in bf, given the appropriate in and out to the card ;)
03:07:09 <HackEgo> 2012-03-08.txt:01:22:29: !c printf("%d \ ", 03641077);
03:07:18 <zzo38> Use the program I wrote if you like it
03:07:32 <ais523> I often !c random stuff
03:07:40 <ais523> but I don't think I'd have included the backslash
03:07:54 <pikhq> And I'm not liable to !c much.
03:07:56 <ais523> especially with an invalid escape code like that one
03:07:58 <elliott> someone else gets to figure out the regexp for that one
03:08:13 <ais523> `pastlog c printf\("%d \\ ", 03641077\);
03:08:17 <zzo38> Can HackEgo or any other bot make NS INFO requests?
03:08:38 <HackEgo> 2012-03-08.txt:01:22:29: <Friendship> !c printf("%d\n", 03641077);
03:08:42 <ais523> let's go down the simple route
03:08:48 <ais523> elliott: you were mostly right
03:09:05 <elliott> I hear Friendship isn't Gregor but instead Magic.
03:09:10 <HackEgo> 2011-04-12.txt:17:56:11: trust is a powerful thing
03:09:17 <elliott> probably me, god knows why
03:09:30 <ais523> no, I wouldn't word it like that
03:09:43 <elliott> `pastlog trust is a powerful thing$
03:09:50 <HackEgo> 2011-04-12.txt:17:56:11: <oklopol> trust is a powerful thing
03:10:12 <HackEgo> 2010-10-11.txt:05:59:54: also i think i listen to this stuff because of the wrong reasons, because the same people who listen to these sensible ones listen to ones where you repeat the same riff for 5 minutes and the singer has a REALLY COOL GROWL.
03:10:15 <elliott> if it's something cliche, profound, and serious, it's oklopol saying nonsense
03:10:57 <ais523> Gregor: it's new, you should join in
03:11:01 <itidus20> this anonlog thing looks more fun than monopoly
03:11:06 <elliott> `pastlog also i think i listen to this stuff because of the wrong reasons
03:11:08 <HackEgo> 2009-07-27.txt:21:24:32: Actually, if you had a very large number of tiny cells, you could *maybe* get arbitrary push-areas.
03:11:15 <HackEgo> 2010-10-11.txt:05:59:54: <oklopol> also i think i listen to this stuff because of the wrong reasons, because the same people who listen to these sensible ones listen to ones where you repeat the same riff for 5 minutes and the singer has a REALLY COOL GROWL.
03:11:21 <Gregor> Yeah, I was gonna say pikhq for that.
03:11:22 <pikhq> Well, definitely my capitalization.
03:11:22 <elliott> `pastlog Actually, if you had a very large
03:11:29 <HackEgo> 2009-07-27.txt:21:24:32: <pikhq> Actually, if you had a very large number of tiny cells, you could *maybe* get arbitrary push-areas.
03:11:30 <elliott> Gregor: SRY I STOLE UR ANONLOG
03:11:33 <elliott> but it was just too obvious
03:11:33 <pikhq> I don't remember saying that, but 2009 was a long time ago.
03:11:36 <elliott> anything pikhq says is so obviously pikhq
03:11:52 <ais523> let's up the stakes a bit
03:11:53 <HackEgo> 2012-03-25.txt:19:11:06: <Madoka-Kaname> I just had a crazy idea for Brainfuck minimization
03:12:03 <pikhq> elliott: What makes me so obvious?
03:12:06 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.19593
03:12:08 <itidus20> i think madoka-kaname said that
03:12:11 <ais523> I know, and I only updated one
03:12:25 <pikhq> Aside from "I capitalize words and punctuate", as that's pretty obvious.
03:12:34 <elliott> and the tone/sort of structure is unique
03:12:35 -!- MoALTz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:13:03 <Gregor> OK, nobody steal my anonlog. Even though I'll suck at this game.
03:13:07 -!- MoALTz has joined.
03:13:09 <HackEgo> 2006-12-07.txt:00:00:06: hi
03:13:13 <pikhq> Let's go with "the autism" and leave it at that.
03:13:39 * Gregor goes to cry in a corner
03:13:56 <ais523> `run sed -i '/grep -P/s/$/| sed "s=<[^>]*> =="/' bin/anonlog
03:13:57 <HackEgo> 2006-12-07.txt:00:00:06: <SimonRC> hi
03:14:11 <HackEgo> 2010-02-09.txt:19:36:49: cpressey: "interpret the rest of the *code* as brainfuck"? Sure you can
03:14:35 <pikhq> Don't think he was here anymore in 2010.
03:14:49 <ais523> `pastlog cpressey: "interpret the rest of the *code* as brainfuck"
03:14:54 <ais523> but I don't know either!
03:15:03 <ais523> `pastlog cpressey: "interpret the rest of the \*code\* as brainfuck"
03:15:11 <HackEgo> 2010-02-09.txt:19:36:49: <lament> cpressey: "interpret the rest of the *code* as brainfuck"? Sure you can
03:15:25 <coppro> anyone know an easy way to translate address to function (or even better, to function + line number)?
03:15:29 <HackEgo> 2009-02-17.txt:20:21:33: is my header
03:15:30 <elliott> caps after punct but no final punct
03:15:44 <elliott> coppro: you're asking #esoteric, must be really desperate
03:15:53 <ais523> coppro: in gdb, I think you can set a breakpoint at the address, and it'll tell you the function+line it translated into
03:16:07 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
03:16:21 <HackEgo> 2009-02-17.txt:20:21:33: <ehird> is my header
03:16:37 <ais523> you're a good guess for anything recent because you talk so much
03:16:48 <HackEgo> 2010-02-26.txt:19:37:58: Sgeo, befunge and/or erlang
03:17:06 <elliott> `pastlog befunge and/or erlang
03:17:08 <ais523> nickpinging with a comma
03:17:09 <pikhq> coppro: Yeah, probably either the aforementioned gdb trick or implementing it yourself. (as is quite nasty)
03:17:15 <HackEgo> 2010-02-26.txt:19:37:58: <AnMaster> Sgeo, befunge and/or erlang
03:17:17 <elliott> ais523: i said that based entirely on the befunge and/or erlang part
03:17:20 <elliott> anyway, let's lower the stakes instead:
03:17:28 <HackEgo> 2007-07-18.txt:23:24:00: it's more similar to jumpfuck than anything sane
03:17:42 <ais523> hmm, could have been me but I don't think it was
03:18:07 <ais523> `pastlog it's more similar to jumpfuck than anything sane
03:18:09 <elliott> wait, i can delete that from the wiki now... I didn't make JumpFuck, JumpFuck never existed
03:18:12 <elliott> yes it has that capitalisation
03:18:15 <HackEgo> 2007-07-18.txt:23:24:00: <lament> it's more similar to jumpfuck than anything sane
03:18:33 <elliott> who remembers http://esolangs.org/wiki/Jumping_to_-1_is_exciting
03:18:39 <HackEgo> 2008-09-23.txt:20:17:22: Notice: Undefined variable: commenter_portrait_url in user/themes/tusho-blogs-2/post.php line 52
03:19:05 <ais523> OK, that probably wasn't elliott because it looks like the speaker was trying to make fun of him
03:19:14 <elliott> that's not me, that's tusho
03:19:15 <pikhq> What's the tusho->foo mapping, anyways?
03:19:30 <ais523> thus he's two steps removed from elliott
03:19:35 <elliott> `pastlog Undefined variable: commenter_portrait_url
03:19:56 <HackEgo> 2008-09-23.txt:20:17:22: <oerjan> Notice: Undefined variable: commenter_portrait_url in user/themes/tusho-blogs-2/post.php line 52
03:20:11 <ais523> oh right, oerjan is definitely high on the list of people who would want to make fun of past-elliott
03:20:14 <elliott> well, oerjan->tusho->ehird
03:20:16 <elliott> ais523: it's not making fun of!
03:20:23 <elliott> he almost certainly got that line when trying to load a link i gave
03:20:33 <ais523> I think HackEgo said that
03:20:37 <HackEgo> 2007-07-29.txt:01:55:05: /dev/random uses real entropy
03:20:50 <ais523> not me, based on the date and time this time
03:20:55 <ais523> I wouldn't have been awake then
03:21:10 <ais523> my sleep habits have got worse over time :)
03:21:15 <pikhq> Shame that's never a clue about elliott.
03:21:42 <Gregor> Uhhh ... I arbitrarily nominate jix.
03:22:02 <elliott> that ended up sounding memey
03:22:09 <elliott> how can the internet corrupt words as basic as "win", "epic", "fail"
03:22:28 <elliott> `pastlog random uses real entropy
03:22:36 <HackEgo> 2007-07-29.txt:01:55:05: <bsmntbombdood> /dev/random uses real entropy
03:22:46 <elliott> it's always so obvious after-the-fact
03:22:59 <Gregor> I don't think that's so obvious X-D
03:23:08 <HackEgo> 2011-02-02.txt:19:06:51: Also, the whole depiction of the *social* environment that you get in high school on American TV?
03:23:20 <elliott> I TOLD YOU IT'S SO OBVIOUS
03:23:33 <ais523> shall we just ban lines that start with a capital letter?
03:23:35 <pikhq> Okay, yeah, totally obvious.
03:23:46 <Gregor> ais523: But I capitalize too >_>
03:23:50 <elliott> this conversation going on in this SO answer of mine's comments is so absurd
03:23:56 <pikhq> `pastlog Also, the whole depiction of the *social* environment that you get in high school on American TV?
03:24:08 <HackEgo> 2009-04-20.txt:17:13:51: ais523, link or it didn't happen
03:24:09 <elliott> ais523: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10363206/what-does-apostrophe-means-in-haskell/10363228#10363228
03:24:11 <pikhq> `pastlog Also, the whole depiction of the \*social\* environment that you get in high school on American TV?
03:24:19 <HackEgo> 2011-02-02.txt:19:06:51: <pikhq> Also, the whole depiction of the *social* environment that you get in high school on American TV?
03:24:19 <ais523> almost 100% certain on that one
03:24:36 <ais523> `pastlog ais523, link or it didn't happen
03:24:42 <ais523> both the style and the content point to the same person
03:24:42 <pikhq> Hmm. Actually, vaguely remember that conversation; why'd I even bother pastelogging.
03:24:45 <HackEgo> 2009-04-20.txt:17:13:51: <AnMaster> ais523, link or it didn't happen
03:25:09 <Gregor> I've got a way to make it more interesting.
03:25:12 <HackEgo> 2011-07-08.txt:03:16:45: Vorpal: Blargh, fine :P
03:25:32 <elliott> and pikhq probably doesn't use "Blargh"
03:25:37 <Gregor> Smileys are an alternative to punctuation!
03:25:48 <Gregor> `run anonlog | tr [a-z] [A-Z] | sed 's/[^A-Z ]//'
03:25:50 <elliott> Gregor: do you still have that script running
03:25:52 <HackEgo> 011-04-07.TXT:19:10:37: CPRESSEY: PAY UP, OR GET K3 (THE COOL ONE WITH THE GUI THING) FROM A HIDDEN SUBDIRECTORY OF NSL.COM :)
03:25:53 <pikhq> I do, but not often. And I punctuate.
03:26:05 <elliott> `pastlog pay up, or get k3 \(the
03:26:07 <Gregor> I forgot /g on that, whoops.
03:26:12 <HackEgo> 2011-07-08.txt:03:16:45: <elliott> Vorpal: Blargh, fine :P
03:26:13 <HackEgo> 2011-04-07.txt:19:10:37: <elliott> cpressey: Pay up, or get K3 (the cool one with the GUI thing) from a hidden subdirectory of nsl.com :)
03:26:15 <zzo38> Why can't you create empty directories on HackEgo?
03:26:19 <Gregor> Bahaha, it was elliott.
03:26:21 <elliott> Gregor: thx for claiming my line
03:26:52 <Gregor> `run anonlog | tr [a-z] [A-Z] | sed 's/[^A-Z ]//g'
03:26:56 <HackEgo> TXT RIGHT CALL IT WHATEVER YOU WANT
03:27:08 <Gregor> ... maybe I made it too difficult.
03:27:21 <Gregor> `run anonlog | tr [a-z] [A-Z] | sed 's/[^A-Z0-9\.: ]//g'
03:27:24 <HackEgo> 20110727.TXT:03:25:42: WELL IT WAS A JAPANTHEMED ENGLISH CHATROOM
03:27:34 <elliott> `pastlog RIGHT CALL IT WHATEVER YOU WANT
03:27:42 <Gregor> See, now we don't have so many dreary clues.
03:27:43 <elliott> Gregor: CAN'T YOU MAKE IT LOWERCASE INSTEAD I MEAN COME ON
03:27:49 <Gregor> elliott: COBOL LOVES YOU
03:27:51 <ais523> elliott: wow, you've got over 100 days visited in a row for StackOverflow
03:27:54 <elliott> `pastlog TXT.*RIGHT.*CALL IT WHATEVER YOU WANT
03:28:04 <elliott> ais523: I just check the Haskell questions every day
03:28:09 <elliott> you read Esolang recent changes every day,r ight?
03:28:14 <Gregor> elliott: Note that the TXT is from filename.txt ;)
03:28:34 <ais523> elliott: I'm not online every day
03:28:35 <elliott> ais523: also, hmm, I thought that info was private
03:28:43 <Gregor> `run anonlog | tr [A-Z] [a-z] | sed 's/[^a-z0-9\.:\- ]//g'
03:28:43 <ais523> elliott: there's an achivement for it
03:28:45 <HackEgo> hehehe: http://url.ie/1bg.
03:28:46 <ais523> which makes it visible
03:28:47 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 20: Invalid range end
03:29:05 <Gregor> `pastlog right.*call it whatever you want
03:29:07 <elliott> Anyway, that's probably calamari.
03:29:13 <HackEgo> 2009-03-06.txt:15:36:14: <AnMaster> right, call it whatever you want
03:29:24 <HackEgo> 2006-10-27.txt:22:07:24: <SimonRC> hehehe: http://www.miranda.org/~jkominek/rot13/ssh-1.2.27-rot13.patch
03:29:26 <ais523> I have betwen 2^4 and 2^5 days of reading Slashdot in a row
03:29:31 <elliott> Gregor: btw, I dislike your version
03:29:36 <HackEgo> 2010-05-29.txt:19:20:10: Dispace Befunge. Every character has one of two widths.
03:29:43 <ais523> and I achieved that in 2009, haven't beaten it since
03:29:54 <HackEgo> 2012-04-29.txt:03:27:24: <HackEgo> 20110727.TXT:03:25:42: WELL IT WAS A JAPANTHEMED ENGLISH CHATROOM
03:30:15 <zzo38> They work now, the program I have by now
03:30:39 <zzo38> I wanted to make up another program too but only if the bot can access NS INFO request
03:30:43 <elliott> `pastlog well it was a japan.*themed english
03:30:50 <HackEgo> 2011-07-27.txt:03:25:42: <itidus20> well it was a japan-themed english chatroom
03:31:13 <elliott> zzo38: if you can convince another bot to send an ns info request, then you can do that
03:31:29 <pikhq> What's that "Dispace Befunge." nonsense about?
03:31:35 <pikhq> `pastlog Dispace Befunge
03:31:44 <HackEgo> 2010-05-29.txt:19:20:10: <uorygl> Dispace Befunge. Every character has one of two widths.
03:32:14 <pikhq> That was around when I was doing a BF93 interpreter, but I definitely didn't talk about potential variants.
03:32:52 <HackEgo> 2008-06-06.txt:21:13:31: meh, what the heck
03:33:56 <elliott> `pastlog meh, what the heck$
03:34:03 <HackEgo> 2008-06-06.txt:21:13:31: <Hiato> meh, what the heck
03:34:38 <ais523> hmm, I need to get better at Slashdot karma whoring, I think
03:34:44 <ais523> I'm hardly ever voted down, but I'm also rarely voted up
03:34:59 <ais523> probably because I get to stories too late
03:35:37 <HackEgo> 2008-01-31.txt:20:07:11: sooooo
03:37:00 <ais523> bleh, that's got to be enough information, and yet I don't know where it points
03:37:54 <HackEgo> 2008-12-11.txt:22:52:40: <oklokok> but with !^, you can keep state on tos, in some form
03:38:21 <HackEgo> 2011-01-30.txt:18:15:26: "Let's mine right next to a magma flow. That's a good OH GOD WHY IS MY FLESH MELTING! OH, THE MIASMA!"
03:38:51 <ais523> anyone else want to guess before I look it up?
03:39:12 <ais523> `pastlog Let's mine right next to a magma flow. That's a good
03:39:19 <HackEgo> 2011-01-30.txt:18:15:26: <pikhq> "Let's mine right next to a magma flow. That's a good OH GOD WHY IS MY FLESH MELTING! OH, THE MIASMA!"
03:39:29 <elliott> wow i guessed pikhq but i thought
03:39:32 <elliott> since its in quote marks it cant be
03:39:41 <HackEgo> 2011-12-11.txt:01:11:50: <tswett> Soooooooo useful.
03:39:55 <HackEgo> 2006-05-29.txt:02:05:36: <rabidpoobear> !whirl 11110101011100101010101101001
03:39:59 <HackEgo> 2008-01-31.txt:20:07:11: <TheTedd> sooooo
03:40:11 <ais523> two people I've never heard of, or at least can't remember
03:40:30 <HackEgo> 2008-06-03.txt:23:37:29: OKOKOALITY
03:40:34 <HackEgo> 2011-09-25.txt:17:39:22: once they reach Z they should roll back to A but with dinosaurs.
03:40:40 <ais523> I approve of that okoko result
03:41:00 <ais523> who uses lowercase but full stops?
03:41:15 <HackEgo> 2008-06-03.txt:23:38:27: <tusho> OKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOALITY
03:41:24 <ais523> `pastlog roll back to A but with dinosaurs
03:41:32 <HackEgo> 2011-09-25.txt:17:39:22: <CakeProphet> once they reach Z they should roll back to A but with dinosaurs.
03:41:44 <HackEgo> 2008-06-03.txt:23:37:29: <oerjan> OKOKOALITY
03:41:51 <ais523> wow, wrongness everywhere
03:41:58 <ais523> OK, here's a really high-stakes one
03:42:10 <HackEgo> 2010-01-22.txt:16:47:39: `addquote <Sgeo> I'd imagine that it already has, and no one noticed
03:42:27 <ais523> I don't think I'd have added that
03:42:38 <ais523> note: you have to find the quote itself funny for it to be you
03:42:53 <ais523> or you wouldn't have added it
03:46:16 <ais523> <ais523> This is possibly the only Slashdot story where lots of people have decided to link to XKCD, but picked lots of different ones. XKCDs 191 244 384 404 523 563 have all been linked to in this story, which is an unusual amount of variety.
03:49:01 <pikhq> `pastlog `addquote <Sgeo> I'd imagine that it already has, and no one noticed
03:49:10 <HackEgo> 2010-01-22.txt:16:47:39: <oerjan> `addquote <Sgeo> I'd imagine that it already has, and no one noticed
03:50:10 <itidus20> before that he said "<oerjan> that sentence fits _so_ many situations..."
03:52:06 <HackEgo> 2008-12-09.txt:19:04:45: 19:04 lezek: J is not a channel for AI or Mathematic talk :)
03:53:29 -!- Ulfalizer has quit (Quit: leaving).
04:06:26 <zzo38> pikhq: I don't know.
04:07:17 <zzo38> Can they add the command in HackEgo for NS INFO requests or to add to another bot which will accept commands starting with a zero-width-space?
04:13:52 <pikhq> So, I have enough disk space to download Doctor Who in its entirety. Quickly, give me some reason to not download and watch all of it (over the course of a couple years)
04:15:32 <elliott> the reconstructions suck and also i already planned that
04:16:18 <pikhq> Also, the encodes suck and I am *not* doing those myself.
04:16:59 <pikhq> ... Not until I purchase a new, awesome computer, at least.
04:18:36 <kmc> shachaf: ... this video is amusing but I don't understand why it exists
04:33:38 <itidus20> `log [J] is not a channel for AI
04:33:45 <HackEgo> 2012-04-29.txt:03:52:06: <HackEgo> 2008-12-09.txt:19:04:45: 19:04 lezek: J is not a channel for AI or Mathematic talk :)
04:34:01 <itidus20> clearly i am not using this [] thing very well
04:34:19 <itidus20> `pastlog J is not a chanel for AI
04:34:32 <itidus20> `pastlog J is not a chanel for AI
04:34:48 <itidus20> `pastlog J is not a channel for AI
04:34:54 <HackEgo> 2008-12-09.txt:19:04:45: <zuff> 19:04 lezek: J is not a channel for AI or Mathematic talk :)
04:35:10 <shubshub> Made my language page: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Poison
04:38:02 <fungot> shubshub: that was in the crash on the news reports of this song i have my concerns have been
04:38:22 <ais523> shubshub: I'm reasonably sure there's a Ruby variant where you can do hello world just with h()
04:46:54 <HackEgo> 2010-03-15.txt:00:34:18: * oerjan cackles evilly
04:47:34 <itidus20> . o O ( What was he cackling evilly at? )
04:48:45 <shubshub> Also This new lang will have a compiler
04:49:41 <kmc> astounding
04:49:58 <itidus20> "<oerjan> c is not a member of the language /a{2x+3y}b{5y+2z}c{7z+11w}/ <oerjan> because you damn well cannot get 1 = 7z+11w for nonnegative z,w"
04:49:59 <kmc> it reminds me of http://esolangs.org/wiki/HQ9%2B
04:51:22 <shubshub> Im stilll surprised my language actually works
04:52:00 <monqy> any idea who that is
04:52:13 <itidus20> the usual protocol is to just spin again..
04:52:44 <shubshub> Has anyone ever made an OS using an esolang?
04:53:33 <monqy> jeez I can't figure this one out either
04:54:33 <HackEgo> 2006-08-03.txt:19:20:49: Yes it does.
04:55:03 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hiddenlog: not found
04:55:21 <HackEgo> 2005-07-04.txt:19:08:39: plopp
04:55:26 <itidus20> shubshub: the idea of the anonlog game is to guess who said it
04:55:43 <monqy> I'm no good at this anonlog thing
04:55:52 <monqy> I guess I'll hardly ever come up in it either eh
04:55:53 <HackEgo> 2005-11-07.txt:16:09:36: I'm not sure if that is working correctly, though (there seems to be a weird problem with FreeBSD's crypt() call)
04:56:21 <itidus20> but i have not been here long either.. and i haven't paid enough attention to all the individuals here
04:56:43 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: postlog: not found
04:57:05 <HackEgo> 2011-09-05.txt:08:10:19: <CakeProphet> yes it does.
04:57:27 <HackEgo> 2005-03-01.txt:10:51:34: hi
04:57:40 <itidus20> `pastlog 19:20:49*Yes it does.
04:59:55 <monqy> are you any good at `anonlog (im not)
05:00:01 <HackEgo> 2011-08-25.txt:13:45:26: 2268
05:00:08 <monqy> see i have no idea who that is
05:00:29 <monqy> elliott: see, even itidus20 thinks you're good at it :D
05:00:42 <monqy> surely you can crack this mystery
05:01:02 <itidus20> `pastelog even itidus20 thinks
05:01:10 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.15810
05:01:27 <monqy> `pastelog even itidus
05:01:34 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.6678
05:02:06 <monqy> oh no, maybe I have to shake it up before it becomes a "thing"
05:02:26 <elliott> even itidus thinks it's a thing
05:02:33 <monqy> I don't want a world wherein everyone greets with "see, even itidus20"
05:03:11 <monqy> `pastelog see, even
05:03:20 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.4140
05:03:23 <itidus20> do you dare to look at the results
05:04:02 <itidus20> @ 2009-12-17.txt:23:40:12: <fizzie>
05:04:56 <elliott> monqy: the most beautiful thing
05:05:03 <elliott> lived 2008, revived like 2011, killed by ignorance
05:05:18 <elliott> it quoted a random line from the channel logs when you pinged it
05:05:26 <elliott> and set the topic to a random line from the logs every 6 hours
05:05:30 <itidus20> "2009-12-17.txt:23:40:12: <fizzie> There seem to be a metric gazillion of other various cheapo-tripods from a manufacturer called "Velbon". Those at least look a tiny bit less silly. (For example the counterpart to the Slik U2000, the Velbon DF-40/F -- see, even the name is more impressive by far -- costs 4 euros more, but the height range is 0.51-1.45 m. And it's black, not shiny-aluminum. See, these
05:05:30 <itidus20> are the *important* points here; name and colour.)"
05:05:37 <elliott> it was the insipiration for fungot's babble bot
05:05:37 <fungot> elliott: oh rite, shame. can't post url don't know what you think this unfortunate event was " what? both of the funniest snl skits of all the spaces in the crash of an airshow in 1988.
05:06:36 <itidus20> shubshub: you seem to already know something since you know about python and ruby and batch
05:08:42 <HackEgo> 2006-10-03.txt:19:14:09: i think i googled for twnt
05:09:56 <elliott> btw i came back onto this computer just to turn it off & go 2 sleep
05:10:05 <elliott> if im not gone by 6:30 am yell at me, 7 am yell louder
05:10:13 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is 2012-04-29 05:10:12 +0000
05:10:44 <monqy> local time indecision?
05:11:58 <kmc> @time shubshub
05:12:00 <lambdabot> Local time for shubshub is Sun Apr 29 17:11:58 NZST 2012
05:12:21 <itidus20> i didn't know there was a NZST
05:12:33 <kmc> nazi standard time
05:12:45 <kmc> pretty sure that's it
05:12:48 <shubshub> New Zealand Standard time prob
05:13:04 <kmc> itidus20++
05:13:36 <lambdabot> I live on the internet, do you expect me to have a local time?
05:13:52 <fungot> shubshub: every time you comment, especially opera 2" on youtube. your right. for reading this without my permission i will agree with me, what you want to make the actress? halle berry's hot, by ' bug', that's an irrefutable fact.
05:14:08 <kmc> they use NZST at the south pole
05:14:20 <elliott> that was my go-to fact for ages
05:14:24 <elliott> i'm the antarctica expert here
05:14:35 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.220
05:14:48 <zzo38> Why will they use NZST at the south pole?
05:14:48 <HackEgo> 2005-03-25.txt:00:21:17: g'nite
05:14:58 <monqy> only the finest of men have requested @time lambdabot in #esoteric
05:15:01 <elliott> zzo38: iirc, because that's where the flights to the south pole are from
05:15:05 <HackEgo> 2010-05-10.txt:02:41:47: im playing KING again because that one was too difficult
05:15:26 <pikhq> zzo38: The time zone for any Antarctic base is set based on the supplying air field.
05:16:04 <kmc> yeah, the south pole is supplied from McMurdo Station
05:16:13 <pikhq> As generally the meridian's time is fairly meaningless.
05:16:27 <EgoBot> 92 +++++++++++[>+++>+++++++++>+++++++++>+<<<<-]>>-----.>-.++++.<<-.>.>----.++++.<<.>.++++.>.>-. [86]
05:16:33 <zzo38> But, if you build a sundial at the pole, what will you have? Can you put 24 hours based on the hour angle of sun? Can you just use that? (Of course then you still need to know the longitude; just select zero for convenience)
05:16:47 <elliott> you can't usurp my position
05:16:54 <kmc> which is like due south of NZ, and is also part of NZ's antarctica claim (which is not too relevant)
05:17:05 <pikhq> zzo38: You'll have divided the year into 24 hours. :)
05:17:10 <itidus20> I was just about to ask "which station supplies the south pole?" too
05:18:03 <kmc> in fact there is a highway of sorts between them
05:18:04 <zzo38> pikhq: I said the hour angle not the right ascension (which does divide the year into 24 hours; but these "hours" are angle not time)
05:18:04 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMurdo-South_Pole_highway#Major_intersections
05:19:10 <kmc> i don't get it elliott
05:21:18 <kmc> right then
05:23:51 <pikhq> Huh. Claims of territory on Antarctica are permitted iff you are the US or the USSR (or a successor state).
05:24:51 <itidus20> shubshub: technical note here.. iff means "if and only if"
05:25:04 <itidus20> i only learned that in here.. im not sure if you would know
05:25:19 <pikhq> itidus20: Fairly typical math abbreviation.
05:25:50 <elliott> it means "if" pikhq just made a typo
05:25:54 <zzo38> I found a mistake in Astrolog when you flip signs/houses if the houses are going clockwise; it can cause the program to crash.
05:28:03 <zzo38> The solar time is the hour angle opposite of the Sun (this is so that the next day is at midnight instead of noon), but hour angle requires the longitude of the location on the Earth which it is relative to.
05:36:55 <zzo38> I thought of something now: If Agora Nomic was beyond the polar circles, then oerjan would try to make a horoscope using the default settings and fail because Placidus houses cannot be used beyond the polar circles
05:37:03 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is 2012-04-29 05:37:03 +0000
05:37:15 <monqy> does that make it 0630 for you
05:37:19 <monqy> should I be yelling
05:37:34 <elliott> @tell oerjan <zzo38> I thought of something now: If Agora Nomic was beyond the polar circles, then oerjan would try to make a horoscope using the default settings and fail because Placidus houses cannot be used beyond the polar circles
05:37:37 <zzo38> pikhq: Have I divided the year into 24 hours? Due to what I said, I think not. Now do you think?
05:38:47 -!- asiekierka_ has joined.
05:39:11 -!- asiekierka_ has changed nick to asiekierka.
05:40:40 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:40:52 <pikhq> zzo38: I think I was somewhat confused.
05:45:01 <itidus20> ^bf +++++++++++[>+++++<-].+.+.
05:46:11 <fungot> itidus20: wow, looks faithful.
05:46:22 <itidus20> ^bf +++++++++++[>+++++<-]>.+.+.
05:46:36 <itidus20> ^bf +++++++++++++[>+++++<-]>.+.+.
05:52:27 <itidus20> ^bf +++[>++++<-]>+[<+++++>-]<.+.+.
05:55:04 <EgoBot> 39 +++++++++++[>++++++>+>><<<<-]>-.+.+.>-. [30]
05:56:56 <itidus20> i guess im cheating by not including an end of file
05:58:19 <itidus20> ^bf +++++++++++++[>+++++<-]>.+.+.>-.
05:59:05 <itidus20> ^bf +++++++++++[>++++++>+>><<<<-]>-.+.+.>-.
05:59:58 <itidus20> ^bf +++++++++++[>+++>+++++++++>+++++++++>+<<<<-]>>-----.>-.++++.<<-.>.>----.++++.<<.>.++++.>.>-.
06:03:41 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
06:06:51 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
06:28:47 -!- pikhq has joined.
06:31:43 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
06:32:55 <itidus20> ^bf +++++++++++++[>+++++<-]>>+++++[>+++++<-][<.+>-]
06:33:03 <kmc> is there any way to turn a github pull request into a "regular" issue?
06:33:04 <fungot> itidus20: if you want a 100% max payne games maybe 200 times. i've backed everything up with that was clearley a remote controlled) plane and hi was voling douwn a fweuw meeters i was shocked), and it's not
06:33:16 <itidus20> ^bf +++++++++++++[>+++++<-]>>+++++[>+++++<-][<.+>-]
06:44:09 <itidus20> ^bf +++++++++++++[>+++++<-]>>+++++[>+++++<-]<+[<.+>-]
06:52:35 <itidus20> ^bf >+++++++++++++[<+++++>-]>+++++[<+++++>-]<+[<.+>-]
06:52:36 <fungot> ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ
07:00:27 <itidus20> !bf_txtgen ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ
07:00:31 <EgoBot> 107 +++++++++++[>++++++>++++++>+><<<<-]>-.+.>+.<++.+.+.+.>+++++.<++.+.+.+.+.>++++++.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.>-. [936]
07:03:11 <itidus20> ^bf >+++++++++++++[<+++++>-]>+++++[<+++++>-]<+[<.+>-]++++++[>++++++++<-]>--.
07:03:11 <fungot> ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ.
07:03:30 <itidus20> ^bf +++++++++++[>++++++>++++++>+><<<<-]>-.+.>+.<++.+.+.+.>+++++.<++.+.+.+.+.>++++++.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.>-.
07:03:30 <fungot> ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ.
07:07:50 <zzo38> I wanted to make up a vote program on HackEgo but to do so will need NS INFO requests for it to work properly.
07:08:46 <itidus20> since i scrolled the screen with my crap i will repost "<k m c> is there any way to turn a github pull request into a "regular" issue?"
07:13:57 <itidus20> ^bf ,>+++++[<+++++>-]<+[<.+>-]++++++[>++++++++<-]>--.|a
07:14:06 <itidus20> ^bf ,>+++++[<+++++>-]<+[<.+>-]++++++[>++++++++<-]>--.!a
07:15:53 -!- Ngevd has joined.
07:23:40 <itidus20> ^bf ,[>>+++++[<+++++>-]<+[<.+>-]++++++[>++++++++<-]>--.[-]<[-]<,]!Aa
07:23:40 <fungot> ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ.abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz.
07:28:32 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:29:33 <Sgeo_> * shubshub has changed the topic to: The Poison Programming Language Is Developed In Ruby And Is Designed To Make Programming Easier
07:30:14 -!- shubshub has quit (Quit: R.I.P).
07:30:33 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
07:30:57 -!- shubshub has joined.
07:30:59 <Sgeo_> monqy, in eir channel
07:31:26 <monqy> I think I got kicked from there for not having ideas
07:39:56 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
07:42:40 -!- shubshub has quit (Quit: R.I.P).
07:43:48 * pikhq still cannot believe Oracle's litigation against Google.
07:43:59 <pikhq> They are seriously claiming a copyright on APIs.
07:44:26 <pikhq> Which is ballsy, considering their main source of income is an implementation of an API designed by IBM.
07:44:37 -!- shubshub has joined.
07:45:17 <shubshub> Monqy u shud be able to join #PoisonLang now
07:47:19 <kmc> are you 14 years old and have a myspace page
07:47:23 <pikhq> I also wonder if Kernighan could sue Oracle because of K&R.
07:47:35 <monqy> kmc: isn't he 16 or something
07:48:11 <pikhq> monqy: That'd be elliott.
07:48:27 <monqy> lots of people are 16
07:48:32 <kmc> but elliott talks like a grumpy 40 year old
07:48:41 <kmc> this he and i have in common
07:48:44 <monqy> iirc both elliott and shubshub are 16
07:48:46 <kmc> i was 16 years old once
07:48:52 <monqy> do I talk like a grumpy 40 year old
07:49:12 <pikhq> monqy: Hard to say. You should rant more, then we can determine it.
07:50:04 <shachaf> I didn't use to be grumpy.
07:50:16 <shachaf> I must've gotten it from being in the same channel as kmc for too long.
07:50:22 <pikhq> Alas, I have ceased being 16.
07:50:31 <pikhq> I'm a whole 6 years past that: 22.
07:51:29 <kmc> my 'all hackage packages' rss feed keeps telling me about hoauth
07:51:34 -!- Ngevd has left ("Goodbye").
07:51:35 <kmc> that's an unfortunate name for a package
07:52:31 <pikhq> That's quite a set of vowels there.
07:53:14 * kmc is older than shachaf, Ngevd, elliott, shubshub...
07:53:38 <shubshub> kmc r u older than us put together lol
07:53:52 <pikhq> Jesus man, you should get started on your phylactery.
07:54:22 <kmc> i swear to god
07:54:58 <shachaf> Does that mean you broke something or something broke you?
07:56:55 * shubshub shoves a pacifier in shachaf's mouth
07:57:10 <kmc> shubshub: saying 'r' and 'u' makes you sound like an idiot
07:57:21 <kmc> if you would like to not sound like an idiot, i suggest not using these contractions
07:57:25 <kmc> and also learning how capital letters work
07:57:28 <kmc> i'm not trying to be mean
07:57:36 <kmc> this is basic advice for being on the internet
07:57:44 <kmc> it is full of idiots and you are failing to distinguish yourself from them
07:57:45 <shachaf> Some parts of the Internet.
07:57:45 <pikhq> Yeah, he's just informing you of social norms.
07:57:49 <itidus20> ^bf ++++++++++[>++++++>+++<<-]>+++>+++>,[>++++++++++[<---------->-]<++++<<.>>[<.>-]<<.>>,]!hello
07:57:49 <fungot> ?!!!!!!!!??!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?
07:58:03 <kmc> social norms can be cruel and tyrranical
07:58:07 <kmc> but i am pretty ok with this one
07:58:15 <itidus20> it only works for lowercase letters with no punctuation and no mistakes
07:58:17 <pikhq> Oh dear, we might have room for a bot loop.
07:58:55 <itidus20> shubshub: ok change the bit where its got "hello"
07:59:01 <pikhq> shubshub: You know that notting the bool cast operator is equal to the not operator, right?
07:59:05 <itidus20> but it can only be lowercase letters no spaces no punctuation
07:59:44 <shubshub> itidus20 did u make a !!!Batch Interpreter?
08:00:26 <itidus20> ^bf ++++++++++[>++++++>+++<<-]>+++>+++>,[>++++++++++[<---------->-]<++++<<.>>[<.>-]<<.>>,]!textgoesherelikethis
08:00:26 <fungot> ?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!??!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!! ...
08:00:54 <pikhq> shubshub: Seriously man, you sound like this: http://www.somethingawful.com/flash/shmorky/babby.swf
08:01:09 <itidus20> ok that was too much !!!batch for the bot to display
08:01:25 <shubshub> How did you make the interpreter?
08:01:53 <itidus20> it's written in brainfuck.. but it doesn't support spaces or capitals or punctuation
08:02:14 <monqy> no need to make fun of him just because he talks a bit different !! jeez
08:02:24 <shubshub> Ah well the Updated interpreter on the wikipage supports capitals :D
08:03:18 <itidus20> ^bf ++++++++++[>++++++>+++<<-]>+++>+++>,[>++++++++++[<---------->-]<++++<<.>>[<.>-]<<.>>,]!abcde
08:03:18 <fungot> ?!??!!??!!!??!!!!??!!!!!?
08:04:44 <itidus20> hmm.. unfortunately adding spaces would make the interpreter much more complicated
08:05:08 <itidus20> i am not so good in brainfuck either.. this is my most complex program yet
08:05:25 <shubshub> Well Add The interpreter to the wikipage :D also why did u decide to make an interpreter for my
08:05:37 <kmc> i don't know why, but the random caps really bother me
08:05:52 <kmc> i don't generally flip out about grammar and spelling
08:06:11 <kmc> i don't like 'r' and 'u' but that's a much smaller offense
08:06:19 <kmc> shubshub: who are you to tell me to be quiet
08:06:58 <monqy> spelling/grammar quirks don't quite bother me (whereas other things do) oh wait there is one that I do hate
08:07:22 <monqy> have you ever heard of "leet speak" ?
08:08:49 <pikhq> shubshub: random caps Are a bit like 1337 in That they're annnoying
08:09:00 <pikhq> (and good luck guessing *that* on `anonlog)
08:09:07 <itidus20> one d4y your descendants will be playing an0nlog 4nd they w1ll enc0unter this post and curse..
08:09:30 <shubshub> itidus20 why did you choose to make a !!!Batch interpreter?
08:09:31 <kmc> i just like...
08:09:34 <HackEgo> 2008-04-24.txt:18:23:04: because it keeps all settings across a distribution upgrade
08:09:37 <kmc> i don't understand what shubshub thinks the Shift key is for
08:09:46 <kmc> like, why they put that key on the keyboard
08:09:50 <kmc> "press it whenever you feel like it"
08:10:12 <pikhq> That excuses nothing.
08:10:33 <shubshub> and im not using randomm caps atm
08:10:37 <itidus20> shubshub: well i was playing with brainfuck today and making some progress so it just seemed like a thing to do.. and to be honest it isn't really a !!!batch interpreter.....
08:10:39 <HackEgo> 2008-05-05.txt:19:29:40: ehird: temper, temper
08:10:39 <pikhq> Actually, worse, that means the random caps are quite bad, because you have to work for that. :P
08:11:10 <itidus20> it instead translates text into !!!batch
08:11:11 <monqy> I should have been around for longer maybe I'd be able to guess some of these
08:11:13 * pikhq actually uses normal orthography in SMS messaging...
08:11:32 <pikhq> Hmm. That first one, probably elliott.
08:11:38 <pikhq> `pastlog because it keeps all settings across a distribution upgrade
08:11:42 <monqy> "what's sms messaging" - monqy
08:12:14 <itidus20> it's basically the opposite of an interpreter
08:12:15 <pikhq> monqy: "Text messaging". That thing you do with phones that's horribly expensive.
08:12:31 <monqy> yeah I don't do that
08:12:41 <monqy> phones are for people who aren't me
08:12:46 <pikhq> (they charge you money for it but it costs them literally nothing, ergo it's horribly expensive.)
08:12:56 <shubshub> 'pastelog Sorry Its A Force Of Habbit
08:13:18 <monqy> my habits change all the time maybe yours will too :)
08:13:18 <itidus20> oh yeah, phone is that thing i shun and eschew
08:13:20 <shubshub> `pastlog Sorry Its A Force Of Habbit
08:13:41 <HackEgo> 2011-09-09.txt:19:29:59: http://www.ninj4.net/kinetic/ (seems to be a dead link though)
08:13:48 <monqy> itidus20: a good treatment of phone
08:13:50 <pikhq> shubshub: I'm interpreting that as "Sorry, it's a force of hobbit", and now wondering how one has a force of hobbit.
08:14:02 <pikhq> Like, is "hobbit" a new unit?
08:14:20 <itidus20> it's a symptom of living in the same country LOTR was filmed
08:14:21 <pikhq> And if so, what is it? Half a Newton?
08:26:01 <itidus20> so one thing i learned from analyzing bf_txtgen is you can multiply 3 * 5 in brainfuck by having +++[>+++++<-]> where there are 3 +'s and 5 +'s
08:26:35 <shubshub> Nice is that what all that mumbo jumbo was before
08:26:39 <itidus20> so since the ascii value of A is 65 you can get 65 by doing 13 x 5
08:26:43 <pikhq> Yeah, fairly typical Brainfuck idiom.
08:27:01 <pikhq> Now if you want to blow your mind, check out some of the mod 255 variants of Brainfuck constants.
08:27:33 <itidus20> so in that case it's 5 +'s and 13 +'s .. so 5x13=65 .. and 65 = A
08:28:32 <itidus20> it's near the top of the third column
08:29:14 <pikhq> !bf_textgen ユニコードも良い。
08:29:16 <itidus20> Dec for Decimal Hx for Hexadecimal
08:29:46 <pikhq> !bf_txtgen ユニコードも良い。
08:29:50 <itidus20> shubshub: but someone wrote a brainfuck program so you can lookup the numbers.. thats what that ord thing does
08:29:51 <EgoBot> 335 +++++++++++++++[>+++++++++>+++++++++++++++>+++++++++>+++++++++++<<<<-]>>++.<----.>>>+.<<.<.>>++++.<.>---------.>+++++++++++++.<<.>+.>+++++++++.<<.<.++++++.>.>-..<+++++.<.>>>-------------.<<-----.>-.<<-----.>.>-.++.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------. [767]
08:30:05 <pikhq> That's... Some quite impressively bad code there. :)
08:30:26 <pikhq> shachaf: Ought to; bf_txtgen is fairly encoding-naive.
08:30:40 <pikhq> Just generates Brainfuck to output the given octet stream.
08:30:42 <EgoBot> 102 +++++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++>+><<<<-]>++.>+.+++++.---------.----.+++++++++++++++..----.-------.>---. [131]
08:30:57 <shachaf> Oh, I suppose it depends on what your IRC client sent.
08:31:34 <monqy> shachaf are you any good at the anonlog game
08:31:38 <shubshub> Whats the !bf_txtgen coded in?
08:31:46 <pikhq> shubshub: Java, actually.
08:31:56 <monqy> shachaf: can you gues who said that
08:32:11 <pikhq> It's some (naive) evolutionary algorithm that's being ran for a few generations.
08:32:23 <pikhq> I think Gregor's got it set to stop after 400.
08:33:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: anofflog: not found
08:33:26 <HackEgo> 2012-03-28.txt:16:37:26: Video BIOS Shaddow
08:33:50 <HackEgo> 2011-08-19.txt:08:25:57: monqy: Can we all agree on that?
08:34:05 <HackEgo> 2012-02-27.txt:22:33:10: a spammer poem
08:34:32 <HackEgo> 2011-12-26.txt:20:26:46: Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian \ default: --eng-1M \ \ options: \ -h, --help this help text
08:34:49 <HackEgo> 2012-04-27.txt:07:11:00: ill just reprogram my language to Only work if a certain random number is met :D
08:35:17 <shachaf> kmc: Should I feel really annoyed at people who say "install by running curl my.web.site | sh"?
08:35:19 <itidus20> shubshub: ahh.. this room has logs going back years
08:35:37 <shachaf> I guess it's not *fundamentally* worse than giving an installer binary.
08:36:34 <kmc> shachaf: security is such a lost cause...
08:36:44 <itidus20> so.. the ascii code of 0 is 48 as seen with the ord program
08:36:49 <kmc> shachaf: no, I would have never guessed it was you
08:36:54 <kmc> er, shubshub:
08:38:12 <itidus20> ^bf ++++++[<++++++++>-]>.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.
08:38:37 <itidus20> oops got those arrows wrong way around
08:38:53 <itidus20> ^bf ++++++[>++++++++<-]>.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.
08:39:23 <pikhq> shubshub: This channel's been around since, I think, 2003.
08:39:42 <shubshub> itidus20 see if u can make a !!!Batch interpreter
08:39:45 <pikhq> At least, that's when we've first got logs.
08:40:12 <itidus20> shubshub: well.. that requires much more brainfuck skill than what i am doing
08:40:50 <itidus20> depends how much i cheat.. whatever cheating means
08:41:30 <kmc> my brain hurts
08:42:05 <kmc> shubshub: you have apparently discovered my greatest mental weakness
08:42:24 <kmc> random caps
08:42:40 <shubshub> I havent been random capping for ages
08:42:56 <shachaf> kmc: You're still in the channel, so it can't be worse than monad analogies.
08:43:10 <kmc> shachaf: it takes a while for pressure to build up
08:43:25 <itidus20> shubshub: well theres no hard and fast rules, but basically if you're having your code automatically generated i suppose it could be called cheating
08:43:39 <shachaf> shubshub: Can you leave and/or stop randomcapping before kmc explodes? :-(
08:43:57 <shubshub> not really its force of habbit
08:44:10 <kmc> i should just get over it
08:44:35 <itidus20> shubshub: it might help if you could explain the rhyme and reason behind your habit
08:44:45 <itidus20> even if in the process you accidently destroy it
08:45:00 <shachaf> Why was Epsilon afraid of Zeta?
08:46:31 <itidus20> language is a complicated thing.. and on the one hand it is important to know and follow the rules.. it creates order etc.
08:46:51 <shubshub> Im making a new real language using ruby
08:46:59 <itidus20> but on the other hand it's good to not be entirely constrained by the rules.. it aids in flexibility and its a natural process
08:47:09 <itidus20> i mean natural languages like english etc
08:47:30 <itidus20> but.. your english is giving kmc headaches :P
08:47:43 <itidus20> like quite literally he isn't joking
08:48:32 <kmc> i would be much more willing to accept random caps in poetry or some kind of subtle literary prose
08:48:46 <kmc> but i would also expect the capitalization to have meaning or aesthetic importance
08:49:08 <kmc> what drives me nuts about shubshub's random caps is that I reflexively try to find that meaning
08:49:21 <monqy> that is the meaning
08:49:26 <shachaf> You remind me of a high school teacher who said swearing OK iff it was written in a script for a play.
08:49:28 <shubshub> Its because ive been doing it for so long
08:49:31 <monqy> they are artistic in that they drive you nuts
08:49:49 <monqy> I can appreciate this art
08:49:50 <kmc> sure, i've seen plenty of art that exists to annoy the viewer/reader
08:50:01 <kmc> usually i will leave after a few minutes :)
08:50:15 <kmc> i mean we have a word for people who go online and intentionally try to annoy people
08:50:52 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.16040
08:50:55 <monqy> "troll" is megaoverloaded
08:51:06 <monqy> I can't really take it seriously anymore
08:51:22 <kmc> shubshub: how do you decide which words to capitalize
08:51:44 <shachaf> kmc: It's like picking at a scab.
08:51:50 <kmc> shubshub: i do that too
08:51:55 <kmc> shachaf: i do that too
08:52:12 <shachaf> shubshub: Can you leave this channel and/or change this nick so you stop messing up kmc's tab completion?
08:52:12 <monqy> picking scabs is like a pasttime for me
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08:52:29 <shachaf> It was a presenttime for me for a while.
08:52:34 <kmc> perhaps there is a covert process inside shubshub's head and it's leaking information to the outside world through this capitalization side channel
08:52:40 <shachaf> Now it's a pasttime but probably also a futuretime.
08:52:50 <kmc> which of course shubshub would perceive as 'random'
08:52:52 <monqy> shubshub: you can change it to shabshab
08:53:02 <itidus20> kmc: he could indeed create a shibbaleth out of his capitalization
08:53:03 <monqy> shubshub: or shacshac, or shachshach
08:53:14 <shubshub> IM NOT CHANGING MY BLOODY NICKNAME
08:53:22 <kmc> that is a bit much to ask
08:53:28 <kmc> but at least it got rid of the random caps
08:53:56 <pikhq> kmc: Hmm. Perhaps it'd be interesting to attempt to decrypt that signal.
08:53:56 <itidus20> a clan of shubshubs who are innately tuned to their capitalization system
08:54:11 <monqy> shubshub: do you have anger management issues or do just like acting angry when perfectly calm
08:54:20 <monqy> shubshub: I'm not used to you enough to tell
08:55:05 <kmc> i'm going to sleep
08:56:06 <shubshub> I should make more useless languages
08:56:14 <itidus20> "2012-04-27.txt:06:42:36: <shubshub> fizzie: Hows the Numeric Batch Interpreter coming along in Befunge?"
08:56:45 <HackEgo> 2012-04-29.txt:08:56:37: `anonlog <elliotts>
08:57:45 <itidus20> "<shubshub> My New programming Language called MaybeNumericBatch its the Joke Language that only sometimes works hehe :D"
08:58:49 <shubshub> !!!Batch is way more advanced than NumericBatch
08:59:06 <itidus20> "<shubshub> what Makes a Derivitave a Derivitave??"
08:59:33 <shubshub> itidus20 where r u getting these from?
08:59:44 <itidus20> this http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.16040
09:00:11 <itidus20> im looking for patterns in your caps :P
09:00:54 <shubshub> well i dont normally caps 1 letter words
09:01:46 <shubshub> maybe I could develop a shubshubCapsInterpretee
09:03:38 <itidus20> you shouldn't have to give up your caps.. but it's the fact that theres no explanation for them mostly thats driving kmc crazy
09:03:47 <itidus20> like he wants to understand the pattern
09:03:54 <shubshub> Well i dont normallt caps on my phone
09:07:33 <itidus20> like it would be interesting to see if a program could predict which words you would capitalize in a given sentence
09:11:59 -!- nortti has joined.
09:15:54 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: do let pl url yow
09:16:22 -!- nortti has set topic: 12:15 < shubshub> @porn 12:15 < lambdabot> Maybe you meant: join more part | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
09:16:57 <monqy> @ask elliott today shubshub discovered @ping and @porng. im so proud
09:17:08 <monqy> @ask elliott 02:16:22 -!- nortti changed the topic of #esoteric to: 12:15 < shubshub> @porn 12:15 < lambdabot> Maybe you meant: join more part | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/
09:18:17 <itidus20> shubshub: in my humble opinion you should keep using caps as you see fit because theres a meaning to it which shouldn't be ignored
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09:19:46 <itidus20> i believe i might be finding a pattern
09:20:04 <nortti> itidus20: what do you mean?
09:20:19 <nortti> http://img.thedailywtf.com/images/12/q2/err10/pic4.png
09:20:25 <itidus20> nortti: i mean with shubshub's random capitalization
09:21:10 <itidus20> im just taking some time to examine the logs
09:21:13 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
09:21:41 <nortti> is fungot written in befunge98?
09:21:41 <fungot> nortti: i ill be back love the coca cola! i can't take d being blonde and putting pink on her hair i like the whole show has descended into some sort of actual proof.
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09:23:52 <HackEgo> Kray: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
09:24:13 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
09:24:14 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | ¦ `\o/´ | | |
09:24:14 <myndzi> /| /| /'\ | /`\ |\ ´¸¨ | |\ |\ /^\
09:26:32 <nortti> Kray: does myndzi remind you of Phvli
09:26:50 <HackEgo> nortti: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
09:27:06 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
09:27:06 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
09:27:06 <myndzi> >\ /`\ >\ | >\ /< /^\ | >\ |\ /<
09:28:00 <nortti> shubshub: did you find a language to "write esoteric" in?
09:28:55 <shubshub> Might Write an esoteric in Poison once ive finished it :D
09:28:55 <nortti> shubshub: what kind of programming experience you have?
09:29:10 <shubshub> Alot but not with goodlanguages
09:29:19 <Lumpio-> Make an esolang that encodes code in random capitalization
09:29:21 <oklopol> "ais523 who uses lowercase but full stops?" i occasionally do
09:30:41 <nortti> shubshub: how you define goodlanguages? What programming languages you use?
09:30:58 <nortti> shubshub: why did you raise my karma?
09:31:20 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: karma karma+ karma-
09:31:38 <nortti> shubshub: I'd say Python is a good language
09:33:01 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: karma karma+ karma-
09:34:13 <shubshub> maybe ill make an android language next
09:34:49 <monqy> call it shubshub--
09:36:06 <nortti> shubshub: you should try some functional languages like haskell or scheme
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09:37:43 <HackEgo> 509) <Phantom_Hoover> You realise the micromanagement it took to make quintopia encrust my silver throne with emeralds rather than a jug?
09:37:58 <nortti> `quote * shubshub has a fetish :D
09:38:14 <nortti> `run quote '* shubshub has a fetish :D'
09:38:18 <monqy> did you mean `addquote
09:38:26 <nortti> `addquote '* shubshub has a fetish :D'
09:38:29 <HackEgo> 851) '* shubshub has a fetish :D'
09:38:40 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
09:38:49 <HackEgo> *poof* '* shubshub has a fetish :D'
09:38:56 <HackEgo> *poof* '* shubshub has a fetish :D'
09:40:26 <nortti> http://irc.rubbermallet.org:8088/index.htm
09:41:00 <shubshub> what language is HackEgo programmed in?
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09:47:49 <shubshub> @ask elliott What Language is HackEgo Programmed In???
09:50:03 <nortti> '"preemptive real-mode multitasking operating system"...it's simply impossible for a real-mode OS to be preemptive. Preemption requires the use of a hardware MMU, which the 8086 did not have. "Real-mode" is a term used for the legacy 8086-emulation mode which 286+ chips featured where the MMU is disabled. A system can either be preemptive or run in real-mode, not both. Total BS, all of it.' Massive headdesk
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09:56:01 <nortti> and I read that bit of "information" when I was writing a real mode preemptive multitasking os
09:58:40 <shubshub> Impossible nothing is Impossible
09:58:52 <Sgeo_> Pre-emption could be done with just a bit of rewriting of the machine code to be executed, right?
09:59:20 <shubshub> name things that are impossible
10:00:03 <Sgeo_> shubshub, making a turing machine that can take an arbitrary turing-machine as input, and always output whether that turing machine will halt or not. 100% correctness, no failures to answer.
10:01:22 <nortti> Sgeo_: yes. I use IRQ0 (clock) to fire my task switching interrupt which executes PUSHA, switches tasks, executes POPA and returns to that task
10:01:46 <itidus20> Sgeo_: learn you some doing the impossible for great good
10:01:50 <nortti> s/switches tasks/switches stacks/g
10:02:04 <Sgeo_> shubshub, Gravity programs cannot be executed on a turing-machine. And I'm not entirely sure if it can solve the halting problem for turing-machines
10:02:30 <shubshub> English can solve the halting problem!
10:03:04 <itidus20> "This program successfully solves the halting problem."
10:03:19 <itidus20> "This program does something impossible."
10:04:19 <nortti> "This programs completes NP problem in O(1) time"
10:04:30 <Sgeo_> nortti, but you don't even need the clock, do you?
10:05:10 <nortti> Sgeo_: clock is needed for preemtion. Co-operative multitasking can be used without it
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10:05:50 <Sgeo_> nortti, but couldn't a thing that runs before the process or thread take the machine code and convert it so it's sort of forced co-operative multitasking?
10:06:25 <Sgeo_> Would that not count as pre-emptive?
10:07:11 <nortti> Sgeo_: I'd say it is forced co-operation
10:07:56 <shubshub> Someone should make an Operating System using an ESOLANG
10:08:29 <nortti> shubshub: search Esoteric Operating System on wiki
10:10:06 <nortti> shubshub: do you know how hard it can be to write even simple os in protected mode which is required if you want to use more than 1MB of memory
10:10:25 <itidus20> A<-64^0^0 OUT<-A^8^0 OUT<-A^9^0 OUT<-32^0^0 PC<-1^0^0
10:11:23 <Lumpio-> Protected mode is easier than real mode
10:11:44 <Lumpio-> (Unless you want to actually use the protection features, which you don't have to, and real mode doesn't have those either)
10:11:49 <nortti> Lumpio-: have you tried making disk driver
10:12:02 <Lumpio-> nortti: ...that's different.
10:12:58 <nortti> Lumpio-: I just find real mode to be much esier. If I could just get bios interrupts in 16bit protected mode it would be the easies for me
10:16:11 <nortti> shubshub: I corrected easies
10:18:34 <nortti> itidus20: is there any known implementations of VD3?
10:18:59 <itidus20> nortti: i have no idea.. i just decided to write that small program
10:19:32 <nortti> itidus20: I think I have one in my old backups which are on my old computer
10:20:52 <itidus20> my interpretation of basic's: 10 PRINT "HI "; 20 GOTO 10
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10:23:33 <itidus20> but using the fancy features to make the letters more human-readable
10:24:09 <shubshub> Poison Programming Language Is Named After Python Because Python is a Poisonous Snake yet Poison is programmed in Ruby
10:24:13 <nortti> itidus20: I don't understand your message
10:24:44 <itidus20> nortti: I mean, my VD3 program outputs HI HI HI HI HI HI HI HI HI HI HI HI HI HI HI HI HI HI HI HI HI HI HI
10:25:23 <nortti> itidus20: ah. ok. You undestood my explanation written in horrible enklish
10:25:51 <nortti> shubshub: it wasn't a typo
10:26:20 <itidus20> so.. for fun it calculates H = 64 + 8 and I = 64 + 9
10:26:32 <nortti> shubshub: I wrote enklish on purpose. I know it is really english
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10:34:01 <itidus20> double(x)= A<-IN^0^0 B<-A^0^0 A<-A^B^0
10:34:46 <nortti> itidus20: what is that?
10:35:30 <itidus20> hmm i didnt fully think it through
10:36:23 <itidus20> function to double the input: A<-IN^0^0 B<-A^0^0 OUT<-A^B^0
10:47:09 <oklopol> i went to work, and had a normal sunday workday from 1:30 to 12:00, and went shopping for some energy drinks on my way back
10:47:30 <oklopol> when i exited the shop, i felt like chilling for a bit
10:47:41 -!- shubshub has quit (Quit: R.I.P).
10:47:59 <oklopol> and sat down at the exit. i was waiting for a call and my cellphone tends to shut down at random in my pocket, so i put it next to me.
10:48:11 <oklopol> and then i was like hmm these cantor sets resonate in an interesting way.
10:48:26 <oklopol> and i walked home and took a shit and was like wow that's some serious resonance.
10:48:46 <oklopol> and then i figured k i'll call a call. but wait, where the fuck is my phone.
10:49:06 <oklopol> well i figured out the obvious answer in a few minutes, and walked back.
10:49:45 <oklopol> obviously, i am speechless.
10:50:44 <oklopol> i can barely even put into words just how speechless i am.
10:54:14 <oklopol> there were some shifty romanians or something chilling next to me whose moms seem to die every few weeks, so i have a conjecture on the culprits but the phone is worthless and i'm too young to die so i let them keep it.
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11:00:59 <nortti> itidus20: actually you could write double(x)= A<-IN^0^0 OUT<-A^A^0
11:01:14 <oklofok> and now someone is trying to take my internet too, just my luck.
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11:17:16 <nortti> `learn Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
11:17:42 <nortti> (After Kray joined here)
11:34:46 <shachaf> Do I count if I don't live in Finland?
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13:19:17 <nortti> shachaf: are you in finland?
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13:26:46 <Phantom__Hoover> There's something terribly satisfying about a torrent downloading faster than the official download.
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15:17:11 <Phantom__Hoover> OK, looks like that Steam on Linux thing is definitely legit.
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16:52:53 <elliott> 07:47:35: <monqy> kmc: isn't he 16 or something
16:52:53 <elliott> 07:48:11: <pikhq> monqy: That'd be elliott.
16:52:53 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 7 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:53:51 <elliott> 07:53:27: <pikhq> How old are you?
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16:53:56 <elliott> kmc: relax, there's always oerjan to be older than you
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16:57:44 <elliott> 07:58:03: <kmc> social norms can be cruel and tyrranical
16:57:49 <elliott> you misspelled tyrannosaurus
16:58:03 <elliott> 07:58:17: <pikhq> Oh dear, we might have room for a bot loop.
16:58:06 <elliott> pikhq: fungot/lambdabot has been done
16:58:06 <fungot> elliott: i'll just repeat previous text? i'm sure everyone critisising feehilyever can put cod4 engine on this ( left 4 dead, did he put that voice out from :o that's kinda freaky.
16:59:26 <elliott> yes, fungot, you just repeat previous text
16:59:26 <fungot> elliott: not only about the deaths, get a rhino?" too bad the movie
16:59:30 <elliott> usually cut and pasted together
16:59:52 <elliott> 08:05:37: <kmc> i don't know why, but the random caps really bother me
16:59:52 <elliott> 08:05:48: <shubshub> be quiet kmc
16:59:56 <elliott> kmc: srsly just stop talking to him
17:00:17 <elliott> he is clearly not interested in changing anything about his language or behaviour (which basically consists of yelling at people to help him with his latest terrible language)
17:01:00 <elliott> 08:09:34: <HackEgo> 2008-04-24.txt:18:23:04: because it keeps all settings across a distribution upgrade
17:01:05 <elliott> 08:10:39: <HackEgo> 2008-05-05.txt:19:29:40: ehird: temper, temper
17:01:17 <elliott> `pastlog because it keeps all settings
17:01:22 <elliott> `pastlog ehird: temper, temper$
17:01:49 <HackEgo> 2008-05-05.txt:19:29:40: <olsner> ehird: temper, temper
17:01:49 <HackEgo> 2008-04-24.txt:18:23:04: <ais523> because it keeps all settings across a distribution upgrade
17:07:18 <elliott> 08:35:17: <shachaf> kmc: Should I feel really annoyed at people who say "install by running curl my.web.site | sh"?
17:07:24 <elliott> shachaf: That was cool back when _why was the first to do it.
17:07:32 <elliott> But then people started doing it for things that weren't insane. :(
17:08:46 -!- monqy has joined.
17:09:48 <elliott> That was a friendly hello.
17:10:13 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
17:10:45 -!- elliott has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
17:11:34 <elliott> 08:50:55: <monqy> "troll" is megaoverloaded
17:11:34 <elliott> 08:51:06: <monqy> I can't really take it seriously anymore
17:11:40 <elliott> monqy: sounds like ur epicly trolled
17:11:49 <elliott> ur aim is hecked, you have nowhere to go, you die in the rain :(
17:13:55 <monqy> 09:58:40: <shubshub> Impossible nothing is Impossible [...] 09:58:55: <Sgeo_> shubshub, wrong.
17:14:07 <monqy> im rly glad to be alive wait whoops i forgot im not alive im dead
17:14:16 <monqy> being dead is confusing
17:15:01 <elliott> 08:52:12: <shachaf> shubshub: Can you leave this channel and/or change this nick so you stop messing up kmc's tab completion?
17:15:20 <elliott> shachaf: Fun fact: When nobody talked to him for a day, he didn't say anything.
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17:55:34 <Ngevd> Wikisurfing is fun
17:55:46 <Ngevd> Computer Science leads to the Greek Orthodox Religion
17:56:39 <Ngevd> And then to Cybernetics?
17:57:17 <Ngevd> It ends up in a lame 2-loop
17:57:38 <Ngevd> Epistemology <-> James Frederick Ferrier
17:58:33 <Ngevd> Are the authorities on wikisurfing present?
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18:26:26 <zzo38> I do suppose I can do the voting program locally if HackEgo cannot do NS INFO requests; or partially on HackEgo and partially locally so that I would not have to download all of the logs
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18:30:16 <zzo38> Maybe Gregor can answer this question?
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18:48:55 <Taneb> zzo38, are you the ancient wikisurf master?
18:49:07 <zzo38> Taneb: I don't think so; I don't know what that means.
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19:07:09 <elliott> Taneb: why aren't you watching monqy play crawl
19:07:51 <Taneb> BECAUSE NOBODY HAS BEEN NICE ENOUGH TO TELL ME THAT HE IS
19:07:56 <elliott> telnet crawl.develz.org 345, then w and pick squarelos and also make sure your terminal has a black background
19:08:04 <elliott> an experience not to be missed
19:08:33 <elliott> if your terminal has a dark background
19:08:53 <elliott> press space onthe watch menu
19:09:03 <Taneb> Apparently my network is unreachable?
19:09:49 <Taneb> (permission to paste in channel?)
19:09:57 <Taneb> nathan@nathan-laptop:~$ telnet crawk.develz.org 345
19:09:57 <Taneb> Trying 46.4.68.87...
19:09:57 <Taneb> Trying 2a01:4f8:140:3041::1:2...
19:09:57 <Taneb> telnet: Unable to connect to remote host: Network is unreachable
19:10:10 <elliott> read my line again then read your input
19:10:42 <elliott> its ok "typing mistakes" i make them too "it happens"
19:11:09 <Phantom__Hoover> He thought you were talking about Crawk, the parrot-based dungeon crawler.
19:11:25 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: why arent you wtaching too
19:11:35 <elliott> Taneb: the flashing square is monqy btw
19:11:42 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: have you ever seen monqy play crawl ever
19:11:51 <elliott> another thingit is not is understandable
19:12:05 <Taneb> Yay summoning skill
19:12:22 <elliott> are you lagged?? hes fighting grinder now
19:12:32 <Taneb> Nah, just a slow typer
19:12:33 <monqy> thwe bats and rats are friends
19:13:01 <elliott> monqys settings "are weird"
19:13:17 <monqy> they have bright black background
19:13:25 <elliott> iirc bright backgrounds are
19:15:26 <Taneb> Would anyone care if I telnet'd me playing Dwarf Fortress?
19:15:40 <elliott> ill watch that after monqy finishes playing
19:15:47 <elliott> im sure you can understand its just
19:15:53 <elliott> nothing can compete with monqy playing crawl
19:16:16 <elliott> monqy's space bar playing crawl
19:18:21 <elliott> oops youre pooping friends
19:19:30 <elliott> ok after this game im watch Taneb i think
19:19:37 <elliott> you can never tell with squarelos
19:21:15 <Taneb> It's-a me, Ellio (tt)
19:22:43 <Taneb> How do I be telnet-able?
19:24:12 <elliott> Taneb: uhh with df you have to run the special server version which will run in a terminal I guess
19:24:22 <elliott> uhhh maybe the normal df can run in a terminal these days?
19:24:25 <elliott> in which case you can just termcast it
19:25:11 <Phantom__Hoover> <elliott> uhhh maybe the normal df can run in a terminal these days?
19:25:28 <Phantom__Hoover> It theoretically can, by which I mean if you tell it to run in a terminal it segfaults.
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19:26:04 <elliott> Taneb: oh and i bet you won't get
19:26:11 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: tell Taneb how to run it in a terminal
19:26:18 <elliott> if he can get that working then i'll show him how to termcast
19:26:40 <Phantom__Hoover> I think it's the DISPLAY setting in init.txt in data/init.
19:27:03 <Phantom__Hoover> Don't take my word on it, though; if something else looks like a config file, that might be it.
19:27:28 <Phantom__Hoover> You can set that to TEXT and then watch as DF segfaults using only the terminal.
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19:32:18 <Taneb> Well, it can't find libncursesw
19:32:33 <elliott> Taneb: do you have /usr/lib/libncursesw.so
19:32:38 <monqy> should i play again or are we watching taneb now
19:34:40 <Taneb> elliott, it would appear not
19:35:03 <elliott> Taneb: do you have /usr/lib/libncurses.so
19:35:22 <elliott> if yes: sudo ln -s /usr/lib/libncurses{,w}.so (but feel bad about it)
19:35:38 <Phantom__Hoover> Taneb, termcast you trying to get DF to work in text mode.
19:35:51 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, I'm using GUIs?
19:36:03 <elliott> Taneb: did the ln make it work
19:36:22 <Taneb> elliott, I have both, turns out
19:36:39 <elliott> Taneb: vi /usr/lib/libncursesw.so
19:37:08 <Taneb> It has a lot of ^@'s
19:38:02 <elliott> apt-cache search ncurses | grep 32
19:38:06 <elliott> is there a nice convenient 32-bit ncurses package
19:39:07 <Taneb> Installing lib32ncursesw5-dev
19:39:42 <elliott> you don't need the -dev just the
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19:40:01 <Taneb> Some things like -dev?
19:40:53 <elliott> you will want to make your terminal bigger probably
19:41:42 <elliott> you can play once more i think
19:42:05 <elliott> are you sure it's running in a terminal
19:42:23 <elliott> if it's too big it'll be kinda difficult to wtatch
19:42:54 <elliott> echo "hello Taneb PUTAPASSWORDHERE_DONTMAKEITANIMPORTANTONE_MAKEANEWONEUP" >/somewhere/ratry_login
19:43:21 <elliott> make sure you have netcat installed
19:43:36 <elliott> script -f >( cat /path/to/ratry_login - | nc -q5 noway.ratry.ru 31337 > /dev/null ) ./df_linux
19:43:50 <elliott> let me know when you've done that
19:45:32 <Taneb> Script started, file is /dev/fd/63
19:46:23 <monqy> how big is this terminal
19:46:26 <elliott> we really need to know what size taneb's terminal is
19:46:47 <elliott> Taneb: skip the intro dude
19:47:00 <monqy> oh no i was watching the intro instead of crawl
19:47:31 <elliott> is Taneb playing df in 80x24
19:47:38 <elliott> im not sure thats even possible
19:49:07 <elliott> do you not use the find site feature
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19:51:20 <elliott> we're watching taneb play df
19:51:59 <elliott> you'll want a big terminal i think
19:52:16 <monqy> so far 80x24 is working fine for me
19:52:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Well I mean you do have to make your own embark profile.
19:53:25 <elliott> i really don't think it's 80x24 but
19:53:40 <monqy> if it freaks out i'lll resize it
19:53:45 <elliott> monqy: can you see "Name Fortress"
19:53:59 <elliott> i just started a new 80x24 and
19:54:14 <elliott> really gunked up by the logo and stuff
19:54:27 <elliott> im hoping embark will lead to a complete redraw
19:55:17 <monqy> what i see is a bit different
19:55:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: are you watching
19:55:57 <Taneb> Group name suggestions?
19:56:20 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, group name suggestions?
19:57:38 <elliott> doo you usually play df at this low a resolution
19:57:59 <elliott> monqy: i think you'll find its slightly larger than 80x24
19:58:12 <elliott> the border jsut got messed up again for me good god
19:58:46 <elliott> Taneb: just name it anything
19:58:48 <monqy> i did a maximixsed and it looks the same as in my 80x24
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19:59:37 <elliott> oh hi oerjan! i was worried about you
19:59:42 <elliott> since you edited on the wiki
19:59:52 <elliott> monqy: i love how the dorfs are just
20:00:20 <Taneb> Strictly speaking, dwarves are @ signs
20:00:22 <oerjan> 21:59 =lambdabot> elliott said 1d 1h 32m 40s ago: Hey, remind me to update that answer again.
20:00:29 <Taneb> It's fortress members that are :)'s
20:01:04 * oerjan doesn't even recall what the answer is
20:02:27 <elliott> wow the block drawing characters are
20:02:37 <monqy> they odn't look so guly for me
20:02:56 <monqy> maybe it's because im a bad person who uses a bitmap fonte
20:03:31 <monqy> and from the scrreeenshots ive seen block drawing characters are less ugly biptmap fonts and megaugly on nonbiptmap
20:03:32 * oerjan has been archive binging sheldon
20:03:33 <Sgeo_> monqy, Phantom_Hoover elliott Taneb did you see update?
20:04:51 <monqy> i dont know how to do it for xterme
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20:08:16 <elliott> Taneb: im watching & enjoyeying btw
20:10:58 <elliott> monqy: what you really want for df is
20:11:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: how did you get arch working btw
20:11:50 <monqy> maybe i should ifind the font is probably the best for df probably
20:12:01 <monqy> but for now "too lazey"
20:12:04 <elliott> monqy: Phantom_Hoover: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6FXeupOp04
20:12:11 <elliott> something really seemed off about the game but then i realised its because
20:12:15 <elliott> termcast doesnt stream the music too "bad termcast"
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20:21:30 <Sgeo_> elliott, does DF run on Linux now?
20:21:38 <Sgeo_> I vaguely heard something like that
20:21:40 <elliott> df has run on linux since forever
20:21:48 <Sgeo_> elliott, I remember using WINE...
20:21:59 <elliott> well i seem to recall the port used to suck but that's another matter
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20:24:21 <Sgeo_> elliott, is DF a memory hog, or mostly a CPU hog? I'm assuming the latter, and if it's the latter I might be able to run it on this computer without tearing my hair out
20:24:37 <elliott> it's not really an anything hog
20:24:51 <elliott> i ran it on my 1.33 GHz / 4 gig of RAM laptop just fine
20:25:05 <elliott> the OMGE DF USES UP ALL UR RESOURCES is largely overblown, if you have under 100 dorfs oyu'll be fine
20:25:14 <Sgeo_> On this machine, I have 1GB of RAM. I don't know CPU
20:25:23 <Sgeo_> Um, Intel Centrino Duo according to this sticker
20:26:00 <elliott> dwarf therapist works on linux too
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20:27:10 <elliott> happy summer Phantom_Hoover
20:29:35 <elliott> Taneb: whats the fortress called btw
20:29:37 <quintopia> summer glau is kind of funny looking
20:30:25 <Taneb> It's being ran by the Secret Sect of Insects
20:34:32 <elliott> wait there are only two viewers
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20:34:37 <elliott> that means i need to yell at eitehr monqy or Phantom_Hoover
20:36:00 <monqy> i was view for all the time
20:37:53 <elliott> monqy: wow df updates the terminal
20:38:03 <elliott> "would never have flied in the 70s" - elliott
20:38:07 <elliott> oh well im used to the flashing its just
20:38:17 <elliott> wow all these bytes over internet
20:38:31 <elliott> why doesn't termcast broadcast the music
20:38:40 <monqy> such a soothing music
20:39:10 <Taneb> The music makes me fall asleep
20:39:15 <monqy> so what's going on in this fortress thing
20:39:34 <elliott> is Taneb saying he mutes the music that would be
20:39:52 <Taneb> No, but if I suddenly stop doing anything, don't be too worried
20:39:55 <elliott> looks for me http://ompldr.org/vZGthZA
20:40:09 <monqy> wow that block drawing
20:40:17 <elliott> at least its just the outside edges
20:40:21 <elliott> inside the viewport it's fine
20:41:17 <elliott> i forget did monqy ever get around to playing df
20:41:25 <elliott> watching this is kinda weird for me because
20:41:36 <elliott> and with a smaller font than this
20:41:41 <Sgeo_> where are we watching?
20:41:45 <elliott> Sgeo_: telnet termcast.org
20:41:52 <Taneb> So do I, this is pretty weird for me too
20:42:11 <monqy> like i never finsiehd my first fortress
20:42:24 <Sgeo_> Bay12 Games logo is in the middle of stuff
20:42:24 <monqy> i forget where i left it
20:42:31 <elliott> Taneb: i mean you *could* make the terminal bigger but it can already be pretty slow to update when you scroll the screen and that would
20:42:34 <monqy> but it was really slow to start
20:42:36 <elliott> Sgeo_: that happens just wait for a full redraw sometime
20:42:54 <monqy> and i was afraid because i didn't wnat to have to slow start all the time
20:43:11 <elliott> monqy: what i do is play succession fortresses and never go first
20:43:19 <elliott> then you dive right into the fun parts
20:43:45 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1382673/if-we-create-code-which-isnt-elegant-have-we-failed rip
20:43:49 <elliott> nortti: yeah termcast is cool
20:44:00 <elliott> kmc: (am i getting paid a lot for this)
20:44:32 <elliott> nortti: http://mosh.mit.edu/, it's a secure remote terminal with local echo
20:44:40 <elliott> (it says it's a replacement for ssh on the site but that's slightly misleading; it uses ssh for initial authentication)
20:45:01 <elliott> it's based on updating the terminal to the correct state rather than just streaming the vt100 bytes
20:45:07 <elliott> which is ideal for terminal-based games
20:49:56 <elliott> does bad things to termcast
20:52:22 <monqy> i havent' done much jiyva
20:54:52 <Sgeo_> elliott, you can kill Jiyva
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21:10:55 <elliott> i'm not really analysing it much
21:15:34 <Taneb> I'm going to bed at half-past
21:18:09 <itidus20> i can't recall precisely but 11 unaccounted hours
21:18:59 <Taneb> The "Humurous Safetey-Guilds"!?
21:20:12 <elliott> Taneb: i got scared seeing all your @s
21:20:17 <elliott> oh no i bet they're powerful monsters hes going to die
21:20:27 <elliott> monqy: crawl has gone bad things to me :(
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21:32:39 <Taneb> So, I do I stop the broadcast?
21:33:01 <monqy> that or do something with it
21:34:01 <elliott> then open a new terminal and
21:34:36 <elliott> we can see everything you're doing
21:35:23 <Taneb> Me being bored when I still knew some Haskell
21:35:45 <Taneb> I was trying to implement some Prelude functions in Python
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21:36:23 <nortti> elliott: where is haskell.py?
21:45:20 -!- iconmaster has quit (Quit: iconmaster is gone!).
21:46:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Shithead father took power cable to screen away to make me practice flute.
21:46:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Then refused to give power cable back when I had because he "didn't want to have to take power cable away to make me practice flute".
21:47:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:51:33 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Sun Apr 29 14:51:32 2012
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22:08:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey guys, what has a hideous case, a working Arch installation, and is made of concrete?
22:09:53 <shachaf> shubshub has hideous case.
22:10:01 <shachaf> Not sure about the other two.
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22:44:31 <pikhq> " unicode is shit. the only language it can handle well is english.
22:44:31 <pikhq> anyone who advocates unicode obviously has never had to deal with data in multiple languages.
22:44:37 <pikhq> Permission requested to murder.
22:47:13 <nortti> the one who wrote that is insane
22:49:08 <nortti> where is that quote from?
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22:54:49 <nortti> pikhq: where is that quote from
22:58:29 <Madoka-Kaname> pikhq, termination request granted. Use extreme force!
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23:43:34 <HackEgo> 341) <tswett> Grr. Why does it exist? Why can't I kill it?
23:43:35 <Sgeo_> nortti, http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/sy5j0/the_utf8everywhere_manifesto/c4i1ne6
23:43:39 <HackEgo> 90) <fax> oklopol geez what are you doing here <oklokok> ...i don't know :< <oklokok> i actually ate until now, although i guess i also did other things...
23:43:49 <Sgeo_> I have no idea what ObQwe1234 means
23:43:50 <HackEgo> 502) <MDude> Tooth or Bear: Each turn, either take out your own tooth, or wrestle a bear.
23:43:52 <elliott> pikhq: you realise that's a troll post right
23:43:58 <HackEgo> 591) <monqy> one time I tried cpp programming <monqy> it was hellish <monqy> maybe I should try again
23:43:59 <elliott> Sgeo_: ObFoo is usenet for obligatory foo
23:44:09 <HackEgo> 108) * augur rubs alise's bum [...] <augur> what? she said square ped <augur> :|
23:44:10 <Sgeo_> What's Qwe1234 then?
23:44:18 <HackEgo> *poof* * augur rubs alise's bum [...] <augur> what? she said square ped <augur> :|
23:44:21 <elliott> Sgeo_: http://www.reddit.com/user/qwe1234
23:45:06 <Sgeo_> This is a perfectly sensible qwe1234 quote: "calibre is pretty shitty software."
23:45:24 <Sgeo_> At least, due to security incompetence. Although maybe that's more shitty stubborn programmer.
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00:01:57 <nortti> How did I send that message?
00:05:17 <Gregor> I think aufs doesn't respect chroots X_X
00:06:17 <Gregor> Popular unioning FS for Linux.
00:08:08 <nortti> ok. How does a fs not respect chroots?
00:11:29 <Gregor> It's a union filesystem, so it takes directories as its arguments. If you give it these directories while in a chroot, it seems to mount them from the host, not the chroot.
00:14:32 <Gregor> It's not a security issue since only root can mount and root can bypass chroots anyway, it's just obnoxious.
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00:23:45 <zzo38> I can try to make up the vote system from HackEgo, glogbot, and NickServ. I could perform the NS INFO requests locally but use HackEgo to figure out which requests needs to be made
00:25:04 <zzo38> In which you use the command NS SET PROPERTY to make the voting choice and then send a message to glogbot to notify of your vote. Now it is in the raw logs and it can be searched, and then search using NS INFO to verify that you do not vote more than once and that you are not making a someone else fake voting either
00:28:00 <zzo38> Do you expect this to work?
00:28:07 <zzo38> If not, how would it improve?
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00:32:16 <Gregor> Nope, I'm a filthy liar.
00:33:08 <zzo38> What are you lying about now?
00:33:14 <Gregor> <Gregor> I think aufs doesn't respect chroots X_X
00:33:16 <zzo38> Including this question?
00:33:19 <Gregor> I misunderstood its error.
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00:36:57 <zzo38> Gregor: Is it a legitimate use of HackEgo, glogbot, and NickServ?
00:47:22 <Gregor> glogbot should not be involved.
00:47:37 <Gregor> glogbot is purely passive.
00:49:09 <zzo38> Gregor: I know it is purely passive; you do not have to do anything about it. Simply, the program in HackEgo would read the direct raw logs of glogbot to check for a specific message sent to glogbot, and have a local program on my computer then do NS INFO requests for each one to ensure they are unique, ensure the vote is for the correct poll ID, and tabulate the results.
00:51:59 <Gregor> I don't see where glogbot comes into the equation at all, you could just notify HackEgo directly.
00:52:53 <zzo38> Well, yes; I did think of that. But then the files can be modified by anyone so someone could mess it up
00:56:40 <zzo38> (Whether on purpose or not)
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01:25:03 <Sgeo_> WHY WHY WHY IS CHROME BEING SUCH A FUCKASS
01:25:10 <Sgeo_> WHEN IT COMES TO YOUTUBE
01:27:09 <monqy> im chrome and what you said is offensive?
01:30:28 <Sgeo_> YouTube should NOT be crashing the tab like this
01:30:31 <Sgeo_> So fuck you fuck you fuck you
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01:41:39 <Sgeo_> You missed a tirade of swearing
01:41:46 <Sgeo_> At monqy the web browser
01:49:08 <Gregor> elliott: So, I don't need to implement my own union at all.
01:49:12 <Gregor> I have no idea why I thought I had to.
01:49:17 <Gregor> Presumably because I'm an idiot.
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01:49:23 <Gregor> elliott: Linux has per-process mount tables.
01:49:40 <Gregor> So I can use any unioning filesystem, then have a suid-root program allow you to change it.
01:50:11 <Gregor> It has exactly the semantics I was looking for, plus a few niceties.
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01:57:49 <elliott> Gregor: What niceties, out of curiosity?
02:00:32 <Gregor> I can update an active view, and it doesn't involve me implementing a unioning filesystem.
02:02:37 <elliott> Have you read the unionfs/aufs flamewars?
02:03:13 <Gregor> I went with aufs because Debian happens to have it, therefore it's correct.
02:03:29 <Gregor> (I am the best at logic)
02:03:41 <elliott> Pretty sure Debian has unionfs too.
02:05:07 <elliott> It might be built into the kernel by default.
02:05:17 <Gregor> It's not in /proc/filesystems, and it's not a module.
02:05:55 <Gregor> Unless I don't know what the module name is, but I assume it includes "union" in it.
02:06:14 <Gregor> Anyway, at this point I can do things like:
02:06:22 <Gregor> usrview /something/to/stick/in/usr -- ls /usr
02:06:27 <Gregor> And ls will see what I want it to :)
02:07:00 <Gregor> Now I just need the actual package resolution part >_>
02:10:10 <Gregor> In all of Debian, there exists not a single program with the filename "with"
02:10:24 <Gregor> Does that imply that it's actually reasonable for me to name my package requesting program "with"?
02:10:31 <Gregor> Because that ... that is the greatest.
02:13:01 <elliott> I totally already had that idea for cunionfs package thing with.
02:13:08 <elliott> I even gave you examples with that command name!
02:15:50 <shachaf> shubshub is @karma-ing people?
02:16:02 <shachaf> Gregor: HI WHERE'S ROCKETJSQUIRREL
02:16:26 <monqy> shachaf: a bit late to the party, I see
02:16:28 <Gregor> I can't decide, I just can't decide!
02:16:49 <ion> <monqy> @ask el
02:16:51 <ion> liott i taught shubshub how to use @karma-
02:17:08 <shachaf> I don't want to be in the party unless it's a RocketJSquirrel Party. :-(
02:17:30 <shachaf> TWIST: I ACTUALLY DON'T LIKE THE NICK RocketJSquirrel AT ALL. I THINK Gregor IS A MUCH BETTER NICK FOR GREGOR.
02:17:32 <ion> I like it when less inserts newlines in the middle of lines.
02:18:33 <shachaf> monqy: DID YOU SEE THE TWIST
02:18:34 <monqy> shachaf: did shubshub @karma- you
02:18:56 <monqy> he sure @karma-d me!!
02:19:20 <ion> The student attacked the teacher
02:19:56 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Sun Apr 29 19:19:55 2012
02:20:08 <ion> @time elliott
02:20:09 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is 2012-04-30 02:20:08 +0000
02:20:22 <ion> Ooh, more sensible timestamps.
02:21:05 <ion> elliott: What country do you live in?
02:21:24 <shachaf> elliott: What island do you live in?
02:21:35 <ion> elliott: What matrix of solidity do you live in?
02:21:46 <shachaf> elliott: Just a conspiracy of cartographers?
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02:41:41 <Sgeo_> elliott, monqy update
02:41:52 <elliott> monqy keeps updating but he never gets better
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02:45:56 <Sgeo_> Embedded YouTube videos work just fine
02:46:06 <Sgeo_> Which leads to me going to YoutubeRepeat a lot
02:47:45 * kmc /part #haskell-in-depth
02:47:51 <kmc> because nobody has said anything in like 2 weeks
02:47:57 <elliott> people spoke in there 2 weeks ago?
02:57:48 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
02:58:59 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
03:10:09 <zzo38> kmc: I think that channel doesn't work; discuss in here and/or #haskell is what we have to do
03:16:22 <ion> Wow, there’s some horrible English in <http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/spurdo-sp%C3%A4rde>. It’s interesting that words like “ironization” and “variating” don’t even have a basis in Finnish from which the writer might have guessed the English form erroneously.
03:25:22 -!- ellisonch has joined.
03:37:24 <elliott> -- | Method 'mappend' is strict in both arguments (except in the case when the first argument is 'TeXEmpty').
03:37:24 <elliott> instance Monoid LaTeX where
03:37:35 <elliott> This must be some new meaning of the word "strict".
03:41:05 <zzo38> It isn't associative either, unless the datatype LaTeX does not have exposed constructors
03:41:55 <zzo38> Don't you just want a free monoid?
03:43:27 <ion> It isn’t associative?
03:43:35 <ion> Ah, you’re right.
03:46:41 <zzo38> (Of course, out of context, I can't know for sure if you want a free monoid)
03:48:40 <zzo38> I think what they mean here by it being "strict" is that if the first argument is not TeXEmpty, then it has to check whether or not the second argument is TeXEmpty to decide what to do
03:49:32 -!- shubshub has joined.
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03:52:39 <ion> @karma shubshub
03:54:05 -!- cswords has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
03:54:44 <zzo38> Do you know if functor + parametricity + (pure mempty) and (liftA2 mappend) forming a monoid, are sufficient to define the laws of applicative? Are they more or less than sufficient?
03:59:10 <zzo38> Unless you adress lambdabot directly, the "You have" does not make perfect sense since you can get all the messages mixed up of everything together
03:59:44 <Sgeo_> I wonder if newlines could be done... probably not
04:00:41 <zzo38> If newlines could be done with what?
04:02:23 <Sgeo_> zzo38, give newline an amount of karma
04:02:32 <ion> @@ @karma @run putStr "\n"
04:02:46 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at end o...
04:03:03 <zzo38> Sgeo_: Newlines are not permitted in IRC command lines, except at the end, anyways
04:06:57 <zzo38> O, so those kinds of control codes works
04:07:06 <zzo38> @karma <CTCP>ACTION<CTCP>
04:07:06 <lambdabot> <CTCP>ACTION<CTCP> has a karma of 0
04:07:38 <ion> @karma <CTCP>ACTION
04:07:55 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Sun Apr 29 21:07:54 2012
04:08:01 <ion> @time lambdabot
04:08:01 <lambdabot> I live on the internet, do you expect me to have a local time?
04:08:30 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Sun Apr 29 21:08:27 2012
04:08:37 <shachaf> elliott: Can I have a happy 21:07:54?
04:09:23 <lambdabot> Local time for zzo38 is night time
04:09:53 <lambdabot> Local time for zzo38 is dark night time
04:14:33 -!- asiekierka has joined.
04:15:05 <elliott> I love how D has a foreach_reverse keyword.
04:15:11 <elliott> Careful and principled language design, that
04:15:20 <elliott> "It's like foreach... but in reverse."
04:17:34 <Sgeo_> What's wrong with just using some sort of reverse function on the data structure?
04:18:42 <zzo38> I think foreach in reverse can be a useful thing, but I think it ought to be a macro instead of a keyword
04:19:46 <Sgeo_> Why does installing minitube install Phonon
04:20:00 <Sgeo_> Is it going to try to pull in KDE behind my back?
04:20:05 <zzo38> Maybe it is a dependency?
04:22:32 <Sgeo_> Well, except for I don't know how to open YouTube playlists in it
04:25:09 <Sgeo_> There doesn't seem to be a away
04:26:56 -!- elliott has left.
04:28:32 <Sgeo_> I take back everything good I have said about minitube
04:28:51 <zzo38> Do you know how to fix it?
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05:19:46 -!- shubshub has set topic: Poison Programming Language.
05:20:07 <zzo38> Please include log URL as well
05:20:43 -!- Madoka-Kaname has set topic: Poison Programming Language | shubshub can't topics. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
05:21:20 <shubshub> Madoka add the #PoisonLang channnel to it
05:21:37 -!- Madoka-Kaname has set topic: shubshub can't topics. And advertises. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
05:22:23 -!- shubshub has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric For logs.
05:22:56 -!- Madoka-Kaname has set topic: shubshub can't topics. And advertises. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
05:23:17 -!- zzo38 has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
05:23:39 -!- elliott has joined.
05:32:21 <kmc> /topic poison your programming language | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/
05:41:25 -!- asiekierka has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | R.I.P. +t.
05:41:48 <asiekierka> ah, that rare occasion when the channel gains topic awareness
05:42:02 -!- monqy has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
05:42:13 <monqy> "you will be mised"
05:45:11 <zzo38> In my program Prelude.Generalize, I have now added groupBy, null, concat, and (>>==).
05:45:53 <zzo38> groupBy :: (Foldable t, Alternative f, Alternative g) => (a -> a -> Bool) -> t a -> f (g a); null :: Foldable t => t x -> Bool; concat :: (MonadPlus m, Foldable f) => m (f x) -> m x; (>>==) :: (Functor m, MonadPlus m, Foldable f) => m x -> (x -> f y) -> m y;
05:50:21 -!- asiekierka has quit (Quit: Wychodzi).
06:14:14 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Sun Apr 29 23:14:13 2012
06:14:18 <elliott> wow what is it with america
06:14:35 <monqy> i want to be asleep but
06:15:08 <elliott> but some moron keeps talking to you about roguelike design, yeah funny coincidence that's happening to me too
06:15:35 <shachaf> elliott: You know that game where you misspell words by adding 'e' to the end of them?
06:15:41 <monqy> this homework it's really boring i haven't done any and it's due tomorrow
06:15:48 <monqy> shachaf: i love that game
06:15:51 <elliott> shachaf: it's not a game you make everything monqy does a game!!
06:16:12 <monqy> itt monqy calls everything a game
06:16:13 <shachaf> monqy: The best way to do really boring homework is to be on IRC a lot.
06:16:20 <shachaf> Eventually it gets done all by itself.
06:16:28 <monqy> i'm just waiting for that to happen
06:16:42 <shachaf> If it doesn't happen then you can sue IRC.
06:16:55 <shachaf> And make a zillion dollars.
06:19:16 -!- shubshub has quit (Quit: R.I.P).
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06:52:46 <shachaf> Sgeo: Can you please take me off the hi list?
06:53:31 <Sgeo> You are not on the hi list. You are on the accidental tab complete list.
06:53:36 <Sgeo> I will not remove you from this list.
07:00:20 <ion> shachaf: hi
07:00:24 <olsner> (I put you on the hi list)
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07:09:27 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: addhilist: not found
07:10:36 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: celebrat: not found
07:10:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: celebrate: not found
07:10:57 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
07:10:58 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
07:10:58 <myndzi> /´\ |\ /< | >\ /| >\ | |\ /| >\
07:11:19 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
07:12:07 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: def: not found
07:12:20 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
07:12:32 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
07:13:14 <HackEgo> bash: echohi: command not found
07:13:42 <elliott> please stop spamming the bots.
07:14:10 <elliott> if you don't, you'll just get put on their ignore lists.
07:18:13 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:27:40 <shachaf> Sgeo: Can you please take me off the hi list?
07:29:17 * pikhq_ has finally seen Planet of the Apes...
07:34:40 <pikhq_> That... Was a very good film.
07:35:36 -!- Taneb has joined.
07:36:40 <Taneb> That's mean of you!
07:40:54 <Sgeo> Taneb, feel better soon
07:41:18 <pikhq_> quintopia: Yeah, it was the '68 film.
07:49:19 <pikhq_> Apparently the '01 film was not as well received, so... Easy inference there.
07:51:14 <Taneb> I think I have a half-designed language that is Turing-complete iff the Collatz conjecture is false
07:51:31 -!- japh has joined.
07:52:10 <HackEgo> japh: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
07:52:26 <japh> i wrote an emulator and an assembler for some dude's mineraft cpu that he hasn't built yet
07:53:06 <japh> http://wyld.servegame.com/tylercpu/
07:53:33 <Taneb> Not especially esoteric
07:53:39 <Taneb> Have you seen 0x10c?
07:53:44 <Taneb> New game Notch is making
07:53:54 <japh> i'm on a team implementing dcpu16 in minecraft
07:54:16 <pikhq_> japh: Vanilla, or RedPower?
07:54:19 <Taneb> I tried to do that, didn't get very far
07:54:41 <pikhq_> Aaaah. Was about to say "that's going to take a while", but you already know *that*. :)
07:54:42 <japh> approximatly 1.5 millionths the speed of 0x10c's
07:54:56 <japh> so we won't be playing pacman
07:56:00 <japh> i can't find any high level languages for dcpu except one c-like compiler
07:56:11 <pikhq_> Not that anyone would (reasonably) expect better out of vanilla Minecraft.
07:56:26 <japh> rdf is not reasonable
07:56:42 <pikhq_> No, but they're reasonable to know that you're bound by tick rate.
07:56:47 <pikhq_> Erm, reasonable enough
07:56:55 <japh> anniversary project is full color tetris, active build
07:57:12 <japh> <- wyldstallyns
07:57:39 <japh> has brainfuck gone out of style?
07:57:46 <japh> what's the hot paradigm with the kids these days
07:57:59 <pikhq_> japh: Don't think so; it remains the most popular esolang by far.
07:58:11 <pikhq_> Perhaps not the classiest, but still.
07:58:12 <japh> no one has done brainfuck in minecraft
07:58:22 <japh> my next goal manifests
07:58:29 <pikhq_> Well, no. Brainfuck CPUs are a bit hairy, I'm told.
07:58:37 <shubshub> Japh its impossible to use programming languages in minecraft
07:58:42 <pikhq_> You'd probably do better to get a CPU running Forth.
07:58:52 <japh> i just wrote an assembler for an mc cpu
07:58:56 <pikhq_> Which, actually, you've probably almost done.
07:59:03 <japh> tyler569's custom architecture on the rdf build server
07:59:10 <japh> brainfuck is trivial
07:59:13 <japh> i wrote weave.rb
07:59:23 <pikhq_> japh: I'm meaning "a CPU that executes Brainfuck directly".
07:59:36 <japh> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:JayCampbell/weave.rb
07:59:41 <pikhq_> *Obviously* running Brainfuck on a CPU in general is doable.
07:59:48 <pikhq_> (and kinda funny in Minecraft.)
08:00:14 <japh> i had ideas around doing bf using those funky piston snakes that appear to be moving by themselves
08:00:25 <shubshub> Im Making A Programming Language In Ruby
08:00:55 <japh> i made that in like 1924
08:01:19 <japh> shub is it on esolang?
08:01:55 <pikhq_> I'm not sure shubshub knows what he's doing, TBH...
08:02:35 <japh> o i see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Poison
08:02:37 <ion> I’m sure he knows *exactly* what he’s doing.
08:02:50 <japh> aggressive use of capitalization for great justice
08:03:05 <ion> Our reactions are precisely what he does it for.
08:03:14 <Taneb> Is there any need for an esolang that is Turing-Complete iff the Collatz conjecture is false?
08:03:28 <Taneb> Because if there is, I'm making one
08:03:47 <pikhq_> ion: Alas, it is far too effective.
08:03:58 <pikhq_> ion: I may wish to /ignore him so I don't react.
08:04:12 <japh> i'm convinced minercraft exists so we can rebuild the internet from scratch after The Big One
08:04:19 <ion> But i certainly admit he’s more entertaining than most trolls.
08:04:50 <pikhq_> That much is true. Only way he could be (significantly) more entertaining is if he was talking about esotericism.
08:05:04 <japh> what does collatz have to do with wait is that the troll?
08:05:18 <pikhq_> japh: No, that'd be shubshub.
08:06:03 <japh> meteor, atmospheric nuke, sunspots, pick one
08:06:22 <shubshub> Thats not going to wipe the internet out...
08:06:33 <japh> or maybe your mother
08:07:06 -!- shubshub has quit (Quit: japh).
08:07:21 -!- shubshub has joined.
08:07:47 -!- shubshub has quit (Client Quit).
08:07:57 <japh> the problem with minecraft CPU's is
08:08:10 <japh> nobody run anything beyond fibonacci sequence
08:08:32 <japh> i know of 50+ cpu's that never actually run
08:08:48 <pikhq_> Well, there's not much interest in them.
08:09:06 <pikhq_> Really, the fun is in building them.
08:09:32 <pikhq_> If you're using it for real, you're an idiot who thinks fractional hertz are speedy. :P
08:09:56 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
08:09:59 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
08:10:01 <pikhq_> Well, there's the other two bots.
08:10:22 <Taneb> Pietbot's in hospital
08:10:28 <pikhq_> Gregor: Just FYI, Ego's not in.
08:10:37 <HackEgo> alternatives \ java-6-openjdk
08:12:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ifconfig: not found
08:12:54 <japh> `/sbin/ifconfig
08:12:56 <HackEgo> lo Link encap:Local Loopback \ inet addr:127.0.0.1 Mask:255.0.0.0 \ inet6 addr: ::1/128 Scope:Host \ UP LOOPBACK RUNNING MTU:16436 Metric:1 \ RX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 \ TX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 \ collisions:0 txqueuelen:0 \ RX bytes:0 (0.0 B) TX bytes:0 (0.0 B) \
08:13:23 <pikhq_> No. You'll note that there's no external link at *all*.
08:13:39 <pikhq_> And 0 RX and TX'd packets.
08:14:48 <japh> `/usr/sbin/traceroute google.com |head
08:14:51 <HackEgo> google.com |head: Name or service not known \ Cannot handle "host" cmdline arg `google.com |head' on position 1 (argc 1)
08:15:02 <japh> `/usr/sbin/traceroute google.com
08:15:05 <HackEgo> google.com: Name or service not known \ Cannot handle "host" cmdline arg `google.com' on position 1 (argc 1)
08:16:24 <japh> `/usr/bin/traceroute -n 74.125.224.73
08:16:39 <pikhq_> `run /usr/bin/traceroute -n 74.125.224.73
08:16:42 <HackEgo> \ connect: Network is unreachable \ traceroute to 74.125.224.73 (74.125.224.73), 30 hops max, 60 byte packets
08:17:22 <pikhq_> By default it's passing the whole line as a single argument; /bin/run makes it do more what you'd expect.
08:17:34 <pikhq_> Bit of a shame it's not with the older sandbox scheme. Where it was running as root. :)
08:17:59 <pikhq_> ... Wait, was it? No, actually, don't think it was.
08:18:28 <pikhq_> Although would've been impossible to break out, anyways.
08:18:28 <japh> linux containers makes that easy again
08:18:52 <japh> `/run cat /proc/cpuinfo
08:18:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /run: No such file or directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /run: cannot execute: No such file or directory
08:19:07 <HackEgo> processor.: 0 \ vendor_id : User Mode Linux \ model name.: UML \ mode..: skas \ host..: Linux codu.org 2.6.32-5-xen-amd64 #1 SMP Tue Mar 8 00:01:30 UTC 2011 x86_64 \ bogomips.: 501.35 \
08:20:26 <japh> `run iptables -L
08:20:30 <HackEgo> bash: iptables: command not found
08:20:53 <japh> `run /sbin/iptables -L
08:20:56 <HackEgo> iptables v1.4.8: can't initialize iptables table `filter': Table does not exist (do you need to insmod?) \ Perhaps iptables or your kernel needs to be upgraded.
08:21:06 <ion> `sudo true
08:21:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: sudo: not found
08:21:30 <japh> `/usr/bin/sudo yes
08:21:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /usr/bin/sudo: No such file or directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /usr/bin/sudo: cannot execute: No such file or directory
08:22:00 <HackEgo> apt 0.8.10.3 for amd64 compiled on Apr 15 2011 07:35:31 \ Usage: apt-get [options] command \ apt-get [options] install|remove pkg1 [pkg2 ...] \ apt-get [options] source pkg1 [pkg2 ...] \ \ apt-get is a simple command line interface for downloading and \ installing packages. The most frequently used commands are update \ and install. \ \ Commands: \ update - Retrieve new lists of packages \ upgrade -
08:22:29 <ion> `lsb_release -a
08:22:33 <HackEgo> No LSB modules are available. \ Distributor ID: Debian \ Description:.Debian GNU/Linux \ Release:.n/a \ Codename: n/a
08:23:32 <japh> `run /usr/sbin/sshd -p5555
08:23:35 <HackEgo> bash: /usr/sbin/sshd: No such file or directory
08:23:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: locate: not found
08:24:00 <ion> Wasn’t it pretty much established it doesn’t have network connectivity? :-)
08:24:00 <japh> `run find / |grep sshd
08:24:04 <HackEgo> find: `/proc/tty/driver': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/fd': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/fdinfo': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/ns': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/fd': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/fdinfo': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/ns': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/2/task/2/fd': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/2/task/2/fdinfo': Permission denied \ find:
08:24:11 <japh> but i'm talking to it
08:24:19 <HackEgo> 1: lo: <LOOPBACK,UP,LOWER_UP> mtu 16436 qdisc noqueue state UNKNOWN \ link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00 \ inet 127.0.0.1/8 scope host lo \ inet6 ::1/128 scope host \ valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever \ 2: sit0: <NOARP> mtu 1480 qdisc noop state DOWN \ link/sit 0.0.0.0 brd 0.0.0.0
08:24:41 <japh> if we can take down an alien race with a macbook virus on the 4th of july, i can make this thing call me
08:25:02 <ion> You’re talking to HackEgo who talks to the jailed Debian instance.
08:25:19 <japh> get my minions on the line
08:25:27 <pikhq_> Rather, who spawns, talks to the jailed Debian instance, and despawns.
08:25:51 <HackEgo> April 2012 \ Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa \ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 \ 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 \ 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 \ 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 \ 29 30 \
08:26:40 <japh> `run echo '2^8'|bc
08:26:43 <HackEgo> bash: bc: command not found
08:26:54 <japh> `sleep 50000000
08:27:15 <japh> fa la la la la, la la la la
08:27:56 <japh> `ruby -e 'print "foo"'
08:27:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ruby: not found
08:28:41 <japh> `perl -e 'for(1..10){print"yay$_"}'
08:29:01 <japh> `perl -e 'print"yay"'
08:29:11 <japh> YOUR mother too
08:30:00 <ion> `perl -lwe 'print "plop"'
08:30:02 <HackEgo> Useless use of a constant in void context at -e line 1.
08:30:10 <ion> `run perl -lwe 'print "plop"'
08:30:18 <ion> Interesting
08:30:21 <Taneb> `cat "putStrLn \"test\"" | runhaskell
08:30:23 <HackEgo> cat: "putStrLn \"test\"" | runhaskell: No such file or directory
08:30:32 <Taneb> `echo "putStrLn \"test\"" | runhaskell
08:30:35 <HackEgo> "putStrLn \"test\"" | runhaskell
08:31:42 <japh> `run head /dev/random|strings
08:32:11 <ion> `run uname -a
08:32:14 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.0.8-umlbox #2 Sun Nov 13 21:30:28 UTC 2011 x86_64 GNU/Linux
08:33:25 <japh> `run sleep 10 && echo thread 1
08:33:31 <japh> `run sleep 3 && echo thread 2
08:35:02 <ion> `run for n in 5 9 8 7 2 4 3 1 6; do (sleep "$n"; printf "%s " "$n") & done
08:35:11 <japh> `run sleep 8000 && echo That wyldstallyns fellow made some very interesting points.
08:35:26 <ion> `run for n in 5 9 8 7 2 4 3 1 6; do (sleep "$n"; printf "%s " "$n") & done; wait
08:36:32 <HackEgo> USER PID %CPU %MEM VSZ RSS TTY STAT START TIME COMMAND \ 5000 272 0.0 0.0 912 92 ? S 08:36 0:00 /init \ 5000 274 0.0 0.2 4004 556 ? S 08:36 0:00 sh -c 'env' 'PATH=/hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin' 'HACKENV=/hackenv' 'http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128' '/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits' 'ps' 'ux' | cat \ 5000
08:37:34 <HackEgo> USER PID %CPU %MEM VSZ RSS TTY STAT START TIME COMMAND \ 0 1 0.0 0.1 912 276 ? S 08:37 0:00 /init \ 0 2 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S 08:37 0:00 [kthreadd] \ 0 3 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S 08:37 0:00 [ksoftirqd/0] \ 0 4 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S 08:37 0:00 [kworker/0:0] \ 0 5 0.0 0.0 0
08:38:01 <japh> i won't issue killall
08:38:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: killall: not found
08:38:52 <japh> `/usr/bin/killall
08:38:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /usr/bin/killall: No such file or directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /usr/bin/killall: cannot execute: No such file or directory
08:39:28 <HackEgo> ERROR: unknown signal name "9 2". \ Usage: \ kill pid ... Send SIGTERM to every process listed. \ kill signal pid ... Send a signal to every process listed. \ kill -s signal pid ... Send a signal to every process listed. \ kill -l List all signal names. \ kill -L List all signal names in a nice table. \ kill -l signal Convert between signal numbers and names.
08:39:38 <ion> `run which pkill
08:39:40 <HackEgo> ERROR: garbage process ID "TERM 2". \ Usage: \ kill pid ... Send SIGTERM to every process listed. \ kill signal pid ... Send a signal to every process listed. \ kill -s signal pid ... Send a signal to every process listed. \ kill -l List all signal names. \ kill -L List all signal names in a nice table. \ kill -l signal Convert between signal numbers and names.
08:39:54 <japh> <- garbage process
08:39:59 -!- shubshub has joined.
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08:40:29 <japh> is for heorses
08:40:30 <ion> `run pkill -9 ''
08:40:33 <HackEgo> pkill: 1 - Operation not permitted \ pkill: 2 - Operation not permitted \ pkill: 3 - Operation not permitted \ pkill: 4 - Operation not permitted \ pkill: 5 - Operation not permitted \ pkill: 6 - Operation not permitted \ pkill: 7 - Operation not permitted \ pkill: 8 - Operation not permitted \ pkill: 11 - Operation not permitted \ pkill: 40 - Operation not permitted \ pkill: 42 - Operation not permitted \ pkill: 44 -
08:40:57 <Sgeo> "In course of our duty in 2003 to 2009, I secured the sum of ( ) from the
08:40:57 <Sgeo> stash money found while Serving in Baghdad Iraq and this money was
08:40:57 <Sgeo> kept somewhere in a security Company vault, due to my redeployment
08:40:57 <Sgeo> to Afghanistan."
08:41:03 <Sgeo> That's an impressive amount of money.
08:41:11 <shubshub> im gonna teach fungot sum new tricks
08:41:11 <fungot> shubshub: whatever. i can see the dent in the accident and resulting fire killed 3 of the cpu logic so this game
08:41:20 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube*
08:41:27 <japh> `/sbin/initiate-skynet && echo 'initiate-skynet: not found'
08:41:30 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /sbin/initiate-skynet: No such file or directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /sbin/initiate-skynet: cannot execute: No such file or directory
08:41:35 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
08:41:37 <Sgeo> Is that more or less than a billion dollars?
08:41:46 <Sgeo> ...I suck at making fun of spam
08:41:59 <japh> sgeo been a while
08:42:10 <pikhq_> shubshub: Do you speak Funge 98?
08:42:22 <japh> i forget who you know me as
08:42:42 <Sgeo> japh, well, where would I know you from?
08:42:52 <pikhq_> Sgeo: He's apparently RDF, among other things.
08:42:55 <shubshub> pikqh You just use the ^def thing and teach the bot using brainfuck
08:42:55 <japh> eso a year back
08:43:14 <Sgeo> I have no memory, sorry
08:43:24 <japh> i don't even know who i was so np
08:43:25 <pikhq_> http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ knows all.
08:43:26 <shubshub> except i need someone to teach me brainfuck
08:43:35 <Sgeo> shubshub, read about it
08:44:08 <japh> your future in engineering dims
08:45:23 <Sgeo> shubshub, the mechanics of it is simple
08:45:31 <japh> [ ] + - < > . ,
08:45:38 <japh> that's all you need to create the universe
08:45:41 <Sgeo> I can understand how writing stuff in it can be tricky, but the language itself is easy
08:45:43 <shubshub> How Do I Make It Translate Something
08:46:05 <japh> plz plz plz plz plz
08:46:06 <Sgeo> I need to go to sleep a few hours ago, so no
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08:47:18 <shubshub> How Would I Make BrainFuck Convert Stuff To !!!Batch?
08:47:55 <HackEgo> 2012-04-30.txt:08:47:38: `anonlog brainfuck batch
08:48:30 <Sgeo> shubshub, you mean, write something in Brainfuck to convert.... something else to !!!Batch?
08:48:36 <Sgeo> Or convert brainfuck code to !!!Batch?
08:48:58 <shubshub> What was the code itidus20 used?
08:49:09 <japh> step 1, give up
08:50:01 <shubshub> Want it to convert text to batch
08:50:34 <Sgeo> What do you mean, "text"?
08:50:41 <Sgeo> Everything in here is text
08:50:51 <Sgeo> Including !!!Batch code
08:51:10 <Sgeo> Oh, so you want to produce the !!!Batch code that will print Hello?
08:51:39 <shubshub> no I want to produce the batch code of the text I give it to convert
08:52:13 <Sgeo> I ... think I see
08:52:19 <shubshub> So Like if i tell it to convert abc it shud output ?!??!!??!!!? or if i want ABC ?!+??!!+?!!!+?
08:52:52 <shubshub> + Tells the interpreter to make it a capital
08:53:42 <Sgeo> I see something you _could_ do, but it's probably not the best way
08:54:11 <shubshub> Also Is it possible to use ^def something
08:54:12 <shubshub> then do ^something <insert text to convert>
08:54:13 <Sgeo> You could make some sort of structure in the BF code that resembles a switch case sort of thing
08:54:38 <shubshub> Whats the other language fungot can define?
08:54:38 <fungot> shubshub: jsut stfu..ppl die everyday and someday you'll pass. the crash was in the trees?that was a fly by like that
08:54:50 <Sgeo> Or, I see the pattern of !!!Batch: Subtract some value from the input char, see if it's cap, loop number of times depending on value and cap to print !
08:55:22 <shubshub> I Know fung can define using another language other than brainfuck
08:55:22 <Sgeo> Although I see you did not take that approach in !Py!Batch
08:56:13 <Sgeo> shubshub, your !Py!Batch code is a long series of manually put in substitutions from !!!Batch to decoded text.
08:56:37 <Sgeo> There are easier ways than that
08:57:19 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
08:57:20 <Sgeo> japh, will you kill me if I pretend that the universe is ASCII?
08:57:37 -!- monqy has left.
08:57:42 <Sgeo> I'll try to stick with Unicode here, but I don't know if ord and chr do Unicode properly
08:57:49 <Sgeo> Probably Unlambda
08:58:11 <Sgeo> shubshub, basically, every character is a number
08:58:57 <Sgeo> So, why not count the !, if there's no + then add some value to get the corresponding character
08:59:02 <Sgeo> If there is a + add a different value
08:59:25 <Sgeo> And also, don't think in terms of it being "ASCII"
08:59:34 <shubshub> You Mean use something other than "+"?
09:00:13 <shubshub> Ill Think about that for !Ruby!Batch
09:00:29 <Sgeo> shubshub, no, I mean check for +, and if it's there, you need to add a different value to get to the uppercase letters
09:00:31 <Sgeo> Also, http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/Unicode.html
09:01:14 <Sgeo> I'm. not. talking. about. Brainfuck. right. now.
09:01:52 <Sgeo> shubshub, !!!Batch uses + to indicate capital letters, correct?
09:02:20 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Unknown command: "!+?"
09:02:29 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
09:02:31 <Sgeo> a has a different "ASCII number" (I'm only saying ascii because that's all you understand) from A
09:02:46 <Sgeo> So to go from 1 to whatever a's number is, you need to add a different number than from 1 to A
09:03:01 <Sgeo> So, when converting !!!Batch to decoded text, check for whether + is present
09:03:22 <Sgeo> Then, you add a different number to the number of ! depending on whether or not that + was present
09:03:35 <shubshub> I Dont really understand sorry
09:03:51 <Sgeo> Do you know what an if statement is?
09:05:10 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
09:06:16 <lambdabot> unexpected end of input: expecting number
09:06:21 <Sgeo> shubshub, I note with alarm that from 1.3 to 1.5 !!!Batch changed for no clear reason
09:06:49 <lambdabot> unexpected "-": expecting digit, "d", "+" or end
09:07:00 <lambdabot> unexpected end of input: expecting number
09:07:19 <Sgeo> shubshub, nevermind
09:08:13 <shubshub> I Had to move it to Python to allow it multiline Conversion and Better Execution of code
09:08:20 <Sgeo> shubshub, in !!!Batch, what is ?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?
09:09:22 <Sgeo> Because 1.3 has |
09:09:25 <Sgeo> Why the change?
09:09:59 <shubshub> Im Gonna Add it back in for the next update
09:11:00 <shubshub> Just Like with !Py!Batch I had to remove the backslash \
09:11:42 <shubshub> But With !Ruby!Batch It should all work out :D
09:12:28 <shubshub> And then Maybe ill do !Fuck!Batch or maybe finally the next Batch Deriv ???Batch lol
09:13:12 <shubshub> !!!Batch is just the language name But the Interpreters Have different names
09:13:52 <shubshub> Also !Ruby!Batch Eliminates The Need to save converted script tp a file
09:14:30 <shubshub> !Py!Batch 1.6 Might Even solve that Problem
09:15:07 <shubshub> But !CMD!Batch is Finished No more Updates for it ^_^
09:15:23 <Sgeo> shubshub, to put a \ in a string, use \\
09:15:58 <Sgeo> shubshub, because you didn't learn enough of .... any programming language
09:16:01 <Sgeo> It's pretty basic stuff
09:16:38 <Sgeo> I'm going to show you where it is in the official Python tutorial, hold on
09:17:04 <shubshub> What I Actually need is for itidus20 to come online
09:17:17 <shubshub> So I can get the code off of him
09:17:48 <shubshub> He Made A Basic !!!Batch Converter in Brainfuck (Basic Meanjng only lowercase letters)
09:18:22 <shubshub> and then I can teach fung !!!Batch Conversion
09:18:56 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
09:19:43 <Sgeo> shubshub, do you understand what that should output, and why?
09:20:31 <Sgeo> And I am forcing myself to go to sleep right now.
09:22:08 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
09:25:17 <Sgeo> ^bf_txtgen hello
09:25:32 <shubshub> ^def hWorld bf >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.[-] >++++++++[<++++>-] <.>+++++++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.--------.+++ .------.--------.[-]>++++++++[<++++>- ]<+.[-]++++++++++.
09:25:41 <Sgeo> Would have been amusing if it worked
09:25:47 <Sgeo> Why am I still awake
09:30:47 <fizzie> It already *has* a silly "hello, world" command.
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09:40:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bots: not found
09:41:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bf_txtgen: not found
09:41:26 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
09:42:08 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
09:43:36 <Sgeo> Hooray for using "gay" as a pejorative?
09:43:41 <Sgeo> Why am I awake.
09:44:27 <Sgeo> You already know what it's going to o
09:45:13 <shubshub> Im Gonna Go Make More StuffTo Teach It
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09:54:52 <Taneb> fungot, what do you think I should do?
09:54:53 <fungot> Taneb: this will rise the bar for fps games forever
09:55:03 <Taneb> fungot, I don't play fps games
09:55:03 <fungot> Taneb: it is probably a symbolic reference to an altitude of 100 feet when he starts " screaming" it's very hard to believe he was actually a test of a newly-delivered fly-by-wire airbus a320
09:55:23 <Taneb> fungot, that sounds scary, I'd better not
09:55:23 <fungot> Taneb: his voice is you who claim it is
09:57:04 <Taneb> It's just a hello world program!
09:57:23 <Taneb> ^ul (Hello world!)S
09:59:18 <shubshub> ^def whois ul(Hello I am fungot I am programmed using befunge 98 I can interpret Brainfuck and underload)S
09:59:18 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
09:59:59 <shubshub> ^def whois ul (Hello I am fungot I am created in befunge 98 I can interpret brainfuck and underload)S
10:00:14 <fungot> Hello I am fungot I am created in befunge 98 I can interpret brainfuck and underload
10:01:00 <Taneb> ^def whois ul (Hello! I'm fungot, I'm created in Befunge 98, and as well as keeping up conversations I can interpret brainfuck and Underload!)S
10:01:02 <fungot> Hello! I'm fungot, I'm created in Befunge 98, and as well as keeping up conversations I can interpret brainfuck and Underload!
10:03:48 <fungot> Hello! I'm fungot, I'm created in Befunge 98, and as well as keeping up conversations I can interpret brainfuck and Underload!
10:04:47 <shubshub> !bf_txtgen WHY ISNT THIS WORKING
10:07:12 <Taneb> I was just trying something
10:07:57 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
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10:10:24 <shubshub> ^def welcome ul (Welcome to the #esoteric channel enjoy your stay ^_^)S
10:10:32 <fungot> Welcome to the #esoteric channel enjoy your stay ^_^
10:12:03 <Taneb> Where's elliott :(
10:12:09 <Taneb> I want to play dwarf fortress
10:12:51 <Taneb> But then elliott will be angry at me for playing dwarf fortress!
10:12:56 <Taneb> Without him watching!
10:13:37 <Taneb> BECAUSE HE LOGREADS
10:14:05 <Taneb> We have a sacred vow never to know each-other IRL.
10:14:12 <shubshub> Then How does he find out!?! is dwarf fortrezs online?
10:14:25 <Taneb> I broadcast me playing it now
10:15:18 <shubshub> ^def elliott ul (Taneb was gonna play dwarf fortress without elliott watching :O)S
10:15:26 <fungot> Taneb was gonna play dwarf fortress without elliott watching :O
10:15:38 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
10:15:54 <fungot> Taneb was gonna play dwarf fortress without elliott watching :O
10:16:00 <Taneb> ^def elliott ul ()S
10:16:16 <Taneb> @tell shubshub that's what @tell is for
10:16:23 <lambdabot> shubshub: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
10:16:43 <lambdabot> Taneb said 27s ago: that's what @tell is for
10:17:14 <shubshub> @tell elliott Taneb was gonna play dwarf fortress without you watching
10:18:54 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
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10:19:27 <Taneb> It was ^whois, iirc
10:19:40 <fungot> Hello! I'm fungot, I'm created in Befunge 98, and as well as keeping up conversations I can interpret brainfuck and Underload!
10:20:23 <Taneb> shubshub thought of it, I was annoyed by shubshub's attempt and improved it
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10:23:43 <shubshub> wrote that one myself in brainfuck
10:23:52 <fungot> shubshub: oznaczono jako spam
10:24:16 <fungot> nortti: beer is my favoriet song from avril sorry 4 this realy bad englis grreting from holland;-)
10:24:41 <Taneb> fungot is Dutch? Who knew?
10:24:41 <fungot> Taneb: the oops list, click oops list and youtube are not uncommon at all
10:25:01 <shubshub> ^def fungot ul (Me :D I'm fungot)S
10:28:38 <fungot> Hello! I'm fungot, I'm created in Befunge 98, and as well as keeping up conversations I can interpret brainfuck and Underload!
10:29:08 <nortti> ^def fungot ul (:(Me :D I'm fungot)S^):^
10:29:13 <fungot> Me :D I'm fungotMe :D I'm fungotMe :D I'm fungotMe :D I'm fungotMe :D I'm fungotMe :D I'm fungotMe :D I'm fungotMe :D I'm fungotMe :D I'm fungotMe :D I'm fungotMe :D I'm fungotMe :D I'm fungotMe :D I'm fungotMe :D I'm fungotMe :D I'm fungotMe :D I'm fungotMe :D I'm fungotMe :D I'm fungotMe :D I'm fungotMe :D I'm fungotMe : ...too much output!
10:29:28 <nortti> ^def fungot ul (:(Me :D I'm fungot )S^):^
10:29:29 <fungot> Me :D I'm fungot Me :D I'm fungot Me :D I'm fungot Me :D I'm fungot Me :D I'm fungot Me :D I'm fungot Me :D I'm fungot Me :D I'm fungot Me :D I'm fungot Me :D I'm fungot Me :D I'm fungot Me :D I'm fungot Me :D I'm fungot Me :D I'm fungot Me :D I'm fungot Me :D I'm fungot Me :D I'm fungot Me :D I'm fungot Me :D I'm fungot M ...too much output!
10:30:57 <nortti> I don't want to fuck man
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11:02:06 <coppro> git://git.sv.gnu.org/lilypond.git/
11:02:11 <coppro> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.12/Documentation/devel/contrib-guide/Getting-the-source-code
11:02:20 <coppro> the instructions for checking out the source are hilarious
11:02:26 <coppro> apparently the author doesn't believe in porcelain or something?
11:05:59 <Gregor> That is one crazy checkout command.
11:09:38 <coppro> Gregor: it's git clone
11:12:39 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
11:13:23 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.18568
11:13:30 <Gregor> coppro: I realize that.
11:13:33 <Gregor> That doesn't make it less crazy.
11:16:28 <coppro> I stand by my belief that GNU programmers are insane
11:16:57 <nortti> coppro: why do you think so?
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12:27:30 <fungot> Taneb: not limited as in makes it non io-complete
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12:43:33 <fizzie> I just flushed the commands, due to all kinds of sillitude.
12:43:39 <fizzie> Don't have an ^undef in there.
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12:51:30 <Taneb> Just read a headline on BBC News website, in the science section
12:51:52 <Taneb> (to protect koalas)
12:54:04 <fizzie> "Recent GPS measurement in Australia confirms the plate's velocity of 67 mm/yr at 35 degrees east of north."
12:54:17 <fizzie> Not sure how exactly that protects koalas.
12:55:52 <Taneb> Turns out, it was referring to the political entity rather than the land mass
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14:38:42 <Taneb> elliott: why are you not online?
14:38:58 <Taneb> Why are you asleep!? It's three thirty eight!
14:39:09 <Taneb> Three thirty nine, even!
14:39:28 <Taneb> I know what you're thinking, the answer's on my user pagr
14:45:26 <Taneb> Time zones, fizzie
14:45:35 <Taneb> I suggest you come to this one, it's the best!
14:45:42 <Taneb> It's got me, and elliott, and ais523
14:45:47 <fizzie> I like being in the future.
14:46:22 <ais523> fizzie: UTC+3 summer, UTC+2 winter, I'm guessing?
14:46:22 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:46:30 <ais523> (actually, I guessed that even before I CTCP TIMEd you)
14:46:34 <fizzie> Yes. It's the EET/EEST.
14:47:10 <Taneb> Help I'm trapped in this text box
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15:35:05 <ais523> wow, the current version of Evolution yells at you for /not/ using reply all on messages sent to a list
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17:15:07 <Sgeo> Is it possible to prevent Chrome from playing video when it sees the <video> tag?
17:17:15 <Sgeo> Maybe if I claim to be IE?
17:19:27 <Taneb> Or if you write a plugin to remove the autoplay attributes from all videos when loading a page?
17:22:19 <Sgeo> Good idea. I should learn how to write plugins
17:26:35 <Sgeo> channel.me seems like a sufficiently convenient workaround for now
17:27:04 <Sgeo> It doesn't autoplay videos :(
17:32:18 <Sgeo> Synchtube will have to do
17:34:47 <Taneb> I am going to WRITE THIS EXTENSION
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18:23:19 <elliott> To sto0p rroeceeivoiing theese mmezsagoes, ploleaose e-n-dd an emaiil to cpierwpzz [aat] gmail [d0t] com wltthh the w-orodo STOP i-n the osvboject l-in-ee.
18:23:20 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:26:09 <ais523> elliott: (re lambdabot msg) thanks for letting me know
18:26:25 <elliott> hmm, I forgot — oh, the NetHack 4 message?
18:26:34 <elliott> I noticed it when watching monqy play
18:26:47 <elliott> btw, you also use a lowercase "w" for the "what is your name?" prompt
18:26:59 <ais523> meanwhile, it's rather hilarious to see Schwartz busy shouting at people on Twitter over the Oracle vs. Google lawsuit
18:27:17 <ais523> he pretty strongly seems to think Google are in the right
18:27:39 <ais523> and that's a daniel_tism, but I don't have to agree with him on everytihng
18:28:26 <elliott> ais523: what's a daniel_tism?
18:28:30 <elliott> starting the prompt with a lowercase letter?
18:28:37 <elliott> I wouldn't care if it was done /consistently/
18:28:57 <ais523> elliott: something done by daniel_t where nobody else understands why
18:33:45 <elliott> ais523: by the way, you really need to add spectating
18:33:53 <elliott> monqy had to termcast his telnet session so i could watch
18:34:02 <ais523> elliott: I know, but it's nontrivial
18:34:14 <ais523> daniel_t couldn't figure out how to do it at all; I think I know how but I'm being too lazy to implement it
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18:34:41 <ais523> spectating would probably need an account, technologically speaking, but I could just make a guest/anon account for the purpose
18:35:26 <elliott> ais523: meh, what's the problem? vagabond handles spectating just fine
18:35:51 <ais523> elliott: spectators can run commands in the game they're spectating
18:36:06 <Taneb> elliott, shall I play DF?
18:36:11 <elliott> that doesn't sound necessary (but vagabond can do that too)
18:36:28 <ais523> well, the feature exists already; it's real-time spectating that doesn't
18:37:00 <ais523> but it shouldn't be too hard to adapt watching to be able to read a file as it's being written, especially with my changes to not load games into memory but rather leave them on the disk
18:37:03 <elliott> just do the equivalent of termcasting to start with
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18:37:17 <ais523> elliott: no, that'd be /harder/ to write than doing it properly
18:37:18 <elliott> it'll just make it worse than vagabond, that's all
18:37:26 <ais523> is vagabond vaporware?
18:38:15 <elliott> "guess ill watch" --elliotte
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18:39:41 <elliott> ais523: did you know you can termcast dwarf fortress?
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18:40:01 <ais523> elliott: yes, IIRC Adeon wrote the code to do so
18:40:12 <ais523> via reverse-engineering the way the display code worked
18:40:14 <elliott> hmm, I doubt it, unless Adeon knows Toady One
18:40:55 <elliott> Taneb is just using the built-in terminal output
18:43:07 <elliott> Gregor: Bet it's based on apt (and therefore wrong).
18:43:15 <Gregor> It's not based on anything right now.
18:43:44 <Gregor> I'd like for it to be, but they're all pretty wildly unsuitable :(
18:44:27 <elliott> Anyway, a Nix-style package manager (or Nix itself) would be very well suited to with.
18:44:34 <elliott> Which is why I was gonna use cunionfs for Kitten :P
18:46:06 <Gregor> I just rolled a quick-n-dirty version checker. I was more interested in making sure that the design basically functions for the moment, I'll plug in a real version tracer "soon"
18:46:54 <elliott> Gregor: FWIW with a Nix-style system you don't need to do much dependency resolution at all.
18:50:14 <Gregor> Seems like with nix, all I really need to do is swap out nix-env for my more dynamic environment.
18:53:02 <elliott> Gregor: Which is nice, 'cuz the whole "directory tree full of symlinks" thing is ugly as hell :P
18:54:27 <elliott> ais523: hey, is IVAN worth playing?
18:57:43 <elliott> bleh, why aren't you a font of inexhaustible roguelike knowledge?
18:58:24 <elliott> Taneb: Have you hit adamantine yet?
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19:00:53 <elliott> termcast needs a note system.
19:01:18 <nortti> Gregor: were it you who was working on linux distro with no gnu software
19:01:48 <Gregor> nortti: Virtually everyone in #musl seems to be.
19:02:04 <elliott> Sorry to be pedantic, but IMHO calling haskell's lists "linked lists" or talking about "doubly-linked lists" in the context of pure FP is dragging a lot of imperative baggage (pointers, destructive updates) into the discussion and confuses things. – jberryman 2 hours ago
19:02:14 <elliott> Linked lists, what an imperative concept.
19:02:32 <elliott> It is literally impossible to build structures out of other structures recursively in functional languages.
19:02:50 <nortti> Gregor: can you give some pointers for me? I am trying to move my own distro away from gnu bloatware
19:03:34 <Gregor> nortti: Start with musl. Then cry a lot. Then give up and accept GNU make, sed, gawk, but stand your ground on everything else.
19:03:35 -!- elliott has left.
19:07:09 <Gregor> nortti: It's probably worthwhile to build Sabotage ( https://github.com/rofl0r/sabotage ) even if you don't intend to use it, just to see how it gets things working.
19:07:18 <Gregor> Oh yeah, you also have to give up and accept GNU cc, binutils
19:07:28 <Gregor> clang may be feasible eventually.
19:07:44 <nortti> Gregor: can't musl be used with tinycc?
19:07:59 -!- elliott has joined.
19:08:05 <Gregor> Idonno, but musl isn't really the issue.
19:08:17 <elliott> ais523: Happy Australian mailman mailing list memberships reminders day.
19:09:28 <pikhq> Yeah, *musl* is relatively sane and portable C.
19:09:31 <pikhq> Most things aren't. :)
19:13:35 <pikhq> On an unrelated note: having a non-migraine very painful headache is a completely new experience for me.
19:13:52 <Taneb> Never had a migraine
19:13:57 <Taneb> Get painful headaches all the time
19:15:25 <pikhq> I suppose this is a hell of a lot better, though.
19:15:31 <pikhq> Hooray, no photosensitivity!
19:15:31 <elliott> ais523: btw, I think I figured out a food system I mostly like
19:15:40 <elliott> err, for roguelikes, that is
19:21:28 <Taneb> Traders bring caravans now, I was checking if they could get to my trade depot
19:21:46 <elliott> it's a lot flashier over termcast since the blinking delay gets messed up :)
19:22:04 <Taneb> I'll try to avoid it
19:23:04 <Taneb> Some weird guy who may not exist
19:23:11 <elliott> ais523: well, I've decided against having time-based HP recovery
19:23:23 <elliott> or rather, time-based recovery of anything in general
19:23:47 <elliott> ais523: so I like the idea of food restoring energy (perhaps more well-rounded than just HP, compared to a potion of get better (technical term)), and all food decaying
19:23:49 <ais523> so it's "eat food to regain health"?
19:24:11 <elliott> more or less, except you might have to eat an awful lot if you're almost dead
19:24:13 <ais523> would it be an instant restorative, or a temporary regen booster? (the two play rather differently)
19:24:45 <elliott> and since all food would decay, you wouldn't be able to risk almost dying and then retreating to recover unless you have a _lot_ of food stocked up (that somehow hasn't decayed yet) or healing potions
19:24:57 <elliott> because you'd have to go and kill things to get more food, and you might not survive a fight with them
19:25:08 <elliott> I think I like the latter better
19:26:00 <elliott> hmm, I might add a sleep mechanism for restoring HP, too, with the caveat that it'll *severely* weaken you to any attacks
19:26:09 <elliott> (so you could only use it if you found a very safe place)
19:26:10 <ais523> elliott: so you can only do it in a cleared-out level?
19:26:25 <elliott> ais523: meh, I don't want levels to be permacleared, I think
19:26:38 <elliott> ais523: you'd have to find a room and then lock the doors strongly with magic or something
19:26:47 <elliott> and hope there's nothing powerful enough to crack them open about
19:26:50 <Taneb> Hotels in the middle of dungeons
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19:32:20 <elliott> ais523: Agora is dead, right?
19:32:50 <ais523> elliott: no, just uninteresting
19:32:53 <ais523> it goes through phases of that
19:33:07 <elliott> this phase has lasted months!
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19:33:46 <fungot> shubshub: someone once said stalin is ( was) a bolshevik revolutionary and the second srfi-1 should have been
19:34:26 <ais523> OK, now /that's/ a good fungot quote
19:34:26 <fungot> ais523: the only thing missing is a nice religion so far, glass and def-bf can coexist peacefully on top of each stack) by turning it to xml.
19:34:48 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
19:35:15 <elliott> scheme talk means it's the irc style
19:35:30 <shubshub> ais523 why did fung forget ^whois ?
19:35:46 <ais523> shubshub: I don't think it ever existed in the first place
19:35:59 <ais523> oh, probably rebooted, then
19:36:08 <ais523> definitions don't stick around forever
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19:38:08 <shubshub> ^def whois ul (Hello! I'm fungot as well as keeping up with conversations I can also interpret Brainfuck! and Underload!)S
19:38:14 <fungot> Hello! I'm fungot as well as keeping up with conversations I can also interpret Brainfuck! and Underload!
19:39:02 <shubshub> Should make it a permanant command
19:39:17 <lambdabot> bots shouldn't talk like that. it ain't right.
19:39:41 <ais523> shubshub: brainfuck doesn't start with a capital B, except at the start of a sentence
19:39:57 <elliott> shachaf doesn't talk like that.
19:42:06 <elliott> Actually it sounds kind of like quintopia. But I doubt he knows the lambdabot admin bug.
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19:42:36 <elliott> Hi oerjan; we have a mystery.
19:43:05 <oerjan> mysterium mysteriosissimum
19:43:15 <elliott> Someone used lambdabot to talk in here and I don't know who it is. :(
19:43:39 <oerjan> have kmc and shachaf denied doing it?
19:43:51 <elliott> It doesn't sound like shachaf. :(
19:44:00 <elliott> I don't think kmc is a lambdabot admin, although of course technically neither is shachaf.
19:44:51 <ais523> elliott: did you ever see the secret admins argument at BlogNomic?
19:45:12 <elliott> no, but it rings a bell; probably you told me about it, then I forgot
19:45:27 <elliott> so now you get to tell me about it again
19:45:35 <oerjan> <shubshub> ^whois <-- you know there's ^help, right?
19:45:42 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
19:47:24 <ais523> elliott: basically, it was a combination of things that were previously believed to be admin-only actually being possible by any user (just most people didn't realise), and the interface occasionally putting edit links on posts other people had made due to some sort of weird bug
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19:47:59 <ais523> and the result was the belief that someone had somehow got "semi-admin" rights via some unknown method
19:48:08 <elliott> ais523: which is worse: Expression Engine or Community Server?
19:48:20 <ais523> community server, easily
19:48:37 <ais523> EE is reasonably sane for its intended purpose
19:48:44 <ais523> but does not make an amazingly good webforum
19:50:27 <ais523> it's sort-of like using a VCS when what you really need is a wiki, or vice versa
19:54:14 <elliott> you might still have a stray dc process lying around
19:54:19 <elliott> (also, did you really type "exit" manually there?)
19:54:31 <elliott> (and s/nc/netcat/, perhaps)
19:55:24 <elliott> shachaf: lambdabot said something and it wasn't me and I don't know who it was. :(
19:55:32 <elliott> 20:39 <lambdabot> bots shouldn't talk like that. it ain't right.
19:55:49 <elliott> shachaf: That sounds insincere. :(
19:55:54 -!- shubshub has quit (Quit: R.I.P).
19:55:57 <shachaf> Yep. Definitely insincere.
19:56:10 <elliott> If you actually did it and it was that recent, you wouldn't ask for when.
19:56:37 <shachaf> What if I asked for when just to make you think "If [shachaf] actually did it and it was that recent, [shachaf] wouldn't ask for when"???????
19:56:53 <shachaf> Anyway you beeped my name.
19:57:03 <elliott> I wish lambdabot let you list the admins.
19:58:12 <elliott> It should error out if you de-admin someone who isn't an admin.
19:58:14 <shachaf> None of those people are @admins...
19:58:57 <elliott> No. (I knew you'd say that.)
19:59:07 <shachaf> ((I knew you'd say that.))
20:02:16 <ion> That post is hilarious. It didn’t deserve the downvotes. :-( Upvoted. http://www.reddit.com/r/windows/comments/sydia/i_want_windows_7_back/c4i26a1
20:09:39 <mroman_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Most_ever_Brainfuckiest_Fuck_you_Brain_fucker_Fuck
20:09:52 <elliott> that's oklopol's new language
20:10:06 <elliott> his first in years, I think
20:13:48 <shachaf> uh-oh. that sounds illegal. better call the oklopolice.
20:14:14 <oerjan> nah he's just oklofucking with us
20:16:15 <Lumpio-> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Poison this article is dumb.
20:19:04 <japh> it needs an Unimplemented tag
20:19:42 <shachaf> Wow, kmc would thoroughly enjoy that article.
20:20:48 <elliott> japh: How do you *know* it's not implemented?
20:21:37 <elliott> b - a potion of brilliance
20:21:40 <elliott> h - 2 potions of levitation
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20:29:28 <elliott> Soul's ghost screams, "I have seen your future, and it is all used up."
20:29:29 <elliott> is that really the best you can do
20:29:39 * oerjan was synchronistically just now at http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/101103.html
20:34:46 <elliott> ais523: hill giant zombies are terrifying, right?
20:35:33 <ais523> elliott: in Crawl? they're like weaker hill giants, so quite damaging in melee range
20:36:06 <elliott> I don't have ranged weapons
20:36:19 <ais523> that is typically a bad idea when playing Crawl
20:36:21 <elliott> well, apart from the Minor Destruction ability
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20:36:26 <ais523> pick up stones or darts or something
20:36:38 <ais523> or minor destruction it, there's no cost but MP and it'll train up invocations
20:36:50 <elliott> my understanding is that things train whether or not you use them nowadays
20:37:09 <elliott> anyway, I used darts for a while but they were so tedious and rarely helped me, and monqy said he never bothered with them, so i stopped
20:37:38 <ais523> they're basically only useful against specific monsters (things that are powerful but kitable)
20:38:24 <elliott> _You feel yourself slow down. It was a potion of slowing.
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20:43:48 <nortti> http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-17894176
20:47:57 * elliott wonders why nortti is reading UK news.
20:49:11 <ais523> elliott: the BBC is a pretty reliable news website compared to pretty much all the US ones, so quite a few US people read it
20:49:19 <elliott> yes, but that's a UK news item
20:49:29 <elliott> as opposed to being international news reported on in the UK
20:49:38 <ais523> elliott: that story's made news in the US too
20:49:45 <ais523> despite being related to the UK
20:49:53 <elliott> nonsense, the UK exists in a vacuum
20:50:22 <elliott> hmm, I wonder where the secret door is
20:50:32 <nortti> elliott: found by osnews
20:54:41 <elliott> _The orc sings a few bars from the Orcish anthem.
20:56:01 <oerjan> the lyrics being "KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL"
20:56:18 <nortti> "Free data sharing will destroy existing economics, both in entertainment and in software development."
20:57:00 <nortti> "Stop spreading the evil infected ideas about sharing and start patenting."
20:57:56 <nortti> I wonder what drugs that guy does
21:06:45 <elliott> Pikel says, "I just want to get paid!"
21:08:46 <elliott> _The orc priest sings a few bars from the Orcish anthem.
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21:31:20 <ais523> a slightly weird question: is there such a thing as a loopback for ALSA (i.e. which connects the speakers to the microphone internally)?
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22:13:35 <elliott> hmm, I've now played 100 games of Crawl in 9 days
22:17:36 <fizzie> ais523: ISTR there's an "aloop" 'soundcard' that's just a soundcard that provides two full-duplex devices; whatever you play into device 0 is what's recorded if you record from device 1, and vice versa.
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22:59:54 <shachaf> That reminds me I ought to back to doing Agda.
23:00:12 <shachaf> Remember that level where you have to do a proof to continue?
23:00:16 <shachaf> I got stuck at that level. :-(
23:01:26 <elliott> shachaf: Agda? More like Unicodegda.
23:02:04 <kmc> lisp? more like parentheses
23:02:22 <kmc> the most hardcore lisp ninjas use only parentheses
23:02:40 <shachaf> Parenheses? More like parethetheth
23:03:04 <kmc> parentheses? more like 8=======D
23:03:26 <elliott> kmc: I'd be that happy too if I had a nose like that.
23:04:46 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: leaving).
23:07:21 <shachaf> I wonder whether Agda would make a good computer game.
23:09:51 <kmc> yeah, i want someone to make an RPG where the combat system is a proof system
23:09:54 <kmc> maybe more like Coq's
23:10:02 <kmc> as you level up you learn powerful spells like "eauto"
23:10:05 <kmc> and "crush"
23:10:27 -!- nortti has joined.
23:10:59 <shachaf> kmc: Did you see <http://petersobot.com/blog/startups-bands-for-hackers/>? Made me think of you for some reason.
23:11:12 <elliott> didn't even click the link and vomit
23:11:27 <shachaf> elliott: Nothing much to be gained from clicking it.
23:11:36 <shachaf> Well, maybe you like vomit.
23:11:44 <elliott> i need a whole floor of vomit ideally
23:11:52 <elliott> oh man, an "ALL THE THINGS" meme!!!
23:12:01 <elliott> now i have more vomit than i needed
23:12:23 -!- kmc has set topic: <elliott> now i have more vomit than i needed | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
23:12:29 <shachaf> Does it make you use Emacs?
23:12:32 <kmc> shachaf: no
23:12:35 <elliott> shachaf: No, but you'll want too.
23:12:42 <kmc> i mainly used coqide
23:12:43 <elliott> Proof General is really, really nice (with a few config tweaks).
23:12:48 <kmc> i,i cock-eyed
23:12:50 <shachaf> elliott: Because of something to do with Coq, or just in general?
23:12:56 <elliott> shachaf: Because of Proof General.
23:13:06 <elliott> Set electric stop mode and three window mode, and it's lovely.
23:13:09 <shachaf> whoa, man, I have it in APT.
23:13:17 <elliott> As you write lines of the proof and hit the . to terminate them, it automatically advances the proof.
23:13:21 <shachaf> Wait, I have Agda in APT too.
23:13:23 <elliott> And you get a window with all your assumptions and goals.
23:13:36 <elliott> And you can print out the definitions of terms, etc. in a side window by giving commands inside your source buffer.
23:13:44 <elliott> It's a really nice mode of interaction.
23:14:05 <elliott> Lemme dig up the config tweaks I used for you.
23:14:32 <shachaf> How can you simultaneously claim that it's a really nice mode of interaction and that it uses Emacs?
23:15:01 <shachaf> whoa, man, coq is a 50MB download?
23:15:47 <elliott> shachaf: OK, it was just electric mode and three window mode.
23:16:29 <elliott> (setq proof-electric-terminator-enable t)
23:16:31 <elliott> (setq proof-three-window-enable t)
23:16:47 <elliott> Then you just load a .v file, and start writing a proof (the two windows appear once you type the first .).
23:17:13 <elliott> and get the definition of foo in one of the windows.
23:17:19 <elliott> Then you can just erase that Print foo. line and do something else instead.
23:17:21 <shachaf> What's a good way to get started with Coq?
23:17:32 <shachaf> I could look at the website, I guess.
23:17:39 <shachaf> kmc has this one website he always tells people about.
23:17:41 <elliott> Maybe read CPDT or something?
23:18:12 <elliott> http://adam.chlipala.net/cpdt/
23:18:37 <elliott> Note that it's apparently targeting Coq 8.4 beta now, so some things might be broken...
23:19:19 <elliott> shachaf: Oh, and the two most important keys to remember when using Proof General in that mode I've both forgotten.
23:19:35 <elliott> But one of them retracts the last command, and one of them moves the commit stuff to the point.
23:19:47 <elliott> shachaf: (Because you can't modify stuff you've committed with the .)
23:19:49 <shachaf> C-x C-c and Escape-Meta-Alt-Control-Shift.
23:19:51 <elliott> So you use those to go back in time and change things.
23:22:07 <shachaf> OK, I guess I'll go back to Agda for a bit.
23:22:16 <shachaf> elliott: What's a good definition for evenness?
23:22:35 <elliott> Z is even, S (S n) is even iff n even.
23:22:48 <elliott> data Even : Nat -> * where ZEven : Even Z; SEven : Even n -> Even (S (S n))
23:23:01 <elliott> That's not Agda syntax. The Agda part is up to you.
23:23:18 <elliott> (Alternatively, Z is even, and S n is even if n is odd.)
23:23:30 <shachaf> I have Even : ℕ → Set ; Even 0 = ⊤ ; Even 1 = ⊥ ; Even (suc (suc n)) = Even n
23:24:40 <elliott> That's not how you do propositions.
23:24:40 <shachaf> copumpkin suggested that definition.
23:24:49 <shachaf> But he also suggested that it was a bad one.
23:24:50 <elliott> I mean, it's easier to decide that verison.
23:25:03 <elliott> shachaf: You want to be doing propositions by defining ADTs.
23:25:14 <elliott> Encode the information in the data instead of just flattening things to booleans.
23:25:22 <elliott> Because it means you can extract useful information out of proofs.
23:25:42 <elliott> the method you're using doesn't work if the proposition is not decidable.
23:25:59 <shachaf> Someone also mentioned something like data Even : Nat -> Set where Something : (k : Nat) -> Even (k + k)
23:26:31 <shachaf> That doesn't look like a boolean to me.
23:26:48 <shachaf> (Well, I guess it's a bit like a boolean.)
23:29:32 <elliott> shachaf: By boolean, I mean flattening everything to true or false.
23:30:01 <elliott> A proof of (Even n) should tell me *why* n is even, and be sufficient, on its own, to convince me that n is Even, without having to know that Even is defined so that (Even m) is true iff m is even.
23:30:17 <elliott> That's basically the whole idea of constructivism: the proof of a proposition demonstrates why it's true.
23:30:35 <elliott> That's also useful because it means you avoid boolean blindness: think of it like if vs. pattern matching.
23:30:41 <elliott> if null xs then Nothing else Just (head xs)
23:30:48 <elliott> case xs of [] -> Nothing; x:_ -> Just (head xs)
23:31:00 <elliott> With the former, you know that null xs is true iff x is [].
23:31:10 <elliott> But you don't get a demonstration that it *is* back, just confirmation.
23:31:21 <elliott> You can't use the derived knowledge directly in your computation.
23:31:34 <elliott> shachaf: Anyway, that (+) definition sounds more awkward than the one I gave.
23:31:49 <shachaf> Not for the thing I'm proving!
23:32:03 <shachaf> ...Because I'm proving /2-+-/2 : (n : ℕ) → (En : Even n) → n ≡ (/2 n En + /2 n En)
23:32:40 <elliott> (/2 n En + /2 n En) is a confusing thing to read.
23:32:47 <elliott> Anyway, it's OK to design your proposition type around what you're proving.
23:32:51 <shachaf> What's a better way to write it?
23:32:58 <elliott> shachaf: I don't know what it means.
23:33:01 <shachaf> elliott: Except what I'm going to be proving isn't this.
23:33:16 <shachaf> It means that if n is even, n/2 + n/2 = n
23:33:26 <elliott> Right. Don't call a prefix function /2. :(
23:34:17 <shachaf> Anyway, what general-purpose definition of evenness ought I use?
23:34:43 <elliott> 00:22 <elliott> data Even : Nat -> * where ZEven : Even Z; SEven : Even n -> Even (S (S n))
23:35:03 <elliott> The (+) one might also work, but I think this one is easier to get information out of.
23:35:16 <shachaf> I think you're trying to trick me.
23:35:25 <shachaf> "SEven" is not an even number at all!!!!!!
23:35:33 <kmc> shachaf: Software Foundations?
23:35:47 <kmc> is the thing i tell people to read to learn about coq / pl / proofs
23:36:26 <kmc> haven't read it yet
23:36:38 <elliott> Wow, Software Foundations is an all-star cast.
23:36:43 <kmc> i know, right?
23:36:48 <elliott> Or at least http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/sf/ is.
23:37:13 <elliott> I like how every Coq book looks the same.
23:37:20 <elliott> Because they're all written with coqdoc.
23:37:33 <kmc> why is there no tool named coqblock
23:37:36 <shachaf> kmc: What I was looking for was http://as305.dyndns.org/aps/problem , I think.
23:37:44 <kmc> that thing is fun too
23:37:55 <kmc> i did not get very far
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23:38:01 <elliott> Why didn't you tell me about that?
23:38:22 <elliott> http://as305.dyndns.org/aps/problem/viewa/315 haha what a cheat
23:38:49 <elliott> http://as305.dyndns.org/aps/problem/view/53 fucking awesome
23:38:52 <elliott> ais523: http://as305.dyndns.org/aps/problem/view/53
23:39:07 <shachaf> HEY EVERYBODY LOOK AT ME http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/boss.html
23:39:47 <kmc> congrats shachaf
23:40:17 <elliott> Doesn't he know how to spell Sha Chaf?
23:40:24 <kmc> it should be in hebrew
23:41:14 <ais523> elliott: that's… anagolf, but in Coq?
23:41:42 <elliott> ais523: and it uses a verifier of your program, rather than a fixed number of example inputs
23:41:49 <elliott> so basically you have to golf a proof
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